House of R - The Marvel Villain Rankings With Clay Keller

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

Mal and Joanna are joined by special guest Clay Keller of the ‘Screen Drafts Podcast’ to conduct a draft ranking of the greatest on-screen MCU villains (20:47). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Guest: Clay Keller Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe.

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You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Darling, you have no idea what's possible. I'm the man who can give you the one thing you want. An empire toppled by its enemies can rise again. But one which crumbles from within, that's dead forever. And welcome into the world. ringerverse here on the ringer podcast network.

I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to the quantum realm, but also to join us on the ringer's nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, filled, positively overflowing with glorious purpose. It is my house of our co-host Joanna Robinson. You know, Mal, you've been around. You've recorded a lot of people, but where does that bring you back to me? Oh, boy. If anyone can't tell from the opening clips from the references so far in the intro,

we are one week out from Quantum Mania, which means we're one week out from Kang the Conqueror, which means MCU villains are on our minds. We're going to be talking villains today. We will explain how in just a moment. but before we go subatomic for that exercise, some quick programming reminders. As always, this Wednesday, the Midnight Boys.

Beep-poo! Conducted their second annual Black Heroes of Fandom character draft that is up for you right now in the feed. Please enjoy that if you haven't yet. Next week, this is an actual programming update. Slightly different schedule than usual. Mint Edition will be here on Monday to break down all of the Super Bowl trailers that hit the nerd verse.

Okay, junior mince, get ready. Then on Friday, not Wednesday, Friday, the Midnight Boys will be back with their instant reaction to Ant Man and the Wast Quantum Mania. That means no House of Ar next week. However, great news. You'll be able to hear us elsewhere and then lots of times on House of R the week after that.

We will be on the prestige TV podcast feed on Monday of this coming week. for the Last of Us, episode five, deep dive. Monday, not Tuesday, because that episode of The Last of Us is posting early because of the Super Bowl. Then, the week of February 20th, Ant Man Deep dive on Monday. That Friday, the 24th, Mando season three preview time. Top Mando moments. Mando watch list.

All of the Mando goodness. I'll be holding multiple bits of Grogu merch in my arms. Prying as I pod. Will I have a Baskar helmet on and try to get my headphones to work in concert with it? Who can say? We'll find out on Zoom together. Joe, how can the people follow all of them? Oh, my God.

I'm so glad you asked me because there's a lot, you know, there's a lot going on in a schedule manner. Anyway, okay, listen, follow the podcast. Why not? Why not just subscribe to both this and the Presti's TV podcast feed if you want to hear us talk about the last of us, which why wouldn't you? So subscribe to both those feeds. Follow us on social. Jomey's doing a lot of great work on all various platforms.

Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, et cetera, great stuff. Also, you can always email us, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. The Apple debate continues to rage, horrifying chapter developed over on the Prestige TV podcast to be this thing. Truly distressing. One of the worst things I've ever heard. Mushroom recipes are cooking.

You know, if you have Mando prep questions, all that kind of stuff, you can send it to Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. That's it. Joanna. Yeah. It's not it. I have one more question for you and it's this. What did I forget?

Can you tell our cherished listeners? Yeah. What is in store for them today on this here podcast episode? Okay, beloved pals, you've heard many kinds of drafts on the ringer. perhaps over on the big pick. You just heard the Midnight Boys go toe to toe to toe on Wednesday. Malloy and I are doing a very special. Whoa, you didn't mention the hype draft that we did, which I won.

Why didn't you put that one up when you were going through recent drafts? That was weird. I don't know, because whoever lost that draft, that was a horrible miscarriage of justice. I need to get that mention in at the top before I embarrass myself today. Give me this one moment in the sun. I honor your win, but I refuse. to acknowledge my complete decimation in that draft. Yeah, so the hype draft, that's the thing.

But today we're doing something a little special. We've got a pal over from a different podcast, a screen drafts podcast. Clay Keller is going to be joining us a little bit to commission a draft for us that is a very special kind of collaborative, competitive draft. Clay will be able to explain all the details. But essentially at the end of all of this, Mallory and I will have together, but also in that sort of feisty fighting ringer-verse way,

combatively put together our 15 top Marvel villains. We are doing movie-only MCU villains. There are some particulars that we can talk about, but that is what we're doing today. We're really excited. I thought this was going to be a really simple exercise, and then I got into it, and I was like, oh, no, there's a lot going on. So, yeah, we're drafting today. I hear chaos is a ladder, though that's a villain from a different IP universe. So we'll see if that applies here today.

Where is Aidan Gillen in the MCU? That's my question. Just workshop in a new accent. Yeah. At all times. At all times. We'll see. Okay.

So the why. The why are the villains on our mind. As mentioned, King awaits. We're on the eve of kingdom. The eve of being conquered. MCU Phase 5 finally kicking off next Friday, February 6th, Ant Manon in the Wafs Quantum Mania, and the film's main villain, of course, is Jonathan Majors' Kang the Conqueror,

who is not just the primary villain of this movie, but we now know, after the clarity about phases 5 and 6 and the slate in the multiverse saga, the big bad, the main central Thanos-level threat of this saga of this saga of the MCU. So there's a lot on the line. Let's chat for a few minutes here, Joe, before we get into our drafting

and our ranking about what we're expecting from King. We met He Who Remains, the variant, and Nathaniel Richards variant in Phase 4's Loki. And that was an absolute thrill.

So we have some very encouraging evidence in front of us that we should be expecting something marvelous here. What are you looking forward to most from Kang? What is on the line for Marvel for Phase 5 for the Multiverse Saga heading into an Ant Man movie where we have typically gotten less central, less prominent villains in prior installments.

Yeah, this is a surprising place, but maybe not so surprising given the way that Thanos was sort of... In the Guardians' family. Yeah, ceded in, you know? But it's... they're, depending on how you look at it, look at it, there's a lot writing on this. Depending on how you feel about phase four, some people are really, really low on phase four, all the movies that have come out since endgame.

Some people are high on it. Some people are agnostic about it. They're just like, I'm just here for a good time, not a long time, like whatever it is. But, you know, if you are hoping that the MCU will sort of, if you feel like the MCO needs to rebound, then I think this idea of coalescing around a big, threat like Kang and Kang who, canonically in the comics, can go through time,

can appear in multiple guises, like is very flexible as a villain and can just sort of spread out everywhere. Something you and I have talked about, Mal is like how after the Loki finale, we expected Kang to show up, like, in everything.

Yes, a new variant in every single. And every single thing, and we haven't seen them since. So, you know, and it's possible that we will see him everywhere going forward, but that has not, the era of Kang has not started yet. So, you know, in a certain way, from a certain point of view, there's a lot writing on Kang. And, you know, that excites me because we were not podcasting regularly together during

Loki season one, but I know that you and I shared a thrill of that finale where they zagged from a lot of, you know, Marvel final confrontation. quote unquote the Marvel third act problem, et cetera, by having a character monologue for most of the episode and sort of just talk our heroes into something. And Jonathan Majors is such an idiosyncratic performer, so interesting, so compelling, that I'm really excited to see what he does.

So I'm a brimming with enthusiasm and excitement for King. How are you feeling, Mal? I'm similarly hyped. I'm really looking forward to the moment. movie. In general, I really like the Ant Man franchise, and I think that part of what I've always loved about it is the quirk and the charm and relatively speaking, the small zoomed in stakes. Like, it's important in the context of Thanos. This is something we've chatted about a lot on our various pods over the years to be able to like, look at your house, look at your street,

look at your neighborhood, remind you of what's on the line for you and your family all around you. So when you shift the Ant Man franchise, which of course is always connected to the quantum physics of it all and gave us our end-game quantum tunnel time ice plot. It puts so much of this movie in the quantum realm and center it so fully and hitch it so fully to this larger time travel multiversal plot that is defining this stretch of the MCU. It's an interesting balance. Like, will the film be able to hold on to that heart and that particular sensibility that made it so specific, while also unlocking this really crucial elemental next phase of the MCU mythology, I'm excited to see how that plays out because there's not just a lot on the line

for this movie. You know, we're setting up. Who knows how many, like you just said, we thought we were going to see Kang and everything after Loki. Who knows how many times that will actually be true after Ant Man, but we do know that we're building no matter how many steps there are along the way that feature Kang or a Nathaniel Richards variant, we're building to Avengers the King Dynasty. We're building to Avengers secret wars. Like, this is the road toward the most consequential installments in the multiverse saga. Kang is at the heart of it all. The Thanos Guardian's point that you made was on my mind a lot too, because of course we get our very first, you know, initial glimpse in the form of a wink and a death mention of Thanos

in Avengers, but he's lurking. He's in the shadows. And of course, course, the infinity stones are dotted throughout phase one, and that is there from the beginning. But I think there's, despite all of the angst in real time as phase four was unfolding about what are the unifying threads and who will the primary threat be and where are we going and what are we working toward, that when we look back further in phase five and certainly in phase six, we will see that there are pretty clear correlaries both on the king front. And if you swap the multiverse, the explosion and shattering of the sacred timeline, the way that we've begun to explore the different continuities and universes, to the way that the Infinity Stone canon was sprinkled and dusted throughout and eventually stitched together into a more centralized deployment. So I'm hyped.

Like you said, I love the point about the just monologuing because that's the other thing that they have to nail, right? when you're talking about multiverses, it's big, it's mind-bending. That's part of the fun and that's part of the draw, but it can be, it can be on mooring for viewers at a certain point. And so if you're able to anchor it in that Tyrion-lanister-esque,

like great conversations in elegant rooms, it gives it a human face and a beating heart that ultimately is going to feel really gripping and magnetic, just like that Loki finale, which is still one of the best the hours of Marvel ever. And Joe, crucially,

when we trace, talk about tracing things back, tracing back the canon, the origin of the Apple discussion, here on the ring of verse. Eating at Granny Smith. You know, you know it to be true.

Already shaping our lives. To go back to your, just to circle back to your point about like, once we look back on phase four, yeah, or phase five and four together, something like that,

like it will feel intentional. or stitch together. And I do have a lot of faith in Marvel to be able to do that. And I think something that people forget about the Infinity Saga and Thanos and all that sort of stuff is that it wasn't an intentional plan that they laid brick by brick leading up to end game. I know you know this, but like, you know, for something like Guardians, the first Guardians,

like that was a wacky one-off. Let's see if people like this. And if they don't, we'll just sort of kind of pretend it didn't happen. And so the fact that Thanos has such a role to play in there is so interesting because, like, there is a world in which the guardians are never folded into the larger continuity. Or similarly, the Infinity Stones, like it wasn't their plan all along to see the Infinity Stones necessarily in the way that it wound up happening. But to your point, what Marvel is really good at is that eventual stitch job that makes it all feel cohesive and woven together. So I'm with you that I'm really hopeful we will feel that weaving. the tapestry from them in phase five.

Yeah. Imagine thinking that there was a future that didn't hinge in full on awesome mix, volume one. I just can't fathom it. Yeah, I actually have a lot more to say about that, but I'll say that for a different time. Joe, are you more of a...

When we think about the comics canon and the history, which obviously we will delve into much more deeply on our Quantummania Deep DivePod, which again, you can hear on the ringerverse on Monday, February 20th, follow the pod on Spotify, wherever you get your podcast. It's a teaser. Yeah.

Are you more of a Rama Tutt head? You more of an amorous head. Has it been Iron Lad for you all along? Like part of what is so interesting and compelling about King, this time-traveling variant spawning villain who is able, because of the timeline connections to face off with and confront not only so many different versions of himself that spawned across the canon, but so many different versions of our heroes, all of these fabled comic run showdowns with the Fantastic Four, with the Avengers, etc. Is there something in the comics canon that you want to throw out on today's pod ahead of the eventual film deep dive that stands out to you as like something you really enjoy about the way Kang is deployed in the text on the printed page,

something that you think teases and promises a bright MCU future? As you know, because we are going to be doing like a massive Doctor Who piece this year, I love a wibbly wobbly, timey-wimmy sort of storyline. So I think that Iron Lad, which is the Allen-Hinburgh Young Avengers, a story of a version of Kang who jumps from his own timeline to try to make himself a hero as a young man to avoid his villainous future. There's something really beautiful about that. I think that's such an interesting story.

Are they going to do that in the MCU? I don't know. We've been talking for literal years now about the little seeds of young... Everything is building toward Young Avengers, including this. Everything. The Young Avengers seeds that we've seen everywhere.

Mallory and I have not seen Quantumania. We don't know what happens in quantumania. So anything that we're talking about here is just like theoretical or whatever. Pure speculation. Absolutely. But I think... think that idea of a Kang who, I mean, like, unless they go real wild with the visual effects,

that's probably not a character that can be played by Jonathan Majors, then that's, you know, not my favorite outcome necessarily. But I think Iron Lad is so interesting, this idea of someone who sees their future as a villain and tries to make themselves a hero. That is such a complicated, sticky idea. What do you think? Yeah, I think, like, well, I'll speak for myself. I would have said heading into Loki that the idea of seeing anyone other than my God King Tom Hittleston playing Loki would have been an affront and an offense to we the MCU viewing public.

And of course, that was part of the real joy of watching Loki was not only seeing the different versions of Hiddleston variants, but other performers embodying a different version of Loki entirely. I guess, by the way, on this front, we should issue a spoiler warning for today, which we didn't do, which is just anything that's ever happened in the MCU. So, buckle up. We can talk about anything that's ever happened inside of the MCU. Full stuff. Or Marvel Comics or related IP from other studios that have some shared character rights or co-production.

So basically just superheroes and comics. Yeah. That's the spoiler warning for them. Some DC stuff might come in. You never know. Joe, is there anything else on the King front, on the Quantumania Front, on the what makes for a successful Marvel villain front that you want to hit up top,

we will probably stitch throughout our draft and our ranking the what makes for a successful Marvel villain logic as we go. But in this opening snapshot in terms of the big picture variables, anything else you want to hit before we dive in?

I don't think so. I have a lot of, I do have a lot of points I want to hit, but I think we're going to hit them as we talk about individual characters. It's been really fun for me to think about what,

because there's some things we've talked about in the past about what makes a great Marvel villain. But I feel like this is going to allow, I mean, we're going to be zipping through a lot. We've got 15 villains to go, but there's a lot to talk about. I'm really excited. How about you? Anything big picture you want to hit? I don't think so. I'm, I'm ready. Should we bring on our guests? Let's bring in Clay. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess.

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Clay Keller, hello. How are you? I almost just said, welcome. I'm so not used to being a guest on podcast. Yes, hello, thank you for having me. I'm so excited about this. We're so excited you're here. Something I don't know that you've ever seen is Mallory in her draft phase.

and even though this is collaborative, it's fun. No, Mal, it's a great time. Yeah, I don't think that'll be the energy today. That's what you said last time. No, but we were fucking rivals then. You were my foe and I needed to thwart you. We were nemesis.

That was the point and the intent and my sacred mission, which I held dear. But today, I'm viewing this as working toward a shared future and building something together that fills us both with joy and pride. Clay, can you explain to folks? I'm not. Well, basically anything anyone

predicts before a screen drafts is a famous last word. It's, you, I, Melley, I love your energy. I love the positivity. I can tell that you're going to be. Wait, really the first time anyone has ever said

those two things back to back. I can tell you're going to be. I love your positivity. No, that's not true. That's your hallmark except in a draft space. And I just want you to remember that last time the hype draft,

you were like, this is going to be a nice draft. And then Sean got ground under your heel. I thought that we would all be excited and celebratory talking about things we were looking forward to watch. But also that we would all want to destroy each other, which again is not my mindset today.

Okay. That is, Mallet, absolutely, I always encourage people to go into these as optimistically as possible. And I love, I love your energy,

if only because it'll make what eventually happens, all that more tragic. Yeah, it usually works out for the Marvel heroes when they face the villains with a really optimistic sunny outlook.

I can get through to you. We can solve this together. We're not so different, you and I. You guys were talking about Iron Lad seeing his eventual villainous self and wanting to go back and change things.

I have a hunch, that's how you'll feel at the end of this. But we'll see. Sometimes these things are totally copacetic and everybody is just please just punch at the end. Joanna, did you want me to explain? Sorry, I'm just going to keep going into host mode

unless you stop me. But tell me what you would like from me. I would love for you to become the host of this draft and explain to you to our listeners who have never heard of screen drafts how you can be both collaborative. and competitive on a draft. At the same time.

Well, yes, thank you, Joanna and Mallory. This is Screen Drafts is presented by the Ringerverse. I'm Clay Keller. I host what we call commission a show called Screen Drafts where we make definitive best of lists of given topics of movies. And as Joanna said, we have a spirit, an ethos of competitive collaboration.

Now, a lot of people, I know a lot of people listening to this and are in the Ringer universe, understand sports. So they're probably going to say, wait a minute, what you just said. Joanna included. Definitely understand sports. Understand sports. You probably understand what the word draft means.

Put that out of your head. The way we use the word draft doesn't really relate to drafts at all. You know, this is not a fantasy football style draft where Mallory and Joanna will be picking things from a pool to put onto their own teams and then to compare afterwards and pick a winner and a loser. Mallory and Joette are going to be more like co-GMs in a back office trying to put together their perfect single definitive roster. It's more backroom bargaining here in a competitive collaborative sense. What's going to happen is there's going to be a drafter A and a drafter B. Draftor A is going to get to make picks 15, 14, 1210, 8, 6, 4, and 2 on the

list. That's eight overall. Draftor B is going to make picks 13-11-9-7-5-3 and number one. So that's fewer picks. That's only seven. They do get the number one pick, and they're going to get another kind of bonus thing that I'll talk about in a second. So it's an alternating situation going back and forth. Joanna and Mallory are going to be making the single definitive best-of-list for the topic today, which is MCU movie villains. And it's not a situation where there is a winner or a loser, either for Mallory or for Joanna or even for the world. The only winner is the entire world,

because this is the new unimpeachable definitive canonical best of list for villains. So Mallory and John, are you feeling confident to bear this burden for the rest of the world? Or are you nervous going into this? Joanna, you were saying up top, you felt pretty confident, as you always do when you come on the show. You're feeling pretty confident. And then right before you were looking at it again and saying, oh, no, oh, no, oh, no.

It's, I'm confident about the top and I'm curious about the middle and I'm really scared about the bottom. So, you know, like the – and one approach to screen drafts is you can just like relax about the bottom and just have fun and be chaotic at the bottom because it's lower stakes. But, you know, Mal and I have spent a lot of time talking about the MCU. I've listened to Mallory in her binge mode era talk about the MCU a lot. So, like, I think I know all of her opinions, but, like, there's a devious little brain up there. And I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm frankly, often terrified of Mallory in a draft scenario. And so I'm excited for this to test our friendship.

Mallory, do you agree that Joanna probably knows all of your opinions? Or do you have a couple of tricks up your sleeve? No, I have no secrets from Joe. There's not going to be a single thing I say today that surprises her. I will be surprised by something she says, though, I think. She's a rich and nuanced text, and I'm just out here like Loki, though, for years on the Ringer Podcast Network. You know, it's my, I think my favorites are well established. We'll see, though, I do believe.

And this is where I think I'm simultaneously most confident and most prepared. to be wrong, that there is a clear, almost in arguable top nine. Top nine. Wow. Now, not the order necessarily. I think you could quibble on how the characters

are ranked inside of the nine, but I think the characters who should be in the top nine are clearly the characters who should be in the top nine. So if we don't agree on that, This is the source of my anxiety today because my worry is that we're both going to be utterly and completely true to ourselves in the earlier picks. Get to the point of the draft where we realize we did not in fact both agree that there was an irrefutable, inarguable top nine and then wind up with a top 15 that is missing a couple characters who simply must, must be on any top 15. MCU movie villains list, thus forever robbing us of our credibility

and ensuring that we have to podcast from secret locations under assume names in the future. In shame. Obadiah stain. Tony Stark Bepps. That's going to be Steve about our podcasts every day from here on after this.

I cannot wait to build this draft from a box of scraps with you. We will soon see the wisdom of voluntarily bringing me here to put your credibility on the line. I know. I know. Top nine, a firm rigid top nine. Declare. Absolutely.

Do you not think so? Oh, no. Now I'm really worried. It's one of the boldest called shots in the history of screen traps. I can't wait to see how this goes. I feel like there's a firm top, like an irrefutable top three. Definitely. There are tears within the nine.

And again, the one of the nine could could be fluid. But I just don't want to let you down, man. Oh, God. And don't. Okay. All right. It's already scary. Then don't.

If we're going to get to this ironclad nine, we got to start back at 15 because that is the number that Joanna and Mallory are drafting today. This is a two-person. What we call on our show, a mini-mega draft of 15 titles. And the one thing I did not mention yet as part of the rules is that there is a wrinkle in this game, a blessing, as we called it. It is a veto. Now, each player, Joanna and Mallory

are going to start with one veto. How the veto works is that if, let's say, Mallory plays a title at a spot that Joanna disagrees with, either its inclusion on the list at all, or perhaps just its inclusion at that placement. Maybe she thinks it ought to be a little bit higher. Joanna can veto it.

It knocks that title off of that spot, but not out of the game. It goes back up into the pick ether and can be played by anybody higher up the list. Now, I said drafter B, who gets fewer overall picks is going to get a little extra blessing. That is the extra blessing. They're going to get an additional veto. So drafter B is going to have two vetoes to drafter A's one veto. So when we get to picking the draft order, the decision will be a little bit more difficult. Now, normally on screen drafts, we do a nice long trivia

back and forth to determine who gets to pick the draft order. But we don't have that kind of time today because we have to talk about 15 movies. So I have a quarter and we're just going to do an old-fashioned coin toss. Is that right, Joanna, Mallory? That's the plan. You know what, Mal? Yeah, I was going to say, Mal, you've never done a screen drafts before. Would you like to call it?

I want Joanna to make the same thing. You want Joanna to call it? Okay, Joanna. not? I call tails. You're calling tails. Okay, let's see here. I haven't flipped a coin in like 15 years. Okay, here we go. Ah, no, nope, it's on the ground. Let's see. Is it?

Excellent radio. It is heads. All right. So, Mallory. I don't want to make the choice. Can it, and like, you know what, can I, can I defer? Like in an NFL game? You know, could I defer the, can I say I don't, I want my ball to the second half and stuff? You're 15 seconds into your first screen drafts and you're already trying things and no one's tried before.

Wait till I asked you if I could potentially save both vetoes and turn them into a super-powered mulligan at the end of the draft. Wait till I throw that one your way. That's a great idea. No, Mallory, you won the coin toss. Okay. The decision is yours.

Do you want to be drafter A and have more picks? No. And those first two. picks at the very bottom of the list. You set the tone. Okay, you do not. You want to be drafter B. I want, yeah, I want to be drafter B. I want Joe to go first and have the 15th and 14th picks, which means I will have the number one pick and I will have the double veto, right? All right. So Mallory's going to have two vetoes. Joanna's going to have one veto. Oh, boy. And Joanna is going to kick us off with the 15 and the 14 at the bottom. And then once

we get to the very tippy top of the list, Mallory will have the pick at number one. She's really made no bones about what her intentions are for that. So we'll see strategically how that plays out for her. Okay. Here we go. I have received Joanna's pick here at number 15. How this is working is Joanna and Mallory are going to be direct messaging me their picks and then I will announce them.

Then we'll talk about them and see if there's going to be a veto coming down the pint. My heart is racing right now. I'm so nervous. No idea about that. happen. Okay, here we go. I am so glad, as often on screen drafts, kind of the whole idea of it is that I don't know what I'm talking about. My co-host, Ryan, occasionally knows what he's talking about. So we bring on experts and enthusiasts to enlighten us on these things. I'm, I've seen every single one of these movies. Listening to you to talk in the opening,

I was like, maybe I have, maybe I didn't, maybe I haven't seen these? Is it possible I've spent 30 hours of my life. I've seen many of them multiple times. Have I spent a week of my life watching these movies only to not have watched them? So I'm glad that you two are doing this. I'm a total neophyte. What I'm interested in looking out for...

Is there anything else, by the way, that we need to say on that front in terms of what properties are actually eligible for inclusion? Or do we think that's clearly established? Let me just reiterate it one more time. So it's MCU. Yeah, let's just lay out the parameters,

which is like MCU, which to us is all the movies produced by Marvel Studios, including the co-productions that they did with Sony with the Spider-Man films, those are included. So those three Tom Holland Spider-Man films are also in the MCU. If it's an official part of the MCU, phases one through four to date on the film front. There is a slight wrinkle when it comes to television.

We are not doing TV villains. Howevskis. If there is a villain who has appeared in a movie, and also in a TV series on Disney Plus, we're allowed to use some of the context from Disney Plus to defend our choice to put them on the list here. Does that sound right, Mallory? That's exactly right.

So if a villain has only been in a television show, not eligible, if it's a movie villain who has some extra canon that we want to account for in the TV shows, we can mention it. So like Agatha Harkness, Catherine Hahn is not going to be on this list because she's only been in a television show. Yeah.

It was not. Maybe we'll do a future TV villains exercise. Who could say? It was not Agatha all along as far. as we're concerned today. So that's where we are. Yeah. All right.

So don't be looking for Easter eggs. Don't be trying to figure out who's actually a whatever. It was a straightforward MCU villains. Joanna and Mellie just laid it out. What I'm curious to look for in this is, you know, there are different villainous organizations represented in this world. How many individual villains from each organization? How many different villains from each sub-franchise?

I am curious to see are represented here on the list and different types of villains. There's super villains, white collar villagins, white collar villains, bureaucratic villains, Rebecca Hall should have had a bigger part villains. There's lots of

different types of villains here. So I'm curious to see, as Mallory was saying, how much you're just going to be dictated by your own personal taste or if you're going to try and get a nice little smorgas board going. There are different players of, approach this different ways.

So I am... It's an interesting prompt, too, because I think, like, there's a version of this where we would have loved to rank 50 characters, right? And part of... Like, we love the television shows in the way that that's expanded the universe. And part of the logic for keeping this movie specific is to put some parameters in place. So once you do that, do you still have that full and vibrant mix that you're outlining, Clay?

I think the answer is, yes. But we'll see. I just want you guys to know, you're going to be... You're so glad that Clay is here because Clay is saving you from Mallory and I drafting every single Marvel villain, which was something we considered. We're like, are we going to put all of these villains in order? And we decided that wouldn't be great radio. A lot of chatting about, it's a villain. What's an antagonist?

Who's just an impediment? Can we rank 90 characters in one podcast? A henchman, like, you know. And then in terms of your question of organizations, I will just say a blanket, Malin I decided like, organizations themselves are not eligible. So we're not drafting like, we're not drafting Hydra. So Hydra is not allowed,

but a person who works with In Hyder would be allowed. So there you go. Fantastic. Well, look, I, for one, would have loved to have heard the every single villain draft. And it, look, it's possible. You just, over on screen drafts,

so we just got done doing every single Steven Spielberg movie. It did take us three episodes and about 18 hours, but it can be. done. Okay, but we're going to move much quicker than that today, as per the instructions I've been given. So let's get started, kicking off the ringer-verse MCU villains mini-megadraft with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. Joanna's got the picket number 15. She has sent it to me,

and we've got kicking off the list, our first inclusion from the Thor sub-franchise. At number 15, Joanna has selected Christian Bale as... Gore the God Butcher. I just loved all the looks that happened on Mallory's face where she was like really scared that I had a different Thor villain out here. I started going Malakis being cursed my fellow Mal right here at 15. What a twist. No mouse will be drafted today, I think. I didn't I didn't rule out you doing something utterly brazen and rogue at 15 to force my veto. I considered that a real possibility.

Oh, well I was I didn't mention. I didn't mention this Mallory. We do frown upon what we call like bad faith veto grab plays. You know, we allow the whole point of this. Is it bad faith if Joanna really actually in her heart loves the dark elves, though? And as the person on this podcast who has said many times that Thor the Dark World is an underrated classic, wait, I'm forgetting which of us has said that? And the best best installment of the franchise, I think, is a... We allow for a broad range of personal opinions, but say you and Joanna had talked many,

many times about how you both absolutely love Loki. And then Joanna was like at 15, Loki just to try and draw out of Vito. That's something that would be frowned upon. That's dirty pool. But Joanna would never. Joanna would never. No, but something clearly knows about me is that I do burn through Vito's very quickly every single time when it screen draft.

That's true. Joanna does that hang on to Vito's? Yeah, I don't think I've ever played a Vito higher than five or something like that. Joanna, tell us about your pick at number 15, Gore the God Butcher. Yeah, people might be surprised to find Gore the God Butcher on here because Thor, Thorloven Thunder is not a beloved film. But something that I was surprised to find as I was amassing these villains together is, spoiler alert for my picks, this is not my last phase four villain.

Phase four, something that we talk about a lot in Marvel in the first few phases is this idea, for a while Marvel had this reputation of like Marvel has a villain problem, right? Like, you know, we already invoked Malikyth the Dark Elf. There were a few villains that were sort of like buried under prosthetics or their motivation, was just like world-domin, you know, like sort of paper-thin villains. And certainly not all, and there's plenty of phase one material here. But I think what phase four might have as a hero problem, because there's a lot of great villains in phase four. I had a really good time.

And like oftentimes walking out with something like Thor, Love and Thunder, I was, Gore the God Butcher was like kind of my favorite part of that film. So I was like, well, if you're the best part of your film, then like you probably belong on this list, even if you're down towards the bottom. And when we talk about villain fights, I mean, the Gore the God Butcher fight is one of the coolest fights

that's ever happened in the MCA, I think. So, yeah, I want to Gore, and, you know, it's Oscar Winner Christian Bale. What can you say? Dripping black goo out of his mouth. This is great stuff. Oh, boy. Yeah.

Mal, any objections? Joe, all gods will die, but this pick will not because I actually had Gore higher on my list. Okay. I love this. Great. Yeah. Not like much higher. I don't want to scare you.

But I definitely agree with that logic. Strong villain showing, the kind of villain who actually outperforms the movie and leaves us wanting more from the character than we got. And obviously, like, the berserkers, the pursuit of eternity, the use of the all black, the actual performance, not enough to be a top 10. villain, and I think that there's a little bit still left in the bone with gore in that movie on the thematic front compared to the comics arc, which we both love. Right. But a fun, utterly weird performance that we'll enjoy revisiting.

I like the pick. Great. See how collegial and supportive I'm being already? Oh, yeah. Everything's fine down at 15. This is where I thought things would be absolutely just. utterly chaotic. After one pick, I am loving Mallory's positive energy.

There you go. Gore the God Butcher here at number 15. You know, there's a thing, meme or whatever people like to do on Twitter, which is like so-and-so didn't have to go so hard on this project, but they did. And I'm always like, yeah, no, they did have to go that hard. They probably got paid $5 million.

They, of course, had to go that hard. It's their job. In this case, I do think that Christian Bill did not have to go that hard for Thor Love and Thunder because no one else did. But he is, he goes all out in that movie. Okay. So I've got Joanna's pick here at number 14. I am wondering if this will be controversial. It's a character I love and a performance I love, but I don't, I'm not really plugged into the wider conventional wisdom of NCU fans.

So I don't, we'll see about this. Okay, here we go. At number 15, Joanna played Gore the God Butcher. Mallory was fine with that. At number 14, Joanna has selected our first inclusion from the Avengers sub-franchise. At number 14, Joanna, has selected James Spader as Ultron. Joanna, tell us about Ultron. I'm like, I'm so sorry this isn't a video podcast because I would just love for everyone to see Mallory's like fear and confusion turn into like

Miling approval. The contentment when you know that you've chosen to live your life with someone you adore. That's what I'm feeling right now. This was my big question mark. I was like, this morning I sat up and bed and was like, I don't know how Mallory feels about Ultron. Oh, no. This was the one that I was actually nervous about too. I was like, is Joe going to disown me when I select Ultron, which I would have been, which I would have been doing.

So carry on. Okay. Something that's really fun in villainy in general, but specifically in the MCU is a idea of a character that's a dark reflection of our hero. And specifically in this case, there's, again, spoiler, this is not the last villain on this list that is like the fallout of Tony Stark's ego and innovations. I know you're making your argument here, but if I may interject simply to share my favorite Tony Stark quote of all time, which is from a later film, Captain America Civil War,

Ultron, my fault. My B, essentially, right? My fault. Ultron, something that a really good villain does is forces your hero to confront something about themselves. We'll see that again and again on this list. That's something that Marvel has done pretty well. The reason Ultron is so low,

Ultron is a fan, you know, I love James Bader. Ultron is a great comic book character. This movie just really let this character down. I think. And so Ultron is a, Avengers' Age of Ultron is real low on my overall MCU rankings in general just because of the failure

of potential that's available here. Ultron could have been one of the top tier all-time villains. It's, you know, like there are moments like when he comes like limping it talking about no strings on me like all this stuff that's like really spooky

again, Spader giving great performance. But the movie movie lets them down, and I just wanted so much more from Ultron. We got a bit more in like, what if that version of Ultron was a lot more exciting. So if we want to talk about some Disney Plus context, that's some context. But really all that shows me is how much I was let down by this movie. Mallory, I've chosen to live my life with you. I feel infused with hope and happiness.

What are your Ultron opinions? I'm delighted. Great. right now. This is just going wonderfully. I once again, not only did I have Ultron on my top 15,

I had Ultron higher than this spot, too. I won't say how much higher. But, and again, much like Gore, just a few, slots higher,

not like far enough up the list that I think it would be worth using a veto to force us to select Ultron. Like, next. But I agree with everything you said.

The Tony aspect, the way that the hero, the hero's pursuits, you know, we spawn the thing that we come to fear and loathe. The actual lines of dialogue from James Bader as Ultron in this movie, the way that he cuts with those vibranium blades right to the heart of our characters, our heroes, fears, and insecurities. Captain America, God's righteous man, pretending you could live without a war. Fucking amazing.

I love the end conversation too with vision. You're unbearably naive. There are a lot of really great bits with the character that left me wanting more. I agree with you. I think it's a great pick. You're crushing it. Oh, right. Here's the problem.

I try to crush Socovia with the meteor that he built. Should I be birving with happiness right now? Probably. However, the fact that Mallory said both of these. were higher, means that I have people on my list that she absolutely does not have on her list at all. And that... That makes me nervous. Worries me.

Yeah. All right. There you go. I was going to say, all smiles across the board until Joanna planted that seat of doubt in everybody's minds. But there you go. Joanna gets her first two picks on the list, Gore the God Butcher and Ultron at number 15 and 14. I guess I'm in the minority on Age of Ultron. I think it's kind of underrated.

I think it's pretty solid movie. But that's just... There's another villain in that movie. It's certainly an immensely consequential movie that sets the stage. It goes in all directions to connect to various characters and plot points and is like elemental to the infinity saga in a way that I think actually heightens some of the letdowns. Well, and Clay famously loves a farmhouse. So, you know, Clay was like, I wish I wish the whole movie were in a farmhouse, right? That's how you felt.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I mean, watching, well, I love a farmhouse too, you know, watching Steve Rogers to tear. logs in half with his bare hands. Wonderful. Quicksilver wearing, and I say this was a lot of love for the Adidas boost technology, but literally shoes I have at home to be a superpowered being in this movie? It sounds like you're just not using those shoes to their full potential. It's true because I certainly not only don't use them to run, but never leave my home or wear anything but slippers and pajamas. So you might be onto something. valid note. All right. At number 15 and 14, Joanna got her picks on. Mallory, we are over to you

with your first pick on this list at number 13. And you're ready. Okay. Here we go. All right, at number 13 with her first pick on this MCU Villains draft. Mallory has selected. Okay, another first. Our first villain from the Tom Holland Spider-Man. sub-franchise, and an interesting one, because we're sneaking in a little bit of old Sony action into this list as well. At number 13, Mallory has selected Willem Defoe as the Green. He's something of a scientist himself, folks. And I think he's right at home here at 13 on the ranking. If we were ranking all villains across all superhero movies, have absolutely no doubt that he would be higher on both of our lists show. But given the

parameters of the exercise, which is the Feige emceu verse specifically, I think that if we're being pure of heart and intention, we have to account for what Norman Osborne and the Green Goblin did in Spider-Man No Way Home, a movie that I love. And acknowledged that a lot of the stock that we're putting into that comes from prior movies and prior canon made by a different studio and a different cinematic universe that we can't really in good faith incorporate into the argument here, which keeps them right here at 13. Strong enough to have it all? Two weak to take it. That's what he would say about his fellows, but that's not true for us, show, because we are going to grasp on to that relevant Sony canon where we can and build the most robust and layered list

great movie, fun to have all of the old Toby and Garfield foes and antagonists return into our lives and into our screens to face off with our three Spitties. This Green Goblin got up to some fucked up stuff. RIP to our beloved May, now and always, still not over it. I think this is the appropriate slot for this film and this cinematic universe. What do you think, Joe? I'm thrilled to report that I had Green Goblin only like a little bit higher. And so this is similar to how you felt this is how I feel about this number 13 slot.

We had a pre-draft discussion about how much context we were given specifically these No Way Home villains. And when you and I agreed that it was just within the context of that movie, that made my draft so much. I was like because to have to contend with like everything around Doc Gawk and everything around Green Goblin, I was just like I can't. grapple with all of that right now. So purely contained to that movie, this is still a fall arc, you know, because we still get to meet Norman Osborne, you know, sort of pre-fall.

We get to see scientists, nice guy Norman Osborne is also in this movie. But I, yeah, you know, Woldefo, one of the most iconic comic book villains of all time. I'm glad that we got this taste of him, and I'm glad that he's on this list, but this is right where he belongs. Yeah, and this movie unlocks a lot of the fun aspects of the character,

not only the tech and the introspection and the deeply psychological nature of his villainy and his pursuits, but we're not only playing him off of Peter, May, happy, our heroes, but off of so many other villains who are these points of comparison when we think about the stories and the movies that have resonated for us over the year. So it's a really effective, boiled down. It's like a reduction. Yeah. I don't cook a lot, right?

But it's like if you're reducing a sauce into that flavory essence to give you the hard and burst of it without giving you that whole potful, that's what this version of Green Goblin is. But what we're missing and we'll get this in some other characters that are probably higher up the list is like that deeper personal connection to our main hero. Right? Because like in his own movie, in the Tomu-Muyer film, you know, he's like knows that people. and, like, is that, you know, that kid's best friend's dad and, like, a titan of industry and all this sort of stuff? And he doesn't have that personal connection outside of, like, you know, a couple days to our Peter. So absent that personal connection and personal connection is the theme that's going to come up again and again as we go higher up the list. Definitely.

All right. There you go. So far, no vetoes at all. Green Goblin from Spider-Man No Way Home here at number number. The real joy of this movie was just realizing that all of these great actors coming back were not cameos. When they said all these people were going to be in the movie, I thought there was going to be something where Tom Holland got sent through some sort of a portal and cut glimpses of everybody as he shot through space or something. And then watch this, you're like, oh, Willem Defoe. All right, he's bringing it.

And then, wait, another scene? Hold on. He's still in this movie. It was fantastic. Okay. There you go. Green Goblin. We're back.

Excuse me. I don't usually podcast this early in the morning. You guys are real pros. Okay. Going back over to Joanna. Now I'm getting nervous. Honestly, not just for your next couple picks,

but for mine. Because since I had Gore and Ultron higher on my list, even I will be picking characters higher than I wanted to for the next couple of picks, I think. This is scary. All right. Over back to Joanna with the pick at number 12. We've got our first villain

from the Garter. of the Galaxy franchise. And up to this point in the draft, both Joanna and Mallory have been grinning ear to ear, much like this actor as they're introduced in this film. At number 12, Joanna has selected ego as performed by Kurt Russell. Joe, we're really alive here. Okay, maybe this will be a frictionless draft.

That's great. I thought this was going to be one of the ones you yelled at me for. Oh, no, no, no. Okay, so this is our first, but I would say probably not our last bad dad on the top 15. Yeah. Top 15 Marvel MCU villains. We talked about emotional connections to our hero. This is obviously like a big moment for Peter Quill to like have found his father, you know, play a game of catch.

And then, you know, the horrible monstrous reveal of what ego has been up to, ego's involvement and his beloved mother's death, like all of the. this sort of stuff. But something else we like to talk about when we talk about any kind of villain, but also definitely specifically Marvel villains, is that sort of idea of contagious charisma. So to cast someone like Kurt Russell who is just like so charismatic and he comes through, I mean, you get the like opening de-aged montage of like seducer Kurt Russell and you're like, yes, the hair is feathered. We are doing, we're having a great time.

And then you get, yeah, like genial dad Kurt Russell. hero of the space Kurt Russell and the crushing turn that happens here is really effective. Kurt Russell's obviously having so much fun. He's got that raw force of personality

that's going for him here. I love this performance. I don't think it needs to be any higher than this, but in terms of bad dad-dness, I wanted him here. All right. Yes,

Drax. He's got a penis and it's not half bad. I love this. I had ego at 14 on my personal ranking. So pretty, pretty much right around here. Pretty, pretty good. You know, as Yandu, as Yon do says to Peter in volume two, he may have been your father boy, but he wasn't your daddy.

And I just love that part of this movie. As you know, Joe, because I've shared this video before, the year we did binge mode Marvel, number one on my Spotify wrapped that year was father and son because I listened to it 5,000 times after rewatching this movie and that heart, as you said,

the family ties how that pushes people apart or brings people together, villains and heroes alike across these stories, one of my favorite things. And I think this is a great pick. I love it. We're so in sync. Look at that.

we're powering our own expansion, you know. We don't have celestial seedlings out there like ego did, but just as strong of a battery right here on House of R. But like, this is the point in the movie when we're playing a game of catch, and then what's going to happen, Mal? You know what I mean? It's true. Am I about to discover the just heaping pile of skeletal remains?

I think you know. Clustered in the remnants of your list. This is the hard spot. Oh, boy. All right. A quarter of the way in. So far, so copacetic. Joanna's pick of ego,

played by the... I always forget how versatile Kurt Russell is. And he... No one can be more charming and then on a turn in this movie, but in other movies as well, go to full fucking creep villain. He's so impressive.

A skill he's handed down to his son who maybe hasn't gotten as good of a character in the MCU. But yeah, he's fantastic. Mallory. Good old Wyatt. Russell. Wow.

I had such high hopes for him in the MCU because he's so great. It's not over yet for him. Mallory, you just said something the effect of this is a hard one or this is where it gets tricky. You have the pick at number 11. All right. Here it comes. I feel, I will say, I feel good about this pick. if Joe vetoes this,

I think things could get dark quickly. We could head into some unpredictable territory in a hurry. Here we go. All right. Here we go. No idea of this character is on Joe's top 15. But I hope so.

There we go. I've got it. I've got Mallory's pick at number 11. And our first dip back into a previous sub-franchise that we've already had on the list. At number 11,

Mallory has selected Jake Gyllenhaal as Mysterio in Spider-Man far from home. It's easy to fool people when they're already fooling themselves. And that's what we would be doing if we tried to argue that Mysterio did not belong on this list.

this is a great, really fun, deranged performance that has a lot of the hallmarks that we look for and that will clearly be recurring through lines of our ranking as we build it today. First of all, there's the actual aptitude of the central figure. This guy's a genius. He's got the illusion tech.

He's got the master plan. He's really hot. That helps. It helps. Folks. With the illusion. It does. Let's just be honest about it. He is motivated by that direct tie. Once again, Tony Stark, we ask you to pause and consider what you've done. Had you not named Quentin Beck's life's work, barf, where might we all be? Edith, at least, I think, would not have wound up in Quentin's hands. And that gets us to, of course, dear sweet Peter, Parker, a hole that is a chasm in his heart, a Tony-shaped hole, wants someone to fill it,

wants another mentor, wants another pal, and Mysterio manipulates that desire with a cruelty and a ferocity that I felt pretty compelling to watch and enjoy revisiting. And his actions spill into future films. The reveal of Peter's identity at the end is the launching pad for No Way Home, the movie that we all had so much fun talking about for so long. And I'm going to throw this out as another boon to Mysterio's case. Sure, it was a lie. It was a deception.

It was a bunch of bullshit and a con. but he played up the multiverse as part of his illusion, Trailblazer. Did he actually give Kevin Feigy the idea for the multiverse saga? Who can say? I think Mysterio deserves a lot of credit for being ahead. He told Peter, don't ever apologize for being the smartest person in the room. And he said that because he knew that he was. Mysterio.

That's my pick. What do you think, Joe? Will it shock you to know that I actually had Mysterio a little higher? than this. Let us come together to enrage all the Taylor Swift fans who are currently listening to this podcast and rally around Mysterio. I think, you know, we already had the Green Goblin on here, but I think the Spider-Man Tom Holland villains, who again are tied so directly to Tony Stark and his actions, I love this idea. This is something that, like, Dave Gonzalez's first flag for me, this idea that, like, Tony Stark's mistake.

or fallouts from Tony Stark's actions are what Peter Parker has to clean up. And this idea that Peter Parker, who, like, hero worships Tony in the first film and then is, as you say, mourning Tony in the second film, but still has to grapple with the mistakes that his hero idol has made is a really rich text that I absolutely love. Jake Gyllenhaal is extremely hot in this film, and that does not. hurt his case. But yeah, I love how thoughtful

these Sony Spider-Man villains were, the Sony Marvel Copro Spider-Man villains were, especially coming off the back of the way the Spider-Man franchise was floundering and the massive villain problem that it had for a while.

And so you can really feel with love and respect to Amy Pascal and everyone at Sony, you can really feel Fige's hand here being like, okay, let's just really deep dive and root this villain in something much more interesting and definitely intertextual with the larger MCU. So, yeah, Mysterio, big fan. Glad he's here. All right, there you go.

Mallory thought that one might throw Joanna for a loop, but Joanna's right, right on. I was nervous about that one. No veto. As my mother said, it's easy to fool people when you're really hot. Mysterio at number 11. I love about, I didn't love this movie,

but what I love about this villain, this character, is there's lots of psychopaths in the MCU villainary, rogues gallery, not as many sociopaths. And Jake Gyllenhaal is bringing almost like a, well, actually, you can see I've got him over my shoulder here. He's bringing sort of a Tom Ripley energy to this role that is really interesting. Wait, Malison, do you better line reading recall than I do. What does he call that one woman who's working with him, like, Hun or something like that?

Like, that's the moment where I was like, this guy absolutely sucks. Yeah, I have some notes on Mysterio's managerial style. Yeah, that's what he was like, could you do that for me, Hun? And I was like, oh, oh, this piece of shit. I could be meeting the queen at any moment. Needed the costume steamed, Joe. Needed the costume steamed. Could have been meeting the queen at any moment.

All right. There you go. Number 11. Mysterio. We're kicking into the top 10 here, so we're nearing Mallory's ironclad nine. I'll just say, I had one character in the bottom five who has not been selected. If it's not that person here, and it's one of the characters from the top nine who is here, that someone's entering the top nine who I did not consider a top nine candidate. And that'll be a real, that'll be a real thing for us to work through in real time together.

As a pair, as a duo. All right. Well, let's see as we hurtle towards the cliff here. Let's see who we have at number 10. At number 10, I've got Joanna's pick. Another first for a sub-franchise. And this one, it's not just the first for the sub-franchise, it's the first for this particular sub-mariner.

At number 10, Joanna has selected from Black Panther Wakanda Forever, Namor. Oh, the first disgruntled sigh from Mallory here. Okay. Kulkan, the feather serpent, God himself. Namor is here

for a couple of reasons. Number one, this is, I think, depending on how you feel about God butchering, this is our first villain that I really feel like we're sitting in the villain is right actually territory. Not in his actions.

but in this idea of trying to defend his people and a people who have been oppressed and wronged. This idea of Namor as a dark mirror of our protagonist, Shuri, and also a villain who is redeemable is the argument that the film makes at the end. To Mallory's point about Jake Gyllenhaal, thick thighs save lives, and we absolutely...

loved Janoswerta in this role. And as we were weighing the pros and cons of Wakanda Forever and Phase 4 in general, we both really agreed that there was nothing negative we could possibly say about Namor, about the way that he squared off against Ramonda, against Shori,

the glorious visual effects of his kingdom. I just had a weird fight with a friend this last weekend where she was like, I just don't like underwater civilizations as like a blanket statement. I was like, that's, okay. Have a conversation with James Cameron.

That's not a problem you, it's not a problem you run into that often. Oddly specific. Let me talk to you about my beloved Tolcoons in the way of water. Yeah. Sheesh. But yeah, speaking of like contagious charisma,

all that's, all the stuff that you want in a Marvel villain. and a great potential future for our character that, as Mallory pointed out on our Wakanda Forever podcast, was long anticipated by comic book readers. Mallet have already seen your displeasure with this, and I don't know if it's because you want Namor higher, you want them off the list altogether, so what do you think? Okay.

I have Namor a lot higher. A lot. So I'm considering, I'm just going to work through my logic on my mind. with you in real time. I'm considering using one of my vetoes. I have two. I could use one here to force him higher up the list. But what if I want to do that one else? And I use it here that I don't have it. And then we have a crisis at the top that I wish I could account for in some way and I can't. Do I care enough about the gap between 10 and where I have Namor to use the veto? Oh boy.

And the thing is, if I do use the veto, my worry is that you'll end up picking a character here who I also have much higher. And then where will I be? What will it have been for? What will I know what to do? You've outlined the difficulty you're facing and all the different potential possibilities.

That's that, you know, Joanna, on screen drafts, you often deploy your vetoes early in the game. And sometimes, you know, How often do you regret it? And sometimes it is something you regret. But do you have any objective advice for- For Mallory here facing her first true crisis with a veto here?

I'll say this to you, Mallory. Every time I've done it, I've been absolutely outraged. Do you feel outraged that Namor is this far down? I don't feel outraged. But I also don't anticipate feeling outraged by any of the selections from here unless you really went totally rogue. with a pick at some point, but I guess it's possible,

but they would have a second veto to use in that case. You do. I guess like one of the things I'm weighing. That's the thing, right? One of the things I'm weighing is like, let's say we get to, you're making your pick at four.

And you select a character who I think should have been lower on the list. There's something I could do about it at that point. The lower picks have been made. It is what it is. So all I can do is exist right here in this moment in time. Unlike Tony Stark, I can't actually

To put a suit of armor around the world I will say I'd him I've got 10 characters sitting on my list right now For nine remaining spots Uh huh Is that good or bad?

So I have someone here that you Don't even have a list Yeah That means I should maybe save my vetoes But you just maybe said that to make me say that Yeah, is this you're gonna You're gonna let Joe Joanna get inside your

head like this movie? Okay, well, let me ask, let me return to just for shits and giggles because I'm a maniac. The little colonel I threw out here. Well, Joe, I have

a character at, the person I had at 13 on my list originally hasn't been selected. So it's possible it's the same characters are just in a slightly different order, but maybe not.

I don't know. There's a, I don't know. If I somehow got through the draft with both of my my vetoes intact, what would my reward be?

Because I think that if if I'm over on screen drafts, I would get to save it, I would get to bring it into the next draft, it rolls over, what's the equivalent boosts here because otherwise I have no incentive not to use them.

So what's my incentive to potentially hold on to them? What is my incentive? Are you going to need both of them at the top? Am I going to do in real time at a challenge is like Jeff, we need right.

And they barter, they haggle right there. Let's do it. Am I going to do something so batch it at the top that you're going to need both of your vetoes? I don't know. Are you? Am I? All right. This is where on screen drafts my esteemed co-commissioner Ryan Marker would start doing this cute little thing he does where he counts down from five.

So Mallory. Yeah. I'm going to start counting down from five. and at the end of it, you're to decide if you want a veto or not. Five, four, three, two, one.

I'm not going to veto. Not going to veto. All right. I'm a coward. Damn it. That means if you're not vetoing that Namor is our picket number 10 and you, how do you feel about this?

This is the final placement for... Can I tell you where I had Namor or should I not reveal that? Should I not reveal that? I wouldn't reveal it if I were you. Is that tipping too much? I already said he was higher, so that's enough context. I'm glad Namor is in the top 10.

I'll say that. I think that's more than appropriate. You know, like Joe said, just an iconic introduction, an incredible performance. And I loved watching Namor in this movie. I legitimately can't wait for Namor to return into another story soon. I enjoyed spending time down in Telecon. I enjoyed learning about his,

child without love mutant origin story. I loved those quiet conversations between Namor and Shuri. I loved the parallels between Telecon and Wakanda. I, you know, I guess I can channel Namor. He said only the most broken people

can be great leaders. And that's how I feel now. Like, I'm broken by this placement. But I didn't use my Gito. So only the most broken people can be great drafters, I guess. We'll find out when I make my next pick. In the words of Namor.

Bear your dead. Mourn your losses. You are queen now. I just have no idea what's happening from here. This is like, there's one character I have a real question mark on about where you, where you have this person. I think a lot will hinge on that. So now that I've taken one from your Ironclad top nine, you have a top eight that feel ironclad. And I have 10 characters here.

So who are the two characters I have that you're like, fuck them? You know what I mean? I'm legitimately afraid to find out. Afraid, Joanna. But I think that you will really like my next pick. I do feel confident in that. I believe this is a character you really enjoy. I think it's possible you'll have this character higher on your list.

But I know it's a character that we both like. I'm going to type it to Clay now. All right. Mallory's sending it over. Had our first dust up there at number 10, but Mallory electing. I just had an absolute crisis. I like, my God.

Mallory electing not to use either of her two vetoes. My prediction is I will be taking both vetoes with me. If I didn't use it there, I don't know that I'm going to. Well, that's it. Look, in terms of incentivizing, I'm happy anytime you all want to do a, you know, a screen draft style thing, I'm more than happy to return. If you want to roll over those vetoes, we can certainly discuss that within the continuity of the ringer verse. And let's also discuss and keep thinking about just right here among the three of us in real time over the next half hour or so, whether I should have a two veto supercharged mulligan to change a pick after the draft.

Let's just think about it. Let's just think about it. Something to consider. Oh, well, there you go. So you got Namor at number 10. Really interesting villain. My mileage varies with very serious, very aggrieved villains. I'm kind of more in the bag for the kookier villains.

but Namor, really interesting stuff tackling there in Wakanda Forever. Okay, I've got Mallory's pick at number nine. We are returning to the world of Thor. And this is a villain who, in the movie, I don't know, this is never, I had an involuntary. This never had a movie before. In this movie, when this villain walks towards the screen and says, bow to me. I had an involuntary response where I nudged forward in my seat as though I was about

to try and bow in the theater. That is the God's honest truth. And there's no one else I would bow for than the one and only Kate Blanchett. At number nine, Mallory has selected from Thor Ragnarok, Hela. Fake. Most of this stuff is fake anyway, weak, smaller than I expected. That's actually not bad. Now this, this is truly special. And that's how I felt about Hela in Thor Ragnarok. Goddess of Death. First of all, supremely, supremely powerful. Fenris Wolf. Shout out Fenris Wolf now and always. You know I love an animal, Joe.

The necros swords, the power shattered, muleer. My beloved milaneer. My beloved, here with her bare fucking hands. What more do we need to encapsulate the might of hella? Bonus points for the sheer comedy of dispensing with Fandral in like literally two and a half seconds. That was an all-timer. Great stuff. Calling out Odin on his bullshit and his hypocrisy, I love it and I'm here for it.

And because this all happened after his death, he wasn't there to just dip off for some Odin's sleep, like the fucking coward that he usually was in the prior stories. Those family ties, Joe, here it is again. As Thor will later say to the Guardians, families can be tough. And we see how true that is right here in this film with Hella. But it's not just the might. It's not just the style and the fun.

flare. It's not just those connections and that deep-rooted history so deep that to be buried in hell itself. It's that hubris. Another thing that we love in our villains. What ultimately thwarted Hella. Well, it was the coming together of our heroes, them finding common cause with each other, beautiful, so that Hella could be subsumed by Sertor and Ragnarok. Look, who among us, it happens. It happens. But she got caught looking. She got caught trying to steal a base,

thrown out, embarrassed with the game on the line. Thor said she's just the worst. We think she's the best, but not actually the best. And that's why she's at nine instead of one. But this feels like an appropriate spot for Hela. What do you think? You ever hire?

You're going to veto me? I had her just like one slot higher. So this is perfectly fine. It just means there's like two in my middle that I have some questions about. whether or not you just need to throw them out the window. And like, and like curse myself for not playing them lower because now my like Gore the God Butcher is in here,

but my like two people in the middle aren't. Ella's great choice, obviously. Fantastic. Hella was supposed to be the villain in Thornt the Dark World, except, you know, some people were like, women won't sell toys, so we won't have a woman be a villain in this movie. And so we got Malikythe Dark Elf instead, as we can all agree, a great move.

Oh, well, but Joanna, in defense of Disney, I have about 45 dark elf toys here just off screen. So those moved. Those moved like crazy. Hotcakes, right? Yeah. Oh, my God. And you certainly wouldn't have bought any hella toys to use however you want to use

them in your own, the privacy of your own home, Clay. Okay. We are an equal, no, I mean, listen. You talked about bowing to her in her theater. We are... I want to clarify, before people come after me, she does not say bow to me. She says, quote, kneel before your queen.

So I just wanted to... It felt wrong as I was saying it. I'm deeply ashamed. I wanted to set the record straight. Neal before your queen is what she said. We're an equal opportunity, you know, lusting place here on the ringer verse. And so since, you know, we have talked about Mysterio,

we have talked about Namor. So why would we not talk about how good Hella looks in this movie. My goodness. The idea of a mirror villain, like a dark mirror, right, of not just Thor, but also, of course, Loki in this film is really important. And also this idea of like, and I think I mentioned before, but this idea of like your villain should really teach your hero something about themselves. That's a really, really dense and cool and chewy thing for a villain to do. So for Hela to lay bare the truths of Odin's kingdom to his sons, specifically to Thor, for Hela to take everything from Thor, which was sort of the mission statement of this movie, was to sort of just strip down that character and rebuild him from scratch so that Chris Hemsworth could have more fun, which we all enjoyed in that film.

And, you know, I think, and as you say, like to crush the freaking hammer, like all this stuff that happened, it's such, such an interesting pick for this secret sibling to enter this already fraught sibling relationship that we've been following since almost day one in the MCU. And Kate Blanchette is just incredible. just choose every bit of scenery. She can get her perfect teeth on. Love it. Hello. Fantastic.

Things are gone great still. All right. Every time that Mallory has made what she thought might be a controversial pick, Joanna has said, no, that's okay by me. I had a one spot higher, not worth a veto there at number nine. So, Joanna, we are over to you. We're cruising past the midpoint here. Pals.

Yeah. You need a break? Can I take a bathroom break? Of course. Of course. This is where we'd usually take an intermission anyway. So let's take an intermission. And before we come back, I'll give a rundown of where we're at so far. Oh, it's great.

This is the state of the list. The Ringerverse MCU Villains mini-Megadraft. Number 15, Gore the God Butcher. 14. Ultron. 13. Green Goblin. 12. Ego.

11. Mysterio. 10. Namor. And nine. Hella, we'll be back with the top eight picks on the list in just a minute. And we're back. Okay, I just gave the rundown of the list thus far.

We've got eight picks remaining. We're here in the middle of the list, and we are back over to Drafter A. That is Joanna Robinson. The pick in the middle. This is exactly the middle of the list, right? Okay, so the pick here in the middle of the list. we have another first entry for a sub-franchise

and actually something that's not even really a sub-franchise yet, as there's only been one film for this particular hero. And y'all were talking about daddy issues. Let's just keep that discussion going. At number eight, Joanna has selected, I hope I pronounce this correctly,

Zhu and you, as played by Tony, Leon. In Shang Chi and the legend of the ten rings. Was it ten? My God.

My God, I just, my feet, that was like running down the hill and my feet just kept going and I was terrified. Joanna, Tony Leong, Jew and you here at 8. Yeah, we love a bad dad. We love evil dads, evil uncles,

etc. The movies that are being made now being made by Star Wars fans. So the shadow Darth Vader looms over many, many things. Be they made by JJ Abrams or Damon Lindelof

or Kevin Feige, the Star Wars Boys are out to play. And so our Vader figure here, I love Tony Long like just in general, just anything he does. I find him to be like one of the most charismatic actors of all time. When he was named for this movie,

I just lost my entire damn mind, so excited. I would have put him even higher were the final showdown not so disappointingly CGI dragon heavy. Like this could have been one of the all-timers. Mal and I talk about like the Obi-Wan show that came out last year, which is not necessarily a perfect show, but like a showdown between two people that can just like be between those two people having a conversation. I don't know why Marvel decided they needed a big dragon for this for this moment when it could have just been a father and son conversation. But this is also such an interesting moment in the MCU

where they are circling back on some decisions that they made earlier. So, of course, this is a re-engagement with the idea of the Mandarin, which they executed in one way and in a creative way in Iron Man 3 to avoid some stereotypes. But then they sort of like revisited again maybe how that wasn't even the best way to tackle it. So love Tony and this, the swagger, the style with which he wears those rings with the rolled up, like, shirt sleeves. Just, I love this character. And Mallory is not looking angry or upset.

So here he is, Mallory. I had one who we will hire on my list. So I'm thrilled with the selection and simultaneously, officially terrified. What's up here coming on your list at the top that I am not anticipating? I have genuinely no idea who I've overlooked as a candidate on your list. We'll see.

I love this pick for all the reasons you just said, Joe, just a wonderful performance from a wonderful actor, those family ties right at the heart of it, yet again. And I loved how central he was. You know, the flip side

to the CGI heavy nature of the final act is... how just central he is throughout the entire story and how prominent the examination of his history. Sometimes that's through the ones of mythology with the Ten Rings, with this long life that he has lived. Sometimes that is through an examination of a love story and a family origin and then the shattering grief that split that family apart and guided all of the decisions that then let our car. to this place with each other. Those themes of identity and longing and purpose and that abiding and guiding pain

was just really compelling to watch. And I thought that dunking on Iron Man 3 was great. It was great. Something that I wanted to say about, I mean, again, phase four villains, pretty fucking solid, right? But Wenwu is so interesting as we talk about Kay, because that idea of like, extremely long life, so the weariness that comes with that. And then, you know, again, we haven't seen quantumania. But historically with Kang, this idea of, like, a love story as a motivator for a lot of actions.

Like, the fact that Wenwu is drawn to this portal not because of like a bloodthirsty quest for power that he has experienced, pursued that. in his life, but because he hears the voice of his beloved, is, you know, again, adds, like, so much nuance to this character in a way that, you know, Marvel's just really in this phase war era paying attention to giving us heroes that we can empath, villains that we can empathize with their motivations. Same with Namor, et cetera. So, yeah. All right. And you get such a shortcut to all of that, Joanna, when you cast Tony Leong. You've seen any of his work outside of Marvel, particularly his stuff with Wang Kar Wai. Nobody has sadness, regret, longing, kind of behind the eyes than Tony Leung does.

Fantastic in this movie. But I'm with you as well, Joanna. Got to the end, I just wanted to have him and Changchi hash it out. And every time they cut to the wide open field with a bunch of CGI things coming down and Aquafina going, whoa, I was like, all right. Yeah, so what I want. Yeah. I know I'm not supposed to be. reveal future picks, but I will be taking the

Dwellerm Darkness number one overall. All right, Shue Wenwu at number eight. We are moving on to pick number seven. Number seven, this is where a normal screen drafts list would typically begin. We usually do a top seven with two people, and now we're getting into

that realm. We are back over to Mallory with the pick at number seven. And Mallory, we are now cutting into your ironclad top nine here. Before I Zoom chat, you might pick, Clay. I want to take one moment and apologize to Joanna for what I'm about to do. Because I know that she has this character higher.

I know it. I don't know that you know that. Here we go. Yet again, Mallory predicting... Will I be right with a single prediction today? Who can say? Controversy. And Joanna, look, all vetoes, all three Vee.

Vito's, one belonging to Joanna and two belonging to Mallory, still out there in play. You heard Avengers assemble. Wait till you hear Vito's assemble from us at the end for our Mulligan. Oh, what if it's like three Vitoes for a mulligan? Exactly. Clay. Really, like, heightens that message of teamwork. Yeah.

What you can do if you choose to do it together. I want to be magnanimous because I'm a guest here, but there's no, there's no mulligans in screen drafts. You got to live. You got to live with the list. There's no... You're going to different continuity today. No Mulligan. Got to live with the list.

All right. Okay, here we go. From a villain at number eight, a villain who's only appeared once in a sub-franchise that only has one entry, we're moving to a villain that, I mean, off the top of my head,

I think, has probably appeared as much throughout the MCU as any other. as any other. I'll be corrected when we get into it, but it says he gave it away. He, it's a male character. That's not getting away much. Looms, well, no.

I suppose not. Looms is large over the entire proceeding here as almost anybody else. At number seven, Mallory has selected our first villain to originate in the Captain America sub-franchise.

None other than Bucky Barnes, aka the winter soldier. Joanna is thinking. Joe's pissed. I knew it. I knew it was a risk. What if I told you? This is exactly where I had.

What? Exactly where I had. I love it. This is beautiful. What a vibrant partnership we have. Oh, my God. And I'll be curious to know if your logic is the same. I knew that's who you were thinking of.

You thought my lust to have Bucky Barnes. Not your top three, but I thought maybe five. Maybe five or four. So I assume our logic will be the same, which is Bucky Barnes as a character, and to Clay's point, as a figure who populates the bulk of the MCU.

Bucky has been a part of our MCU journey for ages. Top-tier character as a villain, specifically as a villain. And now I will kind of issue CECU, to my caveats here because I think that the villain who's on an arc and is a hero elsewhere is a point in favor of some other figures who might come up higher on the list. But the different, maybe, who could say? But I think the difference with Bucky is it's a couple things. One, his stretch as a central villain is really concentrated comparatively. And also, it's not his choice. And that's the biggest thing. He's ultimately a part. He's a brainwashed weapon of Hydra, winter soldier ready to comply, souped up on serum,

a titanium and then later vibranium arm, masking up before it was in vogue. Good for the winter soldier. Obviously, we need not even say, because it is so well established, almost unbearably hot, just like a 10 out of 10 out of, 10 no notes from us.

That's a point of agreement, I know. The biggest point in Bucky's favor is, obviously, that connection to the hero. The connection to and history with Captain America. Joe Russo gave a quote in an interview back in 2014, a Washington Post interview, that I've always loved not only for unlocking something about this movie and this dynamic, but more broadly, in terms of these throughlines, what makes for a really rich and impactful villain? and he said, the hero's only defined by the strength of a villain.

And this is an incredible villain because he can emotionally undermine the hero. And that is thrilling, thrilling, thrilling to watch. But also, again, Bucky's not doing that because he's chosen to or is in control. And so that keeps him, I think, firmly slotted here instead of being higher up the list. But even at seven, we're with him until the end of the line. What do you think, Joe? Yeah, he's my mission. I'll tell you that much right now.

Same. You know how much I love Bucky Barnes. You know how much I love the Winter Soldier. You know how much I love that film. You know how much I love that musical cue when he shows up and the score is like, oh, what? You know, it's like, yeah, the Winter Soldier is here. Incredible design, incredible use of a character from an earlier film.

And then as he further ripples, obviously, in a tremendous way through the franchise. But yeah, it doesn't belong higher than this because he's not even, like the central villain of his own film, even though it's named for him. And so, you know, again, as we talk again, about dark mirrors, like, it's really important to, like, think of him as a cautionary tale of what might have happened to Cap if, you know,

he had been souped up and put into different hands, etc. So, yeah, we love Bucky, but we love him here. Perfect. All right. The Winter Soldier! Here at number seven, really more, obviously. You have six from here, right, Mel?

Okay, sorry, Clay. I have of my top six, because you've previously drafted Namor, so I only have five of my top six left. Oh, my God. Okay. Now, I did have a character rated lower who has not been selected yet, and that could be who you take here. But if it's not, then I have no idea. What's about to happen? All right.

The table's been set for the top six. Just checking in lots of diversity in terms of the sub-franchises here on the list. One thing that's sticking out to me, we do not have a phase one villain. I'm not including Bucky because he doesn't become a villain until Winter Soldier, obviously. So we don't have a phase one villain yet. We'll see if we have any of those in the top six. And really not that much phase two either. A lot of more recent villains here in the bottom half.

Joanna, you're up next with the pick at number six. I'm so sorry I cut you off though Is there anything you wanted to say about the hotness of Bucky Barnes before we continue Clay Keller? That I wanted to say. Yeah. I would say I agree.

10 out of 10 no notes. I'm not entirely sure what he's my mission means, but I don't want to compete with you. That sounds serious. I don't want to compete with you. Oh, that's from the film. Yeah. I don't really like that movie.

I'm in the minority. Winter Soldier of the Senate. Is that bad a made? I think it's overrated. I straight up don't like Civil War. I think Civil War sucks. Winter Soldier, I think, is overrated. Clay, you're going to have a bad time for the rest of this draft.

I know. But you know Joanna. Oh, no, Clay. My hot take is I still think First Avenger is the best MCU movie. So that's right. I like First Avenger a lot. Yeah, that's a fun take. To that extent.

I like that movie. You know, it's not coming anywhere near this list, but it's fun to hear. Red Skull, nowhere near the list. this list. You don't have a rascal at number one, Joe? No, no version. Got it. Uh, ready? I'm ready. I think so. I just made, I just made a last minute flip-flop. Not an addition, but just like a switch on where. Oh, boy. Based on what I think you came about. Like, I'm distracted. I'm just working hard right now getting my justice for Hugo weaving hashtag going. Okay. Okay. I can't tell if this is good radio that we're just like sitting here in the grips of

but yet our list has been like pretty copacetic and no venous in the point. It really does seem like you're kind of getting yourselves worked up. But look, who knows though? That's the big thing is who knows though? The stakes could not possibly be higher. Maybe it's like in Eternals and there's just a secret celestial baby nestling in the core of the planet we've built together waiting to break through the upper crust. How dare you spoil my number one pig?

Okay, here we go. I've got Joanna's pick at number six, and I am just confirming the first appearance of this character here. Okay, very good. Okay, here we go at number six. Hey, this is a first on this list. Well, it's a first. There's a couple of firsts.

We've got our first bureaucrat, villain here on the list. And our first back-to-back entry for a particular film. At number seven, we had the Winter Soldier from the Winter Soldier. At number six, Joanna has selected from Captain America the Winter Soldier, Robert Redford as Alexander Pierce.

Okay, Zamall and I talked about before we drafted, we talked about we're not doing Hydra, but we can do representatives of Hydra. And so Alexander Pierce here is not just standing in for Hydra, but I think, again, what's really interesting in a villain is if they can unmoor, Mallory was talking about this in terms of Bucky Barnes,

like really unmoor or force massive introspection from our hero. And so the fact that Steve Rogers has to think about everything he's done and worked for and risk for, as Alexander Pierce reveals to him, that Shield is Hydra in this film is what makes, Clay, my apologies to you, Captain America with Winter Soldier, the best MCU film of them all. I had Pierce a little higher,

but I was worried that he was the character that Mal had way lower, so I just wanted to make sure that he got in here. And also, there's not just the what he was, the, what he does to unmoor cap, but the personal connection he has with Nick Fury and then the casting of Robert, the meta-casting of Robert Redford in this sort of espionage, a spy thriller homage of a film given that Redford was, you know, the king of those in the 70s. And so, and then, you know, again, the caliber of performer, not that the, you know, this was before the MCU could have

their pick of literally anyone. But, you know, obviously there are phenomenal actors that come before. Robert Redford, he's not the first iconic actor to play a Marvel villain. But it was just a level of step up in caliber in terms of like, wow, Robert Redford did a Marvel movie. Okay. That I think we all felt around Winter Soldier. So that is why I want Alexander Pierce here, Mallory. Oh. Okay. So. I thought I had a conundrum before. I thought I was facing a conundrum with Namor. And that was just about placement.

I don't have Alexander Pierce on my top 15. So this was it. This was the twist. This was the real distinction. However, he is in the group of characters who I was completely at peace appearing in the top 15, even if he was on my personal list. I think for all the reasons that you just mentioned, Joe, all of those larger ripples and elements that he unlocks.

Could you have done it with our guy Arnhemzola? Maybe. Just for the comedy. I... Only if you do the impression. Jay's not here to do the impression, so I don't know. She were, yes. I could veto the pick because I don't have them on my list

and because I think a lot of the hydra-centric, deception and the challenging of what we think we know about the institutions and people who define our lives, you could funnel into the Bucky pick as part of this larger connected universe of deception. But my worry is that if I veto will end up with a pick that I had even further away. If you, like, so we're both staring down five people, right? There are five picks remaining. I mean, not included. This is the sixth pick.

So if you were, if I'm confident that this is the calculus. If I'm confident those five are the same, then I leave Pierce here. Yeah. But what if they're not the same? And then we've run out of room. I would be so surprised. Therein lies the rub of the format. Mallory, you've found yourself at a crossroads yet again here.

I'm going to leave him. Not on my 15 at all. Not at my 15 at all, but I like the logic. I think that it helps us unlock through the shield of it all. A really key aspect of Infinity Saga, MCU canon, the reckoning of staring down a truth that had defined your life and acknowledging that you need to look in a different direction. So I, I'm content.

I'm content. Let's keep Pierce. Also, Robert Redford. Great stuff. If you had to pick between Robert Redford and Kurt Russell for who gave the better, I'm in the MCU kind of quotes on the interview circuit around this movie, who would you pick? I mean, Kurt Russell's were just... Cur Russell's Marvel interviews will forever go down in my heart and in history for that one Washington Post quote he gave about how they didn't use any CGI to de-h him.

And it was just makeup and hair. And I was like, it wasn't, though. Anyway. I love it. Okay. I'm content. Do I wish we could flip the order of Pierce and Namor say? I do.

But you know what? Part of the lesson that Alexander Pierce taught Steve Rogers and thus us is that sometimes you have to make compromises to move forward. Indeed. There you go. Alexander Pierce here at number six. If the top life's not the same, I will be shattered and despondent. I don't know what I'll recover.

Yeah, I think the podcast is over. Yeah. I like to think of the pick of Alexander Pierce as sort of a pick for Senator Stern, as portrayed by Gary Shandling as well. Yes. He's going to slot him in there underneath Alexander Pierce. And before we move on to number five, I want to do some quick damage control. Eh, wink.

I want to clarify, I think Civil War is an awful, awful movie, the nadir of the MCU. I think Winter Soldier is very good, a little over. very good. I don't want any misconceptions out there. I think you thought you just dug yourself out of a hole, but I think you just dug yourself deeper to the hole. I will take all comers who ought to argue about Civil War. A 45-minute fight in an empty airfield that doesn't matter. Not compelling cinema. So was I. Cry right now. Not compelling cinema. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Five bigs remain. Three vetoes. Still out there. We'll we see any of these vetoes come into play? Who is to say, Mallory, you're up next. I mean, now we can be on you a little bit with the order. Yeah, yeah.

Mallory, you're up next with the pick at number five. Interesting. Okay, so at number five, Mallory has selected. We are now, this is the third. I think I'm learning some stuff about Mallory here today. This is the third visit to a particular site. sub-franchise. And interestingly, right before we got on recording, there was, on Twitter, a terrific actor was saying in an interview how they were originally

cast in this role. And then Marvel asked them to step aside when another actor decided they wanted to do it. At number five, Mallory has selected from Spider-Man Homecoming, Michael Keaton as Vulture. John Legerzamo saying he was originally cast in that and then Keaton wanted to do it. I mean, the Keaton casting is part of what makes it so brilliant and meta. It's just great. Mallory, you're a Spider-Man person. It's being revealed to me.

I love the MCU Spider-Man franchise. The Captain America franchise is my favorite, so I don't know that the selection of villains necessarily reflects the overall ranking of the franchises in my heart, but I do enjoy the Spidey films. the guy next door, your girlfriend's dad, is also your arch nemesis.

Being a superhero is hard, and so is being a teenager. The car ride to the school dance, of all the reasons I didn't want my daughter to date. The way that he says, Pete, once again, we have Avengers more broadly and Stark in particular resentment, fueling of villains' motives, damage control coming in, taken Tooms' team off the cleanup case. This detached heroes up in their towers versus the people down here living in the real-world aspect of his worldview, the way that he turns the alien tech into this weaponry, the innovation, the entrepreneurial spirit.

And crucially, that shred of goodness, there's, of course, the way that he rationalizes his villainy by saying he's doing all of it for his family, even when he has clearly lost sight of what that means or what the cost of his decisions might be. But he doesn't rat out Peter. He doesn't rat out Peter, Scorpion, at the very end, gives us that little glimmer of hope in our friendly neighborhood villain, vulture. Joe, I'm worried that you do. don't have him on your list and that this is where we part ways. I had him like much further down. This is what Steve warned me would happen during the break when I made the decision between,

it was between Wenwu and Tooms. And he's like, Mallory loves Tooms. And I was like, but we have two Spider-Man villains already on here. He's like, Mal loves to. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Great villain. But I just don't.

I mean, now I think I know which of my top five you don't have on here at all. And that breaks my heart. And so I'm trying to figure out if there's a way that I can fix this, but I don't know that there is because you have two vetoes and I have one. You could veto the pick and then I would have to pick one of my top four characters here, but then you would have to next select probably the character you were sure I didn't have it all because otherwise I would maybe actually run out of characters to pick or I would pick Vulture again, like at number one or something. But that's how we get Red Skull on the list. Red Skull at number one, because you all run out of picks. I'm Vitoing, too. Okay.

A veto. Her one and only veto from Joanna Robinson here of Vulture. Are you so proud of Biclay that I saved it for this high? Adrian Toos. I, yes, I am proud of you. This is growth here. But now, we'll see if Vulture reappears higher or if you have successfully forced vulture off of the list here.

Yeah, no. I mean, I did the only thing I could do. Okay, so I make another pick now. You make another pick. You send me another pick here at number five. It could turn out that this veto from Joanna was just a vote of protest. This is 100% of character Joe has on her top five without question. Definitely not on your top five, Clay, based on some of your comments.

Well, look, it's not my list. I'm just here to commission. Okay. I actually like this character. Okay. I don't have a problem with this character. I like this actor a lot. Okay, see what has happened here.

Okay. So Joanna is out of vetoes. Vitoed Vulture at number five. Mallory has provided a replacement pick at number five. Yes, as it's probably clear to everybody, Mallory has selected somebody from Captain America, Civil War. But like I said, I'm a big Daniel Bruel fan.

And I like old, old Baron Zemo. Zemo at number five is Mallory's. Much of this draft is encrypted, not easy to decipher. But I have experience and patience. And a drafter could do anything if she has those. What a wonderful performance in a really good performance. in a really, really good movie,

Clay. Looking at you, Clay. Fair. Helmut Zemo broke up the Avengers. Like, what more is there to say? And he did it with not just

horrors, the Bucky framing, the bombing, horrifically responsible for killing Tachaca. He did it by prying on the exact thing we have cited

as a source of so much joy for us, the connection between people, shared history. He had that tape of Bucky killing Tony's parents ready to fucking roll, and he did it while spitting bars. Poetry, an empire toppled by its enemies

can rise again, but one which crumbles from within, that's dead forever. Is that the fate that awaits us after we realize which picks we did not have in common? Maybe. Who can say it was certainly effective

against Captain America and Tony Stark? And also the Sukovia Accord plot, this question of control and accountability and whose hands are the safer ones and who gets to decide.

The Zemo aspect of this movie gives the Sukovia fallout a beating heart because of what happened to his family and how the loss of his family shaped his decisions from there, much more so and more effectively than anything that that fucker Thunderbolt Ross does in this movie. We can learn from Zemo, just as our heroes did. Think of the moment out in the cold when Tachala says to him, vengeance has consumed you. It's consuming them. I'm done letting it consume. me. And all of that is before we got to see him dance in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Mission report, drafted.

Joanna, you vetoed Vulture? I know you had Zemo high on your list. The replacement is Zemo. How do you feel about the outcome of your veto? No. Has anyone ever told you there's a bit of green and the blue of your eye? Of course I had Zemo up here. But Zima was the one that I was like, I had a crisis of faith. And I was worried that you.

Who is the... I know who it is. I mean, you didn't have Vulture. I didn't have Pierce. I mean, I know who it is. Because I know who the top three have to be. So, yeah, Zima. What I have in my brackets right next to Zima on my list is he wins in all caps, which like,

there's only really, I think, one other villain who can claim that. And so, and exactly what Mallory says, like the way in which he, and again, to Clay's point about Daniel, the power of Daniel Bruill, like, Zemo has very little screen time in this movie, actually. And the just quiet, calm, chilling, almost genial, you know, demeanor that he adopts through the whole thing. The way he orders his coffee and his bacon. Oh, my God. You know, the reading of the reading of the, the reading of the, the. the genial reading of the trigger words. You know what I mean?

Like all of this and the payoff of the movie-long voicemail, you know, part that we get. And as, you know, as Mallory said, there is just like it fixes a lot of what's wrong with Ultron. I don't know about fixes, but at least gives like meaning to what's wrong with Ultron, which Ultron came out right around the time as Batman v. Superman. So we were having these conversations about like these superheroes smashing entire cities and like no one ever paying attention to the consequences. And DC decided to handle that one way. And this is how Marvel decided to handle it. And also we should say I was really worried about Zemo because when he, when Civil War came out, you know, it's after Ultron.

It's after Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy. It's after Maliki the Dark Elf. This was like kind of in the thick of, does the MCU have a villain problem? And Zemo in the comics has like a freaking purple mask on the whole time. So I was like, are we going to get another, are we going to bury Daniel Brule under like another dumb mask?

Is that what we're going to get? And they were like, no, we're just going to let him brule it up. So yeah, Zemo. Great, glad he's here. So the question is, Clay. Do I ignore the spirit of the game and, like, just give the gift to Mallory of, like, drafting vulture here? Yes, because we know who the top three has to be. We can't jeopardize it.

We know who the top three has to be. We can't jeopardize it. Here's what I'm going to do, Mallory. I'm going to just, I'm going to draft my number five. And then I'll veto it and you pick Bolcher in, okay? Collaborative. Clay is appalled. I just want to talk about it.

Joanna, my answer to, should I ignore the spirit of the draft is, uh, always going to be no. No. But I don't, look, I don't, we don't mind a little bit of as long as we're not. Every villain's on an arc, Clay.

By the time we get to the end, there's, there's some horse trading that happens here and there. So I'm not, I'm not too concerned about this. I don't like to encourage collusion, but we'll see what happens here.

So yeah, there's four picks remaining, two per GM, two vetoes out there still, both belonging to Mallory. Joanna, And when you're ready with your picket number four, shoot it on over. Oh, yeah, that's right.

Send it to you. I'm going to, yeah, if you decide that this person does not belong anywhere on the top here, I'm not going to do something completely mental. That's my promise to you, Mallory. And be like, fine, I'll put Maliki the Dark Health. God, I forgot that this was this character's last name. Like, what a name. That's a great character name.

All right. Here we go. So at number five, the end result of the veto and all that was Zemo being there at number five. Here we go at number four with her second to last pick on the list. I said earlier we had not yet had a phase one villain. And Joanna decided to not only pick a phase one villain, but to go all the way back to the beginning. At number four, Joanna has selected.

from Ironman, Jeff Bridges as Obadiah Stain. All right, let's talk about Stain for a second before Mallory, who vetoes him off the list and into the ether. I love Obadiah Stain. I mean, I know you do. But like, the entire MCU doesn't happen if Iron Man doesn't work, right? And like when we talk about casting and I can't believe they got, etc., like, you know, we all have to remember where Robert Downey Jr. was in his career at this point.

he wasn't, he was on the skids. And so casting him was not like, oh, my God, I can't believe they got Robert J. Jr. They're like, okay, RDJ, let's see what you got. But Jeff Bridges, it was sort of like, wow, they got Bridges. Okay, that's interesting. We'll see, we'll see what happens here. And something that I love about Stain is this is sort of, it's a dark father storyline, right? This is a father figure for Tony.

And what I love, we're talking about like final fights and stuff like that. For Iron Man, there was originally who can punch the hardest fight, and they reshot the ending, basically using digital effects, so that the ending is Tony Stark remembers the icing over issue with the suit and flies up to cause a suit malfunctions. And that is Tony leaning into our egotistical cocky Tony leaning into a flaw. That is something that I love about the way in which that final confrontation plays out. Again, if Stain doesn't work, the whole MCU doesn't work because what came after this was Hulk.

And if it had been like Iron Man fails, Hulk fails, the whole MCU doesn't happen. So I always like do honor Iron Man in its place in history. I didn't have Obadiah Steyer at four, but I did have him like up. He was in my like top. So, yeah. I considered him putting him around like 15. my list. I really do genuinely agree with and respect the logic. When during the binge Marvel run, we had like a debate about a winner for each movie. And I, my pick for the first Ironman was not Tony.

It was Yinson for like much the same reason. If Yinson doesn't have that impact on Tony, then Tony doesn't become Iron Man. We don't have the MCU. And I got fucking dusted in that pole. Dusted. Oh, no. I really do. like, I really like the stain performance. It's so fun. I love to quote his lines from that movie. But I just can't, I can't sleep tonight if I let him stay here instead of Vulture. I wish I had anticipated this.

If I had vetoed Pierce, would you have gone to Ironmonger there? I don't know. Let's not dwell in the past. Let's not live in the past. Where did that get anyone inside? They're not doing the past. Mallory, am I? I have to veto it. I'm sorry.

I have to. All right. With love and respect for Obadiastain. I have to. A veto from Mallory, one of her two. So she does still have one. I do have one. At her disposal.

Maybe I'll use it really recklessly. We'll see. Voting Obadiastain. Now, Joanna, you saw this coming. You anticipated Obadiastain being vetoed. And you said to Mallory, if you veto this, I will play. Vulture. Now, but you don't have to.

You, you're not bound to this in any way. I do not have your pick delivered yet. But you are tasked now with providing me a replacement at the number four spot. If you want to pick the character who should definitely be at three

at four, and live with that forever. No, you can. I would, the only reason I vetoed Volture in the first place, because I was, I panicked at the last minute and was like, what if Zimo isn't in her top five?

It was very important to me that Zemo be up here. And I was like, I was willing to let Obadiah go for Vulture. Like, that was the calculus I made. So, Vultures, Vulture was on my list,

but in the middle. But a very human, I mean, I'll send this. Oh, I was going to say, Joanna, this is, you're talking, but this hasn't, this hasn't a pick yet.

Sorry, I forgot the process. You know, I like to, you know, we have a system here. that we need to have things validated. Okay, so at number four, so silly, at number four, Joanna played Obadiah Stain,

the very first MCU villain, stricken from the list by a veto from Mallory, replacing it. I received Joanna's pick, at number four, she has selected, vulture. I really don't have a lot to say that we haven't, like, Mallory articulated beautifully. The drive to dance is one of the scariest

things that's ever happened in a Marvel movie, I think. Just again, that's the tension, the smiling menace. And then again, just yes, anding a lot of what we said about Mysterio in terms of tombs represents the fallout of Tony Stark's actions and the way in which Peter has to deal with that. Yeah, and then the metacasting of Michael Keaton. So yeah, Vulture's, Fultures is way too high on this list, but it's fine. I mean, even I think Vulture's a little... on this list. I actually had, I actually had Vulture at 6 on my personal ranking.

Yeah. But due to Namoor having already been picked, I put him at 5. Yeah. And now he's a 4. But, you know, he's got wings. He soars. Good for him.

I mean, if someone just looks at this list, they're going to be like, why is Alexander Pierce at number 6 and Vulture number 4? But listen, we have our reasons. So. We've got our reasons. Okay. Now, this is the real question because I have, I think, like you, complete faith, we have the same top three. Yeah. What if they're not in the same order, though? I think they will be. I'm feeling really good now, but you have that one veto, Mallory.

Both sides of the virtual draft table. I don't want to let you down here with, if I pick someone or three, who you think should be higher. I am, I'm a little concerned here. I'm on. Here's what I'll say. I think we both really firmly agree on number one. And I'm actually, like, slightly agnostic about. where two and three go. Interesting. Okay. Here we go. All right. Both sides of the draft table predicting a totally copacetic top three to cap off a largely copacetic entire list here.

Maybe some question about the order, but. I don't know. We're about to find out. We will find out. Okay. Here we go. At number three. So this is Mallory's second time.

to last pick here on the list. And as she has done, oh, no, no, no. She did not do this one previously. Okay, so, Mallory, for the first time, picking a villain from this particular sub-franchise that has appeared previously on the list. And perhaps the shining example, the pinnacle of the MCU trope.

I use that word as a positive, one of the very interesting MCU tropes that Joanna was talking about, the villain who is maybe right, actually. And I have to assume Joanna and Mallory, also the pinnacle of the positive MCU trope that you both enjoy, the villain being very, very hot.

At number three, Mallory has selected from Black Panther, Michael B. Jordan, as killmonger. What if Clay's Billip had been to Thanos? Thanos. I love that wrinkly scrotum chin on Thanos. Eric Stevens, Killmonger. Is this your pick? This is my pick.

This is my pick at 3. The villain who has a point as Clay just teased. This is the single, the best single movie performance, or in the running for best single movie performance for an antagonist in the entire MC. Is it as a single movie now that he's appeared in Duke? I'm glad you asked, because that's part of what has been so exciting in this past stretch in phase four. We thought it was going to be a single movie, and we've gotten to spend more time with Kilmonger in What If?

Lots of Kilmonger action in What If? And then, of course, one of the thrilling scenes in Wakanda Forever, Eric and Shuri. I wish she'd been in the whole movie. He should have been torturing her in her mind from the beginning. The number of different ways is certainly now that we are in the multiversal phase of the MCU, that Michael B. Jordan can still be in the MCU. That Kilmonger can still be in the MCU, one of the genuine and true delights of where we currently are in our shared Marvel journey.

Eric's story in Black Panther is such a deeply personal, the scenes with Jobu, his father, back in Oakland in the ancestral plane, just so heart-wrenching, the way that he challenges to Chala, everything that he is striving for and the larger case that he makes about using Wakanda's resources

to lift up black people across the world and the skill and smarts and style, and conviction that he brings to the film. Wonderful. Just one of the real true thrills of the first three phases of the MCU. Is this where you had Kilmonger, Joe? Of course, it's precisely where I had Kilmonger.

Absolutely. All right. There's no. Clay's like, don't make one game boring, guys. Anyway, yeah. Kilmonger, number three. 10 out 10 no notes on Kilmonger's performance or Mallory's placement,

the Fit Lord himself, an Oakland son, Eric. Yeah, I don't know. I have nothing to add to everything that Mallory said. Well, I guess I will say this. In addition to a villain who has right ideas, wrong methods, there's this idea of the villain who thinks he's the hero. That is, you know, also something that...

The most compelling villains always do. We might talk about in a second, but yeah, Killmonger. What an incredible. And, you know, Mallory is constantly like, character deaths don't mean anything to me in the MCU bring them all back. And I'm like, keep Tony Stark dead. But we are in complete agreement about Kilmonger. Like, I love that when Kilmonger died.

That's not what I think. I just think that stakes can come in other forms as well, other than just life of death. I do think that it's important to not just resurrect every single character constantly. But Tony Stark for sure. But everyone at the end of Black Panther was like, that was a phenomenal, amazing movie. Why did they have to kill Eric off? We would like more of him. And so, yeah, glory would be to the multiverse for potentially giving us more.

Eric, okay, I am sending you my number two pick, Chris. Without question, we have the same top two. Are they in the same order? Of course they are. All right. We're down to the top two. This is Joanna's final pick on the list. And yeah, we'll see.

We'll see if all of these bold predictions of total copaceticness, copacosity here in the top two hold true. at number two with her final pick on the list Joanna has selected the granddaddy of them all big old I believe Mallory said Purple Scrotum chin himself you gotta have him on here it's Thanos

Thanos at number two as portrayed by oh now I'm blanking on his name what's his name Josh Brolin I was getting Joshua I was like that's not right he's not a Joshua Josh Brolin here as Thanos. So a lot of people would have this at number one, but that's not how the Ring reverse rolls,

and Mallory will eloquently explain why we have number one at number one. I'm so happy right now. But we're in a completely agreement about the top three and their order. In fact, I think we would have had the same number four if I had kept the faith. But Thanos, I mean, what can you say about Thanos? Again, like Zemo, I mean, he wins. doesn't win in the end end game, but he wins in a very significant way. And I think there's a couple things.

The world weariness, the kind of sad reluctance, but also complete determination that what he's doing is right is so interesting. Thanos was something that a lot of us were really kind of, I don't know, if dread is the word, but worried about because the way his design worked, especially when he first shows up And then even in Guardians, they hadn't perfected the design. They had not even yet invented the technology they eventually used to track Brolin's face on this performance. And so basically they invented brand new technology in order to capture very nuanced, small, quiet performance from Josh Brolin. One of my favorite interviews I ever did was 4VF with the visual effects head on this film.

And he was talking about how Brolin's original plan. was to play Thanos as this big, huge, mustache twirling, like, bombastic villain. But they had him do some tests with the motion capture technology, and they captured him just sort of like muttering and sort of like practicing his lines in between some of his takes. And they showed him that. And they're like, you can do it that small. And we still capture you versus, like, previous mocap performances, like, Andy Circus, God love him,

but has to go big with everything in order for the performance to come through the digital effect. The digital effect on Thanos allows for Brolin to do a really subtle thing with a huge, massively overpowered character. And it's not a ring reverse anything without a good old-fashioned smuggle. So I've just decided to tuck my favorite henchmen of all time, Emmidy Ma, right in here under the protected wing of Thanos. Love Ebony Ma. destroyed by a pop culture reference, shameful. Love of B-ma. He is the 2B of my pickier of Thanos.

I want to say something, which is that I am full of such love for you right now, knowing that we have the same number one, that it actually had having a genuine and sincere emotional response. I really thought I might have to make the case for Thanos at two. I shouldn't have ever doubted. This is just, this is a great feeling. The pick, Thanos, being in the top two, that was inevitable.

But which order? Who could say, Joe? They say that the hardest choices require the strongest wills. That's what was needed for us to put him to exactly where he belongs. Because the number one, we just get right to it. You got to send it, Mallory. You got to send it to him. I am.

But Clay, do you know who it is before she sends it? I'm a pretty savvy listener. I think I had a general idea of a... Okay. Of what's... I had it written down before she sent it, yes. Okay.

Wasting no time here. Okay. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, Judd, I didn't know that anecdote about the motion capture technology with Brolin, and that's fascinating. Because as a casual, as a non-comic book reader, kind of casual film MCU observer,

when they first introduced Thanos, I was very confused. I was like, this is who they're putting all their chips down on is the purple guy? And by the end, yeah, he's... terrific performance there in those final films. Anyone gone to Infinity Cones lately?

Are you drinking your morning coffee and your Thanos was right, mug? No, I really I really should. Although, Joanna, you know this. When my screen drafts co-host and I Ryan Marker went to Disneyland, him for the first time,

I brought him into that warehouse. I don't know if you've been to Disneyland recently, but they have a, essentially an empty gigantic warehouse that's just full of Marvel merchandise. I've never seen someone's eyes light up brighter. He disappeared and returned 15 minutes later with a Thanos gauntlet,

Infinity Gauntlet mug. He had a, like a Schwarmma T-shirt. He was just, oh my God, he was like a pig and shit. Okay. The impact of Thanos, not just the merch, but the measuring stick that we have all spent the last couple years measuring every subsequent MCU installment against.

They pulled it off. That's the true impact. Yeah, it's wild. Love Thanos. All right. Well, there you go. Look, I've got the pick for Mallory at number one. It seems like this has been a totally copacetic draft.

That is the magic of screen drafts. It can either be a conduit to despair and controversy and anger and friendships, relationships, partnerships, being torn asunder. Or, you know, it can be the fire that forges an even stronger. Bond, and it seems like maybe the latter was the case today. This is the list. I've got the whole dang thing now. This is the Ringerverse MCU Villains mini-Megadraft with Joanna Robinson and Mallory

Rubin. Number 15, Gore the God Butcher. Number 14, Ultron. Number 13, Green Goblin. Number 12, ego. Number 11, Mysterio. Number 10, Namor. Number nine, Hella.

Number eight, Wenwu. Number seven, the Winter Soldier. Number six, Alexander Pierce. Number five, Zemo. Number four, Vulture. Number three, killmonger. Number two, Thanos. The number one,

MCU feature film villain Loki. I am Mallory of Ringerverse. And I am burdened with glorious purpose as I make this pick. Who else could it be the true and genuine and actual through line of our shared MCU experience. I mean, we could talk about the fact that he is literally the reason

the adventures assembled in the first place, but I think we'd rather talk about how he embodies every single core tenant and theme and through line pattern that we have discussed today. You're wondering, listening, why we are saying that a character who is now a hero

is our number one villain, well, isn't that interesting? In addition to being the most magnetic and charismatic villain. Back in Thor, back in the Avengers, in addition to continuing to

dupe his brother time and again in the dark world. And he began to embrace the possibility of partnership, unity, teamwork. No one is more delighted

than Loki to see Loki do the heroic thing in Ragnarok. His death, great example of how we said goodbye in Infinity War, and he's back in our lives, and we friends are the richer for it. We're obviously mostly talking about the movies, but as Jodos, as many of the folks listening today know, Loki, one of the television programs and just MCU installment,

period, and the ringer verse crew enjoyed the most. The way that he looked inward, that introspection, the honesty that has surfaced about who Loki is, about how he sees himself, about what he wanted. And from the other people in his life, the love and regret around Frigga, the resentment and desire and desperation, really, for praise with Odin, the nature of that bond. complex though it is with Thor how do our heroes affect our villains how do our villains affect our heroes

there's that idea again when Thor says Loki I thought the world of you in that elevator and Ragnarok we are shattered because we have spent that much time understanding every single thing that has passed between them and that we have gotten to bear witness to that has led us to that moment

he's funny he's sexy, he's weird, he's cool, he's a trickster, he's got that acid-dipped tongue generating some of the most savage vicerations in the history of the MCU. He is a deeply flawed, deeply flawed character, but one who has in time come to embrace the idea of self-betterment, he would tell you that he wants to be the god king, but what he really wants to be is the god king of his own family's heart. just to be loved and appreciated and told that he did something right and well. Not that he's there to bring out other people's feats,

but that he is capable of something true and good on his own. He has told us that satisfaction isn't in his nature, but thanks to this selection, it can be an hour's. Round of applause, delighted to find Loki at the top of this list. I'm thrilled. I think a couple of things you hit on are so key. Number one, this idea that like Loki, even though he comes with sort of this idea of world domination and Avengers, we know from his introduction in Thor that it's like the approval of his father that he's really after here.

And so that at the heart of it, the way in which the casting of Tom Hiddleston, a Shakespearean actor in Marvel's most Shakespearean, installment, which is the first Thor film. But to carry those, you know, big, grandiose, tragic themes throughout the entire MCU and into the Disney Plus era provides a spine for the whole thing that goes beyond Thanos. Again, we've talked about this with Hella, but that dark mirror idea of, like, what does Loki show Thor about himself? what does Loki show Thor about his family and things that he understood?

A dynamic I really love, which is an really introspective villain and a not introspective hero. And that introspective villain forcing introspection on like party god Thor is a really great dynamic. And then the fact that when Loki happened, I was curious, who is Loki outside of the Thor relationship, right? That this has been such a foundational part of this character. I didn't doubt Tom Hiddleston's charisma.

I didn't doubt that I'd be interested in watching Loki do whatever, but, like, that is so core. How do we tell a story without Hemsworth at all? I mean, Frog Thor is there, but Thor isn't there. And there was just so much rich, like, so much rich text to mine. New relationships immediately forged that felt as complicated and as dense. Loki. I'm overjoyed.

I mean, the only mark against Loki is some of the wigs that he had to wear in like the first two movies. It is a tough one for a wig watch with Joanna Robinson. Yeah. But again, we grow and involve. By the dark world. They had figured it out.

Yeah, yeah. And we have figured out the list. The single definitive best up list, at least until quantum. Mania hits theaters here of the MCU villains. Round of applause, Joanna, Mallory. Well done. And to you, Clay.

Thank you so much for coming and hosting this. Oh, my God, of course. What's fun. Anytime you all want to draft some characters or something here on your show. Look, Mallory, I'm certainly not going to capitulate to your demands for some kind of a mulligan or other game-breaking new rule. you do have we'll call it a roll over veto

so we'll see either go ahead and stick that in your pocket and we'll see the the next time you and I cross paths on a draft maybe you'll be able to pull that Joanna's looking to be like no you fucking don't I love it

like a package of cabooie No that wouldn't be fair that wouldn't be fair if we do okay like I mean we can say Mallory and I intend to do another screen draft, perhaps in your home base. And I do not believe that vetoes should carry over between podcasts. No, you're right. You're right.

You're right. Oh, yes. Of course. No, yes, Joanna, you are a frequent beloved guest GM on screen drafts. Very excited for you to bring along Mallory for her first time later in the summer. And my variant veto that I'll be bringing with me. A good topic. A topic, Joanne and Mallory, that people have been clamoring for,

and I think are going to make a lot of people jealous that they are not at that table for this topic that the two of you're doing later in the summer. But, you know, thank you for inviting me to do this. This was an absolute blast and an honor. So what fun. This was, I love, I love a copacetic draft and walking away from the table with a skipping your step.

I don't want controversy. I don't need controversy. Do we have any, do we want to do any, I don't have any rejects. You've heard all of my. We can do discards if you want to. Matt, who we usually do at the end is talk about a couple of discards that didn't make the list.

Do you have any? I mean, none that I feel like wounded to not have featured or even frankly surprised didn't make the cut. You know, I had a few extra characters just in case. Was I prepared to make an argument in favor of Justin Hammer, you'll never know. But I leave that question just there lingering in the ether. I will note the one character I was really genuinely unsure about

because I know that there's a lot of shared investment in an affection for this character overall, but also that the villain aspect specifically is a real complex fraught arena. I wasn't sure if Wanda would make an appearance today, Joe, or maybe if so, where. That was the biggest question mark for me heading in. Her villainous performance in multiverse of madness is so delicious. She's so good. I just have, Malin knows that I have a lot of issues with that, the way that that was written. If they had just kept it to like, if we could call Wanda a villain in WandaVision and if she counted because she's been in MCU movies, I would have drafted her.

A villain initially in Ultron, part of the Ultron. I thought about it. So that was the one character who was on my initial list who didn't make it. But again, I knew it would be a difficult one. We only have one woman on this list, but that is Marvel's fault not ours is how I feel about that. Yes. Do you have a prediction based on literally nothing? Because as you've said, we haven't seen the movie.

So I don't know why I'm asking this. But like, where do you think King would have been if we've done this after the movie? Like, where do you think King is going to rank immediately after Quantumania? Are we top tier territory instantly? Are we somewhere in the middle? Talk to instantly. That's my hope. I think based on our response to the Loki finale,

I think that if we had drafted this the way we should have, which would have been Loki, Thanos, Kilmonger, Zemo, I would put Kang right below Zemo, right? And above Vulture is where I would put King. And maybe above Zemo, we'll see. But it's hard to top Zemo. I'm so glad to discover we like Zemos so much together. That makes you really happy.

Oh, Zemo. great stuff. What fun this was. Clay, thank you for blessing us with your, with your brilliant format and guiding us through this journey of what turned out to be just shared love and joy and partnership and bliss. They should have known. The greatest twist of all that we made it to the end without any major contention. Well, I love it. Well, yeah, thank you guys. Thank you so much. Let this be a lesson for the heroes in the MCU as they try to tackle their next threat. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. Just say, if you enjoyed this, check out screen drafts. We just wrapped up a three-part,

Stephen Spielberg, complete ranking with a bunch of great guests. So check that out. It was a lot of fun. And keep an eye out for Joanna and Mallory. Coming up in a couple months. I love it. All right.

Check out everything Clay and Co. We're doing over at Screen Drafts. Stay tuned for that future crossover event. And thank you to everyone for listening today. Hela just told us that we are in her seat. So we have to wrap. That's it. That's a wrap on today's podcast.

Thank you to Steve Allman for producing this episode and assuring us via Zoom chat as he isn't in fact still present on the Zoom currently. Thank you to Arjuna Ram Gapal for his additional production work on this episode. And thank you to Jomea Denneron for his work on the social for this episode. And one more time. Thank you, Clay.

Thank you for guest commissioning. here on House of R and gifting us with the screen drafts magic today. Remember everyone, pop over to the prestige TV feed on Monday for our next deep dive into the last of us on episode five, then pop back over for our House of Our Ant Man deep dive on Monday, February 20th, Mando Season 3 preview on Friday, February 24th. Mid Edition will be with you this coming Monday for Super Bowl trailer talk, and the Midnight Boys will be with you this coming Friday for their Ant Man instant reaction. Until then, remember, House of R is inevitable.

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