House of R - ‘The Penguin’ Episodes 5-7 Superlatives | House of R

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

It's time to sip some orange wine! Mal and Jo rejoin to discuss the latest batch of 'The Penguin' episodes before the season finale and hand out their superlatives. Favorite Episode (14:30) Favorite Scene (20:00) Favorite Oz and Sofia Quotes (35:25) Most Compelling Character of This Stretch (40:00) Character You Wish We’d Gotten to Spend More Time With (53:48) Most Illuminating Flashback (or Trip Down Memory Lane) (1:00:40) Most Disturbing Moment (1:07:57) Most Captivating Location (1:12:47) Favorite Musical Moment (1:17:48) Fit Lord/Wig Watch (1:19:28) Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Senior Producer: Steve Ahlman Video Editor: Stefano Sanchez Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal, T Cruz, John Richter, and Aleya Zenieris Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dutton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Colehouser returned, and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch, willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch starring Colehouser, Kelly Riley,

Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. This episode is brought to you by Borris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means pointing your whole day around it. Presenting the friar's turkey breast only from Borishead. The backyard tradition now available behind the counter.

Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftmanship behind every bite. Borershead committed to craft since 1905. Your mother is a very interesting woman, Oz. I know what my mother is. She helped me realize a few things. I keep trying on all these different faces, but none of them feel quite right. Hey, what the fuck is going on?

And it's the same for you and me. Of course you do. Because this game was made for men like you, like my father. Same winners, same losers. to why everyone expected me to die and welcome. No one even considered that I might learn something there, how to play new games. I left your present.

Did you find it yet? Greetings. And welcome to House of Arr, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Crown Point, but also back into the House of Ar. joining me today, observing that this Antinucci's does not look like it traveled well. It's Joanna Robinson.

Mallory Rubin, what a joy to be here with you on this not at all nausea-inducing day. That is Election Day, 2024. So excited to be here with you. So excited to talk about The Penguin. You're the best. Joe. Mal. We are here to chat about the Penguin, specifically, episode.

five, six, and seven. We're doing a little catch-up pod today. We'll be issuing our superlatives for the latest batch of episodes. But before we ask Vic, if he's a sneakerhead now, so quick programming reminders. Over on the ringerverse. A mammoth button mash is coming on Friday on a number of different games,

including your new publicly declared passion, Mario and Luigi Brothership. Are you excited? Yeah. You still as excited for this as you've been? The Mario Mario brothers? Yes, I love them. Saturday. Junior Mints get ready. Mint Edition on Arcane, Season 2, Part 1, not to overstate it, but this is a pod three years in the making. Correct. Tune in. No fewer than one gajillion emails. When are you guys covering Arcane? Here we go. I cannot wait for this. I cannot wait to watch Arcane and I cannot wait to listen to the pot. Here on the House of R, we will be back with you at the end of the week for a podcast. Let's just take a peek behind the curtain. We are hesitant to say exactly what it is just in case it falls through. No matter what, though, we will have something fun for you at the end of the week.

We will have an episode. Yes. And then we will be back at the top of next week to chat about the penguin finale. Yes. Wonderful stuff. exciting. You can watch full episodes of this podcast, House of R. And you can watch full episodes, video podcasts, of Midnight Boys, Pew, Pew, on on Spotify and on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. So make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel if you haven't yet. Joe, how can everybody follow along in addition to that? Wow, thrilled and honored and just genuinely touched that you asked me this and also that you covered the video part because you know I always messed it up.

So thank you, Malay Rubin. Listen, why don't you just follow the pod? That might be a good thing. Like just subscribe to the pod maybe on your pod catcher of choice, hopefully Spotify, but whatever you prefer, subscribe to Hasavar, subscribe to the Ringervverse. You can follow us on social. We are on X. We are on Instagram.

We are on TikTok. There's a Facebook group. Did you just say X? Have they gotten you? No, I go back and forth. It's a stressful day. Don't grow up. All right.

All right. I support you. I support you. I love you and I support you. Thank you. I also want to say, I don't usually, we don't usually sort of like back promote. But I do want to say if you haven't a chance to watch or listen to our Agatha all along finale podcast,

The showrunner Jack Schaefer just was so generous with her time and with her answers for us. And we just had a wonderful conversation with her that I think is just really worth listening to or watching if you've got a couple hours to spare. The interview itself is not a couple hours. The podcast is. That was so fun. I absolutely loved that. I love that part. Well, that season of television, we love talking about it with you.

I know. I'm really sad that it's over. But here we are in The Penguin. So, okay. So I said all of that stuff. And then also what about Pobbson Dragons at gmail.com? Indeed. That's our email address.

And you can always email us about anything you so choose. People are still signing it with their pickle, signing it with their Apple choices, signing it in Amaria. Like we're still getting all the greatest hits are happening in the inbox all the time. So thank you so much for your emails. Keep them coming as we look forward to things like Silo, Doom Prophecy, all. the stuff that's on the horizon that we're really excited about. Or on the penguin finale thoughts, we would love to hear them when you get a chance to see that episode. Craven the hunter. Craven the hunter. Gladiator. How about let's compromise. Gladiator. Yeah.

Thighs o'clock. All right. Last programming reminder, you know what it is. It's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot points from the penguin. every episode of the penguin that's aired to this point. We'll be talking a lot about five, six, and seven. But if it's happened this season, it might come up today. If it happened in the Batman, it might come up today. If it happened in DC Comics, it might come up today. It's entirely possible.

Okay. Joe, the city hall fucks are sitting in some fancy private club drinking orange wine. Oz with the orange wine shot. That really got me. I love an orange wine. Let me say that. Anyway, no orange wine for us right now, just coffee and water. True.

some bubbly for you, I think. No free ads. Let's pod. Let's begin, as always, with the opening snapshot. We are going to chat about episode five, homecoming, episode six, gold summit, and episode seven, top hat. Just like for the first pod that we did on the penguin, our mid-season catch-up, we have ten awards coming shortly, ten superlatives.

There are some repeat superlative categories. There are some new ones. before we get to them. Yeah. Quick overall impressions of this stretch of the penguin. What did you make of five, six, and seven? I thought we both agreed that three and four were just like extremely wonderful episodes of television. And so I think I felt a little bit of a dip in this stretch.

I thought seven was quite strong. You and I think I agree on that. But I did think five and six felt like a little bit of a dip for me, but not like a significant dip. But my sort of strongest takeaway, putting all this together, thinking about the episodes, putting together our superlatives, as I was like, all my candidates for favorite scenes, all my candidates for, you know, favorite character moment or like fashion moment. It was all Sophia stuff. Oh, interesting. And so, like, I think not only is Chrisa Milliani absolutely crushing it, I just think at least in this stretch, the writers seemed much, have much. more to say about, despite the main flashback centering on Oz, much more to say about

Sophia and who she is and what's on her mind. I just think all of that stuff was executed more successfully. And there's just like a few, a number of key Sophia and another scene partner conversations that really stood out to me in these episodes. And I could not say necessarily the same thing for Oz. And I say this as genuinely the world's biggest Colin Farrell thing. Man. Like I love Colin Farrell. Same. And I have thought that some of the previous episodes did a better job of like keeping Oz a very compelling figure. But this was like a felt a little muddled to me.

And I think especially episode five felt especially sort of directionless in sharp relief with the laser focus of three and four on specific characters. Five just felt sort of like leftovers. And leftovers can be quite delicious. they're maybe not as good as a day of fresh meals. So, yeah, I really liked episode seven, and we'll talk about finale anticipation in a second, but where were you on five through seven? I have enjoyed the show the entire way. So I liked this batch as well.

I agree with you on five. That was probably the episode of the season that compelled me the least so far. I also agree that nothing in this run of episodes matched three and four, For me, yeah. I also agree with you that everything about Sophia is just like God tier right now. Yeah. Truly tremendous. And so the recalibration around Oz versus Sophia as like the central thrust that's driving

this season is very interesting to me. I think the one thing we're not aligned on is that I actually really enjoyed these episodes from the Oz perspective. So I'm now anticipating in a way that will be fun that we maybe have some different picks coming for our categories, maybe more variants than we had in the mid-season pot. So that'll be nice. What is your finale anticipation? We've only got one left.

We're seven through. We have eight remaining. Are you looking forward to it? Do you think they're going to be able to pull it off? What feels most keen to you at this moment in time heading into the final installment? Had you asked me near hours ago, my answer would have been different. But right before we started recording, our beloved Stephen Oliver, who has already seen the finale episode, and I have not told me that he thought it was tremendous

and that they really, like, stuck the landing and had a wonderful finale and it just, like, really was solid. So now I'm just like, very excited. I was just like, I was just a little nervous because this just felt, it felt like we were on like slight downward trend in the season or just like a little bit, but as often the case in like the middle of a season can feel a little softer than the beginning of the end. So if the finale is gangbusters, as Stephen has promised me on his life and soul, then, you know, I'm excited. I'm very excited. What about you? Yeah. Yeah, I'm hyped. I think that because in the opening four, the first two were less successful in our minds than three and four, the fact that five gripped me a little bit less didn't really

throw me all that much because it felt like such an active reset in terms of what the kind of kind of just like central focus of the character dynamic was going to be and the conflict was going to be. So because I felt really positive about episode seven, I now am like, okay, maybe we're on another upswing like we were at the end of the first half. I'm really looking forward to the finale. I feel genuinely very, very worried, not about the show doing a good Yeah, but about like basically every character. The level of tension is so high. Yeah.

For so many people that I like that. I like going in with my nerves on edge and in a way that makes it feel like I have invested in the characters to this point. I mean, especially since we don't know anything about the future. Like this is a limited series, right? And like, yeah, who knows what we're getting from here with these characters? Everything we know about what's going on at DC right now is that like James Gunn is sort of like actively quashing Matt Reeves project. So like this might be it. And so, you know, you think of something like Colin Farrell is a penguin and you're like, well, he has to live because the show's called

the penguin. Well, not if it's like a limited series. And we're getting maybe one more Batman movie from Matt Reeves in this world and that's it. Like, you know, so yeah, everything's, everything's on the line. And that's exciting. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound terseptitide may be able to help. help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used with other terseptide containing products or any GLP1 receptor agonist medicine. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles.

Don't take if allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth

control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit zepbounds.lily.com. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbounds terseptide may be to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Zepound contains terseptide and should not be used

with other gerzebitide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take up allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain

or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas syndrome. or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99 or visit Zepbounds.lily.com. This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market.

Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, Market Peach, Apricot, Rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with Yuzhou. Yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items.

Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Pleased to be. So, yeah. Should we go to our subpriladas? Let's do it. Let's do it. Steve, can you set the mood for us?

What fuck? Oh, Jesus Christ. You're supposed to destroy me, Sal? You know, show me what a big man you are. What a fucking big man you are? Huh? I got you. I fucking got you.

You filthy, stupid prick. Fuck you. Try to steal from me. Try to take what's mine, what I built. What you say? I didn't hear you. Say it again. I didn't think so.

I won. You know, awards. You know what Oz would bring to an awards rundown after hearing that. It felt like the right way to enter into this shared exercise. size. All right, Joe, we are going to begin with the same category we started with in our midseason pod. Favorite episode. We've both already said episode seven, top hat. Yeah. Why? I think it's not just, there's the really juicy flashback stuff for Oz, the revelation about what happened with his brothers, a tremendous performance from this kid playing young Oz.

We both really, really like him. So good. I also just loved him in the little inside the episode listening to him, analyze Oz. It's like, give him this kid a podcast. Let's go. Strong theater kid energy off that kid, and I love it. Also, great stuff from the young woman playing younger Francis, I thought. So, like, just really good flashback stuff. But then also incredible Sophia stuff in this episode. And a little less Victor.

Like, Victor has been a little under certain. Well, no, actually, I was not sure. He had big stuff happening in the stretch of the episode. So, yeah, episode seven. Just like our two leads had some like juicy revelatory moments. Sal Maroni goes out like an absolute chump, which I was a little dissatisfied by, but then that clip you just played of like Oz's reaction to like, this is it, this is what winning feels like feels so empty.

I thought was really effective. So yeah. This was a very tense, very tight. penultimate episode. This is the official runtime is 47 minutes and that includes the previously on the credits, like all that. So this was easily the shortest episode in season, I think.

And much like Sophia's Arkham flashbacks in episode four, I just loved the young Oz origin story, the flashbacks that bookended this episode and the insights that they provided about Oz and Francis. This is

like you said, an amazing Francis episode in both the past and the present. Oz and Rex. Rex has been this specter across the season and to get to like really see young Oz, look at him and interact with him and call out to him, even though his brother told him not to lust after the gold car,

et cetera, and that everything with Jack and Benny with the brothers. Spoiler alert, I've got more coming on that in another category, so I'll save my thoughts on that. But it wasn't just a great flashback episode, like you said. You know, Oz killing South, I think I have some notes for the Moronies. on their tactics.

I would go into this layer with more men or make sure that there were fewer men from Oz's camp in there. But I thought the shit pipe comment from Sal, you know, another way to just show us what other people think of Oz, the low esteem they hold him in, like a lot of shorthand in this episode

to effectively reinforce his position in Gotham. And that response that Oz had to Sal dying, I just loved what it told us about him. The rage that he feels, feels, even though he is, his foe is dead. And as Oz is saying, he has won, like, the fact that he couldn't be responsible, that he couldn't kill him. He just needs such control over every outcome. And like you said, on the Sophia front, and I think this is among the reasons why this was the best episode of the stretch, I think, like, part of why I picked three last time as my favorite

over four, even though four was so great, is because like, like we talked about at the time, I'm really enjoying the episodes that give us a lot of balance across the protagonists, like that make room for both Oz and Sophia inside of the episodes. I thought that modern-day Sophia Frances scene was electric. The unrelenting vitriol that Francis spews at Sophia shitting on the man. It's like, why, you don't like color? Mocking Sophia's daddy issues, calling her an easy mark for Oz. You're stealing my favorite scene.

You're still like my favorite sincere favorite episode. I will say no more about it other than that, like, of course I respected that Sophia met that an equal measure with what she said to Ma in turn, which I'll look forward to talking about when you have that coming in a later scene. Sophia and Gia, I also thought was just incredible

the way that like, it was interesting to hear too on the after the episode that they repurposed the Arkham set for Brookside. So literally when those memories were researched I think it's like she is walking through her own trauma. And then to see her start with the lie and then immediately just sit down and say this horrible thing out loud to this little girl because she had to confront the fact that she was doing to Gia, what her family did to her was incredibly effective. And then, you know, how that builds into Sophia's decision when she goes to Julian and says, like, I went from one institution to another and then decides to issue that challenge to us to not back down. it wasn't the twist that there's a bomb in the car instead of Francis's body. I think we all saw that coming. That was not a surprise. It was what she said. It's what we heard at the top of the episode. Like, you think you know what I want. The way that Sophia has emerged as a character who is ready to say to everyone, you don't know what I want. The thing I want is not the thing you want for me or that you want for yourself or that you've been trying to tell me I want my entire life. And it's just, it's amazing to watch. I'm with you 100% on Sophia. So this was, yeah, the thing.

The Victor Light nature of the episode was kind of like the only knock on it for me. Other than that, I really loved it. Yeah. I'm just going to roll into my favorite scene. Do it. Favorite scene. I didn't mean to throw a small history before I was just like, oh, no. But.

Favorite scene, second category hit us. I think, like, the smuggle for me in this is, like, is Gia and Sophia, Eve and Sophia and Francis and Sophia. I think all of those scenes were truly incredible. I have the Eve one coming later. Great. Great. We'll put a pin in that. But like, the France's stuff was so good to me because I think, and in coupled with the Gia scene, because shining this light on, we're watching Sophia's rise and her, her like makeover, how her hair gets like even punkier, mulottier. And like, I make up gets more dramatic. And the scars. I can't wait for your thoughts on the mullet. I am so excited. The scars are on full display. Like, everything is just sort of, like, bumped up.

And then for Frances, is so derisively say, like, they're going to die you have pink and a tattoo on your ass, you know? Daddy won't like that. You know, like, all of that. Just so, and for her to, like, take, like, absorb that and just be like, fuck, that is what I'm doing, you know, to a certain degree. So, like, we're rooting for her on this rise and for the show to then be like, wait, but is she actually, is she not breaking the wheel. She just participating in it once again to watch her watch Gia for her to process that, to stand outside the room and process that. Again, Chris O'Mliada is just like absolutely incredible. And then also just the compassion she has. Like, yes, she will shoot Johnny Vini

in the head and we might come back to that or, you know. I remember on the last five. I was like, The character we most want to spend time with. I can't wait in the second half to learn everything there is to know about Johnny Viti. And it turned out it was just that he got really cold in the mausoleum and then got shot in the head in front of everyone. I was thinking of you keenly when that happened. I was like, well, so, you know, so, you know, or to why. The thing I texted you about was she has this like sadomasochistic sexual relationship with Dr. Jillian Rush.

and my main note for her in general is like aftercare is an important part of that dynamic and she just offers him none. I'm just saying this is my constructive criticism for her. You want to, I think she doesn't give a shit about Julian, but I'm just saying, you're losing loyal henchmen by the day. He seems quite devoted. If you want to keep that going, practice just a little bit of aftercare. Tie him up, cut him up, whatever it is you do.

But then you got to cuddle afterwards. You got to make sure that he feels okay. That's what aftercare is. When you texted me about aftercare. What did you think I meant? I thought you were going to have some hygiene notes. Not necessarily some emotional notes. I thought we were going to have a little bit of a like, you know,

Roz had her vaj bowl after Picell, et cetera. And Sophia just sort of like get dressed and then goes to sit down to have a meal. Oh, I'm sorry? Let's clean up a little. I thought I was talking about the bull, washing. No, I meant like, you know, you have your power dynamic fun. Then you have to like show the person that you care about them. I know she doesn't actually care about Julian, but here we are. Anyway, I love this abrupt turn where we're tracking Sophia's rise and we're like, yes, yes, yes.

Like, girl bass, like do it. And then we're brought up short by Francis. by Gia and by Sophia herself to be like, oh, no, is this actually? And this is the trap you fall into all the time when you find yourself rooting for an anti-hero, right? When you find yourself rooting for Walter White or something like that, you're like, yeah, fuck everyone else up. Absolutely. And then Skyler White's like, um, what are we, what are we doing here?

What are we doing here, Sophia? So I want genuinely what's best for her in life. She's probably, that's probably not on offer. in Gotham, but that is something that I would like for her. And yeah, her compassion for Eve, her compassion, it's what I'm choosing to call it for Gia and her compassion for Francis and her respect for those other women, I think, was a really compelling part of these couple episodes for me. I agree. I think to the point about how the show is forcing us to confront the villainous nature of both of the leads.

That's been the great achievement of the series so far. We are, because we are so, we do have such empathy for both Sophia and Oz, but then not to, I keep spoiling all of, and tipping all of my picks. I don't know what's wrong with me. Not to, not to get ahead and, you know, we'll, we're going to talk about Victor and Squid more later, spoiler, but something like that. You know, when Victor decided to stay, we cheered. Like, I was happy that he was with Oz, even though I was mourning the better life that he didn't go lead, like, that he didn't get on the bus.

If you want him and Oz to be together, but you know he should leave. And then you see how quickly he loses his innocence when he stays. And it's just like the showmaking is complicit in that is, I think, very effective. I create, like, I think if maybe if his decision to stay, hadn't come so close to the first murder he commits via vehicle. You know, like, he shows up and we're excited that he has rescued Oz. But then they, like, betray Sophia in that very second. And he, Victor, kills someone with a car.

I presume that person did not survive that. Maybe it's just like a bruised pelvis. No? No, that's what Dr. Julian Rush has. So, like, I think that, like, I think Victor, all these steps that Victor's take, have been associated with a bit of dread. There's like, there's like, you, watching them watch the sunrise at the end of, um, episode one, it has all the trappings of like a hopeful future.

But every step Victor takes is deeper into and for like people who've watched the wire and watched characters like Michael on the wire. Like you've watched stories like this before where you were just sort of like, Victor, I'm rooting for you. I care so much about you. But every step you take is closer to like a path of no redemption for you. And in fact, you might already be there. and that's devastating to watch.

So, yeah. That was on the Sophia Francis scene. That was the other thing I really loved about it was, because again, there are these parallels across the characters. They're all different. They have their specific circumstances, but they share so many traits. And so it's extra powerful to hear Sophia,

not only because she is standing up in the active resistance of Francis saying, like, you're an easy mark, etc. but the way that she said, but those things don't make you a monster, do they someone shaped him? And like, makes us think about that, makes Francis think about that.

And then like, well, who is that person for Victor? It's Oz. And the way that the cycle continues. Yeah, and who is that person for Gia? Is it Sophia?

Like, and I think that for Francis specifically, so Deirdre O'Connell, who's like a Tony Award-winning actress like there are there have been scenes in previous episodes where I was just sort of like

this feels a bit one note this feels a bit you know like irritating to a certain degree and but her scene with Sophia and some of her stuff with Victor in these episodes

just really really landed for me in a way that I really loved so her her Oz cuddling with her in bed maybe not so much.

What was, what did you have more notes on? The full on spoon sesh in bed or the way that he was like painting her like a doll and applying her makeup and then telling her how gorgeous she looked. It was powerful. It was the spoon. It was the spooning. Yeah. It was the spooning for me.

And at least she was like, get the fuck off me. But when he like got it in the first place, I was like, too close, too close. What are you doing? Too close? I hated it. I hated it. It was, we were getting into full-on, like, Game of Thrones and Cess territory at that point. We were.

We were. This is part of Oz's, young Oz's motivation, right? Like, he wants his mom's full attention. Loves a snuggle. Yeah. Loves a snuggle. Let's just snug up and watch Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. Who says no?

A lot of, a lot of runtime for Ginger. For Friend of Ginger? Yeah, yeah, yeah. My favorite scene. I also have a smuggle. My smuggles also involve Sophia. But I am going with, I actually proud of myself, unlike last pot, I'm not picking a favorite scene from the favorite episode. I'm going to shake it up a little bit. So I am going with

episode five and an episode six duo here. The Sal and Sophia impromptu meals. That's what I'm going to call the smuggle. I thought this is like in general a fascinating dynamic. It's great to get more, we were saying in the mid-season pod, like, yeah, Clancy Brown. Like, it was great. At a similar moment when he died, I was like, well. Yeah, until he dropped dead in the trolley. Her life for Glancy, I guess. Nice to get a little bit more with Sal. So episode five is when Sophia finds him in his hideout after the hit from Oz backfires.

And Sal's basically, thanks for the keys along with the ship. Great stuff. That is. That is. Wild. And I just love the way that Sophia arrived. You know, you hear the gunfire first. And then it's like, what funky hideout?

Big fan of wood? I see. Do you think Sophia watches curb? Like, do you respect wood? Then we get the line about, you know, the insight into Sophia's thoughts on how takeout travels and holds up. I'd like to talk to Sophia about my personal feelings about the delivery economy. Can I tell you a life-changing situation? Sure. The town that I live in right now has very haltry delivery options. This is a trade-off for moving from Oakland to slight sticks. But, uh, the vegan restaurant, which is amazing, has this incredible, like these incredible nachos they make. When they deliver, the nacho stuff comes separate from the chips. Yeah, of course. Well, you say, of course, but I think that most delivery nachos don't take that step. And that it's just Sog City.

And I just want to applaud this particular restaurant and their fake meat. It's great stuff. Sog City. I like it. I'm putting it up there with soggy bottom. Great one. Great. Great work.

Whether it was that the food was too soggy or too congealed, who can say. But what we do know for sure is that Sophia was like, here's what my dad thought of you. He thought you were too sentimentally thought you were too weak. And the thing I loved about this scene then is that the bridge to their surprising alliance is that the thing that Carmine hated about Sal is the thing that Sophia craves. This guy actually gave a shit about his family. So when she says, my driver betrayed me, the daughter of the Don, and then was rewarded, like, would you have done this?

Would you have let this stand? And of course, the answer is no. He says, I would have ripped out his tongue and left him for the vultures. And that brings me to then the second part of this smuggle, the episode 16 on the heels. This is my, I think, like, again, his favorite scene, favorite scene of the stretch here.

The thing that I loved is that I wrote down to my notes like with an eye roll, oh, here comes like the stereotypical, we're making the swass scene from like a monster thing. and then he's making one of his wife's dishes. I loved that. The eggplants, the tomato, a little meat, try it with the yogurt. Like Taj liked it.

Just in case Taj doesn't come up again today, by the way. Let's take a quick moment here. This is not the pick for me. They're rushed for favorite scene. To be clear. The Backtat? The Backtat and the TikTok. The posting on TikTok so that they knew where he was and could go kidnap him.

And the fact that he's just like smoking and has his headphones on and is completely oblivious to his guards getting under it. annihilated. Incredible stuff. That was not, but it was almost my needle drop for the stretch with Tosh's headphones. Tosh's top of the line noise canceling headphones. Also, the fact of the Bactat is like a Phoenix. Ben Affleck.

Affleck Core. Ben Cor. Bless his heart, as Jen Garner said. Bless his heart. Love it. Oh, man. So Sophia goes from the room with Julian right out to the kitchen. and finds Sal cooking the meal,

makes the comment about how fugitives really shouldn't leave their rooms, but then they just fall into such a easy rhythm with each other, the way that she offers to just help chop the vegetables, he tells her about learning that recipe from Nadia. She gives him the better bowls to use, the better China to use. And then like the way he watches her inhale the meal,

how ravenous she is. We talked about that in the last pod, you know, life after Arkham. And just the way that his emotional over his family after she mentioned, Taj, was threatening to consume him, but then they kind of both pull their focus back to this shared mission of Oz.

I just really love that scene. And you feel on the heels, especially of the forging of the alliance in episode five, they're both craving this thing. They couldn't get it with their own families for very different reasons, right? But they couldn't get it. And so now they have it with each other, very briefly,

but they do. And I thought that was lovely. Sal and Sophia together, but also Sophia and Oz. The parallels are crazy in terms of, like, you know, the big speeches they give about, like, you know, the fat cats didn't know what I was back to. And I will, I will, you can own this with me,

all that sort of stuff. And that, like, thirsting for connection and family, Oz creepily with his mom, less creepily with Victor and Sophia. creepily with Julian and less cruebly with Sal. Yeah, I thought it was, I loved that scene. It was great.

It was really good. On the parallel front, I do really love that the write down to like specific language, the whole, Sophia and Oz both forging their new families with the they don't know our names pitch was great. Also, on the South Sophia front, I didn't, you,

I wanted to use this for my Sophia clip that we're about to talk about next, but it didn't really translate, but it's when, It's when Sal turns on the fireplace, the music starts, and she just goes like, I know, right? Love a callback. Yeah. I know.

Wonderful stuff. Okay, let's get to our next category, which is our favorite Oz and Sophia clips yet again. Do you want to start with Oz or do you want to start with Sophia? Oh, I have to start with my Oz clip and you will soon hear why Steve King playlist. You know, not even a mile from here. There's a bunch of big time city hall fucks. They're sitting in some fancy private club. to drink an orange wine to make a crooked deals to benefit them.

Drinking orange wine had to dedicate that to Mallory Rubin, number one orange wine drinker in my life. I love an orange wine. I do. I don't think of you as a fat cat in city hall making deals to benefit yourself, Mallory. But I was just like, wow, that was for you. I felt like that line was just for you. That's the same.

Number one orange drinker in my life, orange wine drinker in my life. Thanks, buddy. You're welcome. You're sweet. pal. My, um, my Oz pick, it involves councilmen as well. Steve, can we hear my Oz clip? Oh, maybe I just said, talk to the Gazette, but they'd love to see how you page a gambling.

That's what city funds. You think you could just roll a dog to people who got them within a visible dick, that it? Oh, shit. As cop. Complicated legacy. This guy is a fucking. Poet. You think you can just raw dog the people of Gotham with an invisible dick. This is what he says to Councilman Haiti at his car. That is astonishing. But on the one hand, I agree that he is a poet. On the other hand, did you have a moment when he just coined the phrase gold summit to describe it? I was just sort of like, okay. Sure. Gold, like the beer you're serving? I don't know, like, all the money we're going to make?

What are you talking about? The cooler fold beer in the back of the pickup was an incredible... I'm here to remind you that I'm just a kid from the east side. Just a guy. Just a guy being a bro. Just a bro being a pal. Oh, Oz. Okay, what's your Sophia clip?

Steve. This was the best. This was the best. Let's play. What does he like? He's not that complicated. So... he's the best you ever what else he is I used to lie to men like that you don't have to

anymore you have the power now you are good at telling people what they want to hear incredible outstanding outstanding stuff great great sequence between these two characters and then like because we had been anticipating this right we had watched so Fia clocker, we knew something like this was coming. I genuinely wasn't sure whether or not she was going to kill her in this scene. It really could have gone either way as far as I was concerned. That sort of shared the information not squeezed out via violence, but like sort of coaxed out via, you know, shared point of view, a shared experience in the world I thought was

incredible. And then I loved, I mean, like, obviously, Chrissy Millietta really funny as she's circling her and doing this like breathy line rain. But then also for Eve to then do the same exact thing to her and her say, I see exactly what you're doing. You're doing what you did for him. I just thought it was wonderful. Great stuff. This will be in the Emmy reel, for sure. And I just thought I used to lie to men like that was one of the lines of the season. and one of the one of the examples of how the show is effectively summing up a character's journey and evolution in shorthand. It was just incredible performance, incredible writing, great dynamic between two characters we were eager to see together.

Perfect scene, perfect line. I used to lie to men like that. I have no notes. Genuinely none. That's wonderful. I think we're about to say on Sophia for a second because based on our opening snapshot, my assumption, our next category is most compelling character of this stretch. Are you going to hit Sophia here or?

It's Sophia, but I don't have much more to say in addition to what we've already said. What do you want to, is Sophia your character? No, tell me who your character is and what you want to say about them. Is it Oz, Kat? My character is Johnny Vidi. Now, I'm just sadly not. If only. If only.

It could have been Johnny Vidi. I was deprived of the opportunity to be compelled by Johnny Vidi in the second half of the season of television. He could have been a contend, but no, he went to meet his lady love in the afterlife. Though he did have that great scene where he was talking about Sophia's mom, that was like a good, a really good moment. Shivering in the cold, begging for his life, only to get got at the table in front of everyone. As a fan of Buffy Vampire Slayer, I'm a huge fan of a mausoleum. So I was excited to see the mausoleum get used there. Okay, well, who is your character?

My character is Oz Cobb. Okay, tell me what. So as was the case last time, this was kind of a coin flip to me between Oz and Sophia. Not Dr. Julian Rush, no? Not Dr. Julian Rush, no. I continue to have some notes for Dr. Julian Rush. HIPAA has some notes too. Okay, go ahead.

Yeah, indeed. My assumption was that you would have Sophia, so I thought I would go with Oz here. You know, I think we're covering, like, a lot of the particulars in other characters, but broadly, I felt like I gained in these episodes a deeper understanding. of what drove Oz to this place, like why he is this way. And again, like we were already talking about, the way that these episodes forced us to confront that this guy's not, he's the protagonist, but he's not the hero of the story. He's a monster. And to see the things that he does to people, including the people in his life, like his brothers, who he should protect, is absolutely harrowing. And I just love what a mess of contradictions he is. And I enjoyed the way that we got to really

see that in a number of different respects across the episode, like across the episodes. When Victor goes to him after killing squid, the way that Oz hugged him and whispered, it gets easier. Yeah. I found that both so touching that moment between them and so chilling. Yeah. So, so chilling. Picking the underground trolley tunnels where he left his brothers to die as his new headquarters.

Like, good God. What does that tell us about Ozcock? Watching him abandon his men at the end of this last episode and go through a similar, not the same, but a similar, like, hatch in the underground. I'm just sort of like, oh, so literally nothing has changed. And every time you make a bid for, like, family and camaraderie and we own this together, and like every single alliance he makes, he breaks as soon as possible, which is what, you know, of course, good old Dr.

Pierre Chang tried to say. Call it out. Yeah. And everyone was like, I'm going to crack these beers anyway. He's like, he tried. He tried. I think, too, the way that in this stretch,

Oz is inadequacy and boastfulness, like that loud superiority, but also all of the inferiority that's driving it are just so palpably inextricable from each other. We already talked about the reaction to Sal's death. The appeal to councilman Haiti, just even the initial approach there, I'm not just Carmine's guy, you know?

You need to respect me, but also I'm here basically doing the dirty work myself. Like I've got the pliers directly in your nose. The pitch that he made on the Gold Summit front, not just the pitch that he made to the five gangs that he's seeking to align and have team up so that they can challenge Sophia and Sal. But that was even the pitch he made to his own men,

like to his own lieutenants initially. You know, and like you said earlier, the parallel there was Sophia, when she said none of you are made men except for Johnny here, the rest of you, your pawns, you're overlooked, you're expendable. And then we moved to the Gold Summit. And it's like, they run shit, we eat shit. And that's the pitch from Oz.

That was almost my line. Fantastic. They run shit, we eat shit. It's really good. Really good. So, so, so good. I love, too, again, the additional, like, glimpses into the Rex obsession in these episodes

because we talked about this in the first pot. It was very clear that that was the image that Oz was seeking for himself, you know, the legacy that he was trying to cultivate, like he wanted to be the provider. But then the fact that he has really no awareness that he's also a cause of destruction. I felt was fascinating in these episodes. Like, he's bragging to Vic about how they're enriching

the lives of the inhabitants of Crown. point, but then he's flooding every borough of Gotham with bliss. Like, he's the cause of harm. Yes. But he's going to sit there and talk about all the people he's helping. And he genuinely doesn't seem to see the difference. I find that fascinating. And then he's just like, it's all legacy.

Turn the light on. He did get the lights on. The music as well. Ma loved it. Love to dance. I have a question about Rex Calabrese. As played by... Victor from Billions.

Okay. You know, Bill. is not a show that I enjoyed at all. But Louis can tell me he's like, you know, has shown up in Scorsese films, like, is just like a guy with a face.

And like, I was just really excited to see him here. Do you think there's a version of events where Rex is his father? I was going to ask you the same question. I didn't want to expose that I had missed a key line in a, you know, like,

well, I guess it's possible to be both them. But I don't think so. And I would say just as it feels to me, I don't know if there's enough time for this in one episode, but it feels to me just like in the first four episodes, we were like, boy, we've gotten all this rich backstory for Victor, for Sophia.

We have these like couple lines about Oz's brothers. It seems like there's more to come there. And then, boy, was there. We have a lot of lines in these episodes about Oz's father, but we don't know the story there. So, I mean, I think. And obviously Rex and Francis have had a relationship. They had an interaction.

Yeah. All right. Just. Well, like, if he didn't know Rex is his father and he finds out he was his father, will that destroy his idea of Rex as this, like, hero? Because he's like, he was right there and he didn't, like, take care of us, you know, something like that. Like, I don't know, but it's just sort of like this, the rec stuff feels like it has to be building towards something more than just like, this is who I'm modeling myself after, you know? So, okay, in real time, this is occurring to me because.

One of the things I was going to ask you is... Joanna can turn any show into a theory show. I love it. I didn't know quite how to make this work in my head. Like, I was trying to figure out how the... What Julian and Sophia are doing with Francis could lead to... Francis finding out what Oz did with Jack and Benny. That was what I was trying to piece together because Francis doesn't know that Oz is responsible for that, clearly.

But even just the way that Sophia repeated their names, I'm like, I feel like they're going to... to piece something together and present it to Francis and Oz and something's going to come to a head there. Yeah. But I agree. This could be the thing. It could be all part of it as well. If Francis like spits that back at him, they weren't even like your brothers or like something,

you know, like whatever. Yeah. Or like if she told Julian something. Yeah. Like under those red lights that Sophia can now use to. I want to disarm Oz. Say really quickly. I'm sure you already knew this.

I just made an error when talking about this last time. that the type of therapy that Dr. Julian Rush is using, questionable though, his methods maybe in general, is EMDR therapy is just like a known way to uncover trauma, traumatic memories. So the lights and all the, you know, so I was like, him with his spooky lights. And then we got emails from people and like, actually, that is a well-respected method of therapy. So my apologies to you, Dr. Julian Rush.

You're a creep, but not your light rig is innocent. Okay. A lot of Julian talk today. I was going to say I was not in testimony, but I was. I love you, Rossi. Yeah, it's great. He's a wild card for me in the finale. Oh, yeah.

Same. Yeah. Lastly, on the why I picked Oz for most compelling character of the stretch front, just everything with Ma. Again, we've chatted about a lot of this already. The Brother Reveal got more coming on that in another category. I think that the jealousy, Now that we have the context of watching young Oz, the way that he, when his brothers came into the room, everything changed for us.

He just wanted to be alone with his mother. The way he's looking past Benny to make sure he can leer at Jack and Francis on the couch, it makes something like the look that Oz had for Victor and Francis during the breakfast scene. When Francis was like patting Victor's cheek and, you know, mistaking him for one of her sons and calling him biscuit. that makes me like, because I found the relationship between Francis and, and Victor just like you, quite charming and sweet, like watching them dance together. It was just the way he's caring for her, like, when he saw the bruise on her arm and he was so genuinely concerned. It makes us love Victor.

But I saw that look on Oz's face and then we move on and understand his sister. I'm like, fuck. So all of that is very rich. And that bathtub scene. First of all, let me say this. The water's fucking freezing. How long you've been in here? That's what Adam says to me.

every time I've enjoyed a nice long bath listening to the watch. When you listen to the watch in the bath, a core maller experience, do you ever quaff a glass of orange wine while you're doing so? You know, I don't actually. Maybe I should start. Yeah. I don't drink wine in the bath, but maybe I'll start. Maybe this will be something I introduce into my life next year.

I also have to interrogate this apocryphal story you just told here because no episode of the watch is long enough for the bath to go. That's true. House of R, sure. A bath can turn cold in a 54-minute span. Not that cold. I really feel like if you want to die from hypothermia in the bath, you got to turn it to house Lamar.

That's a promise. Oh, man. Fair note. Fair note. The way that Frances begged her son to kill her rather than letting her to continue to deteriorate, you know, as she put it, if my mind goes before my body is ready.

And the tenderness, but also despair with which Oz greeted that, the tears in his eyes as he says, can't do it. And it ain't natural. And then the way that that moved from right into this very warped aspect of their relationship because we have his devotion to her. But also the way that she speaks to him, like her response to that is, no, no, don't you pussy out on me, Oswald. It just was such a rich little sequence for their relationship.

And so again, I ask now, heading into the finale, Do you think that this scene is setting up as letting Sophia kill Francis because he basically already has permission more than permission from her? I don't know that I can see that coming, but I can, it is very important for us,

the audience, to know that Francis wants to die. So if Sophia kills her or something like that, that sort of like, you know, lessens the crime of it, because Francis is ready to go, stuff like that. When Francis says, we talked about this, I think I had trouble articulating myself around this when we were discussing the ways in which

Lilia's episode in Agatha was sort of like this dementia met at the before, but like I find it very affecting when characters talk about dementia as like a thief. And I think specifically to contrast, you know, her more confused episodes with how really, or sharp she is with Sophia

when she's able to focus. And then she like loses focus inside of that same scene. But like all of that is tremendously effective. Again, Deirdre O'Connell is really, really good. And I just think that like also to see the difference between Francis before she lost her sons to after she loses her sons, you know,

like that transition as well. With very little, like this show can be so effective with like very little actual screen time or explanation. It hinges on performance in a way that's very enriching. Even like the way we had heard her say, you know, she couldn't do her numbers anymore,

but we don't really understand what that means. And then we see in the next episode the flashback she's sitting, she's running the book, she's working the... Yeah, I agree. Last thing on the honest point, you know, the humor, it's less voluminous in the stretch of episodes than the first half of the season, but it is still there. We did get to hear him say,

who you miss in that skinny little pussy, Johnny Viti. Milosh, the guy wore lips in his shoes. We all knew it. Tough for Milosh in death there. All right. Maybe your pick for this next category will be Johnny. Maybe it'll be someone else. I don't know.

Could be. Fifth superlative. The character you wish we had gotten to spend more time with in these three episodes, Joanna Robinson. Yeah. Thank you so much, Malie Rubin. Back to you in the studio. It would have been, I did write Johnny Vini.

down. Hell yeah. If we had not already made like 10 different references to him, if this is the first time he came up, I would have been like, remember how we one more time with Johnny Meaty? Rest in pieces. But my backup and this is just as good, I think, in my own view, is Con O'Neill

is McKenzie Bach. Con O'Neill who was in the Batman. This is another character connection to the Batman, GCPD chief Bach. I thought his scene with Sophia was really good.

I really love Con O'Neill as a performer in general. He's like super distinctive voice, everything about him. I just thought, I really loved him in the Batman too. And so I would have loved to have seen more of him. And it made me think it made me go down the rabbit hole. I was like, what happened to that GCPD show they were going to do? And it was like, oh, it became that Arkham Asylum show, which then James Gunn killed. So, you know, because I was like, because we're getting these like GCPD sort of ties in

this show. So I was like, are we trying to set something further up? And maybe it will pitch forward to Batman, the Batman, too. But anyway, Con O'Neill, legend. Just as for our flag means death fans. Okay, go ahead. What were you going to say? I love that show.

No, you did. Love. I think you honored, as usual, the spirit of the exercise. Oh. Mora, I think you honored the spirit of the exercise more precisely than I did. I'm going with a character we actually got a few meaty scenes with, and we've talked about today, but the scenes were so good. It made me want even more. I'm going with Eve. I agree. I really hope we get Eve. I don't, I mean, we've already loaded the finale with a bunch of

expectations, so I don't know what room there is for Eve Carlo, but I would love to see her. Yeah, and like the way in which her girls were all so loyal to her and the way in which she rejected, you know, Oz's offer of leaving. Yeah, we had, we had like three really good scenes that all built nicely on each other. We had her fury in the fifth episode that Oz showed no respect for the sanctity of her home by stashing Taj there and bringing his men there. And the thing I loved was that she called him out not only in her like apparent anger, but when she said to him, baby, do you even know when you're full of shit anymore? Because he's like, no, it's fine. This is all going exactly the way I wanted to do it. It's like, is it? I thought it was really

important to know that she was a character who would say that to him. And yeah, like her, and then later, when he goes to get her after he's killed Nadia and Taj, horrifically, and Sal is broken out, he's like, I got to make sure the people I love her safe. He goes for her. You know, later we'll hear her tell Sophia, like, he's not going to come from me, but we've seen that he did. Like, he does, he does want to make sure she's okay. But then also we see all of the deception and lack of care inside of the relationship inside of these scenes. Like, Like, the, in that prior scene, when she was like, you know, me and the girls, you dangled us in front of her because she thinks, like, he has opportunities to tell her that Sophia's not the hangman. Many, not only over the years, but inside of these episodes and doesn't, which made it even richer then when that was revealed to Eve from Sophia and that exchange.

I love that. And I just thought, like, the way that she, I was so scared in the scene when he went to get her and she refused to go with him. because we've seen how Oz responds to rejection. Yeah. The impulsive nature. I was genuinely terrified. And then he's, he like kind of can't even look at her. He's, you know, pounding on a table, the face downcast and saying like, fucking idiot, fucking dumb, stupid, stupid about himself.

Like, that he allowed himself to believe that this was real. But then when when Sophia goes to Eve's apartment in episode six, after Roxy led her there, I loved that. I know with the headache. Easy money too. Easy money. So good. Great business woman. You know, I love the way that even though we have already seen that Eve decided not to go with Oz, she was ready to defend her relationship with him to Sophia. And more than that, to expose the limitation that Sophia has and not being able to understand that people can have different types of connection with each other or look for different things in a relationship with each other, right?

Like, we obviously had the clip that we heard already, but then, like, across the scene when Sophia says he pays you, I presume, so it can't be love. And Eve says, like, must be nice. You were born into opportunities. You can afford to think of black and white. What I got with Oz, it ain't just one thing. I know what he is. A liar, a narcissist, killer, but we all got our shit.

I just loved that. And then the way that she sat down. I also love the fact that, like, she, and this is actually something they discuss actively in the beginning of the scene. She opens the door in her sweats, right? Like, she's not all done off. And Sophie is like, has Oz seen you like this? And she's like, yeah, she doesn't like it.

Yeah. Like, that was all so good. I was wondering, we've been asking, again, there's no room for this in the finale. And this is probably the end of this story, again, under the James Gunn administration. But, like, the number of wigs she has there that, like, you know, so her last name, Carlo. Big for you. Well, yeah. But, like, her last name, you, Carlo had people ask.

like is she connected to Clayface at all or something like that. But like she has a sort of shape shifting quality to her because she like makes herself look a certain way for whatever her clientele happens to be. And so in that way, it's like Clayface and Jace. But, um, but yeah, I would love to spend more time with some of these characters. It's a, it's really sad that we only have one more episode. I know. I know. It feels like a really well-paced season, but I do wish we have more time. where you've ever sounded in your life. I know.

I'm going, I know, I'm down to the ocean on. I know. Urge wine. Oh, man. Eve, great character. I loved how she was able to earn Sophia's respect there, too, right? With, like, the commitment and devotion she has to her girls and the way that works in all directions, that was great. And then just, like, the choice that she makes to tell Sophia, crown point, go to crowd point.

Like, you deserve your shot that on the, you know, on the heels of the. I just didn't tell you I was the hangman. He just let my dad keep killing your friends reveal. That was all just very rich. Great stuff. All right, Joe, what do you have for our next category, which is most illuminating flashback and or trip down memory lane? So it doesn't actually have to be one of the flashback scenes that we got since those were more limited in number on this stretch of episodes. It can be. Or it could just be a story that somebody tells us about the past. It can be anything. Originally this category was just most illuminating flashback and I had not watched the final episode yet and I was like, wow, it must be riddled with flashbacks. And they were great. But they were great. And then you changed the category, which I appreciated and I thought about changing it to something else. But I just, I mean that the young Oz Cobb kills his brothers. How can it not be this? Come on. I thought it was really well done. I thought I was really well done. I thought I like that Jack and Betty, I mean, I like that they weren't asked. You know what I mean?

They didn't like bully their brother. I don't think they felt like they really understood him or felt like that that Oz is, that Oz feeling aggrieved. Yeah. Wasn't connected to them actually being assholes to him. They did this hide and seek and he's like, you know I can't go down there. And then they sort of like immediately apologize. You know?

And so it's just like. Yeah. It seemed like that was more like a lack of thought rather than act to active like seeking to actively harm him. And then the Midnight Boys had this debate about whether or not, you know, we feel like what Oz did here was actually murder. Yes. Okay. And I was rewatching it sort of trying to think about that and like him snuggle on the couch with his mom watching Fred Astaire and an iconic sequence from Toppa.

A film called Top Hat is every time he just like looks at the rain and doesn't look like troubled. not really troubled. And there's a version of the story where Oz doesn't tell his mom because he's scared about getting in trouble for what he did. There's more anxiety, there's more concern,

there's more blah, blah, but he just looks like cozy and comfy, getting little head smooches from Francis in his happy space watching Fred Astaire do his thing. Just absolutely disturbing. You know what I mean? And like so Oz's a character,

again, this show has been so good, at making us feel empathy. You're just describing how Oz reacts to Eve saying, I'm not going to come with you to Crowb Point. And he's like turning it inward. Stupid, stupid, all this sort of stuff like that. And I immediately feel like so soft towards him in that regard. And the show can constantly do this,

but show us that from a very young age, there's something missing inside of Oz Cobb, that he didn't just impulsively do this to his brothers and then like couldn't undo. it. He ignored every opportunity to undo it. And that's where we land. So yeah, I'm going to call it moida. Moida in my, uh, definitely. From my point. Moita most bowdo. Oh, man. Yeah, I agree. I mean, we already have chatted a lot about everything earlier in the scene, the way that he's, the air in the room shifts when his brothers come in and how keenly we can sense that he just wants it to be the two of them,

even the musical accompaniment, islands in the stream, you know, hold me closer and I feel no pain. We hear, like, this is where we get to hear, like, at the young age, he's hearing this my big, strong bull of a boy talk from Francis. Again, the response to, like, you know, Jack's like, don't, you stay there. Mom doesn't want you talking to Rex, and he's like, hey, Rex, right? And he's like, the gold car, holy shit, the money. Oh, my God, $50. It's like, I know what he is. He's a gangster.

And he says it with kind of like awe in his voice, right? Very good fellows. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, yeah, my heart broke for him when he was, when he, when he couldn't go down the ladder and says, you know, it's hard for me. But I, to me, I love that there's a debate about it. And like that it's open to interpretation. But for me, he has every opportunity to go back and open that hatch to tell his mom to confess what he did and have her go help them. And he doesn't. And he looks half. that he hasn't done it. And even when he gets home, even if he didn't know necessarily that, like, closing that hatch

would mean that the kids would drown, the fact that they were missing in this torrential downpour. Yeah. And he didn't do anything. It's also, like, has a large label on it that says overflow tunnel. And, like, we're led to understand that they spend time in that area playing. Like, you know,

I don't know, like they have the coins. Like, the way that they start gurgling. Oh, my God. The cutting, I thought this was great editing, the cutting back and forth saws, snuggled on the couch and Jack and Benny crying out. And then the silence of brutal. Just the water pouring out. Yeah. But even just like right when he gets home, right?

And he's telling this lie about them. They went to the movie Beetle juice. And, you know, again, like later, Francis is like, what movie did you say it was again? Because like, I might have to go pick them up. He has every chance. And he just never changes his mind. But just the way when she was like Jackson of let you walk home by yourself. and he says, I don't need Jack's help.

Like, he has decided that he wants to be the only boy. This was absolutely harrowing and deeply, deeply disturbing to watch. And, you know, later, the second flashback in the episode, we have heard us talk about this. We heard him tell Sophia at Al's funeral about the state that his mother was in after his brothers died and then that night when she took him dancing. and now we understand what led to that. And it's just all plays differently.

I liked how these flashbacks re-contextualized the earlier moments where Oz has referenced his brothers to somebody. You know, like... But also like... Also, Francis, like, in her sequin finery and them, like, you know, any, like, dancing that she has done throughout this season, it's horrifying.

Yeah. You deserve the best life. I'm going to get it for you. I promise, right? And it's like, that was from her... In her moment, from her perspective, that moment is pulling herself out of it, but she has no idea why she's in that state to begin with. And I thought, like, not just something like mentioning the brothers in episode two to Sophia,

but even in this more recent batch of episodes, like Victor asks him in episode five what happened to Jack and Benny and Oz says the city took him. When he said that, just like it took your family. Like Victor's family died in a flood terrorist attack in a flood. Like Oz left his brothers. He could have gone and opened that door. That's not the same thing. When he said that, when he was like the city,

city took them. I was like, and so not to overthink these things, but like, that's what we do. But like, does Oz think himself somehow as Gotham itself? You know, he's like, I took him. The city took them. But then also he puts it, but he also like hates Gotham and he loves Gotham. And it's all just sort of very messy and Freudian. That sounds like you're describing Gallum just as he hates and that is himself. It's almost time. Oh, man. Man.

From this very disturbing moment into our next category. You mean destoibing? Desoibing moment? Most distoibing moment? Is it a particular bit of accent work? What will you pick? Jesus for the newsies. Okay, listen.

It's hard to compete with the gurgling cries of Jack and Betty. Very upsetting. Right. Very upsetting. Another elemental death would be. the fire roasting of the Moronies. Dude. This was...

One later being like... That is actually my most disturbing part. It is them going up in flames. And also that like that Nadia had like generally kind of had time to get out of the way and she couldn't leave Taj

and that's why she went up in flames. Do you disagree? Okay. So you think she smelled that her child was saturated in gasoline but stayed there rather than not knowing that he was covered in gasoline. That makes more sense to me, actually. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I just think she had time.

I, like, when Taj went up, I was like, oh, she could be fine. But then she stayed so close to him, and then she went up as well. But, yeah, the hairspray comment later was actually, I think, the most desoving moment because it was bad enough to watch it happen. But, like, to make a hairspray joke about it later was. So that's beyond the pale. I think so. You keep saying you have a code.

Do you? America or no? Okay. Yeah. Oh, man. My pick is Victor killing Squid. I was so sad when this happened. Not for you, Squid.

This shook me, Joe. It shook me. I mean, we see Vic at the beginning of the episode, you know, arrive with his New Jordans, and he's on his bike, and he's got the gun. We know he has the gun. We saw the end of the prior episode, episode five, that Squid had spotted him, that he saw a Francis. He saw Victor.

Like, we can feel that. we're moving toward a conflict here. I thought of the tension to this moment built in actually kind of a predictable fashion, but I still found the emotional wallup of it very impactful. You know, Vic trying to talk to Oz about it and Oz is so preoccupied. So Vic just like wants to prove that he can handle it on his own and then trying to work Squid and evade him and dupe him and buy him off. And then the way that Squid threatens him and goads him and says, like, see, you're a man, you're a man now, Victor.

You don't got to make it so hard on yourself. And like, I don't know, I couldn't stop thinking about how before the Ridler's attack, like what we saw in the flashback, Vic just wants to be with his girlfriend and enjoy a night on the roof. He doesn't even want to be near Squid. Yeah. But he doesn't even want to be near him. And now he leads him down that stairwell and turns and shoots him and like watches him bleed out. And Gergo. Speaking of. gurgling, gurgle and die, like the choice of the bullet hit kind of the side of his neck so that it was a kind of protracted, anguished sequence. And Vic's reaction to it, like, he's just he's a husk after this, both in the immediate sequence where he goes to Oz and Oz can tell what happened, even though Victor doesn't say it just from how he's carrying himself and the look on his eyes. And like, then later when he sees the blood specs on his shes, on his shoes and is trying to scrub it off before the power comes out comes back on and then

from that loss of innocence like the crossing of that Rubicon because even the car even driving the car into Nadia's goons was more like lightly bruising his pelvis just a just a scratch on the hip um even that was more like oh my god I'm returning and I see this thing and I act on instinct like he has to know when he goes to Squid that if the money doesn't work, he's going to have to do this thing. This was just, this fell like crossing a Rubicon

in a different way than me. No, I agree. And so then like his reaction because like when he, when he crashes the car, it's like, should we get Sophia, there's like adrenaline or whatever. Adrenaline, yeah, exactly.

The actual, like the absolute devastation. Yeah. Of having felt like he had no other choice but to do this. Yeah. Yeah. And then to go. from seeing the blood on his shoes to that dance with Francis, I don't know, to confront, like,

where he was in his life versus where he could be or where he wanted to be that kind of, like, mother-son moment. It was just, whoof, boy, shook me. Very good. Really shook me. Vic. Hope Vic is okay. Destroyed it out. It was quite disturbing. Yeah. I mean, Vic is M.I.A. at the end of this episode, you know, it's like, he's getting an army. Getting an army, but he's not answering a cell phone. Will he show up just in the nick of time yet again? Joanna, our next category is Most Captivating Location. Do you think he's going to show up

with the hot Latino lesbians who clearly run their own hot Latino lesbian gang that were at the Gold Summit? I want to know everything about them. They seemed amazing. Okay. It was like the TV show Vita. Okay.

Most captivating location. We're going to zip through these last couple, I think. I got to give it to, I love, we're in a Batman show. We live an underground lair. I have to give it to like the sewers. Penguin in the comics, like there's like Gotham Underground,

the Underground Railroad of like criminals, blah, blah, blah. But like the penguin in the sewer is so Batman returns. Danny DeVito. Batman Returns is my, I think my favorite Batman movie. And so I was just like, I know there was like a Burgess Meredith reference, I think, to the actor who played the penguin in the Adam West Batman movie and show. But this to me feels like the homage to Burton and Batman returns.

And I love it. This isn't a water world in the source, but still, we're under the streets in a secret layer where the penguin is like, it's set up HQ. It's really difficult not to think of the Burton. the Burton sequence. I also was thinking about R-Pats about the Batman and about the fact that he of course has the, he enters his back cave on that track, the rail track. So like, I had been wondering, I now find this less likely after

the explosion because Oz isn't going to be down there anymore, but I was like, are we going to, are we building toward a run-in with Batman in the tunnels here, like in the trolley tunnels? Mallory's on the subreddit being like, R-Pats cameo for the finale, Mephisto, when? I probably should spend more time on Reddit. I don't really, but it does feel like maybe my home. Okay, out of...

For Mephisto theories. Yeah. What's the likelihood we get an R-Pats cameo in the finale of the penguin? I'm at like a five. I really could go either way on it. I don't know. I don't know. I got a one.

I, it felt to me like... It feels to me unlikely in the universe of the show. I feel like it's more likely we get a Jeffrey Wright. Maybe. Maybe a Jeffrey Wright cameo. And that's still like 304 to me. Our pads feels wildly unlikely. Yeah, I don't.

I'm not expecting. I'm not expecting it, especially now that the tunnel is gone boom. That would be really, like, really comical, though. If they just like past each other, like, Like in those old Looney Dune cartoons Is this your commute too? It's like the sheep dog and the and the wolf and the old Lunan It's just sort of like they clock it and clock out

They're like Mona and Ralph Anyway, yeah That would be great It does feel like Batman would be involved at this point I will say that's like that is a little odd But that's the MCU problem Where it's like where is Iron Man in this story Where Iron Man certainly would have gotten involved at this point

Yeah, I think particularly given that these are characters who interacted in this exact space and span of time in the film. Let's just all hold hands. Yeah, that's fine. In a prayer circle or witches summoning if you prefer and hope that our paths as Batman is off fucking Zoe Kravitz's catwoman in the neighboring town. That's where I would want to be. That's where I would want to be. Joe, big moment for us on the pod with tunnels recently. You know, we had our Westview subway now this.

That's what I thought when he was like, oh, it's the end-agand tram. I was like, oh, my God, are you going to the witch's road? I really did love that, like, again, Sal is just like a sewer rat and kind of handwaves. This is like a filthy, laughable place. And Oz looks at it and sees only potential. It's humid. It's a good place to grow mushrooms. It's hidden. They're so busy with their noses up. They'll never think to look down. It's connected. We're going to have access to the entire city. It's a chance to be more like Rex. I can give the people in Crown Point, opportunity. And again, I honestly just cannot get over the fact that he has set up shop in the place where he let his brothers die. I just cannot get over it. It's like such a great touch. Do you think when someone said to a rat, he was like, El Rata Alada. I certainly thought that. How can we not? Goodness. It's a lot. A lot. That was just a fantastic moment. It's the voice Spanish I've ever heard. All right. It's really great. Joe, we have two categories left and they're both big ones for you. I'm excited for them as well. but it's really joecore here at the end.

We're talking music. It's a gift. It's a gift. All right. Number nine, favorite musical moment. We had like a ton of needle drops in these episodes. What are you going with? This is a tough one.

Like, because like, little glowworm was like pretty wonderful. That's my runner up. The police was pretty wonderful. But for me, it has to be Yazoo's only you. Yeah? That's what I'm going with. Okay. First of all, that's always going to be my pick whenever it's a needle drop. Like, fringe, the Americans, normal people. I just fucking love it. I was going to say,

I can't hardly wait, the Americans, normal people. Also, I think I'm sure I've embarrassingly told you that I was in an acopal group in college. And we sang that. I don't know that embarrassing. And we sang this song. So if you ever want like the background. Do you have a recording? Can you send it to me? No. But if ever often. Mike, you want me to, like, do the ba-da, blah-da-bada background, you know. I do. Let's do it right now. All I needed was love you gave. There's just like a synth breakdown in that song

where it's like, ba-da-ba-ba-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, it's a great song. It's a great song. Anytime it's deployed in a show, it works. Any time. But the specific, like, A's coming back from, leaving his brothers locked in a flooding hatch.

And this is playing as he just like hugs his mom. And he's like, only you, only me, just the two of us forever. It's fine. All I ever knew. Only you. Great stuff. Okay. I wonder if we'll have the same for our final category, which is Fitlord slash wigwatch.

Rich text. I mean, the ongoing mulubification of Sophia's hair cannot be ignored. but my talk to me about this please. Well, I mean, it's just... Where are you on the party mullet? Oh, well, you love it. Because, you know, she went from like the shag to the full bones of the mullet. The shag was...

I miss the shag was more, I would say, conventionally, aesthetically, a pleasing. I just really like the boldness of the mullet. Like, and also I like to imagine that she did that to herself. Like, very Azula at the end of Avatar, like in the mirror thinking about her mom. I just sort of making boldness. decisions with the scissors. So on the mullet front,

it's her whole look when she went to go see Gia, she's got the mullet, she's got a fur, a dramatic fur, and then many dramatic furs that she wears. And then she looked in the mirror and she said, okay, I've done the

thick black line, my usual. But that's not enough for this scenario. So I've added a double thick purple liner above the black liner. It's a look. It's incredible. It's giving maternal. It is.

It really is. I'm definitely not the villain that killed your family. It's a great look. I loved it. It's sensational. Pre-mullet, I really enjoyed when she – because it seemed to me like she was going through her mother's closet, right? Is that how?

Yeah. So when she drapes herself in the fur and then it's cascading off one shoulder. Yeah. Yeah. And the scars are visible. She's launching the Gigante family at the table. That was really great.

The mullets just astonishing. A series of like negligee-esque tops. Like it's just a lot of spaghetti straps and lace and satin and fur from the absolute shit show style icon that is Sophia Gigandie. say. I love Darmes. I mean, I'm going to give, I'm staying on Sophia, but I'm going to give the award actually to Francis for the quote you already shared. Like, what are you going to do next? Dyer hair pink, get an ass tattoo? Who knows? Do we talk about, do we have time for it in the finale? Maybe. I hope. We've already built the tattoo parlor set. It's just sitting there. That's right. Empty ever since. It took some damage. RIP, you know.

Oh, Taj. I was really worried about Taj when, you know, the fresh the fresh ink and they like knock them down into the pavement. I'm like, man, that's going to it's going to hurt. It's going to be infected. Didn't matter. It's going to end. They sealed it all in with a nice sear. We don't have time for any aquifer. No, nothing. Didn't matter. How's your tattoo feeling? Doing great. I'm absolutely loving it. I love it too. Yeah. Loving it. If anyone's like, what the fuck are you talking about? We got matching tattoos. We did. We put the Apple Wars onto our bodies forever. We can see our photos on Instagram. I love mine. I love my. I love yours. I love mine as well. I can't show it right now because I have a sweatshirt on.

But yeah, it's doing, it's doing great. It looks great. I love it. I'm ready for another. Okay. Let me know. We'll go back. Oh, man. Okay. We did it. Anything else on the Penguin episodes five, six and seven? Anything else on the finale to come? Yes. We'll be back in mere days for more penguin talks. Near moments. I'm really excited for that. I just want to say, as ever, Mallory Rubin, I enjoy these episodes so much more after having talked to you about them. I love doing this podcast with you and I love, I kind of wish schedule had permitted for us to do this

as like a week to week watch. Me too. I think I would have enjoyed everything a lot more if I had gotten to talk to you about it every week but I'm really excited to dig into the finale with you. We may or may not have a special guest for that episode. We're going to see if that pans out. Is it Johnny Viti?

From the great? Yeah, Michael Kelly. Michael Kelly. Tell us what it means to be a made man and then just like gone the next second. Oh, wonderful stuff. All right. We did it?

We did. We deserve a happy life, don't we? Just like Francis. You can dance while you think about it, but that's a wrap. That's a wrap on today's pod. Thank you to our family, Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgapal for his additional production supervision, Jomea Denneron, for his work on the social. And on the video front today, Stefanosan.

Legend. John Richter. Award winning. The award winning, John Richter. Congratulations to John for his Signal Awards win for transmissions from Colony One. We're so proud. Most innovative audio experience. John, you did it.

We're thrilled. Yeah. So cool. And today, additional video assistance from Alea. Oh. Hey, Leia. Yeah. Yay.

We're honored. Thrilled. All right. We will see everybody at the end. the week for a podcast about something about stuff that we're excited to talk about and at the top of next week for the penguin finale until then jesus sophia pick a fucking lane