House of R - The Most Essential 'The Lord of the Rings' Moments to Revisit Before 'Rings of Power,' With Bryan Cogman!

Episode Date: August 27, 2022

Mal and Joanna are joined by ‘Rings of Power’ consulting producer, Bryan Cogman, to talk about the new show and all things ‘Lord of the Rings.’ They start by talking about how they each fell in love with ‘Lord of the Rings’ and the impact it has had on the fantasy genre (13:32). Later, they discuss their top three most essential ‘Lord of the Rings’ moments to revisit before ‘Rings of Power’ (1:07:06). Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Bison Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in Georgia R. Martins, a song of ice and fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at Trialby Content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the Trial by Content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required. Tramphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease. and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tramphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit Trimfairadio.com. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping.

Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. One thing we can do better than any creature

in all middle earth we stay true to each other with our hearts even bigger in our feet Welcome back into the Ringerverse your Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today

now that she's finished pledging me her axe her bow and her sword on various podcasts this week it's Mallory Rubin Hi Mallory How you doing? Joe, I'm hyped.

I'm excited. I'm like shaking a little bit right now. I'm so excited for today's spot. I can't wait. All right. We're here to talk about the Amazon series, The Rings of Power, Lord of the Rings, calling The Rings of Power,

the much anticipated, long-awaited, very costly show from Amazon. That debuts next week. So obviously we're not going to be talking about the show itself. No spoilers here for that. that. But we, just like we have with Obi-Wan, with House of the Dragon, we wanted to sort of warm you up, get you ready, get you excited. We have a very special guest here today. One of my all-time favorite people, bar none, let alone favorite writers. He worked on the show a little bit at the

beginning. Yeah, it's true. It's Brian Cogman. Hi, Brian. I'm sorry. I just, did I, I butted into your intro of me by awing. Oh, I was, yeah, I was going to give you more superlatives, but you, yeah, you were going to give you more superlatives. That's so typical of me. No, I can. That's fine. Brian Cogman, and he knows this, but I'll just say it for the record, wrote two of my all-time favorite Game of Thrones episodes, among many others, but Kissed by Fire and a Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Nine of Seven Kingdoms, maybe the Thrones episode I rewatched the most.

And he worked on rings of power. Yeah. Aw. It's true. And he worked on rings of power at the very beginning, like right at the beginning, getting things ready. So here, let's just like right off the jump before we get into anything else. Sort of set the parameters for what Brian is here to do today with us. Brian is here to get you excited, get you into thinking about Tolkien and the impact of

Lord of the Rings and all that sort of stuff. He's not here to talk specifically about the show. First of all, again, we don't want to spoil any of it for you who haven't seen it. And secondly, he didn't work on it the whole way through. And so there's a lot he can't say because of contracts. There's a lot he can't say because he wasn't there. So we're just not going to make him say any of it at all. It would be irresponsible and inappropriate for me to do so. We are only ever appropriate on House of Our. Marley Rubin John Robinson

Do you have any superlatives you want to fling in Brian Cogman's direction? I could just repeat everything you just said I feel exactly the same way it's a dream of mine to pod with Brian

as he knows and this is a real thrill for me he is one of the most central people in the last decade of my life Oh my God probably right if we're being honest

and it is it is really a thrill to join with both of you today to talk about one of the stories that we share a great love for with somebody, Brian, who is so elemental and crafting, another story that we love so dearly. This is a real treat. Well, that's, that's, that's a lovely, wow. What a lovely, what a lovely thing to dear. I should do more of these early in the morning, the end of the long work week.

This is great. Let me hit you before we start with a few program reminders. And hold off in your emails. I know I forgot to say House of Our Working Title in the intro. That's because Friday morning and I just went a little fast. But anyway, know that House of Our Working Title is in my heart and so... Working Title. All right.

So, Program Reminders. Oh, wait. The title of your show is House of Our Working Title? It's House of Our. House of Our parenthetical working title. Yeah. We've hung on to the working title, even though it's a deeply entrenched permanent, formally logoed

title at this point. What's wrong with it? It sounds fine. Robinson, Rubin, Ringer, Ringer. Yeah. It all fits. This is your catch-all. This is your catch-all podcast.

This is the one where you can talk about kind of whatever you want to talk about. You're not bound to a certain show or recap in the House of R. It's sort of a general emporium of genredom. Anything in the number. is eligible for discussion.

An Emporium of Generdom. Yes. I love that for us. Let's put that on the verge. Yeah. Emporium of genredom. All right. So we are,

we have a lot going on in this feed, by the way, in the ringer verse. Sunday, Mallory and Chris Ryan and I will be back for Talk the Thrones to talk about, you know, House the Dragon.

Have you ever heard of it? Hot Dene. Mallory and I will be here on Tuesday to talk to do a deep dive on episode Two of House of the Dragon, the Midnight Boys, peep-boo, we're back on Wednesday. I actually don't know what they're doing. Do you know what they're doing on Wednesday?

We'll find out. We'll find out. What a fun place. And then already in your feed, and I highly recommend, my pal and yours, Ben Lindberg and Kyle broke down She-Hulk episode two, a really fun episode. So there's a lot going on. Content wars have begun.

And we're here to cover it all. That's right. coming out of the pandemic. It's all here. Contemageddon is upon us. You can reach us, Mallory and myself, at the email, Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. And Brian, I know that they're not hobbits,

they're hardfuts, but just let me have this. Anytime we can reference, it's just tits and dragons, we do. So hobbits and dragons, there are. Hobbits and dragons. All right. Oh. Spoiler warning. Yeah.

As we already mentioned, we're not here to talk about the rings of power episodes that you haven't seen. They're going to drop next week. But, Maui, what is on the table today? Anything that is a part of the established canon. Anything that you've seen in a prior movie or read in a prior tone. What, do you have, like, a legal document in front of you? You have like a legal document?

We're circulating the PDFs shortly. My God. Everyone's so scared. It's all good. Fire up your dokey sign and get ready to agree. I don't fucking work for Amazon anymore. They can't do anything to me. By the way, Joe, as you've noted many times, and we will note again, we are not

going to say anything specific from the premiere of Rings of Power, which is all that I have seen so far. I will say that I thought it was sublime. Lime, sensational, absolutely amazing. And I cannot wait to talk about this show every week with you. We're both really big fans of what we've seen. I am too. I'm delighted with it.

I, you know, I was, I mean, just so we can clarify, I'm a consulting producer on season one of the show, which just means I was part of the initial kind of writer's brain trust for the first 20 weeks, very first 20 weeks. four years ago, which is insane to think about, just how long these things take. I mean, the little global pandemic helped delay it, I think, more than perhaps initially planned. But, you know, it's been such a long time since I worked on it. And, you know, I had no idea what I was going to see when it was finally unfurled before me at the premiere here in Los Angeles. and I was just overwhelmed with joy and happiness that J.D. and Patrick and the team made the show that when I left, we were talking about.

You know, they did. They did it. Which, you know, that's hard to do with anything. It's certainly hard to do with something this massive and with this much pressure and so many moving parts and so many ambitious goals that we all. set for it. So I just can't say enough about it. I mean, I've been going insane cheerleading about it. Because again, I'm not involved in the show technically anymore and nor am I employed by Amazon anymore. So if I hadn't seen it, if I hadn't liked it, you wouldn't be hearing much from me. But I love it. I really, really love it. And I want everyone to watch it because it's really great. I feel like if Brian hadn't liked the premiere, he would have, I would have asked him to be on this podcast and he would have been like, no, thank you. I would say, no, thank you.

I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have said anything negative because I'm, you know, I'm very fond of everyone involved and that wouldn't have changed. But, uh, um, I wouldn't be like the effusive rings of power, you know, GIF machine that I am now on Twitter. Um, I can't, I can't get enough of it. No, it's maybe, I'm, I'm like reading the books again and looking at the, rewatching the movies again. I'm on a total rings kick. I can't stop listening to, to the music.

I'm just, uh, you know, I'm the, I'm the, I'm the number one fan. It's actually the perfect way to work on a show. I have some connection to it, and I think played a significant part in its genesis. But then I got to fuck off and not have to go through the misery of making it. So I was like, I was the happiest person at that premiere. I was bouncing in my seat. Like, this is great, you guys.

Everyone else is looking exhausted and like shell-shocked. Like, wow, that's all. We did it, gang, you know. They're like in the middle of their marathon press tour. they have nine more premieres to go to and Brian's like, wins the party. The next day they were going to Mumbai. They were going to,

like half of them were going to Mumbai and the other half we're going to Mexico City and, you know, Game of Thrones got a CAA screening. That's what we got for our first season and our second season. God damn it. We didn't get a premiere until season three. Some bullshit. But anyway,

because I don't work for HBO either anymore. So fuck them too. No, I love all of my friends. Oh, yeah. I love all my friends at HBO and Amazon. I love them all. Brian Cogman. Hot on the mic on a Friday morning.

All right. So we're going to pull the lens back a little bit and talk. We're going to like pull the lens back a little bit and talk more broadly about our relationship with Tolkien. If you want like a more specific breakdown of like who all the characters are and when this all takes place, Mallory and I did a trailer episode July 15th is when it dropped. So you can zoom back into the feed and we like went through all the characters, went through all the locations. really establish where we are in the world. So if that's the nature of a prep that you want,

you can go listen to that. This is mostly vibes. Mostly Tolkien vibes. It's about vibes is whatever. I should go back and listen to that episode because I don't remember a fucking thing. Oh, God. So we're going to have a broad discussion. And then we're going to do what Mallory and I, like a new tradition,

relatively newest tradition for Mallory and your Australian. And Brian's going to stick around for this, which is to be. pick a few and we decided on three, like three rings for Elvin Kings out of this guy. Three moments, quote, scenes, whatever from either the books or the Jackson films or Rankin Bats if you prefer. Or Brian asked me if he can cite the Lord of the Rings musical. And I said, sure, buddy. I don't think he will, but he could.

Oh, won't I? Something from the deep Tolkien bench that we feel like sets the vibe. for rings of power. That, that, and, like, Mallory and I are doing it a little bit leaning towards plot. Brian is leaning a little bit towards more, like, why Tolkien matters to him. Just so, you know, again. Yeah, yeah. I don't want any of my choices to be interpreted as, um, spoilers for, more of the show.

Or a hint. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll go into, I'll go into, you know, deeper reasoning for the three. But, uh, but under no circumstances should you assume, but anything I choose. is any kind of indicator of the story of the show. Perfect. Amazon just sent me a thank you for that.

Amazon attorneys. All right. So, Brian, let's start with you. Talk to me about your relationship to J.R. Tolkien. I love a J.R.R. Tolkien. And what it's meant to you. Well, you know, I was trying to think back on what my first exposure to Tolkien and his world was, and I suspect it was

stumbling upon a Saturday afternoon television airing of the Rankin' Bass Return of the King film, which is a very interesting movie. And I think I even came halfway through, so I was very lost, but immediately drawn in. I mean, it was, I think it was halfway through because it was, it was, I

feel like I turned on the TV and Frodo was about to lose his finger. I mean, it was, it was practically the end of it. But I remember being sort of riveted and fascinated by how dark it was and, and how, um, it kind of evocative that, that Rankin Bass, Proto Studio Ghibli, and I think I pronounced that wrong, um, animation was. And so it was something that sort of stuck in my mind for years. And, uh, I, but I actually didn't, didn't read it properly. until I was in college, and they announced the movies. I, of course, heard of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and all of it, but I hadn't sat down and read it. And they announced the movies, and it was a big deal.

A few of my classmates were kind of buzzing about it and talking about how interesting it was that Peter Jackson, you know, the director of the frighteners and this sort of horror director was going to be the one to do it. And there was some debate with some of my classmates about, you know, whether or not he was the right fit and some of the casting was being announced. and all this debate was going on. And I thought to myself, well, I should read these before the movies become my only kind of, you know, visual for them. And actually, this is my copy that was given to me at the time by my classmate. You might know him as Thrandwell in the Hobbit movies. This is, this is Lee Pace's copy of Lord of the Rings that I've yet to give back to him.

And I don't think, I don't think I'm going to give it back to him because I feel. I feel like he's got plenty of access to Lord of the Rings swag should he want it. Holy shit. So I'm keeping it, Lee. Sorry. I don't know if you remember giving that to me. But that's my well-worn copy of Lord of the Rings given to me. It says right there, soon to be an epic motion picture trilogy coming from New Line Cinema.

I have the same additions, but I have a few editions, but I have the same editions, but mine are the broken out. Like, it's the same cover, but I have, like, them in three books rather than one big book. So I think it's like, by the... Yes. And there's a nice edition of the... Actually, I really love these editions. There's a... They did the whole legendarium in these really lovely editions.

All on the shelf, they look like kind of a piece. Mutant rainbow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They're very nice. So, yes, Lee gave me that. Actually, I went to Juilliard with two Elven Kings because Ben Walker and I were there at the same time as well, who plays Gilgalad or Gilgalad.

I never know how to pronounce that name. So, yeah, I have two Elvin Kings in my, from my college years. So, yeah, that's when I started reading it. And I, of course, loved it and immediately read The Hobbit and just devoured it, read some of the Silmarillion. And, of course, you know, fell in love with the movies and dipped back into it here and there. but never was a in any way, shape, or form a Tolkien expert. I would even say I was only a slight enthusiast just as much as, you know, I knew the stories,

but I never did the sort of deep, deep, deep, deep dive. And so I, I, when, when the opportunity came to to work on rings of power, as it's known now, that was probably the deepest dive I ever took in terms of, you know, the appendices and all of the sort of Ticherry stuff. And, of course, fell right back in love with it. And maybe even a deeper way because Jady and Patrick were very, it was very important to them that we all absorbed not just the stories, but sort of the, the philosophy and the thematic kind of resonance of the stories. And it was very important to them that that informed all aspects of the storytelling, which A, made me confident that they were the right people for it and that I would want to participate.

And B, just made the experience. So kind of, I don't know, life-affirming and wonderful. When you really live in this world, it quite simply, for all of its violence and all of its intensity and all of its melancholy aspects, it still ultimately makes you feel good and hopeful and kind of optimistic about the world. And certainly in this day and age, that's necessary. And I think it's why this show will really have an impact when it premieres in a couple weeks. I'll absolutely love that. It's absolutely beautiful. Mali Rubin, can you top a paperback from Lee Pace?

Where are you on your relationship to Tolkien? No, I mean, Joe, as you know, Lee Pace might be one of the only things in the world. I love more than Lord of the Rings. So that was a lot. Oh, sorry, I should have warned you. I should have given you. Should have given you some warning there. Overwhelming.

Brace for impact. Yeah. Yeah, he has some fun Hobbit swag at his house, as I recall. Incredible. Yeah. Remarkable. I hope he has the robe and the throne and just does that great flourish sit. That's one of my favorite gifts out of the Hobbit production.

Well, he does that flourish sit anyway. I mean, he's been doing that since we were 18. He just finally found an avenue where, you know, a venue, I should say, that, that, that, you know, allowed him to really go there. Even does that when he's sitting in front of the fucking computer and halt and catch fire. He's like, here we go. You're just like, oh, that's a show.

You're beautiful man. Great show. Great show. All right, Mallory. Mallory, tell me your Tolkien origin story. My Tolkien origin story. Let's see. Lord of the Rings is the first story that I ever loved.

It is the first story that I ever really, really fell into and fell in love with. And I was a really slow learner. Like when it came to reading, I learned to read really late. And Lord of the Rings was always my dad's favorite story when he was a kid growing up. And so it was something that was like very present in our household. Joe has heard me mention this many times. Ring of Verse listeners have heard me mentioned this very many times.

But there's a little bookshelf that my dad put in my room with all of the stories, you know, that he hoped I would discover and read one day, like on my own time, at my own pace. and The Hobbit. Even I went home, I went home this summer and I went and the Hobbit is still right there, right in the middle, all these years later.

And in the fifth grade, when I had finally become like a little bit more of a confident reader, I got bumped up into a higher reading group. And it was this big moment, this formative moment

in my life as young reader. And the Hobbit was the first book that we read in that reading group. And so it's like entwined in my memory with sort of discovering this sense of purpose as a reader where a story wasn't just homework or something that I felt anxious about getting through, but something that I could really, really, really lose myself in.

And then fellowship was part of our sixth grade reading curriculum. And I have a vivid memory. Yeah, I have a vivid memory of being so captivated by that book that I was hiding it under my desk at Hebrew school so that I could I keep reading passages instead of paying attention. And... Oh, my God. I just loved the story so much. The movies came out when I was in high school.

And I saw each of them with my dad and my stepmom back in Baltimore. And again, I just have such fond memories of seeing those films for the first time and falling so deeply into them. I was texting with my dad last night because he's really excited for the new show. And I was recalling that when we came home from two towers, my stepmom, who wasn't as familiar with the story was like... I'm pretty worried about Sam. You know, he's been through a lot. My dad just saying, Deb, there's more in store for Sam Lise Gamgee. Buckle up.

Wow. And I went to college a year after Return of the King, and that was when I did a reread. So that, like, early college years, I just have such vivid memories of sitting alone in my dorm room freshman year waiting to make friends, like, getting. a feel for this new phase of my life, rereading the trilogy, rereading Harry Potter, and then so many of my early friendships, and these are still some of my closest friends to this day,

were other people who loved those stories too. And that just became like elemental to those years of my life. And now, of course, to how I spend so much of my time. So, you know, I think the Game of Thrones has undeniably been the most central story in my life for the past decade or so. And I think that Harry Potter was really the first story that I found completely on my own that meant that much to me.

But Lord of the Rings was the OG. It was the first one way back when. What about you, Joe? I don't quite fully remember what my relationship to Tolkien was before that era of anticipation right before the movie was coming out, the first movie was coming out. But I do know that I was in college. I was my freshman year of college. and, you know, the guy that I was in love with and then eventually dating had a Lord of the Rings poster on his ceiling.

And so I was like, okay, I'm going to. Sealing. Okay. Yeah. What ceiling was depicted in the poster? No, it's a whole, it was like a beautiful illustrated poster because it was before the movies. Oh, sure. This is pretty, pretty movies.

Yeah, it was just like every character sort of beautifully illustrated into this thing. And I was like, what is this? This looks amazing. And so I, and then I always like to read the book before I watch the thing. So I was like, okay, I'm going to read the books. Got the old Leapace editions of the books from my local bookstore. And just fell in love with the world. And then every Christmas, when a new movie came out, I was back home from college.

And that's when I saw all my friends from high school. And we would go line up at the big theater in Marin County. and I think Return of the King here was in the rain to go see his big long lines around the corner to get into the big theater and for Return of the King I remember the theater was like muggy and damp because we'd all been standing in the rain

and then we just sat in the theater for like over three hours and it was just like... But it was a... But no, but it was just like a beautiful bonding experience just like a real like we did this together sort of thing and as Mallory, and I mentioned a couple times. She and I both rewatch the Peter Jackson trilogy every single year.

When do you do it? Joe, you do Christmas? I do Christmas and you do Thanksgiving. Adam and I do Thanksgiving. Yeah, every year. Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving rewatch? Yeah.

That's great. Yeah, I certainly did it annually for a while. And then there was, there have been some gaps. But I'm about to introduce them, in fact, this weekend to my kids. Oh. Because this is the first show they can watch that I've ever worked on. So, but I'd like. them to see the, I think I'd like them to, I think the show will mean more to them if they, if they're, if they see the originals first. So, um, not right now, the only debate is do I show them the extendeds or the theatricals first. I think I might just do the theatricals. Because the extenders are so much. And they're younger. I mean, I'm usually like such a hard line extended person, extended edition person. Oh, me too. I haven't watched the theatricals since.

With your, I just want your kiddos to love it. So give them all the best opportunity to love it, you know. Jomi our social has just chimed into the Zoom to say extended only. But I mean like one of them is six. So I just don't, I don't want them to. I'm a little worried. That four hour, 23 minute runtime on the return of the king extended. Yeah. Of course.

I'm planning to kind of break it up anyway. But I don't know. I'm debating it because I haven't watched them since the extendeds. I have not watched the theatricals once. So I, I'm debating. It's an ongoing debate. internally. Anyway, sorry, Joanna, I interrupted you. No, that's fine. We got some listener feedback because I was just saying, when we were talking about the extended editions recently, I said something about like, oh, how one of my favorite scenes when Arwen comes upon Erdogan and she goes, what's this? A Ranger called off his God. And I was like, that's only in the extended. And someone tweeted me, they're like, you haven't watched the theatrical in a while.

Yeah, that's a theatrical too. And I was like, God damn it. Okay. Anyway, we're also want to talk about just sort of Tolkien's, I'll say this. I was on the big picture with Sean Fantasy this week talking about 3,000 years of longing, the new George Miller sort of fantasy film. And we were talking about fantasy films in general. And the interesting, like there's this really interesting 80s boom of fantasy films like Willow and Beastmaster, etc. And, you know, Willow, great, great movie, right, Mallory, Rubin? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. As I always like to say, great movie that I've definitely seen. Never seen Willow? Never seen Willow?

I told Joe. I'm going to watch it to share her passion. It's just a weird, you know, every now and then you just have like a really weird blank spot? And Willow is one of them. And I missed the ringerverse pod where a couple of our other co-hosts revealed to Joe that they hadn't seen it. And so for a couple quiet months, they had escaped her judgment and her wrath. But then I found instead a welcoming open spirit encouraging me to join her before this fall. I will say in your defense, the movie came out and under.

performed and and it's not like it was a cultural juggernaut. I and Joanie, you're only a little bit younger than me, I think. I'm right in the window where I was right just the right age and anyone my age saw it in the theater. But it wasn't, you know, it kind of, it's kind of, it's more of a cult movie in a lot of ways, which is a funny thing to say about a Lucasfilm property, but, you know, I know. It's, it's, it came out right at the end of that, of that decade of fantasy boom. Like it came on 88. And then it wasn't huge.

It did pretty well on VHS, but it wasn't like huge theatrical, obviously. And then, and then that literally just. I don't think. Right. And then it literally disappeared for a while. Like you couldn't get it for a while. Now it's on Disney Plus so you can watch it. But anyway, sorry.

I'm always trying to talk about Will and I apologize. But the point being, there's this 80s fantasy boom. Then there's this like fallow period in sort of the 90s a bit. And then Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson kicks off another sort of fantasy era. The illustrious Brian Cogman wrote on a show, executive produced a show called Game of Thrones that sustained it, Harry Potter, et cetera, et cetera. We're now like 20 years into this like fantasy era.

And I would argue that both of those eras were kicked off by Tolkien. The 80s boom had to do with like the Tolkien nerds and the D&D nerds who like grew up and became people who have made movies. And that's sort of how we got the 80s boom. I can't really explain the nine. I got some texts from people about this, but I can't really explain the 90s bear, but like definitely Tolkien is responsible for the second boom. So like Tolkien's power in this realm of fantasy, even if you are listening to this and you've never read a single page of Tolkien or you watch the Jackson films once or whatever, just know that he is so responsible for so many of the stories you love come from the tree that he planted. So, Brian, I just wanted to ask you, like, as you were thinking about formulating the rings of power, and as you were just thinking about it generally, like, what do you make of Tolkien's lasting impact?

Why is this the story that has had so much spring from it? Well, I think it's a few things. I think it's given that he was, you know, an academic and an incredible, you know, scholar of, you know, scholar of. of history, religious history, religious theology, mythology. It is, as a work, it is so informed by all of the great stories of the past. You know, I mean, the most basic stories from Gilgamesh to Beil of all of it. All of that informs the work. So I think there is a sort of, in many ways, it is, it is the mega story,

because it is, it's infused with all of the, um, mythology and all of the great stories, epic stories, uh, that preceded it. But then because of the time in which it was written, and Tolkien was, is, you know, and much of his writing very, uh, explicit that, that it is not an allegory. He did not consciously make it an allegory. And, and I, I see no reason to, to disbelieve him. That said, um, I think it's very, um, apparent that while it may not have been consciously an allegory, it is certainly informed very powerfully by the times he was living in, and the times he was living in World War I and into World War II. And, you know, he starts dreaming up this world in world, I believe, and

someone's going to come after me if I get this wrong, but I believe he starts, you know, formulating the ideas for Middle Earth and for this story in the aftermath of World War I. and the Hobbit comes out in the late 30s, and then he completes the Lord of the Rings post-World War II. And that is, you know, that's the closest time to our recent history, unless, you know, things go the way I think they're going to, where the world, as we know, it nearly fucking ended. And this is a story about the world,

as these people know it nearly fucking ending. And so it comes at this sort of pivot point, I think in the early part of the 20th century where more so, more than I think anyone in recent history, the entire collective peoples of the earth were really facing a kind of existential, you know, a crisis, a real doom. And that informs it. So when you get into the post-World War II era and you read this story, I think it's, and you realize that it's in some way connected to your grandfather,

your great-grandfather. My grandfather was a Scottish Air Force pilot who fought in World War II. And that gives it a kind of depth and a kind of power that I think sets it apart. And then, yeah, I think then at that point, the film industry progresses and people are influenced by him. all of the fantasy epics from Wheel of Time to Sony Vice and Fire to Harry Potter, all of that. All of that have, all of those stories have, have Lord of the Rings in their essential DNA. So it's sort of kind of a halfway, I think, point in terms of modern pop culture and genre stuff, you know, Star Wars, all of it, and all of the great myths of old passed down from the beginning of time.

Lord of the Rings kind of sits squarely in the middle. So that's sort of, I think, a large, a large reason why it's impactful. But ultimately, the reason you watch it, I suspect, every year is it comes down again to characters and people you love in making difficult choices. And the deliberate choice, the very deliberate choice, that the hobbits and that that, that, that, these sort of salt of the earth characters are the ones who ultimately have the fate of the world in their hands. I think that's what, that's, that's, that's why it continues. I mean, it's very, it's a very simple answer, but I think when, with all of everything else around it, it does boil

down to that. It's about these four simple, you know, country folk that find themselves in this extraordinary adventure and and and do not emerge the same at the end, which I think is a very important element as well. So that was a very long, rambling answer. But that, that was, I understood that sort of in an intellectual sense before really working on it on the show. But when you immerse yourself in it, the sort of the sort of importance of the narrative in terms of the larger world really, really comes home. But you wouldn't feel that if it weren't for The Hobbits. I so love the way that Brian just described it.

I think that's exactly right. This story sits at this crucial place as this bridge between all of the great myths that spawned so many stories. And it then becomes, because of the way that it distills those, the new touchstone for so many of the things that sprung from it that we love. is the archetype for so many readers and viewers now and creators as well. You know, we, uh, in addition to covering genre tales here at the Ringer, we cover a lot of sports.

And I think often about, you know, Joe, you mentioned a tree already. I think of often of coaching trees in the NFL and the way that you trace back the schematic advances to an origin point. and who is like the Bill Walsh of genre storytelling? It's talking, right? And I think that's what I've always said. Always. Always.

I know that that's Joe's mentioned Bill Walsh many times in her in her Middle Earth commentary previously. But I think the reason that I think of sports coaching treats is kind of a handy comp is because it's not just mimicry that follows. It can't be. Then the impact isn't really felt. you have to inspire something that allows people to then discover their own story within that and from that. And the DNA, the snippets of the DNA, that we can all recognize. This story here today that we are reading now or watching now could not exist without Lord of the Rings, could not exist without Frodo and Sam, could not exist without Ghalm. But it's not just those

same things or it wouldn't be interesting. It wouldn't be new. It wouldn't be vibrant. And I think the great stories like Lord of the Rings, like The Hobbit, allow people not only to feel and channel that influence, but to discover the story that they want to tell, the story that they want to share with other people. And that, I think, is the real magic of it and why it is so seminal to so many people, because it is so clear how influential it has been on our culture at large. It's, it's, it's the roots are, the roots are vast and sprawling. What Brian said about the mythic origin of the story, I remember being in college, I was in this history of the English language class, and my professor was talking about Lord of the Rings. And she was like, oh, yeah, you know, Tolkien lifted so much.

And she's like, the Roheum are just like, this is just Norse culture sort of transplanted over. And I didn't know much at the time. So I was like, oh, and she was like, you know, where's the horse? Where's the writer? Like that's, that's, he's just lifting old songs and old poems, so like that. Not in a bad way because like he was a, he was a scholar of, of these things. And he's just sort of lifted and everything is interpolation. Everything is remixing and interpolation.

So, but I think in addition to every smart thing that you all just said, I think there is this added element of the personal nature of the story for Tolkien. Because as much as you can source it to like sort of his dustier research, what's also true is like the beginning of it all is he was bored grading papers and he just wrote down like, you know, there was a hobbit who lived in a hole in the ground. That's the origin of everything. Is he's just sort of like, what does that mean? Like, what does that sentence mean? That's interesting. So that's a very human thing. But also, it became this story that he told his children. Like it's, you know, it goes back to Mallory's dad putting a bookcase in her room. Like, these are the stories that he told his children.

And when he wrote Lord of the Rings, you know, he wrote The Hobbit first, hugely popular, then he eventually wrote The Lord of the Rings, wasn't necessarily. He wanted to write more dusty histories, and his publishers were like, how about some juicy novels? Yeah. Yeah. And he wrote it largely in correspondence with his son who was off fighting World War II, Christopher Tolkien, who becomes, you know, the protector of the Tolkien estate. But when you think about it that way, what that makes everyone in this story,

again, it's not allegory, but it makes Tolkien kind of Bilbo and his son kind of Frodo. And it's like, I went through one adventure. I survived one flare up of evil in this world. Now here's your turn to go and fight face down this evil in the world. And here's this beautiful yarn I'm going to spin about your time. And so in that way, it feels so personal. And so as academic as it is, as in like, you know, all of that stuff, it is also just a very personal, I think, story for Tolkien and for that reason. And because the hobbits are irresistible, like, maybe I too could throw a ring in a volcano and save the world.

I am also in joy as a pipe leaf, you know, so. I love how you said that. And that's how George, you know, that's how George came up with Sunnibis and Fire. I mean, the first thing he ever wrote was the boys finding the dire wolves in the snow without any idea what it was. You know, it's very similar to what you said about, how about just writing the first sentence of The Hobbit and what does this mean, you know? Speaking of George, great transitions. Like you're born for podcasting Brian Cogman. The tale ruined the telling.

Wow, wow. I've never heard your George impression before. That's incredible. the uh we all have three of us have a relationship with thrones we're like back in it to a certain degree because of the house of the dragon but you you had a very particular journey from thrones to ring of power in that like game with thrones wraps up and the next thing you do is to go into this room and and work on building this Tolkienian world that uh is it comes from like Thrones comes from Tolkien but they're very different thematically and so I was just wondering if you could like what was it like for you to come off of Georgia's world and then dive into this one? And like, what did working on that show make you think about as you were trying to put together

this show? It was kind of an insane turn of events because there was no, I had no desire whatsoever to work on Lord of the Rings. So basically, I think I did what a lot of people did when I read the press release saying, you know, Amazon buys the, you know, rights to Lord of the Rings, television rights to Lord of the Rings for X amount of money. I remember I probably, oh, great, okay, here we go. That's too bad. And I just, you know, I have to say, I just assumed the, I assumed the most, you know,

I took the most cynical read of it because I think most, well, most of us did when we first read it, to be fair. And, yeah, Thrones was wrapping up, and my particular Thrones spinoff that I was developing didn't go and I was dabbling with a couple other joining a couple other shows or creating a couple of other shows and and when Amazon called

about rings I mean I think they wanted me on it full time as you know in a similar capacity that I was with Thrones understandably and I said look I just I can't it's thought the last thing I want to do is another 10 years of an enormous fantasy epic

I can't move my family to New Zealand or Spain or wherever the hell you're going to shoot this. Like, no, thank you, but absolutely not. I didn't even want to take the meeting. It's like, no, of course not. Why would I do that? And but I eventually made a separate deal with Amazon and they said, well, will you just, will you just meet with the guys, just meet with the guys with JD and Patrick who they'd hired at this point? And here, hear their pitch. And could you maybe just help them for the first 20 weeks? because they were stocking a really terrific murderer's row of an initial writer's room. And I said, well, of course, okay.

And I sat with the guys. And I have to say, it's one of the most vivid memories I've ever had of a pitch. I think these two, JD and Patrick, JD Payne and Patrick McKay, the showrunners of Rings of Power, they have such an infectious, boyish, deeply heartfelt. energy as as as as as unjaded and un cynical as a pair as I've ever met in in Hollywood and um sat down and safe protect them yeah I know I just truly that's well that was kind of what I felt I felt and they're either a little a little younger than me just a little but um but uh they were they pitched this they this idea this this premise of of of the

show and when it was going to be set and and in terms of of the Legendarium and why they wanted to do it. And they read one specific passage from Lord of the Rings. And I won't say what it is because I don't want to give away anything. But it was a passage that unlocked a very key element of what their plans were. And in that moment, I thought, A, whoa, you're blowing my mind with this particular passage and what that means to you and what you're planning to do. And B, the fact that they just won in B, one, two, the fact that they,

the fact that they that they were drawing it directly from the text, the kernel of the seat of why they wanted to do what they wanted to do with the world and why they wanted to tell this particular kind of more global story. I just immediately was like,

oh, no, no, my God, they found the right people for this. Like, these, these, these, it could have been so easy to do like the adventures of Legolas and Gimley. and I know that a lot of people brought in a lot of pitches, and I have no knowledge as to what they were. But within 15 minutes, I thought, oh, I'm definitely going to do what I can to help these guys at the start

because I just want to hear more and I want to be in the room with them. It was such a lovely feeling. And knowing that it was a finite amount of time, I felt good about it. And then to answer your real question about kind of how it felt, yeah, I mean, I was exhausted by the end of Thrones. And, you know, double my exhaust or triple my exhaustion in terms of everyone else in the crew, because my job was relatively easier compared to most of the people that worked in the show. But I was exhausted and, you know, I was so out of it by the end of Thrones. I don't even remember what my last day on the set was.

I mean, my wife was having a terrible back injury that I was dealing with, and it was just the whole last few weeks of my time in Belfast on Thrones was such a blur. And it was such an intense story, and it's such a, you know, Thrones ends on such a dark note, I suppose, is the one way to put it, that diving into this sloth, legendarium and this mythology and this sensibility with its, with something that has its heart on its sleeve in a way that Thrones doesn't. I mean, Thrones obviously is sincere and obviously has heart and obviously has emotion. We care about the characters, but there's just, there's just a different, there's just a different vibe, a different tone, different feeling

to the world of Tolkien. And it was one that J.D. and Patrick were adamant that we embrace. I mean, they started every day in the writer's room with a quote from Tolkien carefully chosen, invited us to do the same. We would be reading from it out loud as we were trying to generate ideas. And they had a lot of the goalposts for the series and events in the second age that they plan to do. But the nature of the fact that it is based on the appendices and not on the novels meant that there would be a degree of invention, obviously. but it was it was always the mandate from them that all of that invention be drawn from themes,

clues, cultural realities from the text. And that is the text that we legally were allowed to use, which was also, which was a whole other confusing thing that I still don't quite understand. So it ultimately became a very life-affirming cathartic time. I mean, it was an absolutely joyful time. It was exactly what I needed after the intensity and the whirlwind of those 10 years and the pressure that was on all of us in the making and delivery of that final season of Thrones.

And, you know, three-plus months shooting nights for the long night episode and just all of it. This was like a warm blanket. You know, and an amazing group of people. I mean, that initial writer's room was Stephanie Folsom, who wrote to a story for and created Paper Girls, and Jason Cahill, who worked on, you know, everything from ER to fringe to Halt and Catch Fire. Jenny Hutchison, who, you know, were breaking bad and better call Saul. And, of course, the boys, I mean, we, this is my little, my little mug with my name in Elvish that we got for our Christmas gift.

I love it. Writer's Room, our initial writer's room has these. And then it was just such a great, tight, wonderful, safe, lovely space to plan for all those weeks. So much so that I, that I, you know, really considered staying on. But, and I came very, very close to. And I, now that I watch the show, I'm like, shit, I probably should have. But, but, but, but I, you know, I did want to. to develop my own stuff and try and try different things that are not and that were not so,

you know, solidly in the, in the sort and sorcery space. So it was the right decision, but it was, it was a glorious time. And so much of that had to do with, with Tolkien himself and his, and his philosophy and his sensibility. But a lot of it, too, was, was, was JD and Patrick's, you know, leadership and, and their, and their ambitions for the show, which, I can't even imagine. I mean, I think they were crazy to undertake it. But their love for their love for the story is such that I believe it sustained them through what must have been a very, very difficult production, period.

Difficult anyway and tons of pressure anyway, but then you add the COVID of it all. I just can't imagine. So to see the results and to see how they fucking nailed it is just so. gratifying. And and and and and and and and and and and for really letting for for for for for giving them the tools to do it and letting them make their show because you know again cynical me was like I don't know it's always it's always the show you want to do when it's cards on a whiteboard. Right right right. But then what I've seen at least the two episodes I've seen

that's the show that's the show they wanted to make. I want to pick up on some of things you said about sort of like the the hopefulness and then the warmth and the safety of of coming to Tolkien's world. Mal I was talking to one of our colleagues who I will, who shall remain nameless, about, excited to guess. And this person was, this person was sort of asking me the question of like, how do you keep them down the farm after they've seen Game of Thrones? Like after, after, given that Game of Thrones was pitched as not your mother's Lord of the Rings sort of thing, you know, and sort of like, what if Lord the Sopranos and Middle Earth, I believe was the, yes, was the pitch. What if Lord of the Rings was

sex and violence or what if, what if, like, you know, George gets, gets a lot of like, love or credit for saying like, what are these noble fantasy characters acted shittier like real humans would? So my question, mild to you is like, do you think that's discounting some of the darkness that lurks in the hearts of men, elves and dwarves in Tolkien? And also like, do you think there's room in this era where the show is set, which is between the wars, saw on lurking in the fringes, waiting to bounce era, for some of that darker stuff to come through. Do we need it? Do we want it?

Is it there anyway? What do you think, Mal? I'm excited to text you later who I think said that to you. Which of our ringer colleagues hit you with that. Okay, I have numerous thoughts spreading through my minds. like a mountain range on a map of Middle Earth. Here's my first answer. You can keep your fancy ails.

You can drink them by the flag in. The only brew for the brave and true comes from the green dragon. We need that in our lives. That right there. Okay? And I believe that in the center of my, I have like a few different thoughts on the violence and sex thing and just general tone and tenor.

I will say that I think Lord of the Rings could use a bit more fucking. I do believe that to be true and I would embrace that fully. I would welcome that in my token. That's it. I think that like you look at something like, and Georgia said this in many, many, many, many interviews over the years. I think the first time that I encountered this idea from him was back in that Rolling Stone interview that he did in 2014 with the now oft quoted what was Aragorn's tax policy line, where he explained not only his affection and real reverence and almost, you know, he said many times

he worships Tolkien, right? It's not like he's rejecting anything about it, but he's saying this is how I then made my story different. These are the aspects that I wanted to explore. I think that's great. Like, I embrace that part of it, that some of these stories are different from each other as part of why we have room in our hearts for more than one thing at one time. I don't want everything to feel the same. But I think that it's reductive and frankly wrong to say that there's not any sort of dark spirit or inclination inside of the world of Tolkien.

I just don't think that's true at all. I think it's actually a little bit contrary to the mission of, you know, we've mentioned hope a few times today. And, you know, not to go all Ethan Hawke putting pepto in my whiskey and first reformed, but you can't hope and despair have to coexist. You can't have hope without despair. And so despair permeates this story. And it is the thing that our heroes have to find a way to overcome and push through.

Sauron and the idea of this embodiment of evil, I think that the moral gray, and obviously Joe, that's something that we've been talking about a lot, with our House of the Dragon coverage so far. The moral gray is a very appealing thing. And I like the idea of the new television show and just the time and the space, the TV is as a medium affords, playing in that in-between space a little bit more.

But I think that this is just a classic, like more than one thing can be true at once, and none of these things are mutually exclusive realm of discourse to me. Like when Bilbo at the beginning of fellowship is telling us about hobbits and telling us about life in the shire and says, you know, where our hearts truly lies and peace and quiet and good tilled earth, there's not a time of my life that I've watched that 10 second span of the movie and not broken down into tears. Because I think that is just the most lovely sentiment. And I want that in my stories too. I want the thing that we are driving for and working to maintain because what is the point of it otherwise? Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right. I think without getting into any specifics, obviously,

but I think the justification for this era of Tolkien being dramatized and this format being an episodic television series is you can really dig into the inner workings of all of these incredible societies that Tolkien created in a way that the quest narrative of Lord of the Rings just doesn't afford you. this more global story that J.D. and Patrick and the team are telling, drawn from the appendices, I think will allow for some nuance and explorations of that gray area that you're speaking of. And the idea of, you know, the idea of peacetime, you know, there's really no such thing as peacetime. And as much as peacetime, and as much as peacetime, is what breeds the wartime. And exploring that in between of the first age and the third age, the episodic television format is the ideal place,

the ideal way to do that. And that was part of what kind of excited me when the guys mentioned that they were doing it here. Because you're absolutely right. There is hopefulness and optimism and beauty and humor and good feeling. and warmth in the Lord of the Rings, but there is also, as you say,

uh, astonishing, impenetrable and very arresting darkness and the journey that Frodo goes through and that elemental evil that the ring um, personifies is, is as, is as power. I mean, the fact that the object,

and then this is one of the directorial flourishes that Jackson just nails. I mean, the, he makes this object and Tolkien and Dean in the writing makes the object. so terrifying, you know. Weighty. Distilling it to this. Yeah.

Like I'll never forget when I saw the first movie and the ring lands with a thud, you know, on the floor with that, with, and doesn't, doesn't jingle. It just don't look. Which they did with magnets. Love that. That's like maybe one of my favorite effects in all of the Jackson. It's true. It's good old fashion, good old fashion movie making. Oh, man.

But I just remember being so kind of. astonished by that moment. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, I, I agree. And I, I, I hope I wasn't suggesting that, you know, Thrones is dark and, uh, no, no, rings is not. I don't think you were thinking, saying I was suggesting that. But I think, I think your friends, uh, your colleagues question might have a little bit of that in it.

I think some people might remember cute little hobbits when they think of Lord of the Rings and forget about, you know, uh, the, the serious stuff. And what's exciting about the show and what I think, again, the team has nailed is it has all of those notes. It plays all of those notes and juggles the tone really, really wonderfully. This, you know, to further underline what this era is that we're talking about here is the second age, a prequel to everything that, you know, we saw in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, both. That's why Galadriel and Elrond are like just, you know, we only have a few characters we recognize

and they're the ones who don't age. That's who's kicking around here. But if you want to get a sense of without any, like, detailed particular spoilers of, like, what's to come, it's the prologue that Kate Blanchet very famously intones over the front, you know, they were all of them deceived. And it's about this idea of seduction of power, the corrupting influence of Sauron and the ring and the various rings, right?

The ring zah of power. And so there's so much more room, I think, in this era. And there's plenty of it in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. If you look at, you know, like your Boromeres or like what's happening with, you know, Theodin King or what's happening with, you know, Ghalom, like all of these like corrupting, conflicting Frodo himself. Like the war inside the heart of Frodo is the core of the story. and that's is not just simply heroic noble people start in Rivenell and and in like Mordor and that and and not at all no pulls and pushes in the other direction along the way you know but I think there's so much more room for that here and as you say in an episodic television series to both put a lot of

flesh on the bones that are the appendices source material that you you folks you find folks are working off of and in doing so really explore the fears and wants and all these things that lurk inside the heart of all these creatures that make them susceptible to corruption and seduction. And that is very thronesy. So, you know, I don't think rings of power needs to be thronesy at all. I don't need it to be the same show. But like, I think it is a misread to call this like an innocent, happy go lucky kind of tale. Do you know what I mean? No, I think there's certainly more of a of a palace intrigue political element to it that you might not necessarily. When you first think of Lord of the Rings associate, although it is all there, I think it's

very important to reiterate it. It is all there. It's just not necessarily the element you think of first. And it is indeed not the only element of the TV show. I think what they've done rather wonderfully has given us a lot of flavors to play with, which I think we did, you know, in our best, in our best years, I think we did that with Thrones as well. I mean, I think the reason Thrones hit and continues to hit is because it's never the same show twice, and it has so many different threads with so many different flavors to it. So in terms of how one thing can be got another, certainly the success of Jackson's films created the runway for something like Game of Thrones to be done,

and I think, frankly, the success of Thrones gave a, gave us runway when we were planning Lord of the Rings to be able to be like, okay, well, we can have a television show with 22 main characters in all these far-flung parts of this fantasy world, and the audience will go there, and they will be able to follow it. And if I helped at all at the beginning,

I suppose it was being able to advise on how one structures such a series, you know, if I brought anything to it. I'm sure that was part of it. But, um, Okay, Brian. I'm pretty sure you brought a lot more than that, Brian Cogman. I don't know.

I always picked good places for lunch to order from. You're a note card guy over a whiteboard guy. Like, you're a note card guy, right? Like, that's your breaking story? I have bad handwriting, so I'm not technically. No, no, generally. it's like you start with the whiteboard where you throw stuff and then when you get into the details, it becomes the cork board and the note cards. And we had both in our, in our writer's room. And the

whiteboard also affords, you know, Jason Cahill, one of our, one of our, one of the exact producer and writer on the show. And wonderful man. He likes to draw. He would, he would do pitches visually, which was wonderful. I'd never really, I'd never really seen before. there's a key element that involves a certain kind of thing that I can't say, but that he drew. Like he had the idea and he was like, the only way I can really convey this is by drawing it. He drew this sort of visualization of the idea that has made it into the show. And I love that. And that's also very Tolkien.

I don't have them down here in my office, but I have these wonderful books. There are these two beautiful books, the art of Lord of the Rings and the art of the Hobbit. And I'm not talking about movie tie-ins. I'm talking about Tolkien's own sketches. He was a visual thinker as well and would work this stuff out. And so that even happened in our writer's room,

which I thought was a lovely thing. And another big element that we haven't talked about real quick that really informs the show and absolutely is drawn from the books is this idea of the environmentalism of it all, the idea of the corruption of the world reflected in and manifesting in the earth itself, in the trees, the ground, like what that kind of, what evil creeping in can do in terms of the festering and the way that the natural elements and natural environments and textures of all of these environments reflect character and vice versa.

that's a huge part of the books and a huge part of what informed the work on the series. And I think when everybody sees it, I'm such a hype guy here. But when everybody sees it, I mean, you're going to be glad that there was so much money to throw at this thing because the visual realization and design elements of the show are utterly astonishing. I mean, I was just blew away every other. expectation I had truly. And a really tough act to follow with the Jackson films, which are

also exemplary. But there's just so much that the team was able to realize. And the whole worlds that are never seen. They're only mentioned in myth

and story and song in the Third Age. You get to see here brought to the screen for the first time. And it's, it's not just, I mean, there's amazing CGI, but it's not just a CGI fest. They built incredible sets and, and, and there's just so much life and texture to the design elements to the show. But again, always informed by character and always informed by the text and the source material. Never informed by, wouldn't it be cool if? And I think that's what most, I think

that's what most imitate. And frankly, that's how we approached Game of Thrones. It was, it was never, you know, in terms of the design elements. It was never, wouldn't it be cool if it was, you know. And I think that's what a lot of the imitators of both our show and of Lord of the Rings Miss. And I'm happy to report that Lord of the Rings Rings of Power does not miss. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business.

And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet. internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Prime.

Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book-to-screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it big or small. So whether it's buying tickets,

the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms of play. I am so eager

to hear like what our three choices are that I am going to like zoom forward into that section list. There's anything else you guys want to discuss. I feel like we'll have opportunity in our three moments to discuss some more things. That sounds great. Good to go on that front. you're ribbon. Let's ride. I'm ready. All right. The rules are simple. It's not really a game. It's

just a thing we do, which is, you know, we've picked three moments that we feel set the tone or or a particular interest to us as we go through this. We'll start at the bottom. Number three will work away up to the top number one. If someone says something lower down on the list that one of the rest of us has higher, We will talk about it at the higher moment. So if you'll feel to jump in and be like, uh-uh, I had that higher and then we'll do that. I actually didn't realize until Brian was here that I stole that from screen drafts. But that's where we are.

Okay. So, um, um, Molly Rubin, do you want to kick us off with your number three? Oh my God. What pressure.

Which, which Lee Pace's thread will seem are you going to choose first? All of my top three moments are from Lee Pace's trend. his recent GQ photo shoot. Is that okay? Sure. Is one of them just the mesh see-through pocket that perfectly frames his left nipple?

Is that one? He's a beautiful man. He's very special. Okay, so, Joe, it'll shock you to hear that I have a little bit of a preamble before I actually make a pick. I know you're stunned. It's never happened before here on one of our pods.

It'll never happen again. Never again. Yeah. Okay. An agonizing exercise, an exhilarating one, but incredibly difficult to narrow this down to three. And so I decided, you said earlier, you thought ours were going to be a little more like plot forecasting and Bryans would be more about feeling. I kind of went for the feels here with all three of my picks. I went for, and I think they have plot. I think that's appropriate for this material. Yeah, I think they have plot resonance, certainly, and are good things to be keeping in mind in terms of, like, the quintessential elements of the story and the world and the world building and the characters who grip us so fully.

But there are certain moments, and I just rewatched the trilogy this week. There are certain moments that just embed themselves in my heart as fully as really anything else in storydom. And those are the ones I picked. So I love that. I love that. Did you and Adam have to get like a turkey sandwich or something like that to like like because

you were watching it early and you're like, oh no, it's August. Get some mashed potatoes. I did find myself, yeah, craving some Thanksgiving meal accompaniments and also some, you know, bad Lions football for Thanksgiving day, but I have hard knocks for that. Mold wine. Always welcome. I love that. I love that you were craving bad Lions football.

Part of the Thanksgiving tradition. You know? Just like need it. I need it. It's part of the experience for me now. I did attempt to spread things out a bit. So what I ended up doing was I picked one moment

from each of the films in the Jackson trilogy. That's a spoiler and a snapshot of my list to come. I felt confident that you, Joe, and probably you, Brian, would have some deep cuts and that I had thus without ever speaking to you about it, a lot of permission to go with some greatest hits here. You don't have to qualify. I love this so much.

You're so, you're so worried about. Well, I'm usually, I come on these pods and I'm like, let me recite passage 47 from page 934 of Tome 17. That's classic Valerie. It's true. No, no. Not today. Not today.

Okay. Also, just could, the order from three to one, nearly impossible. They're all number one. Okay. But I'm starting with number three because that's the spirit of the exercise today. And I will begin with return of the king. the hardest one for me to narrow down to pick from, I'll say that.

This is one of my favorite movies of all time. By the time I die, this will be the movie I've seen the most of any movie in the world of my life. So it's your favorite of the films. Okay.

What's your favorite of the three, Brian? Oh, fellowship's number two for me. Yeah. Okay. Return, I just, I just suck it. They're all great. Okay. I mean, they're all great.

No, I love them all, but I can talk about fellowship in a minute. But yeah. Fellowship is astounding. It is. Okay. So my first pick from Return of the king ever heard of it.

This is sort of a two-parter because I have the primary moment and then a moment that precedes it. I'm smuggling already, Joe. I'll smuggle. Smuggle. The Grey Havens. Let's do it.

We're on the Eve. The Grey Havens. We're about to begin a new journey. And when I think about a beginning, I also think about an ending. If I may quote our dear Gandalf. Mm-hmm. I wonder how many times

I will cry reading it. reading through my moments today. We should have said it over under. I'm not going to be able to get through any of these. I was trying to tell Adam earlier what I picked. I just started crying in the kitchen. Very embarrassing. Normal way to start Friday.

Farewell, my brave hobbits. My work is now finished. Here at last on the shores of the sea comes the end of our fellowship. I will not say, do not weep. For not all tears are in evil. It is time, Frodo. And our dear Sam says,

what does he mean? And Frodo turns and says, we set out to save the Shire, Sam, and it has been saved, but not for me. Just an all-timer, like a pantheon, pantheon storytelling moment. And of course, what we hear that Sam has not heard is Frodo, as he is finishing the words in his story, leaving still those last pages for Sam that he will gift to Sam and pass along to him. He says when he is still back at Bag End, how do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on when in your heart you begin to understand there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend, some hurts that go too deep that have taken hold.

This for me is like the saddest and most gut-wrenching and anguish-inducing sequence in the entire trilogy because it is such a devastating, but also beautiful and moving and inspiring encapsulation of gain permanently entwined with loss and pursuit entwined with sacrifice always. The thing that you fought so hard to save, what happens if it's not the same for you when you make your way back to it at last? That is like such a devastating idea. And I I think it is so central to why this is such a lasting and impactful story because they did save the Shire and Sam went and he built his life and he returned and Pip and Mary and it's never going to be exactly as it was and we can see that in the looks that they pass between each other

over a pint. But for Frodo, the journey changed him too much and the journey does change you and it should. And I think that's a really important assessment. element of this story. It should. If it doesn't change you, you know, when you think about, like, the hero's journey and all of those classic steps that we always like to think about and talk about, that threshold to the return, what does it mean if you actually just sink back into your old life? Like, what does that say about the experience that you had or the toll that it, that it imparted on you and those around you? Like, some things you can pass on and pass down and you work to protect, and Frodo does that too. Like, that's the other thing. That's not lost. He gives Sam those pages.

And I think we have the confidence as viewers and readers that Sam will find a way to fill them that the story is passed on. And you then make your own story moving forward. You have your own journey. Frodo stepped out the door just like Bilbo did before. And then someone will step out of the door after Frodo. But Frodo can't step back inside anymore, not really. And I just love that so much. And I won't be able to stop thinking about that as we watch these new characters take their first step into this new journey.

Usually I would let the guests go next. But I'm going to sneak in here because my number three is so close to me. Mallory's that I'm just going to like knock it out here. Mine is too, but I'll let you. Comes from the text itself, but it's the same. It's Chapter 7, Homeward Bound. And it's about Frodo's wound. I think Frodo's wound, the unheeled wound that, by the way, John Snow also has,

is so key to all of this. Are you in pain, Frodo? Said Gandalf quietly as he rode by Frodo's side. Well, yes, I am, said Fredo. It's my shoulder. The wound aches. and the memory of darkness is heavy on me. It was a year ago today.

Alas, is Gandalf, there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured. I fear it may be so with mine, Frodo, said, there is no real going back, though I may come to the shire. It will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? And Gandalf did not answer. So it's like, it's absolutely in the same bucket, Mallory, in terms of like, Frodo's uncure. terrible wound and how you can't go home again.

And I think how that relates most to rings of power that we're just about to watch, again, without like spoiling anything major, is to say that like a character like Galadriel who is not, you know, this is in all the trailers, right? This is a woman who has come through war. And the kingdom has settled into peacetime. And she's like, the war's not done, though. Like, Sauron's not gone, though. Like, what are you doing?

The evil is still out there. She's this Cassandra-like figure. And so she is someone who is carrying, and especially when we talk about the long lies of elves, how, like, other generations of critters in this world, dwarves and humans and stuff like that, generationally can forget a war. She fought in that war. She lost her dearest people in that war, and she's carrying that wound. with her essentially.

And so she can't just, you know, be a, you know, be a peacetime elf again. She's just like, no, the armor stays on. Like, what's happening here? And I think that that lingering effect of war, again, thinking about Tolkien writing between the wars, between World War I and World War II, and how the seeds of war planted in peace time. Like all of that sort of stuff is a is cake is baked into everything here. Yeah.

It's the first. Right. Opening of that sequence. Yeah. Love it. It all connects. By the way, Mallory, I just want to tell you that our beloved Dave Gonzalez, my co-s and child by content, that's familiar with Dave.

And he was like, he's like, Mallory keeps studying that quote of like the Seas of War zone and peace time. He's like, what else would the Seas of War be sewn? And I was like, fair enough. It's a beautiful open. But in passage, Dave, you know that if you read the books. Damn it. All right, Brian, what's your number three?

Mine's related. Mine is also from the book. It's not a moment. It's a section, and it's the scouring of the Shire chapter in The Return of the King of the book, which you will not find in the movies because Peter Jackson did not use it. Now, and the reason I bring it up is, lovely, you've both explained. beautifully kind of how it ties sort of thematically with what you're with what the hobbits coming home and you can't really go home again and what is what is the aftermath of of war and despair and

how do you pick up the pieces um i bring it up a because it's an incredible sort of novel in and of itself kind of at the end there it's it's um in many many Tolkien scholars consider arguably one of the most important things he ever wrote um And the reason I bring it up is in regards to adaptation and the challenge of adaptation and the challenge of one form being adapted into another. Jackson, I think, was right to cut it because he was making a movie. And even though it was like a three and a half hour movie, it would have been strange. It wouldn't have worked. It would not have had the effect it has when you're reading it as a novel.

For those of you who don't know, the scouring of the shire is a section in the front of the king after the whole thing is over and after Aragorn's become king, the hobbits go home, and they come home to find that the shire and hobbits has been taken over by a mysterious,

malevolent character named Sharky, who, much like the Nazis has found collaborators within the society and, you know, stripped it all its resources and has enslaved the hobbits and has taken up residence in Bag End. And you come to find out, of course,

that Sharkey is Saraman, who has lost all of his wizard power but wants total revenge on the hobbits that ultimately did this to him. And so he and Wormtong have just come to destroy the place. And so the death scene, a version of the death scene, Jackson uses in the extended version of Return of the King,

but in fact, he meets his end in a similar way at Warm Tung's Hand through treachery in this last section of the book. And I get why Jackson cut it. He was right to it. It would have really would have been strange after three and a half hours to have a 20 to 30-minute sequence. Five endings. Here, yeah. That said, it is.

an extremely powerful, beautiful chapter. And the experience of reading the book, it flows beautifully. And it is a much more extreme kind of exploration of all of the stuff that you ladies beautifully were just talking about in terms of Frodo and coming home again. And the reason I bring it up in terms of our television show is the show, because it is, there is a larger canvas to work with and a different story.

storytelling episodic structure, I think what's exciting about the show is it will allow for chapters like The Scouring of the Shire, if that makes sense. It will allow for, it will allow the time and indeed be fueled by the time that you can spend really digging into all of the different societies and the way they're all affected by the events of the story in a way that, you know, a movie, over long just can't. And that's what's very exciting to me. It was very exciting to all of us when we were breaking this season and talking in a larger sense about the entire series.

That sort of flavor of storytelling and that sort of tangent that the scouring of the Showering of Shire gives you as a reader, the television show, I think will afford the viewer. So it's why I bring it up. My second choice also has some relation to your first choice, which I'll get to in a second. But if you want to ever see the only dramatization of the scouring of the Shire, I recommend Brian Sibley's 1981 radio drama of Lord of the Rings, which is extraordinary. It is absolutely wonderful. It's Ian Holm as Bilbo, Michael Horton as Gandalf, and it is a gorgeous dramatization of the books over many hours, and it features the scouring of the shire and beautifully.

so. Is that the one that isn't Bill Nye in one of the radio play version? Yeah, Bill Nyee. Yeah. Gosh, who does he play? And I can't remember who he plays. He is in it, yes. I think. I feel like he might be fair. Something like that. Anyway, it's just, yeah, he's in it. And Robert, Robert Stevens, a great actor. He's Aragorn. And it's a wonderful, you know, it's like the R.S.C. of the late 70s, early 80s are all in it. And the guy who voices Smigel Gallum in the Ranking Bass specials is also Smigel Gallum in the radio drama. I can't remember his name right now. But anyway, let's go. Bill Nye voiced Sam wise Gamgee. Oh, he's Sam. That's right, he's Sam.

He's Sam. Yeah, because he's wonderful. Yeah, he's wonderful. And Ian Holmes, Ian Holmes Frodo is, I think I said he was Bilbo. He's not. Ian Holm plays Frodo in this adaptation. Okay. I think this is the one from my list that I'm most confident might be on yours, Joe.

but maybe not. It sounds like you didn't keep it basic. This is my fellowship pick. This is one of my favorite scenes in the history of movies. I was just hoping. Yeah, I was just hoping you would have it so that I didn't have it.

So hit me with it, Mallory. So this is, of course, after Frodo spots Gallum in the minds of Moria. And we get an absolutely beautiful conversation and meditation on judgment, purpose, choice, destiny, mercy, all of it, all right here in a couple minutes where the camera is just focused on two people's faces as they discuss the nature of existence with each other. I could not love it more.

after Frodo draws Gandalf's attention to Gallum, Gandalf explains. And now the ring has brought him here. He will never be rid of his need for it. He hates and loves the ring as he hates and loves himself. Smigel's life is a sad story. Yes, Smigel, he was once called, before the ring found him, before it drove him mad.

And then this is where it really begins. Frodo says, It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance, to which Gandalf replies, pity. It is pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

My heart tells me that Gallum has some part to play yet, for good or evil, this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many. And then Frodo says, I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened. And Gandalf says, so do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.

Yep. That almost made my three. I mean, unbelievable. It's definitely my number one favorite moment. I'll explain why it's not number one on my list when I get to my actual number one. This is just such an incredibly captivating and mesmerizing and philosophically and emotionally.

and spiritually stimulating sequence. I think it encapsulates every core proposition of the story, everything that Tolkien is interested in examining the absolute elemental cornerstones of this epic high fantasy tale. Like these are the elements that make this a story that we care about so deeply that we revisit in so many forms year after year that we want to share with the people that we love and with each other. This right here, this exchange.

That pity, that mercy. Jamie and Joe, that's something that we, we, part of the reason I thought you would have this on your list is because we quote this line to each other all the time when we're talking about other stories. It is such a touchstone for us when we're examining the role that Mercy plays in other tales, the way the characters think about that idea. Who views it as a weakness? Who has the wisdom to see the pathway to how it can be a source of strength and what a divide that often is inside of a tale and inside of a journey? I think that the humility that Gandalf is espousing here is, such a point of distinction amid the hubris that leads so many other characters in fantasy tales astray. And, you know, one of my favorite things to talk about in fantasy stories always is free will and destiny and when and how they can coexist. And I think that this passage is such a, such a deft way of exploring how there's room for both sometimes. you know, that idea of being meant to have something I often, just personally, mileage may vary, you're free to interpret things as you will, everyone. Personally, I like tend to, I kind of, I like to rebel against that idea.

I don't want things to be set in stone and predestined. I want our choices to matter, but there's also something comforting and something magnetic about the idea of destiny, about the idea of fate, and certainly about the idea of the idea that we, any of us, are destined to take a part. But how do you take that part? You have to decide to. You have to make the choice to. And this is a passage, I think, in that last part in particular with Frodo saying, I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had ever happened. That connects to what both of you were sharing so beautifully earlier about the characters at the core of this, the hobbits, Frodo, this quintessential fantasy story idea that anybody, no matter how

small can make a difference. I mean, all of that is right here. And the fact that Frodo, that he struggles to embrace that is, I think, so central to why we root for him so fully and are so invested in his tail ultimately. You know, it makes me think of another passage that I reference often because I think it's just so great, which is from Fellowship, the text. And it's Elron saying, yet such is off the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world. Small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the grade are elsewhere. That one also almost made my list is Gannoff and Elrond there. Great beautiful pick.

I was banking on you having it. So thank you so much for doing that. You know, I love the burden of the choice amid the thrill of the call to adventure. I don't want it. Yeah, the burden of choice, but also just the, that, pity stayed Bilbo's hand. Like that act of Bilbo and how far down the history of the story that it resonates and how you can see that this all would have fallen apart were not for that small act of mercy from

from Bilbo. That's so powerful. I think the last time you and I talked about this was in reference to Obi-One-Kadobie. It was. But like, you know, it is very... I also, another thing I never pass on is the chance to think about a bearded you and McGregor. So it's really playing all the hits right now. Brian Cogman.

Yeah, no, I mean, everything you said is dead on. And this section was a passage read aloud and talked about much in the same way. One lovely day in the writer's room. And, yeah, I mean, you hit upon why Fellowship of the Ring is my favorite of the movies. It has the most Gandalf and the most Ian McKellen. So it's just... Just so good. You saw there is to it.

That's why it's my favorite one. The fact that he didn't win the Oscar is absurd. So, yeah, and just the way he, I mean, since you've already talked so much about the thematics, I'll talk about the craft of the scene in the movie and the adaptation. I mean, his, the reason McKellen is so incredible as Gandalf is he underplays and throws away these beautiful pieces of poetry. He speaks them as humanly, as a human, in a humane way. It speaks to my pick in a second.

There's a tenderness. Tender and simple. Even the way he recites the One Ring to Rule the Mall bit, you know, he doesn't intone it. You know, he just says, One Ring to Rule the Mall. One ring to find them. You know, and you're much more, you're even more invested, do you know? So, and I'm almost positive. And I, you know, don't come at me, people, if I'm wrong about this.

But I'm almost positive in the book this exchange happens earlier. I don't remember. I have a memory that it happens earlier in that Jackson and Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh very deftly move the exchange into Moria at a more intense part of the story where you can see Ghalem actually lurking in the shadows while they talk about him. I don't know if I've invented the fact that they made that as an adaptation choice. If I haven't invented it, then good for them. And if Tolkien always had it in there, then apologies, professor. But in any of that.

No, you're right. So do all. So do all. That's in Chapter 2, Shadow's in the past. Like early when they're back and- Brilliant adaptation choice. Because in terms of a dramatic engine to fuel the scene, in a visual medium with actors,

it makes all the sense in the world to put it at this crisis point in the story when things are very low. And Frodo has felt this. effects of the ring for a while, and you can see what, you can, you can see Ghalem and see who they're talking about in a way that just, you know, you can't when you're just saying, oh, Ghalem, this, Golom that. It's, that is, that is a brilliant, a brilliant adaptation choice. And then Foto has enough of his own experience at that point to see Ghalam as, exactly.

Yeah. And that, you know, so on the Eve of Rings of Power, I like that aspect of it, too. Like, the, the, in, in the Tolkienverse, like, the characters who are opposed to each other often can see how the failing of another could be their own future if something goes astray. And I think that that's like a really important element of the world building as well. I just love it. What's funny about, you know, because there's so much agita around Tolkien fans about the Rings of Power adaptation. And they're like, oh, my God, they're, what?

The most bad faith of takes is, oh, they're just writing fan fiction or whatever. And there's a lot of quotes from Tolkien himself about how he welcomes collaborators, the like famous many-hand sort of letter that he wrote, etc. But something that's that I always like to bring up in those conversations is that Christopher Tolkien, wonderful man, hated the Peter Jackson movies and thought they were brainless action movies and that like that they had like completely dumbed down his dad's work. but what's true in terms of that adaptation from book to film a question that you keep bringing up, shadows of the past, which is, you know, when Gandalf and Frodo in, you know, bag end talking about everything that's to come, like, you know, and Sam eavesdropping out the window and stuff like that. Like, all of that is such a long lore dump in the book. And it works in the book, but instead Jackson peppered in, you know, into Moria.

like, okay, there's a giant tentacle monster in this pond outside, and you're going to go through that. And then we're going to talk about pity and all this other stuff. And that's what you've got to do. You got to let it. That's one of the skills is doling out the information in a way that makes sense in this form. And it was a challenge we had with, challenge we had with Thrones, too. I mean, there are, you know, George certainly writes arguably more cinematically, I suppose.

in the books than the professor Tolkien did. But still, there would be, you know, long 10-page exposition conversations, particularly in the first book, that we, you know, were obliged to sort of, okay, we'll take this thought and put it here and this thought and put it here. And, you know, with varying degrees of success. But, but that's the trick. Yeah, that's the challenge.

And I think, yeah, I think Jacks. And I should mention one more time, just real quick, I will say that the, in The Hobbit to give the Hobbit movie some, credit, the riddles in the dark sequence in that particular moment where Bilbo spares, Gollum's life is beautifully, beautifully dramatized in that movie with Martin Freeman and Andy Circus. It's really thrilling. I love that riddles in the dark sequence. It's great.

I will talk shit on the Hobbit trilogy all day long, but there's like at least two hours of great movie in there. There's a lot of beauty throughout. I just did a rewatch of them. And, you know, I think there's a... there's more to recommend them than I remember. There's a lot of really pretty terrific stuff. But that sequence is great.

All right. Number two, right. Well, this sort of relates to both of Mallory's choices. It is, and it's sort of a similar discussion in terms of a way to take a kernel of an idea from the text and use it in a different way. it is a passage from the very end of Return of the King that is used to great effect in a scene with a different character in Return of the King. The scene is a... I should say it really is a moment.

It's between Gandalf and Pippin during the siege of Gondor when Pippin is sure that death is about to come to them. I love this. And I love this. And I guess I'll read the movie version of it just to sort of, to sort of, I'll read both to sort of give you an idea of kind of what a brilliant piece of adaptation it is. In the film, Pippin says, I didn't think it would end this way. And Ian McKellen as Gandalf says, and mind you, a siege is going on.

Yeah. Like, like two feet away. Like there's a fucking, they're coming in. The troops are there. They've got swords in their hands. Sturm and drunk. And then, and then, again, this is brilliant filmmaking. it just, you know, we hone in on these two.

And Gandalf says, end. No, the journey doesn't end here. I'm going to try. I'm just going to read it and not go into my Ian McKellen impression. But he says, end, no. Yeah, yeah, you can do it. Do it. He's like, end.

No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we must all take. The gray rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it. Pepin says, what Gandalf? see what? White shores and beyond a far green country under a swift sunrise. And Pepin says, well, that isn't so bad.

No, no, it isn't. That is an incredible moment in the film. That was beautiful. And I believe the first, I don't remember, but I feel like if it isn't the first time, it's the first time I remember the end of the west theme popping in. the that Howard Shore introduces in the third film,

I think it might be the first time we hear it when he's talking about it. Now, the reason that I think happens is that scene is not in the book. In the book, he's thumbing through his Leipase paperback as I speak. I'm going to thumb through my Leipace paperback. I meant to have this ready in hand.

Ah, so in the book, it's when, and this is why it relates to the Grey Haven scene that you referenced earlier, Mallory. And this is from the book now. And the ship went out into the high sea and passed on into the west until at last on a night of rain. Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, and he has it, so he has this imagery is actually early in Fellowship of the Ring.

He has a dream at the house of Tom Bombadil, a sequence cut by Jackson. the gray rain curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise. That's the last we see of Frodo in the book. So Frodo's experience, the textbook, Tolkien's description of Frodo's final experience in this world as he passes into the undying lands, into Valenor, um, Jackson obviously can visualize that at the end. but he can't use the words unless he has some narrator doing it,

which would not work for the movies that he made. So brilliantly, he finds a way to work it in dramatically at a key moment in the film where you really need it as a viewer. And indeed, Pippin the character really needs it in that moment. And of course, it has caused a lot of debate because that's very specifically Frodo's experience passing into Valinor, and there's debate that rages on, is Valanor Heaven?

Is Valanor a place? Is it a metaphor for heaven? Is it a da-da-da-da-da. And what Gandalf is describing is something that we all are experiencing, but we all don't get to go to Valinor or Dewey and da-da-da-da, which is, of course, why, you know, these books endure because you can have these debates ad nauseum. But I just think that it's such a,

it's a brilliant piece of adaptation, a brilliant piece of acting, a wonderful moment, such an incredible moment that I assumed it was a scene from the book. I remember this happening when we were trying to bring it we were bringing in our quotes for the day because JD would usually supply one but often we would come in and have one or two. And I was trying to find that scene. And I kept trying to find the scene in the book. Like, where the fuck?

When does he tell Pippet about the far green country? I was like, God damn it. It's not in the book. I thought Jackson couldn't have made that up. I mean, no way. And then I remembered, oh, you know, figured out what the actual, what the actual thing is. But I think, you know, just as a as a as a as a meditate, as a thought about death and about, you know, I'm, I'm an atheist, but if I believed in heaven, I would hope it was that. Like, I would hope it was something that simple. I think that speaks to Tolkien as well. I mean, Tolkien was a man of faith, but not to get too deep into this stuff, but I find the idea of heaven terrifying. I thought the good place nailed it. Did you watch the good place?

Oh, yeah. Like, the idea that heaven, like, just total happiness for the rest of eternity sounds terrifying to me. Like, without the darkness, you have no frame of reference to be happy. It's just, I don't want to just be happy all the time, nor do I want to look down on the earth and see what I'm missing. Like, I find the, weirdly, I find the idea that if I die, I'm just done much more comforting. That's just me.

That said, if I did believe in heaven, the, the, the, this sort of perfect simplicity of a far green country, you know, just, just purity, just a pure, simple piece is so powerful. And again, to think about the times he was writing it and the upheaval that the world was going through. It's a big reason why these books and I think, and the films continue to be a great comfort to people.

people, you know. So yeah, great, great scene, great, great text and great execution of the text. I think it speaks also to sort of, as we were talking about earlier, Tolkien's like sort of magpie professorial approach to this story because the far green country makes Julia Artaire and Brian Cogman probably think about the undiscovered country, which is in Hamlet's locally to be or not to be right. This idea, or the Star Trek film. Or the six Star Trek movie. I was looking at the Far Green Country. There's a 2018 documentary called The Far Green Country, but I'm very surprised that there isn't like some great work of American fiction called The Far Green Country or something like that. But I, my number two is sort of similar. It's, it vibes with the rest of yours,

which is, this is actually, I mentioned him already, our pal Dave Gonzalez, uh, re-reads all the Tolkien books every year. So he has an even better grasp than I do, definitely on the text. And so I was asking him last night for suggestions. And he suggested this one scene from the Two Towers, from the film, that I was dubious of. But then I watched it. I was like, okay. So this is...

So from the film, not the book necessarily. This is from the film. This is El-Ront. Because Dave had some bad suggestions. This is a good suggestion. Elron. Wow. Bad suggestions.

Tough pod for Dave. I love. I love Dave. This was, this is Elron to Arwin. And he's talking about. Oh, this is a great scene. Oh. And I think oftentimes I get distracted by like how languidly Livt Tyler is lying or the velvets or the soundtrack that's like, ah, you know, or like the Elvon.

It is mine to do with what I choose. like my heart. But, I love her, by the way. I'm not dissing her at all. Me too. I know this is the movie changed, but if you want him,

come and claim him is like... Man, that's shit's awesome. Like, I'll say it. I could have used more. I like the impulse bringing her to Helms Deep. Sorry. Sorry, guys. I like it.

Yeah. She was supposed to be at Helms Deep. She got cut. Also, Miranda Otto. Say, I went to fight in the, like, catacombs of, Elm's Deep and that was also cut. So, you know, I'm excited to see Galadriel

cut some people down to size in this new show. Anyway, so this is Elrond talking to his daughter, Arwen, half Elvin, right? They're, who's in love with Erdogan who has an extended life, right? But he's still...

That's still mortal. I choose immortal life. He says, if Erigorn survives this war, you will still be parted. I don't have a Hugo weaving impression. You will still be parted. If Saran is defeated and Aragon made king and all that you hope for comes true, you will still have to taste the bitterness of mortality. Whether by the sword or the slow decay of time, Aragorn will die.

And there will be no comfort for you, no comfort to ease the pain of his passing. He will come to death, an image of the splendor of the kings of men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world. But you, my daughter, you will linger on in darkness and in doubt, as nightfall in winter that comes without a star, who you will. will dwell bound to your grief under the fading trees until all the world has changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent. Great pep talk from dad. Thanks dad. Right. So good though. That's just, that is, that is terrific. Yeah. And it speaks to, you know, something that Brian, you and I have

talked about off pod and Mallory and I've talked about a little bit is this idea of this story as an elf forward story. The Rings of Power is a really elf-led story with Galadriel as our central figure, whereas both the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are sort of Hobbit forward stories, and there are Hobbit-like creatures, the Harfoots, in Rings of Power, but this is really like an elf point of view. Some of the challenges of that, like what the experience of elves are so different from the experience of men, the long lives you lead, the way in which living so long, I mean, if you're not familiar with elf texts, maybe you're familiar with the vampire fatigue of being immortal, but the like,

what the toll it takes on you for living so long, seeing so much, watching people forget the things that you remember, and the dangers of loving something, and not even necessarily romantic love, though we know we have an elf and a human sort of Starcroft love story in Rings of Power. that's in all the promo. That's a thing that exists. And that's a thing that Tolkien was interested in repeating. Yeah. Throughout his stories.

But falling in love romantically, but also just falling and loving, how do the elves relate to the people with the shorter life? How do you love something so fragile, so temporary, so fleeting? How do you make that choice? Or do you choose to hold yourself at a remove? how do you interact with all that? I think that's such an interesting concept that, you know, in some of the critiques I have encountered of the Jackson film, I love the Jackson films as established. Some of the critiques I've seen from the diehard Tolkien fans is that like they didn't feel

like the difference between the elves and the humans was underlined enough in terms of their life experience, that the elves just seem like slightly more haughtier, more imperious humans. And I think that is something to do with a sort of like humanizing of Legolas or whatever to make like the Legolas Skimli stuff more fun. But, um, but I'm interested in what this series can explore in terms of that different, that very different life experience of outliving everything around you and watching it die and be reporting. And what does that do to your point of view? And what does that do to your idea of death and mortality and, and all of that is sort of kicked into it? And how many gorgeous velvet gowns and beautiful, you know, divan, you know,

can someone lie on? I have a lot of questions. So, yeah. Yeah, I will table my reaction to your perfect pick because it relates to my final one. So I'll just, in the interest of time, I'll sort of save my elf thoughts for that. I love it, Joe. But you're absolutely right. It's great. It's a great scene. It's a great scene. And I wouldn't have thought of it. It's forgotten about it until you just said it. I was like, oh, yeah, that's awesome. Shout out Dave Gonzalez. And I think also, as it pertains, is for thinking about Rings of Power, as it pertains to the character of Elrond, who were meeting at a more heart-open time of his life. You know, his heart is more open to the world, maybe, than it is later when he's seen so much.

When he's seen Isilder's choice, like all this other stuff, he's still like a bit, a bit. He's old, but he's younger. Yeah, we're thousands of years prior to the events of the third age that are depicted in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. and it was definitely an exciting and daunting task to think about, okay, yes, they live for thousands of years, and up until this point, they've lived quite a long time, but, you know, where would they be in terms of their, yeah, in terms of their worldview and in terms of their manner and in terms of their, how, how, you know, their own, their own power, so, and abilities and all of that sort of thing. So that was, that's one, another reason to justify the series existence is that you're going to see, you'll see these characters and they'll be the characters that you love, but they're in a different phase of their life. So it can be, it can be like seeing them new. I love it. That's why I love a prequel.

I'm going to, not everyone does, but I just, I got to say, I just love a prequel. I do. In the right circumstances, they can be very effective. I want to better understand how characters came to, to inhabit the heads. space in which we first got to meet them. Joe, that makes me think a little bit of, it's a less cruel version, but it makes me think a bit of our pals, Loki and Thor, you know, say goodbye. This day the next, 100 years, it's nothing. It's a heartbeat. You'll never be ready. And like, I, the reason that I love that Elrond seen in two towers and the response to it is

because it connects to, I think, exactly what Brian was just saying about the good place and and about this idea of this sprawling forever, you know, parameters, finite start and endpoints, actually can help you find meaning. And the fact that that Aragorn is going to die does not mean that that's not a life worth living. It means that it's all the more essential to hang on to it right then in that moment there and to fight for it. So I love that. Because of it. Because of events.

All right. We are downtown number one. I'm going to go first just because mine is quick and I'm going to get out of the way. And then I'm going to hear the more profound things you have to say. Mine is maybe a little silly. Lord of the Rings is also a little silly. Yeah. Oh, it's often very silly, which is what's wonderful.

Brian brought up a pal's intrigue. And I remember talking to J.D. and Patrick about the show. and I was like talking about, I was talking about Thrones and I was like, you know, something about will people miss a palis and trig? And they're like, Joanna, do you forget that there's definitely palace intrigue all over the place in Lord of the Rings? And I was like, oh, yeah. So mine is also from the two towers. And this is Gandalf walking in to see Theoden. and my best friend in the whole world,

Graham a worm tongue walks up. And he goes, you know, Theodin's like what's going on, right? All befuddled and shriveled and pale. Just question my league. Late is the hour in which this conjure chooses to appear. Last spell, I name him, ill news is an ill guess. And Geyl says, be silent.

Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. I have not passed through fire and death. To bandy crooked words with a witless worm. So good. And then he gets his staff out and Grimmy goes, Staff, I told you not to take the wizard staff. And Gettle says, Thaidan, son of Thengel, too long have you sat in the shadows?

Harkin to me, I release him from the spell. And then Sauramon speaking through Thayden goes, You have no power here. Which is one of my all-time favorite line reads of anything ever. And then Bernard Hill eventually emerges from the shriveled crassiness to the more robust. The beautiful Rohan theme playing. Yeah, exactly.

But it's great. So, yeah, Pals and Drink, baby. Yeah, it's great. Grima Wormtong, big fan. Big fan of Green Wormtongue. Every time I see him, I just immediately crave a Deadwood rewatch. Yeah, right? Yeah, not a one floor of the cookies nest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great actor. Brad Dorff. Brad Dorff is so good in that role. And I just love, I love all of that. I love exactly this, this corruption that comes to Rohan. And then Theodin as a figure going forward is not a holy, you know, where was Gondor. Love Pelican, that's all.

It's nothing profound. I'm not going to cry about it. I just love it. You have no, bye. Well, you hit on something, though, that I think was the sort of secret weapon of Jackson doing these movies. and I think I alluded to it earlier when I overheard some of my classmates debating whether or not he was the right choice.

I mean, he was a director of horror and thrillers up until this point. Yeah. You know? I mean, he did the frighteners and meet the feebles and dead alive and these are horror movies. And he brings a horror thriller director's sensibility to this whole thing.

I mean, he adds this kind of incredible, these proper jump scares. And, you know, like when Thea did, Theodin is our throne. Like, that's, that's, that's horror makeup, you know? I mean, there's, even, even, is it secret, is it safe, is ratcheted up to a sort of thriller level and the pacing, the pacing of those exposition scenes in the beginning of Fellowship of the Ring, which, you know, if you watch the Bakshi movie, a movie that I

quite like, it's so languid and, and, and frankly, even in the book, they stop at Tom Bombaddles for a while. And it's like, guys, you got, you're on a mission here, aren't you? He brought a real kind of thrillers pace. pacing to the film that I think was key, you know, in its success. And that scene is a perfect example of that, you know. Yeah. Are you frightened?

No, nearly frightened enough. Yeah, well, the first trailer. The first trailer emphasized the thriller elements. Because I don't think they knew how to market it at first. I remember that first teaser trailer, Lord of the Rings, was all about the Nazgul, running, scary, scary. it ended with that line, not nearly frightened enough. And you would never have actually known if you hadn't read the books that this was actually a big sword and sorcery at epic.

It was marketed as from the guy that made the frighteners, you know. So. All right. I'm going to let Brian go last because he's our guest. So Mallory Rubin, what's your number one? Perhaps predictably. I've picked number one about the power of stories. I can't help it.

And I won't apologize. Why do you keep qualifying your awesome picks? These are recurring bits, you know? Here's my pick. It's from the two towers. It is a moment that I adore and cherish and will never tire of rewatching until I am in the ground

that the hobbits love to till. It is, Sam, telling Frodo about the power of the stories that last there in Asgileth. This is, of course, cut with shots and snippets of the ends at Eisengard. Of course, these are the final decisive victorious moments at Helms Deep, and it is all here together in meshed, stitched together on this storytelling tapestry.

Sam says, by rights, we shouldn't even be here, but we are. It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered. of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come and when the sun shines, it'll shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you that meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why I've always loved that line so much. But I think Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back. Only they didn't. They kept going because they were holding on to something. What are we holding on to, Sam? That there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo. And it's worth fighting for. Now, I think that that at the dawn here of a new tale can apply to all of the characters who we are about to form new bonds with.

watch, embark on their own journeys and their own quests and their own challenges and their own crucial defining decisions. But I think also the reason I pick this is for like the meta meaning and quality, the fact that this is one of these great stories for us. It is one that we understand, even before we really were able to understand why it had gripped us so fully. And I think it's just like getting emotional. So just special thing that I'm really grateful for that we get to like fall back into this world together. That's great. Yeah.

Nothing to add to that. That's beautiful. It's another passage oft cited in the room. Mallory, you left out one of the chief characters, Sam Wise and Brave. I want to hear more about Sam. I want to hear more about Sam. Something that I've loved, there's this, I remember I was an author of years ago where this author was talking about, who was.

since been canceled, so let's maybe not like hold his world as gospel, but he was talking about how, like, young women watching Lord of the Rings start as Legolas girls and they become like Aragorn women. And I was like, yeah, but what I've seen recently is, yeah, but there's one more step, which is Samwise, Samwise, Babes. I feel like it's a Legalast Aragon to Samwise journey. I mean, that's the great, and that's, yeah, that's the great trick of the book. I mean, he's the ultimate hero of the whole story. He's it. He's it.

I can carry you. Oh, God. You know. Yeah. Sean Astin just does not get enough credit for what he does, I think, in those movies. Oh, yeah. No, because in lesser hands, that role could be insufferable. And he, you could fall into a trap that, and he doesn't.

He's wonderful. He's wonderful. Beautiful pick, Mallory. I'm always blubbering through that sequence. Absolutely. And I leave that movie drained and then ready to go to one. This is why you all need. That's why you need to listen to the musical because there's a great song that's based on this scene called now.

I'm actually, okay, this is not my actual pick, but my joke pick is the nine and a half YouTube montage of all the scenes from the gigantic most expensive musical in history of the, West End, Bomb, Lord of the Rings, the musical, which is actually pretty good. Have you ever listened to it? I'm 100% doing it immediately after. I can't wait. Here's the thing. Here's the thing about the musical. This is a tangent.

Forgive me. Because I get a lot of shit for this. But the musical is as A.R. R. Raman did the music for it, you know. And it's, I say it's a musical. It's actually not. It was a, I never saw it. But if you listen to it, as far as I can tell, it's a play with

music. All the music is either elfin stuff that's sort of, or songs like of the Shire. Like, like the big, the big Hobbit song is when they're at the prancing pony in and they sing the cat in the moon. Like, they're singing a song in the story. There's, there's only one, there's only one song in the entire musical that is a soliloquy or recitative kind of musical. And it's, of course, Ghalom's song because he is talking to himself out loud. Wow. I genuinely cannot wait for Gulles. Oh, it's fucking good. And the song just referencing, though, is called Now and for Always.

And it is, it's also the closest any of the characters come to sort of singing a musical song. But it's, it's, that they're doing it as if telling tales to keep each other, each other's spirits off. But the content of that, the content of that scene comes out through the song. It's actually a pretty beautiful show. It distills the whole thing into three and a half hours. So that's probably was tough. I have no idea how it was on stage. but I listen to the music a lot.

I think it's really good. Most of it's in Elvish. It's on the list. But it's crazy. If you look at the YouTube video, it's fucking nuts because they couldn't be anything like the movies. So the design elements are out there,

like really crazy. And Laflori and like Galadriel's on like these fucking, like, she's coming down from the, from the wings in these, on these like long ropes and is like doing somersaults and shit. I mean, it's trippy as fuck. I don't know, man. I want to hear back from y'all after you listen to it.

Okay. Actually, it's much better. It's much better than it gets credit for. And it was a huge bomb. I can't wait to check this out. Soundtracks easily available, but try to find that, once you listen to try to find that little YouTube clip. Can't wait to experience Lord of the Rings, turn off the dark. Yeah, yeah, but see, it's got that reputation.

I actually think it's pretty good. Anyway, you know me, I like musicals. Okay, my number one is from both the book and the film Fellowship of the Ring, the Mirror of Galadriel. I almost picked this. Hell yes. I'm so glad. Hell yes. I was like, I can't believe we're going to finish this and not do the scene.

Yeah, we sort of had to leave off my list. And why do I do it? Well, without giving too much away about the content of the show, Galadriel is a very important figure in Little of the Rings of the Rings of Power. the, indeed, she was the cornerstone of, in many ways, of the initial pitch that J.D. and Patrick gave me. And Morphid Clark is going to be huge, going to be a huge fucking star. She's just, I mean, she already is a very well-regarded actor, but this is going to make her, to put her in the stratosphere. She's absolutely fantastic. And absolutely, I mean, as I alluded to before, the character is in a different phase of her life. Um, so she is in, in many ways, not the Galadriel we, we know yet. Um, but, uh, but aside from that, she, she makes the role very much her own, you know, um, um, uh, but, but, but also in a,

but also honors Blanchette's performance at the same time. It's kind of a magic trick, what she does. Um, and, uh, this chapter, you know, is, is a pivotal one in, in the book where, where, you know, the Fellowship is taking refuge in Lothlorian, and Galadriel takes Frodo aside and has him look in her in the mirror and see a vision, visions of the world of what Sauron will inflict upon the world should Frodo not complete his mission. It's the only, in the film, it's the only glimpse we have of the scouring of the shire. In the film, it's a, it's a, what if Saron takes over scouring the shire. And again, it really, when you're thinking about it in the context of the time that Tolkien wrote it, it makes that scene all the more kind of powerful.

The fact that the weight of the world is on this boy's shoulders. But the weight of the world was on all our boys and girls of the armed forces soldiers at that time, you know, in a way that none of us can really understand. And that sequence is, that part of it's very moving. and then it ends, of course, with him, you know, offering her the ring. I'll give it to you. I'll give it to you. Take it. I'll give it to you.

And she basically, you know, says, oh, you offer it to me freely. And she essentially talks about what she would do with it. If she had it, she would be a great queen. She would be, you know, not terrible and dark. But then the text shifts. And this is straight out of the book where it goes from, I would be a good queen to all would love me. and it becomes this sort of terrifying vision of absolute power, even in the greatest of hands.

This is what I thought of when you were talking about the horror elements earlier, the secret. Oh, well, and that, yes. When it goes like photo negative. And what Jackson brings to it, which I think he interpolates from the text, but it's not explicitly in the original text, is that she becomes this terrible, frightening entity. And then she comes down and it all settles down. and she says, I pass the test, I will diminish and go into the Western Remain Galadriel.

That's a vitally important moment because it really brings home. I mean, earlier in the book and film Gandalf says, don't tempt me with the ring Frodo and it says a version of what she says. But because at that point, Galadriel is the most powerful, most elemental example of elfdom on on earth at that point in history. The idea of what the ring can do to even that kind of, and in fact, indeed, she's the last person who should have it, because it needs to be with Frodo.

That is such a, that's a real pivot point for the story and for the film and for Frodo's understanding of what he has to do and the idea that the fellowship is going to break and he's going to be out on his own. And it's so brilliantly adapted. Again, Jackson brings those horror elements. And if you want to see how the scene could just not land at all, watch the Baxi version, the animated version, which again, a movie I like, but in that version,

she's like, you would offer it to me freely. Oh, I would be good if I had the ring. And you're watching it, you're like, Jesus. Talk about a misread. She's like, I thought I passed the test and I shall remain gladrored. Again, I like that movie a lot. I've watched a lot.

There's a ton of beauty in that movie and brilliance, but that scene is not one of them. So anyway, I chose it because it's a great sequence. But in terms of the elfdom of it all, it was a lot of conversation in the room about, you know, how do we dramatize these characters? You know, we, this is a more, it's certainly, and I should say, the show is an ensemble show,

and we have lots of leads, you know, much like Thrones. anchoring their own storylines, but it's certainly much more so than the books, Gever could be, has more of an elf point of view in certain sections. And how do you dramatize that?

How do you craft the way they speak, how they are with each other, as opposed to when they're bumping up against other cultures, how are they here when they're at their height? I mean, the thing to remember is in the third age, they are diminishing. I mean, you know, Rivendell and Lothloy

are sort of the last, you know, vestiges of it, and, and they're all, they're going, they're going to paradise here at a minute. When we open with things of power, it's, it's when they're really at their height in many ways. So it was a tremendous, a lot of interesting discussion and a tremendous challenge for the writers and for the actors. And I will say, and I, again, brilliantly, I fucked off before I had to actually deal with it and write any of the scripts. So I'm happy to report that the writers

Solved that problem brilliantly And the elf scenes do have a different feeling And the dialogue does have a different cadence And a different rhythm And yet they seem like relatable Beings They don't just seem like weird aloof You know, not as fun humans

They have their own kind of vibe and I think the writers also, J.D. and Patrick and all the writers found interesting ways to bump the elf characters up against different cultures, much as Tolkien does in the books. So, and the actors, you know, Morfid Rob Arameo, who Thrones fans will know is young Ned in the flashbacks. He plays Al-Rond. Ben Walker, my friend from school, who I mentioned. Yeah, shout out to our joy. they're all wonderful and they and they really they really tow that line between quasi immortal being to human you know because if they're completely aloof and completely impenetrable it's it's you can't relate at all and then and i think the balance is struck beautifully um in this and elf culture is beautifully realized musically i should i should shout out

bear mccrary if you haven't i mean the score to this is world class. It is, it exceeded every expectation I could have possibly had. I can't stop listening to it. It's already streaming. It's a perfect kind of passing quite literally of the baton

from Shore to, to, McCrary and Howard Shore wrote the main title theme, which is a lovely, a lovely bridge. But my God, this, this score and all the, all the, um, elvish songs and,

um, the, and I'm someone who loves character themes. We did it on Thrones, and he came up with, like, 17 or 18, like, distinct world and character themes that are just incredible. And it's just, it's phenomenal. So, um, now I want to go watch Battlestar Galactica. Oh, yeah. I mean, and his previous work obviously speaks for itself, but man, this is, this is, this is next level in my view. And, yeah, I think, um, the, the Elfdom stuff is, is, is, was a fascinating challenge and, and a really rewarding one, I think, for the show. And, um,

This doesn't really relate to this scene, but it does. I did want to bring up one theme of Tolkien's that I personally respond to. And, you know, as you said, there's been a few people online who clearly just they think Lord of the Rings is about one thing that they've decided it's about. And any other of its many themes that you bring up, you know, and I got into a little exchange at one point before I reminded myself, I can't do that. But, but. Brian, we want you to stay on. Twitter. So like, navigate Twitter in a way that you enjoy.

The mute function. I didn't have the mute function during most of Game of Thrones. And boy, it would have helped my lifestyle. And my sanity. But no, the reason I bring this up is a theme of Lord of the Rings that is very important to me and that I think rings through in the films. And I absolutely certainly think rings through in the show is this idea of, and it's a as old as stories themselves,

but these disparate cultures and subgroups of beings coming out of their comfort zones and coming together for whatever a purpose. It was certainly something that was an element of Game of Thrones that I personally latched on to. You mentioned the Night of the Seven Kingdoms earlier, and I only realized when I was working,

on Lord of the Rings that that was my Lord of the Rings episode, which I didn't, and I was not conscious of that, but it absolutely is. I mean, that's, you know, that's, that's the episode of Thrones where all of these various factions kind of come together, sit by the fire, you know, share, in the case of the people out of the fire, they're sharing a drink, but then you're cutting to, you know, Sonsa and Theon having soup and bread and, um, Aria and the hound up and Berwick up on the ramparts. And, and, and, and, uh, Padrick, uniting it all with a song. And we didn't do a lot of songs on Thrones.

There's a lot of songs in the books. We were very judicious about how we use them on the show. And, um, and when I wrote that into the script, I was like, I, I wonder if I'm going to get it in. I wonder if, if, if, if, if, if it'll be like, hmm, song. It's not, not. And, you know, to my delight, um, the guys, uh, the guys, uh, of course, Captain In, and it's a very effective moment. But that's my, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, as Lord of the Rings as, as, as, as Thrones.

You know, I don't say this as a, as a pat on the back. I'm just saying, I was sort of channeling. And, and I should say, to give George credit, it, it's also very George. It's very George. It's very Song of Ice and Fire. And George would be the first to say, song of ice and fire is very Lord of the Rings and its DNA. So it all, we're all communicating here. But, um, anyway, the idea of these.

various cultures with their grudges and their suspicions and their baggage, bumping up against each other, and what that means for the world, good or ill, is an incredible theme throughout Lord of the Rings. And it definitely is what is most exciting, one of the most exciting things to me about the series. And again, without getting into too many details, but that, but those,

those cultures and their depiction and their relation to each other comes about, you know, relatively quickly in some cases on the show. And when that really locks in, that's when I'm like, oh, yeah, this is, this really is feeling like Lord of the Rings, if that makes sense. I'm so excited. I just started crying when you talk about the Ansonza having stew. Oh, Deion and Sansa. I rewatch that scene the other day.

I rewatch the Sonsa hugging Theon. from your episode and scene for some reason. And Dineris giving them like side eye. They had a longer scene. They had a longer scene that I wrote in that episode. And I ended up cutting it. I never even turned it in. Because it didn't seem necessary.

It seemed, I've always said, my first draft of that episode was essentially a recap show where characters were like talking about stuff that we'd all watched or downloading other characters on what had happened. It was one that I needed to get out. It was a scene that I wrote where they were talking about stuff that happened. And I didn't ever turn it in. Sometimes wonder if I should have.

Brian, that's a perfect episode of television. It ended up just being for me that scene. But I think it's embodied in the hug and the shot of them eating together. And also, when you have Alfie and Sophie, when you have Alfie and Sophie, you really don't need a lot of bullshit dialogue. They can give you what you need in a couple of looks. So. Sorry. We're sorry.

We went into the Game of Thrones there at the end. I apologize. Should we sing Jenny of Goldstones together? Yeah, I wish I could say I wrote the rest of those lyrics. That was, I think that was Dan. That was Dan. Yeah. You deprived me of those ass cap fees.

I get them for Shereen song, though. That's a nice little chunk of change every once in a while. You told me also that Dan wrote, just to fact check myself, something I said recently. You told me that Dan wrote the poem that. Tyrion and Jora recite and when they're sailing through old Valeria.

Yes, he did write that poem. Yeah, again, my episode and I, I, but yeah. So shout out to Dan Wise. Yeah, in my original draft, they were just sort of telling the story to each other.

And then he did a pass on it where he had, where yeah, where he had that, that epic poem and it's just great. Yeah. So good.

All right. Well, we did it. Mostly rings a Little side thrones along with it. Brian Cochman, thank you so much for being here to talk to us. Oh, my pleasure. This was so much fun. Thank you, Brian. So much fun.

This was amazing. I'm pleased you both like what you've seen of the show. I do, too. I'm excited to see more of it as a fan. Same. I'm rings of power's biggest fans. And I'm just happy to have played even a small part in its earliest days. I'm very proud about that.

You should be. Mallory and I are really excited to cover the series week by week. We'll be back at the end of every week to talk about the latest Rings of Power episode. Two episodes are dropping next week. So we will do, we will do a sort of feature

length discussing and then week by week from then on. We'll also as I mentioned, of course, be here talking about House of the Dragon, the Midnight Boys will be here doing their thing. There will probably be more Shehulk and then before you know what it's indoor time. So happy Hot Nerd Autumn to everyone.

listening. Thank you again to Brian Cogman. This episode was produced by Carlos Jeroboga. Thanks, of course, to join me a dinner on always for being incredible on all of our socials. And to our June and Renco Paul for his additional production work, Mallory Rubin. My queen also love you in despair. I'll see you soon. And have a great weekend, everyone. Bye. Pay off your home. Travel for life. A Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly Big Board Buckslot Slot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yamava Resort and Casino and San Manuel is giving one person

a $1.6 million dream package. The biggest prize in Yamava's history. Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizes and secure a spot in the finale May 29th. Don't pass go and own it all. Only at Yamava, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at yamava.com must be 21-20. Please gamble responsibly.

Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro. Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on allolotion.

You're welcome. Columbia, engineered for whatever.