House of R - The House of R Hall of Fame: Loki

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

This pod is burdened with glorious purpose! It is time for Mal and Jo to usher you into House of R's first Hall of Fame episodes and its first inductee Loki of the MCU. They break down the character and history of Loki not only in film but in all of mythology (05:31) and how it informs his place in pop culture. Later, they each give out their own superlatives such as Best Speech, best Line Delivery and so much more (53:11). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am Loki of Asgard. and I am burdened with glorious purpose. Loki, brother of Thor. We have no quarrel with your people. An ant has no quarrel with the boot. Are you planning to step on us? Greetings and welcome to House of Our The Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network.

I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you, not only, back to the TVA, but also to join us on House of Our's new podcast feed. Joining me today, now that she's finished announcing that she's surrounded by variants of herself plus an alligator, which she's heartbroken to report she didn't even find all that strange. It's my House of our...

Her money title. Co-host Joanna Robinson. What's up? Hey, reindeer games. I thought you were going to say, what's up bad babies? What's up bad babies? We are burdened with glorious purpose and we are here today for our first House of Our Hall of Fame. We're going to explain what that is shortly. We will be celebrating Loki Lalfeison as our first inductee into the House of Our Hall of Fame. And we're doing this, of course, on the eve, on the brink of Loki Season 2. But before the Avengers try to stave off our ascent to God King. Some quick programming reminders.

The feeds are popping. There's a lot going on. Over on the ring or verse, the midnight boys. Mewp-Mew! We'll have two instant reactions this week. First, on Tuesday night, they will be with you for the Asoka finale. Then, on Thursday night, they will be back with you. Mere days later for the Loki premiere.

double dose of boys this week. Incredible stuff. We will also have podcasts on both of those episodes of television. We will have our House of Our Deep Dive on the Asoka finale at the end of this week, and then just a couple days later, come on back to the feed because we'll be here with our deep dive into the Loki premiere. Joanna, how can the people follow all of that? Great question. Listen, I suggest Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, or Twitter, don't call it X, all great options. Jomi is doing... the Lord's work, the trickster God's work over on social media. Plus, if you want to make sure you catch Mallory Rubin's absolutely phenomenally viral tweet

that encompasses Succession fandom, Taylor Swift fandom, and the NFL, you might want to check out Twitter. Also, why don't you just subscribe to the pod? That might be something you want to do. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Furthermore, what I would really encourage you to do is email us from time to time at Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com. We don't have any Loki emails this week because we're sort of sprung this on you, but Loki season is here.

So, you know, get them ready. Get your Loki takes ready. If you're rewatching Loki Season 1, you will enjoy a Green Apple moment at the end of all time. So, you know. Yeah. Something I think about. Something to think about. It is.

I love that. As you'll all shortly recall, the showrunner of that very season, then later came on the ring ofverse with a red apple. Former mea culpa. Formal. Wonderful stuff. We have a gif and everything. That moment predates the Apple Wars. It has nothing to do with the Apple Wars.

Absolutely null and void. Okay. All right. You know, it's a kind of travel story. Unless you're trying to make Apple Wars reverb all the way back through history. then, you know, we can discuss. Don't they? Don't they? All right.

Folks, as you can probably tell, the spoiler warning today applies to Loki and it applies to anything that's ever had to do with Loki in the history of the MCU. Obviously, all of Season 1 of Loki is on the table today. All of Loki's appearances in the Marvel Cinematic Universe to date are on the table today. We're going to get into a little comics canon just briefly.

We're going to get into a little mythology corner just briefly. Nothing from Loki season 2 will come up today because we have no idea what happens in Loki. Season 2. We may talk about a little bit of like the trailers and just anticipation, but details, no, that's coming in the instant reaction and the deep dive off of episode one. This is just everything that's already aired. But that's a lot because Loki has been with us for more than a decade of MCU goodness. Your saviors are here. It's time to pot. Joanna, think the place that we need to start is what is the House of Our Hall of Fame.

what is this new franchise? Why are we doing it? And why are we starting with our guy, Loki Lalfison? Yeah, let's pretend it was always the plan to start with Loki from the very beginning. Yeah. No, but what's true is Loki was always going to get one of these because we love Loki. We adore this character, this character who has been with the MCU from nearly the very beginning. And if you have listened to us talk about Disney Plus television or MCU villains or any number of things.

Like, this is an extremely important character, one of our favorite archetypes ever of sort of a anti-hero or straight-up villain, if you prefer, redeemed. So Loki, I think, is instrumental to the success of the MCU, our first antagonist and our big event. Avengers movie. And we just want to highlight him. Just really call out what is great about him, honor him, and then give him a what jacket, uh, trophy. Yeah, what do we want to do? Do we want to do? Should we hand out blazers? Should we hand out like baseball caps? Should we hand out plaques, cups, microphones with custom mic flags that's a house of our Hall of Fame? Maybe it should be that. The golden apple? A golden. Apple is a beautiful way not only to commemorate somebody's lifetime achievement, the true, true,

historic accomplishment of making it into the House of Our Hall of Fame, but also the unity, the unity on the Apple Wars Front. That's beautiful. I love this. And it works well because in mythology, the Golden Apple of Discord is a very, like, trickster God kind of thing. So, you know, let's bring it on. I love this.

So we're going to be doing House of Our Hall of Fame every so often. If you're a long time House of Our Listener, you know we have some franchises that we enjoy returning to. We do hype meters. We do tropes courses. This is going to be one of our recurring franchises. How often will we induct folks into the House of Our Hall of Fame? Who can say? The content schedule and the anniversary schedule will have a lot to do with that, as will our heart's desire.

But that's part of the fun of it. It's there for us whenever we want it, whenever we need it. And initially, we are going to be inducting characters. Now, we reserve the right to add a new wing to the House of Our Hall of Fame at any point in the future, right, should we so desire. If we want to induct television episodes, movies, books, creators, anything like that, we could do that at some point. But we're starting with character inductions because we're really excited about the idea of character study podcasts, character studies and celebrate. of some of our favorites across the nerdverse, some of the true icons who have delighted us over the years.

And as Joe noted, Loki is certainly one of them. I think Loki is such an important one to consider because his story was just to end in Thorough of the Dark World. Like, they were just to kill Loki off many, many years ago. And they did a screening, did screenings. And the fandom, dare I say, rioted. and thus, here we are, many, many, many years later still talking about Loki. Think of the number of moments over the years of our shared MCU fandom that hinge on Loki

and hinge on Tom Hiddleston and celebrating this character who is, much like the snake that he sometimes likes to impersonate. Lots of twists and turns. It's never dull with Loki. Never dull at all. We love a trickster God. And we're going to, as we go today, the part of the way we're going to structure these Hall of Fame episodes is we're going to hand Alex to proxie.

We love to talk about some of our favorite moments with some of our favorite characters. And this will be a way for us to celebrate some of the highlights and also some of the most meaningful moments along a character arc. So this kind of helps us prep for the season to come. And what's on our mind is we prepare for a new journey with Loki. As is often the case when we go through a hype meter or top moments countdown or anything like that, we know the categories. But we don't know each other's picks. It's going to be a surprise in real time. How many of our superlatives will be the same?

How many will be different? I would not be shocked if we had nearly identical lists, and I would not be shocked if we had no overlap at all. I suspect it'll be somewhere in the middle, but no outcome would surprise me. True. Yeah, I mean, it's chaotic character, chaotic list here. You and I spent the weekend rewatching all the Loki appearances,

rewatching Loki Season 1. A joy. Just a genuine pleasure. A true delight. A true, true delight. And even though Loki appears, in what is canonically one of the worst Marvel movies. A movie that you know I love.

He's great in it. And like his story is great. Yeah. That's part of why I'm a long time Thor the Dark World Head, because it's such an incredible Loki movie. Absolutely bizarre take, but I support you. You know that I believe it fully.

But if you take the Loki cut, if you take the Loki cut, yeah, you're like, is this one of the greatest films? never created. Correct. Correct. Should this be on the AFI top? Correct. Correct. In the upper 50, you know?

I mean, 50. Why stop there? Top 20? Why stop there, Joe? Okay. All right. So, Loki's appearances over the years. Now, there are, of course, plenty of, like, mentions, the casual nod or acknowledgement or a flash. True appearances, we're talking Thor, which is 2011. The Avengers 2012.

Of course, those are both in Phase 1, which is a notable part of our early formative MCU experience. Two of the six first movies featured Loki as the primary foe. Thor the Dark World, 2013, Thor Ragnarock, 2017, Avengers Infinity War, 2018, Avengers Endgame, briefly, but crucially, given our journey with the series Loki. 2019, What If, in 2021, of course, who was in the stinger of Amman and the Wasp, quantum mania, just this very year. I was like, what year was that? How many years ago was this? No, that was this year. This calendar year, Joanna, 2020. What a moment that was to recall.

And then, of course, the eponymous series, Loki, season one of Loki, which feels like a thing we've shared. We've both remarked upon this a few times recently. Like, I have almost like a false memory of having covered this with you just because we have since talked about Loki together so many times, including on our Marvel Villains ranking pod, which was a blast. But we did not cover that show together. That was before we were co-hosts. And we get to cover season two together. And I cannot wait. I am so excited to talk about Loki with you every day. That was more than two years ago already. Season one was summer of 2021. It's astonishing. When you go back and watch Thor, 2011, everyone looks like such a baby, right? Like Tom Hiddleston was 30. It's wild. He's 40. He's

42 now, but he was 30 then. And like, for those of us who did a very, very, very, very, very, very, my newly detailed wig watch for all of these Loki appearances, which maybe I did. I should hope so. You know, watching the hairline as it changes over 12 years, it's been very interesting. I do want to say, so this is like ever so slightly, disgustingly self-promotional, but a book coming out next week, MCU, colon, the rate of Marvel Studios. And one of my favorite quotes we got in that book was from Zach Stens, who's one of the writers on the first Thor film.

And he says, quote, the singular mandate above all other mandates was they wanted Loki to be the villain for the Avengers. They literally said, if you fail at everything else, please just give us a villain as good as Magneto in Loki. So, like, they had such, he was burdened with glorious purpose from the very beginning. You know, they're like, if you mess up Thor, that's okay. But you've got to get Loki right. It's very important to us. So astonishing stuff. I love that.

That's honestly, the right instinct. I mean, so much of that early MCU experience of what people were drawn to and compelled by and ended up caring about long term in a way that truly is lasting. Like, no matter what happens to the future of the end up. MCU moving forward, our time with Loki will be eternal. Eternal. Let's talk about on the eternal front the Loki that predates the Marvel Cinematic Universe Loki, though, because that's part of what's fun about this character.

We have versions of Loki in comics canon. We have versions of Loki elsewhere in pop culture. We have versions of Loki in the most formative mythology that shapes the stories we tell each other. So before we get to some more of the MCU particular show, will you take us? Will you do us the honor and the privilege of taking us to Mythology Corner with Joanna Robinson? It would be a thrill of my lifetime to do that. There are many differences between Loki and Norse mythology and Loki and the MCU, but there are some core similarities, of course. This idea of a trickster god, of a god who's on an

arc. We love a character on an arc, Valerie. A character who you don't always know. How many times do you think we'll both say that today? We love a character on an arc. I mean, this is the thing about Loki. How many times will we hear Burden with Glory's purpose today? That's another question, you know? Steve just started setting over unders for the pod before we begin. But this idea of you don't know which side this character is going to be on the unpredictable and like entertaining and delightful. Steve, will you play me my first of several clips we have today? just on this topic. Hello, Bruce. So, last time I saw you, you were trying to kill everybody. Where are you at these days? It varies from moment to moment. That's Loki.

Varys from moments to moment. You know, I don't know. So in Norse mythology, Loki is not a frost giant the way that he is in the MCU, but he is half giant. His mom is named Laofi. It's not Lauffie's son. His mom is named Laofi. He's not related to Odin.

He's not related to Thor. Like these core concepts of MCU Loki are not there. He is like a blood brother of Odin, but he's not like his son, his petulant, adopted, abducted son. But this concept of trickster gods are so important in like throughout mythology, in the whole world. There's so many trickster gods. We talk about the monkey king in China, who we talked about when we talked about magical weapons several months ago. We could talk about Anansi, the West African spider god, you know, Hermes in Greek mythology. Just like the list goes on and on and on.

There's like the animal gods like coyote or the raven or whatever. So this concept of the trickster is universal. Why do we need a trickster figure? First of all, they're really fun. Secondly, a lot of times are very hot. Secondly, especially in the god realm, it's really fun for us to see someone question the authority of like the the gods for Loki to get one over on Odin again and again in Norse mythology is quite entertaining. And the trickster figure can tend to sort of move the ideologies and systems along as they question and break things.

And then they have to be remade over and over again. So that I think is why we return to that figure time and time again. Also, also the concept of like Lucifer. as the big, the great deceiver in Christian writing, that is connected obviously to this trickster concept. But the last thing I was about Loki in etymologically is, this is something I just learned yesterday. The word for spider web in Swedish is Loki's net,

like this like weaver, little spider weaver god. Anyway, Loki is involved in a lot of big, important nosedithology tales, including the creation of Mjolnir, which he wound up involved in after he cut off Lady Siff's hair as seen in Loki Season 1. And he went down and he was like messing with the dwarves was like, no way you can make something beautiful as like beautiful enough to rival something. He transferred himself to a fly, got in the dwarf's eyes. they messed up, they made the handle of the hammer too short. And he's like, ha ha, A, I win the bet, B, Thor, you can have this weird short-handled hammer thing. And that's how And then everybody in Norse mythology screamed, he needs the axe. The handle. Tree. Anyway, but in our hearts it did. Most importantly, Mallory, and I think you know this.

Yeah. Loki got, had sexual Congress with a horse. No. Say it the way you put it in the dock. Loki got fucked by a horse, became heavy with child. And then later gave birth to an eight-legged horse named Slapnir, which was Odette's horse. He's also the father of Fenrir, Odin's wolf, a father of hell, which became Hella in the MCU.

So, you know, like Zeus, just sort of like populating the planet with critters and villains and all sorts of stuff. and the serpent that canonically devours Thor. But the main difference between North North mythology Loki and MCU Loki, MCU Loki, we would agree, is on a trajectory towards good, correct? Or if good is too reductive, you know, on an upswing? This is not so for Loki and North mythology. He's on a downward spiral towards absolute villainy.

is involved in all of the Ragnarock thing. Bummer death for Loki or question mark not death. He is wrapped up in the entrails of his dead son. Bummer. Because he pissed off the other god so much. Not what you want. And then the great big poisonous snake just drips poison from above off its fangs onto Loki's face.

And then his faithful wife takes the venom away. and then they drip more and it burns Loki. It's just a constant venom drip for eons. And that's the, we hope is not what happens to Tom Hiddleston's Loki. But anyway, that's Loki mythology, some key similarities, some massive differences. And I think it would be impossible for us to consider this character. We're going to talk about various relationships that matter in Loki. It is so hard to understand the character of Loki outside of this, like, toxic.

father, son, toxic brother-to-brother relationship. So the fact that that is something that Marvel added to Loki's mythology, I think makes him, dare I say, with apologies to the ancient myths and even more interesting character. Oh, boy. Eat shit Norse mythology. You heard it here from Joanna Robinson. Sorry to the end of. Boy.

You know, this is a very particular and keen version of it, but it does connect to something we talk about a lot, which is part of the fun of the MCU, is maybe taking the kernel of a thing that existed in mythology or in the comics canon or whatever the case may be and amending and updating it for the version that we get in the MCU. It's never just or rarely just a note-for-note, beat-for-beat rendering of a thing we got before.

And, you know, Loki is such a tremendous manifest. station of that impulse to like take the seeds of something fundamental and then tend and nurture and shape and craft the the bloom from that seed that makes sense in your universe and then like continue to evolve it over time because like to what you're saying a minute ago about you know it's like on generally on the path to good it's like not only was that true once then it gets to be true again you know we get it in the primary timeline then we get the variance version of it in that like Okay, I've watched the highlight reel and now I can experience this growth again. We just fast forward my character growth through like several films inside of a couple episodes

of television. It was actually really fun to rewatch the footage in episode one of Loki that plays such a seismic role in accelerating that evolution for Loki right on the heels of having done the rewatch because it really is like these moments were chosen with great care and precision. They picked the ones that they needed to. I love to, like, thinking of how the MCU version, the Tom Hiddleston version of Loki, like to compare and contrast to some other versions of Loki we get in pop culture

who are also born out of that mythology. Like, I don't know if you watch the Norwegian Netflix show Ragnarok, Joe. I have not seen the most recent, the third season came out pretty recently, and sadly I have not watched it yet, but the first two seasons, They're one of our, like, early COVID watches. I find that show absolutely delightful. It's kind of like, what if Loki but Riverdale? Like, it's got this, like, really fun, like, CWT element,

but you around the myth. And the Loki figure Larritz in the Netflix show, Ragnarok, hits a lot of these beats. You know, there's a plot point. where Laritz has a tapeworm, aka becomes pregnant with the Midgard Serpent. And like you get these parallels to the myth and these things where you see like the similarities

between a character or a figure like Laritz in that show and Tom Hilsson's Loki and the MCU and then certain aspects of the character or the arc that are just utterly distinct. And that's part of the fun of what you can do with a figure like Loki. And that takes out of, I guess, to Comics Corner for a minute

because that's really part of the comic history of Loki, too, which dates back as much Marvel Comics canon does. Decades and decades and decades and decades and decades and decades. And thus, as come in many shapes and forms over the years, the god of mischief, the Prince of Lies, Frost Giant by birth in Comics Canon, raised as an Asgardian god, supernaturally strong, superhuman god, a genius intellect, an expert magician and sorcerer, like a lot of the beats that we're familiar with from the MCU, Stanley, Jack Kirby, Larry Lieber, creation. There's like an earlier, totally different version of Loki that premieres previously in the 40s, very different.

But like the Loki that we think of, debuts in 62 in Journey Into Mystery, number 85. Of course, the fifth episode of Season 1 of Loki named Journey Into Mystery, not only a nod to that, but into the more recent run of the comic, which we'll hit on in a second as well. And I think what we just wanted to quickly highlight on the comics run, because as you might imagine, when the character debuts in 62, there's too much to possibly talk about in a quick contextual snapshot. But the number of versions we get of Loki, both in terms of actual versions or variants of Loki, but also like the intent of a certain Loki character,

rendering like the vibe, you can have Loki, classic Loki. You can have kids. You can have Lady Loki. You can have Loki as an animal. You can have a Loki who's impersonating the Scarlet Witch. You can have a Loki who's acting temporarily as the Sorcerer Supreme. You can have King Loki.

You can have the would-be president Loki campaigning down on Midgard, etc., etc., etc. The actual reincarnation, the fact that Loki can be reborn time and time again is obviously part of this. But more thematically rich for our purposes, the ambition at play with Loki and this question an always of like identity and glorious purpose. Who am I? Who am I? Who do other people think I am?

Yeah. And it just allows the creators of different arcs to do so many things that feel like of a piece with this Loki tradition, but also like utterly distinct. So we just want to like very quickly hit on some of the more recent runs. Yeah. From the 2000s that we really enjoyed and that feel like maybe emblematic of this comic storytelling spirit, if you're inclined to check a few out. Joe, do you want to tell us about

the more recent journey into mystery? Yeah, Journey to Mystery, Fear Itself, Karen Gillen, Doug Braithwaite, Elysses, Aerola. We bring back Kid Loki on a mission to the underworld. This is, this is, of the Loki comics that I reread in advance of Loki season one, this was my favorite. Yeah. And, Back before Mallory and I started podcasting together, we were, as she mentioned, like, before we became this happy, bad baby family, we were like single moms doing our jobs in different venues, right? So she interviewed Michael Waldron and he ate an apple and said a bunch of really smart things, Michael Waldron, headwriter of Lucky Season 1. Our guy, friend of the pie. I interviewed Michael Waldron over my outlet. And this is what he said about Journey Into Mystery.

It's not like that, that was the comic, quote, not necessarily because of our. show is about a child version of Loki, but because it excavates his humanity in a more vulnerable space in a way you only can with a child. A child version of Loki is still burdened by the sins of his past self, which is very much what our version of Loki is running up against in the TVA, can a tiger change its stripes? Right? So like when when Kid Loki pops up in that journey into mystery fear itself front, it's this idea of like, am I good now? What am I? And there's this, like constant push-pull, you know, voice of a raven, devil on your shoulders, sort of like, fight for the morality of Loki.

It's a fascinating, fascinating story. I love the idea of like Loki's coming into contact with different versions of themselves. That's also something obviously that's been central to season one of Loki. It's very present in another great comic run. Loki agent of Asgard, I should say on the Kid Loki front, obviously if people are interested in Kid Loki, like check out. the Karen Gillen, Jamie McElty, Young Avengers run. Kid Loki a plenty there. Amazing.

Yeah. Loki agent of Asgard, on the heels of Kid Loki, kind of growing into young Loki, and working as like a mission executor secret agent with King Loki looming. So to the point in that wonderful Waldron quote and everything you're highlighting about Kid Loki, like this idea of reinvention is something that we love so much with the character. And sometimes that can come in the form of an actual literal rebirth and reinvention. I get the chance to do things differently now. I get the chance to convince people.

I am capable of change. But what path are you on and what version of you do you know is like looming and waiting on the other end? And then what change can occur absent a rebirth in a different form, just living the life that you're living? inside of, say, the TVA in a really fashionable top and orange jumpsuit. We get to ask all of these things and think about all of these things with the character. Perhaps if you decide to pop your collar, even though no one else is popping their color, in fact, your counterpart doesn't have a collar at all.

It's, you know, you do you. Really, really need to make sure that you took the ticket and you kept the ticket. No matter how deep the pockets are, make sure that the tuesday. ticket is in there somewhere. One of the quotes that I really love, this is like very early in the Agent of Asgard run in the first issue. It gets to this idea that's like central to this run about identity, but also storytelling tradition. And it reminded me of like a lot of the discussions that we've been having recently on our

Osokopods about like myths and fables and the stories we tell ourselves. So there's there's a speech bubble early on. the gods are creatures of magic, creatures of story. We must be careful which roles we step into. So this idea of like assigning yourself a role, I get to be the hero. I'm supposed to be the villain. Like what path are you bound by and what path do you get to break out of? And even if you think something is your purpose or your destiny, can you change it?

Can you change the role that you've lived your life in before? And that's part of why I love Loki Season 1, like all the conversations about free will and breaking free of the sacred timeline that somebody else is maintaining. And I think what's even more, let me yes and that with this aspect of the fear, the journeys into mystery fear itself, Kieran Gillen run, is this, will other people let you change? Right.

Right. Not only can you fundamentally mold and shape your true nature, but will people believe, if you are the Prince of Lies, is anyone going to believe that you've changed your ways? Or will they, you know, push you into this role that they're used to having you in and that they need you in? Like in fear itself, for the most part, it's Thor's friends, you know, who need Loki to be the villain. they need that in order for them to be the heroes. And it's tragic. Sorry, anyway, go ahead. What you're saying?

Well, on that front, Joe, America, if I were your president, I'd have the guts to lie right to your face. It brings us to vote Loki the instantly iconic 2016 for issue arc, which is, of course. I mean, I'll say it's like mileage may vary on whether it's actually like, too unpleasant to read because it is, of course, like, Trump-era satire. So you have to be in the right headspace for it. But it is just like a really sharp and smart assessment of what version of Loki is actively and consciously being projected into a potentially captive audience. And then what it means if people are actually ready to receive that, it is like really worth the read. And we like to think about that, like Loki, the pursuer, right? This is one of the, one of the forms that Loki

takes. Like, what is the quest? What is the mission? We think often, of course, about like the pursuit of the throne ruling in Asgard, but time and time again, Loki in the villainous runs is drawn to Earth, to Midgard, to taking something from Thor that Loki thinks he can better preserve and he would say protect. Or like fine if I'm not welcome in Asgard. If I have this reputation in Asgard, I will take another realm and make it my own. Yes.

You know, sometimes the realm that Loki finds myself in is completely unfamiliar. And I think this one's like maybe a little less fabled as the few that we just talked about as fear itself or agent of Asgard or vote Loki. but I would really recommend Loki Sorcerer Supreme the handful of issues inside of the Dr. Strange run. This is 381 to 385,

where Loki temporarily works as the Sorcerer Supreme while our guy Stephen Strange is working as a veterinarian and it is just delightfully entertaining, all told. But this question of the cost of magic, which is something else that we talk about a lot, Joe, and really like to track. Like, if you do something, if you usher something into the world,

then what is the calculus? Like, how do the scales balance? Do they need to? This is, like, very top of mind for the Loki in this run in a way that is, like, very rich and compelling for people who are interested

in his character and the way that he thinks and the way that he's always assessing the path to power and control, but also the vulnerabilities that may pop up as a result of it. So that's another really fun one and just like a totally different

flavor of Loki than you get elsewhere. Can I recommend one more that is not on your list? Yeah. If you're, one thing about Loki that we haven't like dwelled a lot on yet is like, particularly because he doesn't get a love interest until his own TV show, but is like a very attractive, compelling, sexy Loki. Loki, 2019 written by Daniel Kimball Smith, Ozger, you'll do you'll, you'll do, you'll

I think is how you pronounce the cover artist's name and Jan Buzeldua did it. But like the art on that one, that is like, that's hot Loki. That's Loki sitting on the throne with like a tight t-shirt that says low key on it. And it's sort of like pulled up at the, it's like, this is your eye candy Loki, 2019. It was a really entertaining little run, shorty run. Very good. Love eye candy Loki. Speaking of, should we talk about the MCU's Loki? Let's do it.

Tom Hiddleston. Sue Joanna. Yeah. When you take time in your day, just on a random Monday afternoon, whenever, maybe it's fall, maybe it's winter, who can say? Sure. And you think about what life would have been like if Kenneth Browna had, in fact, cast Tom Hiddleston as Thor, which is the role that he originally auditioned for.

Where does that take you in your mind? A shudder to think. I shudder. to think. It was all wrong. He just like he loved, he had worked with Tom on Wallander and in, you know, he was in checkoffs. Ivanov with him. Like, Brana's like, we got to use this kid. But if we've all, I mean, if you're in as deep as we are, you've seen the audition. And it's just like, it's just not right. And I'm so glad that they flagged him as like, but we still want to keep him. And we still want to use him to something else. And I actually, like, we're We love respected Chris Hemsworth, who has done amazing work as Thor. Like, this is, I think this is the better role, honestly, at the end of the day. Definitely. And it's delicious.

It is delicious. Absolutely. So we mentioned the villain, the Marvel villain ranking that we did. Yeah. Wonderful pod. Check it out if you haven't. You can now find the full house of our archive right here on this very podcast feed. Great work, Steve.

Thank you for all your hard work. Steve, you're the best. And you're going to have to listen to the pod to hear the whole ranking. But we will spoil for you that Loki was number one. And it was a pretty easy call for both of us. Thanos obviously is the most central focus of the Infinity saga and still looms very prominently and large as this measuring stick for a successful, big, bad,

and the question of whether the MCU can, like, replicate that achievement. But before we add Thanos, I mean, yeah, he's there in Avengers, like Winkin and polluting Loki's mind with the minestone and inside of the Scepter. Winking and Peebun. Winkin and the Peepin is the Heimdoll. Winkin and Peebun is Heimdoll's territory. What's Jane up to?

Well, I'm sure. shouldn't know this or tell you this, but... But I've been winking and peepin, so, you know. But Joe. Yeah. Is Thanos there? Is he part of the Chetari invasion? Is he part of the plot with the test track and the Scepter and Avengers?

Yes, but Loki is literally the reason the Avengers assemble, right? He's the guy. He's the guy. Here's the reason why I think Loki is so interesting and so important in those early days, because eventually Marvel lands on his formula of like, not always, but they're starting. They're really strong villains or the villain with the point, right? We talk about that when we talk about Thanos or Kilmonger, etc. Loki, we're not agreeing that Loki should do any of the things that Loki does, right?

But he has an emotional point, especially like in Thor. What we see, how we see his like trickster sensibilities spiral out of control due to emotional trauma. around family relationships and like hoops among us has played a simple prank and then oops you know left us vulnerable to invasion etc etc um and i it's the way that it's he's written as this sort of tragic shakespearean archetype based on edmund and lear or iago or you know, what have you, if you prefer Don John, a much of you do. And then the way that Hiddleston plays him. And to the point where Thor is our hero,

Thor is the one we're supposed to be on the side of, but like Tom is so good in that first movie of giving us the interior emotional life, the jealousies, you know, the insecurities, the who am I? That, you know, just makes us want to like wrap ourselves. around this character. So it's such a stunning, early, stellar Marvel character that is still preoccupying our thoughts to this day.

Absolutely. And it's like the performance, I don't really think we could talk enough about Hiddleston's performance and the like, sumptuous, like, lusciousness of the poll that he has over us with every line. And this will be an interesting thing to track when we get to. to our superlatives later, like how often did we pick moments that come from a more villainous, hideously inclined, Loki, which, if we're being honest with ourselves, just as riveting to watch as our alcoholic Loki who has discovered something about, like, the power of connection and

vulnerability, et cetera. And, you know, we went, we went through like the number of appearances, the number of properties that Loki has been in. Think of the number of different people who are writing the character at some point, and it always feels right and true and consistent as he is evolving and changing. And I love the point you're making about, like, we cannot obviously possibly feel anything but horror as we hear some of the, like,

think about the substance, consider the substance of some of the decisions that Loki makes or some of the things that he is seeking to attain or achieve in the first couple movies. but when he's like, I'm just another stolen relic and he's just a sad little boy

to borrow a boy. Corvius's later phrasing who is desperate for acceptance and belonging and some sort of validity inside of the family that he spent much longer than a mortal life

growing up inside of. we feel this empathy for him, even as he's doing these horrible things. And it's just like such an incredible balancing act and achievement to repel us with the actual words that are coming out of his mouth and then like suck us in with the way he's saying it and the things that we know drove him to that point. And then when you watch him grow out of it twice, it's just so unbelievably compelling. I want to go back in asterisk one thing you said and put a pin in it for later when you said every single person. who has written him, he feels consistent the same. I have one exception to that, and we'll talk about it. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, but

intriguing. But yes, I see a scared little boy shivering in the cold and you kind of feel bad for that ice runt. Ice ront is just historic. For each, Mobius, yes. Ice rind is historic. Yeah. The best. Joe. Yeah. I have a question for you. Yeah.

Brotherly love. I know you've got some thoughts on the brotherly shove, which is the Philadelphia Eagles, uh, nearly unstoppable tush push play inspired by the brotherly love term. We'll save that for another pod. Who needs whom more? Does Thor need Loki more than Loki needs Thor? This is a question that we are now actually able to answer after a full six episode television series in which Thor plays other than have you been memories and flashbacks. No part. Snoop it and peep it on my on my Twitter timeline again. Um, the uh, Yeah, I think if you compare, it's not a one-to-one. It's not very clean. But when I was putting all of this together and re-watching everything, I remember in covering Loki season one, I was so fascinated. Because the question throughout Loki season one was, is Hemsworth going to show up? Are we going to get some Thor in this? How do you possibly do a Loki story without Thor? We've never done a Loki story without Thor. What does it look like? And I love that Thor is.

is not really in Loki. I mean, shout out to Frog Thor and some other things, but like, not really, right? And that is, feels important. And we'll talk about sort of, Loki has always in the MCU been a foil character. But like, who is he a foil to in his own show? And that's a different question. Thor, the best example of a Loki-less Thor, I mean, in Infinity War to a certain degree, but like, and in endgame, but the shadow of Loki over that.

And I guess you could argue the shadow of Thor over Loki season one. But like he's actively grieving his brother in all of that. That's like what is actively going on in that. So then you get to Thor Love and Thunder. And that is the like true Loki-less Thor story. And I have a lot to like in that. But I think fundamentally Thor without Loki is not as interesting as Loki without Thor. for my taste, you know?

Yeah. I think that's just true. The way that Thor is present in his absence in season one of Loki just heightens the sense of the character on the arc, that evolution from foil or psychic into like leading figure. Yeah. You're missing Loki constantly in love and thunder. Constantly. So that's just one more, one more credit to the character. To that point about like foils and the different.

people that Loki is interacting with in season one of Loki, and this will continue to be the case based on trailers and just the promo material for season two. Sometimes it is not a variant. Sometimes it's a figure like Mobius or someone else, Rivona. But sometimes it's another Loki. Sometimes it's Sylvie. Sometimes it's classic Loki. Sometimes it's Kid Loki. Sometimes it's Alligator Loki on it on the list goes. Resident Loki, Voistrous Loki, etc. Broadly, Anything about that structural choice and that storytelling choice before we get into our superlatives. We talk about this idea a lot of just like independent of Loki, but obviously this manifests quite keenly in Loki. One of the appeals of multiversal storytelling is that you can see different versions of yourself.

We can see different versions of the character and the character can see different versions of themselves. What's constant? What's nature? What's nurture? What are you able to learn about your? yourself. Sometimes this is like high comedy. Sometimes there's a sexiness to it. The like seismic narcissist payoff of you fell in a lot. You fell for yourself. Just wonderful stuff. This like elevated form of masturbation. Of course, Loki would want to be with another Loki.

But also then there's this like deep richness to the introspection in like multidimensional form. How did all of that work for you the first time revisiting season one? How top of mind is that for you as we had not only into our picks, but season two. Something really really. really stood out to me that I hadn't considered, because we've been, you know, we talked about this a lot in our respective coverage of season one in my interview with Waldron. It was really funny because in that interview I did with Waldron, which was before season one and premiered, and he was trying to be so careful about not saying anything. And they had yet to confirm that there even was going to be a female Loki, right? So he didn't want to be like Loki meets and falls in love

with himself. So he was like, trying to talk around it, right? So he says, I asked him, was like, could Loki meet himself? And he's like, it certainly, it certainly could. What being is more chaotic than Loki? What do you have to learn from any version of yourself? Right? He was like, I can't tell you that Richard E. Grant is also playing Loki or that we have a Gator Loki. I can't tell you any of that, but he wanted to like talk around it. But what occurred to me is that in that foil space, Loki spends every version that we meet him up through his,

he has many deaths, but his death at the hand of Thanos. and if any war, comparing himself to his brother. In his brother's shadow, reflected back, that's the mirror that he's looking in. So to go from that to looking at yourself, not how do I compare to my brother, who's so different for me, but how do I compare to this thing that is so close to me? And how can I learn to fall in love with that, to support that, to have empathy for that, versus I want to, Steve, if you wouldn't mind playing my second clip here, this is from, I have a lot of Thor the Dark World, actually, at the end of the day in this.

Steve, will you play this? You know I'm here for it. A true king admits his faults. What of the lives you took on earth? A mere a handful compared to the number that Odin has taken himself. Your father. He's not my father! Then am I not your mother?

You're not. Always so perceptive about everyone but. yourself. When his mother says, always so perceptive about everyone but yourself, that Loki is so smart, so cunning, watching everyone. You have to understand how everyone ticks in order to trick them, to take advantage of them, and he just refuses to look in the mirror. So the fact that pull him out of that Thor cycle, pull him out of the Odin cycle, and thrust him in front of a mirror where he only has a chance to look at himself, that is the brilliant. of the Loki TV series,

and that is the richness. And that is what makes it feel like because of that comment in Thor the Dark World, a long payoff for a story on a long arc, even though the Loki that we're watching

in the Loki TV series technically didn't have that conversation with his mother in Thor the Dark World, you know? That exchange with Friga in Thor the Dark World is not one of my

actual picks for our Superlive, but it is my, it took the award for runner-up for the most categories. It was like I almost picked it five or six times because it just, it does feel like this like absolutely essential foundational text for the journey that's on. And think of how like in season one, what is like the most frequently recurring question and beat?

I mean, there are a lot of different callbacks and comments that build as characters learn and grow. But that question specifically of what makes a Loki a Loki? is so central. And the moments of breakthrough on that front come between Loki's, right? Do you think what makes

Loki a Loki is the fact that we're destined to lose? That's from Sylvie. And this is after they've had the more kind of like jovial, casual exchange about this idea. No, we may lose sometimes painfully,

but we don't die. We survive. I mean, you did. And where did he, where did Loki get the, we survive insight from classic Loki. So the lokies are all teaching each other something that allows them to build toward an understanding that they can only get from each other, which means from yourself.

And that's like a beautiful message there. Self acceptance. I like that idea of self acceptance is so key. And like letting other people in and learning from each other and helping other people, like, allow you to grow. But that idea that it, you have to have the buy into and it has to come from from within. And what a way to show us that, to literalize that. One of the joys for the character of Thor and Thor Ragnarok that we love is this idea of like strip him of all these things, what's left.

And in an interview, I think it was right before season one, Hiddle sits in something very similar to me about Loki. He says, Thor is nowhere to be seen. Asgard is very far away. There are no Avengers near in hand. He's even stripped of his status and his power. Like you can't use his magic in the TVA. So what is left if you strip Loki of all the things that are familiar to him? What remains?

That's for him to discover as much as the audience. Yes. Yes. That's just a great show. Journey into the mystery of self, of you, of who you are. I love it. It's Infinity Stones, as paperweights, and also this beautifully deep and rich existential text. Great show.

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Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to play a sound clip for each of us to reveal the pick and then discuss them. We'll see if we have overlap. We'll see if we don't. Maybe we'll have picks that are the same but in different categories. Who knows? You want to go first for a most mischievous moment? I do and I won't usually do this, but here I'm going to slightly premise this.

And saying, technically this is a moment that does occur in a film. But also the sound you're going to hear is sort of from like a deleted scene to extras is what is in here. Steve, will you play my number three clip, please? Oh, this is better. Ooh, the costume's a bit much. So tight. But the confidence, I can feel a righteousness surging. Hey, you want to have a rousing discussion about truth, honor, patriotism?

God bless America. I was hoping you would pick this somewhere. Really? Yeah. That's Loki as Captain America and Thorne the Dark World. In the film itself, we get a little Chris Evans cameo, but at some point they considered a version because Tom does this great Chris Evans' impression, where it's just Tom as Captain America. And he's in the suit. It's delightful.

YouTube it. never seen it. It's delightful. Absolutely wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Great pick. So that sums up the idea of mischief for you best. I'm like fucking with like poking fun at Captain America. Ship shifting, classic lokey move. Yeah. Very mischievous. What do you got?

It's wonderful stuff. Steve, can you please play my clip? This is it. I took my leave. You fool you didn't listen. I'm sorry. Lady Siff could help. Somebody help! I'm sorry for all I've done.

Shh. It's all right, hold on. I'm sorry. I tried to rule Earth. I'd be lucky to have you. I'm sorry about that thing with the Tesseract. I just couldn't help myself. I'm a trickster.

This is so mischievous. Sorry about that time. I turned you into a frog. It was a wonderful joke. It was indeed hilarious. You are the savior. God. Tell my story.

Build a statue for me. We will build a big statue for you. With my helmet on. With a big bendy horns. I would tell father what you did here today. I didn't do it for him. The most astonishing sequences in the history of film. Forget the history of the MCU.

This is, of course, from Thor Ragnarok. When Loki is throwing a play in his own honor while impersonating his father. So just a quick recap of how we got here. After striking a deal with Thor that allowed Loki to temporarily escape his imprisonment from the Battle of New York, he faces death. Then he sends Odin to Shady Acres Care Home on Midgard and impersonates his father, assuming the throne on Asgard, and then brings in Matt Damon, Sam Neal, and Luke Hemsworth to conduct theater to remind everybody of how meaningful Loki is to them.

Not in that clip, but of course worth a mention is Sam Nealazoden saying you were merely a little blue baby icicle that melted this old fool's heart. Iconic. So while Thor is off exploring the nine realms, trying to prevent this apocalyptic doom that he keeps feeling and sensing and dreaming about,

Loki is doing this, enjoying those grapes and those nuts, the candy of Asgard. And only when he is threatened with a dose of Molnir right through the face, does he reveal himself at last and yield? This is just like pantheon trickster horseshit. And I love literally every single thing about it. I will compliment and say, I love Anthony Hopkins, like, what he does with this. when he's like mouthing the words along with the play and stuff like that. This is like, to me, this is mischievous in the cocktail shaker with like massive ambition because he's not just like, I mean, he's scampily putting on a play, but also he's like,

fucked over his father and his ruling Asgard. I think Loki's mischief is often entwined with his ambition. There we go. That's part of why it has such an important. Thanks. Love it. Next. Yeah.

Thank you. Likewise. These are, boy, it's just a lot of comedy from our Guy Loki. Wonderful stuff. Bravest moment. I think there's no way we don't have the same one on this one. It would strike me as unlikely that we don't have the same pick for this one. But I guess it's possible.

Steve, do we have the same fit? What is probably one clip? I. Loki, prince of Asgard, Odin's son, the rightful king of Yotenheim, God of mischief. Do hereby pledge to you my undying fidelity. You should choose your words more carefully. Boy, you really hear those... Every vertebrae.

just like crumbling. No, no resurrection this time. My goodness. So we have the same pick, unsurprising. Avengers, colon, if anywhere. Have you? Have you heard of it? Glad.

At this point, Loki died a number of times, including when he was supposed to canonically die at the end of Thor the Dark World. And the fan said, no. So, so Thanos saying no resurrections this time. was like, we promise this is a real death, except we found a loophole and he's going to get his own spinoff, but don't worry about it.

But yeah, a loophole, though. Loki's standing up to Thanos. I was like, I can't pick this. Mallory's going to pick this. I have to pick something else. And I literally, I could not, in good conscience, pick anything other than Loki's standing up to Thanos after like the sort of very beautiful

poignant ending of Ragnarok between the brothers. And I assure you, brother, the sun will shine on us again is a beautiful aspect of all this. But the most important part. Yeah. And I think you would agree. Odinson. Is when he says Odinson.

And the way he looks at Thor. And it's the pause he puts on it, right? Loki Laufsson is something that he has been answering to. And in the Loki TV series, when the TVA calls him up, they call him Laufsson. Like this is, but he's like, it's an embrace. It's an embrace. Guard, pause, Odinson, pause, the rightful king of Yotnym. I mean, it's just gets me every single time.

Me too. It kills me. Yeah. It kills me. The way he says it, the way he pauses, the way he lingers, the way he looks at Thor, everything that passes between them in that moment. Like, is it brave to try to pull a trick on Thanos and knife him as he's collecting Infinity Stones and filling his gauntlet?

Yes. But the real bravery is the emotion. bravery of allowing yourself to be that vulnerable in that moment, Joanna. It's beautiful. It is so, so, so good. There is, in Ragnarok, I was rereading the script of Ragnarok. Spoiler, that's the one where I'm, like, not wholly convinced that Loki is the true Losey. I'll read it now.

Tyco-I-T-T gave this quote to the Empire podcast that I've never forgotten since, where he was talking about the challenge. Like they want to, Hemsworth is feeling like he's drowning in the Thor character. They want to really center Thor. They want to make sure he shines. And so Tyca says that they have to sort of push Loki down in order to bring build Thor up, right? So to say, not to really want to humiliate Loki all the way through the film, but because he was, he most definitely overpowered Thor a lot in the other films in terms of presence and his story and kind of overshadowed him a little bit.

This one was just nice to kind of switch it around after all the shitty things that Loki's done in the last few. films. Tyka called him a space orphan. He called him a little emo goth, hanging out by himself, tortured artist, tortured goth the orphan. He was like the shitty little kid in Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy, you know, like all this sort of stuff like that. And I was just like, I feel like Taika, I think Tom did a great job in Ragnarok. Ragnarok is obviously a movie I love. I love. And there is some great Loki Thor stuff in that movie. But I think there's just some moments where I was just like the agenda was so clearly set elsewhere that they were sort of like, we're going to, you know, play a little fast and loose, I think, with the character in some spots.

That's interesting. And that makes sense. I think it's part of perhaps counterintuitively why the Loki and Ragnarok really works for me because it feels like this like meta aspect of Loki always being made to feel less significant than Thor and how he works to combat that. and then where that leads to some sort of friction that maybe otherwise wouldn't be there, but then also like how meaningful it is

when they can break through it. So like obviously there's the kind of like action and pomp of something like, your savior is here. But also just like the real heart at the end of Ragnarokov, if you were here, I'm here just like shreds me. And that, of course, is as you know,

to write what we, right what proceeds this moment, the beautiful moment in an infinity war. But there's like moments of panic for him that like we're so not used to seeing Loki panic. He's so cool under pressure. But when like Hella shows up, shatters the, you know, it's very scary. And it's supposed to be very scary. But he's like, get us out of here. You know what I mean?

Like that doesn't seem quite looking to me. Has some real whole PTSD on Sikar. Definitely. But that being said, reading the script, thinking about that Odinson moment, when Thor and Loki He find Odin and sit down on the cliff with him and stuff like that. And the stage directions read, when Odin says, my sons, I've been waiting for you, it says, Locally is surprised to hear Odin call him his son, even though Odin has done that throughout. But, like, this is a moment where he's like at the end of all things.

Yes. And you see it on Loki's face on that scene. Everything I did. He embraced me as a son. So, therefore, in Infinity War, Prince of Asgard, Odin's son. you know. Wonderful. Also, you will never be a god.

It's just an absolute historic. Actively purpling. Mike drop indictment dunk at the end. What a way to go out for Loki until he came back. Was there anything that actually came close to earning your pick here? I mean, you said you went through it on whether to select us. Was there a runner up that you almost went with or was it just this and nothing else? there's some stuff in the, I would say, the Loki TV series.

Yeah, that was also my next most likely. I might talk about some of that later. So I'm just going to say that. Fair enough. Yeah, I had a runner up that's from close enough to some other moments that might come up that I'll hold off on mentioning it as well. Okay. Next category. Next superlative.

Talk about a bountiful consideration set. Most pathetic moment. This was my. this is my one of the categories that I want to do because like you know I think it goes well with bravest most pathetic and like like when we talked about Asoka it's like Asoka the fuck up like Loki born to lose destined to lose like what is his most pathetic moment yeah okay what do you have I have been falling for 30 minutes uh that's what that's a Thor Ragnar moment after I just gave that big Thor Ragnar speech when uh Stephen just like sends him through a portal and pushes them through. Crashes into, anyway,

I have actually a number one here, but I didn't pick it because I thought maybe you would pick it, so we'll see if you do. But like, there are more, there are more like emotionally pathetic moments for Loki,

but this is just like, this is just actively humiliating. You know what I mean? It's just being like, being just tossed around by Stephen Strange. It's like pretty, yeah. The equivalent of like an old-school Star Wars swipe screen transition via Dr. Strange Portal is just remarkable. I did go the more emotionally pathetic route.

Steve, can you please play my clip? Loki, what are you doing here? I had to see you. What's happened? Tell me, is it Jodenheim? Let me explain to father. The father is dead. What?

Your banishment. The threat of a new war. It was too much for him to bear. You mustn't blame yourself. I know that you loved him. I tried to tell him so, but he wouldn't listen. It was so cruel to put the hammer within your reach, knowing that you could never lift it.

The burden of the throne has fallen to me now. Can I come up? The truth with the Otenheim is conditional upon your exile. Couldn't we find a way? The mother has forbidden your return. This is goodbye, brother. I'm so sorry. This is, of course, Loki,

appearing at the shield base in New Mexico. Is it the scarf that makes him the most pathetic version of us? This is, will not be winning Fitwatch later. you that. Scarf, Scarf Loki. To tell a captured, exiled, powerless Thor that Odin is dead and Friggo won't let him come home and also to remind him that he isn't worthy of Mileneer. This is the most mortifying thing that Loki ever does.

As if Thor doesn't have enough to worry about with the dyed eyebrows and beard, Joanna, he now has to carry this with him too. I think like we've talked about a lot today already, like so much of Loki's peak villainy stems from this like real need and thirst for approval and acceptance. And often specifically from Odin, you know, if we trace it back to that original sin of Odin marching the two youngsters through the halls of power and saying only one of you can ascend to the throne, but both of you were born to be kings. Maybe just parent differently, Odin.

We have some notes. A few notes. One or two. A few notes. So it's not just reminding. Thor of the cruelty of Nielnir's proximity and his inability to wield it. It's not just lying to him about their father dying

or lying to him about their mother coming home. It's that he's taking his own specific insecurity, which is like a very human-relatable thing, and weaponizing it to put it onto Thor. I wasn't enough for mom and dad, and now you're going to be made to feel like you weren't either. Like, this is his revenge. And, you know, one of the really formative lines

about Loki is also from this movie when Thor says you're a talented liar brother always have been. This is like part of the sacred Loki text, right, that you're a talented liar idea. And that's very much on display here, but he is also an unsparing liar. And it is deeply pathetic

to see the way that he tries to absolutely shred and destroy Thor here. And then the most shameful thing about it is he goes and he tries to let me hear right after. And he fucking can't. That for me, that for me is the moment. Like, this is one thing, but like him just like casually just seeing if he can like 50, and he's like, no.

That's my pick. I thought one of us might pick puny God, but no. I thought you were going to pick puny God, which is why I didn't pick puny God. Well, I similarly thought you would probably pick puny God. It's a real gift of the magic moment here. Punei God has now been mentioned in the superlatives in the Loki Hall of Fame induction. All is right with the. Okay.

Puny God is a tough one for our guy Loki. The whimper, the thing about Putey God is the whimper. It's not even the rag doll hammering and the puny god. It's the whimper. The thing about Punei God is it comes. So there's this, like right before we get to Punei God, we get kind of just before, Loki's zooming above the city. Clint fires an arrow on him.

Loki cools a goddamn cucumber catches it. so cool. Doesn't even look, catches it, turns to smirk, then it blows up in his face, and it's all down hell from there. Literally, it explodes. You're like, that was so cool. And then it blows up and you're like, oh, no. Well, you know, as they say, a big metaphor guy. Okay, great one. What a wonderful category. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows Winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. then you'd want a cargo liner

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Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch

willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning and Ed Harris now streaming on Paramount Plus. Next, most riveting speech. No preamble, but I thought slightly outside the box, Steve, will you play in my clip? I am Loki of Asgard.

Amazing. And I am burdened with glorious purpose. I love this. Stand back, you mule in quim. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for a place in this chamber. In this meagre palace of Midgard, the arena they call Hall H. That is Tom Hiddleston at San Diego Comic-Con in 2013 when he came out for the Thor of the Dark World trailer launch in full Loki drag.

Tom wrote that speech, though he cherry-picked a lot of the lines from other Loki speeches. But he wrote that whole thing, including like improv and crowdwork and stuff like that. It's long. That was only a snippet of it. It is, I think, four minutes. And he just has the whole arena in the palm of his hand. And it is just incredible. And it just like speaks to like the power of Tom.

Like, you know, there's a number of great Loki speeches and Tom is good at delivering them. But also like how people feel about Tom Hittleston in the end. emceu and how much he loves the character, how much he loves playing the character. So yeah, I'm going to give it up to you. Sublime. Sublime. Sublime. Sublime.

And what's great about that is, again, that was before they launched the trailer of The Thore of the Dark World, the movie in which he was supposed to die and be gone forever. So for all he knew, this is like his last time putting on the Loki costume, etc. I believe it was before they filmed the Stinger at the end of that. film. So, yeah. Amazing. Great pick. I have no notes. Thanks. Steve, can you play my clip? Can you wipe out that much red? Drakeoff's daughter? Sao Paolo, the hospital fire. Barton told me everything.

Your ledger is dripping. It's gushing red. And you think saving a man no more virtuous than yourself will change anything? This is the basest center. mentality this is a child of prayer pathetic you lie and kill in the service of liars and killers you pretend to be separate to have your own code something that makes up for the horrors but they are part of you and they will never go away won't touch barton not until i make him kill you slowly intimately in way he knows you fear and then he'll wake just long enough to see his good work and when he screams I'll split his skull. This is my bargain, you mule and quim.

You're a monster. You brought the monster. So, banner. That's your play. What? Thank you for giving Natasha her moment in that. It's a huge part of why I picked it because... Because, okay, so most riveting, connecting to some of we discussed earlier,

does not necessarily mean a moment where we're rooting for him, right? It might mean we're actually actively rooting against him and that we are, like, repelled and appalled by him. And this is a very harrowing moment for Loki fans to revisit. Double-muelling quim moment for Loki. We did both have a muleing quim, which is great stuff. It's just like a real important reminder that, you know, You know, we love a character on an arc, and part of this arc was just absolute viciousness.

I also love how, like, that is, while we're such fond fans of, like, everything that we see in those scenes in Ragnarok and into Loki, like, that growth and Infinity War. But part of the character's magnetism is that he can draw you in with the horror, too. and this very cruel, provocative early scene where, you know, when he says something like, but they're part of you, they will never go away, trying to kind of undermine other people by wielding his own pain and trauma as ammo is just like such a vintage Loki thing.

But part of why it's my pick is because it's, it's a classic riveting Loki speech because it is immediately rendered unsuccessful. And that is like so pitch perfect. Caught monologing. Classic phone. Humble. Nat baits him.

Yeah. And it works. Yeah. And that's just poster villain stage Loki in every respect. That's such a buffy move, by the way. The, I thought we were both going to pick the Neil Crave Subjugation from Avengers speech. I thought you might pick that one. Yeah, I thought you were going to pick that one.

It's very puny God. Well, that's here too. Classic. My runner-up, though, was actually Love is a Dagger, which I'm just very fond of that scene. Very fond of that scene. Figgie port. Best line delivery. I'll just say, I think this is not only the hardest category for today's pot, I think this is,

and I mean this sincerely, this was the hardest category we've ever had in any superlative we've ever done. Because legitimately almost every single line that Tom Hiddleston has ever performed as Loki could have been the winner here. This was like agonized. At a certain point, you just have to, like, give up and, like, pick one. Yeah, you just go with, like, a fave. Just go with one you look.

That's what I did. One that just, like, sticks or rattles around in your head. Exactly. And I have a few runners up, but mine's really brief. Same. Oh, I wonder if we have the same one. That would be, that would be wild, actually. Steve, will you play my clip?

Oh, dear. Is she dead? Jane. Amazing one. on. Amazing. Once again, Thor the dark world.

Thor and Loki and Jane are escaping. Jane is not doing well because I don't know if you have heard, but there's some like ether inside of her. It's not great. She like collapses and he just goes, oh dear, is she dead? So funny. Unbelievable. I think about it all the time.

Oh my God. Unbelievable. tremendous pick. My pick is also from Thor the Dark World, as were my four runners-up. All of my finalists were from Thor of the Dark World. Steve, can you play my clip? Loki. Hello, Mother. Have it made you proud? Yes. That was on my list. But like... I knew it had to be in your short list. It's perfect. It is perfection. When Jane slaps him, does he go, oh, I like her, right? That's a really good one for Thor of the Dark World.

I love in Third of the Dark World how he says, say goodbye. I always reference that scene about mortality. Yeah. But there are two lines. There are two little clauses and lines in that exchange. They have say goodbye the way he says that is perfect. And satisfaction is not in my nature. That's a really good one.

That's a great one. Trust my rage, also from Dark World. I have one from the Loki TV series because we haven't done, well, I mean, we'll see what happens. It's coming. We're not there yet. but when he says it pairs very nicely with the figgy port the figgy port

the figy port the figy port so funny I also my non Thor the Dark World nominee would be in response to what exactly

makes the Loki the Loki the way that the way that Loki says independence authority style style that's like just absolutely incredible.

That's an all-timer. I almost picked that one. But hello mother, have I made you proud? As he is being marched into the throne room in chains and has that smarm and that bravado but also this resentment

and this need and this desperate yearning. Yeah. The whole character is in that line. The best. Okay. Wonderful one. Most meaningful family moment. This is another one where...

Well, this is one I really wonder if we have the same one. I'm very curious. This was other than bravest, the one I thought was most likely to overlap. But based on some of the things you've said today, now I'm thinking maybe not. Perhaps not. We'll find out in three, two. Why? You were knee-deep in Yotan blood.

Why would you take me? You were an innocent child. No. You took me for a purpose. What was it? Tell! I thought we could unite our kingdoms one day. Bring about an alliance, bring about a permanent peace through you. What?

But those plans no longer matter. So I am no more than another stolen relic, locked up here until you might have use of me. Why do you twist my words? You could have told me what I was from the beginning. Why didn't you? You're my son. I wanted only to protect you from the truth.

Well, because I am the monster parents tell their children about at night. You know, it all makes sense now. Why you favored Thor all these years, because no matter how much you claim to love me, you could never have a frost giant sitting on the throne of Asgard. Guards! Guards, please help! Classic Odin, dip in into the Odin's sleep with her uncomfortable mom.

One of my favorite tropes of all time, which is yell your elderly parent into a heart attack and then immediately regret it. This was my runner up, Joe. I had two runners up. One was an Odin moment and one was the aforementioned Frigga, always so perceptive, but not everyone by yourself. Those were my two runners up. This is a great pick.

The meaningful, sorry, I don't know why my voice cracked on that, but meaningful was sort of like a tough word for me to parse. And like, if your answer is what I suspect it is, like, there's one that's like building bridges, like heartwarming, connectivity, all that sort of stuff. But this is so foundational to understanding who Loki is. This is, of course, of the first Thor film. This is when Loki finds out about his, you know, his parentage, etc. When he says, I'm the monster, you know, like that part. And then how Tom's voice change when he's like, oh, it all makes.

sense now, you know, and he's just in his, I've justified, ranting sort of thing. And this is what I mean about emotional justification, because there's just something here. I've never been a prince of Asgard. I've never been in line to the throne. I've never been a frost giant who didn't know they were frost giant. But, you know, I'm a younger sibling, and there is just like something foundational, elemental about feeling like this. And Odin ever, literally never handles anything well at all. This is just not the move at all. And I just, I love this.

I love his performance here. I rewatched, like we watched everything. And then as I was trying to decide on this, I watched this like five times through. And I just like all the emotional beats, he hits. And this is the wound. This is the wound that he is carrying through everything else that I'm not enough. I'm not Thor.

I'm the monster. All that sort of stuff. Stolen relic is. Stolen relic, as you alluded to earlier. The scene with his mom was also a runner up for me. And there's a deleted scene that is a pair with that that people may or may not have seen from Thor, the dark world where the reason she, like, he says, he denies. He's like, no, I'm not your son.

and then she like says what she says to him and he softens and he reaches out to touch her. She's just a hologram though and her hologram goes away. In, not in the cut of the movie, but in deleted scenes, you find out the hologram goes away because Thor is like walked in and she sort of turns out to talk to Thor. And Thor asks her, did you ever regret sharing your magic with him? And she says, no, you and your father cast large shadows. I'd hoped that by sharing my gifts with Loki that he could find some son for himself. So, like, that idea of, like, giving her magic to Loki, that special connection he has with his mother, you know, really helps inform the beginning of Loki season one, like, when he is really confronting his role in his mother's death and all of that. So, yes, absolutely.

The role in her death, but also, like, when he's showing Sylvie the magic, the little fireworks in the palm of his hand on the train. And when he says, like, she's the, she was the kind of person you'd want to believe in you. It's like always one of the most devastating absolutely heart-rending moments for the character. I love your pick. I love the Frigga pick. This was a really hard category. I like that we ultimately went in kind of the book-ended directions, though,

because that was the pull and the question, and I was trying to, some of it was just, what do I want to pick for each category? And some of it was trying to balance a little bit across his arc and the different properties. But I went less with the foundational wound. and more with the healing of wound and the closure of this deep life guiding and informing pain. Steve, can you please play my clip?

Do you truly think so little of me? Loki, I thought the world are you. I thought we're going to fight side by side forever, but at the end of the day, you're you and I'm me. I don't know, maybe they're still good in you, but. To be honest, that path has diverged a long time ago. Yeah. This is, of course, the elevator scene from Thor Ragnarok. It is right before the comedy of Get Help.

It's a real emotional roller coaster in this stretch of Thor Ragnarok. This is, like, genuinely one of my favorite MCU moments, just period. It's a great one for Thor individually. It's a great one for Loki individually, and it's a great one for Thor and Loki together and their shared arc. And, you know, it's not just that Loki wants to beat Thor or best him. It's that he wants Thor to see him and give a shit about him. Like, I always think of the moment in The Avengers out in the forest fight when Thor has scooped him up. And Loki says, I remember a shadow living in the shade of your greatness.

I remember you tossing me into an abyss. So there's this resentment, but there's also this need. and to build toward, for us to get to see them build toward this kind of moment, where even though they can't like literally just say to each other, some of the things that are on their mind, so much of what's happening from Loki's side of this is happening on his face, these looks, these glances, the emotion in his eyes, much like the moment that you mentioned with Odin earlier in the film

where we're seeing what it means to him on his face. But actually because of that like Loki silver tongue idea and how so many of these key-loki moments are like these twisty, windy, magnetic lines and ideas, there is something about those quieter moments where you're just seeing something wallop him that's, like, really powerful and lasting. And I love that, like, the schemes, schemes and plots, plots and schemes, Joe, the gambits, like, they're not actually done after this, you know, we're moments away from Thor having to use the tag tase to take him out of commission because he was about to try to betray him again.

But there's this idea of like that diverging paths idea and how on the one hand it's not true because Loki will, you know, Cork and Co. They do seem in desperate need of leadership, Joe. Loki will go and he will help on Asgard and he will be there to brag about how he is the savior. He'll be there on the statesman when Thanos and that fucker, Ebony Ma, and then co-attack. But in other ways, their paths will diverge. Like, for us as MCE viewers moving forward, as we've talked about, they're in their own stories after this. And so it really feels like this, like, especially now, like, revisiting it, this just essential culmination of something. Yeah.

I love it. I love that moment. It's a great one. To your point, like, per my earlier critique of Ragnarok, again, a film that I absolutely love is a complete banger, is one of my top Marvel films all time. I do think that Tom's performance sort of fills in a lot of the cracks that I think are in the way the characters written on the page, if that makes sense. And this is, of course, one of the moments that's featured in the TVA file that helps fast forward and accelerate the closure. It's great. It's great. Okay, this next one's a doozy.

I think we're going to have a different fix here. I don't. I don't know. You think we're going to have the same one? I think there were two contenders, and I wonder if we picked the same one, or I wonder if we pick different ones. We'll find out.

Favorite scene partner. The timekeepers have built quite the circus. And I see the clowns are playing their paths to perfection. Amazing. Big metaphor guy. I love it. Makes you sound super smart. I am smart.

I know. Okay. Okay, so we not only both picked Mobius. We picked the same clip of the literal. dozens and dozens that you could have selected because there are so many incredible. That means the brain answer. I mean, spoiler alert, I think the other scene partner can be covered in another clip that we're going to get to next. So I think this is the only answer here, honestly. And here, let me identify. There's so much fun banter between. We love Mobius and Loki.

We're so thrilled. Owen is so good. All this sort of stuff. What I love here is you get a double hit. You get fun. banter, but when he says, I am smart, I know you are, for Loki, who is desperate for approval, desperate for acceptance, that just calm assured, not a big deal, I know you are, is just like such a healing, when you compare that to Loki literally hanging from the edge of the bifrost in the original Thor, say, I could have done it, father, I could have done it for you for all of us, And Odin says, no, Loki. Yeah. And what I love about...

Disaster. What I love about Mobius is that he kind of fulfills this dual role of like both brother and father figure to Loki. Like he's fathering Loki in some ways, but he's also like enough of his contemporary that he is also gets to kind of play the Thor role as well. And so it just feels very... healing for our guy, Loki, to have this relationship. And when you talk about like foils, as we will again in the next category, I'm certain, there's all this early talk about, you know, when Ravana and Mubias are talking about Loki and Runez file or actually, yeah, insubordinate, stubborn, unpredictable. And Ravana's like, sounds like someone I know. And he's like,

sounds like someone I know. But, you know, the ways in which Mobyus is all. Also, like, Loki looks in the mirror and at Sylvie at these other Loki's, but also at Mobius. And Mobius is able to shine back a more healthsome, wholesome, brotherly, fatherly, avuncular almost, like, energy at him. That just is very important to me. Yeah. I think almost every single scene that they share is perfect. Like, Loki season one is my favorite part of Phase 4. It's my favorite non-Infinity saga, MCU installment to date.

I love so many different things about it, but including as you, as you tease, grant some stuff that we'll surely talk about in the next category. But the Loki Mobius of it all, like, you know, it reminded me of like so many of the old Game of Thrones conversations around Tyrion and those, you know, great conversations in elegant rooms. Like the number of Loki, sometimes they're out in Pompeii. In the cast?

They're having an adventure. Sitting in the cafeteria. They're sitting in a time theater. They're sitting in the cafeteria. They're having a meal. They're looking at files. And they're just talking. And I could watch Loki and Mobius talk forever and never tired of it.

Because I'm learning something when I watch it and so are they. Both of them, crucially. And that I think is also like a real. key. I mean, the performances are from both of them are just wonderful. And it's like intellectually riveting and very philosophically stimulating. There's a ton of stuff about free will, one of our favorite things to discuss in a fantasy story that I think is just like absolutely exceptional, especially in the first couple episodes. It's witty. It's acerbic, but it's also like sweet and very poignant. And I think like Mobius plays a really central role in the evolution in the arc that

Loki in the eponymous show, Loki is on. But Loki has, has just as seismic of an impact on Mobius. Like, he is helping to make somebody else better and for somebody else to break through too. A liberator. And that is just such a rewarding thing to watch. Right, right. For him to, like, for him to embrace that he can liberate something in a positive way, right? Yeah.

Like, you don't have to stay full in a press. Again, this is the role of the trickster to interrogate the authority and to break broken systems. and reshape them. And in doing so, you know, rescues Mobius from something he didn't even know he was trapped in. And there's that evolution of like it is self-serving and purposeful early because he has his motive, right? I need to get out of here. Then I need an audience with the timekeepers. But it becomes a genuine and sincere urgent need to make sure Mobius understands that the thing he's saying is true, that the TVA lied to them, that they're all variants.

And that's because he wants Mobius to understand that. it's because he wants to reach Sylvie. It shifts from it being just about himself and what he's trying to achieve to being about other people who have made this impact on him so quickly. And it's just the fucking best. Like, there are so many, I was worried actually that I was going to have too many picks from season one of Loki across the categories. So then when I did was I just wrote down like 20 quotes here instead.

Did you do this? I was like, you're just like literally 20 quotes between Loki and Moses. I'm just going to rapid fire read them to you. And this is genuinely barely scratches the surface of their meaningful exchanges. But here are some of the highlights. I don't like to talk. But you do like to lie, which you just did, because we both know you love to talk. Yeah.

I guess I'm wondering, why does someone with so much range just want to rule? Like, could there be a more foundational question to ask Loki? It's funny, if someone born to rule, you sure lose a lot. You might even say it's in your nature, you know? Things didn't turn out so well for the last person who said that to me. Let's just take a moment here to remember Phil Colson and Nick Fury who dipped Colson's trading cards into... For some reason... I had a, like, a brain aneurysm when I was putting this together.

And for some reason, I thought we had a category of, like, worst betrayal. I made it up. We never had that category. I've totally made it up. But, like, mine would have been Colson just for the record. Shout out, Phil Colson. Oh, boy. If Jomey were here, he'd say something about agents of Shield,

so we'll just do it for him. I know what I am. This is like the comedy part, right? I know what I am. A murderer? A liberator. Of eyeballs, maybe. It's just like...

The mix of like deep existential philosophy and just absolute, like, put-up bomb, symbol clanging comedy is incredible. You've been in the same conversations. There are conversations in episodes one and two are just amazing. Of course, one of your faves, Joe, the heavy keys. I can play the heavy keys. Incredible.

Yeah. There's the, this is episode one. There's the double cruel elaborate trick sequence. There's the one where Loki thinks he's describing what the TVA is doing. And then we build toward this admission at the end. It's part of the illusion. It's the cruel elaborate trick conjured by the weak pointing to himself,

pointing to his chest to inspire fear. A desperate play for control. Mobia says you do know yourself a villain. that's not how I see it. This guy is his prisoner. This is the first episode of the show, and we have one of the most meaningful exchanges in the entire characters' decade-long arc at this point.

That's not how I see it. Like you're saying a few minutes ago, like he needs to hear that from somebody. He needs to believe that it could be true before he allows himself to embrace that it is. A double-crossed my history's most reliable liar. Lyer is just very funny. That was very funny.

Very good. We already hit this one. I see a scared little boy shivering in the cold and you kind of feel bad for that ice run. I got it. I love this one. Actually, I'm surprised this one hasn't come up from either of us sooner.

This is in the long cafeteria exchange about free will and like how Mobius, whose intellect Loki has started to really respect, could believe in this clear lie about the TVA and the timekeepers. You see, I know something children don't. What's that? that no one bad is ever truly bad

and no one good is ever truly good another kind of foundational idea for ultimately both of the characters this one kills me this might be the funniest moment actually this next one oh here it comes the folks he dopey insult

from the folks he dope what am I the god of self-sabotage yeah the god of backstabbing just kind of an asshole and a bad friend brutal That reply for Mobius is so brutal.

Just kind of an asshole and a bad. Right. And then, of course, you could be whoever, whatever you want to be, even someone good. I mean, just in case anyone told you different. And then when they hug and journey into mystery and they're in the void. And then Mobius was mouting to Sylvie. Owens a real gemstone. I want to go eat.

I know something children don't was that that no one is bad. No one bad is ever truly bad and no one good is ever truly good. What I love that comes right after that is like because Mobius is trying to figure something, he's like, scared little boy. And Loki goes, yes, it was quite patronizing. I thought it was a bit too far, actually. Yeah, and then he's like, no, let's talk about Kablui. No, I'm on the case, actually.

Scared little boy. Yeah, I love it. I'm glad we both had Mobius there, the best. You too. Next category where we also shortly have, if not the exact, same moment, at least the same, bearing, without a doubt. I'd be surprised it's not the same moment, but sure. Yeah.

Ooh. I don't know. This is a silver tongue indeed. Most romantic moment. You'll be, stop. Stop. Stop. I've been where you are.

I've felt what you feel. Don't ask me how I know. All I know is I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to throw it. I just, I just want you to be okay. It's devastating. We have the same pick. We have the same moment.

Tom is so good there. Okay, so. Incredible. I'm going to let you probably take the main lead on this one. I will just say that like, the idea of love is a dagger earlier. And then them like literally dropping their daggers and like, you know, this idea of love is something that you like wound with. that you hold people at bay with, like, you know, like, you know, shit metaphor, sure. But like, you know, and then you hear that they're not daggers and they're short swords,

but you hear them clatter as they drop them. I mean, it's just like so beautiful. Another line, the, like, the episode where they just get to be like rompy screwball, comedy banter banter couple, episode three, where do you have it hidden in my heart? Well, then I'll cut it out. Nice. Very droll. I mean, and then the other one, I was confident you were going to pick Sylvie here.

This is just, this is, you should have just been like, and the Sylvie category. But like, there was some small shred of me that thought maybe you would pick them wrapped up in a bad. That's why I run up. Yeah. Talking about how perhaps they, on the other side of this, they could do things together. But this moment. Maybe we could figure out together. Maybe.

Yeah. Not a very snugly blanket, though. No. Is it a tablecloth? It looks really uncudely. Loki's trying to be smooth and then Sylvie being like, is it a tablecloth? Just the most brutal. Brutal feet.

I love that scene. What made you want to return to the TVA, the variants? Ask Loki. You leave your glorious purpose there and he says something like that. And he's talking about Sylvie. All right, Mallory, tell me about this moment here. This kiss and betrayal that happens here. So earlier when we were talking about whether there was any runner-up for bravest moment and neither of us wanted to say.

So the thing I came closest to considering was actually not this, but just like, Loki deciding to stay. Because he's like offered the tempat. He's offered a time door. And he decides to stay with Sylvie and like knowing what that might entail. And it's just such a meaningful thing for the guy who had so many other moments in his life before that would have looked for the fastest way to safety. and some sort of promise. So that was in the mix for me there. But yeah, you know, like you said,

the payoff of the love is a dagger exchange. It's a weapon to be wielded far away or up close. You can see yourself in it. It's beautiful until it makes you bleed. Like, this is the love making you bleed because the thing that happens right after this is a beautiful heart-melting exchange is that she kisses him

and then spins him into a time door into the TVA and then, stabs, you who remains, and the sacred timeline cracks open. Loki cries. It just sits on a stoop and weeps,

and it's like, who among us has not been the god of mischief in that moment? Absolutely broken heart in. Stoop sovin, definitely. Stoop sovin. I just, every time I rewatch this moment

between Loki and Sylvia in the finale, I'm just in tears. Like, I am just so, so moved by it. the I like to think about like we have a fit watch category coming up so I won't spoil my pick there, but I like to think about the evolution of Loki's wardrobe over time and how he is quite literally encased in this like thick armor or leather early and then by the end he's just in like a tattered

shirt. Just in a tattered shirt with a bleeding wound by the end here. The harness though. Don't forget about the harness. I will be returning to the harness. Spoiler. I think you know. I did not forget. Okay, so we just talked about Mobius.

One of the recurring beats is like, do you enjoy hurting people? Right? Leading toward Loki's very emotional. I don't. I don't enjoy hurting people. And so when he says, I don't want to hurt you here to Sylvie, it just means so much more because it is, the truth that he has shaped. with her is the shattering of the lie that has defined his entire life. And like that's what she brought out in him.

And I don't want to throw. Of course, that it's... I don't want to throw. Exactly. The ambition. It's so painful about it. But like, not just his rejection of that, that defining ambition, but it's been such a central fear for her, like that she in that little tablecloth cuddle in the Citadel at the end of time, that he will

choose the path to power over her at the end. And he doesn't, but she, like, is not prepared to believe or accept that. And so when he says, I don't want a throne, it's just like melts us. And the thing that's a couple beats, the moment that's a couple beats before this, that just absolutely shreds me. I think it's the saddest moment in the episode is related to that throne and power idea. When she says, what was I thinking, trusting you? Has this whole thing been a con? And he's like so broken by that. It says, really, that's what you think of me after all this time? Sure, why not? Evil Loki's master plan comes together. Well, you never trust me, did you? What was the point? And I think the thing that best sums up the growth that we see in Loki is that the

Loki we spent so much time with before this, what was the point would have been, that would have been where it ended? What was the point would have won? And he like, he pushes through that to still try to implore her to be with him and to choose like a different path together. Like he's just declaring something with an open heart and he's trying. This is incredible.

I think the reason why this is a runner up for my brave, this specific part, my brave moment is like it's so brave to say no to someone you like to stand up against someone you love. Yes. You know, like that, the thing you want the most, which is her, and for her to trust you and for, you know, to be with her.

Also, I don't know. It's like so raw and vulnerable for both of them. I don't know if you know this, Mallory, but I personally enjoy a character on an arc. And when you, if you decide to slot Loki into these archetypes that we often, like, would we put Loki and Sylviean enemies to lovers and put it in that tropes course, probably? And so when we think about those archetypes, the Jamie Lannisters, the Sawyers, the Spites, the Spike, Like those characters are usually transformed through a love story, right? There is like, I am a villain, but I will be different for you. Or you see something in me that, blah, blah, blah.

What I love about Loki, the TV show is that that growth for Loki, that rapid, let's get back to the character growth in the MCU thing for Loki is bifurcated between this love story with Sylvie and this love story, uh, bromance. if you prefer with Mobius. I love that it's spread out against those things. But I'm sorry, the trope, it gets me. Like, this is the trope that works the best on me of all time ever is, you know, I'm a villain, but not for you.

Yeah, well, and, like, it feels so true to the characters, too, because even the idea that, like, the nexus event, right? This branch that nobody's ever seen rocket so fast and so far, like, the fact that their, the power of their connection could, it could be that meaningful. Like, it connects to a lot of the things that Loki has told himself in his, like, lesser forms and less fully realized forms. And yet it can be part, it can be entwined with a breakthrough. And I like that you don't have to, like, message isn't like leave everything about yourself behind.

It's like, find a way to take the parts of you that can be better and, like, learn and grow. It's great. What a great scene. What a great finale. What a great show. My goodness. Fitwatch. Bitwatch. Let's do it. You already know my pick. I just told you. My pick is the TVA uni, but like late stage. So episodes five and six. He's not in the jacket anymore. Sturdy. Tattered. Yeah. He's in the kind of tattered button down with the like shorn hipster tie, the flat bottom tie. And of course, crucially, the holster. The harness and the holster, which I like to think in my head canon he and Sylvie repurposed for some other uses.

The reason I knew you were going to pick that is because I may or may not have sent you a photo of that along with Draco Malfoy fan art. And I was like, look how Draco coded he is in this moment. It's not my pick, though. I do actually have a sound clip for my pick. Steve Lee played it. Can't see it at the future. I'm not a witch. Why'd you dress like one?

That's a great one. This is from Thor. Thor or Ragnarock. Yeah. Not the hair. We're going to talk about that in a second. That is maybe worst Loki hair of all time. But it's paired with, it's paired with, not for the whole movie, but in that scene, it is like an oil slick on his head.

It is disgusting. But he's wearing this black on black, very naty suit. And it looks phenomenal on him. Good stuff. I love that he's in that outfit and with the really greasy stringy hair when the Thor fans come up and ask for the selfie. He's just like, rolling his eyes. Could not roll his eyes harder. No one has ever rolled their eyes more.

Great stuff. Wonderful. Okay. It's time for, we can only end in one place. Wigwatch, TM with Joanna Robinson. T.M. I'll cast my vote, but I'm really just along for the ride with this one. This is your area of true expertise.

And then I do maybe have a magnum opus that I've written here. Well, I have like, I feel like my takes are going to be controversial here. So I just I'll just say a couple of the ones I like So on the Ragnarok front I will say in a specific scene Actually the same elevator scene that we talked about Like if you go to 1 2915

Disney Plus an hour and 29 minutes and 15 seconds There's a profile shot of Loki Where I like the Ragnarok wig in that phase of the film Because there's an incredible ample amount of wave and curl but there's volume. It's not like way down. Snaky locks. I have that been out of sneaky locks.

Perfect. That sequence. Because later when he's on the floor being shocked, they're like fanned out around him, like little snakes. Yeah. So I like that. I don't like some of the moments where his hair is like flatter. I like when it has a little bit of like bounce.

And then I have like I think maybe a controversial take, which is I really like the short hair in Thor specifically because I like that you can't see it when the helmet's off. Like when the horns are on, it's like, it really feels like he's like being absorbed by this symbol of like strength and might that he thinks he's putting on. And it's like a little less effective when he's got these little wriggling curls sticking out in other films. So I really like the short hair and Thor. Take me through your studies.

Well, here's the shocking thing about wigwash T.M with Joanna Robinson T.M. as it pertains to the many looks of Thor, of sorry, as it pertains the many looks of Loki. Odinson and Lafison. They're not all wigs. That's a very important part. Right, okay?

Of course, yes. And also, when you pay a lot of attention to Loki's hair, as I did in this rewatch, because I knew this segment was coming, my guy loves the hair flip. You know who Yelina Belova needs to call out for hair flips? Not that.

It's Loki, especially, in Loki season one, episode one. The hair flip counter is off the charts as he gets like zapped through time and it's just like every time he's just like flips the hair back. That's because it's his real hair. Let's start at the beginning.

Thor, that is his hair. That is Tom Hiddleston's hair. Died, of course, but that is his hair. Oh, by the way, if you're into Tom Hiddleston hair flips, there is a YouTube video that is 43 straight seconds of Loki flipping. his hair. So if that's your thing, it exists for you on the internet.

How can it not be? Yeah. The Thor movie he has what a lot of people call his Disney Prince hair. It's the shortest. It's like very Prince charming sort of thing. And I like that because he is he's a prince of Asgard in that film. It makes sense. He's not like fully in his villain era yet.

Moves very nicely, etc. And the Avengers that is his hair line, like it's the top of his hair. But then they added the knife the hair dagger extensions at the bottom this is what it's known as the christmas tree hair uh is what the fans call it hair daggers is what i call it very greasy not a fan of it took him an hour to get those extensions in every day an hour for the hair

daggers to be sewn into his very real hair so something that's true of lovely tom hitleston who was again only 30 when he started on his journey here is that this is a man with a receding hairline This is just a fact of this very handsome man. It is true of him, but you will notice in Thor of the Dark World that it is luscious and thick, and that is because this is when we were in Whig territory. We're moving to Whig Territory with Thor of the Dark World. This is his longest hair. This is his depression hair in the sequence when he drops all illusions.

And we see, we go from like the prison cell in pristine condition to it being. wrecked him sitting on the ground with the side part and the curl sort of covering half of his face. That's my favorite look, by the way. Prison cell, depression hair. He's so low, he can't even groom his hair. Love it. No filter.

Love it. Ragnarok, also wig, as we've already parsed, there's the like, uber greasy in the sunshine of the Australian street where they're filming or whatever. It just looks disgusting, like dripping. But the later snaky rocks are pretty good. Pretty chunky. sideburns on that wig. Not a huge fan of the chunky sideburns myself.

Okay. Infinity War wig. End game, definite wig to match the Avengers hair daggers. They're back better than ever. And then in Loki Season 1, this is Tom's hair. Tom in a lot of time.

But here's my fun, the most enjoyable quirk of... So it's long. This is the longest that Tom's hair ever is, but that is Tom's hair. Does the hair continuity really line up when he pour out of Avengers into the desert? No, it does not.

Not at all. Listen, whatever. But what I love about that in season one is, you know, as we all know, a lot of low-key season one production was put on hold because of COVID. Tom had to have his low-key hair all through COVID because you never knew when you were going back to work. So much like Zoe Kravitz and Robert Pattinson had to stay in the Batman shape all through COVID.

Tom had to keep re-dying his hair. I suppose much like Tim Olifon has to keep bleaching his hair for whatever it is he's going to do when the sag strike is over. Everybody else is just like giving themselves home haircuts and shaving their heads for ease of use and he has to keep the loki hair. Tom's like got the clare-all, like extra black dark bottle bottle die out. So any Zoom interview you see Tom do over COVID or whatever, he's got the Loki air. in a Zoom call. So that's the tour. I'd say number one,

Thor the Dark World's curly Depression hair. Number two, I am with you. First Thor movie. Yeah. Disney Prince's hair. I like it.

Oh, I was worried that it wouldn't pass the Joe test. I'm thrilled. And then I think number three is Loki. I like that it's his hair. You know, a good wig is a good wig,

but like if you're tossing your hair constantly, if you're in fights, if you're all the sort of stuff. It's got some nice bounce. Yeah, it's got bounce to it. And I like the strong, you know, peak, the widow's peak on Middlesons hairline. So, yeah. Incredible. Big watch.

What an absolute joy that was. You let me know when you want me to do. Talk about a character on an arc. You let me know when you want me to do Natasha Romanov because I am ready with a lot of strong wig tics. That might need to be a standalone pod. Seriously. On like a key anniversary. Incredible.

Joey did it. Our first house of our Hall of Fame. Welcome to the Hall of Loki. Here, enjoy your golden apple. You're getting the golden apple. Don't try to eat it. All right, friends. Trust is for children and dogs,

and hopefully this podcast was too. Thank you to our favorite tricksters. Steve Allman for producing this episode. Or Junoam Gapal for his additional production work on this episode and Jomea Daneron for his work on the social for this episode. Head back into the Ring ofverse. Tomorrow night for the Midnight Boys instant reaction to the Asoka Friday night for their instant reaction to the Loki premiere.

We will be back on House of R at the end of the week for our Asoka finale deep dive and then a couple days after that for our Loki premiere deep dive. Until then, remember, love is a dagger. It's a weapon to be wielded far away or up close. You can see yourself in it. It's beautiful until it makes you podcast. And it pairs well with a biggie port. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination.

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