House of R - The Holiday Gift Swap: ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’ for ‘Interview With the Vampire’ Season 2

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

Mal and Jo get into the holiday spirit with a gift swap! This time they exchange ‘Interview With the Vampire’ Season 2 for ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash.’ Plus, they discuss the new ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ Teaser. (00:00) Intro (08:15) ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ Teaser (20:48) ‘Interview With the Vampire’ Season 2 (01:13:14) ‘Avatar: Fire and Ash’ Prepare for one last adventure at Target. Visit target.com/StrangerThings Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to House of Our. I'm Joyna Robinson joining me today after she has bribed me into doing my job. It's Mallory Rubin. Hey, Mallory, how you doing? The Bad Babies cried for a podcast, Joanna. But Awa did not come. You did, though. And so we're making a podcast today.

Phrasing. All right, it's a holiday gift swap episode, wherein Mallory Rubin persuaded me to watch Avatar Fire and Ash, a.k. do my job. And I persuaded her to watch Interview with the Vampire Season 2. You didn't have to persuade me at all. It was an absolute pleasure. We engaged in theater the way that we engaged in theater.

So Mallory watched all of interviews of Vampire Season 2. I watched Avatar Fire and Ash roughly the same in runtime, I would say. And also, we're going to talk about Steve Rogers. All of that and more after this. This episode of House of Ar is presented by Target. Stranger Things has returned to Target

and it's time to visit Hawkins for the final time. Step back into the 80s with righteous exclusives like a funco pop of Steve in the Squawk van, the epic squawk satin bomber jacket, and the stranger things you may upside down capsule shaped like a walkie-talkie. New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target. All right, I'm very excited to dig in to interview the Empire Season 2, and I am grudgingly here to talk to you about Avatar Empire and Ash, a film that I did pay for, and I did see. Before we get into that, though, let's talk about some program reminders. Listen, it's the end of the year.

Are we done? No, we're not. There's several more episodes of Stranger Things that are coming out, and we are going to cover them in one way or another. We haven't fully, fully figured out exactly our release strategy, but we will have several episodes left this year into the new year about the volume 2 and volume 3 of the final season of Stranger. We're covering both volumes with how many episodes we'll see, but something will be there for you right away. We know that. Instantaneously.

Yes. You're going to avoid your fam, go binge watch a bunch of episodes television, then listen to a four-hour podcast from us. What could be more in the holiday spirit? Something right away off of volume two, I should say, probably not right away off volume three, given that we don't anticipate having the ability to watch that in advance. So we will be watching alongside. Give us a little bit of New Year's grace.

Give us a little news grace. Yeah, give us a little nearest grace. We'll be there. We'll be there. Yeah, I don't think that, I don't think we're getting screeners for that New Year's Eve episode. So, okay. So that's what we have planned for the rest of the year.

Yeah. He did rivalry also, Joe, over on the prestige TV TV feed. Listen, I just record a prestige episode with Rob Moni this morning. He told me you were out there in the wild in Los Angeles just handing out those heated rivalry takes for free. This is what I was telling you. Like, it's just the talk of the town. It's the talk in the town. Was this like a holiday party?

You and Mahoney were like... Yeah. Well, I was trying to engage him on Landman as always. And he is a little behind, so we put a pin in that, and we will be resuming those conversations in short order. But everyone was ready to talk about Heated Rivalry. The fact that he has watched any Landman before Heated Rival really bums me out. Anyway, listen.

Dude, if you want to get... Man season two. It's peak television. It's peak television. Listen, you don't get any Landman takes for me this year. You get out of the tar takes from me this year. It's only one or the other. That's all I have in me.

All right. So listen, Mallory's official codified for the podcast, heated rivalry takes have been recorded over the Prestige TV feed. They will be out this Saturday for episode five, the incredible episode five, that we both loved. And then we'll be watching the finale. I can't wait. Which neither of us have seen yet. And covering that also next week.

So we will have Stranger Things for you next week on this feed. We will have heated rivalry for you in the prestige feed. There will be pluribus content. over on the prestige feed, a lot of holiday goodies for you. Before we get to any of that, juicy goodness, though, we have to get through Avatar. Where can folks follow us? I'm almost at the end of my avatar journey. I'm like near hours away from not having to talk about this again. Where can folks find all of this great content from us, Malli over a bit? Hey, thanks for asking. You're welcome. Here's what I would recommend. Do you want to know what we're up to

in the holidays, it's making podcasts. You want to know what those podcasts are? Check them out and here's how. Follow the pod. Follow House of R. Follow the Prestige TV podcast. Follow the Ringervorce on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

You can watch full video episodes of House of Ar and the Midnight Boys, Poo, pew, pew, pew. And the Prestige TV podcast on Spotify. And you can watch our video episodes on YouTube. Subscribe to the Ringervverse YouTube channel if you haven't yet, subscribe to the Ringer TV channel, if you haven't yet. While you're at it, follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing.

And we're not here to tell you what that should be. We all condition ourselves like totally normal humans on podcasts this week. Everything was fine. It was great. This was a wonderful week of podcasting. I had a blast. Send your emails while you're at it. We want to hear from you about everything always.

We really want your stranger things emails because we are, are going to, as mentioned, be covering this in real time, real-ish time. So send us, there's like a brief window. Brief window between the volume 2 and volume 3 drops. Get us your theories. When you watch the finale and this decade-long journey has concluded at last, tell us how you're feeling about it. What's on your mind?

What are you going to be carrying with you forward? What are you thinking back on? We want your emails about stranger things. And then, you know what? It's not too early to start looking ahead to the new year. We're not too far away from our annual tradition. The hype draft, what are you looking forward to? Tell us.

We're not too far away from Buffy Season 3. Get the emails going. We're not too far away from a night of the seven kingdoms. I mean, we're just going to be, we're going to be living in January. It's going to be the best. January's nuts. There's also the pit in industry. There's just like a lot of things happening.

Absolutely bananas. All right. Hobbitson Dragons at gmail. com. Habbas andjohns and gmail.com. You have not sent us any avatar. emails, alasalack, but we did get some interview of the vampire emails just from people

being like, season two is the absolute fucking best, and will you be covering season three in its entirety? And the answer is yes to both of those things. Spoiler warning. Will we be doing it in the form of song? Musical pod every week. Stay tuned. What do you think? Okay. I don't know. Email

slobousandragus.g's gmail.com. If you want to hear me warble my way through my tears of Interview the Vampire Season 3. Okay. Listen, spoiler warning. Yes. the Avengers trailer that was in front of Avatar we saw, we will discuss briefly. The Odyssey six-minute prologue we did not see. Nope. Because I guess that was an IMAX only and we did not get that memo.

So neither Mallory nor I saw the Odyssey six-minute prolog. We wanted to talk about it today. We will not be able to because that is not something we saw last night at our screenings. But that's a warning for you. If you're like, I'm only in it for the Odyssey prolog, I guess you got a pony up for IMAX. So fair enough, Chris Nolan, you win again. Okay. Avatar Fire Nash, spoiler warning, interview with the vampire season two, spoiler winner.

Spoiler warning. These are the three sections. We will announce what sections we're doing at the top of it. But that is what we were talking about here today. That is the podcast title of this episode. That is what we are here to discuss. You're so excited to talk about Avatar Fire Nash. You can't wait your throat.

Let's go now to our brief reactions to a very, very, very brief teaser trailer for Avengers colon doomsday. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training. is required. Tremfaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely

active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Tramphiara.com. If it wasn't already ruined for you on the internet, because it did leak a little early. Yeah.

Were you spoiled on what was in this Avengers Doomsday teaser? So I knew that we were going to be getting multiple trailers over multiple weeks. By the way, I would say trailer is teaser. Yeah, teaser. These are micro-glimpses. Boosh. Character-centric appetizers for the doomsday countdown. So I knew that we were getting four over four weeks.

I knew that they were going to be character-specific. And in a way that I got to say, even in the era of life on the Internet, and you should be expecting things flying at you all the time. And there was not a fiber of our beings, not a bone in our bodies, not a cell of blood. in these flesh sacks that thought there was a chance Chris Evans was not going to be returning as Steve Rogers Captain America in Avengers Doomsday. I wish that I had gotten to just sit down and have him, his face, his bike, the house, everything pop on the screen and feel that kind of indescribable feeling that you get as a fan

of a story when you realize a character you love is back in your life. That is not exactly how I felt when I discovered that the first trailer would be of Steve Rogers' trailer while scrolling Instagram two days ago and seeing multiple reports and aggregations that the cap trailer was coming. So that's just, you know, life in the modern digital era. And so it goes. That was how I found out. I had not actually watched it online, though, because I still wanted to see it on the big screen because I knew I would be there and have the opportunity to do that. I thought we might get a Spider-Man trailer. I also thought that because that also, There are a bunch of leaks online, the Spider-Man trailer, the Avengers Doomsday teaser,

and the Odyssey Prolog is online, but I haven't watched any of it in the... I do not want to see it that way. In the griny leaked versions. Mostly because I thought I was good to pay to see them in theaters yesterday, and I did not get them. I got two trailers for the Pixar Film Hoppers, which, you know, putting that in front of Avatar was pretty smart since it's basically Avatar. And then this Avengers Doomsday teaser.

Like, that's it. That's all I got. It was the Hopper's trailer and this Avengers Doom Today teaser. And then the lights went down. I was like, oh, are they bringing the lights down for the Odyssey prolog? And then, no, the fucking movie just started. I was like, oh, well, here we are. We had a pretty good trailer slate in front of this movie. I will say it was just in general was like, wow, there's a lot of cool movies coming.

I think actually most of which I had seen already, like, Of course, we got Project Hail Mary, which we've seen and talked about with each other many times. But anytime I did, I did. I did get Amanda Grogoo trailer. Oh, you did? Fun. I didn't get that. I wish I had gotten out on the big screen.

But seeing my sweet Rocky there, always a joy. Got to see, obviously, I had watched it when it came out online a few days ago, but got to see the Supergirl trailer on the big screen. So that was very fun. I think that trailer is pretty good. And I'm excited for that movie. And my beloved crypto, just, you know, the star of the show, as always. So that was fun. But yeah, I thought, all right, Spidey still maybe.

And then, of course, the recognition that the realization that the Odyssey teaser would only be an IMAX. And then I did when I left the theater, I was like, is there an IMAX starting? Could I get a ticket? Could I go? But the timing did not align in that particular theater. And I had seen, I mean, we'll talk about the 3D, 2D of it all when we get to the Avatar chat, but I had seen Avatar for the first time at the screening in 3D. And so both because I'd already seen it in 3D

and actually wanted to compare 3D to 2D as a viewing experience, but also because I went last night with my husband Adam and he cannot see 3D. I also can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we weren't going to end up in an IMAX 3D showing last night no matter what.

But it was always going to be 2D for me. I probably would have tried to go if I had known the Odyssey Prolog was only in IMAX theaters. Should that have been my job to know? probably, but here we are. Okay, listen, we have a lot to get to, so I don't want to linger too long here, but I will just say the notes that I wrote in my phone and then I put it away for the rest of the movie and also watch on cinema mode, obviously.

But I was ready to take like Odyssey notes on my phone on Dim, but didn't work out for me. Anyway, Steve Wiglet back. That's what I wrote. Those are my sum total of my notes. We got the bike. We got the house that we recognized. We got the uniform in its sort of like sad, deflated state. And then we got a baby and a countdown clock.

And that is that is the, did you expect to see Peggy? Like were you thinking you might see her? What do you think? I really had no expectations at all, honestly. I have no expectations for what will be in any of this. I think it's a fascinating strategy. Stop me if you've heard this before. I'm off too much.

and I'm at war with myself. So when it became clear that the Doomsday trailers were going to be in our lives in December of 2025. One calendar year. One calendar year before the movie came out.

And crucially, before properly releasing Spider-Man trailers, I was like, this is actually a little strange to me because what if this movie moves and dates are announced and trailers show out and the movies move all the time?

But like the head-to-head with Dune. It just seems like something's moving on that calendar around that time. But it really feels like we should be starting to jump beat for Spider-Man. So that felt odd to me heading into the theater, but also there's a part of me that's like, of course, Marvel wanting us to get excited for a new Avengers movie with all of our favorites returning is the most logical and natural impulse in the world. When the countdown clock hit, forgetting even just the Steve Rogers of it, which of course is exhilarating, that countdown clock ticked from one second down from one.

year and then second, second, second. And I was like, this is what it feels like to be alive. This is the best. So you're all, you're excited. You're all in. You're like, this is going to be great despite what Marvel has been recently. Steve is back. They're doing, they're going to do a Thor one of these. They're going to do a Dr. Doom one of these. I forget what the fourth one is supposed to be. Joanna, if they gave us, because this cast is fucking gigantic, I haven't checked the math on whether they could actually do 52 of these. But if they gave us one a week... One per folding chair?

Yeah, exactly. One per chair. Yeah. Per one a week from now until this movie comes out, let me tell you something. I would be fucking delighted. And I think the fact that it was so contained and it really was just, we're not going to be like really showing you a lot of footage, really telling you much about what this movie is going to be about or how it's going to function.

It is a reminder to you. It is an appeal to your nostalgia. It is an appeal to the love. You used to love us. Yeah, come back. Come back into the seat and be with the people you miss. So seeing Cap, it's the perfect way to start. It's just perfect.

And like, the house, the bike, the uniform, the wiglet I thought of you with the wigglet immediately. It's just like we miss Steve Rogers. We miss Captain America. I can't wait to find out what they're going to do with all the timeline shenanigans and Willie I definitively answer all the questions we've had for years. Probably not. But that's okay.

We're going to be back with Steve and that'll be in some. ways enough. So, and in other ways, they need to do a lot of stuff beyond that to make a good a good Marvel movie. We need them. We need Mallory Rubbins of this world. And we need your, your hope and sunshine for my cynicism. You know how I felt about the, the doom announcement. I had plenty of cynicism around that. No, you're mixed with joy. But this is like, you're not, like, you're not, you have so many brains in your head. You're not like, whatever. You're not, like, whatever. I I just, I like that you have a hope springs internal attitude. And I'm like, this is, this makes me a little sad that they feel like,

sure. This is the only way that they can get people interested in their storytelling is to be like, it's, it's like it was before when you liked us, you know? No question. That was like, that was a very top of mind for me and I think still is with, you know, it's course wonderful to have Downey back. And I'm intrigued, I guess, to see what they do with, with Downey as Doom. but the, like, kind of creative bankruptcy of feeling like there's no successful path to a new story at that scale is deflating.

I think that that is true and remains true. And obviously, the more of our favorites return in that form, the truer it will be. I think that it's also true that when you see Steve Rogers as Captain America back on the big screen, it just activates something inside of you as a Marvel fan where you're like, I hope they can give me that feeling again. if that's the only way they can give us that feeling again, that will be disappointing, but we know it's not, because we just talked a couple days ago about how much we loved. Thunderbolts, for example. So, you know, I think that I remain hopeful that Doomsday can tap back into something

that lights up that shared experience from Marvel fans, and then they can build from there into, like, the X-Men era. That would be great. My dream. We love it when this stuff is good, so I hope it's good. If this movie's bad or only ends up feeling like, a nostalgia play, it's devastating. You know, but I live in the hope until they give me a reason not to.

I will say I'm excited for Spider-Man. Like, I think Spider-Man is going to be good. I'm just much more skeptical about this. So we're getting this Steve, Steve teaser. They're doing a Doom teaser, a Thor teaser, and then they're going to do a more comprehensible, like actual trailer-style teaser. So hopefully those will be, I'm not going back to the theater for Avatar three more times.

Let me tell you what. So hopefully those will be a really serious. online and we can watch them and then talk about them eventually. But that is the current plan. Anything else you want to say about Steve or? Well, here's my question. This is more like a meta-Hollywood business question, but like this has been the chatter for weeks, months now, which is like, surely either Dune 3 or Avengers Doomsay has to move? Yeah. Yeah. So this is a game of chicken. Yeah. Do you think they put that clock on there to be like, you can't make us move? You can't make us move. we've got a countdown clock.

I do, and I wonder if that's a miscalculation that could lead to something very embarrassing, honestly. But if I had to put a bet on the board, my bet, neither of these movies is going to give up IMAX. There's just no way. And they're not going to go head to head. There's no way.

That would be actually would be so reckless and irresponsible to go head to head for no reason. My guess, I was talking to Arjuna and Jomey about this in the office the other day, I think Dune will move up. I don't think either will move back out of next calendar year, but I can see Dune moving up and remaining in like peak Oscar season, but maybe starting to build the Oscar hype a little earlier in October or November.

Yeah, that would be my guess. What do you think? You think they're going to move Dune's date of like 2028? I don't know. I honestly, I don't know. This is something that I would like to, you know, backchannel some information. We'll see. We'll see if I have any insights going forward.

But yeah, let's do some reporting. Let's doing some gum-shoeing. Why not? All right. So that is our trailer wrap-up, which was supposed to be much more robust. But here we are, victim to our 2D experience. Let's go now to my gift to my beloved Mallory Rubin, interview with the vampire season two. This episode is brought to you by Target.

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Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. Okay. I've explained the premise of this podcast to several people in my life for the last couple weeks, and they are all like jaws on the floor, like, I don't understand.

You keep giving Mallory really nice things, and she keeps making you watch shit you don't want to watch. And I'm like, yeah. Some reason it makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. But as I alluded to earlier, and as you brought up on the prestige pod, rightly so earlier this week, me seeing Avatar is really something bare minimum. I should be doing my job.

So it's just a way to talk about a movie that might make, you know, a billion dollars. That people might want to hear about us on. And I like to think that letting people hear you receive and respond to Angela and Eansley last year. It was really our gift to the world. Sure. If you think of it that way. Blow jobs and oil rigs or CGI Wells and, CGI Wells and just honestly. the most...

You have my attention with all of the above. Graphically, like, constantly sexual prostrating of blue cat people that I've ever seen in my life in Avatar 3. We'll talk about that a second.

Before we get there, we've got to get through some vampires. Okay. Mallory Rubin. Yes, ma'am. It was perhaps overhyped by me, and something I was

eager to share with you as you started your journey into season two is that the first episode is, I would say, bad, but the season in his whole is very good. So hopefully I didn't overhype it for you. What were your overall impressions of Interview the Vampire Season 2? I loved it. I thought it was absolutely fantastic, like a really, really, really excellent top tier season of TV and the kind of season of TV that, as you have been doing, makes you want to, like, evangelize for a show and try to get it in front of as many people as possible, because it feels almost tragic that more people aren't aware

that there's something that is operating at this level of excellence in every respect, the structure of the story, the way that we're moving through time. The writing is just astonishing. It is so lyrical and beautiful. And we talked about that a lot in season one. That was one of the things that I loved most about it, It's just the poetry of the language.

Yeah. You know, obviously, often in a literary adaptation, that quality is going to be there, but not always. And the writing and the way that the performers in such a gifted cast are shaping those words and bringing them to us, it's just like a lovely show to listen to, in addition to watching and thinking about, the performances are just unbelievable. Like, they're just unbelievable. and there's something really indelible

about a number of the characters. I thought that this season, you had warned me and I was grateful because I was not very into the first episode for a couple different reasons, but from episode two on, I was just completely in. And I think that a lot of the episodes

in this season were really good, but I think two of the eight were like among the... We have not yet done in our best of the century so far series, a episode, you know, or shows list, but like, I would consider, if we did, I would consider two episodes from this season as, which we'll get to in a minute as like eligible for inclusion. And, you know, I guess just to the top level, like, the other thing about this season,

and this is certainly part of the core thrust of the story overall and this idea of the interview and a recounting and a recollection and multiple narrators, all of that, this season in particular just did a really masterful job of exploring something that I really love and am endlessly fascinated in in stories where multiple point of views are presented to us, which is like, can you trust your own mind? And maybe a character is actively grappling with that at some point, as is often the case throughout this season. Like, I'm trying to fill in the blanks. I don't know what happened. Maybe there is a realization and awakening at some point that there are missing pieces that you didn't even know we're missing. All of that is. here, right? A competing version of events. How much of that is because that's the nature of either humanity or vampiric and mortal existence? You got a lot of time in your life and it's hard to keep track of all of it. How much of that is because there's somebody who has maybe actively leading you toward a different version of events? This was such a really artful examination of the way that we construct the narratives about our own experiences. And it's just

I like it will be the example I cite moving forward, I think, when talking about stories that do that well. So with apologies to Showtime's modern classic, The Affair, knocked out the top spot, but it will still be number two. And what I love about this is this is this feeds very much into what Anne Rice did because she wrote interview with Vampire and then she wrote The Vampire Listat, which is in theory the framework for the third season, but this idea of getting Listott's. POV of what you already heard about what happened in an interview of the vampire, Lestat's

POV, that's what the vampire Lestat is about. So you get a taste of that that is brought into this season when you get like the trial sequence and you get these things told from Lestat's point of view, this idea of the loneliness and what he was going through. And it doesn't change the monstrosity. It's not Lestat explaining away because he still takes responsibility to the extent that he can for like his monster's behavior. But it's just sort of like, and here's why.

And it's really interesting to me because, like, in contrast to something like what they promised to do with Night of the Seven Kingdoms next year, Duncan Egg, where they're like, this is strictly from Dunk's POV or, like, in his visor, in his, you know, blah. I don't think it was quite as obvious in season one of Inter with a Vampire that we were just like just in Louis POV. We were very much in Louis POV, but I think it was less obvious that we were getting, like, such a. personally distorted view. And then in season two, when you get not only the idea that, like, it was informed by human

or vampiric emotion, but also this idea that Armand was actively editing Louis's mind. Yeah. That just adds more fuel to that fire. I was probably always going to love

this season of television because it is not only, like, vampires being dramatic, incredibly, incredibly good performance, such rich, rich language, as you mentioned. But it centers around a theater.

And I just, that is just like my bread and butter. Like absolutely incredible. We get Jacob Anderson, Sam Reed, Erica Bogosian, you know, returning as core trio. Asad Zaman like really steps up as a vampire mom in the season. And I was like, skeptical after the first season because I wasn't really that into him. And then I just thought he was so good this season. You have Delaney Hales taking over as Claudia, who I thought. was really, really good.

And then you've got a shared favorite of ours, Ben Daniels, showing up as Santiago, the sort of head thespian and rival for the leadership of this theater troupe played by Stephen Ray in the movie. Lovel, like, creepily so in the movie, really good job. But this is just like, this is a perfect marriage of performer and role. And like, as dramatic as Lestat is and all is like, no one is as hammy and dramatic and bitchy and vampiric and bleached and all. all these other things, constantly wearing a ton of makeup on his face,

often like corseted and all his other things, then Ben Daniels is Santiago in this season. I want to go back to the list out in a second, but do you want to just take a second, talk about your experience, really understanding how integral Ben Daniels was to this season? You thought Rings of Power season two had some Ben Daniels. Here he is.

I did love Ben Daniels and Rings of Power. Obviously, we love our blue leader. As you know, as we've talked about on the pod previously, his Snowden on the Crown is like one of my favorite parts of the Crown. And that's one of my, to this point, I would have said it was my favorite Ben Daniels performance, I think. Again, we have a new, we have a new number one. This is unbelievable. Francis.

Francis, dear Francis, I love the camp. and I love the drama and, like, yeah, every single aspect of it. You can, it's fun when you can tell how much fun the performers are having, inhabiting the characters, you know? And I think that's true for a lot of the cast and certainly, obviously, like we've talked about that with Sam Reed before. And you had told me, because, you know, I love Ben Daniels, that was one of the ways you sold me early on interview. It was like, Ben Daniels is waiting for you in season two, and he's going to be at a feeder. Yeah. But even then, I had no idea what was waiting for me.

And the fact that the first exposure is this quite long performance in the play. And obviously, that's really helpful in terms of understanding how the theater and the troop for the Coven is going to function inside of the season. and the way that they will be able to eat and feed and hunt and kill and be vampires in plain sight. And that will be the point that the act is reality and nobody knows is brilliant as a bit of storytelling. But that it just was such a great way to like present him to us and allow us to understand that he's going to deliver humorous lines. He's going to deliver yet again like beautiful language. He's going to like twirling around up there and wearing blue eye shadow and slicked back hair. and he's going to want to be at the center of things,

which is, of course, then, fundamental to how he operates against our other characters. I don't think I've ever seen so many capes or cloaks swished in my entire life as I saw him doing the season. Okay, a concern, and this is very prevalent in the first episode, which is sort of this like other interlude before they get to Paris. Yeah. My concern about season two was like, all right, Lestat is out of commissionish for a section of this story, Sam Reed was, you know, I love Jacob Anderson as Louis. I love Eric Bekosian as Daniel Malloy, like just incredible stuff. But Sam Rina's Lestat was like such a huge part of what

makes season one so unforgettable. So we're recasting Claudia and Lestat is going to not be around very much, but they found a work around here when they had this like Louie projection of Lestat who occupies a couple of the episodes before Lestat himself makes his corporeal return. How did you feel like they dealt with that? And does it feel like a cheat or was it just like too fun? And you were like, this is a great way to get Sam Reid here as much as possible. Certainly didn't feel like a cheat. I mean, I loved it.

And I think yes to the latter, like it felt like a great way to ensure that Sam Reed was present in the show, which I think is like not only something that people want, but is ultimately like an inextricable part of the fabric of the TV shows universe. It just wouldn't quite feel right for him not to be here. So I was thrilled and delighted to find that he would be dappled across the season. But not only I would say does it not feel like a cheat in terms of how he was presented to us in those early episodes, it felt exactly right because this manifestation of not just Louise's memories, but this tie the binds that they cannot cut, right, no matter what either of them does. The idea that Lestat would be this source of torment and this specter haunting every step that Louis takes and every conversation that he has and every person he meets in the woods, every person he brings back to their new flat, anything at all, that Lestat would be there in the shadows of his mind.

And then that would be literalized by showing him in the shadows of the room, mocking, taunting, judging, judging, just. Just taking the piss out of Armand constantly. One of my favorite moments was when Armand shows up outside of the balcony of the flat. And Lestat spits Romeo barely Balthazar. Like, it's just like, it's so good. And just like scoffing and mocking. And I agree with everything you said in it. Also does a really good job laying the trackwork.

You know, Daniel asks at one point in the interview, like, are you? schizophrenic, you know, like, is this something, you know, but like the madness that Louis descends into at the end of the season into like, you know, into the fire plan. And when he's talking to these corpses around him, like, it sort of lays the track for that of like this is where his mind was headed all along this season, you know. Yeah. And the idea that like the way that he describes his madness and his rage being linked. And then of course, also those, both of those things are linked for Louis to his love and his lust. And that those, yeah, that's all entwined for him. and like inextricable from each other is great.

So I think to see where Louis ended season one and the things that he did, if Lestat were not on his mind constantly, that would not have felt true to me to the choices that he made and the experiences that he shared. So this feels right for the story and the character, but also a very handy way for us to get time with Sam Reed as Lestat and who I ask is going to complain about that.

It was interesting to hear Sam Reid talk about this. performance of what the Lestat that Louis imagines Lestat would be and how that's different from how he actually plays Lestat. But it's not totally dissimilar from the Lestat of season one because that was always the Lestat from Louis's point of view. You know, the stat we met in season one was always from Leo's point of view. And I think the realist version we have of Lestat is the one we see in New Orleans at the very end of this season, which is such.

A seismic shift. You know what I mean? It's just a really incredible scene. All right, so you tease this earlier. You were like, there are two episodes that really stood out to you this season. I have already mentioned which one is the standout for me, but what is your favorite episode or episodes

and why? Episode five. Don't be afraid to start the tape, which on two different podcasts that we've done over the years, you have played, not just talking about, but played actual clips. This is like a fascinating. I feel like they can use this in,

and other, probably buffy examples and other things too, like almost in like a psychology class, something about like encoding failures. Like when you don't have the context to fully understand what something is, like sometimes you're like, wow, I got split out of thing.

And sometimes you're like, I don't really know what that was about. I was so like it was still preserved in full for me. I was really trying to pluck things that wouldn't like completely spoil what it was for you. The, the, so the rest clip that you had played, which I believe, if I'm remembering correctly,

was from the top moments of the year when season two aired. I just had no context for at the time because I hadn't watched the show. I think you thought that was him actually turning Daniel. In present day. I did. I told you I had like nothing about that was spoiled for me.

And the clip that you selected for Best Fights of the Century so far, a pod we just did, in person, I miss you. I know. Last week, you could not have done a better job. of picking it because the clip that you picked was like, what's that, let's that, let's out, let's that, let's that, let's that, let's that. And I'm like, well, yeah, this makes sense to me that they would be arguing about this

without having all of the particulars of everything else that is present in that San Francisco memory. So after, not to spoil our own outline here, but we're going to go through some like favorite moments for favorite characters shortly. So I'll come back to the particulars for both of these episodes for some of the characters, but just broadly, again, what that does on the memory front and our ability to examine and understand what we carry with us, why, how much of that is from our trauma and what we've repressed, how much of that is because somebody else is actively depriving you of the truth of your own experience.

The performances in that episode were among the best I've ever seen. I just thought it was godsmacking, and the language is so beautiful, that hypnotic quality that is present in the scene, rest, rest to lull Daniel into that, like, welcome, take the back, the more about the invitation, death's, waiting arms. it has like that affected that have not a quality on the viewer too

because just of the way it is crafted I'll talk more about Armand in a few minutes but that was the episode where I was like something has radically shifted about how I felt about this character in a way that is like really notable so that was just incredible and I knew how you felt about it and I know from you how Van felt about it

so that's always meaningful to me too when I'm like I know this is really important to someone I love I'm excited to find out why and then it delivers we had a funny moment I'll take people behind the curtain for a second where I told you, I texted you that I was finally starting. And then you didn't hear from me again. And you were like, oh, no. Did she hate it?

I was like, no, I liked it so much that I had to go right. I couldn't even stop the text. I went right to the next episode. And then I'm old and washed. So after that ended, I just fell asleep on the couch. I woke up in the middle of the night and I was up for four hours unable to fall back asleep. Anyway, so that's one of them.

I, it did not occur to me after watching that. There would potentially be another episode inside of the season that can measure up. I thought the finale was one of the best finalies I'd ever seen. Episode 8, and that's the end of it. There's nothing else. Everything about this was perfection. Just perfection.

The buildup to the Armand reveal, the like, you know, Daniel's... He directed it. Like, so good. That reveal is so good. They're partying in the ways. And then, of course, the, like, Louis Lestat reunion in New Orleans. And, like, Louis' vengeance tour in Paris

and how he dispensed with the coven. Like, there was not a moment in that finale that didn't work. And the fact that I think if you actually went through beat by beat, the all, like the scene breakdown of the episode, I think if you were just like describing it to me, I would say, oh, so that was like four episodes, right? Right. You know?

Right. And it's just such a tot tight 55 minutes of sheer perfection. And yeah, by the end, it's funny because there were a number. So I watched it with Adam. I can't remember if we talked about this on the season one pod, probably, but he is a really big fan. in the books, actually. He's read them all.

He loves them. He has, what I would describe as shocking recall of, like, details that have been quite a surprise to me as we're watching this where he's just like, oh, oh, oh, blah.

I, of course, have no idea what he's talking about. So it's been really fun to, but he hadn't watched the show until we watched it together. And it's been really fun to watch it together. He's really been blown away by it and has loved it.

We finished last night, and he's, like, immediately open YouTube in, like, the trailer for season three. You know, just like the second we finished the finale. Did he get really excited by the Akasha mention in the finale? He paused the episode so that he could like process it and talk about it and run through things. And I was like, can we just please resume the episode? It's like, if pod revved the deal.

I'm on Tender Hooks, yeah. But I was like, you should, can you really text Joanna? Yeah, he should. I have nothing to offer you there. He might. He probably will. But anyway, but so then there were a number of times this season where an episode ended and one or both of us turned to the other. and literally out loud said,

that was really good. Hell, yeah. Like, that's just the experience. You get to the end of the episode and you're like, holy shit. So the finale ended and we both were just like, that was really good.

Like, wow, it's hard to, you know, I understand there's a source text and everything, but it's hard to bring every strand of the story to such a satisfying place at the end there. And I just thought it was excellent. Really, really great.

I think the five, leading into six, which leads into the trial, which leads into the finale. Like, that stretch from five, six, seven, eight is one of the strongest, like, stretches I've seen at a TV show. And again, I was worried because the first episode is just like not that great. And the second one is like, you know, a bit of a slow rewatching the season, I will say I'm like much more invested all the way in from the beginning. But at first I had that fear of like a sophomore slump of a show that I loved.

And I was like, is it just not going to hit the same? And then I would say, actually, I think it hits even harder for me. Like, I think season two is even better for me at the end of the day. That episode five, San Francisco memory cobbling together episode, Luke Brandon Field plays young Daniel. And I think he is so good. Like, there's a really, you can see the connection between his performance and Eric Begoshan's performance, but it doesn't feel even remotely like an imitation or anything like that. It's just like, you know, and we had seen flashes of this.

before, but like, and it's all season. He's flashing to it all season long, the, what Armand did to him. And so that then gives him this, like, personal stake in the reveal at the end of the season because he's like, I was violated by Armand. My mind was violated by Armand. And so he's not out of the kindness of his heart is he exposing Armand at the end of the season, you know. I like to, like the, again, structurally, the fact that so much of the story is about, like, wide sweeping swaths of time. But inside of that episode, when they are, when Louis and

Daniel in Dubai, they're on a clock. Like, Armand's getting lunch, right? And so it's like, we've got to, we've got to figure this out with a quickness. Let's get our feet in the sand. Like, that was, that was great to simultaneously be. Is it going to take him to hunt someone to the burst? Caliphon in back. Yeah. And so like to be like spanning the decades of memory and also feeling like the second someone walks in the door, our chance to piece this together is over, was really tense in a great way. I think also similarly in the finale, like they've wrapped up the interview. And he's doing this like, just some follow-up questions. You know, and they're all, they're both sort of, you know, kind of like, okay, all right, let's wrap it up. We're done here.

We're done here. It's over. And he's like, here's some evidence I have. Oh, so good. When I, on rewatch, it's so fun to note how many times the camera shows you Armand with his red grease pencil in the margin taking notes to like, you know, lay the track for that so that you will have no doubt as to what you're seeing at the end. As you mentioned, you're going to sort of break down the specifics of these episodes a bit as I decided to do my favorite thing, which is just like run through some characters and some character moments. So do you have a favorite character of season two or a favorite storyline that you want to identify? So I'll give some of my top moments or quotes for all the folks in rapid fire fashion we're going to run through here. Just at the top level, I'll say, like, I don't really anticipate watching a season of interview with the vampire where Lestat, Louis, and Daniel aren't all at the top of the list

for me because it's just so good. Like, there's no reason to take them out of that level of adoration through the season two Lends specifically, though. Armand is the MVP of the season to me. I agree. I think Santiago would be maybe in the mix as like a runner-up, more of like kind of a fun vibes pick. But Armand is like, this season doesn't work if that performance and the reveal, the

peeling back of the layers of that onion doesn't land as effectively. And I was just riveted. And the journey of like empathy and simple. empathy and warmth and the way that you feel so, I felt so tenderly toward him and so many points for like this sense of always feeling like you're living in the shadow of the affection someone has for another person and you also add in the element of like the history you had with that vampire and, you know, this idea of living your entire life with someone else and we make so large over it is, I thought, really just compelling. And then that all that does

is enhance the wall up of the betrayal and realizing exactly what he did, which was just so upsetting and disturbing. And I think to your point, we were led there in a way where there's not a single part of you as a viewer. I don't think that's like, wait, what? I don't believe this, or I don't understand

how we got here. It's like it's all, it's just, it's, the harmony is perfect. So it's just great. It's interesting. I, you know, at the Austin Television Festival, I got the treat of talking to Assad, Zaman, and some of the people work on the show about, I think it was episode four,

but I was asking him, I was like, you know, Armand has existed for so long. Yeah. I understand the allure of Jacob Anderson, but what is it about Louis that has like Armand so enraptured? And I, he gave a great answer. You know, like this idea that like the Metro wants to be dominated

and all this other stuff like that like that's all. interesting to me, but I think what you're saying about, can I, Lestat who hurt me, who seduced me and left me, can I be bigger than him? Can I, you know, this is about his own personal injury and like, you can't follow Lestat as an act, but this is just like what Armand has been trying to do for 70 plus years and, you know, and how frustrating that would be and the way that episode five exists every single time he says fascinating to Daniel, that vitriol, that insecurity that comes with him lashing out is just so, so good, really good. I don't think I had seen Azad Zaman in anything before this.

Me neither, yeah. He is a breathtaking performer. Yeah, really, really good. Amazing. Okay, so let's go through these characters and your favorite moment associated with them. For Lestat or HeadStat, you can do one for Lestat and one for Headstatt or what you prefer, so what are you picking here. Okay, for Lestat proper, I will go with what I thought was perhaps the best line in television history. Can I guess?

Please. Is it Siri Paws? No, it's right in that same stretch, though. Siri Paz killing us, and we were cracking up. It's right in that same stretch from the finale. A wearisome fledgling. All the millennials are. Absolutely killed me.

Absolutely killed me. So that's my list not proper pick. For our head stat, I will go with rapid fire. I think just of all, there are so many choices from all the times that he is there in Louis' mind, but also in the space that we are watching Louis and Armagh. inhabits the other. And I think in particular, I enjoyed in episode three, on the Louis front, the more dramatic and intense,

when he's tormenting him across Paris and Louise's in the woods, and Lestat says, it's not, this is a person that Louis is about to murder, bashing his skull in against a tree. But we see Lestat saying to him, go on, kill me again, show me the only way you know how to love. That was brutal. And then on the comedy front in episode four, after Armand and Louie have have fucked and they're like,

you know, Louis in his underwear on the bed, stretched out. And Louis says, he's talking to Armand about like, what are they? Like the nature of their relationship. And Louis says, like,

what we got is great. And Armand said, says, it's just not a companionship. And then the Lestat in Louis's mind in hails a puff of the cigarette. So the smoke is in his mouth as he's saying, oh God,

how do you manage it? It's just so good. So good. And yeah, what are your picks? Do you have anything to consider? I mean, like, I do think the whole New Orleans, did you hurt yourself? Oh, my God. Like really, really soft, tender side of Lestat is unforgettable.

Really, really good. But I also want to call out the Lestat entrance that, like, he's coming and he walks across the catwalk and just, like, shucks him. his coat off. He's wearing like a three-piece pinstripeat soup that is just amazing. And he just dramatically like drops the coat off his shoulders as he's walking. And it's just like one of the campus things I've ever seen. But I was like, but I felt like I was ready to see Elvis. Like I was just like screaming Beatlemania style at home when it was just like, the stat's here. The realistat is here. We're so excited. And he's so good in the trial sequence, too. Really, really, really good.

All right. Louis, DuPont, Dulac, Jacob, Anderson. 10,000 contenders here, just an incredible heavyweight performance yet again. But I think because of how blown away I was by the finale, just finale, Louis, the decimation of the Coven, how he reacts to the Armandreville when Daniel blows up their lives in this lie. seeing him back in New Orleans while I'm seeing him wearing a saint's ad and taking the tour and yeah like you know especially again like the literalizing of like we've gone through their memories and then he's walking back through like you know haunting the steps of their old life

finding Lestad everything in that scene was incredible but I thought the end to the hammer of this season when he goes into the trance state to they're hearing the whispers of all the vampires who've read the book or heard gossip about what's in the book and they want to find Louie and hunt Lou down and he's like, here's exactly where I am. Yeah. Hear this now and hear it plain. I own the night.

It was just like close on his face. That gave me chills. Like that was amazing. So I don't, that had to be the top moment for me for Louie. It's just incredible. Similarly to like the way in which they worked Sam Reed into this season, I was really gratified to see by the season three trailer because there's like a version of season three that could have no Louis, very little Louis.

And they've clearly sort of arranged it so that they can preserve like these are our three main characters. And you're also going to get the experience of rock star list out. Don't worry about it. Okay. Armand. Oh, man. So it's just everything in episode five. I mean, the fight with Louie that we already talked about, my daughter was my sister, was my throat pillow.

Fucking brutal. Yeah. the way like both when he both he and santiago like put on the accent uh to make fun of louis very good wild um and you know obviously all the the everything of the clip that you played the list out the style the style the name unuttered in our home for 23 years all of that was incredible i thought the way that that fight ends and then transitions into the choice that louis makes and daniel piecing together the second the second closing of the door but what what armand says right before that is you threw her name around just for cover, but it always circled back to him. I loved her, but she didn't love you. Not like he did, not like I have. There's like something so true about that from a liar.

Yeah. But it's so brutal on it feels, as you noted in the fights episode, very like emblematic of and reflective of this type of fight that we love, which is like, how do you wound a person you know very well in the unique ways you can do that? And then I think, you know, the Louis scene,

but that both of the, everything with Armand and Daniel in the San Francisco sequence, but the two primary exchanges, the chair torture scene, the one you mentioned, like the fascinating conversation, all of those lines

and that clipped tone, like bartering with desire, is that what makes you fascinating? Just incredible. And instinct to self-efface, is that what makes you fascinating? All of that was so good. I was just riveted and rapped,

watching it. And then the rest, the rest conversation, the rest, the enchantment, was just haunting and gorgeous and disturbing and rapturing. And it's like quotidian details. He's like talking about Bakersfield and like, you know, an armchair and like, you know,

your, what is it, your wife counting down your thrusts and like, you know, all this sort of stuff like that. So like this way in which he studied what it means to be the most boring person in 1973 or whatever. And, and yeah, the repetition, throughout the season, something I noticed this time of this John Keats from Otoe Nightingale, easeful death, half in love with easeful death, or just the phrase, easeful death, comes up again and again this season. And so this idea of like Armand as the embodiment of easy death, easeful death, like rest, I am here to like make it all go away.

And, you know, and the way in which Daniel, you know, a man grappling with his own, I mean, no long now a vampire, but like immortality with his Parkinson's and having to grapple with the way in which his mind was like fucked with. And how much did that impact? You know, like when he's talking to Louis about like, I fucked up my marriage, I fucked up this, but I could always hold this job because basically this thing you said to, you know what I mean? Like how his entire life has been dictated by the way in which these two vampires fucked with his head over the course of a week in 1970. San Francisco is just incredible stuff, really, really good. Yeah, unbelievable. And I love that we, when Armand is saying all of those things to Daniel about his wife

and the disappointment and the mundane nature of his, like, lame existence, unfulfilling existence, we do not, we've seen him in the present day, and we've heard him say, like, I've blown two marriages, like, I've let down my daughter. So you carry that with you into, like, then what feels like a prophecy to your point. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's, but then you're like, it'll feel like a bath, rest like honey on your tongue. And you're just like, it's so gripping and great. That thing said, one of my favorite little details is that Daniel's like I am name is Pulitzeru too.

And it's just really good stuff. That brings us to Daniel Malloy. What do you want to say about either Begoghian or the younger version of Daniel? As you know, I love Begotian and like, dude, seeing him with wags at the end of the end, I was like Billions reunion. Let's go. I always think of that guy from Breaking Bad because I don't have the billions

first you have, but I love that guy. Yeah, he's the best. No shortage of... I mean, I think his just like acid drenched humor is always really entertaining and great. I guess I liked in episode five in the present day. I really liked when...

Daniel said, turns out I saved a copy in the cloud and Louis says you're a liar, Daniel. And then Daniel says, so are you, Louis, whether you know it or not. Like, I love those moments when he's standing tall in their presence, would it be so easy to shrink? And then, speaking of wax, I was dying during the TV interview. And he's like, you know, he's got the glasses on because we haven't seen his eyes yet. He's like, I've sold millions of these books more than Johnny Grisham or Prince Harry and the prisoner of Santa Barbara. Prince Harry of the Prisoner of Santa Barbara is so funny.

Because there's like so much language that's taken from the books, then you have these moments like the fledgling Millennials line or Prince Harry and the Prisoner of Santa Barbara. Like, they were... Contemporary humor for us. Yes, for us. So good. Great.

Especially, did I tell you about why the paper stock in our MCU book was like a little on the thin side? If you bought the MCU book, the hardcover, the paper stock was like a little thin, and that's because Prince Harry used all of the good paper. There was like supply chain issues around that time because of like COVID hangovers. And Harry had used all the really good paper for his book. So we got slightly shafted on that.

Thanks, thanks, Harry. Thanks, Harry. For me, the Daniel, I mean, there's so many options. But, and I don't have them on the list, but as you texted me, Justin Kirk shows up. as Raglan from the telemaska, you know, really fun stuff. Yeah. But Daniel's, it's a telenovela speech. Let's have a Univision night.

Like, is just extremely good stuff. Excellent. All right. Smeared in light blue eye shadow in Santiago. What do you like? What do you want to say? Better than, you know, better blue eye shadow than the ashes and his own spit that he's using to pleasure himself.

to scoffing at night. The intro in the theater that we already talked about, welcome to the displacement of reason and the excretion of pathetic desires. By that, I mean, good evening, wonderful stuff. Such a burdened beauty,

delectable, and how could we not nominate in episode eight when Louis is calling him to him and mocking the size of his manhood and Santiago replies. She only thought it was small

because my testicles are so enormous. As he's like flying through the sewers of Perry, extremely good, really, really good. I don't think I have much better, except I love the sequence where he's on stage acting. Oh, yes. And essentially waiting for Godot, like essentially an early version of waiting for waiting for.

for Godot, but he's also conducting the Covenant at the same time. So that idea that he can do this in his sleep, he can do this theater in his sleep while he's also conducting his other affairs. I like that a lot, too, just to show us his capacity. You know, that was, it's necessary. Also, the projection screen and the, that was just great. Yeah. Yeah, all the art.

Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Speaking of Star of Stage, Claudia. Lulu herself.

Lulu herself. I thought, yeah, man, there's a lot of really intense Claudia stuff. I, for moments, Claudia, annihilating Madeline's attackers, very memorable. I thought what Claudia said to Louie in episode six when she was trying to compel him to turn Madeline, It was really memorable, though. You were La Stats, now you're Armands, or Armand is mine.

I've been a third all my life. Not saying that to fight, just saying that it's true. I feel like I get to pick one thing for myself. And it's her. A weird white lady I met by happenstance. You have like the charm and the humor at the end, but I just thought that so effectively captured the totality of Claudia's existence and the contradictions inside of it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have provided me. me with this, the gift. You have granted me the gift and this different type of life and experience and a new family and you saved me, but in doing that, you doomed and damned me in all of these ways. And so I want a thing that is mine and makes me happy that I get to decide for myself. It was great. I love the thing that I would pick is sort of tangled up in Louis and Madeline as well, but it's when Louis in making Madeline sees how Madeline sees Claudia, where he says he sees her in a light that she could never have been in.

Like she would never actually be able to physically survive this. It's like she has this beautiful vision of Claudia and like golden afternoon sunlight. And it's just like all of that triangulated together. That's great. Leading into like we're just going to end here with Madeline, unless there's anyone else you want to bring in. And I will just say Madeline, a character they dramatically changed from the book who's like more of like a nurse made to Claudia and this is like a you know love interest for

Claudia but um yeah uh I will just say the conversation she has with Armand where she's eating that apple in a completely psychotic way and he's like well you eat people like you eat your apple or whatever but I just look how much she's holding her own with Armand in that conversation it was great you know and he's like trying to scare her and unsettle her and she's just like very sure what she wants and then her complete shell shocked reaction to the trial. Like having survived what happened to her after she made the decision to sleep with a Nazi during the French occupation, but the way when she was dragged into the street and her head was shaved and she was shamed and all this sort of stuff like that to have survived that

survived all of this persecution, being made immortal and then back in front of, you know, on trial again. I love her just like completely traumatized reaction. to all of that. The Achilles tendon snips during the trial. I can barely handle that. Nourly. Yeah. Very Circee-lanister-esque, you know,

walk of atonement with the shaving of the head. Yeah, my pickleb ewing went in that stretch where she is explaining her history and the decision that she made when she gets to the point where she's like, I just wanted him to cradle my tits. Yeah. And she was like, I didn't want Hitler to stay here, but I was like having such as a

scared 19 year old boy. And I'm not defending. I'm not. No, certainly not. I'm not defending. Sleeping with a Nazi. Absolutely not. Don't do that.

Don't do that. Don't. Don't. But I think this season makes an interesting case for us to listen to listen to when she talks about sort of why she did that and stuff like that. Okay. I'm repeating this question from the last time we did this last year, which is what, if anything, has this show taught you about marriage? This is sort of like Armand-Louis edition to say, are you now, A, excited to be referred to as MET?

Yeah, sure, of course. Or be ready to liken marriage to being smothered by the world's beige's pillow. Horrible. That was an incredible line as well, brutal. You know, real scenes from a marriage stuff throughout this show in a number of different respects. And I'm always here for it. It's difficult to spend an eternity with someone. That's my takeaway.

Yeah, 70-something years. Well, I just love the way in which they're, you know, you get the Armand and Real Rashid reveal of season one. But here in season two, and he's just like smugly sat by his side and they're just, like sitting there being like so secure in their performance. Yes. Of we are a happy couple. Yeah. And then Daniel being the just a genuinely incredible investigative journalist that he is.

And this is, we talked about this last time, sort of Daniel and his relationship to journalism. But like being a journalist is like such a heroic part of this season and his like inability to take the easy answer and his questioning and his just like listen to that door closing now listen to that door closing like i love all of that getting primary sources from the telemasca etc um all right looking ahead how excited i mean i just heard that you and adam already watched the trailer but how excited are you about season three is there anything in the trailer that got you like having i know you sat with me in uh in ballroom 20 at comic con intending to film your reaction and then accidentally filming my own lap from the substance

subsequent hour. And so you had already seen this without the context of season two, but how does the context of season two inform your excitement? So this is, I remember at Comic-Con seeing this and you were like, I mean, first of all, you were levitating, but you were exhibiting the cloud gift, you were levitating, right? But you were like blown away by how much footage they had already because they had just, if I want to say, if I remember, this might be wrong, they had been filming for like 15 days or something, right? They had like just started production. Yeah. Yes. So I was really, really like, Lestat as a rock star, I'm in. I don't really have a lot of follow-up questions, right?

I know I will come to understand how we get to that point. Okay. Rewatching the trailer, basically everything about it felt different to me, but only in an even more exciting way. It got a laugh out of me at the time, but just more because I so enjoy watching Louis and Lestat interact. But this time, when they're in the mediators. Retrition, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like, yeah, you know, and we sat there and, like, drew numbers on each other's backs and, like, pretended that we didn't know what they were in Gestrong. And then Lestat's like, I bet you. And now I'm like, I understand so much more deeply the jealousy in all directions in this love triangle. So, I mean, I really am excited for the season. And I already also, like, have that, that feeling that I love when I'm like, I'm excited to revisit and and rewatch already too, because I think there will be a new appreciation and, like, you know, when you can track the clues and the breadcrums, knowing where you're heading.

That's always really fun. So, yeah, maybe after season three. How much more is there going to be after that? I don't know. There's an opportunity because, like, Akasha, who gets a mention in season two, who they've cast for season three, like, they're doing the vampire listat, but there's also the queen of the damned, which is, like, Akasha's story. I don't know how much of that is in season three,

but that is connected to Listat, too. So, you know, there's an opportunity, I would say, for several more seasons because, you know, Lestat is Anne Rice's favorite creation, so she wrote plenty about him. I mean, I can't blame her. I get why. What has the experience of watching interview with the vampire season two

and season one, just like your journey through interview of vampire, maybe also informed by the season two and a half, two plus seasons of Buffy Vampires Slater that you've washed. Like, what does this tell you, taught you about me, Joanna Robinson in this gift exchange? I think that it's more affirmed, further cemented, something that I already knew, which is that you are a person of taste and quality. A scholar. And, you know, I think that the melding of different, like, tones and impulses inside of this universe, I think, is something that I know that you really appreciate. And, like, if someone said to me, do you think that Joanna would like a story

about hot vampires who basically, like, off the dome consistently just forge poetry in real time as they speak, and then also perform theater, and then are going to sing and dance, and also, you remember they play the piano? Nothing about that would surprise me at all, but I do love the particulars of the universe deepening my sense of what you love about those things and the different forms that they take, right? And like, obviously, Buffy is, you know, we'll keep talking about that, as you've said, the most formative to your very existence.

So that's a whole other thing. Do you, like having, you know, because you're not a horror person, not that you don't have exceptions. But like, this is, I think, some of the more prolonged exposure to vampire, you know, storytelling that you've gotten. Like, given your time with Buffy and now interview, like, if you hear about, are you, like, more implying to get excited about a vampire-centric story? Or, like, there's a world of vampism, like, a bit more interesting to you, or you just sort of like, this is very creative-specific, like, what Whedon did with Buffy, what Anne Rice and Roland are doing with interview is very specific. I've always, I think,

on the horror scope. Not a horror scope, but the scope of horror. Yeah. You know, I have my tolerance for the scary aspects, the violence inside of a fantastical monster story,

like a vampire story or a zombie story or something like that, is, I think I've always been able to process and stuff, like that a little bit more fully than like torture porn. Child's play, you know, which I saw when I was a kid and basically traumatized me for the subsequent, how old am I? 32 years or 30 years.

It was a second grade that I saw that in her fourth. Too young for my friend's older brother to show us that. I know that. So I, but I think like some of the really more overtly like this is a horror movie, vampire movies, I think would still scare me. but like, do I think I could see Noseferatu and be fine? I do. It's really good.

Yeah, I'm sure. I think I could handle that and I think I would really enjoy it and be glad that I saw it. So I also just think, you know, we've talked about this on a couple other pods, but like, I do think I'm able to, no, I know, watch this stuff a little bit more over the last couple years than I was, even as recently as like half a decade ago. So I don't know what has changed about that. But like, I used to be so reluctant to even attempt. The horrors of the real world have gone up.

Are so grave and severe. I mean, yeah, maybe. Maybe. All right. I'm about to hand the hosting role over to you because we're about to talk about about Avatar Fire and Ash. But I just want to share with our dear listeners that when I put together these notes last night, papyrus is not an option inside of Google Docs, which is where we house our

outline. But I simply could not bring myself to write Avatar Fire and Ash without the Pirates. representation. So I did screen grab it from the letter that James Cameron sent to projectionists at movie theaters about how to show Avatar Fire and Ash so that it could be represented here in all of its papyrus glory. So that's just a gift from me to you. Thank you. You're welcome. It's interesting that that's why. My assumption was that this was your version of like not saying Voldemort's name. Like if you could just kind of screenshot it and paste it rather than having to type it, you wouldn't have to.

have to like risk fully summoning it into your life. That was what I assume. It's already in me. All right. It is time for my gift to you, which I do not believe is a gift to you at all. It is, here is what the gift. The gift is that an Avatar movie, whatever everybody might think about Avatar, and we've got plenty to talk about on that front, is to this point has been an event, right?

Right? An event. We did not get to cover the way of water together. You did not see that movie in real time. And so it felt to me like any way that we can get, even just a few minutes to talk about Pandora, to talk about my beloved Pygón, the Tolcun, my favorite space whale. Actually, I really love the pergol. I'll have to think about how, who is actually my favorite space whale?

It's a crowded field. couldn't miss the opportunity. And so it's a gift really to myself, which is... The pergles can travel you like across space time. Yeah, hyperspace lanes. Yeah. But PiaCon, as I sent you many screenshots, you know, pictures of my TV of before you watched Way of Water.

Paya Khan sometimes goes, it's too painful. So... And then you get a close-up of his eyes. Also really great and meaningful. Yeah. So it's really a gift to the bad babies. And it's a gift to myself to get to share this with. you and, you know, is that selfish? Is it brazenly nakedly selfish? It is. But here's a thing. You know this

about me. I consider gift-giving a competitive sport. And so I'm always looking to come out of a gift-giving exchange feeling like I won in some way. Getting to talk about Avatar with you will feel like a win. I have plenty of notes on this movie and on this franchise, to be clear. I just like the fact that we're going to get to talk about it together for just a minute here. So that's why I have selected this. And also, I just frankly didn't think I could get you to watch Landman Season 2. Otherwise, I might have just run it back. Might have just run it back. I think I would have traded anything for you to watch

another movie vampire season two, which I know you would have watched anyway, but it's just like, you're so busy that like, you know, the idea of, is this for work, is a way to bump something up your watch list? It's true that is so depressing to hear that and have to confront it even though it is undeniable. Okay, Joe, let's set the stage here.

And by the stage, I mean the demonship. The stage for the theater of war That we will repeat across multiple films The Rocky Shore upon which I have washed up gasping With no sense of my former life Take a drink Here's me flying through the air with the ghost of my dead brother As I think about my former resistance to this franchise

In tatters and crumbles in front of me My beloved Lohawk My darling Lohawk I love him I do He's one of our favorites. I don't know who any of these people are. I will be your guide through this experience, okay?

Thank you. The water is warm. Is this my equivalent of Armand telling Daniel just rest? It'll feel like a bath. Easeful death. The easeful death of the Avatar franchise. The water's warm, and as far as I know, Spider has not yet pissed in it. He's still taking a drink first and complaining about the itchy suit that he stole.

Okay, Joanna. set the table for us here. What is your relationship in case anybody has not been able to glean it? What is your relationship to, well, we'll get to this movie in a second, but this franchise, the Avatar franchise, 2009's Avatar, 2002's Avatar, the Way of Water, James Cameron spending, literal decades of his career making the Avatar films, all in it. Honestly, I think it's like one of the biggest tragedies of the film industry. Oh my God. Then Jim Cameron, who made Terminator, T2, aliens, Titanic, the fucking abyss has been locked up by his own devices in Pandora for 20 years.

Okay, anyway, Avatar 2009 I saw in theaters and I fucking hated it. I had a really bad time with it. As you know, I'm like fairly allergic to mass amounts of CGI. And while I appreciate that there is different technology at work here, and I appreciate that Jim Cameron is someone who's been captivated by the ideas of pushing the boundaries on certain technologies. This is not beautiful to me the way that it is beautiful for a lot of people. A friend of mine who's an artist. She loves the Avatar franchise.

And I tried to get her to see Afire and Ash with me this week. And she's like, no. And I was like, oh, yeah, you like it. So you want to go and like enjoy yourself and not hear me piss and monobite. That's fair. I was like that. I understand that. But she loves it.

She thinks it's beautiful. Juliet referred to it as going to the platetarium. Just let the beauty of it wash over you. I don't think this is beautiful. I think this is ugly. And so if that's why people go, that is not here for me. So I hated 2009's Avatar. I went with a bunch of pals.

And then I just stood in the lobby and was like a real, like, bitch about it, honestly. And then spent like the next decade talking about how bad I thought Avatar was. And then they made Avatar the way of water. And I shirked my duty as a nerd versus pop culture podcaster. It did not go see it at all. And then we made this deal. Yep. So a couple weeks ago, week and a half go.

I had a friend coming over to watch Master and Commander and actually tremendous movie about water and I was like, well, I guess I'll do my water homework. And so beforehand, sort of like while I was cooking dinner and doing a couple other things, I put on Avatar Way of Water so that I could understand the basic plot lines of what happened in that movie so that I could not be completely lost when I got to Fire and Ash.

I was like aware of the Way of Water. Like I was aware this Gordy Weaver was playing like a teenage version. Immaculate Conception You know, whatever I knew That there was a white Mowgli kid named Spider I knew that Kate Winslet

Has somehow gotten herself Wrapped up in all of this Mishigas I did not enjoy a way of water But I didn't finally know what you were talking about When you were talking about the whales But I still didn't

fully grok it So that genuinely, when Sean and Amanda on the Big Pick, we're talking about the brain juice. Yeah. The whale brain juice. I'm reichita. I genuinely did not remember that that was, I don't know, the main plot point of Avatar Way of Water. And I had just watched it like a few days before. Yeah.

Unobtainium moved over. You know, Unobtainium's our big first movie McGuffin. Then we moved to brain juice, amber, gold, Omrita. And now it's air breather. Airbrillium. But the amoeira still here. But yes, exactly. The air breather.

Okay. So that's my relationship to the Avatar franchise. Do you have a favorite MacGuffin of those three? Like the Sky people are going to claim and take Pandora for McGuffin X, Unobtainium? I think it can't be the absolutely dumb fuckery of Unobtainium as a title for a Mcuffin. So I'll give it to Unobtainium. Yeah. Okay.

So what I'm hearing is that you don't love these movies. I think it's fine for people to like them. I think that's fine. Like, it's fine. Like, like what you like. I'm not here to tell you not to like it. You can love Avatar and that's great for you. Yeah.

I don't like it. And I wish Jim Cameron to make other movies. It's not my job to tell George R. Martin to write a book or Jim Cameron to make a movie. Like, they can live their lives how they want to and they are. but, you know, if I were matre of the universe, this is not what I would have Jim Cameron doing. So, yeah. So when Big Jim started putting onto the world recently, like, you know, yeah, movies four and five are coming were I think supposed to get them in 2020, 2029, 2021, but maybe not directed by yours truly. Were you like, fuck yeah, let's go?

I'm invested at last. In the liberation of Jim Cameron? Will that be the one thing that keeps you engaged with the Avatar universe finding out if Big Jim will direct the fourth film? No, you're just, when we hit end, we hit stop on our file, we send it to Carlos.

It's the last time you're thinking about Avatar. God willing, until you make me do my job again in 2029. Oh, my God. Incredible. You're the best. You're the best. My relationship to the Avatar franchise My relationship to the Avatar My relationship to the Avatar franchise is

I would say it's a living document Here's how it's evolved over time I saw the first movie and I was like that was sick That was sick Then I never thought about it again Like it's never been Yeah And I think that's a yeah

It's never been a have enjoyed watching the movies, but it's not a world where I'm like, and as you know, and as our listeners know, this is typically how we relate to stories. It's like, I want to learn everything. I want to know everything. The lore of Pandora. I want to sink in as fully as I can to the mythology. That's not been my relationship to Avatar, perhaps with the exception of like trying to learn more about the Tilcun so that I can understand my beloved Pia Khan better. When Way of Water

was coming out, I rewatched the first Avatar as many people did and I was like on one hand, this doesn't look nearly as good as I remember, which makes sense.

The passage of time, you know, as something you're watching at home, even on a nice TV, even with a nice setup, etc. It's different than in the theater

just the advanced business of technology over the years. But I was also still like, I'm having fun. You know, I'm having fun. Way of water.

are, I started to move into the, like, dissonance phase of my experience inside of the same thing with, like, I watched the movie, I'm having a great time, I leave, I don't think about it, other than nominating Piakon and our Verses that year for, I believe, the best magical creature of that eligible period. And I believe that other than Charles, everyone was like, I haven't seen this film, so I can't comment. But no, Van, Van definitely saw a way of water. He saw it, I think, a little later, though. Oh, okay. But perhaps that's apocryphal, and I've slandered him. And by the time of the Versa's, he was ready to chime in on Pyocon. I trust your memory over mine.

I don't. Certainly not anymore. My experience with Way of Water was this. Because it was the second installment in the franchise, and we had then a prior film to compare to it to. I still thought it felt like a moment, right? And obviously the box office bore that out. The first Avatar famously has made $2.74 billion.

Billion with a B, dollars. Way of Water has done. made $2.34 billion globally. These are two of the biggest movies ever made because there was such a massive gap in between them. When a wave of water came out, it was like, will anyone even care? Who knows, what's this going to be?

And then people flocked to the theaters in droves, and the movie was gigantic. And then didn't talk about it for two years. Well, but this feels so much sooner that even that like, oh, I can't wait to see, like, how has the tech advanced? will it be even more breathtaking than it was that I remember feeling the first time around.

Like, on the one hand, you know, a few years between movies is sort of like, in some ways, like, that's just like normal, right? But it's like, there wasn't the period of anticipation that there was between Avatar and Way of Water. So I'm wondering what impact that will have on just like box office yield and people's enthusiasm to be there on day one, though it's still an Avatar movie.

It's still a holiday movie where people have an opportunity to go. It is three hours and 17 minutes, but Way of Water was also north of three hours. I thought the way of water on the dissonance front was, in certain stretches, breathtaking. I think that middle hour, which is the part most people rag on, they're like, I don't need to see, like, Loak, the younger brother swim around with a whale. I'm like, this is great. Pass the bong. This is like dragon riding for you.

Yeah, very much so. And I really love that part of it. There are other parts of Way of Water that I quite enjoyed. I thought our first run around with, oh, a lot of these story beats are repeating was a little bit perplexing. Now that is, of course, only the truer. This is going to be an exponential thing, clearly,

as we reached the third film. So that's broadly my experience. I've had fun watching the prior two movies. I'm not like every minute in between I need to talk about and think about and learn about Avatar and I can't wait for the next one. But then I see one and I'm like, that was pretty dope. And that is what I brought into seeing this.

You seemed a little down. I don't know if it was just a performance for my benefit. You seemed a little down on Fire and Ash when you got out of it. Oh, that was just about the first two. That was just about the first two. So Fire and Ash, which, you know, we're recording this on a Friday morning. So we don't know really anything about how it will do box off. So as the tracking.

So $12 million on Thursday previews tracking. Uh-huh. domestic, 340, 350, 350, 360 projection for the international

yield. So seems like this will be a popular movie again. Will it be as successful as the prior to?

Will it hit the threshold that big gym needs it to hit in order to keep directing? We'll see. Rotten tomatoes

68% from critics, 91 from the popcorn meter so far and Metacritic is sitting at 61 and 6.9. I would say that that 68-ish Rotten Tomatoes mark and 61 Metacritic mark feels really right to me.

So we went to the screening a few weeks ago. Right. In 3D. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was funny because, you know, when you're there with both the Ringervverse crew and the Big Pick crew, you really get the whole, the full gamut of responses to something. And that felt as appropriate as ever here. You know, some people left and were like, that was really great.

I had a great time. And some people were like, what the fuck was that? And I think Sean and I had similar reactions, which is like falling very much in between where I think there's even in Fire and Ash, which is my least favorite of the three, comfortably. And I think it's the least successful and frankly just the least good of the three, comfortably.

There's like 30 to 40% of the movie where it is reaching such a high either the kind of visual aspect of how does the water look or some sort of aspect of like the wind trader set piece. Yeah, the airships. Yeah, you're like, wow, cool, what a cool thing to sit in a movie theater and see this. There were a couple emotional beats that I was impacted by,

you know, watching Lohawk after Jake, his father says to him, like, I do blame you, actually, for your brother's death. And if you hadn't done this, like, he would still be alive. And then Lohat goes out and takes the rifle. and contemplates killing himself. I was, like, moved by that, watching that. I had a moment of, like, well, Avatar, I don't know. This is stupid thing that I get tied up and who cares?

But I'm always like, who is this for? And I'm like, it was like when we were watching Stranger Things, Volume 1 and they, like, Vecna shoves his, like, rudy tendrils through a guy's face. And I was just like, hope the kids enjoyed that. I was just like, I know that there's always been cat people fucking each other in this universe, so I don't know this is ever like supposed to be four kids, but certainly kids go to Avatar. I was like, are kids going to enjoy the like suicide contemplation beat of this episode?

Maybe. Maybe it's something that they need to see. I don't know. I think completely fair. I think that in terms of like this idea of obviously the story is just going to take place across decades of the Sully family's existence on Pandora and certainly, and obviously this is actually just a massive issue in terms of. of the plot and the pacing of these movies. It seems like Cameron is very interested in just saying, well, there's going to be like a plot. It's going to end up being the same one as in the prime movies,

but there's going to be a plot. But mostly this is like, what's the rhythm of life here? And so that aspect of like, how is this family functioning and what level of like resentment and distance is... Who's racist this time? Exactly. Exactly. You know, so there are highs and there are things about it I like.

Then I think there are really actively confounding stretches of it. many of which fall into the bucket of just like, why are we making the same movie over and over again? And so there are parts that pull you out of that because they're interesting to watch. But like, you know, I do think that the new element of the Ash tribe, this idea of dissent among the Navi that not every resident of Pandora would want exactly the same thing

or have the same history or relationship to AWR, relationship to the planet. and certainly not the same relationship to the potential like alliances with someone like Quarach. I thought that actually felt fresh and interesting and I wish that that had been more of the movie than it ended up being.

But we get then a lot of repeating beats like an Earth temptation, McGuffin, Jake, Jake Uniting the Tribes again as Tarok Makto and literally having to say like, and so again, you know, and we get a few things like that is pretty rough. A sky person, you know, in this case,

Spider wanting to become a member fully of the Navi, all of the AWA stuff, the nearly identical final battles. Like, I was very surprised by how, given the introduction of this idea of fire and ash, like that it was the way of water battle, again, just with more. Whales, this time? Yeah. Yeah, more, more demonships. So that's just really perplexing, especially when the movies are so long.

Like, if so much of them is going to be similar. It's almost like they never had a good story to tell ever. None of the archetypal aspects of the story appeal to you at all, because the specifics are just so not to your liking. I think it's possible that I just don't like a family saga, like a saga of a family told over decades of... Interesting. Do you know what I mean?

My resist is to the Taylor Sheridan verse, it feels, of a piece. You're like, I don't want to know how the Dutton's got this ramboy. Damn it. I don't. I don't give a shit. I don't want to know how the Dutton's made it to Montana.

I don't want to know how the Yellowstone Dutton Ranch came to be. And I don't want to know where Tuk is going to end up by the fifth film. Even when the performances are good, like I think Zoe Saldana

is very good in these movies. She's fantastic. Yeah. Oscar winner, Oscar winning star of Amelia Perez here. I'm just resent that a good actor, like, David Thulis shows up in this movie. Love him as you know.

Recognizably Thulising his way through this CGI. And I was like, how the fuck did they get Thulis? Like, Thulis who is like, and I know it's, I know the answers, I know the answer's money. But like, Thulis who's like an actual, like, Thespian. I mean, I know he was in the Harry Potter movies. But like, he does shit, like, the shit that he did in Fargo. No, but like, in Fargo, he's. doing like a really weird, cool performance.

As Lupin, he does like a weird loopin in a great way, you know? But then like his early career was like super punk rock. Like I was just like, Thuleas. What are we doing here? Anyway. Maybe he was trying to bring some of that punk rock to Pandora. And then you have someone like Sam Worthington who is like, I think one of the worst actors we've ever been grace with, just the most potato person ever.

And this idea that he's like this compelling, charismatic, leader of Uniter of Tribes, this guy? Jake? Yeah. Yeah. His name is Jake. My Jake. My Jake. My Jake. Jake. Jake. Jake, Sully. My Jake. Where are you on Quarge? Where are you on Quarge these days? I think it's really irresponsibly lazy to kill and resurrect a character over and over again. Like, what are we even doing here? That being said, Stephen Lange, I think, is really, like, fun in this role. But, yeah. He's great. I think. thought in Way of Water, when we realized that he would be returning to the story in the form of an avatar,

I was like, wow, okay, we're really running it back. It's just going to be Jake versus Quarach again. And of course, that is also true in this film with a slight twist of a couple teamups inside of it. He has a whole section where he was like, you brought me here. This is my one mission. This is very like Jake is his like white whale sort of thing. But I was like with my complete disinterested. disinterest in like study

rewatching Avatar which I have not done like I'm not feeling that's my fault I'm not feeling the connection to this character and his motivations what about the connection between Quarich and our new villain Una Chaplin is here

I mean a thrill for us obviously a throne's fans great character design and she's great great I like the character it's very like Iroquois warrior sort of tattoo design. I thought it was really, really cool. I think it's cool to have an antagonistic

Navi. I mean, like, the Water Tribe was already, like, somewhat antagonistic to our folks last season. Last season, last movie. But to have, like, active war between the Navi, I thought was really good. I was confused. Now, listen, you have not asked me about this yet, but I will just say, I already put on Instagram, like, I got incredibly high while watching this movie. Yeah. That was my next question. Who was more loaded during this film Quarach or you? You know, he got the nose candy.

He got the puff, the horn puff of like the scarecrow of fear toxin slash LSD. Right? He got that from our beloved Vara. You never go nostril to nostril. Like that's just not something that I would personally do. But listen, I told you, I've told you already. So a pal of mine brought me some like weed gummies on Sunday. we did Lord of the Rings thing.

And I was just like, oh, I will take these weed gummies. Sure, of course. To go see Avatar and I'll have a better time. Yeah. I, uh, I, I went just like full I don't want to be here was sort of my attitude yesterday. I told you already, I went in joggers and slides. I never leave the house in joggers and slides.

Like this is just a real like, yeah, like the floating chair people in Wally sort of experience for me where I was just like, I was just like, I want. went like in scrub mode. I went to the back row of the theater. My chair reclined. I had popcorn. Oh, you have down a recliner. Yeah.

And Diet Coke and weed gummies. And I was just like, let's... This sounds like at the perfect evening to me, honestly. Deeply off my usual vibe when I go to the movie theater. But I was just like, so did I responsibly watch this movie with the entirety of my focus for all of the

hours that I was there? I would say no. And I would say that there are some. plot points that you've put in our outline today that I have no memory of having it happened. And I will say if you're curious when I went to the moon. Yeah, yes. Tell me. I would say in this sequence, when Quarach gets incredibly high and he's tripping.

And he sees her in like a psychedelic glow, I had to start closing my eyes because I was too overstimulated. I see. So, and I had trouble, I would say, really focusing for the. rest of the movie. And I think that's like two-thirds the way through the movie, would you say? No. A lot happens.

No, they're at the water tribe for a while, then they get on the airships and they get attacked by the fire people and like the kids are lost and like, you know, she's been shot and Jake trapped them. And like, you know, yeah, there's like a ton of shit that happens. There's several sequences where the kids are

either running through the jungle or in the water and all they're saying is like, come on, keep up, don't fall behind. Like, that's all that's happening. You're right that a ton of stuff happens before Quarge makes his way to that clan and goes into the tent and gets high. But even more happens after. I really think that's halfway through the movie.

I'm going to say that that's like, if I had to guess, I would say that's an hour and 15 into three hour 17. I don't think so. We'll find out when we'll watch it on streaming. or 4K Ultra one day. Were you tapped in? Were you locked in when they were later on draped naked and entwined,

curled up with each other and the throes of their love making? My eyes were open for that part. I did see that. I bet. I'll say this. Before I lost the plot of this movie, I was stunned. I remember all the like,

this is for furry jokes about Avatar and I remember that they like, You know, communal head-tail fuck in the first movie or whatever, but I was ill-prepared. There's something about how long their torso's is. Torso's are. I was ill-prepared for how often they are like swaying and grinding and helping and just sort of undulating around in a way that I'm just like, Jim, you sick little fuck. Like this is just, yeah, this is a deeply porny franchise in a way that, like,

Like, I kind of do, but I really understand this time. Yeah. We'll be coming back to that. I'm pleased to tell you. Great. Stay tuned for more. I mean, I know you want to talk about Curie in death, but I will just say that there's like a moment where Curie in one of her many,

like, I'm communing with the Earth moments, is like grasping this like glowing magenta beam thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With both hands. Sure. Yeah. There's no non-sexual explanation for what I was saying. there. And she's like supposed to be.

Got to wait until the fourth movie until that's actually Spider's cock, you know? She's supposed to be like 14? How old is she supposed to be? Um, I don't know,

we can get to that later. She is supposed to be a tween? How old is Spider supposed to be? Played by a 76-year-old woman. How old is Spider supposed to be? I actually, so I googled this this morning.

He, so Jack Champion, the actor, is 21 right now. So I guess when they were making this, he would have been like 19, in the first movie, because that was a couple years ago, so he would have been like 15, 16, I guess, in the first movie if the ages are comparable.

Well, they, like, yeah, and then, because he's a, so, I mean, he's a baby. The canon, right, is that he's, so he's, he's, he's a gorgeous kid, and in Way of Water, there's that line, like, you know, you can't put babies in cry oh, dip shit if memory serves. So he's a baby in the events of the first movie. oldest kid that Jake and Sally have. Correct. So an old teen, at least.

Yes. And she's 14. And they're like... But she's... Split by a 76-year-old woman. That's the part I'm more hung up on. The way they're just, like, coiled around each other this whole movie, I was... And they were raised his brother and sister.

Like, all of it is just flowers in the attic to me in a way that I'm not having a great time. He's supposed to be six... about 16, it seems, in way of water. The problem with period, the problem with her being 14 is that Sigordi Weaver's playing her oftentimes as like 12. And so it's like...

And a thousand. Yeah, a thousand. Like the ancient wisdom of AWA, you know? It's like unbelievable stuff. On the spider front, let me ask you this. Now, maybe this is... Maybe this prompt is null and void because even though you mentioned

the like awareness of Spider Spider was not really a part of your life until a couple weeks ago. But if I had asked you, before we knew, before we had sat down and watched this movie and seen it and we knew when we understood that Spider was,

I would say the protagonist of this movie, the center of the movie, if I had said to you like, okay, Joanna, across any franchise, any film, any work of creation, yeah, throw out there as many nominations as you can come.

come up with for like most surprising character to orient a story around. How long would it have taken you to get to spider? Aren't you, didn't you tell me? I did. I was like, just heads up. He's the maker. You're the one who told me this in the office and it was a real like, she can't be serious moment. And then I started watching the movie and I was like, oh, no, he is. Right around when he got like covered by Mossy Massilium, I was just like, yeah, he's the most special boy in all the world. And it's both the McGuffin Air Brewer, Breeder plot stuff, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the RDA Giovanni or B.C. Parker Selfridge character, you know, they want to be able to, like, take this mutation, this evolution of his DNA and ensure that the human race can then occupy Pandora. And for everybody else, it's like, we can't let that happen. So he's the plot center. But he's also in many ways with Kiri's obsession with him and focus on him.

And Nateri's racism. death pursuit. And then Jake nearly killing him. And Lois being like he's my brother. Yeah, he's this emotional center of the movie too. And Quaric Are you telling me that it's... That interminable

like the mask is counting down plot is only like an hour of this movie. I think so, yeah. It felt like nine hours of my life. That might be like 45 minutes, honestly. That's fine. I'm serious. Who would do?

were to remake this movie, who would you make the main character? Loaq. And I'd say he's like, yeah, Loaq, who's not very present, but to me it's one and the same. And that's part of why. Because I think this, they're brothers. They're brothers. While watching this. Their brothers, exactly.

But I think that that is a, wait, are you saying a boy in his bond to a magical creature? It's the thing you are most interested in. I know it's shocking for you and all of the bad babies to hear that. Because I love a witch. which stuff. Yeah. If Keri were just played by a person and not a centigenarian, acting like a 12-year-old, but also in a thousand-year-old.

Oh, my God. Dying right now. Doing her damnedest to hump a white dreadlocked boy, but also humping the earth at various times. Oh, yeah. Like head-tail bonding with the earth. Yep. That can't be sanitary.

Um, cute, be my favorite character. Okay. I mean, I feel like that's where we're heading with this, is that Kiri is actually like the central focus of where we're moving. That seems to be very interesting to big gym. Sequarty, maybe they don't even need her to be there anymore. They have enough, like, pixel, you know, AI information. That's just something I wanted to ask you.

On the Kiri-Sigarni-Weaver front, I want to know what your favorite thing. Because, like, you don't want to think about how, You just want to be lost. You want to be lost in the experience of watching the movie. You don't want to be thinking about how they're making the movie

until you get to the phase of appreciating the craft. Okay. So now I ask you, what is your favorite thing to imagine knowing how the movie's made 76-year-old Sigourney Weaver

doing while wearing a mocap suit and tiny dots all over her face? I'm going to give you some contenders. You're free to add anything else you'd like. orgasm whirling Oh John

About the dying spider Okay That's one Spider just flat out Kissing spider Why couldn't I just Have Had you reenact

Fire and Ash for me It's not too late Once I have more confidence In the runtime markers And where every story beat Actually occurs I will reenact I'm gonna need you to do the last hour

Or to your mind Two hours of the movie for me All right. Orgasm whirling above a dying spider. Kissing spider. Just full on kissing spider. Shouting, and I got to be honest, I think this one's tough to top. And this one got a not very generous, raucous laugh from everyone in the theater, I will say.

I'm a clone? That really sucks. Pushing her way toward a giant, floating face that I have to imagine was a tennis ball on set or of course hissing which is your favorite thing to imagine sigourney weaver in her mocap dots and suits sorry i just had to google image search sigory weaver behind the scene so i could like look more carefully at the uh at the mocap suit well here's the deal i was thinking about this a lot actually because like obviously her face is mapped here like you can see sigourney's face oh yeah I continue to think that this part of it on the technology front is very good.

This is her voice performance. Yes. She is acting 12, but does not sound ever 12. Sounds like every single digitally de-aged person where it's just like, that's an old man. That's De Niro's old man voice. Why is it coming out of this de-aged Irishman, like, etc. But the agility that Kiri shows with love and respect to, however, tight Sigourney has kept it these years,

like there is an agility to that character that is simply not available to a 76-year-old body. So my question is, I mean, they had to have a body double-tube, so did they have to double film every single scene, sort of like, as they did with Andy Circus and Gallum, like, where it's just like Sigourney does it one time and then the body double does it another time. That's, you know, so they did with Will and young Will in the Stranger Things thing, right? Like Noah did it, and then the young boy that they hired to play a D-aged, Will did it. I don't know.

I just got tired watching that. I was like, all for what? Why couldn't we just cast an actress in this role? Why not? By the way, there's an interesting link between an interview with a vampire because the reason that the original Claudia actor, I think the reason that the original Claudia actress couldn't be in season two is because she's an avatar and she was busy filming Avatar. Oh.

Isn't she like Kate Winslet's daughter, the Water Tribe? girl. She is. Rea. Yep. So fucking up yet another thing, Avatar. What is my favorite thing? I think it's the orgasm whirling. I would pay so much money to see the behind-the-scenes footage. Even if they did it again with a lie their body,

I'm sure they made Sigourney do this, and I would like to see it. Yeah. Thanks. I mean, we're not running. We're not jumping. We're just, we're just grinding. Swirling. Yeah.

and moaning? A lot of money. And trembling. Quivering. Incredible. Too messantly. Anyway. Incredible stuff.

Let's see. Did you have, dare I ask, a favorite set piece battle sequence? Any of the action stuff like popped for you? Well, so what I remember. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yep. Is the attack on the airships.

I definitely remember that because that happened in the first hour of the movie. That was cool. That was my favorite, actually. It seemed like. there was like three different battles that happened at the end of the movie. That stretch is, and again, some of it in isolation is very cool. I think the eclipse, you know, we know how the cycle of time works on Pandora. Like the fact that you could get night inside of a day battle is like very cool visually.

I just can't. To me, I think the, if you were to pick one detail to say like, we really ran it back, huh? Brendan Cowell's Captain Mick Scoresby coming back after, I thought definitely dying in way of water when his arm is like cut off by a cable and then he shoots out of the arm. Yeah, and then he's just back,

but with a bionic arm to do the exact same thing, which is like, now, the UD Falco character and the RDA like military arm is much more present in this movie, not in an effective way, I would say. say, but so the battle is bigger and more people are involved. But the fact that we're just like the guy who wants the whale brain juice is like, still wants the throne with front with a harpoon again.

Yeah, it was very, very, very strange. What does RDA stand for? You can't just throw around RDA 900 times of this podcast and not know what it stands for. That's the name of their company. I know, but what does it stand for? This is a good example. Not with any other story, I'd be like, I need to know. And with avatars never occurred to me to find out.

Never occurred to me to find out. But his dad, we know, is the chairman. Giovanni's dad is the chairman. And, you know, there was the power struggle in this film where the general, Idi Falco's character, not only is she to Quar and she's like, you've aligned with the locals, like, you've lost the plot, you're out. And he's like, I'm going to come rescue you anyway. But then I'm going to align with Jake again. And then I'm going to tell a spider that he's dead to me and I should let him go,

but I'm going to save him again. I remember all of this. We have the conflicts between basically the corporate brass who, where they're to make money in mine, and the military arm who's like doing basically the like, you know, the, Resources Development Administration is what RDA stands.

Okay, so the unobtainium of a corporate name where it's just like, Generic thing here. Sure. Got it. The, I thought the stretch at the base

when they brought Jake back there was pretty bad. Okay. Pretty bad, I got to say. That was nothing. was compelling to me. Whale stuff go? Anything else on the Pi-a-Con front that you'd like to add? I thought that, as usual, Pyocon was amazing. I thought that the introduction of Tannuk, poor sweet injured Tinnock was very moving and sad. What's the difference between the Tocoon are having like an elders meeting and they don't want to fight, but then guess what they do come to fight? How is that

not just the ends running back the ends? I mean, what a generous comparison to make, frankly. I'm astonished. I can't believe you've invoked something that you're holding such esteem. I don't know if you could call this a set piece, but plot-wise. Yeah. I did enjoy the section where Jake and Quirich have to, like, unite to find the kids. Yeah, that was good.

They're, like, brief detente. But then they're, like, captured by the Ash Tribe. And then immediately Quarich is like, let me show this woman who has to be captured how to work this gun. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because he wants to fuck her, I guess. But why would he give her that power? I think initially it's like the practical, I will prove I have utility. Yeah.

And then immediately she's like, I don't need you anymore. And he's like, oh, no. And then they escape and they say, I'll bring you more stuff to prove to do you need me. I'll give you more reason to be independent of needing me. PyCon, let's go back to Pi-a-Con. There's a moment when Pi-a-con gets banished. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

And he turns his shoulder and he says, and you help me remember this, in papyrus font, you will never hear my song again. Never again. Yeah. It's sad. It's not because you know that that's not true, that he's definitely coming back before the movie's over because there's still nine hours of the movie left. So then it's just like, you're like, what's the point? You will never hear my song again. Slow shoulder to a dramatic teenage exit for Pi-a-Con.

Yeah. I laughed so loud and no one else in my theater was laughing. I turned to Adam with like a, you know, one of the like, clover choices. So, you know, Pyocon, he's been, he's been outcast. I know, they just call him outcast. That's just like his name. Yeah, they're really.

Oh my God, that really got me. So this idea, from the way of water, you know, the way of water has no beginning or no end. I don't know if you remember that from the second film. That's how about it. It's definitely on the phone. You're on fire. You're the fire at Ash today. My goodness.

This tragedy, this absolute injustice that he has been outcast from the community for doing, for standing up to defend. Yeah, the tragedy of the loss of his mother and everything that happened when he was a pup. and it's horrible. And I do think there's an interesting thing to parse in the messaging of the story where it's real like, war, let's go. But obviously there's something about defending your home and your family. Passivism is for pussies, don't you think? War is good, actually.

See, this was a gift to you. You're having fun. You're having fun. Sometimes you have to make your own fun, you know? Exactly. I will say. Hmm. I thought that the.

The, so this like this, this story of Pyocon and the bond, it all oriented around the idea that even though he did it for the right reason, the fact that he did it, it's, he's not a part of this thing anymore. I thought that the way that they eventually convince the elders, I'm like, I know I get it. They're all, they're bonded, the clan and the Tocoon. But kind of like, why do they care? Yeah, for someone who might have been.

I'm outcast too? Why would the elders care about that? For someone who might have eaten too much THC at that moment, what do they do to get the whales back in? I remember the part where they all circle up. Yes, and it's like a big thing. They come in, and so Loak and the Met Cahina kids, so Rea and the two boys, all four of them are like,

I and my brother. It's correct. Yes. The kids and their bonded Tolcun are all like, will be outcast too. And that seems to be compelling in a way that is a little surprising to me because I don't know why they would, even though the bond of the community is,

the bond with Piacon wasn't enough for them to care about sacrificing it. Kind of thought they'd be like, all then fuck off. But they didn't say that. I think also obviously seeing Dear Sweet Tanuk with all of the harpoon prongs and the balloons, that was the blind witness to their end, Joanna, you were not moved to tears by that. And, of course, they were moved.

They were moved to action by seeing the seeing, undeniably in front of them, the horror, the atrocity that the sky people have inflicted with their metal. By the way, the like, you put metal in your hand thing, on the one hand, didn't make sense to me at all, I will say. Not at all. That Jake, in the same, not just stretch of the film, not just, not just stretch of the film, moment.

The same exact conversation. He's like, I'm not going to be to Rukh-Mock-2 again, because when you become the last shadow, you become the beast. Yeah, you take the beast. You become the beast. And then he's like, I would really like everyone to start using these guns

and exploding arrows. Didn't quite track the logic there. But I do, I thought the like, you know, the way that they talk about like the guns, the metal, the bullets, very like Eli and witness, you know. With the gun of the hand? You bring fear in this house? You know the part that I really liked?

Tell me. When the bow was broken and they remade it, I like a re-forged weapon. Again, it's Loweck. Another mark in Lohawk's favor. He's a great character. That happens. The heartbeat of the movie. In the first hour?

Was that in the first hour? That's pretty early. Okay. Yeah. That's pretty early. I mean, they're like back in the, yeah, they're, it's, it's, yeah, that's early. Well, but actually. That's when they come back to the wall.

Yeah. Because they've discovered it early. And Jake is like, fuck that. I told you. Yeah, that's early when he's like, we're looking for guns. But then when it makes its way back to Natari, and she's like, you know, your son has the ancestors in him. Yeah. That's later.

Lovely stuff. What else? What, if anything, has this film taught you about marriage and family? Does House of Ar stick together? Does House of Ar never quit? You know, just like the Sully's. Can House of Ar live like this? I feel like.

And hate? I feel like me being here. Yeah. For you. Yeah. That's our Sully's never quit. Solis stick together. Well, shows my dedication to you.

I agree. But also, did I come with a bad attitude? Yeah, so I apologize. I did not come with my heart open to the franchise. But I did want you to have the ability to talk about. I appreciate it. Or, wait, hold on. Tett Tannok, a character I definitely remember.

Do you like any of the other magical creatures? Do you like the E-Kron, the flying banshees? Did you like the new squid demons, the judges of the deep? Oh, you know who I liked? You know who I liked? I didn't like it. I don't care about any of that. The skim wings?

No. Is that what they are? The trilobites that are flying the airships. And then when the airships get attacked and the ships are like, basically dragging them down and they're like fluttering in the air. Yeah. I thought that was really good. That was sad.

Sad, but like, I was compelled for the first, for first time, perhaps. by a mythical creature inside of this land. Okay, so you will not be day one. Joggers, slides, weed gummies, reclining seat in the theater in 2009. I think I'm never having those weed gummies again, if I'm being honest with you. I had to sit in my car for a while after the movie was over. No. I was like a short drive home, but I was like, I don't think I should for a minute.

it. Will I be day one for Avatar for not unless you ask me to go with you physically to the theater. I will sit next to you and hold your hand. That would be great. That would be great. But I don't know if you want me there

because I'll also, I'll be there and I'll hold your hand, but I'll also have a bad attitude. So, you know, if you want that, you come and claim it. This is this, if Avatar Fire Nash was not a movie that I considered a modern masterpiece. Just a movie I wanted to see and then talk about. Yeah. And we have. God damn it, we have. No, we have. And do you feel like you got to talk about everything you want to talk about?

Is there anything else that we should, like, lore-wise, character-wise, magical creature-wise? I thought the baby was really cute. Prill, sweet little prill, the baby. I thought that the- I remember that part and that happens late in the movie. Very, very late. The swore pregnancy tits. Holy shit.

Kay Winslet, free from the Avatar franchise, and I was happy for her. I feel like she pulled a real Harrison Ford. No, not free titting. I felt she filled up a real Harrison Ford where she was like, I'll do this, but you have to kill me so that I don't have to do it until I'm 76, like Sigordi Weaver.

I mean, she was in two of the three. You know, she put in her time. Yeah, so free from the franchise. Not free, like, okay. And so not the Renault pregnancy tits. Got it. I mean, I'm happy to talk about those more if you want to.

Do you think he's going to get Leo for four and five, having now gotten Kate on board and Sigourney? What would you want to see Leo do in the Avatar universe? I want him to play a whale. I think he should play a whale. And Leo cares a lot about environmental preservation, so I think maybe we could talk him into it. You know what I mean?

Pyocon forms Pussy Posse 2.0 out in the open sea? Why not? Did you have each of us saying pussy on this podcast on your holiday gift swap? To be perfectly honest, I never rule it out. It's not a word we fling around a lot, I would say. I had fun today. Good. Thank you for doing this in the gift-giving spirit of holiday generosity and shared experience.

You're a trooper. You know what? You're welcome. I love you. And I'm sorry. It was just hard to get me to do my job. Thank you to Carlos as well. the best.

We'll be without him for... I mean, what a compliment and what an honor and a well-deserved one. We'll be without Carlos over the Christmas week. We'll miss you, Carlos, for the stranger things calling you too. Happy holidays, you're the best. And then we'll be back with you, I believe, for New Year's Eve. New Year's Day podcasting. Joe, who else do we need to thank?

Oh, our January McA Powell, why not? Always, always. Our Paiacon and Joe Mee and Dinner on our Pai Con. I just can't remember a single other character's name. All. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly, big board buck slot machine by aristocrat gaming,

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