House of R - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 4 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 16, 2022

Joanna and Mal journey to Middle-earth once again to talk about the latest episode of 'The Rings of Power.' They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (7:45). Then they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details and character moments (14:57). Later, they discuss some of their theories about the mysterious characters throughout the show (1:44:29). Finally, they take a dip in the Forbidden Pool and look ahead to what potential book spoilers might mean for the future of the show (2:04:19). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail] Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone. This is Chris Ryan from The Ringer. As many of you have heard by now, we lost a treasured colleague and friend over the weekend. Jonathan Charks passed away on Saturday. John was 34. He leaves behind a wife and a son, and we are obviously mourning his loss and sending all of our love to his family right now. If you go to the ringer.com slash Jonathan Charks, that's J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N-T-J-A-R-K-S. You will find a memorial page for John, which has links to his GoFundMe that benefits his family. family, and the amazing writing he did throughout his experience. I encourage you to go there, and if you can, please support the Charks family. Briefly, I will just say that John was among the first people that we hired to work for the ringer, so he was instrumental in defining the voice and perspective of the site. He has as much to do with what this place is as anyone else. And throughout his experience with Cancer, John communicated eloquently about the challenges he was

facing, both through his writing and his podcasting. You could never stop John from talking about his passions. It's one of the things I loved about him. Over the last few months, you know, whenever we would talk, whenever I would reach out to see how he was doing, I would try to keep it very John focused, and the next thing I knew we would be talking about James Hardin or Better Call Saul. He really loved this stuff. He loved talking about it, celebrating it, debating it, illuminating it. We're going to keep putting out our pods and writing while we grieve, but we wanted to let folks know that John was in our hearts and that his family was in our thoughts. Thanks for listening. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters.

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or visit Trimfaya Radio. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer.

You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. There's no sword. The beautiful return of him like that. If you heard a sour off. Welcome into the Ringerverse, your Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. I hope you had your headphones on for that opening clip and you were ready for some creepiness because here we go into rings of power. I'm so excited to be here today.

I'm Joanna Robinson joining me as always. The only member of my fellowship that I need. It's Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. Oh, Joe. Have you heard of House of R? I love Waldrick we're going to get into as we go, but like that guy's accent, it's a power.

Be heard of Sauron. So excited to be here to talk to you about Rings of Power episode four. Before we get into all of that and our deep dive into lore, et cetera, let's do some quick, quick programming reminders. There's a lot, a lot, a lot going on. So, rings of power. It's Friday. It's rings of power day. That's great. Saturday, Mint Edition, coming in Minty Fresh with a Harley Quinn wrap up. Harley Quinn, one of my favorite shows of all time. So excited to hear Stephen Jomey talk about that. Sunday, Mallory and I will be back with Chris Ryan to do Talk the Thrones. Tuesday, Mallory and I will be back again to do House of our Deep dive on House of the Dragon. And then Wednesday, the Midnight Boys, a Poooo! And that's a blaster sound this time. We'll be here to talk about. and or a show we're very excited about. I haven't seen it yet. I cannot wait to watch it. There's a lot of hype around this show. Really excited to tune in for the Midnight Boys. So they did, if you,

if you haven't listened, they did a sort of, they did a rogue one rewatch and, and sort of prep episode. That was really fun this week. So that's also in the feed. So Mallory, gosh, there's so much. How can folks keep on top of it? Well, Joe, I'm so glad you asked. If you are my wonderful mother, Sherry, you can just text me every time a new episode of TV airs and say, send me the link. I'm ready for the pod. For everyone else, you can follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And also, follow the ring of verse across our myriad social feeds. We're everywhere.

We're on Instagram. We're on Twitter. We're on TikTok. I'm Mallory. Joe. If folks want to send us there, their thoughts, their theories, their lore dives, whatever, if your mom wants to email me directly to talk to me about taking you to the optometrist. Where can we be reached?

You're going to hear from her after that, I assure you. Send us your emails. Send us your scrolls. Send us your theories. Send us your insights. Hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Once more, that's hobbs and dragons at gmail.

Um, uh, spoiler warning. Yes. As, as we've mentioned before, it's quite complicated on Rings of Power. We try to simplify it. Three rings for the elves as the, as the poem goes. First Ring, uh, you know, it's just talking about the show that we just watch. Episode four of Rings of Power. However, as we've mentioned many times, Mallory and I rewatch the Peter Jackson films every year.

We've also read the Tolkien books. So we're not going to go too deep into the lower corners in that first section, but we're not going to pretend like we didn't watch the Jackson films many times or read the books at all. So that's the first section. Ring one. Safest ring. Slightly more perilous, but really fun is a ring two. Speculation ring. A lot of juice and ring two this week, I promise you.

I think you should come join us. That's just no spoilers. We don't know. This is where we're playing a guessing game sort of based on book lore that we're. we know and a lot of emails from you guys that's helping us out that are helping us out this week. So that's ring two. And then ring three, full blown z spoilers, everything's on the table. This is stuff we know is coming. This is stuff we're kind of holding back from people who might want to not know about sort of the bigger twists and turns of this second age story that

was laid out by Tolkien many a years ago. So one, two, three, we will give you warning every time we move from one ring to the next. Join us wherever you feel comfortable. We're so happy you're here. And he also want to say, Mallory, before we go into our opening snapshot. You already noted this, but ring two is popping. It's the place to be. This is turned into an incredible theory show. And people on the internet are having so much fun speculating about what will come in the ensuing weeks and ensuing seasons of the show. It's been really a blast to parse not only the interactions and the quotes in the language, but inflections, looks.

It's a rich puzzle. Join us. Tiny lore clues. Yeah. So I think, I will say this. Again, there's no spoilers. We don't know what's coming, but the J.D. and Patrick, the showrunners of the show, have done something really inventive in terms of taking a story that a lot of people know,

that, again, Tolkien laid out the major beats of years ago and somehow making it also a mystery Box show? Like, that's, that's wild. So we've got a lot going on in Ring 2. Really recommend you join us there. It's really fun. Let's start with our opening snapshot. A long expected party. Every section's name for a chapter from the book. So here we go. The Great Wave, written by Stephanie Folsom, J.D. Payne, Patrick McKay, directed by Wayne J. Yip. So this is, JD and Patrick, the showrunners, we've mentioned a few times, have co-authorship on this episode. Stephanie's great. Stephanie wrote paper girls, you know, the recent since canceled TV show adaptation.

She wrote on Toy Story, like she wrote on Thor Ragnarok. Like, Stephanie's a great writer. So, and this is a great episode. That's my take on the episode. Mallory, did you like the great way? I had a blast. I'm loving this show. This has been such a treat every single week.

It is such a rich and layered text. There is so much to just lose your way. yourself and enjoy in terms of the lore and the depth of the world building, the character histories. I love what this is achieving, not only as a story in a vacuum, but as a prequel, as something that exists as this key plank on this large bridge of story, where I am not only not sweating the fact that I know certain outcomes, having watched the movies and read the books that you mentioned in our intro, but feel that I'm gaining a really richer understanding of how

these characters will connect. And so much of, I think, what will come up in today's episode is discussing fathers, ancestors, forebearers, the legacy of the past and the weight that that is having on the characters we're watching now, that is always so rewarding and so interesting as a viewer or a reader. And we get here not only the pleasure of understanding and mining that, that's what we're mining. That's what we're digging into the mountain for.

But to then think about how the characters we're watching here become those forbearers for the characters we already know so well further down in the timeline. It's just a really wonderfully immersive show and story. I'm having a blast. I'm at my usual mid-season despondence point of just being really sad that this is almost over because I don't want it to end.

I just want to talk about it with you forever. So I hope that season two is going to be arriving really soon. Like, let's pencil it in for next fall. Meet you here next fall. What do you think? I hope so, but I'm worried. It takes a while. One does not simply rush into season two of rings of power.

So we'll see. Yeah, and I love what you said about that idea, the connected tissue of generations. Last week's episode was titled Adar, which is elvish word for father. And a lot of people pointed out all the father stuff that's in last week. So we get some more of it here as well.

The story road goes ever on, Mallory. And I'm so excited to be on it with you. We wanted to mention one thing. I always like in these opening sections to sort of pay attention. Adar we mentioned was a very significant title last week. I like to pay attention to the episode title names. The Great Wave is the title of this episode. Very clear immediately what that might be on the surface in reference to this vision of a great wave that comes to Miriel and also then to Galadriel.

But we wanted to just talk briefly about the meeting of this title for Tolkien. Tolkien had this recurring nightmare of a great wave. In one of his letters, he says, The Terrible Recurrent Dream, beginning with Memory of the Great Wave, towering up and coming in, intellectually, over the trees and green fields, I bequeathed it to Faramere. So Faramir, in the books, has this great wave dream, but this was like a repeated, constant nightmare dream for Cher Tolkien.

Mallory, like, what does that mean to you, knowing? that this is something that has, I mean, obviously, we're going to get into this a little bit more in some of the later rings, but like, what does this mean to you knowing this is something that haunted Tolkien, like, since childhood? So we love to chat about signs and portents. Portents and signs, maybe. Portents and signs. And that is a very present through line of this episode and of this season. So far, we get time with a Palantir in this episode. We open on this vision. it is not only something that is hanging over the character or something that we can feel this weight guiding, but something that they actively discuss with each other, and it is heavy, and it is harrowing.

And when you learn about that actual aspect of Tolkien's real life and real experience, then it feels even more burdensome and cumbersome of a thing to carry. And so what I really love then about returning to the text with that in mind and digging up a passage where Faramir in the book is espousing this, is speaking about this idea, is that it is this doom and gloom and this sense of creeping evil. But as is so often the case, there's that light within. There's that glitter. There's that hope that you can hold on to as a beacon. I won't read the entire passage because of some. stuff that might be better put in rings two or three, but I'll just share like the last couple lines, which I think are fair game here. Then you think this is from Return of the King, the text. Then you think that the darkness is coming, said Ayewan. Darkness unescapable. And suddenly she drew close to him. No, said Faramir looking into her face. It was but a picture in the mind.

I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has be fallen and we stand at the end of days, but my heart says nay, and all my limbs are light and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. And that just feels like the perfect blend of impulse and instinct, competing often inside of yourself in the conversations that you're having with someone else when you're imploring them to join you on a quest that part of you knows might fail. How do you move forward? You have to hold on to that. Great glitter. We're going to talk so much about that concept of light and dark, which again, like a lot of these Tolkien concepts seem so basic and so plain. But the way in which he deploys them and the way in which Jady and Patrick are sprinkling it throughout the show is, I think, really rich and deep.

And I love that you plucked out that Faramere passage because what is happening in that moment, this is part of the courtship of Aowen and Faramere, which happens in the, you know, unfolds beautifully in the book, is sort of yada yada yada over in the Jackson films. It's a part of the book that I really love. And so it's that idea of like, in the face of darkness, what is what is the source of the light? What is worth hanging on to? And this sort of like burgeoning love flame that is growing between these two characters, these two heroic characters who have always deserved better and more attention than they've gotten in their family is like a really beautiful moment.

So love you, Mallory. Love that you did that. All right. Let's go into our deep, deep dive into episode four. This is, we're calling it Helmsdeep into episode four. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business.

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You love Theo. You're always saying how much you love Theo. Waldrick's my family. Burning me with Theo and Bormann Barathia this week. Anyway. Oh, God. No, Waldrick is obviously my guy. But, yeah, the show starts with Numerar.

We're going to start with Arondir, Adar, Bronwyn, and Theo. We mentioned in last week's episode that due to her failing eyesight, Mallory Rubin was able to clearly peer through the fuzziness that was at our point out that it was Joseph Mall, an actor well-known to Thrones fans for playing Benjinn, Cold Hands, Stark. Here we meet him, we find out conclusively sort of what we could see through squinting, which is that he is a dark elf and somehow the father of these orcs. What did you make of this introduction, Mallory Rubin? This was interesting in so many different ways. First of all, this is not particularly important. So I don't know why I'm starting with it. But because you mentioned cold hands, it's like, oh, it kind of looks a little bit like

cold hands still with like the facial scarring and the puckering of the cheeks. Yeah, exactly. But obviously we see those elf ears quite prominently. Once again, as was the case, before we could see him in full in episode three, we understood this reverence, this worship that we hear about. We see the orcs parting for him the way that they bowed down, this reception that is more for a deity or a would-be deity than simply a leader.

And our real first introduction to him is through the whispers in the prior episode, but when we get to see him here now in the flesh, it's this fascinating ritual where he is above a dying, orc and is in tears. Move to tears. Tender. There's this exactly this real unsettling tenderness on his face as he blesses this

orc with the sweet release of death. And Arandere watches all of this with great interest. And ultimately they have a fascinating exchange about not only their shared history. And I know you have a little geography lesson coming for us, which I am excited for you attempt on a podcast. Podcast. Maps are visual, and I think you're going to crush it,

and I can't wait. But one of the things that I love in Rings of Power and love across Lord of the Rings of lore is when drastically different characters and drastically different storylines connect thematically. And I don't think that we would say based on anything we've really seen so far

or would expect to see the future that Adar reminds us of Duren, for example. But, or the Harfuts. Of course not, right? But there's this through line of the way that they discuss the earth and the natural world. And you've been paying such close attention and pointing out on the pods these aspects of environmentalism that are manifesting and surfacing in the story. And so I was really struck to couple like that idea with the subcreators insight that you made last week on our last chat. when Adar was talking to Arandir about the lies that he'd been told,

and he says some run so deep even the rocks and roots now believe them. That rocks and roots idea, this idea of the ground beneath you and around you as this conscious, sentient, living, breathing thing makes me think again of the hobbits or the harfoots and their fresh-tilled earth and the way that they seek to live off the land. Or Disa resonating, singing to the mountain to hear it, singing her plea. But of course, these are inverted ideas. Because what do Adar and the orcs and the armies of Sauron and evil do? They cover, they blanket that earth in shadow and darkness.

And they're smothering it and stifling it. And the characters that we root for that will ultimately attempt to combat that evil seek to nurture and grow. And so I think that's just a really cool thing to continue to track across these episodes is where those characters and Arrondyar is, character who's been introduced to us as a grower, nurturer, receiving those seeds. And so to put these characters who have this, a thing that they would see about the world in the same way, but then completely flip it in terms of how they actually go about putting something into motion, I just love. I love that.

I love the Roots and Rocks moment that he has here. And this idea of, like, lies and memory can be tied to the physical earth itself. There's this passage from fellowship where, Legolas, they're actually passing through Aregion, which is like where Calibranbor is right now. And stuff's going to happen and civilizations rise and crumble, right? But Legolas says, the trees and the grass do not now remember the elves of Aregion. Only I hear the stones lament them. Deep they delved us.

Fair, they wrought us. High they builded us, but they are gone. This idea of the memory of the stone outliving the humans, the elves, the dwarves, of that. Well, and we'll get, we'll get back to that in a little bit, too. But when they're, okay, first of all, I also want to say, I think the design of Adar is incredible because he's wearing this beautiful elf armor, but it's dark. It's almost like it almost looked like navy blue to me, like almost like he's like a night elf is, oh, you know, that's not a technical term. But I loved his breastplate, which seemed like it had like a river motif on it. And then he had the,

The male that he was wearing was very similar to Galadriel's in that it had like the stars on it and the glittered, but it glittered in darkness as well. And I just, I thought it looked incredible. And he has this fist of death. Yeah. That he's got a real, terrifying. Sarani looking fist. But he, he's bonding with Arrondir. He's like, soldier.

Where are you from? I love that he called him Soldier. Something about that. I really loved. And Arondier said. he's from Ballarian. And so, yeah, this is where we're going to try to do a geography lesson on a podcast. Good luck to me.

We got a lot of emails, actually, about this, where they're like, can you orient us to the world we're in? I'm going to try to do this very briefly, but overall, I urge you to go to LOTR project.com slash map, where they've got great maps, interactive maps, all this sort of thing. But essentially, Ballerian is sort of what the northwest of me. Middle Earth was, and then the War of Wrath, where Galadryl, like we saw in the prologue that happened the first stage where Galadryl's brother was fighting. A result of that is that Ballerian like sunk into the ocean. So talk about a great wave, like part of the continent crumbled into the ocean.

And so when you look at how Middle Earth looks now, all that's left of Ballerian is Linden. And Linden, if you look at the map of Middle Earth, I always think of it as sort of West. Western Europe and most of it is France. I don't know why I think of it, but that's how I've always thought about it. So, Lyndon would be the northwest top point of France. That's where Lyndon is. Aragian, and that's also where the Shireish is, is in, like, central France. And then Gondor is down in sort of, like, south of France.

And then we move over. Sorry, this is so silly. Rohan is like where Switzerland would be. And then Mordor and all of that sort of stuff is where Italy would be. So that's like, forget Spain. It's not part of this. But like France, Switzerland, Italy. And then the Merckwood Forest is Germany.

And that kind of tracks. I didn't look into whether or not Tolkien intended this to be some sort of analog. We know he hates allegory. But the idea that like the Italians were not allies during. World War II makes sense that like mortar would be sort of down there, the forest of Germany, the forest of Merkwood, Rohan being sort of like, do we fight or do we not being a sort of Switzerland area? And then, you know, France is where everything else is happening. I don't know. It's always how I thought of it. But anyway, I would really recommend you go look at lotr project.com.

It'll help you track where we are relative to everything. But just so you know, the continent just keeps changing and shifting. So what really matters here is that Arondere is talking about a land that no longer exists. And Adar shares his memory of it. And he says, I remember the banks were covered in sage blossoms. Again, this beautiful like floor and faunitide memory. And then we get a little bit more hints from Adar about sort of like what he has in mind, what he wants to do here. He doesn't, you know, monologue endlessly where we get some hints. Like, what do you make of what's going on here, Mallory? Well, I was alarmed, as I think we're supposed to be,

because he says to untangle it all. All these lies that we've been told, Joe, would require, quote, the creation of a new world. But that is something only the gods can do, and I am no God. Not yet. Dun-da-da-da.

And again, it made me think of the sub-creators, conversation from last week and how we were trying to reconcile within the text, inside of the text and in this meta sense, this support and encouragement for nurturing something, trying to build something, taking that step out the door to have the adventure and embrace it in the first place, and then what is the tipping point? And we landed on this nefarious control, this desire to control. and the way that that kind of pursuit of power in that form corrupts and calcifies. And that's all right there on the surface here.

It's just saying it out loud. That's the thing that he wants to do is to go beyond anything that would be in the bounds of the natural order and move beyond anything that would be desirable or precious or pure. There's no fellowship here. there's no seeking to come together as the elves and dwarves might to build something on a very precise and tight schedule. A lot of Google Cal alerts popping in.

Are you on track? Are you on track? But to become something that no one should seek to be. A god, yeah. This was the episode where, and of course this has been, you know, this is embedded into the text of this story, this sorrow of what we know awaits with Sauron and with Mordor and the fates of certain realms of men.

But this was definitely the stretch of the story where I started to really think about the parts of the map that you just sketched out or the large swaths of characters who are going to be subsumed by that shadow. If you extend, like, Adar seems protective of his, like, orc children, as you outlined in this sort of farewell that he gives to one of his dying children. We know that the orcs are super photosensitive. They can only come out, they mostly come out at night mostly, and they, you know, they hiss at the sun, essentially.

So, yep. So, Adar in his thoughtfulness for his, like, photosensitive orcabies and also the Mallory Rubens of the world. Does he want you cover all the lands in a second darkness as we hear, you know, Gandalf and tone about Sauron? We'll talk about that more in a different ring, but I just think that that has to be related. Let's go to my best friend in the world, Theo. Mallory, what did you message me about Theo when you first watched this episode? I believe I said is Theo eight feet tall now. Shocking.

The full Brad Stark. The full bike wheeler. The full waltz from Lost. Basically, there was a long COVID pause between the first couple episodes they shot for this season and this episode. And so the young actor who plays Theo has had a gross spurt.

So he is a lengthy child. Lengthy. I meant to say lanky, but also, I guess lanky. which means it's, I guess, harder to hide when you're tall because he has some difficulty hiding himself from these orcs in this village that he goes to get supplies from. What did you think of his strategy of, like, go down a well?

How did you feel about that? Before we even get to that, I would just like to once again say there have to be better options for friends in the Southlands than Rowan, we learned his name was. Yeah. What a piece of shit this is. guy is instantly bounces quite rude in prior episodes about Theo's mysterious missing father. And they actually, the thing is Theo was, listen, let's say it.

Give him credit where it's due before we dunk on his ability to hide and evade detection. He was right. There was a lot of food there. Everyone's starving up in the watchtower. And he had the courage. Now, paired with some hubris and misplaced bravado. but he ultimately had the courage and the wisdom to say, let's go, let's hit that root cellar,

and found the food. And then his pal, as soon as he says, should we go into the tavern, there might be more, is like, absolutely not. And then just fucks off also by. Side of trouble. And then when he gets back to the watchtower, and Brodman's like, where's Theo?

He says, he was right behind me. You love this guy. He'd get over this guy. You love this guy. I think that terrible things are probably going to befall of this character. He seems really ripe for some sort of corruption. Yeah. My goodness.

Yeah, it's really interesting. We find out through some very convenient peas and carrots orchatter that the thing, the sword, I guess it's not a sword according to Waldrick, but the thing that Theo has is the item that they're looking. for that they've been sort of tunneling around and burying around looking for and they know that Theo has it. He uses it. It bites him. Well, he shoves it into his forearm to feed it blood. Very cool.

A purposeful moment where he uses the base of the hilt to like pierce his skin. And I was wondering, actually, did you read that as it's just instincts now that he knows it feeds on blood? Or do you think that the blade is communicating with him in some way? Like now that they have this blood tie and I think oaves and blood oaths are going to come up again on the pod later today. Like is there not a spoken one, but is there this blood tie now between Theo and this object? It certainly seems so. I think it's sort of similar to the ring where like Frodo would want to put the ring on, but also it would seem like the ring wanted to hop on Frodo's finger at the same time. Do you know what I mean? That sort of like and it would, you know, that sort of whisper idea. So I don't think it's, you know, that sort of whisper idea. So I don't think it's, saying like, Oi, Theo, shove me old hilt into your arm and then I can work,

you know, but I think it's like, that's what Waldrick saying to him later though. It's like, keep doing your stretches. Keep the gatorade on hand. Get lots of protein

and complex carbs. I need you ready, lad. When Sauron calls. Sauron. A genuinely terrifying exchange between the two of them, comparing their forearm scars. And,

And the way that Waldrick said to him, it is no sword. It is a power fashioned for our ancestors by his master's own hand, the beautiful servant. He who is lost but shall return. Have you heard of a blood? Have you heard of Sauron? I was legitimately spooked watching this. Theo was spooked in real time. There's this like, we talked so much in our first episode about the score and it was

incredible in this episode as a emotional compliment to every key moment. And it was working here to make me like incredibly uneasy. But this idea, it is no sort. So we know the Hilt has what we thought was a sigil and learned was a map. We know that Waldrick, the barkeep slash mayor, who has now been searched by Bronwyn, slash potato and his tubel bastard.

Yeah, so our salty rascal revealed at last. How did he, he, to be in possession of this blade. How far back does this history trace? Is this connected, given the Halbran tie to the Southlands, to this blood oath that we heard Halbrin mention to Galadriel in episode three, this blood oath to Morgoth. And I think what's so interesting is that about Waldrick as a character, not just the way he says power, but also, he's a power, but also.

The fact that if you go back and watch the scenes where Ron Deer comes and do his bar slash butchery slash whatever, Waldrick is being almost like ingrati-he, he's ingratiating himself. You know, like he was like the least rude of all those people in that tavern, but he seems to be the most fervently devout that this was just under, right under the surface waiting. Before we get that creepy Waldrick scene, though, we get Arondur playing the hero last second. Theo, I bet you are embarrassed now that you hate elves because Arondere just saved your skin. It took him a minute. I mean, when Arondere puts his hand out and is there to rescue him, Theo's like, let me think about it for a minute. I wasn't sure if that's when like the mega slow motion kicked in because then, of course, we get this like slow-mo dash of the woods, strong,

Death of Boromir vibes, of course, as a Rondor's, like, grabbing arrows from the air and shooting the back and all this sort of stuff. Amazing. Beautiful score. Just incredible. The score is incredible here. I, like, one of my watch-throughs through this episode, I was just listening to it, and I was really overwhelmed by the score in this moment as they break the tree line, hit the open meadow, the sun rises. Bronwyn is with them, and they are safe in the light, and the orcs have to stay in the shadow. and the way that the sun is framed behind them reminds me of two things.

It reminds me of that first shot we get of the trees in Valenor, just a beautiful sort of like grassy hill with the gorgeous light. So the sun is cresting the meadow behind them. And then also, and we're going to talk about this again later, of course, but like Sam fending off Shilob with the light of Arendiel, like, and just, you know, that beaming light that holds the monsters at bay. And I just thought this was a really powerful moment. How did you feel about it?

I completely agree. The score call out here is this. This is probably the spot if we had to isolate one in the episode because of the way it moves so organically into. It's a Disa. Disa. Yeah. Just like full body chills. It was incredible.

The, before I answer your very important and emotionally mature question, I will just make a brief tangent to say that I thought it was so funny that Arandere, who was on this mission to deliver this message. So presumably he will find a way forward no matter what. It's like, Theo, go. I got this really focused on the task at hand, catching the arrow shooting them. But as soon as Bronwyn arrives, he's like, I'm coming with you. Yeah. Oh, your hot mom is here? Cool. I got such a kick out of that. Yeah, the flooding of the screen with the light. I agree. It powerfully evoked the way we crests over the hill and see the light from the two trees in the opening. And I think, you know, we talked at length in our first pod about that opening prologue.

And the further that we get into the story now, the clearer it is that it's no accident that so much of our initial time with not only Galadriel, but with the show, centered on this idea of darkness and light. And characters taking the time to reflect on whether they can. can tell the difference and what it means if they can't. And so when you get this very clear divide, the orcs on this side of the screen are heroes on this side, the light as this barrier between them that one of them simply cannot breach, that's a very powerful image for what it is showing us about those groups, but I think just as powerful for what it reminds us about other characters where we cannot see that clearly which side of the light they would fall on. So I love those images and it's been one of my really truly one of my, I mean, the show is gorgeous.

It looks gorgeous. It sounds gorgeous. The language is beautiful. It's wonderful. This has been one of my favorite things across the four episodes because it is so deliberate and intentional and is such a helpful orienting principle for us. But actually, to me, I'm like an easy mark for this stuff for the target audience. It doesn't feel heavy-handed to me. It really feels like It's powerfully reinforcing key ideas. Bronwyn all the while, before she goes into the woods, but throughout this episode, she's doing like a solid A-plus A-O-Win at Helm's deep impression of just, like, ushering the before-door refugees into Austerite.

And Arundira brings the message, you know, swear allegiance to Adar and clear out of here or die. And that's all I have to say about that, except Waldrick, my guy, come join us in ring two for your theory that the meteorosauron. Waldrick, send us your emails for waiting. Thomas and Dragons at Gmail.com. Show us your supporting evidence. Do you think the meteor is Sauron? Tell us more.

Oh, my God. I love it. All right. Let's go now to Numenor. This is where we're checking in with Galadriel, Halibran, and the Numerians. We get this little, speaking of, you know, Aowin and Faramir, kind of reminded me of this, this is a little budding romance between Isielder's sister, Aiarian, and Kemen, who is Farisand's son. And these are two show-invented characters.

And so they just enjoy this little, like, flirtation. They have a little dinner date. Like, how do you feel about these two? Are you hopeful for these crazy kids? Okay, two things. one, strategically smart to pair show inventions together like this. I'm sure that their plot lines will interact, of course, with canonical book characters. But this is savvy at this point in the tale.

I ship it. I have to say, I thought that the I'm not in the habit of going off with strange young men, very wise. If I see any, you'll be the first to know, was pretty smooth. Kevin's smooth. He's smooth. And he's like all. I'll do your guild intern, like, grunt work with you to get this date.

A man who's, like, ready to smoothly flirt and help with the chores? Yeah. I'm in. I'm for it. I'm for it. Aaron says this very interesting thing. She says, my troubles have been too hard one when he sort of suggests she drink her troubles away with him. And that's, you know, there's something haunting Elendiel's family and his children.

And so, you know, which is slowly being unfurled to us. The next clue we get on this front is that a seal door after intentionally getting himself fired from the Seagard, because he's just listening to mysterious female voices on the wind like we all do. Also happens to get his buds, Melendiel and Entamo also kicked out of the Seaguard. Belandale is deeply pissed. Yeah. And one of the accusations, one of the. accusations, one of the real mean accusations he loves at Aseldor is that he's just blubbering about his dead mother all the time.

This was not nice. This was not great. Beyond the pale. Valendial has some room to stand on here with his complaints. What do you think of this little fight here? So I love these like slow motion, the voice, but also the land and the promise of the West is calling to me stretches that we've had with the seal door, obviously like deliberate parallels and repetition of language, shots, framing across the episode so far. And the fact that he is a

character who is ready and actually eager to succumb to those calls is obviously a very crucial thing. The fact that he is also a character who makes decisions that have real instant collateral damage for the people around him is also an important thing to establish right away with this character. So I think they're doing a lot of strong setup right away. We had a couple, we talked last time about like establishing quickly this really sweet and charming and lived in brother, sister bond. We got more of that right away in this episode. We didn't have, I loved the father, children, allendial scenes in the last episode and would have loved to have more of them here as well. We get a couple like knowing glances.

when Aseldor joins the volunteers at the end to go with Mariel to take Galadryl. Fourth, I, you know, again, in the preseason pods when we were breaking down the trailers, I said that I was most eager to spend time in Numenor. I think in the process of watching the show, I've been most fully gripped by Elrond so far. But Numeror is, I could probably watch 40 hours

just with this family and not tire of it and still be eager at the end for more. Like I am really genuinely curious about what happened with their mother. What are we have these little clues and these little morsels and it's enough to give us the emotional resonance of what they're experiencing and what Aseldor is seeking. And the way that that doesn't surprise his sister and actively frightens his father. Yeah. I just, I'm like again, when I think that there are only four episodes left, like Isil Dore is a character who I feel sad already. about not getting more time with.

This idea of this pull of the West, like he is looking at the West shore of Numenor when they're out of the water. That's where the voice is coming from, as he's looking off. His brother Anarion, as we mentioned last week, a very important book character,

the other half of the Argonath statues, is presumably in the West where he believes the real Numenor is. there's this idea that like the elf friends, the elf faithful are in the West. And they're in the capital city where their father, Alendiel, has decided for the survival of their family

because the common sentiment is anti-Elf, that they need to sort of mask their elf friend beliefs in order to not get in trouble in the capital. That's my read on everything that's going on here. I was for that reason, I was really struck in there are a lot. of just quick little delicate moments like this to tell you so much. Before Muriel brings her back, when Galadio initially boards the vessel, Elendiel speaks to her in Elvish, go in peace.

Certainly in view of an earshot of others, but felt like an important enough thing for him in that moment to risk. You mentioned this relationship between a Stildor and Iyarion, and I just think it's like one of the immediately richest stories, this brother-sister dynamic. The two of them have just this quick, beautiful scene. But I want to shout out, and again, podcasting is not a visual medium. But if you go back and look at their little dinner scene, behind them on the wall is this exquisite but crumbling mural of men and elves fighting together against some sort of sea monster or sea monsters theories in a second. But someone else pointed out to me that, like, if you, like, you know, this thriving, beautiful metropolis, gorgeous, gorgeous architecture everywhere. But there's just a few places that look like they're in decay, like the arches around the white tree of Nimloth also are, like, decayed and covered moss.

So it feels like all the elf-centric stuff, which would be like the architecture around the tree or this mural that depicts the, alliance of elves and men is in disrepair in Numenor. And so to keep your eye out for the evidence of a history that the current leadership would prefer not to dwell on or maintain, as for that creature, and hobbits and dragons at gmail.com is where you can send me your emails if I get this lore horribly wrong. But I was trying to figure out who this sea creature might have been. And the best idea I came up with is the watcher or the watcher in the water, which is the name of the creature that attacks Frodo and the fellowship outside of Moria. And you're like, what is that lake monster? Like, what does that have to do with Numeron? But like, there's something what Gandalf says in that moment, he's kind of talking about

Balrog, but he says something has crept or been driven out of the dark water under the mountains. There are older and fowler things than orcs in the deep places of the world. So this idea that this massive mythological water monster that the elves and men fought together, you know, thousands of years ago has come to, you know, attack and attack Frodo first. It knows to attack the ring bearer first, attack them out of the gates of Moria. It could be some other sea creature, sea monster from an unfinished tale that I don't know anything about. So please do let me know.

But like, I just loved that idea. And just the visual. And it's just there. Like the camera's not lingering. on it. And this is the meticulous detail of the show. It's just part of the furniture, but it's telling us a story at the same time.

I love that. And I love that call out of this crumbling facade for those characters in particular to be the ones placed before it. You know, you mentioned last week, well, what does it mean that AARN is entering this apprenticeship?

And we see in this episode, you know, sketching, drawing a door way. Like not only a thing that you would build, but a portal that leads you forward into another room, another world. And that is so palpable with this family already, like the family who won't be afraid to try to forge something new. It's great. That brings us to Halbran. Oh, my God. Who's in, who's in prison? Galadriel calls him the lost heir in exile to the throne of the Southlands. That's what Galadriel is decided.

he is. She's pretty sad on that. She has figured it out. She's cracked the case. She's moved on from Ring 2. She's like, this is definitive. She's like, don't send me your emails. I figured it out.

Muriel says, King or Carpenter, the Southlander will face judgment. That's strong Jesus savior language. Like, king or carpenter, that's okay. But what does Hallibrand have to say for himself? Carlos, please play us this clip. In an instance like this, it seems to me that you do well to identify what it is that your opponent most fears. And exploit it. No.

Give them a means of mustering it so that you can muster them. Um, Malar Rubin, what was your, what's your ring one reaction to this, uh, to this quote here? I genuinely don't know what I can say in Ring 1 about this. Other than that, I found this conversation in full. That line most of all, of course, but this conversation in full designed to put us on our guard. Like, this is pretty overt manipulation. There's nothing subtle about it.

And nothing new for Halibrand, who like unfastened himself from his pals on the raft, you know, is like, has been slippery from the jump. Exactly. And you pair it with like which, which Halbrand image is in line is featured in the previously on. Like, what are we asked to remember from the prior episode,

which was full of new insights? Him reminding her that she doesn't have an army yet and needs to get one. And then we move forward from this conversation into him saying to Farazahn, well, you know, you don't have to worry about trying to, to stop her if you know exactly where she's going. And then Mariel meets Galadriel up in the tower, which we'll obviously talk about separately. So that's a fascinating thing because you could interpret

that here in Ring 1 in actually a number of different ways. You could say, did he sell her out? Is he being selfish? We see him walking free at the end. He's free at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Is possibly as a product of that bargain he struck right there with Farisand? I'll tell you if you let me go, is he acting purely out of self-interest? Or was he helping her to do the very thing he's saying here, which is guiding Muriel to meet her there? The person that Galadriel needs to work in the way that he is instructing her to is there because they, he leads them there.

And by the way, solid advice. Like, in terms of, like, he's not giving Galadriel, it might be morally questionable advice, but he's not giving her bad advice. He is helping her achieve her goal. He is achieving his own goal at the same time to, presumably, to be free. He asks her, he has that great, she's like, will you please stop comparing me to a horse? And he's like, stop trying to get me to leave Numeron, or we've got a deal. Yeah.

I thought he was going to say, well, I'm sorry, but we had a 10-minute slow-mo montage of me riding a horse last week. So you got to wait a couple more weeks to ask that of me. Um, the last shot we see of Hallibrand in this episode is during Miriel's speech. We get many speeches in this episode. And the line that she's saying as we see him wandering free in the streets of Numenor is, is our valor confined to the grays of our slumbering fathers, or is it here amongst us even now ready to burst forth as the rising sun? And so that idea that Galadriel has of lost air and exile to the throne of the Southlands,

like that aligns pretty well with this idea of like, where is your, if you are heir to a throne, if you are an Eragorn figure, Halbrand, is the valor, the valor only of your father's or does it belong to you? And are you ready to access it? You know, we're going to talk about this more later. Moving on to Galadriel and Muriel and Farazan. We start, like, let's go back to the beginning, this great wave. What I love about the great wave dream is that a combination of this Tolkien's obsessive, childhood, nightmare, great wave. But what does it interrupt?

This birthing ceremony, which the show is doing such an exquisite job of showing us all of these rituals and ceremonies and cultures of these various locations because we got the Harfoot Memorial last week, which embedded in it gave us information about Poppy and about just sort of the general mindset of the Harfoot. And then here, inside this... killed by bees they'll laugh at you forever. Tough shit, dude. And here,

here, we have this birthing ceremony interrupted by the wave, the blessing of the children, Muriel calls it. And I'm just astounded by the amount of information they're able to sort of weave in out of these episodes. Do you have anything you want to say about this

notion, new life and numinor? Well, this new life. being washed out instantly by this surge of death in this vision was quite harrowing and quite upsetting. And this is the conflict that is at the heart not only of a character like Muriel, but Numeruor at large. And we have like numerous scenes in this episode. A good portion of this episode is set in Numeranor across different character sets. And we see that this is a place at war with itself.

And in a story about wars between good and evil and different factions, a group that should be coming together to fight, which is the pitch at the very end, what do we have instead? We have our bar brawl guildbro from last episode trying to rally the citizens of Numenor against their queen. We have a character like Farazan going out. And ultimately at the end, he's saying,

this is what your queen has, has, he's commanding her. Supporting her at the end of the episode. Go make it happen. But we have this interlude where he's out there politicking, glad-handed. We hear his own son say, like, there's not a name he doesn't know, right? So all of these different characters are ready. We have to wonder what is their end and what is their agenda. And so in these quiet introspective moments with Muriel

and the conversations that unfold between her and Galadriel across the episode in particular, where this idea of this burden that has been passed down that she has inherited, this vision of what is to come, which begins with Galadriel's arrival, of course made me think about our conversation last week about destiny and choice and how these are entwined, which, I mean, you know, we could honestly,

in the entire pod just parsing what Galadriel and Muriel say to each other about this, but this simultaneous, like this dissonance that they're carrying of feeling truly bound by the weight of this and this need and responsibility, but also desire to protect, whether it's that innocent new life in your arm, your father up in his bed, or the realm that you're sworn to lead. Yeah. And also this deep-rooted fear that every sign you're seeing, everything around you, the elf who just walked onto your shore, the pedal falling off of Nimlath the Fair, is a signal that you made the wrong choice, a signal that you're about to lead people astray. Like, what an incredibly

debilitating way to go about your life. Right. The amount, the, we watch her, like, on first glance, it's, it comes across the sloppy storytelling to put Galadriel on a boat and then have her walk out dramatically during a speech just mere moments later. But I think it's speaks to exactly what you're talking about, which is just like Muriel sort of like paralyzed by this terror that she is going to lead her kingdom to ruin to the great wave. I want to talk about Farisand. Muriel gives this great speech at the end. There's a number of speeches in the show.

I think Farazan gives the best speech that we hear, at least the best performed speech. It's not, I'm not even talking about like actor. I'm just talking about like when you're like, okay, that's a charismatic leader. He has the hearts and minds of the people. I don't agree with what he's saying at all, but, like, this is really compelling. I want to talk about a little bit about the language in his speech, right? Because he says, he mentions the heritage of mighty hands. And I think that that's a really strong contrast to one of Tolkien's most famous lines from Lord of the Rings, which I think it's an L-Rond line, right?

Which is yet such is off the course of D's that move the wheels of the world. small hands do them because they must while the eyes of the great are elsewhere. So Farisand is praising the mighty hands of Numenor when we know that it is Tolkien's ethos that it's the small hands that you want to pay attention to. I love that Farisand seems to give men full credit for defeating Morgoth. He's like, fuck these elves. We defeated Morgoth. No, you've had some help there, my friend.

I also love that he mentions the things that the Newman Orients should take pride in, right? Because they're like, oh, the elves are stealing our jobs. They're come to, like, ruin us, right? And he says, raising our menelos, which is their great city right here, building the seawall. So it's these ideas of industry, which as we've talked about before is abhorrent to Tolkien. Tolkien does not like city planning. He does not like buildings. He does not like industry.

he prefers the good tilled earth that you can shove your hands into. And this whole section where Farisun says, My Friends, by the calluses on my hands, I swear that elven hands will never take Numenor's helm. She will remain as always a kingdom of men drinks all around. I just, the writing on the show is so good, Mallory. So incredible. It's great.

It's subtle. And it's rich. And you can do like, you can. have to spend literally hours getting lost parsing every single word because every single word is super intentional. So can we talk about the thing that I texted you about, which is when Muriel takes Galadryl up to the top of the tower after we see her father, Tower Palantir, is ailing, but still alive.

We go to the top of the tower. There's a whole bunch of stuff in this room. Mallory Rubin, what do we see up there? This was... a big moment for you because you've been on, I mean, you're always on wigwatch. Yeah. But you've been on Narsal Watch since the moment this show started.

I have. And perched against a wall. It's just leaning there in a shot. This was very exciting. This room where the Palantir is set, the seeing stone is set in the center of the room. And then there's just like a bunch of artifacts around the room. There's like a double-headed axe.

There's a helm. There's like, Wings? Question mark? I didn't quite know what that was behind Muriel at one point. But like in one shot, Galadriel is just standing there and there's Narsal, the fame blade that will be broken and reforged and used by Aragon in the final battle. Like, there it is. And we know because, and this, I mean, this is a big question I had in terms of, like, legally, how much is this show allowed to look like the Peter Jackson films? and they're constantly skirting that legal line, I think. This, the pommel of this sword is, I think, and I'm no swordsmith, identical to the one that Vigo Mortensen has in. The color of the alloy, the metal might be slightly different, but the shape is the same.

So there's the Narsal blade. Just gathering dust in a tower. How quickly do you think, Elenzi? deal will grab it? When will it make its way into his hands? That's for a different ring, my friend, for a different ring. You already spoke really eloquently about everything that happens here in terms of like Medial and what she sees and her indecision and this echo of like what Gilgolad said. Gilgallad says for the same wind that ceased to blow out a fire may also cause its spread. And here we get the line avoiding this warm. It be the very thing that brings about your downfall

from Galadryl. So it's that self-fulfilling prophecy sort of doom and gloom for everything. Sounds great. I, again, this is just, this is such a consistently interesting aspect of the show and the text at large to parse. And I love how, I love one of the characters actively engage with this idea. And so when you have a moment like Mirroo saying it has already come to pass, you're here. The vision begins to your arrival. This is it. And she's talking at the weight, this one was past my father and with it a secret of the Palantir, and it made me think of the dagger in Hot D.

Like there's a kind of similar, you were inheriting this message about the future. But then, again, to like actively engage with this idea, you believe I will bring about Numerar's downfall. Only Numeror can bring about her downfall. I heard a rumor that the only thing that could tear down the house of the dragon was itself. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. There were a lot of, the shows are obviously very different, as we and many of our colleagues have discussed at length, but there were a lot of thematic parallels inside of this episode. And, you know, when you have a sequence where Galadriel is experiencing this vision, touching the Palantair, seeing this just a sliver of what weighs on Muriel every minute of every day of her life we can deduce, it's very difficult not to think about the mirror. of Galadriel stretches in Fellowship to Film and Fellowship the Book. And there are pages and pages

that we could read in full that have wonderful insights about, again, this tension, but also this harmony that you can find between choice and some sort of seeming set fate. But I actually wanted to share a passage instead from two towers. It's two of our faves are absolute al-timers, Frodo and Sam. And talking about not knowing the ending, because I think that's also very deeply connected to and rooted in this idea. I wonder what sort of tale we've fallen into, Sam asks. I wonder, said Frodo, but I don't know.

And that's the way of a real tale. Take anyone that you're fond of, you may know or guess what kind of tale it is, happy ending or sad ending, but the people in it don't know and you don't want them to. And I will always think about that when we're watching characters like Galadryl or Muriel or any others think about this glimpse of the future that they have gotten to see because you should not be able to know what awaits. And if you think you do, then what decisions do you know, what decisions do you make to try to avoid that end. You already mentioned the self-fulfilling prophecy that is just so present here throughout.

I love this. I love this. Speaking of parsing the language really closely, Mary-Ela says this line to Galadriel where she says, Faith may bind one heart, Galadriel, but it is too fine a thread from which to hang a kingdom. That is a gorgeous line. What's really interesting is that Jady and Patrick,

when Amazon first announced that the show was coming, and there was a release date, Jady and Patrick sort of like slaved over this little announcement that was just chock full of little Tolkienian Easter eggs. And they said, unlikely heroes were tested, hope hung by the finest of threads. That's a phrase they used in this little announcement. I recommend you go back and read it

because they told me that they just packed that announcement with all kinds of clues. And like, I wrote an article, back when I worked at a different website, sort of trying to analyze it. And they're like, you did okay. They told me. They're like, you did okay, but you still missed plenty.

And I was like, cool. So there's a lot in there. They were like, they were like, you were kind of one of the only ones who bothered to try. But like, you didn't get all the way there. And I was like, okay. But I'm still trying to figure out, like, what that finest of threads phrase means to them.

And I don't feel like I fully crack the case, but there is this line. that Gandalf says in the books where he says, Verily said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, clean and clear. That way lies our hope where sits our greatest fear. Doom hangs still on a thread, yet hope there is still, if we can but stand unconquered for a little wild. Like, I think, I think how we're supposed to think about this is the way that, like, Galadriel,

I think it's Galadryal. It was as, like, you know, this, it hangs on a netherial. knife's edge. Like, we're just, there's a tiny thread, the edge of a knife. Like, one, you know, soft breeze in one direction or the other is going to send us all to rack and ruin. I just, uh, I think that's what they're going for with that. But if there's something I'm missing. The same wind that can either fuel or blow out the, the fire. Like always this, this tipping point. Always just this one little decision. One tiny thing. Anything else we want to say in Numeron?

I mean, we could talk about Numerur for hours. So it's probably better to just to move on. Because I think if we say another thing, we'll just fall deeper into the text and be here for five hours. And I would have a blast. But Carlos and, you know, would yell at us. We're going to do our best. Speaking of a knife's edge, let's go now to the sharp jaw line of one, Elrond. Oh, my God.

So glad. So glad. Dideron and Disa here. That they were back. I really missed them last week. I did. All right, this is the section that it's sort of richest for us in terms of, like, some of those, like, lore-themed deep dives that we like to do.

So we'll hit a couple of those in there. But, like, let's start. We're in a Region. Looks incredible. Like, akin to Numenor, which just, like, is so rich in the way that it's rendered. Every, like, you can, like, if you take a freeze frame of all the shots of Numeror, which, of course, are, like, digitally rendered. But if you zoom in on anything, there's just incredible detail everywhere.

Like, there's so much money in this. show it's insane and um austin edil which is the city in a regian looks like similarly and please forgive my elvish pronunciation um looks similarly like incredible you mentioned caliprimbor's on a schedule what are we making of this this neat this new forge needs to be completed by spring we get in the previously on what are what are you making of that timeline reminder i don't know if any theories that i have on on that are safe for ring one okay do you have any other safe for Ringwan? I just generally, you know I love a theory.

I have no theories about this at all, actually. So I'm excited to... It is notable, though, that we're being reminded of the time frame. Like, this feels like something that will come in to play then by the end of the season of TV, right? I guess. Depending. I mean, you know, as we've mentioned many times, they're massively crunching the timeline on this show. A story that takes place over thousands of years is presumably going to take place over just a few years, maybe.

So I have what completed by spring even means to an elf, let alone Jady and Patrick on this show? I don't know. I have no theories here. Unusual for me. Calibramur also says this really wild thing. He brings up Elrond's father, Arendiel. Guess what? We're going to talk about him today.

And Arendal says to Calibrandeer, one day my future would, Calibran Borr says, one day my future would be in his son's hands. intriguing, ominous. Again, I have no theories, no way to parse this. How are you feeling about this, Mallory? Well, Caliborne looked unsettled as Elrond immediately observes, and they transition quickly into Calibran talking about Duren and the sense that Kellebrun has that Dern is withholding something, which, of course, he is, and we know to be true.

And Elrond will discover what over the course of this episode, though, not completely, because then the Durns are like still scheming in their secret rooms. But that really overt unease made me think again just about the long life of an elf and the kind of wisdom, the things that you forget. And then like if you remember something so far into the future of your life, like how what stretch of history that pulls you through and what that must feel like. But like there were a lot of moments in this episode. that scene, and many of them connect to this larger through line of fathers again,

where, like, when Elrond was talking to Duren and giving him this advice and counsel about finding common ground and reaching out to his father, it struck me that, like, it was the kind of wisdom that Elrond had had the time

to reach and cultivate, that like Duren maybe won't. even though he does then go and speak to his father. And like if you think about the fathers, you know, we've mentioned a lot of them. We talked about,

Adar, the orcs. But this like, the two durans, Alendial and Isildor and Aarean, Miriel and Tarapalentier. The Numenorians and their fathers, their forefathers were broadly.

Because like, you know, I know we've moved on from Numenoran, here I am now going back to the fucking difficult can out myself. But like, that was, that was invoked directly in Muriel's speech at court at the end when she talked about this feat flower, the destinies of man. She talked about, are our hearts become as the statues that surround our aisle or do

they yet beat with the blood of the heroes that carve them? Is our valor confined to the graves of our slumbering fathers? You mentioned this. So you have that. You have Elrond talking not only in this scene with Kelabrimbor about Arendiol, but then talking about him so beautifully to Duren. about the sorrow and the hardship, but also then the beauty and how entwined those things were.

He's in tears. The tears are glistening, like me-thyrid nuggets in his eyes, as he says, you know, when he would look up at the evening sky, at the evening star, and think, would he be proud of what I'd accomplished with his legacy or disappointed by the countless ways I'd failed to live up to it? We have Theo's missing father. We have Halibrand talking about.

his ancestors and the oaths that they made. We had Arandere and the watchwarden in the double premiere talking about the Southlanders and their ancestors and the decisions that they made and that root of evil that still exists inside of them. So just tracing across the storylines and the episodes, this like the weight of the father, it connects more broadly to, again, I think that sub-creator idea and this like religious aspect of the text, your father, your creator, when are you? making something in that image? When do you stray from that path like Adar and the orcs and Sauron

more broadly by trying to make something, you know, made me think of that like meddling with the powers of the unseen world line that we got very quickly up in the fortress in episode one with the orc encased in the stone of the wall? So what do you do when you feel the pressure of that legacy like Elrond did or like Duren does? What do you do in the face of that weight or the Numenorians at large. And I think what's what I appreciate about this show is like very famously, Tolkien didn't have a lot of room in his texts for women, just in general. And you mentioned all these fathers and there are fathers everywhere, but I do like that we have a main character who's a mother, Bronwyn. So often in these stories, it's, and in Tolkien especially, right, because the kids are

present. Yeah. They're off screen, but they're there. Um, like, they're either under the shelves, dad's screen, iPhone password. Yeah, exactly. Clear it's a whole way. But yeah, these mothers are part of it. Or Iyrian, like, Yerian is a show-invented character, A Seilder's sister. But what is also true is that Tolkien would just, like, forget to bother to name the women in a family tree. He would just, like, the fact that we even get mention of Isil Dore's mother is, like, kind of more than Tolkien ever really bothered to do. And so I think that the idea of including, along with the idea of fathers, mothers as well. And so then the idea just becomes broader. And it just means who came before us.

Who are we modeling ourselves after? And that speaks to, as your point, speaks to just the larger cultures. What is our legacy? What are our traditions? The Harfoots. Like, we mentioned last week, the Harfords have this, like, very cruel practice of leaving people behind. And we know that eventually the Harfoots become hobbits who sink their holes in the ground and they stay. and they don't go and they don't leave anyone behind, right? And so, like, we're doing it this way because it's always been done this way, the Harfoots. We hide from the big people because we've always hidden for the big people. But when is a tradition due for an upgrade?

Like, when are we got to change our policies here? So, all right. Speaking about working mom and future queen, I guess, Disa. She's a queen who's not afraid to make a mold, stew from scratch for her husband. And if you pay a little close attention, I guess they didn't want to build her a kitchen set. That's fine. So she's just like carrying her groceries from the dining room into the kitchen back and forth.

And a plant is there, whatever. That there's just like an entire skinned mole in her arms while she's talking to Elron in this extremely delightful scene where she is clearly lying and he clearly knows she's lying. Anything you want to say about this? About the Moll Tales. Mollstale Sto. It makes me think of Molestown horror from Thrones. Love every single second between Disa and Elrod so far.

Just so good. And I thought this was a really interesting, pretty rapid evolution of individual character arcs, but also shared dynamics. Because Disa is the one in the initial Elron. Honduran sequence earlier in the season who is pushing for their reconciliation. And I'm really actually eager to go rewatch that stretch now and revisit that to see like, because I, I felt here's a pure soul and a pure heart who is just working toward like the nurturing

of that sapling, the growth and rediscovery of some sort of vibrant life and bond. And that is all still true. And that's like one of the things I really like about it is that. we didn't get this rapid overcorrection into villainy. She knows something that Elrond doesn't. And we had already learned that Duren, despite genuinely being hurt and feeling let down that Elrond had missed this large stretch of his life, was withholding truth, that there's this mutual suspicion on all sides.

And this, another theme and throughline of the story is that, like, trust and mistrust and how that really, really complicates the pursuit of true. fellowship and friendship in a story about the power, often about the power of unlikely fellowship. And so, yeah. Yeah, like Disa's saying, apologizing to Elrond later for withholding the truth of this methral mind, Elron was like, you really didn't know me that,

you didn't know me that information. You were being faithful to my friend. And like, I think there's a part of Elrond that believes that. And then there's a part of him that's playing Mr. Politician. And they're all kind of doing this dance with each other where there's a real sincere affection. And I think their desire to forge something together is sincere and deeply felt. But also we're all withholding from each other. Like, O'Rond is peeping on them and spying on them with his elf eyes and his elf fears.

I love that. Without. Without. Just perched on a bridge. He's like, he was Batmaning up on that bridge, right? He's like Batman on top of a building. He was just perched. there and these other dwarfs are like, excuse me. And what I love about Rob Arameo's performance

here is Elrond is all the moments, you know, I'm sure he's directed to do this as well, but all the moments where Elron just smiles when he's caught, when something's not going his way, he's not going to show you that he's vexed. He's the politician. He's just going to smile. Elron in the book is described Elron that the fellowship meet. He's described as kind as summer, which I've always loved that phrase, kind of summer. But as we see here, it's more than one thing. The smiles are more than one thing here. Well, summer's warm and welcoming, but it also makes you sweat, you know? Now it's like, then you have to go out and put on sunblood. Summer, not my favorite season. I was going to say this for later, but I'll read it now. We got a ton of

emails. Just most of them are in the second ring. I apologize. We got this email from Jed, to your point about alliances. And he, and Jed wrote, something rings of power is doing thematically is the concept of friends versus strangers, namely who is a friend and who is a stranger. Galadriel is working to discover of Halbrand, a stranger is her friend. Elron finds that Duran, his friend, has become more of a stranger that evolves in this episode. The different factions are trying to determine who is friendly to whom, elves to Numenorians, dwarves to elves, Southlanders to Numanorians, etc. This will be very important when it comes to Sauron establishing himself as an ally. But the most obvious

storyline in this theme is a stranger. The Harfuss must determine if he is a friend or foe. Also, his name bestowed by the Harfords is stranger, which is very reminiscent of Strider. A stranger of the four hobbits of the Lord of the Rings must come to trust. They eventually learn that not only is he trustworthy, but much more than he seemed. And so I love that idea. Again, these like simplest themes are sometimes the richest, you know, and so like the idea of friendship, which bounces back and forth between Duran and Disa and Elro and. run in these scenes is is so important. So Elron uses the iPhone password that Durrance kids just sort of shat

out, Elrond. You can't use a password. So the knocking game that the kids are playing is the entry to this secret mind under Lake Miromir, which is a sort of renowned location outside of the Mines of Moria in the books. It reminds us of like speak, friend and enter, this idea of dwarven artifice that is like there's a phrase

and then some knocking and then the door will open for you. I couldn't quite catch all the words of the knocking game because, and I should say this for every week, we do not have closed captioning on our screeners.

It's devastating. This bit us pretty hard last week when we kept saying a hall of law and it was Hall of Law. and we were just like listening to Morphith Clark say law and thought it was law anyway. So sorry. We got that wrong because we don't have close captioning.

A lot of nice people emailed us, but we got that wrong. It's the tradeoff of banking these episodes, Joe, you know? We have them ready for the people. Piping hot. We're grateful to have these strew. So he goes in there, finds a myth real. Doreen is ranting about how his father does not want to delve too greedily or too deep, and then there's right on cue, a caveman, right?

Yep. Yep. But as we're talking about the meat reel, here's we're going to take a moment to talk about oaths and Tolkien. Carlos, will you play this clip from Duran? Hansa Mountain. You'll never breathe so much as a whisper of what I'm about to tell you to another living soul. Dwarven anger outlives even ill. of memory, break you promise.

And the power of this stone will doom you and your kin to sorrow to your last day on this middle earth. Do you swear it, Elrond? No problem ever came in Tolkien from swearing an oath, right, Mallory? It should be fine. Elron swears on his father, Arrendil. We get another mention of Enrendel, and we're going to talk about him in a minute, I promise.

But there's a bunch of oaths pinging around that we want to talk about. right. Adar wants the before Dorians to swear an oath to him. We're reminded of the broken oath of the dead men of Dun Harrow. Those are like the green ghostly guys in return of the king who swore an oath to show up to a battle and then didn't and were doomed to live as weird green ghosts under a mountain until they fulfilled their oath to Eragorn, right? And then in fellow, like the very famous oath, we got this great email from Chris about the Feanor, the oath to Feanor. That was kind of glossed over in the prologue that we got in the show, but Chris wrote this email that I loved the language of. So I'm going to read it. Fiannor, legendary Elven Crosman, warrior and arrogant D-bag, swore to kill anyone.

Wow. Swore to kill anyone who got in the way of recovering his precious family jewels, the simerals. That oath twisted the fate of him and his kin to ruin and ultimately destroyed everything they built. The concept of an oath as being sacrosanct and binding is very present. in the text of Tolkien, but more often than not for ill, especially owes made rashly or in anger or sworn with blood or in the presence of Godlike beings while insulting them. Man, Faynor was such a tool.

Can you escape the sins of your fathers when a blood oath is driving you? Can Galadria lay down her sword or dagger and create a forest realm of peace and safety after she's sworn eternal vengeance? The thing that I think is so interesting about this. idea of oaths that, like, people have just seen the Jackson films and not read the book may not know, is that that oath of Feanor weighs so heavily on all the people who survived the war of wrath. Fianor made all of his kinsmen swear this oath no matter what.

They're getting the simerals back. And if that means killing tons of other elves, they're going to do it. And that's what's going on over there. And it's terrible. Elron, in fellowship, very specifically in the books, very specifically, does not have the fellowship swear an oath to follow Frodo to Mortar and throw the ring in. The Anne My Axe, My Sword, My Bow is a Jackson invention.

He does it for simplicity, I understand it. But in the books, Elron says, because Sam has sworn an oath because he's Sam, but the books Elron says, The others go with him as free companions to help him on his way. You may tarry or come back or turn aside into other paths. as chance allows.

The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw, yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will, for you do not yet know the strength of your hearts and cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road. Gimli says, faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens. Maybe, says Elron, but let him not vow to walk in the dark who is not seen the nightfall. Gimley says, yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart. Elrin says, or break it, look not too far ahead. And you think about the fellowship, and you think about the breaking up of the fellowship

is part of it, right? Boromir falls, but also, like, you know, Marian Pip go off in one direction, Aragon and Legolas and Gimley go off in another direction, Fredo and Sam Tudge on. Like, no oaths are broken in the breaking up of the fellowship because they never swore an oath in the first place. I think that's so interesting. Like, tell me what, like, what all of this oath and Tolkien and what's a bad oath and what's a good oath? Like, how does that strike you?

First of all, that passage that you just read is one of my favorites, specifically the but let him not bow to walk in the dark who has not seen the nightfall. Because of all of the other stuff we've talked about today, it is so entwined with that aspect of choice. What does an oath preclude you from making in the future? A different choice about the way you might want to conduct yourself or live your life. You were bound forever by a decision that you made. Or if you forsake that, then you are cursed. You are forsaken in some way or you have forsaken your vow. And I think that there are a lot of the oath as the catch-all here can manifest with

some different language. We can call it a pledge. We can call it a vow. And so you have like something very formal and solid and canonically resonant like the oath of Feanor, but you also have like Galadriel and the, the premiere of this show when she's talking about carrying on Finrod's mission, she says in there in the darkness, his vow became mine. Like this is an oath that she has made to herself and it is an unyielding and unceasing

one. And that's a bad thing. Like the fact that she is so sure and so deter. The fact that she is so determined and willing is great. And we applaud it and we root for it. The fact that she is so certain, though, and so unwilling to consider any other path is something that the rest of the story teaches us to really fear.

And if we think about, you know what, said earlier or wasn't going to read any in the mirror of Galadriel stuff, just changed my mind right here every time. Because I think that if we think about, like, actually both Galadriel and Elrond and where those characters go, now forever after watching this oath between Elrond and Duren, when I watch future Elrond or read future Elrond stretches, I will think about this oath that he made and what the fallout or consequences might have been, how it may have shaped the way he viewed a moment like that speech he gave to the fellowship about not doing something like that. Galadriel, when she is showing in the film, obviously, it's Galadriel and Frodo in the book, Sam is there. And he is all. also looking into the mirror and glimpsing,

she has these beautiful and sort of haunting the conversations with both of them about, not just what they're seeing, but whether to look, right? And I love that idea. The mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds. To me, that's of a peace with an oath. Like, it's an oath that you feel like you have made

with your future if you look and you see. You are then forever bound, at least in a part of your mind, by something that seems inescapable. And so one of the reasons, like I'm thinking now back to our top moments preview pod, why this is such a lasting story in a world that we'd love to revisit is because each character, each world, each culture is so unique and specific and fully realized. But there are these commonalities. And the way that these themes enrich and inform each other, the conversation about fathers informs the conversation about oaths, the conversation about oaths connects to the way we, view choice, all of these different themes play off of each other just as the characters play

off of each other. So I was concerned when they made this oath. And then you think again of those more literal, and this was in the email that you just read, like a blood oath. We had Hal Brown mentioned it last week. I was thinking of the conversation too with Waldrick and Theo. It's like, well, again, what is the power there exactly if it's not a sword? Is it this binding agent of some sort of. Oh my God. Boy, there's a lot there. You mentioned this conversation between Elrond and Doran. You already spoke beautifully about that.

So we don't need to, like, dwell that much on that. Obviously, a blockbuster moment of this episode is the Disa resonating with the Stones moment. Incredible. Like, Sophia Nimblede. Like, her voice is just so powerful. The way we already talked about this, the way the Bear McCreary score. in the light breaking on errand dira in the meadow bleeds into you hear her singing before we see her singing just absolutely gorgeous another another ritual another piece of the culture that we get

that communion with nature with the stone a plea to the stone that these are sort of a gods for the dwarves that all of their um that all of their saying someone on twitter was like i love how all the Harfoot sayings are wheels and feet based, that they're all wheel and feet based. And we already talked about how the dwarven sayings are all rock-based. And Descend the Subson says even the hottest coals will eventually cool, right? Like, it's just baked into how they view the world. It all has to do with rocks and minerals. We get the myth real reveal.

We're not that surprise because we assumed that that's what was going on. I had one mithril question for you, though. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was so struck by Elrond's response, like the way that he looked at the mithril, the way that he was holding it in his hand, the way that he was utterly wrapped, it had a real, my precious quality to it. Did that, did you feel that at all? Almost as if it's lit from within, he says. Yeah, absolutely.

Dazzled. Light and dark again, this thing that you on earth from the depth. and darkest center of the mountain contains the light within. The duren, the conversation between the two durrants, a couple of things going on here. Number one, one thing that I remember when the casting announcement was made, one thing that book readers were particularly prickly about was the fact that there were two durans existing at the same time. Because in Tolkien, this idea of the durin after durin after durin king and the dwarves

was, it was more of like a title passed down than I, I've named my son also Duren the way the Targaryens do. And it was this idea that in the books, the original King Dorn, the Dorenk, Dorn, who's sort of, this is like, you know, origin of everything, is thought to be sort of kind of reincarnated from the last into the next. So book readers were like, you're going to have King Duran the second and Prince during the third at the same time. I think not objection.

And so there's a nice little nod to that there. Again, we're timeline crunching. So there's a nice little nod to that there. King Duren, Peter Mullen, says, are people believed that when a new dwarf king is crowned the voices of all his, I almost did an audio clip of this, but we're about to hit you with another one and I didn't want to do too many in a row. Are people believe that when a new dwarf king is crowned, the voices of all his forebears flow into him, sharing with them their counsel, their wisdom, even their mistakes. This made me cry. But you, you need not wait for that day to hear my voice. Forever I am with you,

my son, even in anger. Sometimes in anger, most of all, there is nothing to forgive. Beautiful. A little bit of lore. Made me think of Avatar. Oh, I love that. It made me think of Vassaris and Reneira. It's an incredible.

This was an incredible scene and moment, an idea, a very powerful idea, that then very quickly morphs into, yeah. Your pal's done a good job of convincing us, but Intuition is a powerful tonic. Go follow yours. Well, Elron has done his Batman spying in Moria. Now it's time for Dorian to go to Lyndon and see what he can see. So presumably that's where we're going soon.

Now is the time on this podcast where we are going to talk about Aorindel, who gets many mentions in this episode. So let us hear from Elron himself, about his father. My father single-handedly sailed to Valinor and convinced the Valar to join the war and vanquish Morgoth. So great were his deeds that the Valar lifted him beyond the bounds of this world to forever carry the evening star across the sky.

Okay. Just like Faris-on back at Numenor erased the fact that the elves helped the men defeat Morgoth. Elron kind of forgot him. about his mom, Elwing, who helped his dad. So when he says single-handedly sail to Valinor, let's remember that Elwing, who was in the form of a bird, flew up with a simeril to give to Erandil when he goes and pleas on behalf. So basically, the war is going badly, very, very badly for elves and men.

And Arendel, the mariner, sails to Valnor, something that he should not be able to do necessarily. and the valor listened to his plea and then the gods help and the war, essentially. We saw, like, if you look back at the shots of Numenor, you can see a statue of Arundel there. It's the biggest one. The big, it's like the adventurous tower of Numenor is Aerendil.

You can see his bird wife. Whoever sculpted that did not forget about Elwing. His bird wife is there. And the simirel is on his forehead. And he wore the simirel on his forehead. and basically he was, I mean, essentially what Elrond says. He helped win the war and he did this incredibly brave, daring, bold thing.

And so the gods made him a star or had him push a star around. It's the light of the Simmeril on his forehead is the light of the morning and evening star. Last week, Saddock Burroughs in the Harfoot camp said this thing. I've never heard of stars becoming beings. I've heard of beings becoming stars. Right. So even the Harfoots have heard of Airendil. Like that's how strong this, this idea is. And like, what's so interesting about that is that this figure, Airendil the Mariner, is the germ for the entire Tolkienian legendarium. Before Tolkien wrote anything else, he, like he was dusty old linguist Tolkien, loved the medievals, loved the Anglo-Saxons. Love to read ancient poetry. He read a line of ancient Anglo-Saxon poetry that reads like this.

Hail aarendial brightest of angels sent over Middle Earth to mankind. And Tolkien, in his own words, his response to that line, he says, he felt a curious thrill as if something had stirred in me. There was something very remote and strange and beautiful behind those words if I could grasp it far beyond the ancient English. And it reminds me, again, I mean, first of all of that great wave, this thing that that has just sort of been with Tolkien for a long time, but also of that divine spark. Like he feels like he touched something, the source of something divine that comes from this,

this idea of Arundel the Mariner and Middle Earth. Mallory, how are you feeling so far about the importance of Arundel? I am deeply moved by everything that you just shared. What an origin story there for our guy, J.R. Tolkien. I would love to be haunted by nightly visions of an all-consuming wave if it meant that I could write Lord of the Rings one day. It seems like a worthy trade-off. Again, this is so central not only because of the connection to so many of our primary characters,

Elrond. We got to see El-Ros in the not Hall of Law, but Hall of War. Tapestry last week. So this family and these roots, I love that you noted that it's like the most prominent statue because the people of Numenor are constantly rebelling against their ties and history to the elves of this like central aspect of their own identity and then just being constantly surrounded by it and citing those. Like I said, oh, look at our amazing stonework, but let's like ignore everything that it connects to. Well, the light of Arandale is what led those people to the island, the island of the star, right? like sort of the three wise men following the light to Jesus.

Like, that's like, thanks. Exactly. Thanks for showing us our island. Yeah, Randale. You know, if we think back to the arrival of the stranger, the Meteor Man, at the premiere, this is something that as we hear and see, everybody got to witness, right? So it's this connecting element

across the different character sets and cultures. Similarly, the star of Arendial, this precious sacred light stretches across the timeline and the ages of this tale. And so you look into the future and you think of all the things that Galadriel could have gifted to Frodo. What did she choose? A kernel, a piece of this light, a glimmer of this precious sacred thing. And wait, can we pause to hear Kate Blanchett say it? Hell yeah. Our most beloved star in dark places when all other lights go out.

Instant chills. Now I just want to go watch the movie again. Let's go watch it. Let's just not finish the podcast. Go watch the weekend. Oh, God. Like, Joe, if you go to the epigraph of fellowship, what are our opening, words. I mean, these are not the only ones, but what is, what is the repeating line in there in the

land of Mordor where the shadows lie and shadows? It's capitalized. Like the idea of shadow and light in conflict. This is this sacred thing that is precious to so many of our characters and touches so many different aspects of the timeline in the story. It's just awesome to hear Elrond discuss the origin of it here. Yeah. There's this, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned the mirror of Galadriel chapter, which I feel like we're going to keep coming back to, but like there's this really interesting moment where Galadriel's talking about Sauron and she says, I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the dark lord and know his mind or all of his mind that concerns the elves and he gropes ever to see me and my thought, but still

the door is closed. She lifted up her white arms and spread out her hands towards the east in a gesture of rejection and denial. Airendil, the evening star, most beloved of the elves, clear above. So bright was it that the figure of the elven lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. It's like she's cleansing herself of the darkness of Sauron in the light of Aeron. This is like, this is the divine spark of the lightness, the true light that Finrod was talking to her about looking up to the light. That is what AERN deal is in all of this. Can you read this passage of Sam in Mordor seeing Aaron do? Absolutely.

Let me give you my best Sam here. I don't think I can sound that sweet. Some great Sam passages. Here, peeping among the cloud rack above a dark tour high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart. as he looked up out of the forsaken land and hope returned to him.

For like a shaft clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the shadow was only a small and passing thing. There was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach. Incredible. The last, beautiful, I love you. The last thing I want to say about Arendial, you've been sort of laying track for this, which is the idea of how this light connects. the entire story. So will you hit me with one last Sam passage, please?

You know, this is actually in the same stretch that I read earlier from Two Towers where Sam and Frodo were talking about not knowing the ending. This is the next part of that, of that Sam speech. You know what a speech it is. Talking about Barron, this little Merle in the Crown, etc. And he says, but that's a little. long tail, of course, and goes on past the happiness and into grief and beyond it. And the Silmaral went on and came to her end deal. And why, sir, I never thought of that before.

We've got, you've got some of the light of it in that starglass that the lady gave you. Why to think of it, we're in the same tale still. It's going on. Don't the great tales never end. Don't the great tales never end, Mallory. Oh, my God. So Sam wielding that. light to save Frodo. What does Sam see in Galadriel's mirror when he looks? He sees a winding stare and he sees Frodo standing lifeless. So what he sees is this moment where he will have to save Frodo from Shilab with the light of Airendiel. So it's important. And it's Elron's dad. So there you go. Anything else you want to say in Ring 1? We've gone on quite a bit. We have a lot to say in Ring 2. Anything else you want to say here? What a show.

All right, let's head to Flotsam. Before we get hit, Ring 2, Flossum and Jetsam. These are Easter eggs and references. I just got to say Narsal. That's all I'm going to say about Easter eggs. Anything else you want to say? I mean, that has to be the pick for this episode. It just has to be. I like the Galadryal urges Muriel to reforge the alliance between Men and Nels, because, of course, when I think of reforging, I think of the sword being reforged, like this shattered thing coming back together to, be the weapon to use against Sauron, the last alliance of elves and men. All right. Ring 2. The moment you've all been waiting for. A conspiracy enmassed.

Our weekly, Who's That Guy? Best Guesses and Thoughts. I was going to talk about mystery boxes here, but we already kind of talked about that. So, like, wild. It's a mystery box show. Who knew? Amazing. I'm going to introduce a new segment.

I'm calling Find That. Nasgul. Because I just thought we might take a moment to have a little. what information we have about who might be a ring wraith in the future or a not as cool in the future. There's not much known about them. But what we do know, they're vaguely characterized as powerful men even before the gift of the rings. Not necessarily kings. I think I was just looking for kings. Not just kings. Okay. Three from Newmanorian descent, the other six from Middle Earth peoples. Newmanorians? Oh no. Now we got to look at Newmanorians or future ring race.

So anyone on the table here for you in season one of Rings of Power as a potential future ring wraith? Oh, boy. What about Kevin? Not a bad idea. Are our show invented characters? Yeah, I'm smitten right away. I'm like, here's a kind, trustworthy, helpful fellas. Like, that's not what I should be thinking, probably.

And yeah, the show invention just gives them total room to play with what his future can. could be. What about you? Any Newman-Orians on your watch list here? I mean, I'm, I'm just going to watch AAR, and I have no reason right now to think that, but I think maybe like, what if one of the ring race as a woman is not a bad thing to be thinking about? And then also, for me, number one with a bullet is Aseldur's friend, Valandiel, who's so mad about getting kicked out of the Seagard and has this sort of like, when he's talking to Il Seildur about getting kicked out, he's like, you never had to work for anything. I had to work so hard to get here. So that's sort of like a sealed order in his privilege and Valandil and his like started from the bottom

now I'm here as energy feels ripe for something. Agreed. Definitely. Hobbitson drag is Gmail.com if you have a Nasgill theory. All right. We're going to swiftly move through this next section. We got a bunch of emails about this King of the Dead theory. We talked about the men of, of, uh, Dunao.

This is a really popular theory. Is Hal Brand, who we've seen be slippery and maybe oath breakery, is he, if he is a king, going to be the king who promises to fight and then doesn't show up. And then unfastens himself from the raft and says, I'm making myself a smaller target. How do you feel about this theory, Mallory? I would be completely compelled by this if I were not now just fully in the Sauron camp, which I actually can't now watch the show without thinking about that. So I do find this to also be a compelling case, though.

And I really like the idea that the King of the Dead is a character we're going to be spending time with here. And certainly Halbrand or somebody else who is in Numenor right now will quickly, I mean, obviously everyone's setting off on their ships now. But in the same place and with the same character set as a Sealdor to forge this future oath and bond, like that all I think works pretty well. But he is Sauron, so he can't be. The King of the Dead. Let's just go to the, let's just go to Saran. We're going to do something we don't usually do, and we're going to play a clip again. Carlos, will you hit us again with this Hallorun quote, please?

In an instance like this, it seems to me that you do well to identify what it is that your opponent most fears. And exploit it. No. Give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them. The text I got from Mallory Rubin when she got to this point in the episode. I mean, what else is there to say, right? I have a lot more I can say, but like, what else is there is saying? Again, to me, like the only counterpoint right now is that it just seems almost too clear.

There's too much supporting evidence for episodes into the show. But, I mean, that line, yes, I texted you immediately. I stopped watching the episode and texted you. You then replied that you had been waiting for me to text you about that. exact line. Yes. It was so, like, wide-eyed emoji, shocking. And then, you know, rewatching the scene, everything that he's saying.

Again, like in the previously on, the fact that he's reminding her of this need to pursue an army, really stands out. Like, his opening, there's the, we talked about the horse gallop thing, but part of the, part of that line, that initial line is, does it ever occur to you that you that you're not battling trolls or orcs, but men? I thought that was really fascinating in terms of like directing her focus. And then, okay, so the key line, the clip that you've played twice. To me, the real, again, it's just like, oh my God, okay, he's Sauron. This is the thing that Sauron would say. This is the Anatar. Like, I make you think that I'm your friend, learn things about

you and then use it to bend you to my will playbook. So then we have to think in light of that, well, what has he learned that she fears the most? How is he using that to master her? Like, everything that he's saying to guide her is his playbook. So then how is that unfolding between them and what might that mean? You already mentioned the Gilgallad. I guess it's Gil Gallad. That's how they've been saying it, which is, I don't know if I'm going to Gilgallet.

I guess I'll try to start saying that. I'm going to write myself a new post-it. Right up next to Valerian. I'll try. I'm not sure if I'll be able to do that. But that same wind line, this idea. that the High King feared that if Galadriel continued to pursue her mission, she would bring about the very end that she was seeking to thwart.

Like this all just tracks quite fully. And the other line that I was really struck by was when he said, now he was kind of going play by play, beat by beat. All of a sudden she throws you in a cell. Why? I asked her to fight for your people. But that wasn't what provoked her anger, was it? I'm just like, dude, you weren't there.

This is like sorcery. Oh, how do you know? all this. Yeah. Yes. All right. So the question we have to ask ourselves, a few things. Number one, if you look for this idea of like the connection between Galadriel and Sauron,

let's go back to that mirror of Galadriel chapter and that scene where she says, I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the dark lord and know his mind or all of his mind that concerns else. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought, but still do. the door is closed. That sounds like text from an ex. Like that sounds like, listen, I'm not saying that like, I will love it. I'm not saying that Galadriel and Hallibrand are going to like actually have a romance, but I think they're going to have a connection. Yeah. That he wants to maintain with her. There is also this line from Unfinished Tales that says Sauron perceived it once that Galadriel

would be his chief adversary an obstacle and he endeavored therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. But I think it's going to be something else. It's going to be the soul, like, you know, classic sort of, I don't know, just sort of like, don't you want to be here in the darkness with me? Like, I think he likes her and admires her and wants her, you know, Kylo and Ray, like, you know, come with me. And she's like, not like this.

No, come to the light with me, right? Okay. Are Galadryl and Hal Brand, a diet in the force? I feel like they are a forced diet. I just didn't want to invoke the Rises Skywalker. Oh, God. To go back to Farisand's speech, he starts it with my friends, which is Hal Brown started his address in the throw room, and then ends with buying them off with a round of drinks like Halpern did. And so we could see how easily in the future, because in the future, Halper will sort of whisper into, you know, sort of worm tongue-like into Farisand's ear and bring about the fall of Newmanore.

And we could see how easily those two guys are already sort of echoing each other's playbook. We got this email from James about the meaning of Hallbrand, brand meaning sword or fire, and Hall meaning covering or sort of secret, secret fire. And James wrote, obviously sounds sarnie, but then there's Secret Fire Gandalf chanted at the Balrog. So what do I know? So Hallbrand, secret fire. Secret fiery eyeball? Question mark.

Okay. I mean, also the sword fire, like we are literally watching a show featuring a non-sword, according to Waldrick, but a sword help that takes human blood and then flames into its full form. So that's notable. I loved this email, this idea of parsing that name because Halbrandt is such a lovely and cool name. If you have not listened to last week's episode of The Watch, I can't recommend it highly enough, mostly to hear. the 37 different pronunciations of Numenor, but also because it's a great chat, two people we love.

And it's so funny that we got this email because Chris and Andy were just talking about how Halbrand is like a really dope name. But in the course of doing that, they kept saying it because it does sound so cool and I was like, wait a minute. Brand brands. We see all these markings everywhere.

Like this does feel like yet another clue, doesn't it? He branded Finrod sort of thing. Yeah. All right. Your big question last week, I pose this theory to you, it was like, well, then what the hell is going on with the orcs over in Mordor and Adar and all that sort of stuff? Okay.

Great email from Kyle here. Who says, and we're about to talk about Star Wars prequels, speaking of force diets. Okay. It says Adar equals the Trade Federation, Halibrand equals Palpatine. Speaking of Star Wars prequels, my read of where we're going here is that Halbran is contriving a genuinely threatening situation for elves, humans, dwarves, to pull off a Halpatine-like plan. My guess is Adar genuinely believes he's Morgoth's successor.

He's really attempting to amass an army. And Halbrine is going to direct attention to that situation and convince Galadriel and the good guys that they need rings of power, i.e. this story's imperial clone army to protect themselves from a repeat Morgoth war, allow the good guys with their rings to defeat Adar and then simultaneously be creating the one ring to ensnare them. I have no notes. Honestly.

I mean, maybe get Duku in there instead of just trade federation, but that's a really strong. Great, great argument. Then there's this other idea that maybe he's not long conning right now. Maybe Sauron is actually in a penitent space, and this is where you scoffed at me last week from his leg. Yeah, this is your corner. What if Sauron was just a good guy? What if Sauron was trying to mend his ways? Seeking that piece, that long piece that he's been looking for.

A listener named Josh came through with a quote for me. Thank you so much, Josh. Josh wrote, from the rings of power appendix in the Simerillion, quote. I'm going to mess up this name. When Thangoror Drim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauram put on his fair hue again and did abysence to Eonway, the herald of Manway, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at all, that this was not at first falsely done.

but that Sauron, in truth, repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Yonwe to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Amon and there to receive judgment from Manway. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation, and received from the valor, a sentence. It might be of long servitude and proof of his good faith, blah, blah, blah. So he fell back into evil for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.

So there is this idea of a repentant Sauron who's like, oh shit, my boss is gone. My bad guys. I didn't mean it. Let's start. Fresh start? I'm compelled by this, but two questions. One, is there a way to make this work in this timeline, though? because can he be repenting if he is actively leading?

I feel like those two theories can't be the same. I feel like if Adar is his driven plan, Adar might just be like power or pours a vacuum. And if Sauron has left, maybe Adar is like, okay, it's up to me to figure out what to do down here, right? But then what do you think he's doing with Galadriel and Numenor? And this whole like, let's get an army going. Bronto.

Honestly, I kind of think that Sauron is constantly working all angles. And he's sort of like, can I start fresh here in Newmanar? If not, can I long con this elf general into whipping up an army for me? Okay. Second question. Yeah. If you fuck Saran while he's repenting, do you, is this like the Lord of the Rings equivalent of like we were on a break?

Like, is it okay? Do you get to rationalize it later? What's really funny to me is that like, I think eventually, in this series, we're going to have to get Caliborne, who is Galadriel's canonical husband. She should be married already at this point. Caliborne, I'm sorry. It's just a complete drip. Like, I am not, you can send your angry emails to Hobbs and Dragons and Gmail.com, but like,

when the fellowship arrives in Laithorian and he's like, why the hell did you tell me? Like, he's so rude to them. And she's like, listen, we've been married a long time. It's fine. This is just my husband and who he is. But can you imagine that Galadriel, like, maybe has his passionate. attraction to Saurona and she's like, never mind. I can't trust my heart. I'm just going to settle for this drip over here and like he's never going to betray me and it'll be fine. I don't know.

Oh, God. Like, again, I can see the book Puris getting really pissed off if we're sitting around here like shipping Galadriel and Saurums like that, which again, which is why I'm not saying it should be like a full-blown actual romance, but like an attraction to the darkness sort of thing. We got to name it from Corey. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but he's just sort of talking about how Sauron is someone who likes order and precision. He is a planner and that Morgoth was chaotic and careless. And so that at the end of Morgoth's rule, Sauron was kind of pissed at his boss anyway because he's like, this is not the way to do it. That idea, I think of Sauron as the careful planner works really well with this scene he saw from Hallibrand, who's just like, let's sit in the cell and think about our next steps.

You are a cult that is continually running, rushing off headlong. Let's just sit still and think about it. Last but not least. Again, we're all on board with this. They're going to have to work hard to make us think he's not Sauron at this point. But we got another email from a different Corey who said he listened to the Rings of Power soundtrack and listen to the Hallbrand track and then listen to the Sauron track and then listen to the Sauron track. And that the melody you hear from Halibon right away is very similar to Sauron when the male vocals come in at the beginning. and the brass at about 150.

So I love a clue inside of the score. Me too. I love a. There were so many Thrones score clues all the time. It turned me into a score detective. Okay. So listen, Mallory and I are on the same page. Any email you guys have sent to us already, listeners, you wrote before you saw Halibrand

say what he says in this episode. So if you want to write some more emails. But I think we're on page. And I genuinely am really into it. I think it's really interesting. Me too. Yeah. I think that line gropes ever, you know?

And I just, ever to see me in my thought. Yeah. Like, it's a great thing. You, you mentioned this last week, but like disrupting that certainty that Galadriel has,

like what could be more unmooring than realizing you had aligned with the very force you were seeking to end? I mean, that would just be incredibly dramatically rich. Go back and watch that first raft meeting when she's talking to him about Sauron how he couldn't possibly

understand and then just like a batch of his sour on it's like genuinely hilarious and like yeah she's just decided he's the king she's just decided that so um glad you'll send your emails to hobbs and dragons and gemal dot com make your case for him being the king all right uh last but not least in this ring is sealed or in the voice i don't know it okay here's what we know it sounds female right yep seems to be coming from the west. Yes. It doesn't really align that that would be the tree of Nimloth, which is not situated in the west, but like I like the idea of the tree calling him because Isildur will wind up saving, you know, a piece of the tree to take it over to Gondor.

The mountain of Meneltarma, which is this mountain. We see it. When he looks off at the shore, we see this giant mountain. That is the closest thing. And once again, shout out to Professor. Professor Coriolson for letting me know this. That is the closest thing that Tolkien ever described as a church. Is this mounted in Numenor with a flat top where they would go to do sort of rights and practices?

Is the mountain calling to him? Is it his dead mother? We don't know how she died or where and how, I don't know, what would she be calling him for? I don't, is this a call to adventure? But I really love your idea that, like, Asildor, the man, it's brilliant. Isildur the man who follows whatever this voice is, is the same as Silder. or who would listen if the ring starts whispering immediately to him. Exactly.

Brilliant. I hadn't thought about that. But do you have any theories about what this voice might be? I was thinking given the mother mentioned in this episode, could it be his mother? Could there be, could something with the history of his mother inside of their family have been what drove Anari and his brother to the West in the first place? Will we learn more about that? I was going to ask you, could there be anything here with these mystique? serious, white-cloaked, magical figures that we've seen in the trailers?

Could that be? The cultists. That's really interesting. Who's summoning them? That's fascinating. The cultists. So these are the people that, like, a lot of people thought that Sauron was in the trailer. But lo and behold, it's probably...

Weirdest days on Twitter in a long time. Yeah. Fizarre. Probably just Charlie Vickers. Stubbly Charlie Vickler. Anyway, all I know about all, I don't know anything about those cultists, but what I do know is that Sauron, like, loved a cult. He was big into cults. So, I mean, yeah, a cult he could exploit in Numenor. That's interesting. I don't know. That's it for Ring 2. Mallory and I are now fully on the same page. Love when a fellowship comes back together. I thought there'd be a little bit more fight left in you, but you were, I mean, it took me only one week longer than you to just be fully there. Like you said, I will, it will take a lot to convince me that another path is worth following here. I'm open, but I'm just so sure.

Ring three. We don't have a lot here. This is the forbidden pool, the book reader spoiler section. Jump off entirely. There's not much else to say here that we haven't already alluded to, except let's go back to the Great Wave, of course. In a lot of those quotes about the Great Wave that Tolkien has said, that is, you know, is he, keeps mentioning his Atlantis complex is what he calls it. So this nightmare that he had about the great wave that we see in this episode. So like potentially Halbra and his Sauron, I don't

think they're trying to hide things. Like, they're not trying to pretend that a lot of people don't know this story. So they're like, fuck it. Let's just show a giant wave swallowing Numeronor that's going to sink it to the ocean at some point. Let's not hide it that much. But Numenor is so often compared to Atlantis because Tolkien had this dream of Atlantis. And so he's like, so he created Numeronor. What else do you want to say about this? I think it's really interesting that because of how often we're chatting in our pods about like the danger of seeking to avoid an outcome and when to not trust in a vision, like this is going to happen. the downfall of Numenor happens.

And the faithful will evade this destruction and go on to exist in the story. But I think that that's really fascinating, not to show us something that's a misdirect, but to show us something that actually is going to befall this place and this people. And, you know, that was like the first portion of that Faramere quote that I read at the beginning of the episode that I didn't read is him basically saying like yeah it reminds me of what happened in numinor because they're standing there he says a tremor ran through the earth they felt the walls of the city quiver a sound like a sigh went up

from all the lands about them and their hearts beat suddenly again it reminds me of numinor said paramere and wondered to hear herself speak of numinor said aywin yes said faramere of the land of westernies that foundered end of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills and coming on darkness unescapable i often dream of it tough tough one that sigh sort of language that makes me think of what muriel miriel says in her dream where she was like sometimes the island just needs to stretch you know what i mean it's just sort of like personifying the island of numinor as it as it sinks as it sinks, what we know is that Elendiel and the faithful will high tail it out of there.

They'll survive. Alendiel is sealed or an Aryan. Hopefully their sister as well, though we don't know because she's so invented. On his way out, I guess Alendiel is going to go up to the top of that tower, grab A, the Palantir. It's got to come with him. And B, Narsil. That's, that's, like, he's been given us. sword, but he's going to grab that sword on his way out, unless Muriel gives it to him

before then. What do you think? I think, I think Muriel will take it. A media will take it. It will be gifted to him at some point as their relationship, which has also been interesting talking about, you know, signs and portents like that to exchange the last episode. I have a maybe dumb question for you.

Of course. Okay. We see in Palantir, like, what? What are we, it might be. What are we inclined to think of right away? We think of Saraman. Saramon. Saran.

And the way that Saran was able to reach and warp and corrupt him through it. Yeah. Is that something we should be considering with this Palantir and the vision? Like, is there an agent on the other end that is trying to plant this fear in Tar Palantir and Mariel or not. And thereby I master them? I think that's something we should be on the lookout for sure. That's really smart.

I mean, never trust a Palantir to think is what we learned from poor, from poor Pippin. Yeah. Oh, Pip. Full of the talk. Last but not least. Mount Doom watch. Okay.

So if Adar is looking to cover all the world in the second darkness for his photosensitive orc babies, perhaps, I would guide you to rewatch some of the establishing shots of Bronwyn's village because some viewers have noticed in the background, there's just a straight-up volcano. It's not even a mountain. It is a volcano. It's Mount Dew. Ready to go off when you are. It's just Mount Doom right there. Yeah, it's just there. It's just there.

And again, they're not trying to, like, they're not trying to surprise us with things because I don't think Tolkien, like, you know, like, okay, strider is Eragorn or Sauramon is evil or so like that. But none of that is like, what a shocking twist, you know, or like Gandalf's back from the dead. I guess there are these moments. But, like, none of them feel like they're there to shock. and astonish you, but just more these are the twist in terms of the story. And you've had these seeds planted for you along the way that are growing and flourishing. And so that's, you know, I don't think they'll be stressed. They can't possibly be trying to hide Halber and Sauron and then give us that line in this episode.

So I agree. Look for Mount Doom. Look for your Palantiers. Look for your Narsal blades. It's all there for you to see, you know. So, and enjoy. What a fun show. Love the show.

That's it. us. We did it. We spent another couple hours talking about a show we love and some texts we love and we'll do it again. And I love, I love, love, love watching this show, talking to you about it, hearing from our listeners about it. Thanks to Carlos Chirboga and Arjuna Rangipal for their endless patience with us as we talk about these shows we love. Come back on Sunday to hear us talk about Arjuna said in the chat that he loved it. Thanks, Arjuna. Come back on Sunday to hear us do Talk Thrones with Chris Ryan,

who has no idea that Hallibrand is Sauron. Zero idea. I promise you. Saran could get a flaming eyeball tattoo on his chest, and Chris Ryan will not know. We'll be back on Tuesday for our Deep Dive for House of the Dragon episode five. The Midnight Boys, Poo, Poo, we'll be here to talk about not Adar, but and or. Very exciting.

And then mid-edition, Harley Quinn on the weekend, She-Hulk in the Week. All kinds of great stuff for you here in the Ring of our Speed. Stay tuned. We will see you soon.

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