House of R - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 5 Deep Dive

Episode Date: September 24, 2022

Joanna and Mal journey to Middle-earth once again to talk about the latest episode of 'The Rings of Power.' They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (3:02). Then they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details and character moments (14:24). Later, they discuss if their theories about Halbrand or Adar have changed (1:25:10). Finally, they take a dip in the Forbidden Pool and look ahead to what potential book spoilers might mean for some of the revelations in the episode (1:35:02). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail] Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to Power Pot pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool. Restrictions apply. See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. How are you going, Pops? Give us a warbara. Come on you to do some goods. The sun is fast falling beneath trees of town. The light in the tower, no longer my home.

Past eyes of pale fire, black sand for my bed. I trade all I've known for the on. known ahead. Oh, and welcome into the ringer verse, your nexus podcast, Ede for all things fandom. I'm Joanna Robinson, and joining me now that she's packed up all of her feathery shirts.

It is my house of our worky. Co-host, Mallory Rubin. Hello, Mallory. How you doing? Joanna, enough with the quail sauce. Give me the meat and give it to me, wrong. Damn me.

All right. We are here on a beautiful Friday afternoon to talk to you about the latest episode of the Rings of Power. Episode 5 Partings, written by Justin Doble, directed by Wayne Chey. Yep. This is coming out a little later than usual, and that's because we've all been a wandering and a traveling, and as you may be able to hear, I'm a little sick. So I am so excited to talk about this incredible episode. of the Rings of Power. Mallory and I both started bawling as soon as we heard Poppy started singing a song.

So how are we not going to come here with you today, talk about this episode. The Joanna Robinson Flew game. Unbelievable. This is incredible. Did you take some of the beeswax that Norrie was offering up and just rub it on your paws?

Yeah, I rubbed it all over my paws. It really helped. Actually, I prefer the stick it into a pool and mysterious icicles. form technique. That's a really solid one. So I just submerged my whole larynx into a pool. And it sounds great. As you can hear, um, let's talk about this episode, Mallory, other than the song, which I know we both adored, how did you feel overall about partings? I just loved it.

I was moved to tears multiple times during this episode. And it's, it's just going to pull me back, like a magnet. I can feel it. I'm going to want to keep revisiting this episode after episode. There are a lot of interesting, like, lore updates and actual canon to discuss, certainly. And I look forward to doing that today with you, Joanna Robinson. But in terms of the themes, this eternal question inside of the tale of darkness and light, this question of destiny, this aspect of self-doubt, the journey, the world. way that those themes connected across all of the character sets of the storylines, the song, this just had so much emotional resonance and thematic heft. And I thought it was absolutely

beautiful. And I loved it. I have some questions, some some confusion that maybe we can clear up today. Me too. Me too as well. Inside of the love. But I think it really crystallized for me. We've been talking about this idea of light and darkness since the beginning, obviously, and this idea of, like, evil and good is something that Tolkien is always interested in. But I think what this episode really clarified for me is that this show is really interested in the internal light versus dark battle. You know, we talk about this a lot in all of the stories that we cover, this idea that, you know, inner conflict is the most interesting conflict. And so this idea that it's not a battle of purely good, angelic,

heroes and corrosively evil, monstrous bad guys, but rather the battle inside of you to overcome your own darkness and head towards the light or to let the darkness subsume you. And I think this episode is a lot of moments where that becomes really clear that that is something that Patrick and JD as they pick up this mantle are really interested in telling. So I'm really excited to get into it. Before we do some quick programming reminders, As always, the ring of our speed is hopping. The joint is jumping, right? Sunday, Chris Ryan, Mallory Rubin,

and my poor flu-ridden larynx will be back for Talk the Thrones to talk to the latest episode of House of the Dragon. Tuesday, Mallory and I will back for the deep dive of that episode. Really, really excited to talk about that episode of television with Mallory for hours and hours and hours at a time. Nothing I like more to do. I can't wait. Wednesday.

The Midnight boys, Poo-Poo! They're on the Andor beat, correct? Is that right? Yes. All right. And we burn with jealousy, are precious.

We wish we could cover it all. But the boys are doing a great job with that. So I was so excited to listen to that. Mint Edition has been cooking as well on the feed. So Mallory Rubin, if someone wants to catch up with Andor, with House of the Dragon, rings of power,

with Harley Quinn, with all of that. She-ho. Not to mention she-ho. Of course. Of course. How can they best keep up? Oh, you can follow.

the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow the ringerverse across our myriad social feeds. We're everywhere. Check us out on Twitter. Check us out on Instagram. Check out the ringerverse on TikTok. And if you want to send us some longer thoughts, some scrolls, some scribbles, maybe a song of your own, you can email us at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. And in case you're wondering, yes, my mother has emailed Joanna at Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. I'm going to cherish that email forever. Um, your friendly neighborhood spoiler wording. As we've mentioned, every time we do a Rings of Power episode, it's a little complicated on this one. We've decided to separate it into three separate rings.

Give me the spoiler warning. Give it to me raw. Yeah. I'm just going to look for every opportunity to do. say that throughout the pot and I will not apologize. No quail sauce on this spoiler warning. Here it comes right for you. Ring one, Mallor and I, every year, as we've mentioned, we've watched the Peter Jackson films. We love these films.

We're not going to pretend we haven't seen these films. We've also read the books. We're not going to pretend we haven't read the books. So all that's going to inform our conversation in the first ring here. But we're not going to dive deep into lore. And there's just like a few things that we're kind of keeping back in case there a surprise for people, seems appropriate to keep it, you know,

as a reveal for people who might be coming to all this material for the first time. That brings us to Ring 2. My personal fave, which is the speculation ring. This is where all of our theories informed by book lore and emails from you all and very suspicious lines of dialogue

from the show, like all of our speculation exists in Ring 2. Mal, how are you feeling about Ring 2 these days? It's just a treat. It's a joy. it's a thrill. We have some very interesting stuff to talk about it in Ring 2 today.

We really do. Ring 3 is a pretty slender ring. It's like, because there's not much left to talk about after all of that. But just in case there's something when we feel like, feels like really, really spoilery. We'll pop it down there. Today, I think I mostly want to talk about Gil Gallid, which is how you pronounce that name. And I'm doing my best to not pronounce it the other way. Just call him Gil.

We got Gil, we got Finn, we got Vin, we got V, we got Vald, which is. Val. We got gal. Classic. Classic, Rubin. So we'll be talking about King Gill. Hi, King, Hi, Elvin King Gil.

Yeah. Down in the third ring. Before we get into our various rings, our deep dive, let's talk about the significance of the title Partings in this episode. There's a chapter in Return of the King called Many Partings,

which is a moment in the story when many of our heroes. part ways. How do you feel like this term shot through this episode for you, Mallory? So in general, I really enjoy the titling of these episodes so far and how they feel very applicable in certain overt and apparent ways to what's happening, but also open up these larger aspects of the text. And one of the things that I love is that inside of Tolkien, a parting can take so many different shapes, right? It is often the beginning of something

as much as it is the end of something. So many partings in Return of the King is, of course, this conclusion, this stretch of farewells and really like grief-laden partings of people who have been together through these cataclysmic circumstances moving forward into different phases of their lives,

saying goodbye after a victory. and this idea that the parting can come at the end, but also at the beginning, and then thinking about how the idea of a parting manifests in something like fellowship as well as the return of the king is really interesting. So like if you go to, if you go to fellowship, there's a great photo passage that connects to one of the ideas we mention often, you know, that first step you take out of your door and that Bilbo idea. And so in Fellowship, Frodo says, speaking of Bilbo, one of the most Baltimoreian bilboes you're ever going to get there. Speaking of Bilbo, Frodo says,

quote, he used often to say there was only one road, that it was like a great river. It springs were at every doorstep and every path with its tributary. It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door, he used to say. You step into the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be.

swept off to. So this tie between partings and adventure, heading out onto the road to join someone or something and to join in something and to partake in some unexplored, unexpected journey, which is certainly a very present theme in this episode as our character set out some to war, some on a migration, some to attempt to fend off a threat in doom, some to overtake. It's everywhere. I think also as we talk about that battle for light and dark inside of characters, the idea of schisms within a culture, we see a couple places here in the Southlanders. Obviously, we have those who leave and those who stay, as Arundare points out. And then with the Numenorians, of course, we've got, you know, those who are Elf faithful and those who are not.

And so, and what I think is... The Harfoots, too, our gal is, like, take their wheel. Listen, she's an icon and I love her forever, no matter what horrible thing she has to say. All time with fungus line in this episode. Remarkable stuff. That's our girl Malva. And like, first of all, I really want to know what she was going to make out of those mushrooms because they looked delicious and I would like to try it. Yeah, that schism within a culture. And I think the show, as we've discussed before, has been such a good job of establishing these various cultures and there are various customs and there are various different. flavors and this idea throughout the story so far that the ultimate goal for so many of these people is to protect their way of life. For the Harfutts, that heartless aspect of their culture is their best attempt to protect who they are and how they do what they do. You know,

the Numenorians are trying to protect their way of like the Southlanders. the dwarves, the elves, of course, this is a huge thing for the elves in this episode. How do we keep our light from going out? And so I think in Tolkien, this idea of individual cultures in their own cultural self-interest

and when do those interests coincide to make that fellowship, that common cause that we often talk about, right? When does all of our individual interests become one giant battle against the darkness. All right. And when our individual interest, then corrupt or waylay or mislead

somebody else's interests because you have this like conflict there as well, friendship, oaths, fellowship. I'm going to ask you to break your oath so that we can take advantage of what this other culture has on earth and use it for our ends. And maybe the way that we do that will be through friendship and fellowship. But if the aim is not pure, then is there a shadow and a darkness at the root of it from the start?

I think that's one of the questions that this episode really poses to us. I have a lot of questions for those elves. A lot of questions. But we're going to start our deep dive, our ring one, Helms Deep, the Deep dive. I mean, where else could we start up at the Harfo? because we want to talk about this song immediately. A song is called This Wandering Day. You can listen to it on repeat if you want to on Spotify.

It's incredible. Barry McCrary just like really in his bag here. Megan Richards is poppy singing a beautiful song. Mallory, talk to me about how this song hate you. What do you want to say about it? This is a large part. And there were a lot of other things I liked about the episode, but this was a large part of why I spoke so glowingly at the top.

I was just really genuinely gripped and moved by this. Like I had a sincerely emotional response to this. Like you know when you're watching something or you're hearing something and you feel like an actual tightening in your chest, right? But not in a bad way in a way that kind of makes you feel like you're alive. Yes. And that little ember of that little coal just lights. lights you up. And that's what I felt like listening to Poppy.

And it was so, it captures so much of what we just talked about at the beginning. It was so sad to hear at the outset that this was Poppy's mother's song. And we spoke at a prior episode about the anguish of realizing that Poppy

had lost her entire family. Yeah. But she is revisiting this and keeping this tradition alive through not only her friendships, but what those friendships have given her, which is found family. And to watch the way the map, and they've done a great job with the visuals of the map

across the series to date, but it was just really like incredible here. Wait, Mallory, do you want to do a podcast geography? Yeah, I'm leaving that to you. That's your specialty. I wouldn't dare to encroach on Geography Corner with Joanna Robinson. Yeah.

The way that the map blends in, into the actual footage of these locations, and we see the trials, the perils that we hear Norey and the stranger talk about in the scene that precedes the song, the bugs, the bugs. But then you also see these moments of absolute harmony and companionship, passing around a drink, a little hesitant smile.

I just thought this was, like, so lovely. And I think the line about wondering and wandering is obviously the most germane in terms of the connection to the wider canon which we'll hit in the second. But I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead was like I'm getting emotional right now. I just thought that that was the essence of the spirit of the story

and like why we love to spend time with it and talk about it with each other. It was just so beautiful and so. so beautifully captured and presented to us. Like, I felt really lucky that we got to watch this. It was amazing. What did you think? I love you.

You know, for folks who are familiar with the Tolkien canon, I think the poem that Bilbo writes about Aragorn, that Gandalf sends in a letter at some point in Lord of the Rings, which is some of the most famous lines from the Lord of the Rings, which is all that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wonder are lost. The old that is strong does not wither. Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes of fire shall be woken. A light from the shadows shall spring. Renewed shall be blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king. Many a Tolkien nerd has this tattooed on their body somewhere. This is a very, very famous line. So to take not all those who wander are lost and make it that not all who wonder or wander are lost.

I love this idea that, you know, the Harfoot says these progenitors of the hobbits that an old walking song of Poppy's mom could sort of like make its way down the generations into find itself in Bilbo's verse here. And then there's also just these other aspects of that very famous verse, a light from the shadow shall spring.

Makes me think of the me thrill in this episode. renewed Shelby blade that was broken makes me think of that creepy blade key thing that's going on in our Andears plot and then the crownless again She'll be king, you know? Halburn says find another head to crown

essentially. So like all this stuff is in the mix here in a way that is familiar and new, which is sort of the whole thesis of this reboot you know, which is give you something that feels familiar but is a new take on it. So absolutely. Yeah.

I thought, I mean, I think everyone probably who heard that particular stretch of the song gasped and just got this surge of electricity and excitement going through us like the lightning, felling a methril creating tree, which we'll certainly talk about later. But I like to Joe, especially on the heels of that

just delightful little norie stranger seeing snails, snails, where you had made the comp previously that you suspected and thought that the way that they migrated and traveled was like similar to station 11 and the wheel. And we get like that confirmation here that there are these recurring stops and and and spokes on their wheel. And we've heard the members of the Harfoot community speak and these conversations

between Norie and Marigold in particular about staying on the path and not diverting and not pursuing the unknown. And the way that the unknown is such a pull for Norrie. in a fashion that thrills us as viewers, but genuinely scares the people around her. And so for this song, with again, that I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead, to embrace and celebrate the idea of the unknown

and the thing that is waiting for you just out of view, but that you will only see it and discover it for yourself, for yourself, if you are willing sometimes to stray off the path. I really love the idea that this would be a part of this family unit and this wider hardfoot culture, even though it is in some ways an opposition to a core tenant of their life. I thought that was really cool. Yeah, there's that line that was in the very first trailer, the Super Bowl trailer, that Noree line, haven't you ever wondered what else is out there beyond our wandering?

You know what I mean? That like wondering and wandering has been a key to this character from the beginning. And we see some limits of that curiosity for her in this episode. Before we get into that, we want to just, like, do one of our little, like, pauses to talk about a thematic through line in Tolkien. And I told Mallory texted me when she watched this episode. She's like, there's a song. Oh, my God. I was like, well, thank God because I've been wanting to do my songs in Tolkien.

Then I text me later. And I was like, there are two songs. Oh, my God. Your moment has arrived. But here's a rule. You have to sing every. thing to me right now. I should talk about it. Is that okay? Oh, my darling, if my larynx weren't busted, I would, but too sad. So I want to talk about a couple things. There's like a number of songs,

obviously the book is rich and dense with song and verse. Sometimes those songs make it into the film adaptations. Sometimes they don't. But I want to go back to like the core of what songs mean in this world that Tolkien is created because we talked about this a little bit, the opening credits where we see those bits of grit sort of resonated into various shapes. And what we talked about before was this idea of the Ina Lindelay, which is the great song or great music, that Aluvitar, the god of this universe used to sing the world into existence. So essentially, like music and song was used to create Middle Earth. to create the world, middle earth and beyond, I should say.

And when you watch that opening credit sequence and you see those dark bits of grit, make it into the beautiful harmonic vision, that's meant to signal this part of the Aina Lindelay, the great song, where Morgoth, aka Melkor, he's had various names, like all kinds of evil people in Tolkien, do. Let me read this section to you. When the choirs of the Ionar finally embark on the fully collaborative elaboration of Aluvitar's grand plan, Melkor participates with all the others,

yet he stands forth and inserts his very different thematic adornments which disrupts the harmony. One reason his music is so different is that he has spent too much time alone. So his themes appear to have a singular rather than contextual origin. The battle in the choir of the I&R rages back and forth with the music akin to Lovitar described as deep and wide and beautiful but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow from which its beauty chiefly came. Melchler's music on the other hand is said to have been loud and vain and endlessly repeated and an essay to drown the other music by the violence of its voice. Now, this is dense Tolkienian lore, but I think it gets too. to a much more basic idea, which is that idea of fellowship versus individual selfish goals and needs and thoughts.

What do you think, Mal, about that? Absolutely. Yeah, that singular distinction of the not only solo pursuit, but the effort to warp and control, it feels like it connects to that theme as well, which was, again, very present in this episode. what happens when you're trying to bend something to your will, whether it be a song or a special glittery or or somebody else's intention. So that feels very applicable to the episode that we just saw here.

And as you said earlier, this inextricable ever-present nature not only around but within, what wins out? It's really interesting to me because, like, Tolkien took, I think it's 20 years. years, I think it was. I think that's right to complete the Lord of the Rings trilogy and Mallory as an editor and me as a writer. We know what those conversations

were between his editor and him on a deadline. But I think that Can you just share me in on the Google Doc so I can get started? Even if you're still working on the kicker? Just like a few chaps. Just like, just why don't you kick over what you have so far? And then we'll go from there.

And Tolkien's just staring at a blank page. No, but like so So Tolkien was, you know, he was a philologist, a lover of language. He loved the medieval. And he would, he was something of like a magpie in that he would take like verses and songs and whatever of the Anglo-Saxon tradition, et cetera, and rewrite them or rework them. And so when he started to make his grand trilogy, which he didn't consider a trilogy, but when he decided to make this grand story of Lord of the Rings, he used a bunch of songs

and verses that he had already written that he sort of put in there and then bent the story to accommodate the songs and verses which I think is interesting and so like I don't know about you Mallory but when I was a kid first reading Lord of the Rings

I would often skip did you ever skip the verses of the songs because you were like yada yada I don't need to know about this here I don't think so but I can I could I'm curious to know why you did

you don't sit there and sing them to yourself I think just sometimes times I've definitely read them all at this point, but I think at a certain point when I first started, I was like, is this advancing the plot in any way? And what it is is advancing a lot of the themes. And something that we see in these songs that recur in in Lord of the Rings and in the Hobbit is that they're used to keep a history. A lot of the legends wind up in these verses in songs, to inspire, to mourn lost, and to create these distinctive cultures. We've seen that with like we've watched the dwarves sing and resonate with the rocks.

We get the hobbits, the Harfoots with their wandering song. We get the Numenorian song that is to like exult the glory of Numenor. Like that's what that song is about. And then if you want to say there's a third song in this episode, you can say that the Ork War Chant is a song if you decide. It's got a beat. Drums banging horns blaring. Yeah.

Do you have a favorite song either in the book or that is popped up in one of the films? Ooh, I think my favorite, great question, I think my favorite probably changes over time. And I have a, as is true with my favorite songs in real life, sometimes just my mood and of the moment dictates or informs what I feel myself like responding to. When I did my most recent rewatch ahead of rings of power, you'll know, you'll know what I'm about to say because I sang it to you and Brian on the dot moments pod. something about the Green Dragon song sequence in Return of the King. And part of it is the lyrics which I'd love. You keep your fancy ales. You can drink them by the flag.

But the only brew for the brave and true comes from the Green Dragon. What really sticks with me about that song is the contrast and clash of tone. Because you have Mary dancing singing. He and Pip have the ale. their hands. And it's this moment of community and celebration. But the look that passes between Pippin and Gandalf is like heart stopping and deeply, deeply harrowing. And this is, of course, after Pippin has touched the Palantir and has touched that darkness. And this idea that you could be surrounded by so many people who actually are working toward common cause and a common

goal and share something so intimate and deeply personal. And the isolation in the inside of that common cause. I've always just really loved about that moment. And it also connects to what they have left behind and are working to get back to, even though it feels so very far away. So that's the one that I think recently I've been gripped by the most. What about what about you? I think that and like something we should say is that like Peter Jackson has some songs in his films, but so many are cut. And I am all for the songs. And I want all the songs. And so I like how money we've gotten so far in this TV series. It makes me really happy. But for all its sins, I would say the song of the Lonely Mountain, far over the mystery mountain, that the dwarves sing

in The Hobbit, I just think is one of the most beautiful musical moments in any film or TV show. And that song is so interesting because it's used to keep that memory of what is lost, but also to keep the desire to reclaim that mountain that they lost alive. So I really, I really love that. I want to talk, I want to shout out. You mentioned Brian Cogman. I want to shout out our pal Brian Cogman, because on that episode we did to prep for this season of Rings of Power, he mentioned Lord of Rings music, which I had not listened to, but I've since listened to. And I just want to shout out if you go on Spotify or wherever you listen to music, but maybe make it Spotify.

You can listen to, I would just recommend a few tracks. I don't recommend, I don't co-sign the whole musical, but I would say the road goes on, which is Bilbo's Walking song famously from the books, the cat and the moon, which is a very, it's like a green dragon, like a very hobbitty song, very hobbitty tavern song. And then now and for always, which is that moment, you and I keep coming back to this idea of Frodo and Sam talking about, you know, will we be part of this legend? Will we be part of this story going forward? And something that I love about Bilbo's walking song in the way that that's used in the books is that the lyrics change depending on who's singing when.

Like Bilbo writes that song, the road goes on. And then changes the lyrics because he has changed at the end of his journey. And then Frodo sings it later and Frodo changes the lyrics because Frodo is on a very different journey than Bilbo. But it connects him to Bilbo. So I just think that that's just a really like, the strength, the cyclical nature, the ongoing, the story that were all continuously a part of nature of Tolkien and all of that. The book, too, right? You know, Frodo picking up Bilbo's tale and then leaving those pages for Sam. And there's that meta quality, too, as you've mentioned on prior pods about Tolkien actually welcoming that shared the stitching of the storytelling tapestry, which is.

Probably worth keeping in mind as we talk about some of the other things in this episode. Yeah. You're not going with Ghalm's song for your fave. No? So juicy sweet. So juicy sweet. Can I just say Adam sings that literally all the time? Like, I'm not exaggerating.

He sings it multiple times per week when he's in the kitchen making food all the time. It's great. Our pal Dave Gonzalez likes to his favorite. character and uh laura the rings is tom bombadil tom bombadil who's like constantly just singing sing narrating whatever he does but also when tom bombadil like shows up to save frodo he uses a song to banish the barrow white so like the idea that like a song can be like a weapon a defense a protection as well i think it's really interesting or comfort you know makes me think a phoenix song oh but scenes from marriage i love knowing that adam uh sings about fish all right so that's that's

send you a video next time he does it least do that's our that's our sort of mini song lecture if you have any other thoughts or feelings about you know what a crime it was to cut vigo mortons and singing the lay of luthian from the uh the atchical edition of fellowship of the ring that's great you can email me hobbs and dragons um drink it by the flag and at gmail.com all right so let's talk about the stranger and what we get in this episode you already mentioned those sort of peril chat we get this moment where the stranger strangers concerned that he's a danger. And to me, you know, we've had so many theories about the stranger.

Oftentimes we talk about this in Theory Corner, but I'm happy to bring this up into Ring 1 and just say that, like, I feel confident saying that this is a good guy, a guy who at least like wants to be good and is afraid of the darkness inside of him that would, you know, snuff the lights out of a bunch of fireflies. What do you think, Mallory? That's where I am as well. we definitely got multiple moments in this episode, though, that I think are designed to make us question that

or to make, as you said, him question that. And I really liked that part of it because that aspect of doubt, self-doubt, is really central to the story. You know, if you are unsure about your own worth and then other people that seeps in, a blight on the leaf, right, that seeps into the land or the circle around you,

and then other people maybe start to wonder or doubt as well. And so to see like across this episode, we go from this really sweet peril, killing these terms, danger from Nori to the stranger. And he mimics what happened with the fireflies. And it's like this thing that is weighing on him, what transpired with the fireflies,

that he could be capable of robbing a living, breathing being of its light, of its life. And it's something that we see really, like, disturbs him. And so when that disturbance then shifts to the person who was trying to convince him not to feel that way, that shifts to Norrie after the water healing. We get the Hulk smash moment with the wolves where he's bending them, often serving as protector. Stranger! Smash! And has to heal his arm.

And he's so lost in the magic that for a moment, you know, we and Noria are meant to wonder, I think, has that... Because we think of magic in the story often is wonderful, but also often hear about the darkness of a certain sorcery. And we see, again, like, the trees bending in and has that gripped and morphed something about him. There's that one very, like, menacing facial expression. lingering shot after Dory runs off

that I think is meant to like heightened suspicion. And we do get a couple other cuts that I think are notable, but ultimately I'm still in. These are red herring or misdirect camps or part of his journey of working through this doubt

and this discovery. You know, we get the cut from the lovely poppy song to the meteor man, site exploration, which we'll hit more in a second. And then later, When Muriel is speaking to her father,

we end that scene on the word darkness and cut right to a close-up of the stranger's face. So there are definitely like a lot of moments in this episode that are meant to arouse our suspicion, but we also just got a lot of like, I don't know, he's just like harum-fing and making an expression that's like exactly like Gandalf. Other moments in this episode.

So I'm in, you know, magical good guy. wizard wear it a gray robed territory for sure but I think it's okay to be wondering in episode five not all who wonder are lost Joe no we should say that in their journey that montage that we get as Poppy is singing there's we see on the map the gray marshes

which I believe are the same as the dead marshes that Sam and Gullum and Frodo traverse and so this idea that I'm not going to do a geography lesson, but I believe that the wheel that the hardfoots are on is leaving. What a Palpatine whisper from you. One does not do it. Do it.

Unlimited geography. I think they're simply walking into Before Door. I do. I think they're on their way to Before Door. And we know that the Numenorians are on their way there, right? Because Hallibrand. So it seems like a lot of these disparate storylines are potentially about to collide, which is something, you know, we would see all the time on thrones or lost.

I just think of like people marching across the island and lost, and they're definitely heading towards someone else's plotline. So something that the meteor man, the stranger says is he's like trying to heal his own arm is he uses the quenia, which is elfish language, word for renewal, which again has a very positive association. However, as you just teased, we get the site where he landed and we get like probably the most ominous looking people we've seen so far in this whole thing. Like, eat your heart out at our, these are way scarier, the cultists. In the credits, they're listed as the nomad, the ascetic, and the dweller. We get really scary musical cue when they show up.

A lot of creepy whispering. Exceedingly ominous. Yeah. Very creepy whispering. Yeah. And when they show up, they show up at the meteor site and they have this shield, this sort of like, I don't know, a serving platter that I would put my Thanksgiving turkey on. And it's got the same constellation that the stranger has been sort of looking after. So there's this connection between these cultists and the stranger.

But does it mean that the stranger is, like the surface read you could have is, this is definitely Sauron and these are his followers and they're like, where's our boss? We got to come help him. Or is something else going on? I mean, like last week, Waldrig, are someone who is definitely to be trusted, seemed to think that the meteor going through the sky was the return of Sauron, right? Or Sauron, as he said, right? And so like, have you heard of him, lab?

Power. But like, just because the cultists think that the stranger is Sauron or whatever, maybe they do, does that mean that he is? I don't know. What do you make of these very, very ominous figures? I'm very spooked. I'm unsettled. And I like the idea, like that the stranger is questioning, am I the peril? and then we have this moment that pulls us back into,

maybe you're just in peril. Now are they in pursuit because there's some, is it another misdirection? Like, are they in pursuit because they want to eliminate Meteor Man or use Meteor Man's magic or power to their end, possibly? Or could there be another unexpected alignment and alliance? You know, we have a lot of, you mentioned the constellation, There's a lot of stargazing in this episode.

We get the song ends with Nori watching The Stranger looking up into the stars. We have a very meaningful Elrond stargazing moment later elsewhere in the episode on the heels of another very moving exchange about his father. And this time is so there's a lot of a lot of stargazing and star watching in this episode are our gal. Melva asks Saddick, like what is going on here? Why is the forest in this state and the conversation? about it's him, right? You know, the big fella, he's to blame. I think that throughout the episode,

there's a similar, it's of a piece, even though it's obviously very different with the reveal that this blight had taken hold in Linden. The tree that we learned is the symbol of the very vitality of our people. We learned that in the premiere. We thought, based on the editing

at the end of the premiere, that that was happening in that moment in real time because of the decision about Exximate. in Galadriel, but we learn here that that's not the case that had already said in, and the decision to push her out was in part a response to that. And so similarly with this conversation about is the big fella causing this, maybe he was sent because it's already happening. And maybe the cultists are a part of that in either direction. So I think this question of what is the order of

events, we don't yet totally know, but we're starting to learn more. And a lot of the characters have an incorrect read on who is responsible for what. And that is, of course, deliberate because then it sews the seeds of mistrust and suspicion. Yeah, it's interesting because in Lord of the... I think this is true that in Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, both, it sort of felt like whatever Gandalf said was the correct interpretation. Like, Gandalf was never wrong. So if Gandalf said something was true or if Gandalf pointed us a direction,

then we knew what the correct direction was, right? And there's no such guiding force here. But there's no such guiding force here. right? It's like you would to figure it out. And like, you know, Frodo and Sam experience that when they are, you know, off on their own. But there's no getting forced in all of this. Like I would say there's no one character who I'm like, they know what they're doing definitely. Because even Galadryl and even Gil Gallid, which began this episode, like there's no one where I'm like, they've got it all figured out. Let's talk about Numeron. Let's talk about Galadriel. So I have a question for you. And I, I have a question for you. I don't know what's going on. It might be one of those legality. What can we say? What can we say things?

But I think it's really weird that the Newman-Orens aren't talking about their extended lifespan. Like, I feel like if you're watching the show as a casual watcher and you don't know the lore, you don't know that the Newman-Norians live longer than men do, that they are almost a different race entirely. Like, what do you make of that, Mallory? I agree that this is quite strange. You know, when we chatted about what we were.

were looking forward to heading into the show, and I said that Newonore was like top of my list. That was a huge part of the reason why how that long life leads to so many missteps and so much hubris or like the taste of something. It is not immortality, but if you get the taste of it, then do you seek and crave more? I'm particularly puzzled by the omission in a show that has spent a lot of time in the inside of the relationships between elves and dwarves. on how the length of your life and your relative perspective and experience about the passage of time shapes the way that you think about things. And including, I know we're on Dubinor here, but it made me think of it, so I'll just hit it here. The most iconic moment of the show to date by

far, which was during a dinner saying typically takes you people weeks just to decide to take a shit and then Elrod cutting him off. Incredible. So there's a lot of, lot of time spent on how your view and version of events differs based on how long you're living to not be getting that for this group of Numenorians who live hundreds of years is quite odd. The person who seems the most focused on like Numenorian supremacy and ambition is our guy Faris on. We get a bit more information about him. It's a very interesting figure because he is like supporting Miriel where he may, but also, you know,

reveals to his son and his son's like, how could you support this? Like, you're the one who helped get the king out of power. Like, you're the one who turn the whole kingdom around. How can you support us helping an elf? And Farisana's like, you know,

take orders from an elf. No, there's a bigger plan here. And essentially, he lays out this, like, colonizer language of, like, you know, a king forever in our debt, resources, like all the stuff that we could get from Middle Earth, a Middle Earth that is subservient to us.

How do you feel about the way that Farisana is revealed there and also, like, how his son Kemman and Iyarion are like circling around him in this episode? So disturbed broadly. Farisand's plainly spoken desire in conversation with his son to have a king and a stretch of Middle Earth indebted to them, trading favors, plying them with riches. We are trained inside of this universe to expect characters like that to make mistakes,

to make grave, grave, grave errors in their pursuit of that kind of end. And you pair that with, you know, we have to have. heard in prior episodes how he knows everybody's name. There's not a name he doesn't know, a hand he can't shake. When Kemen challenges him, one of the many really pleasant father son exchanges in this episode. And there's that really like intense moment where just with a little raising of the eyebrow, a tilt of his head, Farazan can get people to leave his orbit. It really cements the degree of control and influence that he has in that city. And it's in contrast in this episode to Muriel experiencing a lot of doubt on the heels of the conversation, the harrowing

conversation that she has with her father. She's like, I'm doing exactly the thing you want. And he's like, update. Don't do that thing. Actually, only darkness. Waits for you. No. So, Kemen, Farazan, the thing that really shook me was Kemen. Because last episode, we were like, yeah, Kemen, Aarean, we ship it, young love, how great. And this episode, I'm like, uh, we got a bunch of young, like, fascists on our hands and racists on our hands. and Kemen was willing to do something terrible

to actually put into action the hatred that he's feeling. For him, it felt more clear. This is really something that he feels and believes. Aiarian, I was just, be honest, was actively confused by this. This was one of the things that did not work for me as well in this episode. My read on this, and I could be really wrong, but my read on it was he does all of that because she's like, you have to stop them.

And that her reasoning for stopping it is she doesn't want her father and her brother to go and die on Middle Earth. Like she doesn't want them to leave. And that he, having had only one date with her, is willing to commit some sort of grand scale sabotage in order for her to get what she wants. That was what I thought initially too, but then revisiting it. The things that he is saying in his conversation with his father are just laden with hate and bigotry. No, no. I mean, I think he has drunk. his father's Kool-Aid.

Like, absolutely he has. But I think his main motivator in this episode is the girl he has a crush on. And like, for her, sorry, what do you want to say? No, you've got, I want to say something face. Well, no, I'm just, I'm confused, though, because I think you're right that she definitely seemed worried about her family. And I'm also like, did Sildor not tell her he was leaving? She's like running after the troops at the end.

That was all. That's like this old. family. Y'all need to talk more. But when, when Ayrian and Kemen are speaking, if that is her motive, then I think she could just say, I'm worried about my family, but instead she says wrongly in terms of like what the loyalty of the people toward Muriel. She says wrongly about that. So she is like, she is actively expressing an opinion of dissent, I think, which felt just like different than the vibe we had gotten to that point. I was a little. I was a little thrown by that.

Let's keep her eye on her. Let's talk about Isildur and his pals. And I have just like a really major note here. Okay. A Seildor has essentially two friends. Yeah. Valandale and On Tomo. At one point, Valandil's like, I'm mad at you, Isildor, but you were my best friend.

In fact, I think you're still my best friend. And Entomo's like, uh, excuse me? So my question is, Antamo, can you do better when it comes to friends, maybe? Perhaps. I thought your note was going to be. It's incredibly easy to get a promotion on Numenor. And if in a drill exercise, you are basically killed 45 times, but managed to get one nick of fabric in and you're promoted to lieutenant.

I have some concerns about the mission. I don't know. Do you think you could get a hit on Galadriel after watching your fight? I just would have, if I were Galadriel and Lendiel, I would have said nobody got lieutenant today. Let's come back tomorrow and see some hustle. excited about the work. I loved that sequence. First of all, the score was incredible.

I thought the choreography was great. I loved watching Halibrand and watch her. I thought that was really, really good stuff. I do like this, you know, Valandil, Asildur's friend is constantly giving, like, rightly so challenging him on Asildor's assumption that, like, he should get what he wants when he wants it. And Alendil also does, right?

Aseildur says to his dad, Slip me to the front of the line. And then his dad's like, let's take a look at your resume and all the various things you've washed out of. That Establishing Aseldor as a corner cutter. And I love the thing that Alendale says here is like, you're failing fidelity to the traditions of this aisle.

Like the idea, again, it's about your culture and Numeror, especially like all these various guilds and all these various ways in which you can work yourself up the ladder in the culture. but you have to learn a craft and earn your way. And Asildor basically assumes by his birth, by being Elendale's son, he deserves to be there as well, whereas Valandial has worked his way up various ladders. I like that they keep coming back to this moment. I had kind of like two competing responses to that in both the conversation with Alendal and the conversation that Assyl Dor has with Valendale because I think that you're right and that was my primary. response, it's like there's an entitlement on display with the Sealdor that is notable.

And I think that broadly the responses from his friend and his father are meant to nurture and guide and genuinely come from a position of love and care. But there is this like broader jingoistic quality to the things that the people of Newman or say that I think is like meant to put us on our heels of it. I've told you before that there's this Tolkien professor, Corey Olson, who I like to listen to a lot. And he was talking a lot about this really interesting way in which, you know, the sea is always right, which is this phrase we keep hearing from the Newman Orients, right? And this idea that the Newman Orients have replaced adoration or worship of the valor of the gods with this worship of the sea, that the sea is always right. and they pay homage to the sea because they are in defiance of the gods, because they have decided to separate them from the gods. And also this really interesting, you know,

do you remember, like, down in the prison cells where Halbrin and Galadriel Kelp, there's this, like, incredible statue of this woman with, like, incredible flowing hair? That's one of the sea goddesses. And it's, like, I think it's noteworthy that this incredible statue, this goddess is just shoved down into, like, the cells in the prison cells. right? Like these images of the valar of the gods are being erased from the Numenorian culture and instead they are worshipping the sea. Like the sea is our guiding point. The sea is always right. So you're absolutely right, I think, that this sort of like jingoistic, sometimes fascistic language is something that should be pushed back on. I just have trouble believing that Isildor is the right person to be doing that pushing. Do you know what I mean?

Right. Yeah. Absolutely. My last note on that part of the plot is that I know you're not supposed to be like, horny on Maine about Lord of the Rings, but the Lendale Whig, it's just top-notch and I'll say it every pod. Weig watch. It's fantastic. As they leave, I want to point out this really fun detail. Like, you know,

when we talk about this show and like the way in which there's so much detail that shows how much the people wrote this show are scholars of Tolkien's text. Here's a passage from unfinished tales, the Mariners' wife. It says, here must be told the custom that when a ship departs from Numenor over the great sea to Middle Earth, a woman most often of the captain's kin, should set upon the vessels prow, the green bow of return. The green bow of return is capitalized. And that was cut from the tree Iolare that signifies ever summer, which the Eldar gave to the Numenorian saying that they set it upon their own ships in token of friendship. The leaves of that tree were evergreen, glossy, and fragrant, and it throve upon the sea.

And what's so cool is that when you watch these boats depart from the Numenorian Harbor, you can see the boughs of that plant woven in among the prow of the ship on this arch over the bells. And I'm just like, that's just a detail that they cared enough to put in there. And I just think that that's incredible stuff. Love it. All right. Speaking about being Hornier on Maine for Lord of the Rings, let's talk about Galadjaro and Hallibrand. Oh, God. you've already talked about Miriel and Tara Palantir in their conversation,

but let's talk about Halibranda Galadriel. And a really interesting development for Galadryl's character in this episode, I think is some self-awareness that we've been looking for from her. Like her single focused, I know I'm right, propulsive story, has really lacked that moment of, maybe if everyone is telling me I'm fucking up, I should take a look inwards. And I feel like Hal Brand pushes her into that moment in this episode.

Would you agree with me? Or how do you feel about that? I'm conflicted because I think that you're identifying something crucial. But I think Galadriel is still in the place in her arc where that is entirely backward-looking. That level of self-awareness. Like she's able to say this thing and share this really meaningful, consequential detail when he, when he pushes her and pushes her. And she says of the mutiny, each of them acted as they did because I believe they could no

longer distinguish me from the evil I was fighting. This is this huge moment, this huge thing for this character to say out loud and have to confront. But then when we are looking ahead, how is that self-awareness impacting the decisions that she's making? She's still saying, you are the king of the Southlands. You must come with us on this mission. we must crown you so that we can thwart the evil that I and I alone can contend with.

So I think it's like one step forward, one step forward, two steps back for Galadro, right? Like sums of awareness, not complete sub-awareness. Carlos, can you play this interesting exchange here? When these people discover it, they will cuss me out. So will you. Sometimes to find the light. We must first touch the darkness. I thought this scene was incredible, both for the staging which you mentioned, where he's advancing on her and she's advancing on him.

The like tears swelling in both of their eyes as they're talking about this, the incredible, like, you hear the fire sound fully in the background, but just sort of like the flame sort of licking on their faces. And this idea, again, of for both of these characters, no matter who, Halberin may be. Like for both of these characters, that war of light and darkness within of them, I think is so explicit here. And are they drawing out the light in each other or are they delving into the darkness in each other? Like, what are we seeing here? What do you think, Mal? What did you make of, do I always ship it?

What did you make of the unique filmmaking there? like the way that the camera moved in that, in that particular moment of challenge, but also then that moment of vulnerability and opening up and sharing something because there was a closeness to the quarters there and an intimacy that was very intentional and difficult to shake.

But of course, like throughout that entire conversation, we kind of can't lose sight of the thing we talked about so much last week, which was that Halbrand line of in an instance like this, it seems to me that you do well to identify what it is that your opponent most fears and exploit it? No. Give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them. And what is so interesting about that in this episode, episode, episode five, is that both of these characters speak openly to each other about trust and being used and whether they have used each other.

So it's not like this is even just an internal back of your mind, like musing. This is an active part of their dialogue and their exchange, and I like that, that the impulse has been, like, made text. But what did you think about the framing and the actual set choreography and scene design of that? So interesting. What I think we're meant to see, and again, it goes back to, you know, Galadryal overtly references it, but it goes back to what her brother Finnrod said to her about reflected light. And I think we're really supposed to see these two characters as reflections of each other, mirrors of each other maybe or something like that. And I just think that like the affinity that

they find in each other, the surprising affinity that they find in each other, I think is a really powerful draw. We see him. We see Hallbrand in this episode. I think very overtly do something that he never intended to do because Galadriel pushed him to do it. Take a bath? I know you mean suit up and join the army and head back to the Southlands, but is it also take a bath finally? Could that be it? Is that one of the things he finally does? I was like, oh, look, he's in armor, but also finally clean. Yay. At least he, like, changed his clothes before.

Smith and is sweaty work, you know? Yeah. Smith and is sweaty work. It's true. What do you make of the, of the way the scene is Sean Frank? Yeah, I think that's, that's beautiful. That feels right to me. I love it.

It was just, it felt like such a purposeful shift in that moment, really meant to draw our eye and our attention. All right, let's go to the Southlands. Speaking of light and dark, we get this really interesting. moment with Adar and the orc and the sun. And I think we got a bunch of emails about this and I think we didn't make clear. I think something that I thought was pretty apparent, but I should have stated last week. Because this is an idea that like the reason that the orks are calling Adar father or Lord

father is what we get in this episode. Is this maybe this idea that the orcs were bred from Adar? We saw in the first episode when Galadriel and her Elvin warriors were in the frozen wastelands that they saw this sort of like. or elf figure sort of frozen into the wall. And it's like what dark arts are afoot here. Like this idea of the orcs all came from somehow Adar. And in that way, Adar is the father of these orcs.

Is that your understanding as well of what we're looking at here? Maybe. I think that could be one possible interpretation. I think also it could just be that he is their leader and guide and protector and nurturer and that they have adopted him as a father. has adopted them as his legion of flesh-melting children. Show me your arm so that it can burn in the sun. So I have been interpreting it more that way,

but I do think it could be quite, I do think it could be literalized, absolutely. And I think, again, this idea that, again, that through line of light and dark existing inside of someone at our seeming to promise his orc children, his flesh-melting orch children, a sunless future, right? Soon it will be gone and with it.

The part of me that knew its warmth as well, I shall miss it. A sunless future, but also revealing to us, the viewer, that Adar is not, has, still has a part of him that exists in the light and is intent on snuffing that out

in order to create a new world for his orc babies, right? Right. Is that same moment? Yeah, and I think we, I think that was present in that conversation that he shared with Arondare last week, too. You know, you noted when we were breaking down Nazi in the way that he spoke of the blossoms, spreading over the land and the memory and the roots and everything from the past. And there is an almost disorienting fondness in his voice when he says these things, like a fondness of that memory, but also this conviction to make the world anew. And, you know, when he said last week to untangle it all,

would all but require the creation of a new world, but that is something only the gods can do. And I am no God at least not yet. Orandeur reminds us of that moment in this episode when he is speaking to Bronwyn and sharing this. And I think that it's this seeking to unmake the world of light. Yeah. To make one of darkness, you know, in the land of life.

or where the shadows lie. It's that environmentalism theme that you've mentioned. It's the sub-creator theme that we've chatted about. This, this pursuit to destroy and unmake rather than grow and nurture and tend and how those are in direct opposition to each other. And I think that this kind of darkness and light rid the world of its sunshine presence in this episode, you know, we just chatted about the darkness and light with Galadriel and Halbran. but you also can then connect that to the conversation with Muriel and Tar Palantir. He mentions the darkness. And of course, which we'll get to it more soon and in the particulars of it, the light of the

Eldar and the Mithril. And this is present throughout every storyline in this episode, this question of light and dark. And so you pair what he's seeking to do here with the sun with this idea of the fading light of the Ldar or the Mithril being able to potentially pour the light of the, the similar real, which contains the light of the two trees, back into the world, you have some conflict there about light and darkness, which was stretched across every storyline in this episode. We had a lot of emails about the fact that we were talking about some hints of Mount Doom, Mount Doom, whether it's in the, like, the map that the map slash brand that Sauron put

out there in the world or the volcano in the background of some of these village shots, but it's avertly mentioned. We might have talked about this as another ring, but I'm bringing it to ring one because it's overtly mentioned in last week's episode. Bronwyn says that they've got refugees coming from Oro-Druin, I think I pronounced that correctly, which is just another name for Mount Doom. So, like, Mount Doom got a name drop in last week's episode. So it's also just right there when they're looking at the map in Numenor.

It's just there. It's just there. So, you know, that's something to think about when it comes to light and dark and covering the world. Cover all the land in the second darkness. Let's talk about, I want to talk about Adar some more in the scene with Waldraig. So Waldraig rallies, rallies all the creeps, shows up to Adar's camp, is like, Sauron, I worship you.

Adar's like, who the fuck do you think I am? I'm not Sauron. He's like, okay, whoever you all worship you anyway, apparently slits the throat of Rowan, couldn't have happened to a worse guy. I won't miss you at all. Rowan, you were a terrible friend, Theo. Talk to be for Rowan here. What do you make of Adar's reaction to Waldrick calling him Sauron?

I don't know. He seemed incredibly angry about this. And I think you can interpret it, yeah, in a couple different ways. One, if he is a lieutenant of Sauron, if he works for him and worships him the way that his works worship him and there's this reverence in that direction, maybe he would say, like, how dare you insult my overlord by implying that I mirror. Adar could be the great Sauron. It could be that. Or perhaps they are in conflict in opposition with each other, which would be a twist on what we had been assuming to this point. And it was

such a shocking response that it was difficult not to interpret it that way. So that's currently where I am, which is not where I was expecting to be in episode five. What about you? It's exactly where I am. I'm like, I don't think, I don't think this guy works for Sauron at all. Saran, where are you? Is he challenging? Is he a challenger then? Power hates a vacuum, you know what I mean? If Sauron took like a day trip up to Mess with the Elves or something like that,

like, you know, maybe Adder's like, I see an opportunity to climb the ladder, the corporate ladder of Before Door. We've got Bronwyn and we got an update on the Hilt here. The, you know, last week Waldrag is like, it's not a sword. It's a power. And this week, Aaron Deer's like, it's not a sword. It's a key. so it's a power, it's a key.

Really, really interesting moment. We get this idea again of craft and smithing, which is, of course, something heavily associated with Sauron. Any thoughts or theories? I mean, usually we say this for Theory Corner. I just have nothing in Theory Corner about this. So any ideas about, because this is not anything from the text, so we don't know what this is.

So like, any thoughts or ideas about. Okay, so I have a couple thoughts. One, I was struck. not only as I always am by your impression of Waldrick's saying power, which is like

my single favorite thing happening right now. It's just great. To move across plot lines for a second and then I'll hop right back but as we've noted many times today, there are these through lines

and bits of connective tissue across the plot lines. And so I was really struck when Elrond and Gilgallid are talking about the me-thril that this same language recurs. a power. Forging of their conflict, a power, Elrond says, and then Gilgallad's response. And again, we'll talk about the methral specific stuff in a few minutes. A power as pure and

light as good, as strong and unyielding as evil. So we have a couple different things now being referred to in this way, a power that also connect to darkness and light. Doesn't feel like an accident. In terms of the statue, the uncoversed, Theo, just a good kid out of a sudden, just like wants to make it work. Challenges around here for a couple seconds. And then it's like, let me reveal my deepest, darkest secret to you. Here's this hilt, or rather, power. And then Arundir, the unearthing, right, pulling beneath the vines, this, again,

connection between something like man-made and the natural elements of the earth overtaking it, this statue where we see the power piercing through binding man. And we get this interesting moment where we hear Bronwyn, who is horrified by this and horrified by what this might mean for Theo, of course, saying you were right to watch over us because we are destined for the darkness. There we get the theme of destiny and the theme of darkness in one. It's how we survive. Perhaps it's who we are, who we will always be. And so the key, the way that Arande is phrasing this is this is a key. cut between Halbrand

revealing to Galadriel like you don't know what I did they don't know what I did and when they find out it's a wrap for me we cut that is cut with the shot of Adar ordering Waldrick to bind himself

in blood with the sacrifice right so the implication at least is that Halbrand did something similar to survive in the South The cut would imply that. Yeah. Right.

And so who is bound in blood to Adar, to this power? And so this idea of a key, well, what do keys do? They unlock, but they also then port you into something. So does the health the power? Is it the key in the way that it binds the realm of men to Sauron's? Is that a part key? Is that a question? Is it a port key?

To Sauron's power? Will it be the thing that ultimately unlocks the. fires of Mountain Doom for the forging of the one ring ever heard of it? I mean, the show is called

Rings of Power. So this idea of the various powers that people are in pursuit of whether they're elves or man or whatever, this is the idea of what Sauron can offer

them, the power that they seek to protect and defend their own. There isn't their own, right? I like that you brought up portkeys

however unintentionally because we got we did get a couple emails about this idea. You know, we see the sword mark, Waldrig and also Theo, sort of, you know, bite into their flesh, right? I've got a couple emails from people saying it reminded them a lot of the dark mark in Harry Potter, this idea of like, you know, you're branded forever with your association. The sword has tasted, or the key, the power has tasted your blood. And like, what does that mean for Theo, like even if he decides to stay with his mom and take archery lessons for our rondeer,

is it too late for him if the sword has already tasted his blood? Right. Well, I'll throw another potterism out there. Is it like in a breakable vow? I'm concerned about Theo. We're worried. All right. Last one at least, Lyndon, we've already touched on a few things.

Doran just being an absolute delightful party guest. That's so funny. The incredible table con. Love it. But the big thing that we keep alluding to is this whole mythology of how Mithril came to be in the first place. This is a massive show invention. And okay, so usually we record this before the episode comes out. Today we're recording it late. So I have the advantage of seeing how people are reacting. And let me just tell you the book, Faithle are having some issues with this origin story for the Mithril. This is a big, a big update. Tolkien never gave an origin story for Mithril. Never. said sort of where it came from. And there I

I like it. I have questions about it. I like it. But basically we get this idea of an elf and a Balrog do battle in the light of a simeral. Really, we know where all the simerals was. So we're so what simeral is this? I have questions. But like the light of the simirel is refracted down into

the earth. gorgeous imagery. the battle of an elf versus a ballrog makes book readers think of this character glorffindel who peter jackson's fans might go who and the book readers will say well that was who was supposed to take froto to rivendell but they put irwin in there anyway um lorffindel fought a ballrog it's a whole it's a whole thing in the first stage so like this is a glorffindel illusion without saying Glorferendell because probably legally they can't. But it's connecting the mithril to elves, to the light of

Airendil, which we've talked about, to the cimmeril, to ballrogs, to Mordor, the idea that the digging for the mithril will unearth the ballrog and lead to the destruction of Cazadun, etc. It's a big lore update, a big swing.

Yeah. How do you feel about it, Mallory? as I was watching it in real time, I was like, this is going to make some people mad for sure. But I'm keeping an open mind for a few different reasons. One of which we'll talk about in a minute,

which is how sure should we be that this is exactly, exactly right? And how much weight should we be putting on the word apocryphal? We'll hit that in a minute. From a storytelling, okay, actually, let's step back for a second.

We talk about this with Star Wars a lot. And I don't think that there's one writer a wrong answer all the time. It is always specific to the rendering and the updating question. But I will just say that broadly, while I am often a, that wasn't in the books viewer, often. That is how I watch and respond to what I'm seeing when it feels different. And it takes me a while usually to process that and get comfortable with those kinds of updates. I feel equally strongly that I don't want stories. We've mentioned the Sam quote again today. Like if we're all part of this same ever-spinning forward-moving tail, then there has to be room within that

for something new. And so I remain generally or I try to open-minded about expanding the lore. And I think one of the things that genuinely excited me about rings of power was the opportunity to expand and build on the lore. Will every single thing work? No, of course not. but I'm also not going to be opposed to the very idea of widening the mythology when I think that's part of the proposition of the exercise. In terms of what we actually got, it was from an acting and a writing and a visual rendering sequence. I thought this part of the episode was really great.

I love basically every Elron scene, as you know, trying to get a read on our High King Gill, trying to get a read on Gill. but I loved the way that this captured so many of the themes that we're talking about the elven warrior pouring in the light the ballerog pouring in the hate and the evil the lightning striking down there was just this poetry as elrond was recounting this tale this song and it's another it's called a song joe right the song of the roots of he thagliar so another song another passage you did that pronunciation I tried and failed, but I tried passing down of legend,

forging of their conflict of power. The idea of me through being the product of this is interesting to me for a couple reasons, as is what will come out of this revelation if it is in fact true and canonical. One of which is Elrond saying to Duren, a burden shared may either be halved or doubled, depending on the heart that receives it. Great line and really connects to that larger question of when you are in opposition and when you are in fellowship.

I think that Mithril itself is on earthed from inside of the mountain, inside of the minds, this place of darkness and the light shining out from within it, this light that may actually have the power to restore, it is in many ways this theme of the story given form, this theme of the story given physical, tangible shape.

But my question is, like, is that a true light or is that the false reflected light? You know? Well, I Gilgallad would say hope is never mere, you know? Even when it is meager, Joe. What do you think? Do you think that this is a lie? Do you think that this is either an active con and deception

or a misinterpretation of, a legend or do you think that this is actually real? First, I want to shout out this email we got from a listener, Alec, who said, so Gilgalad says the light of the Eldar is fading. And Alec wrote, Gilgalad saying the light of the Eldar is fading in rings of powers, like Ned Stark saying winter is coming in season one of Thrones because Elron's still saying it in Lord of the Rings. So this is the light of the Eldar is fading is something that's going to be happening for a

long time, I suppose. Even though Calibranda was like, TikTok, deadline is spring. let's go. What we need to be asking ourselves, we've already seen Gil Gallid and Calibranbor overtly manipulating Elrond. It seems to me like they knew about his friendship with Doran and put him in this position so that he could get them in somewhere that they couldn't get in because they knew Mithra was there and they knew that they wanted it.

I don't really fully understand their plan, but Caliburne Moore seems to have a plan with how Mithril is going to. the me thrill in the forge and everybody does some like in a tanning bed a big old mithril oven tanning bed i'm thinking like the dark crystal and how like the gelflings need to anyway um i don't know what the plan is exactly but they seem to have a plan they're not letting elrond in on every single twist and turn of the plan gil gallet has this really ominous staring down at elrond and duren in the beautiful autumnal forest moment. So the question is,

how much are we to believe any of this? And knowing that we don't know right now where Sauron is, but knowing that in the story Sauron has, is manipulating people, that's all he does. Like, how much is a Sauron behind the scenes manipulation happening here? I think we need to call into question a lot of these stories that we hear. We've heard a lot of slant to tell.

like Galadriel's prologue tale of the first age, Elrond's tale of his father, Farisand's story of how men and men alone defeated evil. These are all slanted tales that don't tell the full story. So I think we always need to be questioning who's telling the tale. And to what end, again, we don't have a reliable narrator like Gandalf, who will just straight tell us a story. You know, we've got these other people with their sort of their ambitions, their agendas, and the story is being manipulated that way.

I think it's a great point because we talk often and we actually got a delve to deep line in this episode, you know, of course there to make us think of this delve too greedily and too deep, Duren's bane reckoning and cause a doom. And to get the idea here that the elves could be leading and goading and pushing the dwarves toward that destruction. and then you go one step back, and it's like, well, who is that

maybe someone is leading and guiding the elves? And what would be the way to do that? Now, the blight on the tree, the decay, the way that that reflects this real peril, there's the idea of peril again,

that's there. But what would be the way to then warp and manipulate the elves to the end that you're seeking, appealing to the light, this connection to the two trees, to this light of Valenor,

to the power of the similar ill would be a way to get the elven power to work toward your end. And so, you know, I liked that hope is never mirror Elrond even when it is meager Gilgolad line, which feels pure. But then let's look at the next thing he said. When all other senses sleep, the eye of hope is first to awaken, last to shut. What do we usually think of when we hear a mention of an eye in this story? So warping hope by turning it into despair. Gilgolada says Saran.

The idea that Saran would just be like, I really need this to happen. So here's your dinner table would be great. Anything else we want to say in our deep dive here? I don't think so. Really sweet moment. I mean, again, perhaps nefarious things at play, but sad in the conversation between

Kellebrimbor and Elrond, on the heels of the conversation between, Elrond and Yulglad. We talked so much last week about oaths. And you see, it is weighing on Elrond, what breaking this, what breaking this oath means and to have that that pull of needing to protect your people. But what does that mean if it comes at the expense of a friendship that you hold sacred to your fellowship? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that Calibranbor is someone who I just absolutely do not trust at any moment. So tough beat for Calibram for. All right. Flotsam and Jetsam.

Easter eggs and references. Yeah. You already mentioned delving you ever deeper. That's what how it says. It's great. Great shit. Give me the meat and give it to me raw. Another thing that you've mentioned is makes us think of Ghalm, right?

Give it to me raw. Wriggly. Oh, God. The stone giants get a mention. That's a fun lore thing. Did you think when they toasted to the union at their dinner table, that that's a Hamilton reference. That's what I've decided.

I've decided that's a Hamilton lyric reference. And then, okay, I know you made fun of me for putting horse stuff in the dock before, but you have to admit that the Newmanorian helmets look like the Rohan helmets, right? And they have horses on all of their sword hilts. They're all horse heads. Did you see the shot of the horse being hoisted aloft onto the ship?

We had a whole incredible conversation. when a seal door's like, I'm the only one who doesn't get to go. Even Barrick gets to go. Barrick recruited. Yeah. Fuck you, Isildor. All right. Oh, God.

So, yeah, the spirit of Rohan is alive, if not quite actually established in the world yet, aka horse stuff. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors.

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if you don't want to hear about theorizing. Now's time to scram. A conspiracy unmasked. Our weekly, Who's That Guy, Best Guesses and Thoughts. We've already talked about The Stranger a bunch. But I want to just float this new theory I saw, which I kind of liked, this man in the moon theory. Because as you mentioned, when Poppy Song concludes, and we get the shot of the stranger standing on the edge of a cliff staring up the sky, the moon is very like sort of conspicuously and overtly hanging above him. The man in the moon is not just like a mother goose nursery rhyme thing.

It's also something that Tolkien literally had in the story. The man who was a character that exists. than the folk tales of the Shire Hobbits. And I just like that idea. Even if the man-in-mood doesn't exactly exist, and even if the stranger isn't the man-of-moon, wouldn't it be kind of cool if, like, this is what the Harfuss decide he is,

and this is how he becomes this, like, figure in their lore. Bilbo writes a song called The Man in the Moon stayed up too late. Bilbo Forever writing songs, honestly. What do you think of this sort of, like, Man-N-the-Moon connection? I'm into this. This is fun.

Yeah. And it fits with like the passing down the lore and the stories and the songs across time. Great one. Delightful. So you're fully in just to be clear, the stranger is Gandalf territory, right? A wizard at least. Okay. Yeah.

I'm still thinking that maybe they just never name him. And that he's just like Gandalfi. I don't know. Oh my God. And then he's just like forever Gandalfi but never named his Gandalfe. similar to the way that we saw this elf that was like very reminiscent of Glorffindel

but they didn't say like the elf Glorffendell, you know what I mean? I don't know. Let's talk about Halperin. God. I'm going to read this email we got from listener Paul who said that Charlie Vickers, I guess,

in an interview, the actor who plays Albran said that the Tolkien letters helped him greatly understand his character, which implies that he's not playing an original character, but someone that may have been described psychologically in Tolkien's letter. And Tolkien did describe Saren's state of mind during that time in a letter. Basically, Sauron was repentant. He wanted to stop doing evil,

but he also did not want to face the punishment of the valor's. So he fled and hid trying to start over until he fell back into his old habits. And what is Hallibrand trying to do here start over? What do you think about that email from Paul? Very interesting. Very interesting. I guess it could still connect to like, you know, are you the king in hiding and and waiting?

Not all the glitters is gold idea too. But yeah, one more, one more suspicious thing. There was just so much in this episode. I wrote down he's smithing, oh no, you know? It's like we got, I mean, it makes beautiful swords that the like head of the smithy is like, oh my God. I know. Everyone's just in awe at his skill.

We're getting, we have now had a. recurrence in language from him across episodes. We got another men like me line from him this week. And I'm just like actual men like you wouldn't say that. That's just a weird thing to say. I don't know, it's like very suspicious. I'm extremely suspicion of the fact that his wounds haven't healed at all. And to me that like, like if you, because he got in this like fight in the alley and I don't know how much time is supposed to have passed, but it feels like some amount of time is supposed to have past. And his wounds are like almost as fresh as ever. And I almost feel like that's sort of, if you were glamoring yourself to seem mortal and not seem supernatural, you would keep the cuts

and bruises on your face to like seem more mortal. That's me maybe all the way down the rabbit hole. I don't know. No, I like that. Didn't they say last episode that the ships were going to depart in 10 days? So I think, and then they delay perhaps further in this episode because there's all of the back and forth. So you know the newman. Orians have that good neosporin. So, like, what's going on? Oh, God. Maybe Halbrad, unlike the viewers of Rings of Powers, they gig, because it's not in the show

about the fact that these people live for a couple hundred years. And he's like, I got to, you know, I got to make sure they notice the cuts and bruises. So give it a little bit of time. Joe, he's also just in front of or looking at fire all the time in this episode. Like he's framed by, yeah. When he walks into the, like, war council. and it's just all those candles. They look like eyes.

Come on. All right. When he says to Galadryl, I'm sorry for your brother for all of it. Like it felt like an actual apology that he's making. I agree. And then the Adar question, which is something you raised a couple weeks ago, which was a really good one where it's like, how do we reconcile all of this with the idea that Adar and all these orcs are working for Sauron's like,

for Sauron's like for Sauron's south? But what if they aren't? What if he was deposed by Adar and the orcs? The thing that Hal Brown says to Galadriel in episode two is the way I see it, it wasn't the elves that chased me from my homeland. It was orcs. So what if Adar and the orcs kick sourn out of the Southlands? They're like, you guys lost.

You're not our king anymore. So he's like, okay, I'm going to go start a new life in Numenor. I do not want to go back. That's the last place I want to go back. I get kicked out of there. And then it's Galadriel. Who makes him go back? Fulfilling what Gil Gallad said in episode one

for the same wind that seeks to blow out of fire may also cause it to spread. Galadriel says there's no peace for you to be found here in Numenor. You have to come back with me. It's compelling. There's also a really great moment where when she says the evil I was fighting, the camera focus shifts from him being in soft focus

to him being crisp and clear right over her. shoulder directly in line with the evil I was fighting. Here's my only question. Yeah. I think we should all have plenty of questions about this theory. Yeah. And I will say last week, as you know, I was like, this is just, this is a lock. It's done. Take it off the board, Vegas. This week I have a little more doubt seeping in again. And part of that might be because he's a convincing, convincing, a fair friend in disguise.

I do find still, like, okay, the pouch. The pouch in this episode, there's the theater, perhaps, of just the way that he and he's interacting with Galadriel about that, find another head to crown,

that all would fit still. Toward the end, when he summoned, we don't know what choice he's going to make, and he puts it down and leaves, and then we get the shot, of his hand reaching for it again.

Like, who is that fake out for? No one's in the room. I feel like that's him deciding. Okay, I'll go. It's very like Cameron Fry and Ferris Bueller's Dayoff. We'll go, I'll go, I'll go, I'll go. I'll go. Like, he doesn't want to go back because the or-

Sorry, on stay-off. Yeah. Yeah, the orgs drove him out. But she's like, let's go back with an army. And he's like, okay, like, we'll use your army. Let's get rid of those orcs. And then I'll be king of the Southlands. And it'll be, it'll work out this time.

And I'll kick and twirl my sword in a way that no one has ever seen. That was amazing. We got a lot of emails. There's plenty of people who do not like this theory. And I hear you all. And I want to represent you in this. And a big question was like the Numenorian timeline because we know that Sauron basically let Farrazon capture him and drag him back.

to Numenor. And that's when sort of he starts to work. So like the question was, how can he be at Numenor so early? Well, like, we see him leaving. So he's going to leave and go to the Southlands.

Is he going to come back? That's the question. Or is he just the king of the Southlands? And this is all coincidental that he's constantly reathed in fire. I don't know. But I'm still very team

Hal Brannisar. Nasgul watch. Anything we got in this episode that felt very Nazgulian too? I just think that our candidates that we floated last week are starting to feel like really just strong contenders. Strong contenders.

You mentioned the Arien last week. I'm like, yeah, this is, boy. Kemen, very concerned. Very concerned about what awaits. Kevin. What's your plan, my guy. Yeah, yeah. Belendiel says this thing.

One day I hope you'll find something you'd be willing to sacrifice anything for. Now, on the one hand, that might be heavily foreshadowing what a Sealedor, the choice of Seleur makes in the end of all things. The other hand, it might be foreshadowing something that Volondale feels like he needs to sacrifice anything for. Yeah, absolutely. I could see that.

That's compelling to me. I think also we got to have Theo in the mix here. Oh, yeah. Have to keep Theo. Top of the list here. Possible number one draft pick for this cruel fate. given that that tie already

to the blade you know why not go from a power to another another blade of evil a power all right

that has been your episode 5 NASGool Watch really really proud of us great work everyone's a suspect we're going to

know into our last ring now ring three as my voice is failing me the forbidden pool this is a book reader spoiler section

get out you don't want to know actually again I don't really You know, everything to put in here. Mithril we know is what they used to make at least one of the rings of power. Right. Nenya.

Yes. Nenya. Yeah. So that's worrying. So, like, is this whole story, whether or not it's true, is this whole story to show to us what the elves are desperate for help with? You know, because, like, we're setting up all these vulnerabilities. the Numenorians and their you know,

arrogance against the gods or whatever, the Southlanders and their taste for fascism, the, you know, the dwarves and their mithril and guarding their culture, like what are the L's vulnerable to? And if it's this idea that

their dire existence is about to be snuffed out and maybe Sauron can like swoop in and say, hey man, you want to bathe all the elves and Mithril, why don't you put them into these rings and that will do it? Like, I don't know, man.

I don't know. I really, there's got to be some major payoff for this mithril gambit. I agree. So like, if we think about the forge and the fact that we seem to be moving toward now based on this update, collecting the Mithril and putting it in the forge, doing something in the forge. And then we think back to Kellebrin-Bor's line from the premiere about, how he wanted to, quote, grow beyond petty works of jewelcraft and devise something of real power.

Now, rings are jewelcraft, certainly. But then you, okay, so if we think about the relationship, that caliber more forging the elven rings, we know that to be true from the text, but also we know that he was a rarity in not trusting and not being duped in full by Sauron the way that so many others were. So I'm trying to...

But he was duped at first. This brings me to the other thing I want to talk about, which is Gil Gallad. Because Gilgallid, according to the text, was never duped. And Galadryl, according to the text, was never duped. So, like, are we seeing a major update to that

in that, okay, they were duped for a little bit of time, but they caught on to him earlier than anyone else. Gilgallad is a really interesting figure because, like, he is nothing but like noble and shining and pure and upright and all this stuff

which makes for not a very interesting character to follow. So my question is, are we seeing him do something here that we will see him arc away from, which would make him a more interesting character? Similar to what we talked about with Elendiel where a bunch of people are like, a bunch of book readers were saying,

why would Alendiel ever be anything but overtly, elf, faithful? well because it makes a more interesting arc for him to be trying to fit in with the, you know, the Kingsmen, the people who are anti-elf, basically put these characters on an arc. Make Galadriel messy and wrong and like bullheaded and all this sort of stuff to put her on an arc towards being right. Because if Galadryl shows up and Gilgallad shows up and they're always right about Sauron, then that's not interesting. So what lesson do they have to learn in all of this? always want a good arc, a strong arc, an arc that involves putting me thrill in a forge

and crafting a ring of power. I mean, I did want to ask you, like, we're through five of the eight episodes. It's only an eight episode season. Do you think the titular rings of power are going to enter the story in a meaningful way in season one, or will it just be a tease at the very end,

or not even a tease at the very end of season one? I think something that Patrick and J.D. said about season one was that they really wanted to be the season where they established the world and the characters and the cultures and what's at stake and what could be lost and all this sort of stuff but not really get into the meat of the plot until I think season two like this is all about who what where when why but like in terms of the major things that we know have to happen which are you know the forging of the rings the formation I mean we might get the beginning formation of Mordor, but like the formation of the

forging the rings, the fall of Numenor, the last alliance of elves and men, like that's all to come. And here we're just trying to like grok who anyone is and what their vulnerabilities are and what their various cultures need to them. I think that's where we are. Yeah. I think that the Calibrombor then studying

me through and testing what it could do and what sort of power it can harness or can be harnessed from it is a way to like point toward that eventuality. without actually doing any of it in this season. Yeah. I think that's right. Sounds right to me.

Are anything else you want to say about this wonderful episode of television? I don't think so. I've said give it to me raw like 20 times already. We sang, we cried. What more do we need? You're a hero and a trooper for two hours of piping hot content despite needing to soak your throat in the stranger's healing ice-werex Water. Great to be here with you as always. What a treat. What a joy for me. Can't wait to go do

exactly that with these strangers ice water and or slather some beeswax on it, whatever. Or maybe I'll have some of that mushroom stew that Malva might be making. Sounds good to me. That's it for the Ring or Verse, Rings of Power, episode five. Only three more episodes to go, Mallory. I'm pretty sad about that. As you mentioned, we'll be back with Talk to Thrones on Sunday. Hopefully my voice will have recovered by then. We'll be back with more deep dives and House of the Dragon on Tuesday and or talk on Wednesday.

She'll talk on Thursday. What more could you possibly ask for? Follow the Ring or Verse. Do all of that good stuff. Thanks as always to our junior rainbow for his production version on this. And the heroic Carlos Chirovoga, who has no doubt how to edit out. 20 different cough breaks from me. So thanks to you all and we'll see you soon.

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