House of R - ‘The Fantastic Four: First Steps’ Deep Dive

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Mal and Jo travel across the multiverse to Earth-828 to break down the latest entry in the MCU, ‘The Fantastic Four: First Steps’! They dive deep into each character, discuss the visuals and the story, and break down what it all means going forward. (00:00) Intro(08:18) Opening Snapshot(18:05) Box Office(23:58) State of the MCU(28:21) How We Got Here(48:49) Reed Richards(01:22:02) Sue Storm(01:31:43) Ben Grimm(01:39:06) Johnny Storm(01:41:15) Silver Surfer(01:49:57) Galactus(01:53:24) Franklin Richards(01:55:21) Stinger Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna RobinsonProducers: Carlos Chiriboga and Jonathan FriasSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. and Rip are back in a new series. Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehous or Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. Hello, welcome back to you, House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson.

today, a little worse for wear after San Diego Comic-Con. It's the beautiful, luminous, full of mucus, Mallory Rubin. Hello, Mallory. Are you the protector of this pod? Yes. I'm not going to check with anyone. I'm just going to say yes. Yes.

Sue Storm and I are both ready to protect and defend when we need to. Mallory Rubin here is shining brighter than this silver surfer ever could. here I talk to you a bit belatedly about the Fantastic Four First Steps that a lot has been going on. We were at Comic Con all weekend. Mallory contracted the bubonic plague. And I've got some health stuff going on too, which you can check out on social media if you want to. Because of various health things on this podcast, I just want to say we're going to be banking some recordings. We're going to try to get out our Stranger Things season two rewatch episode that we're really excited.

about. We're going to try to put a couple Alien Earth episodes in the tank, and then I'm to be out for a little while. So just sort of like, you won't hear from me as regularly, but if you hear from me and you're like, hey, I thought she was supposed to be resting, we're trying to sort of bank a few episodes, so, you know, to have them ready to go on the feed. But that is the, that is the play. Don't look at me like that with that face smell. I heard it. I just love you so much. I love you. I love you so much. You're the best. I love you. Thank you to everyone. I did post about some stuff that's going out of my life on social media.

Thank you to everyone. Incredibly kind words and support you guys are the best. Thank you so much. And that is what I'm saying. Something that I'm really excited to do when I get back, though, is that I'm head down to Los Angeles to see my beautiful Mallory woman in person. And on, hopefully she will be over the play by then. Yes.

My vow, my pledge to you is unlike on today's podcast to not be coughing every seven words when I see you in a few weeks. Promises, promises. Sunday August 24th. Yes. 4 p.m. at the Los Felis 3, Mallory and I have the pleasure, the honor, the joy of showing you Mad Max Fury Road as part of American Cinema. As part of American Cinema. So that is Sunday 4 o'clock. We're doing Mad Max Fury Road. We're so excited. Witness us, shiny and chrome. As Chrome is a silver surfer, please do you get your tickets in advance because, like, we just want to sell this puppy out, like right off the bat. So it's limited capacity in the Los Felis 3. So I just want to make sure that you guys get your tickets when you can. This will be our grand reunion after my absence. So, you know, if you want to witness us crying into each other's arms, that's something you could do for the low, low price of like 15 bucks a ticket and 10 bucks if you're a member, which you should be. I am. I love being.

a member of the American Cinema Tech, incredible organization, Los Angeles. So that is what we were doing. The next day at 10 o'clock in the evening, the Midnight Boys, Pugh, Poo, Poo! Poo! Are showing Blade. Sick. Very exciting.

Very exciting. Blood Rave with the Midnight Boys. Oh, my God. So you can mute your tickets for both of those showings. Sunday, 24th, 4 p.m. Madd. Mays. Very, Monday, the 25th, 10 p.m. Blade at the American Cinema Tech website. So get your tickets now

before they are gone. It was so fun to see so many of you. Oh my God, at Comic-Con? Comic-Con. It was like a genuine joy for us and for the Midnight Boys. We all had such a blast. Like, so many of you came to the panel and the meet-up, it was just a treat and a joy, and it makes us so happy. So, like,

the prospect of getting to see more of you in mere weeks. And whichever one of you gave Mallory the plague list, and it was worth it. It was worth it. It was fine. I was thinking about this. I'm texting you in our to this exact week last year is when I had COVID for the first time, which I probably got at the Ring Reverse Live event. And then mere months prior, I got really sick at Southby.

So I just think I need to start preemptively, like, planning on a sick day or two after going to a live event or a convention. And that's, you know what? It's worth it. Worth it, Bob, as they say on billions. I was going to say, next, I suggested to you next Comic Con that you're a cosplay be bubble boy. Yeah, good idea. If you come as bubble boy, then we can protect you from the elements. What about Purell person? Oh, it's like your superhero outfit?

We'll get you a cape with like a pee on it. Yeah. Purell at all times. Just dripping with goo. Love that. No for ads. Listen, you two could be watching this experience as well as listening to it. Yeah, she wouldn't want to miss that. Because we're on video.

on Spotify, on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. You can follow us on social, Ringervverse, on Instagram, on TikTok, et cetera, et cetera. You can see clips from our Comic-Con weekend, the podcast that we recorded down there, et cetera, et cetera.

And you can email us, always, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Follow the pod. If you aren't already, you should do that. And here's your spoiler warning for today as we discussed, the Fantastic Four First Steps, medium dive, let's say. So that Mallory survives the end of this podcast.

Anything today in the MCU and Comics Canon is on the table. So Thunderbolts, if you skipped it, tough for you. I'm going to talk about it. We missed out. Great movie. It's a great movie. You know, Daredevil, Iron Heart, Spoiler Alert, Mephisto's here. All these things are on the table today as we talk about it.

And we might also do, there's some natural, I think, places to compare this film to Superman. So if you haven't seen the James Gunn Superman, I would just lightly throw a spoiler warning for that on the table as well. Do you think that's fair, Mallory Rubin? I was told that the entire pod today would be a crypto herbie discussion. If that's not the case, then I'll be returning to my warm bath. Okay. To ease my aching joints. Okay, quick, quick moral question.

quandary for you, trolley problem for you. Yeah. You're on a trolley. No, don't do this to me. I can't. Really? Towards Herbie on one track and crypto on the other. What do you save? At the end of the day, neither of them needs me to save them, you know? Superman's busy.

Crypto's a super dog. Crypto probably has to go save Superman. Crypto is tied to the tracks with Cryptonibes. rope. This is quite rude of you to do. I would say take me. Unplugged. Take me and save them both. You're throw yourself in front of the trolley to stop it with your body. Yeah. I think disease ridden. Save, spare them both. Take me. You know, crypto's a super dog, so he can handle a lot. Herbie, we could probably rebuild. But I'd rather spare them both. I'd rather spare them both. At the peacemaker panel at Comic

there was a pretty protracted and painful discussion about Eagley versus crypto to characters who I absolutely cherish and adore. And the discussion of which of them could kill the other, which I thought was unkind. Wow. Unkind. Okay. Especially because the answer seemed very conclusive from James Gutt's perspective. It was like farewell Eagley. Oh.

Which I don't like to think about. Okay. Well, hashtag Eagley lives. Let's go now to our Fantastic Four First Steps, opening Snapchat. You don't usually do this, but because I entertained myself writing out the cast list last night, I'm just going to read it out to you as I put it on the dock last night. This film stars Peter Pascal as Reed Richards slash Mr. Fantastic and I have written Stretchy Smart. Vanessa Kirby is Sue Storm slash Invisible Woman and I wrote Invisible, Pregnant, Force Fields, Future Foundation, Mole Man Pacifier.

Okay. Moulman spin-off, when? When, exactly. Evan Moss backrack as Ben Grim slash the Thing, Rocky, Strong, Beard, Yancey Street. Listen. I know this was supposed to be a very quick run through and I'll stop after this.

The thing with the beard can get it? Yes. Thank you. Thank you for knowing me so well that you can anticipate the comment. You know I love a bearded man. I'm a vibe. You're just very important.

You're beloved husband item. I felt it. Okay. Yeah. Joe Quinn is Johnny Storm slash the human torch. Copper Tone Babe, colon, fucks, flies, philologist, flamio hot man. That's the thing. Very good.

For Joe Quinn. Julia Garner as Shalabal, Silver Surfer. I wrote Sparkle Tits, but in a feminist way. Yes. Yes. Herald phases through things was a mom, I guess. This was also on the Sparkle Tits front, the first thing you texted me after you saw the movie. Silver Surfer, who I've already mentioned five times, is the star of this movie for me.

This is a Silver Surfer movie, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, when does Julia Gartner not absolutely... Julia Garner never misses, but she crushed this. I thought she was so good. Okay. Sarah Niles as Lynn Nichols, and she is listed as the CEO of the Future Foundation. I guess? I don't know why she was acting as like a personal assistant.

and she's the CEO of the Future Foundation. But Sarah Niles, who you might remember from F1 earlier this summer or from Ted Lassau, is definitely in this movie. Kind of. Anyway. Not the only part in the movie where you wonder, you know, what else was there that didn't make the final cut? But at the end of the day, we're going to get to Natasha Leo. Better than some completely cut parts.

Malcovich, we miss you. Okay. Mark Gattis is here as Ted Gilbert. I have nothing for him. It's fine. Wigwatch, when, but that's okay. Natasha Leon is Rachel Rosman, and I wrote a nice Jewish school teacher

because there was not much more to her character, though I wish there had been. Paul Walter Hauser is Harvey Elder slash Moleman. His people are called molloids. Yeah. And I have a lot of questions about that. My only question is, again, when are we getting a moleman spit off?

I thought he was amazing. Oh, yeah. I mean, Paul, okay, what's so funny is at the, you know, I didn't see Fantastic Four until yesterday. We'll talk about that in a second. So all weekend at Comic-Con, I was just sort of like dodging people trying to talk to me about Fantastic Four. We had a very excited, bad baby, rush from the Fantastic Four screening to our meet and greet on Thursday night. And he ran up to me.

He did not enjoy the movie. That's fine. People feel however they want to feel about the movie. But he sort of clutched at me and was like, what they did to the Moleman was a war crime. And I watched the movie and I said, I don't understand what he meant by that. I thought what they did to the moleman was comedic genius. And I quite enjoyed it. To each their own.

Ralph Inison as Galactus, big hangary. Matthew Wood is Herbie, which stands for Humanoid Experimental Robot B-type, Integrated Electronics. I wrote Nanny, Chef, et cetera, et cetera. And last one at least, Robert Toney Jr. as Dr. Doom, Hood Stuff, Go. Mask stuff go. The mask in the hand. Well, the mask is off. The mask is off.

The mask in the hand. It's just a delightful little touch. It has been confirmed that that was indeed Robert Downey Jr. Yeah. So that... The Russo's filming the... The Russo's filmed it on the set of Doomsday, but that was Downey. So my question to you, Mallory, is how much did you think it cost them to film?

Great question. A shot of his hooded shoulder. I would imagine a pretty penny. How do you think that that day rate compared to... four-year-old Franklin Richards and what he's charging. Well, he's got the power cosmic, so expensive, is what I would say. Who made this film? This film was directed by Matt Shackman, who directed a gazillion episodes of Always Sunny,

a few episodes of Game of Thrones, and, of course, Wanda Mission. The screenplay is by Deep Breath Now, Josh Friedman, Eric Pearson, Jeff Kaplan, and Ian Springer. Eric Pearson, really the go-to guy for Marvel. We said this in Thunderbolt. It is still true. Story by Eric Pierce and Jeff Kaplan, Ian Springer, Catwood, produced by Kevin Feigy, and I just want to shout out music by the goat Michael Jekino. Actually, I'm not going to make you sing.

You're sick. I'll go, Fantastic Four. That's the, I think the sad news for me and the great news for literally everyone listening to this podcast today is that for months I had been threatening to basically sing the entire pod to the tune of Fantastic Four. Oh, but now I can't. Save yourself. Joanna, this is the 37th MCU movie.

But here we are, phase six. Thank you for that reckoning. Okay, anything you want to say about any of the fine folks I listed here, obviously we will circle back to a few of them. But anything you want to say on the sort of like, who made this front or any of the talent involved? I thought the cast was dynamite, honestly. I really enjoyed the performances.

I thought that they, I have a kind of a, I mean, we can save this for more of the overall big picture takeaways or just do it now. But I thought, you know, obviously, like we talked about this from the first trailer onward, one of the crucial elements that they needed to hit, especially because they leaned into it so heavily in the marketing. And the movie was like the family element. And I think I believed that these people knew each other and had history with each other and had relationships with each other will obviously hit.

all of them in more detail. I thought Shackman did a great job. We obviously had a great personal enthusiasm for Wanda Vision, and so I think we were both very excited to see what he would do with this movie. I should say just as kind of like a blanket caveat that normally when we do our film pods, we both try to see the movie multiple times. I have only seen it once because I got sick. And the one time I saw it was now nine days ago.

I saw Skywinter screening. Monday of last week. And so I was really looking forward to seeing it again when we got back to from Comic Con. So I'm sad that I didn't get to, I always like to, you know, the first time you view a movie, you're just like processing so much. So I was really looking forward to sitting with it for a few days and then going back and seeing it again. But, you know, overall, I had a great time. And I'm excited to, I'm excited to dive in.

I'm a big fan of the film. I'll save my further opening thoughts for that. official prompt. But yeah, I thought Shackman did really well. What about you? So, okay, we should say we're a little later to this, them usually are, obviously, because of various factors. But this is a

divisive film inside of the Ringer family, right? Is it? I feel like Big Pick is on an island with this one, unless you're about to reveal to me that you hated the movie, which I support you always, if so. Yes. Andy Greenwald and Damon Lindelof Loft. Loved it.

In. Midnight Boys. loved it. You loved it. I think I am like on a little, uh, to use a Damon Little Offsus slash Michael Jekinoism on a slight raft, like a little bit off of Love Island,

which is where you guys are living. But not on like hate shore. Right. With Amanda and Sean. I'm with like a strong like not adoration, uh, the way that has hit some people. I will say,

uh, probably the conditions that I watch this movie. in were not, did not prime me to fall in love with it as hard as you guys did because I had like a week of people sort of giving me their opinions without me being able to sort of see it first. So that was all sort of rattling around in my brain. I watched it as I texted you yesterday in a completely empty movie theater in the middle of the day yesterday because it was the first opportunity I had to go to go see it. And thanks to Alaska Airlines. Thanks so much for surrounding me last week.

But so I imagine seeing it in a packed theater of enthusiastic people, you know, would have pride me to have a better time. And I was just talking, our colleague, Zach Lowe, for reasons note only to him, asked me to come on his basketball podcast to talk about TV. What a crossover event. Talk about TV comedies. We were talking about comedies and like sort of what's happening with TV comedies. And there's this idea of like a little bit like moving away from the.

communal experience. Comedies are communal shared experience. And when you're watching something by yourself or just like with a couple people or whatever, it's not the same as when you're in a packed theater of people laughing. There's like something, there's a momentum to that that carries you. So I really do think that like probably if I had seen this in a full theater with people who were like having a ball, I would have had a better time. And I might be with you with an egregious British accent and a fake tan on Love Island. But I am slightly out to sleep. But that's okay. I still really, I liked it. I just didn't love it. And I'm excited to see it again.

A lot of people saw this movie. Let's talk about the box office, right? So 118 million, first weekend, 218 million, a global. So we're already at about 75% of what the previous, biggest Fantastic Four film did in the mid-2000s. Far ahead of Thunderbolts, which was a sort of weaker 74 million, anti-captured America, 89 million. But we are well below, of course. the juggernaut that was Deadpool and Wolverine, which was 211 million at the end of July last year.

That's okay. Same global opening as Superman. The budget for this movie, however, was $200 million. So we've got a little ways to go before we were like this is, you know, if there's like a steep fall off the cliff, which I don't think they'll be because the word of mouth is pretty good. But like if there's a steep fall off the cliff, this is not a, you know, a guarantee success.

But we were off to an incredible, dare I say, fantastic. Fantastic start. I think, I anticipate this movie having a, a long tail of strong box office showings. Like, it does feel like there's a, uh, uh, quite a lot of enthusiasm around it and, you know, reviews are good. Word of mouth is good. There's, unlike actually the last few blockbusters where there was something massive looming

in the like immediate next subsequent weekend or, you know, two weekends after at most. It's like, I feel like this movie has now a little bit more room to, uh, dominate. though obviously it's been an incredible blockbuster summer and there's a lot of stuff still out there. But yeah, I would anticipate that this continued to do quite well at the box office. We'll see. It's interesting to watch. It's interesting to note that it is the last superhero movie until Supergirl.

That's wild, dude. A year. It's crazy. I want to shout out months ago, I subscribed to some newsletters from The Anchler and Sean McNulty does like an incredible weekly box office breakdown with like all these interesting like demographics and stuff like that. It's been really helpful to like helping me understand a bit more forensically the box office. So I just want to shout that out because I like sort of shamelessly lift some of his stats and I don't want to do that outside of my source. So Sean McNulty from the Inclair recommend subscribing to his sort of weekly box office report.

But I thought the demographic breakdown of the audience, 70% male, 30% female over the weekend. And I think they really want this to be like a film for the whole family. It's a PG-13 movie. But like it is, you know, it's not, there's not even a drop of blood during childbirth. So like we did get an email from a bad baby and we've got a few others throughout. But I didn't write this one down necessarily. But she talked about taking her youngest kiddo and like really enjoying watching the film with her youngest kiddo next to her sort of snuggled up, eating all the snacks, cheering on the good guys, like having great time. Like I do think this is quite a family-friendly Marvel outing.

And as we've seen, you know, you like to talk about how well the live action adaptations of animation films have done this year. Like, family-friendly films have been some of the biggest successes at the box office just because you have, like, multiple tickets that you're buying. And it's just sort of like, why would we leave the house for something? Well, to do something with the kids outside the house is a good reason to leave. And so, like, family-friendly stuff has been doing really, really well at the box office. So this could have, if it expands beyond the like 70% white dudes under 35, which is who they hit on the first weekend, into sort of the more, the wider family demographic going forward, this could have quite long legs, long stretchy, long stretchy, greedy legs to it. How many of those families are buying the $80? Galactus popcorn bucket?

Great question. Are you planning to buy the Galactus popcorn bucket? I don't think so. Don't roll it out. I don't think so. Thus far, you only have the sandworm bucket, right? Yes. I think that I, while I am quite intrigued by the popcorn bucket boom. Yeah. And track it with interest. I have, you've recently been in my home. You already knew this from just various photos of various shelves, but you've seen it with your own eyes. I'd say I've maxed out like shelf room for would you say it? New types of merch.

I think I'm going to continue to lean into my established passions on that front. But I don't know. The popcorn buckets are ample. They're large, especially the Galactus ones. So like I don't know that I can introduce this as a new collecting hobby. Do you feel like if your wine rack wasn't currently full of Legos? And lightsaber. And lightsapers, you might be able to convert it to a popcorn bucket display case?

So we, Adam and I have talked about, like, whether we should just actually formally tear that down and turn it into something else. Because, you know, as you know, we're more of a, our wines are in the fridge family. And so we're not using that space for its intended purpose just to stack weapons in space. I would like it to be like more of our, like our, your armory. Fictional universe armory formally, yeah. which kind of is anyway, but really lean into that. You could, like, mount those, like, various sabers and swords on the wall. Yeah, exactly.

Medieval way. I love it. Okay. Critical response. As you mentioned, it's, like, pretty positive overall. 8692 split on Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic 64, or Cinema Score A-minus. I think it's really interesting, you know, you talked a bit about your experience in the theater. I know that you and Charles and the rest of the folks in your buying theater had a really good time.

I, as I mentioned, was the only one in my theater, but I had a fine time, fun, fine time of the movies. But I just think it's really interesting. We asked this question about Thunderbolts when we covered Thunderbolts. Like, are we grading on a curve? We really like Thunderbolts. We would not call it a success, nor would Kevin Feigey call it a success. He was like, hey, man, we made a good movie. Nobody went to go see it.

What a bummer. But I just do think it's interesting when you think about this year and you think about Superman and Fantastic Four to fairly sizable hits, we would say, in the superhero genre. Thunderbolts a movie we really liked that maybe we'll have a second life in home viewing or something like that. Or if people grow to love the Thunderbolts as they show up in future Avengers crossovers, go back and watch Thunderbolts. But all three of them really seem like they're trying to meet a moment of disenfranchised,

mental, emotional distress. These are quite optimistic or emphasis on community or supporting, showing up for each other. But it's okay to be vulnerable, that it's okay to be kind, that it's okay to be all these sort of things and sort of stronger together. And now, of course, these movies are in development for years, so they can't always know what it will be like in our culture the exact moment that they hit. But I know for Superman, which has had more time to just date in the cultural conversation, I know that a lot of people have just been really connecting to this, like, idea of kindness being punk rock, that this, you know, kindness being your superpower is this like punk rock sort of.

idea and Fantastic Four being so unabashedly a sentimental family film. And then Thunderbolts, if you had seen it, you would know, about mental wellness and support. You know, like we solve everything with a group hug, essentially. Like that is really interesting to me that those films, two or three at least, are hitting with audiences. I think obviously, like undeniably, it's impossible to separate the assessment of and perception of a Marvel movie's success at this point, this deep into the MCU from its box office showing. Undeniable. But that movie was such a creative success. It really was.

That like, I don't know how it is anything but a win. And I find it sort of lament. I think it's good that Fagie's honest about the fact that they wanted it to perform better. And, you know, we're hoping it would and it didn't. But if the takeaway from that movie is this didn't work, that's, I think, really lamentable and a huge bummer because it was so conceptually assured. And I think such a win in terms of like a really core, I mean, this movie, I think, tapped into a lot of core. long-running key aspects and strands of successful Marvel movie DNA, genre specificity, particular visual style, that like ability to look at one frame and know what movie it is,

etc. The chemistry of the cast. You know, the, like, the ability inside of Thundness is not a Thuddered multiple-pot, but we both really love that. movie. So, like, you know, the, I think the, the ability for, for Thunderbolts to just surprise us with character pairings is like such a aspect of the, like, I think one of the most crucial aspects of MCU success across our now nearly two decades of consuming this thing together. And like, whether the bulk of the people you pulled on the streets would understand now what the asterisk meant, I don't know that that should matter more than the fact that the movie was good.

I think obviously, ideally, like, to be able to say both things at a checkmark next to them. And, like, that's probably, you know, an ongoing question. I think that's obviously also part of the conversation around this movie on the other side is, like, the no, I don't think this is the only reason to celebrate Fantastic Four First Steps. I don't think this is the only reason that the movie worked. But I do think it's, like, undeniable that the no home. Mark Marvel movie is a logline that will appeal to the masses. Unquestionably.

So that's what we would talk about next. It's sort of this idea of how we got here. And as you mentioned, we're in Phase 6. Welcome to Phase 6. Just wild. Phase 6 seemed so far away for so long. How? I know.

Here we are. Here we are. You did the math over the weekend, and we realized that I am coming up on my four-year anniversary at the ringer. Four years since I texted you and said, do you want Venom to be here? First, ring or pod. And I said, no, thank you.

Okay, anyway. Yeah, so this is the no homework required effort from Marvel, the anti-Thunderbolts. And, like, again, we love Thunderbolts. Loved. If you're listening to this and you didn't watch Thunderbolts in the theater, like, throw it on Disney Plus tonight and watch it. It's like, it's really good.

And I'm like, I'm with you in that, like, I don't want the message to be, we need to do fewer things like Thunderbolts. I want, we need more things like Thunderbolts, really. But we're in a different world, in this like no homework vein. We're in a different universe entirely. We're in 828, not 616. And despite the Thunderbolts post-credit,

which has a little connective tissue to Fantastic Four, credits finish rolling on this, one more post-credit stinger, but we are nowhere near leaving 8-28. So whatever that is at the end of Thunderbolts is something that we will have to learn more about in Avengers Dumesday, I suppose. Yeah.

Which I think is interesting. And unlike Captain Marvel, I mean, not that this as much matters, but we're way back in time. But I don't know if that time makes a difference if we're talking about different universes. So I sort of went down that path and was like maybe actually it doesn't matter that it's in the 60s. I think it does, though, because I think it, I mean, yeah, maybe not. Because to your point, if you're in a different universe, you could convince us that that was any point in time. and the specificity of it just was about the continuity versus the time. But I think to be able to give us some visual touch points on the interior design front or like the fashion front that feel recognizable to us from the 60s, like, you know, much like we're like the TVA, it looks like madmen.

But then also when you pan wide in Earth 828s, New York, that's a different world quite clear. Lee and that was one of the things, obviously, from the first images and trailers that we were so, like, gripped by that, that retro future visual and vibe. And I loved seeing that borne out in full across the whole movie. Visually, this movie is a 10 out of 10 success. Barring an occasional CGI baby, 10 out of 10 success. Like, really good stuff. We just had to adore a lot of CGI babies this year. After Squid Game, I was like, this baby looks fucking great.

I don't know. The Squid Game Baby was so disorienting and uncanny Valley to me, and this baby was not. But possibly because of Squid Game. There's plenty of real babies in this. But when a baby is being held by a CGI confection, like the thing, odds are that baby is not a real baby. Okay. This is not a typical origin story, but we get a lengthy yet accelerated montageified version of your origins of the Richard Storm Grimm super team via the Ted Gilbert TV special.

What did you make of this section? And is this where you want to talk about John Malkovich being cut out of the movies? Because one of his apes is here, but he is not. Where do you want to, what do you think? What did you think about this approach to, we're not giving you a straightforward origin story of the Fantastic Four? This is, I think, one of the really smart decisions that helped make the movie work for people. We'll talk a little bit more in a second about the prior history of the Fantastic Four on film. Spoiler, it was all terrible until this point. Terrible.

All capital letters underlined, bold, highlighted, make it bounce with one of those new iPhone effects. Like, those movies are awful. Oh, okay. They are. And I think that some of the decision to not do, there are some things I like about those movies, namely the first two, Chris Evans as Johnny Storm and in the 2015. Now I'm jumping ahead. But I do think the Johnny's, like Chris Evans is Johnny and then Michael B. Jordan is Johnny.

Pretty fun. A lot of the rest of all three of those movies. I like you on Griffiths as Reed Richards. Like I do like that. Oh, you don't. Wow. You don't. No.

I'm shocked by that. Interesting. Okay. I think that because we, a couple things. One, because we have seen Fantastic Four Origin stories in films, period. Just seen it a lot. It wouldn't have made sense to do it.

Two, because we have seen it in movies that are, I think, widely consider maybe some people have affection for them, certainly. Jomey loves, has a great and deep connection to the 05 and 07 movies because they were like formative comic book superhero movies for him. Certainly, there's enthusiasm for the films

from some people. But to run back like similar how did the Fantastic Four become the Fantastic Four beats in this movie when people like don't want to see that again in part because those movies weren't good. What a bit of a mistake. But also I think this is just like become a part of the later stages of the MCU. Like, you know, Spider-Man Homecoming. We have a great moment like when you can do what I do and you don't.

And then the bad things happen. They happen because of you. And we like understand Peter's history is what we know it to be. but we didn't watch that movie and that was better. So I think this was really smart to, like, give us a drip and a drop and some glimpses of who they were before through this idea of, like, the global celebration on the anniversary four years into them being the fantastic four of the protectors of this Earth, Earth 828, without making us watch all of that. And we still get to feel like, you know, Reed's guilt is very present, like failures of my own, you know, talking about what went wrong in space. It's incorporated in a few ways, but that's not the bull.

in the movie. I think that was really smart. And it also helps establish them quickly where they need to be as like the celebrities of this earth, the heroes of this earth. Everybody is walking around, like wanting, including Johnny wanting the thing to shout clobber in time and they're dressed up and cosplay and these people are famous and they're adored. And so like, of course it would be their responsibility to figure out how to beat Galactus. I thought this was like a great choice to not give us an origin story again, but to give us the newsreel incorporation of what happened. I agree that it was a better choice. And I think it's pretty clear that they, I mean, obviously, they filmed the entire, you know,

sequence with Red Ghosts and all of that and basically cut it down into little clips to incorporate inside of this montage. And that's when we lost Malcovic. And that was sort of like a late in the day choice that they made. But there was initially a whole set piece, you know, adventure. mission for them at the start of the movie. I think overall, I like the concept. I'm not sure it was, for me, perfectly executed. I think the pacing of this movie, I think I always felt like I was sort of running to catch up with this movie a bit in terms of the pacing. And I didn't feel like I had,

it had some of the things that I love in Marvel movies. We talk about so all the time, like, you know, peanut butter sandwiches or whatever it is. There were, there were. these moments of conversation between like, let's say, Ben and Reed, et cetera, et cetera. But I just didn't feel like we had a moment to catch our breath. And part of that is I think they wanted to give us like a really zippy fun movie. But I don't know that I felt I left the, I leave this movie not feeling the deep emotional investment I would really like to feel in these characters, except for the Silver Surfer. I genuinely am like emotionally invested in Shalabal in a way that I am not and wanted to be in the core family as much as I wanted to be.

Like the bantering back and forth, that presentation of family that you really feel is there, I almost feel like they kind of cheat coded it in a certain way. And maybe that's just because I, you know, as we talked about recently, like, we both really respond to TV because we like more time to marinate and maybe like I don't mind a long run time. And Marvel is really trying to keep it, you know, short and zippy. But some of the montage vacation of this movie left me feeling a bit breathless as I was trying to catch up if that makes sense. Yeah, I think like, definitely. I think the early in the film, for me, the counterweights worked really well. Like, you know, opening with, I don't know, maybe this sounds silly to say. But like, a bathroom scene between a married couple is just like really intimate.

That was great. I thought that was really good. Yeah. It's like soupies with the door open. Yeah. Right? And talks to read from the toilet. And like, that makes me believe that they.

they've been in each other's lives for a really long time. Like, I thought things like that were really effective. Of course, I would have watched an eight-hour version of this life. Yeah, no question. I would have loved that. But, yeah, I didn't necessarily, with respect to John Malkovich, who, of course, it would have been wonderful to see as Red Ghost. Kind of like a little bit of an extra fuck you to have the Red Ghost and his Super

apes in the cartoon and the post-credit stinger. That was brutal. To have those super eight apes there, but not Malikovych. And I can understand why, because, like, if you're not going to do the whole full sequence and it's almost just distracting to, like, show us Malcovich, but not actually use Malkovich. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah, for sure.

But I think, like, I didn't, I felt when I saw the news that he had been cut, I was like, oh, weird. Should I be alarmed? What level? Right, right. But I don't know. Then when I watched the movie, it felt like that maybe. that maybe was a good decision to keep it tight and keep it focused and not like waylay us with a four to five minute battle against John Malkovich that would help us establish how they functioned as a team, what their powers were going to look like in the movie, how this earth celebrated their achievements, etc.

But ultimately wouldn't have necessarily felt like it gave us that in a way other than extra runtime and a little bit of a like, wait, where are we going in the story? So I didn't mind, you know, I feel bad that Malkovich got cut out of the film, but I didn't mind ultimately that that wasn't there. We do just really want to quickly mention, and I'm sure people already know this, but like the Fantastic Four, Marvel's first family is such a, they're such an important character set for the history of the company's brand, really launched everything that we've come to know about Marvel. So Marvel getting the rights back to some of these Fox properties, teasing it a bit in Deadpool and Wolverine, letting us know that the X-Men movies are coming. But this is really, they're sort of like, you know, Fygie, similar to, you know, the efforts around Spider-Man, Fagie being like, these characters are in good hands with us. This is what we want to do with these characters. And I would say, you know, most people really feel like they landed it. I do have some quibbles myself when we'll get to them.

We get to character-specific conversation. But like the reverence that they're showing, you know, they show all their characters and stuff like that. But I think the stakes feel higher around Marvel's First Family, this idea of like, will people even give a shit about the Fantastic Four after, as you mentioned, three films of various degrees of success and, and. care and enjoyment from people. You know, there are some contemporary runs of Fantastic Four that have been his, but I wouldn't say, like, Fantastic Four comic books are flying off the shelf, you know, here in the most modern era of comic bookery. And so will people care about the Fantastic Four?

Opening weekend says, yeah, they care. Or they really enjoyed watching the cast on their promo tour or something. Something worked in a way that it didn't click for Thunderbolts. And I think that that is really exciting. I just do want to shout out a few comic books that people might want to pick up and look at, obviously. We could be here all day talking about Fantastic Four comments. This is a deeply incomplete list. But I want to say that if you look at Fantastic Four, 1961, the first Fantastic Four number one,

Stanley, Jack Kirby, who get a sort of pseudo cameos inside of this movie. We've got two young comic book writers shown in this movie at timely comics, a Lee and Kirby moment inside of this movie. But this is Marvel's First Family versus the Moleman. So having the Moleman here in this movie is like, we're going back to the start. We're going back to the 60s. And we're going back to Moleman and that's where we're starting. But then Fantastic 4, No. 48, 4950, the Galactus trilogy is really where the Fantastic Four established its identity. So you've got the coming of Galactus and the arrival of a different Silver Surfer, but the Silver Surfer.

In number 49, Galactus, he's here. And number 50, Galactus, he defeated and Silver Surfer helped. So Waltling Mo Man, Galactus, Silver Surfer being the Herald and then helping defeat Galactus, that's all inside of this movie. So that's like just the beginning, the core, 1961, Fantastic Four. I want to mention Fantastic 4 volume 3, number 67 through 70, and then number 500. 2003 written by Mark Wade, art by Mike Werenjo, Carl Kessel, and Paul Mounce. This is Doom v. Fantastic 4, and Mark Wade, who's one of my favorite comic book writers, like, leaps and bounds.

I love Mark Wade. Really, really, really good, sharp writing, and then this idea of focus on family. And it's always been core to the Fantastic 4 obvious. but Doom, who we will see encounter the Fantastic Four a bit more meaningfully in the future of the MCU, but, like, Doom really messing with the Fantastic Four and their conceptions of self and their mental health and all these other things inside of the storyline. And then finding solace and success inside of digging back into that family dynamic is something that is, of course, very integral to this movie. And then Fantastic Four, Life Story, 2021, written by Mark. Mark Russell art by Sean Isaacs, or Isaac C, is really leans into, it's 2021, but it's how the 1960s in the Cold War really shaped the Fantastic Four.

So I think it's interesting to have Fantastic Four comics that were written, conceived of, executed in 1961, the origins, that's important. But to write a book in 2021 to say, okay, what, how are the Fantastic Four is really a product of the 1960s? What does the idea of innovation technology, red scare, all these other things, what do they have to do with arms race, et cetera, have to do with the core ideas of the Fantastic Four? And so obviously Marvel's decision to set this in a retrofuturistic 1960s for their film, they're like, yeah, we agree that this is core to the identity of the Fantastic Four is the setting of the 1960s, maybe looking at the 2005, 2007, 2015 films, and their sort of failure to execute that ideology along with the Fantastic Four. I don't hate the 2005 Fantastic Four.

I want to say. And I do think that, like, the bar was just in a different place, I think. Sure. I've just seen a lot, far worse comic book movies since the original Fantastic Four movies. So I think it's, like, competent. I don't think it's great. I think it's competent in a way that some of the, like, let's say, Sony offerings have been, like, wildly incompetent.

Do you know what I mean? So that's sort of where I think. It's interesting. I think, like, revisiting them because we have the, yes, we've had a lot of, yes, we've had lot of bad super movies, but we've had so many great ones. Excellent ones. Yeah, that's true. To me, they feel, I think, even more of a letdown than they did at the time. Again, I think there are redeemable aspects inside of them and things to like.

But when you run through that early comics history and just in general, you know, seeing the Kirby quote during the credits in this movie, if you look at my characters, you will find me. It was such a lovely touch to include and so emotional. Made me like teary-eyed in the theater. Especially since the MCU has leaned in so hard for so long on Stan Lee as like, you know, the father of all this. And we should honor Stanley's contributions. But to honor Jack Kirby in this way outside of like what Thor Ragnarok did, et cetera, et cetera,

is, you know, really. Yeah, it was lovely. And, like, I think, you know, because of that long history in the comics world and how much these characters in various different runs and books mean to so many comics lovers, like, I think, obviously, just to be clear, if, like, a single person loves one thing in a movie's bad, that sucks. You don't have to have, like, vast swaths of superfans for something to be received in a, that's a success or failure in a different way. but the inability to make the Fantastic Four work on screen to this point, I don't think we can, like, overstate that as a thing hanging over this era of comic book movies. Like, they just haven't been able to make. I think many Fantastic Four fans would say the best Fantastic Four movie before this one was the incredible. No one of the problems, yeah.

Right? So it's just been this missing element in our superhero movie Super Boom. I think especially when you have Michael Jekino here and Franklin Richards being such a key part of this in his like Jack Jack way, The Incredibles influence, which of course were influenced by The Fantastic Four. But I just felt like it was like we were in quite the cultural feedback loop here. No question. Undeniably so. I think certainly like many of the people, moviegoers in 2000, who are going to see the movie, have never read a Fantastic Four comic. Many of them have and have picked up every issue dating back to the early 60s. I think certainly some portion of the audience coming to first steps will have a lot of

familiarity with the more modern canon, like from the Ultimates universe. and I think that if you've read those runs or have any familiarity with them, it's difficult in a way I liked to not be thinking about what Hickman has done with the characters while watching this movie, to not be thinking about Reed Richards, The Maker or Council of Reeds. I think especially given that the trolley problem in this movie is like, my first, family or the world, thinking about a read, what the decisions that a Reed Richards makes when his reality is in peril or what does a council of Reed's look like when they have to make a decision to be away from their families to give up that kind of like tether to humanity.

I think that's another reason why like I felt the, why the family poll worked a little bit more for me maybe? Like, I just, I'm like, oh, I, I feel like this, um, uh, I loved that moment. Now I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but like, I loved the moment where, you know, Sue was like, but you thought it. Oh yeah. But you thought it. I thought that was great. Like, what goes through this guy's mind? Like, you love your family, but how are you not thinking about all of these other things all the time? Fascinating. Yes. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zep bound terseptide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity.

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Or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems, lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zep bound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptatide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take it if allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had a multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic

reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-9-9-9 or visit Zepbounce.lily.com. But this is almost a read I don't recognize this Reed Richards, and it's not the end of the world because Marvel has certainly, we talked about this and we talked about the trailer breakdown. You were just like, you were like wondering if the Reed Richards we were going to get was going to be a comics-accurate, sort of like arrogant asshole genius Reed Richards.

And we got an incredibly soft anxious Reed Richards. And I'm not, I love a soft anxious guy. Like, don't get me wrong. I'm all about it. And I had sort of posited to you that like they wouldn't go that direction because we have Tony Stark and we have Stephen Strange who was essentially just Tony Stark in a cape. And like, do we want another Tony Stark? But just with like graying temples, like can we have all of that energy together?

Does no. Honestly. But like, I have, read is my biggest question coming out of this movie. And Pedro Pescal is actually my biggest question coming out of this movie. And so, you know I love a soft Pedro Pescal father figure role. We have talked about this in the middle orion. We have talked about this in The Last of Us. So like, this is something like they knew what they were doing, what they wanted when they casted Pedro Pescal here.

Matt Shackman has talked about it. how in his pitch deck for this movie, he included a photo of him with his baby daughter, that his ideas of what it means to be a father and sort of a softer version of that is key to his understanding of unlocking the Fantastic Four. This is what they decide to do. But it's not the read that we've ever seen on the page,

I would argue, unless I'm forgetting some obscure version. And again, Marvel has done this before with various characters that they have, sort of reframe their characterization a bit, and then that's now what everyone thinks of. When they think of that character, they think of the MCU version. That's fine. Compa characters should bend and change and stuff like that. But you need to bend and stretch your way into something that, for me, works a bit better than Reed works at the center of this movie.

Like, Sue Storm is the, like, pillar of this movie. And contrary to popular belief, we here at House of Art do. love female characters. So like, I love that for us. But I don't need, I don't know that I needed read to be soft buttered

quite so much in order for Sue to show up with such strength. Does that make sense to you? I don't know. Of course, yeah. I agree. I think Sue, Vanessa Kirby is the lead of the film.

No question. Well, and Julia Garvey. Sure, yes. we were going to hit this when we got to read and we're about to. But it's, I think, good to talk about for a second here because it really connects to what you just said. I think, like, I know you wanted to talk about like that, that, like, arrogance, like that, like, kind of like reads a little bit of an asshole element. And, like, I think that for me, Reed felt like a great candid. it to carry forward that what Tony Stark brought to the MCU in a number of different respects.

But I don't necessarily think your points about the, I think it's really interesting, like, about the softer version of Reed. I am interested on the Pedro Pascal front, like whether he now feels like he needs to take a break from shows or movies where his character has to decide my kid or the world. It's like, it's kind of an amazing confluence of stories. But I think like, to me, the key with Reed's arrogance, to use that word in a pretty like kind of blanket way. And I think where this allows a lot of room, whether it's in the comics or on the screen, for interpretations. And, uh, a, uh, a, different renderings that all feel like true to some essence, but distinct, is less about

needing necessarily to channel that in some sort of like sarcastic way or dickish, short of sharp-edged way and more like the burden of being the smartest man in the world has to be felt. And I think this read achieved that. Like, his insecurity and anxiety, I thought were an interesting spin on that. Like, it's not sheer bravado, I'll solve it. It's, oh, my God, I have to be the one to solve it. And the idea that his superpower could also be this debilitating burden and that that pressure, especially when the problem of the world connects so deeply to the problem of his family,

I thought was really interesting. So, yeah, I liked that. and I liked that as a way into like, how does hubris manifest? What do you think you can solve? You know, whether or not you're like seeing Reed with bridges and you're like, oh, boy, when Reed has a bridge, it doesn't always go well. It's not necessarily relevant. I think it's like when he can't help, like literally can't help, even when the emotion

is that deep in the connection to the people in the problem set, that's sincere. But look at it as like, well, now it's time to speak. sketched this out with my stretchy arms on the chalkboard, what does that do to a person? And, like, I think the character allowed us to ask that, start asking that question and considering it in a way that felt effective to me as, like, a starting point. I do, I'm certainly not challenging what you're saying. I think for there were many people, this is similar to what Sean was saying. Like, I think that there are definitely going to be people who are like, it's not really my read. I liked it and I'm really interested to see what they do moving forward. I think in part because, like,

if this is the read we keep getting in Doomsday and Secret Wars beyond, I'll be interested in watching that, but also because I think they've introduced enough elements here in this preliminary film to open a possibility set that we could go a number of different ways with this character. Read looking at Franklin. Now, I'm really jumping ahead. When we do a medium dive, we go, who knows what happens. Read looking at Franklin and saying, I don't want you to be like me. There's something wrong with me always has been.

Really walloped me and I thought it was great. It's an incredibly good idea inside of this movie. I think it's a really, really good idea. I do want to stay on Reed Corner for a bit and talk about Petter Pescal because I had a literal nightmare about this last night. And I want to make it clear that like I had a nightmare that like Petro Pascall and I were best friends and I had to then go on a podcast and talk some shit on him and it made me feel really guilty.

We're not friends. we've barely ever met so like don't even worry about it but and I actually have not listened to David and Andy or Sean and Amanda or The Man Night Boy is talking death because I kind of wanted to like not like show up and like regurgitate other people's talking points so I know the top line

Statler and Waldorf hated it loved it like how people feel but I don't I'm I'm I didn't want to like the Sean clip talking about read on on the socials this question of like was Peter Pascal miscast, which is like the aforementioned social clip. Like I think that and speaking of the

Angler, my dear friend Kitty Rich over at the Ancler had a piece about Pedro Pescal as like one of our only current movie stars and she was sort of lining up the case for it. And with love and respect to her, I kind of disagree with a lot of points because I don't think there should be a huge

delineation between TV star and film star. But there's something about Petapescal and then a TV world. And not every TV world because it didn't hit this way with Narcos, but with Game of Thrones and with The Mandalorian and with Lassoas, undeniable. Even with Mandelorian, we're just using

his voice. Charisma bomb. Compelling. One of the best things we've ever seen can make me cry so easily. I'm on the edge of my seat. We feel the lack of him in the Lassova season two. We are devastated in Game of Thrones when he leads Game of Thrones. Like just

electric. And I feel like we have a strong enough case now when we line up. Gladiator 2, materialist, Eddington, and this film for me to say, I'm not feeling that in any of these movies. Gladiator 2, I was like, wow, what a fucking waste of Petro Pascal? Like, did they not know what they had? But then, like, by the time you get to a materialist, you're like, well, they had to know. He's the third lead of this movie.

And, like, it's just not what he's capable of inside of this movie. So is he the kind of performer where, though he's the kind of performer where, though he He is unlike so many other of his contemporaries, just compulsively electric, but that doesn't translate to every single performance. He's not a chameleon. He's not like a Brad Pitt where he can do like a million different things

and they're all like dazzling, however you feel about Brad Pitt, but he does like a million different things. He does a certain thing very well, And I don't think these projects, Materialist, Eddington, whatever, Eddington, a better case, but are tapping into it,

the way that I want to feel when I see Petro Pescal. And so I'm like, is he not a movie star? Is he a TV star? He's certainly a social media star. Like, you and I have, like, our Instagram Reels are just, like, wall to wall,

Petter Pascal. And every single one of those clips is insanely watchable. So, like, this guy has it. He has it. But as Reed, I was like, I'm not feeling this at all. I am not on the edge of my seat when he is here.

And I don't know that he's really selling smartest man. Like when you talk about this idea of being the smartest man in the multiverse. Yeah. And burdened by that anxious because of that responsibility. Then I think of to, I mean, get out your calendar, get out your checklist and check it off. I think about a character like Daniel Faraday and lost, right? That is like an anxious. I'm the only one who knows what's going on here

on a sort of like galactic level kind of person. That's a character I can like really understand and get behind the anxiety that comes with the arrogance that comes with a huge mistake you made that comes with the damage that you cause with that mistake. Like that kind of character, and again, if no one watched the last year like, what the fuck are you talking about doing it?

But anyway, like... But it's after Thunderbolts. That archetype. That archetype works for me. That archetype is great. great. I can see the execution of that. I don't know that Pedro really knocked out of the park here. And I'm worried about Reed then being a pillar that they're going to rest on in a major way for the future. If you're like Sue Storm, you know, if they feel like maybe actually it's Sue Storm and they just don't want to say it because of weird insults, then like, fine.

I think Vanessa Kirby made a case for Sue Storm as a really compelling watchable leader. she gets the big damn hero speech she gets the big damn hero action moment you know like we did get some emails from listeners that have some questions about like how centered her role is around her identity as a mother and you know some people view that as a positive

some people view that is a negative um etc etc we can talk about that a little bit more but I do think when it comes to like feeling that from Reed feeling him as the sort of gravitational force in the movie that is you and I both agree that that did not go to him

which is not the end of the world, but I just, I don't know, I don't have the weird thing that Van has about Petro Pascal. I think Petro Pascal is like deeply sexy and charming and smart and great at what he does. And I absolutely adore him. I'm just waiting for a movie version of that to blow my socks off the way that I have experienced watching him on television. So that's where I am. I have not seen materialists or Eddington. And so I cannot comment. I have commented on multiple podcasts about Gladiator 2.

But I put that all at the feet of other people. All at the sandaled feet of other people. But you agree with me that he wasn't used in Gladiator 2. Definitely. And that was like one of the real shames. of the movie. I find him, and I know you do too. Like, just so utterly magnetic.

And, you know, the established House of Arcannon, Pedro Pascal and Vanessa Kirby, two of the hottest people alive. So watching those a married couple, like, gently stroking each other's arms in bed. Very compelling to me. Cheap bone to cheekbone? That's great.

Do you think they go through a lot of pillows, slicing them with their various cheekbones and jaws? possible. I'm just cutting them to ribbon. A helpful thing when you're introducing at long last to the MCU, a character who, for eons, decades on end, fans have been discussing with each other and making jokes about, well, Reed Richard's stretchy powers,

like, what's he doing with his dick or his fingers or his tongue? It's very, you know, helpful to believe that the, characters in this movie have a exciting and vibrant sex life with each other. Malarvan, I would be, I would just be letting all of our listeners down if I didn't ask you to follow up and elaborate on your thoughts about Mr. Fantastic and a force field wielding invisible woman. I mean, it just must be a new adventure every day. I'm thrilled for them both.

It seems, you know, I did like the, I thought on the one hand, it's obviously presented in a very tender, delicate, serious scene, like when Sue reveals she's pregnant and reads like we were trying for years. Yeah. Part of what's implied there, of course, not implied, actively stated as we were trying for years, you know? So that's great. What can't read stretch?

Follow a question. Follow question. When we get to the birth scene inside of the Excelsior, right? And he's like, we got to tie you down. you need some, you know, gravity. You need to be able to, like, leverage is something that he talks about a lot inside of this movie. You know, you need to be able to, like, bear it out as you're giving birth. Yes, a big movie for Archimedes.

Do you think that they ever, you know, I know that they have some trauma, obviously, around the Excelsior, but do you think they ever took it out on, like, a joy ride to see what Zero G would do? Yeah, pleasure. Yeah, for the various, like, physics. leverage, limbs, stretching, sort of possibilities of their nighttime. No question. You know, Reed, obviously, he has a healthy ego. I have no doubt that at some point when he was stretching his dick, he asked you to turn

invisible so that he could just look at it and admire it. What can't those two get up to? In terms of... So upset. You know, the MCU after dark. You're one of one, Mallory, and you're one. Mallory Rueh, one of one. Thanks.

Thanks. As are you, my beloved, my darling. In terms of the smartest man in the world part, I, I guess like, the sheer mass of his achievement is so clear in the movie. Now, I think that, like, it's totally, it makes complete sense to say, and that actually, like, isn't sufficient. Like, it's not enough to just say, look at all this stuff that he inviourable. invented and then that tells us that he's the smartest. It's the old like, you know, show don't tell, like let's feel it more. I think

that makes sense. I felt it, first of all, of course, we have like, the faster than I travel and the excelsior and all of these things. And I thought that was like really nicely balanced across the inside of the fantastic four where like, you know,

they all have their things that they're doing. And, you know, I love something like, we'll get to Johnny and Ben. more, but like, you know, obviously everything that Sue is doing with the Future Foundation and like Johnny's, uh, to kind of like desperation to crack the language puzzle because he's like, I want to do something too. And then you're like, you know, you're an astronaut. Like, they're all geniuses, right? Yeah. Um, the fact that like, read, uh, is talking about dimensional planes and parallel earths and like has this advanced

understanding in the 60s of the multiverse was I thought obviously very deliberate just in terms of where we are in the story, but also, you know, another way to kind of signal to us the depth of his scientific, not only invention, but like inquiry, which is certainly an important thing with the character, the bridges. On that front, like I meant to say this earlier, but I think I'll come back to how that manifested with reading the movie in a second. Like, I did think that the, to your point from earlier about the Thunderbolt Stinger, I don't, I'm not implying everybody felt this way, but I definitely was like, they got me with that. And then this movie, I thought, effectively subverted my expectations where like, I just

felt like, okay, either this earth is going to have to be destroyed. Yeah. Either Galactus wins or something that the Fantastic Fork does causes an incursion. And like, and that might still happen. Could still happen. Or they just are doom takes Franklin and they're heading to find him. How would you feel if we went through all of this to save 8 to 8,8, and then it got destroyed in Avengers Doomsday, like, early on or otherwise?

I can't say I have a ton of a... I'd be sad, but, like, I don't know that I developed a... Yeah, you spend time with many other characters. You love Mo Man. That's why I would mourn subterranean. And Rachel, certainly. But, like, okay, part of the... The smartest man in the world thing to me in the movie was not just like faster than light travel.

It's like the entire world has somehow been convinced. This is how you know it's the 60s and they don't have TikTok yet. To power down. Reed is still like lights on. Everyone else's lights off, read his lights on because he's like, and this builds toward a moment where he's like, I thought it was very sweet when he's like, I'm not going to look anymore, I'm going to let you tell me who you are to Franklin, but like, until the very last second, he's like, I have to scan, I have to look, I have to solve, I have to hunt, this anxiety

that is permeating not only about are they going to save the world, but like what might be wrong with my child? I thought this was very effectively rendered in like a multifaceted way. On the one hand, and I was going to save this from, we talked about, Sue is. a mom, which I do think we should talk about more later. But like, on the one hand, I think just like, uh, read and Sue being really worried about their kid. Obviously, the specifics in this film are not relatable to other people. Um, Galactus wanting to take your child so that his hunger can be stated at last, not relatable. But this like, is everything going to change question? Or like, what might be different about my kid question? Like, to take people with super,

worries and then give them normal relatable worries, I found like really winning. And then for read inside of that to be like, I'm not just like, I'm having a kind of like mental, emotional, spiritual, existential relationship to the idea of fatherhood. I cannot for a moment turn off my scientific brain. I have to think about my own kid as another equation. I thought was a worked for me as a way to show us that Mr. Fantastic Reed Richards can't turn it off. And that sometimes that leads to like, in part because he thinks he can't.

He's like, if I don't, who will figure it out? And so sometimes that leads to like a breakthrough. And sometimes that leads to like abject catastrophe. And I think it would have been nice for us as an audience to see more wins from Reed inside of this movie if we're to buy. you know, like, it's fine, it's fine to have some failures. We love a failure. But like, there are so many losses of execution of ideas for Reed, so many like fuckups that I'm like, I need to, I need to counterbalance that with some wins. Well, and we didn't talk about,

we didn't pot about Superman together, but, you know, a movie that I, I loved, as you know, so this was not how I actually liked this part of it, but certainly a complaint that people had about Superman was like, Superman got his ass kicked a lot. It's interesting. I think this kind of connects to your earlier point as well of just a little bit of like a through line of the moment of like showing us some of our characters in a little bit more of a vulnerable position.

I found that like really compelling in Superman. But yeah, it's like different. No question. And I think it's like we could get a movie where read is like I'm solving it all the time. We could get a movie where read is like I feel like I have to solve it all the time, but I'm not. I'm open.

I think this obviously does connect to Sue and the fact that Sue is the one who really cracks it in a number of different respects, which I thought was like, I don't know, I guess I'm keeping in mind when we talk about this movie and in general the grading on a curve thing both inside of the MCU

compared to the other movies in this character set. But I will say part of what I really don't like about the prior films is the portrayal of Sue, which is like... This is night and day. Brutal. I would take this. So welcome.

I would take this any day. Why is it a Silver Surfer being like fucking 80% Sue Storm? Like, but like my wedding, just like... So rough. Yeah, I're really right about that. Okay. Okay. I do want to get to this email we got from our listener Esmeh about Reed and some of his decisions because I, a moment.

Again, I did not read any of our listener emails until I saw the movie, but I did see an email we got that. It was said, like, in defense of Ree's decision too, and then it like cut off. That was the subject. line and I was like, huh. And then I was watching the movie and he starts giving the press conference. And you're like, it's got to be that. Oh, it's definitely this. Anyways, let me just say before you even read the email, this is not one I have a defense for. It's not. Horrible. Okay. Anyway, so Esme says, like so many when I first watched this, I was baffled by why he would tell these people, this huge bargain, they declined. Why does the

world need this info? Also, the rest of the team just lets him deliver this news. Why would they jump in to stop him? But upon second viewing, I realized how transparent, the fantastic for are to their world. These are people who for the last four plus years have been living every single moment in the public eye news programs, magazine articles, ad campaigns, cartoons, comic books, educational program, et cetera, people making bets about Sue's pregnancy, Ben and Johnny being on the data game, which was a deleted scene that they put on Marvel Socials recently, etc. Somebody has to do a piece on how arguably the Fantastic Four are the first parissocial team of all the MCU heroes, regardless of living in a seemingly pre-internet world. On top of this,

they are diplomatic leaders. Sue is a key part of the Future Foundation, which in the film looks like their world's version of the UN. I guess that they even give press conferences after every villain they defeat. They invite the world into their home and feel the world is their family and vice versa. The world being part of their family is something they mentioned,

especially when Sue introduces Franklin to the angry crowd later on. So of course, Reed would share this news about Galactus, even though his face clearly telegraphs, he's worried to share this and worried about how to defeat Galactus. Of course, the team would think the world would sympathize with them, or at least the world wouldn't react as poorly as they did.

A2A world is family, and family should understand this decision. And then, Asme, again, is part of a much longer email, but when she's talking about this idea of the world agreeing to turn off the lights and everyone has to do it in order for this to work, and then it winds up not being necessary. Anyway, but anyway, as I says, it further shows how the world really loves the Fantastic Four. The fact that the entire world is merely in mere days, mobilize their resources and labor for this plan without much question. and so soon after Galactus plus Franklin's situation is staggering, including roping in frenemy Harvey moleman. It shows how different A28 is from 616, Maine MZU with A28 being a semi-utopia. Again, maybe that is lazy or poor writing or a convenient plot piece, but I'm choosing to be more optimistic about it. So this idea that the whole world would, I mean, our world would never fucking do this.

But the idea that they live in a world where they've demilitarized everyone, but Latvaria, I guess. Lovaria, empty seat. Empty C from Lovaria. That was great. I love the pan and the empty Loviris. Really good. But like the entire world has been convinced to demilitarize. Like this super family and their super heroic deeds have impressed the world so much of the world is like, okay, sure, we'll turn off the lights for you. Something, again, our deeply divided world would never.

There's not a single person, not even I believe, fucking Taylor Swift could get the world to turn off all of their devices for. however long, right? Right. But I do like this idea that like 828 and 1965 is a utopian world of tomorrow. You know, we put our trust in you sort of thing, which is a dangerous prospect, but an interesting one, you know? Great email, fascinating to think about this. It's funny.

I think the point about the distinctions between 828 and our world are, you know, very clearly rendered and present. I did think that there's like a commentary at play, though, that no matter how different the worlds are, they're the same, because at the end of the day, people will turn on you in a dime,

no matter how much you've done for them. Like, you know, that was... Yeah, but then one good speech can get them back on your side. True. They're easily swayed the people of Earth 8. Here's my message to read Richards. Keep fucking with your long dick. You're doing great. However, it is okay to lie. It actually is okay to lie. Consider the interests of your family. Consider the interest of omit. There are things you can omit. Yeah. Like, filibuster a little. First of all, you could just be like we're tired.

We make alexus, we haven't figured out how to defeat him. Spin doctorate, right? Like, come back. You know, we've, we're gone to. for a long time. We had the baby in space. I'd like to remind you guys that I'm the smartest man in the world. And so I was able to track the Silver Tits energy signal and confirm what happened to those other planets and validate that this threat was real. And then let me tell you something, we fucking found Galactus. We did some boots on the ground research.

We did some space boots on the ground research. And now we're back to craft the rest. of our plan. Yeah. Gotta go change a NADB. We'll see you later. End of. That's it.

But I do a little bit like this idea that they were like, I mean, I don't even think Steve Rogers would be this naive, but that it was a naive move. That it was, that he naively tells them and expects because historically they have been, expect that they'll be on his side. I think it was, it struck me as part that for sure. And then part, Reed Richards is not accustomed to failing. And so he almost couldn't have. help but be like, oh, we didn't.

Like, it almost just came out because he's like, I've never, I usually stand here and I tell you what great I am. That would ring more true for me if, if like his biggest failure hadn't already happened, which was the incident that led to his entire family being, you know, mutated by space. Is it a failure or this is my real team Johnny? It's like pretty cool to get to be a super powered being. All right. Let's move forward so we can get to Johnny, who. We have not spent any time with.

Anything you want to say about Argy Herbie, which I wanted to, who I wanted to mention here, under the read umbrella, there was a photo op at San Diego Comic Con to pose with Herbie. How'd that go for you, Mallory? Texted you in real time, a photo where it said reservations closed. Yeah, I don't mean to kick you when you're congested, so I'm sorry. I just thought that everyone should know that you deeply wanted to get a photo of Herbie. You had given me in some specific ways about specific things, but also. in more kind of like holistic fashion.

One piece of advice for Comic-Con, and it was this, get ahead on the planning. If there's something you want to do, make sure you know what time it is. If you need a seat, book it. Herbie, I somehow missed this one. You know, we hit a lot of what we wanted to hit. But the gasp of joy and then the just sling of real eye when I saw that line and then realizing that I could not get into the line, I could not enter the line. You know, I hadn't considered it.

Unlike Reed Richards, who says in this movie, I don't dream, I don't wonder. I invite the worst possible thing into my head. I had not considered this possibility. And so I was frankly floored by it in real time and texted you in deep distress. I thought Herbie was great. You know, we had already seen, obviously, like, a very, like, ample portion of this family cooking dinner scene with, making the sauce and everything, but I still found it, even though we'd seen so much. It's just, like, so sweet and charming in the movie. I thought Herbie was really cute. I did not like

seeing him in harm's way in the climax of the film. I was, this classic on-brand malibuship, but I was like, I mean, mostly frankly, because you know Franklin Richards, like, one of the most powerful beings in the history of Marvel, like, Franklin's going to make it out of the movie. But I was not so sure about Herbie, and so I was deeply distressed. One of the best single best touches in the film Is the recurring through line of Johnny scratching Herbie's head Like he's a pup A little pup or a little kitty

I'm really excited to talk about Johnny Like I thought that was just so sweet and so charming I thought you were going to say when Herbie is doing I don't know A 2A's version of Itsy Bitsy Spider for Franklin Like before Galactus shows up Herbie's just like above Franklin Just doing like little claw

of itsy-bitsy spider's up. The itsy-bitsy spider went up the water spout. See, your singing voice is fine. Okay, let's talk about, let's talk about Sue. I do want to get to Ben and Johnny, so let's talk about Sue for a bit. Yeah. I don't need to go into detail. I will just say we got a very long email from our listener for Ria,

who was just like a little upset by how ghouless the space birth scene was. But even this listener, admits they did not really want to see the blood and various fluids flying around in zero g as as sue is giving birth. But just, just in case you were watching this movie and you're like, wow, I could give birth in zero G. No, you couldn't. No, no, you couldn't.

And it's absolutely insane that the baby comes out and Ben's just like zipzop with some shears and that's it. Like that's not going to go. Sips up. Listen, an episode of the pit, this wasn't a show I've now seen. You have seen the fit. Yeah. Boy, was that good.

You guys did not lie. That was dynamite. On the one hand, the fellas all dive right in, you know? They're not like, oh, blah. Yeah. The female form. Business end first right away. They're ready.

Yeah. You know, on the other hand, perhaps, I did think about this while watching. I was like, are we about to see, like, the placenta, you know, floating around in the middle of the ship. We did not. Can't say I'm surprised by that in the MCU. However, it would have been... I will say, of all the incredible things that Sue Storm accomplishes in this movie,

including literally killing herself in order to shove Galactus into a portal, I would say her ability to do some, like, wordplay quipping about dilation while she's in labor. That was great. No, no, it's... Super human. Super human, Sue. Really, really good. genuinely impressive. Do you think that Sue was, like, pretty sure that in about, I can't remember the time stamps on the movie, about an hour and 15 minutes,

these guys aren't going to be able to figure out how to put a car seat in, so maybe I will make all of that invisible? Oh, I love that. This is a great solution. She's just going to, like, she just invisibleized her fluids. If that were the case, and here's, I do think this would be family-friendly enough. If we're making all of the various fluids that are involved in birth invisible, I wouldn't mind seeing Johnny get, like, hit in the face by a floating invisible placenta or something like that.

What is that? That would be great. And Sue's just like, don't worry about it. Okay. How well does this film do in creating Sue's identity outside of the idea of mom to Sue Storm Sister, Sister, Register for you, wife, register for you, future foundation leader, register for you outside of this montage. We got, I would say the majority of emails we got was about this topic from people.

Tell us. Elisner Payton said, I think the fact that this characterization was clear and Vanessa Kirby was great in the role was what made me feel so disappointed that if I'm remembering correctly. Every single scene she was in in the film was about her being a mother. And so he was absolutely made for me an optimistic MCU enthusiast, a lover of mid-century aesthetics, and retrofutrism, a fan of Pascal, Kirby, and Mossbauer. backerack. Not you, Joe Quinn, I guess. But I was sinking feeling in my stomach ever since folks pointed out in the first trailer that it seems like Sue's pregnancy and motherhood would be a

defining plot point. And I get it. Family is a big part of the fantastic for a dynamic. And motherhood can absolutely be a rich, part of a rich and compelling character arc. But in this case, it felt like that it was the arc. Every time Sue showed up, it was in service of reminding us, she's a mom or soon to be one or set up how others, especially read, we're reacting to that. motherhood is an important part of so many's women's live and hasn't really been explored to the MCU much before. But there was so much potential to explore her leadership, her science background, her relationship with the rest of the team, and all that took a back seat. What do you think of that? Let me say at the start, I want to be careful here to not dispute any of the points in the email.

I think this is a personal read for everybody. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind on this. I actually was worried that I would feel this way about it. not just from the trailers, but as we were going through the movie, a big part of this is that I had no idea that this movie was basically

going to be about Franklin Richards. None. I mean, and it was like, we talked about this. I think for a while, I don't know if they just were like considering keeping this completely a secret and then decided that they should make it part of the TV.

You were marked when Franklin showed up. Yeah. It's like, oh, they're telling us. Like, it's not a mystery. Franklin's in the movie. This is a huge deal to introduce Franklin Richards in the movie. It was maybe like, and maybe this had come out sooner, and I just hadn't seen it until a couple days before.

But it was like a couple days before the movie that I saw a clip that was like, Galactus wants our kid. And I was like, why are they putting this out before the movie? It seems like that's what the movie's going to be about. Right. Okay. So Franklin is the driver of the plot. Galactus wants Franklin to replace him. Franklin is key then to driving the plot. Franklin is key in terms of the emotional journeys of the character. Franklin is the centerpiece of the story. Okay. As we already discussed, Sue is like the lead of the movie. And so mother and child and, and, you know, father and a child is a child is. well, or incredibly centered throughout the entire story.

This made sense to me, and I thought worked well in a story so oriented around family as a strength. And I think in part because of that and also a couple other elements that I'll hit in the second, it didn't tip to me into the area where I was worried it might and felt like more of a like embrace holistically of family as a source of strength, family as a tether to your humanity,

family as an anchor to what's important, family as a source of strength as powerful as your actual superpowers. But on the front of actual superpowers, I thought it was like crucial. And ultimately to me, like, I actually found this like, kind of like inspiring in a way that I was like a little bit

surprised by. like Sue doesn't actually get sidelined at any point. Like she's like... Right, she's on the mission when she's super pregnant. And no one's like, you should stay behind because you're super pregnant. She suits up. She goes to space. She's there at the head of the future foundation.

She's like there when they're discussing everything, when they're crafting, when they're strategizing, when they're figuring out of the plans. Now, to be clear, focusing exclusively on motherhood is wonderful. And I think that is, if that's a choice people make, that their choice to make it is great. I'm not implying otherwise. But I think the fact that this Sue and this movie, is it a movie at the end of the day that a bunch of dudes made and they're like,

mom strength? Yeah. Mom, am I right? It is. Mama bear energy. She can lift a car. We just talked about this with. 28 years later.

That's, I think, clearly true. But, like, I think the fact that she, that Sue is presented to us as a character who does it all, who, like, can basically find, like, work-life balance? I was like, I think that's cool. Like, I don't know. I think, maybe this is, like, over-sharing, but, like, I think about that. I don't have kids. I have a cat who I treat as my human child, but I don't actually have a human child. I think about that a lot, like, kind of like, oh, God, I have so much anxiety about how I would balance all that. And I just, I don't know. Like, I thought this was, like, that part of it actually, like, worked quite well for me. I think also Sue was more assured. This connects to what we were just

talking about with Reed, like presented to us as more confident and more assured that they can find a solution, that they can find a way forward, which I liked. And yeah, again, like I said earlier, I just think the fact that all of the characters in a way are kind of like grappling with the question of how expanding their family is going to impact their life and balancing their joy and their hope and their desire with their anxieties felt like real like that's a thing that people think about and wonder about. So I actually, like I was really concerned about this, but it ended up working for me. I totally recognize why that would not be the case for other people, though.

What about what's your feeling on this, Joe? Yeah, I would say, I would say it like pinged a little for me, but did not put me off. for a lot of the reasons that you mentioned. Yeah. The fact that Sue was just, like, in the mix constantly was really cool to me. I think your idea of, like, this is a family, this is a film that is just, like, orbiting the idea of family would work maybe even a little bit better for me if that were also true for, like, Johnny and Ben. Do you know what I mean? Sue Johnny was the thing I, Sue Johnny and Reed Ben, actually.

are like, for such crucial relationships, I wanted more of both of those. I really agree. And I think Ben, unfortunately, Evan is so good. And I think the effect is really good. Like, I think he's so good. And I think, you know,

that moment from the trailer hit again for me in the movie when you see his reflection. And, you know, the body horror that Josh Trank really leaned into for his horrible fantastic foreign movie. But like this idea of like Ben Grimm as the one member of the team who like, not only was, you know, mutated, but like mutated in a way that is physically apparent to everyone.

Right. For him to look at his own reflection in the TV screen and then to have it go black and then you see his rocky visage in the window, I thought was really good. I love Natasha Leon so much. Pokerface Season 2, shout out. this is just like again to our question of like what was cut out like this just feels so anemic

this this Rachel like 15 minutes like this storyline right insane to me that like at this point I'm like why is this even here like you know that's what a few of the vestigial

remains of stories felt like why are you even here if you're only going to give me this much of you I did find an emotion you know like Ben Grimm's Jewish identity um

is an important part of his character this idea that he goes of the synagogue in this moment, you know, when the silver surfer says, hold your loved ones close, speak the words, you've been afraid to speak, rejoice and celebrate, all of that. And he, like, seeks out Rachel, seeks out the synagogue. I think conceptually and emotionally, that's a great idea. But because it was just built on such, like, matchsticks and straws, it just doesn't wind up hitting.

What does wind up hitting for me with Ben is, like, actually kind of the way that he talks to Sue. Like the Sue, you know, and there have been plot lines in the comics of like Ben Fancy Sue or whatever. But like to me it felt more familial. And I think I was hoping for a little bit more because the baby comes so early in the story. I think I was. Thanks Galactus. Yeah. Thanks so much for like beaming your sure to be fine radiation rays into her pregnant stomach.

But like Ben and Johnny as uncles. Like we get this slapstick thing with the car seat at the end, which is like, A, really funny. B, annoying to me because they're on the clock for an emergency. I was like, this would be so much funnier if it were happening at a point when they, like, aren't literally trying to run towards an emergency to, like, save the day. Well, brought to you by the family that came back from space and said, we didn't. You know. But, like, the three men and a baby or full house, if you prefer, of opportunity.

for Uncle Ben and Uncle Johnny, I feel like was really left on the table, and I would have loved to see more of that opportunity for them. And then for Johnny as like the fuck up younger brother or whatever, and then he has something to prove with this linguistic homework assignment. Like, that's sort of there in a threadbare sense, but I really feel like they could have landed that a bit better to help us understand Johnny's motivation beyond just like Silver Surfer.

She's pretty mysterious and hot, isn't she? I agree. Johnny. I really agree. I really agree. But if we could orient that family, that story around a family concept, rather than like Ben fancies Rachel and Johnny fancies Chalaball and like, don't we all. But like, what does that have to do with your sense of belonging inside of this family or, you know, so if it's going to, if it has to be the singular preoccupation for Sue and for Reed, then I feel like it has to be a singular preoccupation for everyone inside of this. movie. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, definitely. I'll stay on on Ben for a second and then, hey, Johnny. I,

because I'm inclined to agree with you that the racial stuff is like almost such a, it feels like a tease because it's so limited that I did wonder like, yeah, and I'm glad that Natasha Lillian wasn't cut out of the movie, but I was like,

if they were cutting characters and fall out of the movie. But I ultimately landed on, I'm really glad it's here even. I certainly wish it had been more present. But on the, like, because on the family front, but also on the how have we changed front. And these things are inextricable from each other with the Fantastic Four, because while obviously their histories predate their, development of anomalies. There is a, you know, and again, we've already talked about on this Earth, Earth, 828, like, wide-armed, welcoming, embraced by the masses.

But even so, there is an otherness, right? There is, like, a we, something defines us that does not define other people. And so there is a, in the team, in the names, in the literal branding, fucking, these suits, these suits look great. Oh, it's amazing. Color palette. Fantastic. Fantastic. So the reason that I was glad, in addition to the fact that just even a moment with Natasha Leon is a blessing.

Yeah. But I was glad it was here is because Ben is like in his old neighborhood, right? So he's there to pick up the black and white cookies. Yeah, we're on Yancey Street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like, and, you know, he's hamming it up for the kids and lifting the car and all that. That's all great.

But just this, like, that sense, because I actually, like, I think I was glad, ultimately that the movie didn't, because this had been so heavily mined in the prior, deeply flawed films, that the thing is, like, not that I wouldn't have been interested in seeing it, but I think that we, like, we were able to absorb this clarity via, how we watched Ben, like, in that television set scene or just, like, looking at other people existing together. Moving through the streets you used to inhabit, like moving through the shops that you used to just go into as a person, a person who looked like Richie on the bear. And now you feel like you have to wear a hat and a trench coat because of how altered you are. And that makes you feel like you're separate, not only from these three other people who are your family now, in a number of different respects, but from the person you used to be. Like, it gave us access to that aspect of his psyche without having to give us the exact same beats of Ben being like,

change me back. Change me back. You're supposed to be the smartest man in the world. Figure it out. Like, that didn't happen in this movie. I thought that was a good choice. So I would certainly have liked more time with Ben. I thought, um, that was what I craved the most and certainly again the history with him and Reed and the sibling relationship with Johnny and Sue.

I thought Johnny was to me, Sue is the lead of the film which was a surprise to me, but Johnny was the like relief of the movie to me because, and established House of Arcannon

that Joseph Quinn is a legend here. I don't, I'm, we know that. And unlike Peter Pascal was used well in gladiator too, I think. Yes, he was.

Definitely. It's so funny. Rob Mahoney, Rob and I have been, like, tracking very closely this Beatles movie because it's just, like, a shared passion of ours

and Steve, Steve, Steve, Allman, Rob Money, and I basically have a group text that's just about the Beatles movie. I love it. But, like, Rob's, like, comes back for Fantastic Four.

He's like, I'm worried about George. I was like, you cannot, you cannot judge Joe Quinn based on Johnny Storm. Like, you can't. No. Judge him based on Eddie Munson.

Yeah, you've got to go on Stranger Things and then you can talk to me about it. Wait until you see him shred on that guitar. I, um, as I already said, I just think that like Chris Evans and MBJ as Johnny were like the two most, for me, the two most successful parts of those prior movies. So like, Johnny was the character that worked the best in the prior movies. And I didn't know exactly how this Johnny would work. I also thought just like it was a your wig watches your thing but like the wig and like the contact lenses and stuff gave me the most like is this gonna look right anxiety just watching the trailers

but I settled into that pretty quickly I thought that he was great ultimately unsurprisingly he's a delightful performer the look I like Johnny likes women and Johnny likes space and now there's literally like a naked

odd space chick That was good. No notes. I have no notes. I would say I get it. Johnny-like space is like maybe one of the biggest laughs of the movie for me. Genuinely, very funny. Imagine if you'd be watching with other people laughing around you.

What a joy. What a treat. I do think he benefits greatly from his storyline being wrapped up in the Silver Surfer, which I do want to say, I've mentioned it a few times. Julia Garner, a physicality of the Silver Surfer, the way that it's just characters rendered. Surfing the lava. Dude.

Surfing everywhere. Like all like, this is, this is going to be an obnoxious flex, but having just come back from Maui. But like I've spent a lot of time recently staring at surfers, like actual surfers. And I spent hours one night just like, we were just sitting watching the sunset and then watching all these surfers like, you know, on the various breaks. And like, so to watch her nail that physicality to do so much with such an austere and like affects laden character and, you know, how previously in the MCU, I mean, there are exceptions

like Rocket is a great example or Groot is a great example of successful, but there have been many characters in the MCU who have just suffered, many great actors who have suffered under, I would say, once again, like Lee Pace just under a lot of makeup, Chris Eccleston under a lot of makeup, like unable to really sort of come through. I can't believe I gave you that opportunity. Thank you. Failing to really break through. But Julia Garner, and I'm not the world's biggest Ozark fan that has ever existed.

I did love her in the Americans. She's great on Ozark. It's just not my favorite show I've ever to watch. But, like, she's just so good. And the Silver Surfer's arc of, like, I come as, like, a pre-packaged TikTok meme of, I heralds your end, et cetera, et cetera. Like all of that is so good. The softening, the shot of her crouched over her surfboard with Johnny sort of like, you know,

Sistine Chapel-esque sort of reaching up for her with the sun setting behind the earth. That was behind them. A spectacular shot. So I, you know, and then I just found her arc. I mean, the flashback to her, like, and she was a mom on a scientist. and flowy, like, clothing. Like, whatever, that's fine. But, like, just her arc and her showing up

to knock him out of the way and then, like, have her big damn hero moment. Like, that was just, like, great fucking stuff, honestly, from this movie. Johnny and Uncle Johnny being ready to sacrifice himself and then sort of being knocked out of the way for that. Like, I thought that worked. I don't think that, like,

I think if I'm ranking, like, the things that are most successful in this movie, Johnny maybe is not as high for me as he is for you. but I think because he's so associated with the Silver Surfer thing, which was like end-to-end so successful for me, he really benefited from that. And I think like Sue Storm just being sort of like rock solid inside of this movie is so key for it to not feel like it's so soft and fragmented around the edges. So, yeah.

Listen, I won the Ringer superhero draft, I think for a number of reasons, but I think the main reason was when I drafted. in the Cosmic Powers category in the last round, Silver Surfer. So I have always since then and before then had a deep connection to and gratitude for. The Silver Surfer. Truly one of your finest hours. Thank you.

Thank you. I thought, yeah, I was looking in the trade, you know, when Shalabal became Galactus as Harold. I was looking for, are we going to see Norin? Are we going to get Noren Rads somewhere? We didn't. Interesting choice. But I thought everything with the Silver Surfer was awesome. Just like really, really great.

I kind of like couldn't believe how good the effects were. I mean, I really co-assigned what you said about the physicality of the movement. I have not recently had the pleasure of watching actual surfers in Hawaii, but I did recently watch season 300-foot waves. It's the same. It's the same. We've both been watching a lot of surfers in Hawaii. surfing lately. I thought that lava sequence was like just kind of utterly visually arresting

and like it's sort of astonishing. It was so cool. Julia Garner has talked about like both wanting to study the physicality of surfers, but also just sort of like statues, you know what he means? So just like her posture. Yeah. I'm going to think about her posture every time I get on the reverse fly machine at the gym just sort of like every time we use that machine I think about like my posture is going to be so much better. Refined lady, like, whatever. But because we spend so much time hunching. But like her, like, the literal definition of statue-esque,

just sort of like, it was just a pleasure to watch. Yeah. And like just such a, her face was like so expressive through the effects. It was really great. You know, the like silver surfer, whether Norin or Shalabal, like, turning on Galactus. to ultimately align with humanity in the Fintas 4 is not the newest story beat, but I thought it was very effectively rendered here,

because to your point from a couple minutes ago, I just thought the Johnny Shalab Ball stuff was great. Like, it was just so delightful to watch. And it had that ideal mix, I think, of, like, humor and heart. You know, there was a lot of charm. There were some kind of, like, zippy, quippy energy. a lot of the Johnny-centric jokes come from that storyline. Like, you know, he's so desperately trying to, like, figure out the puzzle of the records and the language so that he can, like, decode and understand.

And, like, you know, you get something like the laugh of Ben being like, how he barely has a grasp on the English language. Quite rude. But you're pretty funny. Again, Johnny's very smart. But what would it be like to be, like, really smart? But then you're around those other people? And you're like, do I feel really smart? I got to prove every day that I'm really smart.

So you have the humor, but then you have something like, I don't know, like the words you said to me earlier, what did they mean? It's a blessing. It means it die with yours. Like, it's good. Die with your. That was just, like, gave me a little chill. It's good. It's real good.

And that was lovely and, like, really deeply evocative and more effectively than ultimately glimpsing, like, I'm holding hands with the same. small child on a beach stuff yeah gives us a sense of history that's some real dead dog white flashback honestly

could not have been more dead dog wife flashback yeah but that line like that exchange gave us a sense of like what would it mean to what does it mean to die with yours

but what does it mean to not die with yours what does it mean to sacrifice yourself to preserve their continued life and then be apart from them and then condemn all of these other worlds and then condemn all And like, Johnny playing.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, especially because our main characters are like, obviously, like, facing their version of this problem. Though Franklin can't make the choice for himself, right? They have to, like, make it for him. I thought that, like, you know, Johnny playing the clips like all these, listen, like, listen to what it sounds like all these other places who, like, you condemned. It was just all really good and really effective. And then, you know, again, you have that, like, emotion with just the bad astry of remembering how powerful the Silver Surfer is of, like, takes two seconds to shred every single bridge other than the New York City one.

They're gone. They're obliterated in an instant. You're like, the Silver Surfer is dope. And then, yeah, like Johnny moving to that point of sacrifice, like you said, tell Franklin Uncle Johnny loves him and then, boom, he gets to stay and be an uncle. That moment was like a little unearned. Again, because I would have loved to have seen the Franklin Johnny relationship or the Sue and Johnny relationship. I'm sacrificing myself for my nephew, who I have not really spent that much time with.

But then, like, I was jolted out of that complaint by the Silver Surfer showing up. The time, like, she had just been gone long enough that her return was just sort of like perfectly time for me to be like, oh, yeah, oh, great, you know. Obviously, yes, this is how a lot of the comics end. But, like, it's great to see it. You love to see it. You're like 10 more seconds. Oh, no.

That's an eternity. But here we go. Okay. We don't have much time left. I want to talk about Franklin. Galactus. Well, Galactus. I don't know.

Galactus, he's big. He's hungry. Ralph Innocson is here. I liked him. I liked Ralph Ineson's performance here. But it's still my preference for a Marvel villain is someone I can know. a bit better than it is possible to know a galactus. You know what I mean?

To know a devourer of worlds. A devourer of worlds tends to stand and remove? What's galactus like at home? If you need a Harold, it's hard for us to know you. What's galactus like at home? Oh, man. What's a galactus like without his elemental converter? It's hard to know.

That's a great question. I thought that the, I loved the stretch in space on the ship. I thought that was awesome. I loved, I thought the Ralph Innocent's voice and getting to hear that kind of like signature, gravelly quality was really great. The eyes, like the effect with the eyes was really cool. I liked that a lot. This idea that Galactus is simultaneously eating planets, let's just say it. Galactus eats planets. Sure does. But also it's like, I'd really like to stop. I'm so hungry. I'd really like to stop. Like, does I even have like a protein bar that I can instead?

Like, I feel like I'm just in an endless Snickers commercial about how hungry I am. It's just, yeah. I need this little baby to come replace me so I can just stop. You know, this idea of being like 14 billion years old. I liked when it's like, I was once little like you, you know, a man from the other world. Obviously, like, you know, the comics canon of the Galen of Top, pre Big Bang and everything. But it's just, I thought that the setup with Galactus, this is kind of classic. like Marvel third act stuff to me.

But like I thought our introduction to Galax, I mean, first of all, let's just say Galactus is not a cloud in this movie. And so that's just a huge win and a huge improvement. It just really felt great. I thought that the like the switch from in the ultimately like the third act, I did like seeing Galactus like Kaiju through New York. I thought that was kind of like interesting. But that was where I kind of had a little bit of a hard time turning off my like.

I've got my list of like notes building. First of all, I think like with Reed's plan, though I suspect this will be important in the future, but just like, okay, we couldn't move our earth. We'll move one devourer of worlds instead. We're going to use the baby as bait. It's like we know that's not going to work. Okay, that'll set up a conflict. Okay. Read like, where are we going to send them to the far edges of the universe?

Like without a ship, he'll be stranded. It's like, Galactus has the power cosmic. He abuses Heralds with some of the power cosmic. The power, like, we just can't overstate the magnitude of the power cosmic. So, like, Galactus kind of go in just like, I know a couple people had to help and everything, and Shalabalas, Sue dies, and then Shalabalas to kind of come and give the final assist. but I'm sort of like, I don't know that Galactus should have gone into that portal at the end, at the end of the day. Can I say the math that I was doing is as Galactus is like destroying New York?

Yeah. We got an email from a listener, Bridget, who also did not enjoy necessarily a depiction of Sue Storm, but said, also hot take. Perhaps the moral decision was to give the kid over in real kids die all the time. energy from Bridget. When they're like making the idea is we have evacuated everyone to subterania. So everyone's fine. I really still think there are probably some people in that city. And I really think some of those people probably died.

And I really think that... Evacuating people to subterrania when the devourer of worlds is about to walk on the street. I don't know how much good that does you. I'm very sure that some of subterranean collapse. How many people died to keep that baby alive? is a question. Now, you might say, we don't trade lives, Captain.

I was going to say. That's not what we do. But I don't know. Joanna. I'm with you that these are the questions worth asking on the pod, wherever you land. It's our job to ask the questions.

One of the least popular takes that Jason and I ever put out into the world during our Benjamin Marvel Room was handover revision. Handover vision. I don't know. I mean, why not? He dies anyway.

I know. It's very sad. Very sad. You want to talk about Franklin for another minute here? Give him the baby you want to kill him. Give him that baby. You don't want to kill him. You want to turn him into the devourer of worlds, which, like, you know, is his destiny. I feel like it's going there anyway. It is his destiny. Give him that baby. Okay.

Franklin Richards, Omega Level Muton. Beyond. Shares the power cosmic. Can bring his mom back from the dead and do a bunch of other shit. Destin take over the throne. A little baby. Doesn't take it from the throne And the bottomless hunger from Galactus

I just want to shout out in this post-credit singer Which is essentially where we find ourselves Eric Carl The Very Hungry Caterpillar exists in all universes Love that book when I was a kid 1969, so nice That's when we are We are in 1969 in the post-credit singer

So very hungry caterpillar existed So does Charles Darwin Which Franklin Franklin loves to read Yesterday? Yeah, he's four years old. He's like, next. And a fly went by by Mike Lintock is where we land.

And I want to mention a fly and went by because this is a really fascinating book. I don't know how much time you spent with this book, but this book, which is about a guy who sees a fly who's being chased by a frog, being chased by a cat, being chased by a dog, being chased by yada, yada, yada. And it all starts because there's a man with a gun running. And there's a man with a gun is running is he thinks a monster chasing him. And it's really just a sheep with a can on his foot, making a glorious. lumping noise. So really we're all running from nothing. But I really love, I'm just going to read a quick part. The fly ran away in fear of the frog who ran for the cat, who ran for the dog. The dog ran away in fear of the pig, who ran from the cow. She was so big. The cow ran away from the fox,

who ran as fast as he could in fear of the man that hurt a thump. And the way he ran, it was just a sheep with an old tin can. But there's other section where it says, the fly does not know that the frog is not mad. The frog does not know that the cat is not bad. The cat runs into fear of the dog. I can tell if I can stop him, then all will be well. So, like, this idea of, like, doom shows up. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what is the nature of doom?

We don't quite know yet there's various versions of doom that we can talk about and think about it, speculate as we go towards Doomsday. But, like, what are the intentions? Like, who is bad here? Who is a real threat here? What are we running from? What are we running towards? The frog does not know that the cat is not bad.

Like, you know, is Doom so a feared of the potential threat of Franklin Richards that he is here? Does Doom think that Franklin Richards is the anchor being of this university? You got to watch Dead Pull and Wolverine to have a better grasp of that. Is, are we thinking of Doom in the incorrect light? Should we be thinking of Doom as more of a misguided hero than like an actual villain? Like, what are the— He'd like you two. What is the frog running from?

What is the dog running from? from what is the fox running from? And who is the sheep with a tin can on its foot as we go forward inside of this story? You know? Great transition with the children's book from Very Hungry Caterpillar, like Galactus. Insatiable Hunger. Yeah, insatiable hunger. And we're all on a journey of evolution.

To mutation to Doom. Yeah. That was really great. It was not at all surprised to see Doom in the Stinger. I'm surprised that it was Downy, I guess. But that's a fun thing to know. I mean, that's what they're claiming. I really would have just gotten a guy in a hood if we're not going to show the face.

Frankly, like, reaching out to touch the face, very interesting. I think they're, okay, so there are a couple, like, interesting questions with this mid-credit singer. First of all, shout out to the Fantastic Four on their, you know, everybody's fixing up after all that went down with Galactus and they've done some redecorating. New carpet? It looks great. Yeah. Looks great in there. Franklin, the mask in the hand, obviously the hood, but also the mask, it's unmistakably doom, of course.

Franklin, like, reaching for his face was just such a great little touch for so many different reasons. The empty lot varia seat, one of the interesting questions is like, does this fantastic four have a history with doom? Right. Because we don't know. We don't know what their Victor von Doom is like if this is their Victor Von Doom. Yeah. We don't know. He was missed is this 8-2-8s.

Is the doom of Doomsday? And this Doom and the Stinger, are they the same? I would say so if he's there for Franklin Richards. That seems likely. But is this their doom? On the one hand, the empty lot various seat and then his presence makes me think, I mean, maybe the empty lot of various seat is just like a wink to us. But it did make me think like, oh, they have.

have history of him. However, well, go ahead. Well, he's, like, not present in the, like, here's our rapid fire rundown of all of their, like, thwarted phones. Of the people who are watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe that just would have felt like a little bit of a, like, this is kind of a whimper of a way to, like, announce doom, whereas, like, the Stinger was more effective.

There's an interesting theory that this is not the doom of 8-28 and that they are going to cast someone else as the doom of 8-28 so that when Downey leaves, there can be. there can be a Victor von Doom in 828 for the Fantastic 4 to interact with going forward in the films, and they don't want to cast whoever that is. So they're just sort of like that Victor von Doom is not here. He wasn't at this, you know, Future Foundation meeting and stuff like that. So he's just like M.I.A. right now. So that we can cast Hobbes and Dragons at Gmail.com if you have an opinion about who should be the future Doom if it's not Downey, you know, in perpetuation.

which it won't be. Right, for sure. At a certain point, the rate is too much even for Marvel. I think that, like, so, I mean, Doom has come to kidnap Franklin in the comics. That has happened. We won't spoil everything that happens after. Franklin, you know, the powers beyond even an omega-level mutant, the reality warping powers, the molecular manipulation, the ability to create pocket universes. The way that Franklin attracts because of the sheer might of his abilities, villain after villain, foe after foe, this question of like, I think this is really smart setup for Doom and,

Doom's Day and ultimately Secret Wars, this question of like, is Doom, like, is someone trying to use Franklin to destroy universes? is Franklin going to be key to restoring universities? Are we trying to take Franklin out as a threat, use him as a tool, stop him from being a hero, you know, like, blah, blah. Now, a lot of comics canon points us in certain directions there and gives us an indicator, but as you've rightly noted, like, the MCU changes that stuff all the time. So I think this is like an enticing way to prime people who bring that knowledge to it, but also just people. who see this movie and have never read a page of a Franklin Richard's comic, but understand he just brought his mom back from the dead. And Galactus was like, I'm the devourer of worlds, but you're the

only one who can replace me and now Doom is here to take him. You're like, that kids really got it. Real five-star prospects. You're like an ominous hooded guy with a mask who I don't know who the fuck Doom is, is here to take him. So anyway, tune in for the Avengers Doom Day to Tulare. A year and a half. Question mark. Great question. Okay. We got a jet. We got a motor. Thank you so much. I'm sorry this was a longer, deeper dive, and Fantastic 4. We just got a lot going on. We're trying to get as much out to you before I am out of here. But thank you to everyone who worked on this spot. Thank you to Mallory Rubin. Thank you to Carlos Chiraboga. Thank you to our Juno and Raigua. Thank you to Jonathan Frius. Thank you to all of you, bad babies. Thank you to the Fantastic Four. We'll be back with Stranger Things Season 2. Check in. Hobbitz and Dragons at gmail.com. You have thoughts and feelings you would like to share about that.

And some alien earth to look forward to some other fun stuff from Mallory as we go. And we will see you soon. Thank you all. You're the best community we could possibly ever hope for. We'll see you soon. Bye. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel

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