House of R - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 7 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 7, 2022

Joanna and Mal are back in Middle-earth to talk about the penultimate episode in Season 1 of 'The Rings of Power.’ They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (7:43). Then, they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details and character moments in every storyline (11:59). Later, they discuss their theories about what's in store for the finale (2:02:22). Finally, they take a dip in the Forbidden Pool and analyze Prince Durin, looking ahead to what potential book spoilers might mean for his character arc (2:11:18). If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail]. Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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See terms at Fandul.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. It will be all right. It is sick. Brandyfoot. Give us a moment to weep. Weep in me. Is that all you think we have left in us? We're hardfoots. We don't slay dragons. Not much for digging jewels. But there's one thing we can do, I want, better than any creature in all Middle Earth. We stay true to each other, no matter how the path winds or how steep it gets.

We face it with our hearts. even bigger in our feet. And we just keep walking. Your Nexus, I just, sorry, I just got transported by that little speech. This, though, is your Nexus podcast. Feed for all things. Fandom, I'm Joanna Robinson joining me today, putting one foot in front of the other. At the end of a week with me, it's Mallory Rubin.

Hi, Mallory. Joanna, what's the good of living if we aren't living good? Wow. I'm a little quote right at the top. I'm so thrilled to be here. That's a better way to start. We are here to talk about Rings of Power, Episode 7. The eye. I don't know why I said it that way. I just decided to. Channel when you're in a Waldrick. Yeah, but it's just like, The Eye.

Have you heard of it, Lord? The end of the eye. You've heard of the eye. Have you earned of Amazon Prime? Before we get into Waldrig Malva, all the rest just to let you know

we got an email actually just this morning from someone being like how will I get to still listen to Mallory and Joanna once rings of power and House of the Dragon are through

folks, welcome to the ringerverse we just keep going okay so programming reminders Oh, boy. Mallory and I, yes. We do Rings of Power on Friday. We do Talk the Thrones about House of the Dragon on Sunday.

We'll be doing that with Chris Ryan. We do a deep dive on House of the Dragon on Tuesday. The Midnight Boys, Poo-Pew! Are doing Andor. Our beloved pal, Ben Lindbergh is doing She-Hulk. But when Rings of Power is done, Mallory and are going to be hopping over to do some and-or coverage ourselves. And then there's just like a lot of other stuff. coming up, Wakanda Forever, Willow ever heard of it.

Like, there's just going to be all kinds of stuff this fall and winter that we'll be covering. So just stay subscribed to the ringerverse when rings of power and house the dragon are done. And then you won't have to miss us because guess what? We'll be here. Right here. Right here. Staying true. I'm not sure, however, that the email Hobbes and Dragons at gmail.com will still be going, but it might. We don't know. Mallory, other than subscribe to the podcast, which we always hope people will do, how else can they stay informed about what you and I will be talking for hours on end about every week? Oh, boy, you know, in addition to following the pod on Spotify or wherever you

get your podcast, you can follow the ring reverse across our myriad social feeds. We're everywhere. The ringer, the social, just the real, the Baltimore accent came out in Full. In full force right there. Boy. Okay. What a season for the O's. It's, boy, a special one that I'll think about finally for a long time. The Ringerverse is everywhere, Joe. We are on TikTok. And we are on Twitter. And we are on Instagram. If you're into IG Reels, you can find plenty of them on the Ringervverse Instagram handle. We're all over the place. So find us on the social platform of your choosing. And Joanna mentioned that.

email address, send us your musings at hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Speaking of, I just want to wish Connor luck on the Chicago Marathon. Connor emailed us to let us know that they're running the Chicago Marathon and that I guess our weekly pod output will just be able to sustain them through the whole race. So good luck to that. I hope this is the amp up music that you need to get you going. Look, Connor, a marathon.

I could quite literally never. I would quite literally never, but I really support Connor and all in all their numbers. I can barely make it to the mailbox. Last one at least. Yeah. Spoiler warning. Guess what? Ring 3 is back this week.

Okay. So here's what we do, right? Okay. On rings of power. Power. Power. We're separating our spoilers out. We're separating our spoilers out.

in three ways. First ring, ring one. That's what's talking about the show and also talking about it in the way that people who rewatch the Peter Jackson films every year and have read the books. We'll talk about the show. So we know things. Like, I'm just going to drop it right here. I just have full Tyrion Lannister.

I drink and I know things. And I respect it. I'm going full Tywin Lannister. I respect that. I'm just going to say right here. This is Ring 1 content. Sealedor, not dead. So, you know, that's the kind of stuff you can find in Ring 1. I'm just saying, just saying some people might not. We do. We're going to talk about it. Ring 2, that's like speculation city, right? That's when we're using our book knowledge to guess about the identities of various people or come up with some theories or maybe wonder where Galadriel's husband is, like blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. That's ring two.

Ring three, I think what Ring three has turned into is sort of a little deeper dive on a character that's in the show. That's sort of like what's been cropping up there. So we're going to talk about Duren, I think a bit more in Ring three and just sort of what we can expect, what we feel like they might be setting up and how that aligns with how everything plays out in the book. So that's it. You've been more. I wanted to ask you on the Duren front. Yeah.

Because we have more than one Duren. How do you feel about me going with. Papa D or Big D and Little D as shorthand. What do you think? I like Big D and Little D. I deeply hate it. What about what about Junior? Junior for the younger one.

A little Indiana Jones, little chunk pottery. No. All right. Let's start here with our long expected party, our opening snapshot. So this episode, as we mentioned, is called The I. Written by Jason Cahill, directed by Charlotte Brandstrom. Kale is known mostly for Sopranos and Fringe episodes that he's done. Two of my favorite shows of all time.

We've never talked about fringe, but I really couldn't have left that. Hit me up about Peter and Olivia literally any time. And then Charlotte Branson has done, has been working in this industry for a long time, but has done like episodes of Outlander and The Witcher, so you can sort of see how some of these incredible visuals that we got in this episode might be right up her alley. So let's just start with this question. Mallory Rubin, did you enjoy this episode of television?

Loved it. Absolutely loved it. Oh, boy. I had a great time, you know, coming off my least favorite episode of the season. And I think the episode before that, episode five had been my favorite. And I'm kind of in a race to the finish tie right now between five and seven for which is my favorite of the season. so far. They're definitely at the top of the list. Though I, you know, we'll see. Reserve the right to change my personal ranking at any point after a complete rewatch and after

we see how the season concludes. But this episode had really everything that I've come to love and look for in a Rings of Power episode. First of all, that character mix that we really cherish was back in full. Just miss spending time with the Harfuts, miss spending time with Elrond and Duran and Disa and, you know, big D. too. So we got it all. We got it all. It's not. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen. And this episode made me laugh.

Shout out the beard lice exchange. This episode made me absolutely weep like a child sitting alone in a dark room and a bathrobe watching my screen or texting you. Brought to tears multiple times. particularly by Elrond and Little D. I'm going to let Little D pass only because adding the bathrobe element, because I knew you were alone in a dark room texting me, but I didn't know you were in your bathroom. I recently got a lovely new bathrobe.

And I have to say, for the first time of my life, for the first time of my life at 36, I've discovered a totally new source of magic and joy. And I don't know what took me so long. frankly. It's great. It's great. This episode made me think Joe. It had really thought-provoking, deeply thematically rich plot threads.

It just had everything. It was the exact kind of blend that I've come to love about the show. How about you? Yeah. This is my favorite episode. I think we were maybe someone in the minority of not loving last week's episode. And that's not surprising to me because I often don't love a battle episode as much as other people do, but that's okay because the aftermath of a battle episode is usually something

I really love. And this just opens with incredible visuals, some of which we had seen in the trailer, like the Galadriel covered in ash, that red light. But to just see it sustained, especially coming off a week of House of the Dragon, where everyone was talking about how dark everything was, I was like, oh, look, the whole land is covered in smoke and ash, and I can still see everything perfectly. So I thought this is a beautiful episode. And then, yeah, I was just thrilled to have Duren and Disa and other Duren and Elron and the Harfoots back in the mix here. I thought it was a great balance of everything. So let's get into it. Let's start with, and I also wept alone in a room, but I wasn't wearing a bathroom, but I was texting you.

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business, Fast, Reliable Internet. means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 U.S.-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer, unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream

drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Sweetgreen. The day doesn't Ask for permission. Lunch window? Gone before you saw it coming. You deserve a break that actually satisfies. Sweet Green's new wraps have got you. Real ingredients? Zero shortcuts. Everything you love in one hand. Think green goddess chicken. Garlic aoli. Crumbled bacon. Corn salsa. 40 grams of protein. Made to keep up with whatever comes next. New sweet green wraps hit different. Order now at order.com. Helms Deep. This is our deep dive into episode seven. We're going to go character beat by character beat, essentially, as we've done in the past. So we're just going to do the harfits all the way through, starting with poppy singing a little snailing song that opens the episode.

We get the full song like in three parts throughout the episode with just like one line that I couldn't hear over a babbling brook. But, Carlos, will you play as the money verse of this song, please? of the frogfish turned her into the snare. Oh, vulgar book, he caught her, so juicy and so sweet. They say his little daughter, he could not help her. All right, this is, okay, first of all, Mallory and I both last their shit, of course, at the juicy and so sweet. Not only hearing so juicy and so sweet, but hearing that while somebody is splashing and splashing and splashing, in an open pool of water?

I mean, are we sure that Poppy is not Smeagle? Deception, masks, big part of Tolkien lore. Do we need to move the Poppy as Smeagel theory into ring two? Oh, God. I love this. I mean, this is another banger from, from, I assume, J.D. wrote these lyrics as well. Jady wrote the lyrics to Wondering Day.

Bulger Buck is a great name because it's like, like all the Harfoot names. It's like a combination of Hobbit names that we've heard before, of course. Good old Fatty Bulger was a key figure in Lord of the Rings. And then like we've heard, you know, Brandy Foot, Brandy Buck is I think so. And I love that this is such a fun little cheersome song. But the plot of the song is some guy went a snailing, left his babe on the bank, babe got turned to his snail, he caught the babe and then ate his daughter. So perfect combo of sweetness and yikes. It's Tolkien, baby. It's tough. It's tough. Do you think that, you know,

we're in October already nearing not only the holiday season, but Spotify Rapt season. Do you think that any of Poppy's jams will be baking it into the top five of your Rapped? I honestly think Wondering Day will be in my top five. I've listened to it so many times. We can't say what because of embargoes, by the way, but there is, like, by the time you listen to this, there will probably be rings of power musical news that will have broken that we can't talk about, but I'm very excited about that one. I haven't heard it yet.

That might make my Spotify rap for sure. So we'll talk about that more next week when we're allowed to talk about it. We got this Hobbiton dragons at gmail.com We got this email from Brian that I really loved about the lyrics

of Wandering Day because we actually got a bunch of emails asking us to break down the lyrics of Wandering Day and I did not feel very qualified to do so but Brian has this

really great theory that the lyrics are an homage to Saman Frodo's journey in Lord of the Rings. Let's give some examples. The sun is falling fast. The third,

The sun is fast falling beneath trees of stone is how the song starts. And he says that reminds me of the fellowship going through Kazadun in the dark. The light in the tower no longer my home. Brian Rice, I can't imagine the Harfut's building or living in towers. So this line especially stands out. It makes me think of Minis Morgul and Siroth Ungo being built by the men of Gondor, but taken over by Sauron and Sam and Frodo going past them to get to Mordor.

Here's the next line. This is the one that really sold me on Brian Sari. Past eyes of pale fire. Brian says this is definitely Shilab. There's a sentence towards the end of two towers that seems directly taken from, which goes, quote, the radiance of the starglass is broken and thrown back from their thousand facets, but behind the glitter, a pale, deadly fire began steadily to glow within a flame kindled in some deep pit of evil thought. So shout out Shilab and her terrible eyes.

Thousand eyes and one. And then black sand for my bed is the next lyric, which Brian says that makes me think of sneaking through the volcanic landscape around Mount Doom. And then no rest or comfort, no comfort but song evokes the vibes of Sam forlorn and Zarath Ungol that he had lost Frodo. So, Mal, how do you feel about this interpretation of Wandering Day? Absolutely love it. I had thought with the light in the tower lyric about Weathertop as well previously. in part because I'm always thinking about weathertop and stewed tomatoes. But yeah, I think you could definitely map the lyrics onto that journey, which obviously

this is the singing of the song is set well before Sam and Frodo's journey in the story, but like as a gift to us as fans, that's a beautiful thing. I also think, Joe, that we can probably map some of the lyrics onto our experience, you know? I have no rest nor comfort, no comfort but pod. What do you think? Yeah. What are the eyes of pale fire in this context? That's a great question.

I have a lot of questions about that. Anyway, if you have other interpretations of Wandering Day, please feel free. Hobbs and Dragons at gmail.com, but I love that interpretation from Brian. Are wandering Harfoots with Poppy just singing about snailing? They smell one of my favorite smells. barbecue on the wing on the wind.

I feel like I'm in Austin, Texas. There's a, there's some ribs on the open flame. Mallory, did you think, oh, this is going to be fine? Or did you think, uh, uh-oh, we saw a volcano erupt last week? So simultaneously, I thought, uh-oh, we saw Mount Doom erupt last week and they are walking into before door, no more door. Mordor, but then I thought, what if someone's making a smore door in Mordor? You know? Why not?

Why not? If you've got fire everywhere, break out some chocolates, some marshmallows, some graham crackers, make the land work for you. What's wrong with your brain? I love you so much. I love a campfire. Smordor no more door. I love the smell of a campfire.

One of my favorite bites of food that I've ever had was at a wonderful restaurant in L.A. called ink, where you could get these charcoal potatoes and they just taste like a campfire and it's great. So it also just made me hungry, even though I knew that our beloved Harfoots were marching toward doom. We contain multitudes. Please some ice cream shop make us a smordor no more door flavor. I so appreciate it. Saddak talks about, but it's not a campfire. It's, you know, little chunks of volcano that have come and crushed a very crouched. A very crowsy, but it's a very crucial it would seem food stop on the on the harfoot tour yeah the gross and saddak says this really interesting thing where he says mountains that uh talks about mountains that can spitfire

rock that go to sleep for hundreds of years only to wake in again when the new evil is rising my thought was that this was a way for the show to sort of yada yada yada yada smooth over the fact that mount doom erupting in last week's episode kind of contradicts the established lore that morgoth like was chilling with Mount Doom created Mount Doom in the first age. So maybe the idea is Morgoth created it. It went to sleep. Now a new evil is rising. Sadok is looking very pointedly at our six-pack stranger.

But, you know, some new evil is rising. So the volcano went off again. Yeah. And I kind of like that because this idea of cycles and repeating occurrences across time and across character sets ties. ties in more broadly to something else that we'll be discussing a lot today, which is one of our recurring talking points across these episodes, fate, destiny, when you put your faith in something that is maybe outside of your ability to shape and then how you reconcile that with your

deeply rooted desire to make decisions that inform your own fate. So something also there just about, and this began something that was another through line of the episode, like the connection between the people who inhabit the land and the land itself has obviously been something we've talked about as central and elemental to Tolkien's world. But specifically in this episode, fire and rock as these elements that touch multiple storylines and plot lines. The Balrog, of course, everything that Papa Dee says to Little D about their creation, what we're hearing from Sadok here, et cetera. I really liked that as this. unifying thread across character sets in time.

Speaking of cycles and loops and all this sort of stuff, I just noticed this for the first time. I'm sure he's been wearing it this whole time, but Sattuck has like a ring on a chain around his neck. Is this something you would notice before? Or did you notice it? It stood out in this episode, like in a very clear and plain way. Like our eye was meant to settle on it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we know that he lost his partner. So perhaps it's it's it's that that ring, his wedding ring, carrying it with him, you know, resting against his heart as he continues the migration and continues the journey and remains true in that way. Perhaps there's something else to it. I was just like, I can't believe I haven't noticed that this dude is just wearing a ring on a chain this whole time.

Something that we should pay attention to maybe. Um, static pivots pretty swiftly from implying that the stranger is the evil that has caused a volcano to erupt to, uh, you want to use those healing hands of yours to help heal the grove for us here. Not the grove in L.A., but a grove where apples grow. And the stranger like a rondeer before him, like Tolkien, our favorite tree guy, is very upset about the state of that. this black and in charred tree. Love that our babe, our favorite, Malva says,

Saddock, trees don't talk. And then he says, some do. He's like, let's sit down and watch two towers. Two towers. Spend some time with the end. Don't be so hasty, Malva. So I love that Saddak knows

so much, which is really great news for the fact that he's joined the little fellowship that breaks out from this group here. The fact that they have someone who knows, who's like deep in the lore knows way more about the lore than we do. I love that like not only as a little Easter egg for us though, but as one more reminder of this connection to the land

and then the theme of environmentalism and like an understanding of how the resources, the natural resources around you are not just there for you to use to your, the extent of your heart's liking, but that these are living things as well. And like that's one of the things that that's been fun for us to track that distinction between the characters who would seek to bend these elements to their will and use them to fuel and achieve whatever desire, fowler, otherwise they might be pursuing.

And the characters like the hardfuts who really live not only off of, but as one with the land. And so, like, that was really cool, but also then this through line, this was something that you highlighted in a lovely way last week, like healing. in the story and gardens in the story and all of that is very present here with the stranger and the healing of the tree but then also across the episode we have all of like the stranger in the grove the mithril and the leaf

the healers caring for the injured Southlanders and Newmanorians. Yeah. Very present in episode seven here. When he literally heals the garden I was like well, tick, baby. New life and defiance of death.

It's that idea. from last week, very present here. He uses Quenia, one of the elvish languages, to try to renew the tree and the grove here. And as we mentioned, many times, we do not have close captioning on the screenage that we get. So cut to me with the Quina to English dictionary, trying to sound out some words and figure out what he says here.

It's incredible work by you. I stand an absolute icon. This is amazing. I am not fluent in Quentin. but this is this is the best I can do. So he says enviniatta is one thing he says, which means healed or renewed. This is one of Aragorn's titles. Aragorn says, Verily in the high tongue of old, I am Elisar, the Elfstone, and Enviniatar, the Renewer.

So renew. It's one thing that he says. Lotana is another thing he says. Lote is the what means flower in Cuenia. We've talked about Nimloth, the tree, so that like ending of the end. Nimloth, Lote, flower. And then Anna means like give. So give flotana, like give flower.

Create a flower, right? And then O Quetta, O means and Quetta just means renew and refresh. So renew, give flower, and renew and refresh. I was like, that sounds like all things that he would say when he was urging a tree to grow. So I think that that's what's going on here. If I miss something, you know where to find this. But does this all go, I mean, as is all things stranger and healing, does this go according to Planned Mallory or what happens here? There is some quick shifting from the collective embrace of this healing pursuit into somonymous, intense and elevated chanting and a shift in tone, and then the shattering and collapsing of a branch on top of our beloved Harfoots.

The fear that in particular, you know, you noted this shift from Satic and Co. from really fearing the big fella into embracing what this magic might afford them. And, you know, within that, Norie is experiencing the inverse. Like, Nori was the advocate at the beginning. Why can't we open our minds to the wonders of the world and to how outsiders might help us see and explore those things? And the fear, you know, we saw it. after the healing pool, that real palpable fear that Nori experienced after that direct connection and exposure to the force of the magic. And to see Nori weaving in and out of that feeling across this episode just felt very true to me.

Like to be purely unabashedly okay with everything that you'd be witnessing would defy belief. but that kernel of doubt setting in and then working in tandem with this still very present belief and desire to explore and to support each other and it's not an isolation because it's something that the stranger is experiencing himself

and I think that that's equally important. Doubt was a central theme in this episode with Galadriel, with Elendial, with Doran, etc. Like all these characters with Nori doubting whether the decisions, not only whether the decisions that they've made are right, but whether they have actively invited some sort of harm to befall them and the people that they care about. And so the way that the stranger here is so clearly unsure of his own strength and his own power, not only how to wield it, but what the extent of it might be and what it might mean for the people around him.

and you like contrast in very close quarter something like the just pure, the look of pure longing and joy on his face when Saddak gives him the star map. Not only because that's an act of kindness and acceptance, but also because it is a connection to something familiar. And his own doubt, exactly. Like his own doubt is centered in this, in the lack of understanding of something that is central to who he is and how other people see him. Like that's a very, very, very scary thing. sitting side by side with the doubt of this episode is this idea of friendship and fellowship, which we've been talking about throughout. But like what I love about this sequence with Norie and Stranger, both their encounter

from the previous episode and this one is that friendship and fellowship shouldn't necessarily be obvious or easy. You know what I mean? So you think about there's a lot of examples in Lord of the Rings, but like the best, the best one I think is Gallum and like Frodo being like, Sam being like, we should not take this guy. And Frodo, having learned the lessons from Genoff, is like, let's take, you know, and again and again, Gallum is imperiling them. And again and again, Frodo is like, this person needs to come with us. And so that's sort of like, it shouldn't be easy and obvious, the friendship and

fellowship that we see in these stories. And I think it's really, Satik is really interesting because he just keeps swinging back and forth in this episode. Shout out to Lenny Henry for like selling me on every decision, but like he gives a stranger a star map. But it's very much like, here's your hat, what's your hurry? He's just sort of like, here's the star map, bye. Like, I just accused you of maybe being the evil that's set off a volcano. Then I asked you to heal the grow for us. When that did not go well, I am asking you now kindly to please leave.

And he mentions Greenwood the Great as a place for the stranger to go, which is another name for Merkwood. forest, before it was Merkwood, it had the name Greenwood. And if you don't remember what the Merckwood Forest is, let me just say, this forest has everything. What else? Spiders, Nazgle, orcs, Woodman, men that turn into bears. This is a huge location for the Hobbit, Merckwood. But it doesn't become Merkwood until the Necromancer, Whoisar, moves in there. So before that, It's just, you know, like a nicer foresty kind of place. I don't know. The spiders might already be there, but I don't think so.

So, will, you know, the adventure seems to be taking us into Mark Wood, called Greenwood the Great. Will we encounter wood elves there? Will we encounter men who turn into bears there? Like, Leapace isn't there yet, but, you know, there's some other delights. Yeah, there's some other delights that might. Oh, waitos there. I liked Tudjo with the oscillating of whether to trust and encourage or fear the stranger. Like, arriving at this grove, this place that they have been marching toward, not only because of the bounty and the plenty and the sustenance that it provides, but also because of the safety, it's a part of that migration, a part of that wheel, a trusted refuge.

when they see that volcanic rock, I would assume, because for me as a viewer, this was the case, I would assume it was the case for them as characters too. Like, they're going to think of that, the meteor, the meteor man again, there's like a visual similarity to this incursion and scorched earth

and the settling in of the ash and the char, this cover of darkness, masking this fruit of life beneath. not only connects to this larger theme of the story. When can you tell the difference between darkness and light and can you push through the darkness to reach that light and that goodness? But also just as it would be a natural thing if it pushed these characters back to that moment of fear.

And I think anytime that we see someone pluck an apple off a tree or give an apple to someone, we have to, of course, think of Stephanie Meyer's seminal work, Twilight. No, I'm just kidding, but that is the cover of Twilight. Oh, my God. A lot of biblical identical energetic energy, energy and imagery in this sequence here. And Nori feeling completely crushed after all of her proclamations of her destiny. So that tells Goldie, I'm just a harfoot, it's all I'll ever be.

You know, and her mom tells her go to bed. And then she looks up at the moon, which is just like, I, I, I still don't feel like we've talked about this a little bit in ring two. I still don't feel like I have a solid grasp on what the moon has to do with all of this. A lot of moon gazing in this episode. Yeah. A lot. Yeah.

Interesting. But in the morning, Lori wakes up. Poppy is singing more of the delightful snealing song in between juicy, sweet bites of apple. and we find out that the stranger, maybe they set the stranger away a little perfunctorily because the grove is in bloom. Yeah. Malva's going to make applesauce.

Yeah. I prefer apple sausage. I prefer apple sausage, apple sauce, but. A true why not both situation for me. Delicious. Joe, do you have a favorite apple? What's your favorite apple? Oh, easy.

This is the easiest question you've ever. asked me. This is like one of my oldest fondest loves a tart, crisp, sour, graysmith apple. Oh my God. The sourer, the better. Awful. Yeah. Awful. Delicious. Delicious. Delicious. What do you, are you like a do you like a mushy, mealy red delicious? Like, where are you? No. I mean, I'd like to think that you have more faith than me here, but it's just like you, you and King. Out there. And Carlos, our producer, backs me on the Granny Smith apple. I like a Granny Smith apple as an ingredient.

Actually, Adam uses Granny Smith to make his homemade apple sauce at Thanksgiving, and it's delicious. Maybe in a pie. But if I'm just going to have an apple, which I do routinely, number one, pink lady, can't beat it. That has that tartness, too, but not in an overpowering at times offensive way. And number two, honey crisp. Delicious.

I love apples. Picking an apple from an apple orchard was one of my favorite things to do in college in central New York. You go to the apple orchard on a crisp fall day and then you get a dozen apple cider donuts. Wonderful. I, because I'm a, I have been apple picking. I have experienced this autumnal joy myself. My grandpa, isn't everyone excited that we're talking about rings of power? My grandpa taught me how my grandpa who also loved Granny Smith apples, taught me how to carve apples.

Like just take a pairing knife and sit down and just like carve off slices for yourself. Like Ramsey Bowl. Just you and Ramsey Bowled. My grandpa, my dearly beloved departed grandfather and me. But also to eat Granny Smith slices with peanut butter. Like that's a really good combo. I love to dip an apple and peanut butter. Sweet.

I don't like hot fruit or pies. We've talked about this. This is also a dismaying take. Applesauce. Applesauce is off the menu for me. Oh my God. Meets back on the menu. Applesauce.

What joy in life can match a fresh pipe and hot fruit pie or a fruit cobbler with a nice crumbly top? I don't know. Maybe one day if I get to like hold my own child in my arms or something, I'll know a love that pure. But right now it's like my love for Halo and my love for a delicious fruit pie. I was going to say, what would Halo say to your little advice here? He's number one always. Okay, good. All right. Poppy sees something. I thought she saw something in the water. She says something in the bank. She's out of footprint. But when she looked down in the water, I was like, again, very smeggely, two smeggle moments, right? Seeing the ring of power in the water for the first time, that's a moment. But then also it made me think of the dead marshes and all the like tricksy lights and the candle. of the corpses and don't look down in the water sort of thing. But what I love of this is Poppy sees his footprint on the shore, a largeish footprint.

This is not a Harfoot footprint, I guess. And she's just gone. I loved that, like, the camera pans down and then whips back up and it's just Bucket City, no Poppy, just speaks to, like, how quickly the Harfits can just completely disappear themselves. And then with the mention of Merkwood, did the bucket going, like, down the falls make you think of Bilbo and the dwarves and the barrels. Like, that's what it made me think about. Absolutely.

Yeah. And in part just because I've always had so many questions about that particular escape strategy and some of the tactics. Doesn't seem safe. Doesn't seem safe to me. It's not what I would go for. Oh, God. But the cultists are here and the soundtrack would like us to know that this is a very scary

thing. Okay. It's working. Because this is like legitimately unsettling. Were you spooked by this? I was. I was so scared. The way that the camera shoots up at them from the Harfoot POV, when they snatched, like, I don't know, an acorn.

I don't know what they snatched off Norie's head, but it's scared the shit out of me. It's like, what are they going to do with that? It's never good when a magical being plucks one of your hairs and or the egg corn that you wear on your hair adorn. That's only going to lead to something tragic. Very bad. But so they see the sign of growth. They are headed off towards something. I think we're, I have trouble, as you may have remembered from our map lesson before,

I'm not great with geography. But I feel like what we're supposed to believe is they point in a direction and are headed off where the stranger went. And then Norie's like, no, no, he went that away. So Norie endangers everyone to point the cultists in the opposite direction of the stranger. And guess what? It doesn't go well, does it, Mallory Rubin? Instead of the cultists immediately saying, cool, thanks for the tip.

Right. I mean, first of all. Which is what any polite cultist would do, I think. You think Poppy vanished quickly? The cultists are instantly, it's almost like we could apparate. And maybe they can. I mean, they're instantly in a different place.

It's very unsettling. It's scary. Our beloved Papa Brandyfoot Largo comes over. Largo. With a torch engulfed in flame, as torches are, absorbs his fire in like these blackened fingertips, and then deploys with a quiet breath, a plume of embers and smoke that then instantly lights on fire

all of the carts in this caravan. My first thought, I was like, are there people in those cars? Like, I thought that they maybe just genocided the Harfoots. That does not seem to be the case. It seems to just be like the produce and their entire way of life and all their earthly belongings, which is bad enough. But I was like, at first I was like, oh my God. And the thing about these cultists who, you know, are very quiet and mysterious.

I mean, like, this is what the show is giving us is the Nazgul essentially, right? Like these aren't as ghoul, but like the way, you know, they're dressed in white. It's the opposite of the black riders. So like that. The specter pursuing you. The silent, absolutely terrifying. The soundtrack is going to tell you to be very scared, very, very scary people. I loved it.

I think it was great. Really, really terrifying. Malva's very freaked out. Poor Saddick is crying. Yeah. Everybody's very, everybody's very. very shaken by this the next morning. Norrie is frozen still with regret.

But not everybody. Not everybody, Joe. No, it's a big episode for dads because Largo's like, get up. And we already heard this little speech from Largo. It opened the episode. I loved it. I thought it was great. But what I loved even more was Sadduk saying,

Pettysake, Brandy Fitt, give us a moment to weep, which is definitely a boring. year. Give them a moment for pity's sake. Absolutely. You know? I mean, he's talking about rabbits. So.

Yeah. Largo's like, this hill is going to be swarming with orcs. No, but. Not only is he talking about Hattis. He's talking about Habbas. After, of course, Gandalf falls to the Balrog. So there's also that connection to fire taking something that you love and this like, this, this feeling of safety and refuge away from you.

That was a really fun call back to the films. I liked that a lot. And these are just like the really fun, great little subtle Easter eggs that they're slipping in here that, like, you don't have to know that it's a reference to that. But, you know, I did do the Leo pointing meme when that happened. Anyway. Okay. So Norie has had a change of heart, right? Okay. Her dad gives, she fucked this up. She fucked that up. She fucked that up. She fucked all these things up. She's sitting there very like, what the hell am I going to do? Her dad gives her this rousing speech. And then she's like, I'm going to go. help my friend. That she says, my friend. The other option would have been to say when you say we stay true to each other, what about the people who died from the bees who we just laugh at every year? But instead... Right. And Poppy says we left enough folk behind. We're not leaving him. Like, Poppy's like my entire family, I guess, who died a landslide. Like, our whole way of life is

pretty garbage. So maybe we should do this a little differently this time. Malva, our babe, our best friend Malva, just that a trail finder should go with them and looks pointedly at Saddock, who I guess is in the like the Strider position, right? Strider is the trailfinder arranger for the fellowship. Fun fact, did you know that for a very long time in many drafts, Strider was not the lost king of Gondor. Strider was called Trotter, first of all, very bad, and was also a hobbit.

A hobbit named Trotter became Vigo Mortensen named Strider. Boy. This is why we workshop our drafts, you know? This is why we keep working. Frodo's name was Bingo, right? Instead of Frodo Baggins, it was Bingo Baggins. Imagine Bingo Buggins and Trotter going to Mordor. So yeah, revise, revise, revise.

I got to say, Joe, the Malva showing in this episode, a thrill for us. And absolutely, I mean, first of all, that line that we already talked about, what's the good of living static if we aren't living good? Just an all-timer. True wisdom here inside of an episode of television in the streaming wars era, loved it. We bought that Malva stock early. We held on to it.

We felt so vindicated in our investment in Malva. Put us in industry season three. Okay. because we know a good investment when we see one. Is that how stocks work? I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea.

So it's like a little, but it's like a little fellowships. Four Harfoots like four hobbits, right? Like a little fellowship going off into Merckwood, essentially, right? And what I love, it's a very unexpected, like Poppy and Nori breaking off and doing their little adventure. I could have called that anytime any of us could. We're just like, okay, our Sam and Frodo.

Sure. Yeah. sat up going with them. Surprising and really fun to me. Goldie going with them. I'm thrilled. I love it. This was really great.

Given how the Goldie, given how the Goldie, there's so much love and affection and this nurturing spirit inside of this family and this larger community, but the real challenge to Nori's desire in earlier episodes, you know, in response to that,

like haven't you ever wonder what else is out there, impulse and desire, the real challenge consistently came from Goldie. And so for Norrie's mother to be the one to say, I will join you, not only does that really fuel the spirit of fellowship that's present in this episode and so central to this, this tale in this universe, I think it also connects to this other idea we're going to talk about a lot today, this idea of faith and hope, because it's a rekindling for Norriek, who needed to restore her faith, who had had it shaken. And the fact that, like, you could do that on your own is empowering, certainly.

But the real heart of that comes from how other people helping you find that faith and you helping other people discover it in the first place. And I just think that that's like a really, really lovely thing. It's a, it's a great showing for parents in the Harfoot camp. Let's go to Kazadun, shall we? and see how the parents are doing over there. We're going to check it now with Duran and Eldron, what I'm calling brothers,

brothers captains kings. Again, you bought it early on Elron stock. This is a great Elron episode, a great Duran episode. There's not a bad Elron and Duran episode, but like this is really good, right? My favorites. Just, I could just watch a 24-hour webcam

of these two interacting. Not in a way that is quite as creepy as that sounded, just because I really enjoy spending time with them. Will you be in the dark in your bathroom, Valerie, while you're watching it? Almost certainly. So we are starting with Elron petitioning King Duren. You know, nobody kneels a numinore,

but Elron's going to kneel in Kazadun to get what he needs here, right? Offering an exchange of game and grain and timber from the Alvin Forests, He's played settlers of Catan. He knows what you need to do to get the oar. Got to get those oar cards. You have to. Dude, can we play settlers next time you're in L.A. I love playing settlers.

Obviously. A really fun moment where these dwarves are speaking about El-Ran in Kuzdul and he understands him and responds back to them. Duran calls, Kuzdul is the language of the dwarves. Doren calls it Stone Tongue, as far as I know, is a show invention. Unless the captions tell you it's called the Hall of Lore. But I think he said, I think he said Stone Tongue. Is that what you heard?

I heard Stone Tongue, though, as you know, I heard House of Law. So who can say? I definitely heard Stone Tongue. And I like that Doran in his, I like that Elron in his petition here is using his status is a half elf to be a reason why they can trust in. This has come up a couple times. Like, I was rewatching that sequence

where Gil Gallad demands that Elrond tell the story of the origin of Mithril. And he calls him half elf, like in that moment as he's commanding him. And it just, like, always seems like this othering thing for Elron. And here Elrond's like, let me use this to my advantage as like the politician that I am. I'm an outsider too.

I'm not wholly. Like you can't trust elves, but I'm not an elf. I'm half elf. And so like you could trust me. And, and we can make this work. Doran.

I found, I found, I'll just say, I found that kind of strange. Like, I found it both. Tell me. I found it,

I had, I experienced a little bit of dissonance with that moment. I had like two competing instincts in response to it. Because on the one hand, And given that this plea is in pursuit of forging an alliance and forging a fellowship that must be built on trust. And given the way that mistrust has really festered not only inside of certain camps and communities, but certainly across them, I thought, like, yes, I had the same thought about political Elron in part because of the reveal we get about throwing the rock competition and the rock breaking competition.

and we talked about that. And in the premiere episode, like, this is, this is, this is all around politicking and, and using his savviness to achieve his end. And so that part of it is, is, is a play here, certainly. But it just felt a little off that on the one hand that he would say, yeah, you're right to not trust my kin as opposed to trying to foster more of a shared understanding. but equally strongly, and I think ultimately more strongly, I had the response that you just sketched out, which is like, this tracks for me.

It tracks for me that he would do this because, you know, the othering that you're mentioning, including from our very first all-round scene, where they tell him only elf lords. He can't go to the council meeting. Tough shit. Can't go to the council. Like, stay in your branch hammock here,

that look on his face. But as recently as the reveal, the one that leads to him having to comprehensive, the vow, the oath that he swore to his beloved friend and brother Duren about keeping the Mithril secret when he's when he's talking to Kellebrimbor about it and has learned the true purpose of Gilgallad's guiding hand. And Kellebrunberg was saying to him, like, I tried. I tried to get him to bring you into our confidence. And it's like, cool, you tried. But that ultimately the takeaway in the upshot is that I wasn't. I wasn't brought into your confidence.

And I was used as this pawn. And so there are these competing instincts inside of Elron. as a fellowship forger. And obviously we know ultimately his role in forging a very meaningful fellowship down the road. So I do like it because it's like a part of his journey and his evolution in terms of how he thinks of this. But it made me a little bit sad too, I guess. Well, I think what we get,

and we get this later with Elendiel, I think what we're seeing is like some of these key players in the last alliance of elves and men andors, like that they're not there yet. This is season one. Yeah. The doubt they have to push through. Absolutely.

And you're absolutely right that Elron's not building a solid bridge here. He's building a singular rope bridge that is like, you got to go through me. Right. To get to the L's because you don't trust them, but you can trust me. And like, again, that's politicking. You shall not. Unless I like you. But that's making himself essential to this arrangement.

Yeah. So politicking, right. So King Duren is not high on this proposition, to say the least. Not into it all. He talks about Aulay and the creation of Dors. We're going to talk about that a little bit more later. But his son is completely devastated by this. And Duren says very significantly,

delving into the dust beyond the darkness-empting rock shadow, rock shadow and mind to bury us all. beneath the mountain. I will not risk dwarven lives to help the elves cheat death. There is, again, trademark. We're going to talk later about this sort of baked in distress between the dwarves and the elves

to like back to their very creation. But I love the use. Again, we always want to like be on the lookout for very specific language use from Tolkien and from the showrunners here. The use of shadow here, right? When I hear shadow and I think about and I think about delving deep, you know, you hear, again, I'll say, go back to the shadow. You cannot pass to the Ballerog.

In fellowship as well at the Council of Elron, Gloin, who is a character that was cut from the films, but is in the books, talks about the way in which the doors were drawn back to Moria. They abandoned Moria after the Balrog, and then they went back, right? And Gloin says, Now many years ago that a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people, Once it came, we did not at first perceive.

Words began to be whispered in secret. It was said we were hemmed in a narrow place and that greater wealth and splendor would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria. The shadow, of course, where shadows lie. Like, the shadow is constantly, of course, also Sauron and, like, the influence of evil

and the temptation that we get all over the place. So I just like that there. What do you make of Duran the Younger, which is a title I will accept for this character? using the words like the words like drowning. My friend is drowning. Reaching for me to pull him to shore. Yeah.

You expect me to swat his hand away because you're afraid of a bloody rock fall. I found it impossible not to think of Galadriel and Halbron there. And a moment that we have seen centrally featured in this show forging an unlikely alliance where somebody did not swat a hand away. And what might it mean and where might it lead? You know, I think that one of the. shows real strengths. It comes up routinely for us as we're discussing it is the through lines and

the patterns. And I think in less deft and capable hands, sometimes that stuff can feel heavy handed when you're trying to so often reinforce a theme or draw these connections. There is such a grace and a poetry to it inside of rings of power that I just like adore. And across this conversation, whether it's the the Papa D language that you just outlined in the way that it makes us think of the Balrog makes us think of Mordor in the shadows there, this linking of the very idea of creation

to the elements of the earth, these recurring through lines, and then here, this idea of somebody reaching out to you in need. And it's like what you said earlier, which I think is a really central thing, not only, certainly in the wider Lord of the Rings universe, but really across,

fantasy stories. Like one of the things that we love most about them is when you forge that found family, like when you make that family for yourself and when you find that on your own

and that will obviously come up in the next conversation between the Duran's and this episode in a like deeply charged way when when Little D names Elrond,

his brother and absolutely enrages his father. But to us, it's this beautiful beautiful thing. And we'll talk about that more when we when we get there. But the other thing that this drowning language

made me think of was that that initial opening stretch with Galadriel and Finrod. And the idea of like what is hidden in the depths of the water and maybe what is like masks that you can't see and how that then maps on pretty cleanly to what would be hidden in the depths here inside of the mountain.

And these masks and these coverings. And can you heal and repair and restore the grove and when do you delve into something that you cannot really understand and then what do you unleash? And what's interesting about the, like, when you, thinking about clasped hands,

the thing that we have to think about, first and foremost, is Galadry on the Halberin because there's just been so many moments where they've, you know, classed forearms, essentially. That's, like, been a big thing. But even inside this episode, there is the shot of Norrie's, little hand reaching an apple up to the strangers, like large, grimy hand, you know?

So, like, hands being joined in fellowship and friendship and uneasy alliance and that's our stuff. We're working towards an alliance. How do we get there? How do we fight through the differences in cultures and all that? And differences in, you know, we need a big bad eye to unite us, I suppose. But I think that what is really interesting about all of this is as we watch this, We're rooting for Elron and Duran.

We're rooting, I mean, in theory, I'm rooting for the elves to not, you know, turn to dust on this earth, right? I'm rooting for Elron and Duren, like these pals, these friends, these brothers. But what's interesting, the dramatic tension as we watch is we know that King Duran is right. As King Duran's like, we can't do this, there will be dire consequences. Even these characters we love, like Disa, who are about to get to, right? Disa bafflingly wearing a gown as she forges an axe. Yes. Disa's wrong.

Prince Duran is wrong. And that is a wild and interesting thing to watch for us to like be rooting for them, to care about them and to know, you know, similar to like watching a seal door go along. We're like, this is so odd. You know, we know where this is going and it's so odd to watch this. And it's the, it's, um, it's again, that like better call Saul good prequel feeling, where you feel the doom looming over people watching them make choices and even people you care, not villains, but heroes, make choices

that lead them towards a doom. Would you, Mallory Rubin, make stew and Smith in a beautiful, fancy gown the way that Disa has decided to live her life in. has it done. Certainly not. I mean, as you know, first of all, I would order my my stew on DoorDash, but I do not. If I were to whip up a stew or do some smithin, I would certainly do so in at leisure, which is also how I podcast and conduct most of my affairs. She's got an apron on, but I'm not satisfied with its coverage of this beautiful, like, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful dress. So we've only seen Disa in one costume. And this is like, often Sometimes when we talk about rings of power, we talk about the fact that we can see the money on the screen.

But there's a lot of characters who Elron included, like this feathery shirt that Duren made a joke about in a couple episodes ago. He's been wearing that same feathery shirt for a while now. And I'm like, why don't these characters have costume changes? What's going on? Bronwyn, I mean, Bronwyn having the one blue dress, okay. Like she lives in, you know, peasant town USA, right? But like, Disa's a princess of Casa Dune. Where is her like, why does she only have like future Queen Allison one gown to use?

I don't know. I have a lot of questions about it. You already mentioned this exchange where they talk about the lice and the beard of Disa's mother. This is a fun little moment because there was, I don't know if you were. people listening to this podcast are as online as I am, but there was much Sturman Drang when the promo photos came out, and Disa, a Dwarven woman did not have a beard because there was a big debate about whether Dwarven women in Tolkien actually have beers or not. It is an ongoing debate, is an ongoing question.

The answer appears to be some do. Or maybe Disa just waxes. I don't know. I was going to say, who knows what everyone's personal grooming preferences are? That's for them to decide. Here's my first cry of the episode, which is Elron coming in. I don't know why he looks so like ingenue. He just like walks in and whirls around and just like looks up at Doran and just like looks so ingenue.

But the wordless communication of it's not going to happen. You got to go. And then the goodbye. And Doran just like weeping. Like tell me how this. How this went for you, Mallory, alone in a room in your bathroom. I was like a puddle. I was just so touched by this.

We do not say goodbye. We say. And then what do they say at the exact same time, Joe? Marry. And I love this too because we've heard, as you noted, Elron speaking stone tongue earlier in the episode. And now we get this return from Duren where he is using Elron's. language to communicate with him. And this, first of all, just this shared, the showing of shared, like, inclination to

learn about the other person's culture and world and inhabit it with them was so lovely and wonderful. And I was deeply moved by it just right there and the shoulder touch and the tears. But then when Elrond says, it means more than six. simply farewell, it means go towards goodness. We've had a few moments in this show so far inside and outside of Wandering Day where a single line has, I think, perfectly encapsulated and summed up what we love about this story and what it is seeking and asking us to strive for and reflect on how to value.

And like the idea of inside of that effort to to learn about each other and forge that that fellowship and that family, you know, it's difficult for me to think of too many ideas that are as lovely and aspirational as go toward goodness, the quest, the adventure, the journey, that hope and that faith, trying, going, doing, doing it together if you can. it made me think a little bit of our preview pod that we did with our pal Brian Cogman, the wonderful Brian Cogman. And when he talked about that far green country and how it can mean so many different things to you and there's something amorphous and intangible about it, but also that that's the beauty of it. And I thought that this achieved something very similar. I of course hit the old Quenia to English dictionary again to look at Namare, which is really interesting because it's basically like the Elvis aloha. It means you can use it to greet and to say goodbye. That's the other thing that's great about it. A goodbye can be a hello for something else.

I love it. But I love that essentially Elron, what Elrond is doing here is a little philology lesson. And we've talked before about the fact that Tolkien was a philologist, his love of language is first thing. So this is we're going to pause and talk about Tolkien and language because farewell is the common understanding of what Namarie means. But if you break down nah means towards and Marier means goodness. So like Elron's doing a little like. etymology here as he as he breaks down this word. Namare is also the name of a song that Galadriel sings.

Ah, like gold, fall, the leaves and the wind, long years numberless is the wings of trees. The years have passed like swift drafts of the sweetmead in lofty halls beyond the west beneath a blue vaults of Varda. It's a lot of farewell. Like this is a beautiful thing. Fun fact, Led Zeppelin adapted the first line of R.A. for their song, Bland, which also mentions Mordor and I think Sauron. A lot of Tolkien and Led Zeppelin, of course. But yeah, so like, Tolkien and language is so interesting because his first gig out of World

War I was to work for the OED. And what I love about this is that by the time he went to go work for the OED, the Oxford English Dictionary, they were already on the Ws. So there are some definitions that Tolkien wrote that are in the OED, but you won't find them until you get to the W. So like Walrus was written by Tolkien. So like if he just flipped to the back of the OED and by flip to the back, I mean like to your massive 24 volume set or whatever you have of the OED, you might find it. When he became a professor, he used to start his lectures by like quoting Beowulf in old English. Like he just loved old languages and pulling them

apart and their meaning and all that Anglo-Saxon deliciousness. Um, Malloy, did you know that in high school, I learned, for extra credit, I learned the prologue to the Canterbury Tales in the original Middle English. And it then became my like very favorite party trick, except like that's not a very cool thing to do at a party. But I think it's cool. Yeah. That's amazing. I hope other people listening also had to memorize the prologue to the Canterbury Tales in Middle English, but I can still do it. But I just think it's interesting to drill down on Tolkien and like the importance of single words like garden, like the fact that we could pause and look at how he uses the word garden, how specifically he uses it, this is how he

considers all language. And you see it crop up in stuff like the password at the doors of door and like speak friend and enter, the importance of the right word. Or even like film lines like you know, they call it to mine. Like, what do you call the thing? What is the precise word for it? Do you call it a mine? What's taters? Potatoes.

You know, like, what, like, what... My potato shirt. Yeah, I love it. Um... I want to love this. A little mash him, put a bit of a stew. And the show is engaging in this, right? Like, words like Adar,

father, that character, like, that's... That comes from, like, the, old gothic language. Attila, the Hun, means little father, Adar, Attila. Those are the roots that they're working with. And it's that kind of stuff that really underlies for me that this show gets, J.D. and Patrick as creators,

enjoy the shit on the level that Tolkien does. They love playing with language in the same way. And it really comes through. Tolkien wrote an essay on inventing his own language called The Secret Vice. And I love that he, like, I don't know, consider this secret vice. But there are 90 different languages that he created for Lord of the Rings. Some of them only have four words, but like Quenius and Darin, Kuzdulah, the stone tongue that we mentioned, the black speech. Like, there's a bunch of different invented languages.

There's some Tolkien scholars think that Tolkien really only wrote the Lord of the Rings in the first place so that he had a place to put all these languages that he invented. Yes. Yeah. And he's like, let me, you know, let me give it a home. Let me give it a history. Let me give it a background. But that's his like true love is like making up languages. It's like the language is the seed and it's planting it in the garden of the story.

We have this email from Andrew that I really love about episode six, last week's episode, the battle episode, when the orcs and Adar first enter the watchtower only to find it empty, Adar tells the orcs in Black Speech to search it. And Ork then commands the horde also in Black Speech. All of you fan out find them. These are translated words on the screen. My heart stopped when I heard the black speech word at the end of this command. It's clearly Gimbatul, which means find them, and is used extremely famously in the inscription on the one ring. I'm not going to read this black speech because I don't know how to pronounce it, but in the darkness. One ring to roll them all.

One ring the bun. So again, this is just rings of power constantly. Also, Galadro when she whispered to her horse to make it go faster last week, it's the same command that Arwen used to whisper to her horse to get it to the Ford in the Peter Jackson films. So just constantly putting these words in here, give them a moment for pity's sake, like all that sort of stuff. Just constantly playing with the language to link all of this together. And I just thought this is a really good moment to talk about it just because like exactly what you said. I love what you said about this idea that El Ron speaks some of the stone tongue, the coastal, the secret language of the dwarves.

and that Doren speaks a little Quenia back at him. Beautiful. What a beautiful friendship. Duren's sobbing. It's a heart-wrenching, Joanna. Heart-wrenching. And then the convenient slide of the mythreel across the table to land I hope I do play some shuffleboard because this was top tier.

That's a great shot. Great shot. Cures the Leaf. My question. So now we know the theory Mithriel could cure at least cure the blight on this tree. Why has this not been tried before?

Why are we doing it now? Let's actually just hold up a nugget against a leaf and see if it works. Let's test it out. Yeah. It's a good question. Yeah, it's a good question. As always, we have some notes for the characters.

Most of mine will be reserved for Allendiel and will come in the form of why didn't you go look to confirm if your son was dead. But if this is your note, I think that's a great one. It's a great one. I guess a clue in this direction is the fact that, like, his little linden tree sapling was flourishing underground.

I suppose we could have deduced that possibly the mithril being shot through because of Dune was helping that tree grow where it shouldn't grow. But, uh, yeah, absolutely. Here we are. Yeah. All right. Sorry, Dernan, it's not just the power of your attentive love, though it is also that. It's mostly the beautiful.

I talked about the visuals of the scene, and I think you know that my favorite visual was a sweaty, tumbled-haired Elrond doing some mining with his pal-dorn. It's just tremendous stuff. 10 out of 10, no notes. They should always be this hot and sweaty. That's all I have to say about that. Oh, my God. Maybe that's why they're all over. wearing one outfit. You know, you need to maintain the sheen. And if you're constantly

freshening up and changing, you're right. Then you can't. You got to bake in it. Yeah. As you mentioned, Elam reveals that he threw the rock-breaking contest, which, uh, this was wonderful. Made me feel very smug. This was great. I was winded. This made, this so powerfully made me think of like a loss of Gimley, you know, oh, I'm starting to feel a little. Yeah, like a little tingle in my fingers. You're fucking hammered and passed out. And of course, one of my all time, I know. I just know, as we all do in our hearts and souls,

that Legolas fudged his death count at Helms Deep to make Gimley feel better. He had to have racked up like 500 kills. We all know it to be true. Search your feelings. The score, the Bearman query score, which is constantly engaging with the original Howard Shore score, is like this little light prancing little theme for them here is very Legolas and Gimli having any of their various contests that they have. There's this moment here, this exchange.

Let's hear it, Carlos. I always thought you were made dwarvish for an elf. And you are a rather elvish dwarf, Duran. Son of Duran. Grand son, scoff, if you like, the mightiest thing a dwarf can do is to be worthy of the name of his father. Hmm. We do have our secret names.

For use, only amongst ourselves, we reveal them only to family. Wives, parents, sisters, brothers. You save it, Duren, for the far side. Oh my God. So we're crying. We're just supposed to just weep. on Zoom. Carlos' camera is off,

but I'm going to assume that he's in tears as well because how could you not be? Yeah, his puppy is also crying, I think. Oh, my God. This is, okay, so my brother, my captain, my king, like, there are so many moments

of fellowship and friendship between two men, especially in Lord of the Rings, of course, because there's not that many female characters. And the combination, okay, Carlos just said what I'm about to say,

Carlos says, I just want them to kiss, to be honest. Yes. That is exactly what I was going to say, which is you've got that friendship, but then I also like make out at the same time. And that's how I feel all the time when I watch Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm like, this is a beautiful.

It's a beautiful platonic friendship and also please make out. Like, it's just, it's probable. What's going in here? Yeah. I ship it. This is also one of the most beautiful scenes of the season so far on the heels of that humor and that charm. During's, before the real tear-jurking moment,

Elron, you know, poking fun at this naming tradition. And then that reply from Duren, that scoff, if you like, being worthy of the name of your father, it was hard not to think about what we've heard Elrond voice about his own father and this life-defining weight of wondering if he would be proud. Like if you have done things in your own life to be worthy of the mantle that you inherited

and how that can be something that you come to resent, as we'll get to momentarily with our durands, but also then something that you long for and you seek. That was just another real shared moment of understanding that literally the characters didn't even have to voice. It's just there for us. We know we can think about Eleval. around's own life in that way when he is hearing that from Duren and know that he has this ability

to appreciate and understand because of his own experience. That's lovely. The way that Duren chokes out that quiet little El Romm, as he is about to tell him his secret name, was so beautiful and tender and so well acted and wonderful. And that you save it, Duren reply, was just incredible. Like the promise. Now, on the one hand, we're trained as viewers when characters make promises

to each other. It's like the net start. They usually don't make it to the far side. Never make a promise about the far side, ever. No. But. Not the comic strip,

not the other side of the war. None of it. Don't joke about the far side. What a lovely thing. To try to like build and then hold on to that hope together. You know, we talk about the Balrog and what is lying in weight

in the form of shadow. But what is all. waiting for you on the other side there in this aspirational form and shape. And for the elves in particular, you know, we talk about their long lives and this idea of the undying lands and the things that they're working toward and like to take a version of that and try to share that with somebody else. This is just really, really special. Great scene. Same for the far side. It's such an interesting phrase that I immediately did that thing where I looked up like, what does this mean in Lord of the Rings? I don't.

really have a great, a wonderful answer, because mostly Tolkien uses it just to mean over there. He uses it a bunch, but mostly just means over there. There's only like one mystical use of it when Mary's talking about early on the story, Mary says, there are various queer things living deep in the forest and on the far side, or at least I've heard so, but I've never seen any of them, but something makes paths whenever one comes inside, one finds open tracks, but they seem to shift and change from time to time in a queer fashion. So that's like, that's the most charged version of Farside that shows up

in the text as far as I could tell. But if you have a different answer, hobbits and dragons at dm.com. All this mining though, as we know, is very tumultuous and dangerous. Again, we're like, maybe don't do this this way. Slow down. And Duren finds this massive cavern that's filled with mythreal

that looks like it really supports that origin myth we heard from Galad and Elron before. Right? Definitely. Yeah. It feels all true. And seeing the way that the Mithril healed the leaf also. Yeah, it does.

Exactly. It does feel legit. So we got a couple of emails about the Mithril origin story because, you know, this has been a very contentious thing in the fandom. So this first one comes from Scott.

And Scott says, I've been pleasantly okay with the lore of days surrounding the origins of the Mithril. The thought that specifically occurred to me was that this lore update, that with this lore update, we now can say that Frodo entered Mordor with the light of two of the three cimmeroles represented by the vial of L.N. Dill's light, and the Mithril shirt that he wore. I found this thought very pleasing and then started wondering if the showrunner's goal was

to tie all three simirels to Frodo. Has it been explored in any of the texts, what magic cause a sting or other elven blades to glow blue in the presence of orcs orok, if you will. What if we find out that the elven blades are quenched in special waters that actually draw light from the missing aquatic cimmeril? Then Frodo would enter mortar with the light from all three legendary gems. I love this. First of all, I would like to say that I found this thought very pleasing is a beautiful sentence. Just delightful. Very, very Tolkienian.

And I think this is awesome. I love this idea. And the idea of Frodo going into the dark with the light of three zimerales on him. Yeah. That's amazing. And another incredibly cool and inventive way that preserves the thing we know is coming but can connect these threads of this tapestry. I'm into it.

What about you? I love it. We don't know the answer about the light of the velvet blades. These elven blades are from the first. they're old, old blades, right? Not all elven blades glow blue. The only sentence I could find about it was about the glowing blades, being the work of elvish smiths in the elder days.

These swords shone with a cold light, if any orcs were near. But no sentence that's like, because we dip them in the shining waters where that third Simmeral dropped. So, but what that gives Patrick and J.D. license, too, is to create their own story of that as well if they want to. So brilliant. All right. Richard wrote this is really brilliant email that I'm not going to read Olive, but it connects that Mithril Origin story to the story, the biblical story of the tree of knowledge. J.D., when I interviewed J.D. over at VF., J.D. says it was like,

Tolkien put some stars in the sky and let us make the constellations. Like, that's their guiding principle, right? Is there these little stars, these little marks that they're trying to hit, but they're shaping their story around it. And Richard wrote it and said, like, among the stars of the showrunners are weaving to fill in the gaps in the second age is Tolkien's Christian underpinnings for his legendarium. And J.D., who was, like, you know, brought up very religious. has talked about the way in which she's examined religious texts, the ways examine the way that religious texts use something called parallelism where you tell one story to tell another, right? And so this idea of this tree, we see a baerog and an elf fighting good and evil,

you know, if that's where you want to put those two categories, like fighting over this tree, the fruit of the tree being the me thrill and the promise of the fruit of knowledge from, the tree being long life, that's part of the promise that the serpent makes, like long life and the mithril being the thing that could extend the lives of the elves. And so Richard concludes the email saying, so is there a serpent and a tar in the details here as well? Perhaps this applicable parallelism is confirmation that Sauron, the deceiver, is indeed in the details. Both songs are warning steeped in a story of the conflict between good and evil, the answer to which will

ultimately mean life or death, which answer may be twisted to evil ends by a deceiver, as is the case in both tales. So how do you feel about it? I love it. I mean, you were always fine with this Me Threal origin story. We never had like an issue with it. But I think instead of rejecting something whole cloth, I really like this, the thought that these two emailers and other emails we've gotten, I've put into like, okay,

if this is the story they're going with, like, what are, what's some of the deeper meaning we can, we can mine for here. So mind for. Hopefully not, not too greedily. Or too deep. Yeah, I love that. That description of the Elven warrior poured all his light into the tree to protect it. The Balrog channeled all his hatred into the tree to destroy it, forging of their conflict.

A power. Power! A power! All right, Elron gets kicked down on his ass because King Durran's here and he's like, uh, no. It's tough. What did I say? Go. He looks very sad, but maybe a little hopeful.

I don't know. And then we get the showdown between King Doran and Prince Doran. He kept that mithril nugget, so you left with a souvenir. He does have one small nugget, one nug. I have probably better for another ring, but some questions about what use that might be put to on his next journey. You know what? Great, great question. What harm can one little mug do?

Okay, Mallory, take us through this fight between King Duren and Princeton. I texted you after watching this, this shook me to my core. This was, first of all, just incredibly acted. I mean, these lines are so deliciously red and enunciated. It's just incredible. the entire speech that we get here from King Duren about his baby, his son, his child, sickly, this fear, would he last? And then this moment, first of all, he's like describing him like he's holding him like a petrified dragon egg in front of a fire just waiting for him to hatch, right?

Like there was something lovely about that, caring for him, tending to him not giving up. And then there's this moment where he explains to his son that he looked down upon his face one day and saw this gray-bearded future king. And told the old mom not to worry. The occurrence here of like another prophecy and then what a character does putting stock into some sort of vision of the future was like difficult not to think about given the way that that's manifested across character sets. Dürgen's response to that, how do you expect me to move mountains father? If you fall to pieces when I dig a single hole, you speak of greatness for me, but you suffocate in me any ambition, any desire, any thought that does not originate in you. There are so many things that I loved about that. One, it's just like, we don't necessarily think of Lord of the Rings as a coming of age tale, but in many quintessential respects it is.

because a lot of the character arcs and storylines center on this idea that you build that trust, yes, but also like nobody can pave the way for you. You have to carve it for yourself. And then you find other people to walk it with you. But like whether we think of Bilbo or Pipin or any number of other characters, this idea of like finding your own courage is very central to the story. And I think that this is very much of a piece.

Like how can you find your own future, if someone else is just saying this is what it has to be. And it's that choice and destiny idea then, too. The hobbits are very child-coded. You know what I mean? Like, Tolkien put them in the story to represent his children, essentially. So, like, we're going to talk about C.S. Lewis a little bit, but, like, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien were working in tandem, and, like, C.S. Louis literally puts, like, the Pevensey children in Narnia. Like, that's that story. Mary and Pippin and Frodo and Sam are essentially children heading off into a wider, world and coming back literally tall literally taller you know what i mean like literally grown up so yeah oh god during this was a tough one rips the collar off of his son yeah and throws it to the ground the collar has runes on it um but it says durin the deathless on it which is the title associated

like in the lore, Doran is just a title passed down from instead of like the actual name of King Doran, Prince Doran, etc. But basically saying, you know, to call back immediately to that thing that Dorian told Elron,

like, you know, there's no pride greater than living up to the honor of your father's name and for his name to, for his father to rip that name off of him. Yeah. And throw it into the ground. And essentially, you know, according to what Deisa says afterwards,

disinherit him. this is like, you know, you made a great point earlier about how we have to think about what we know the future and the story holds. And so like our instinct as viewers in this moment is to kind of rebel against what King Duren is espousing here. I think especially because not only because it's kind of cruel and stifling even if it comes from some like protective desire. But like it's it's such a, it's in direct opposition really to what he voiced to his son. a couple episodes ago about like intuition and how powerful that is. And then he's saying like, your intuition here is just not something that I am ready to abide. Again, because I want to protect our people, but even so, like also he's just like the elves, their fate is sealed.

That's not on us. And that's like a pretty foul thing inside of this universe where reaching across borders to help your fellow is at the heart of what is like good and worthy and worth striving for. Like when the thing that finally incites that response of ripping off the breastplate is what we talked about earlier when Duran says, Elrond is as much of a brother to me

as if he'd been fired in my mother's own womb. And his father screams, how dare you, how dare you invoke your mother's memory to defend your decision to betray your own kind? I was thinking of Baylon Greyjoy there and like him screaming at Theon not to name Rob Stark brother

And where, what path does that send Theon down? You know? Like if you were forced to choose between two camps, two families, rather than being encouraged to try to nurture that bond, that can be a really harmful thing. But then we have to hold on to that idea in conjunction with how honestly, like, we love Dern and we love Disa. Like kind of alarming it was to hear Disa's speech.

to him at the end of the episode, which is like, great pep talk, love a strong supportive marriage. Also, this has a lot of delve too greedily and too deep and frankly, like a lot of my precious energy in it. No matter how many crests he hurls the floor, someday this will be your kingdom during the fourth, yours and mine. Together we will rule this mountain all others before our time is done that Mithro belonged to us together one day we are going to dig. Like, Disa, we love her.

But I wrote Lady Macbeth in my notes. Like that's what, that's the vibe she's giving off here. Because we know that to dig is the wrong move here. This all wraps up with, you know, old King Duran himself, throwing the leaf into the mithril cavern. And as it goes down, already I'm thinking of the opening of two towers as the leaf is going down through the caverns of Kazadun, as you saw Gandalf fall and fall and fall and fall.

what do we find at the bottom of the cavern there, Mallory Rubin? Fucking Belrog. That's a fucking Balrog. My God, this is the thrilling moment. Just delightful. Don't care that it had been teased in like 9,000 trailers and tweets. I was delighted. It was so funny.

There's this like Instagram ad that's just sort of like mortal will arise and it's the ballrog and I was like, oh yeah, that's coming this week. Okay. Anyway, Balrog's here. To be continued. It was great, Joe. You know what it made me think of a little bit? John taking Danny into the cave at Dragonstone to show the wealth and the expanse of the

dragonglass, but then also you go just a touch further on what's there, this warning, these drawings of the walkers and the doom that awaits. This competing instinct, like you're digging and forging to try to help, but then where does that help lead you to? Or that desire to protect and fight lead and how can it lead you astray? like very of a piece with with Galadriel's arc too. So there's a lot of that there. And like you said, I like that because we know certain characters make it out.

So there has to be tension in other ways. And you get that really here. All right. Speaking of Galadriel, let's go to before door to no more to arc, aka the artist formerly known as the Southlands. Did you think of Jack Shepherd and lost when we opened on an eyeball? It's opening. Of course.

I'm always thinking about stupid Dr. Jack Shepherd. And is like, again, this is incredible. There's a horse on fire. There's bodies everywhere. There's ash everywhere. It just looks so amazing. I wrote the exact same thing in my notes that you texted me, which was Galadryl's first instinct, just called for Ellen Dielan Halbrin.

Oh, my God. What relatable contact. I did. I texted you girls same. And you're like, this is the first thing I have in my notes. It really was. Unfortunately, instead of Elend Delaan Halbrin, she gets. Theo, but I got to say, best Theo episode by far. This is an inspired pairing. I was so into

this, this duo, which was shocking to me. It was really compelling. Theo us, okay, so again, again, I want to pay close attention to language here because, like, they're in the red and they're in the ash, and he asks her why they, like the, meaning the Uruk, did this. And she says to make it their home, their shadow land. The use of shadowland pinged for me, not because I'm on a mass of CS Lewis Scholar because I'm not, but because there's a great Anthony Hawkins film called Shadowlands about C.S. Lewis that I have seen. So I was like,

okay, why did they call that? I've never bothered to look into why they called that movie Shadowlands, but it's a play and a movie and stuff like that about C.S. Lewis. But Lewis and Tolkien, close close friends, they had a literary group called the faintest inklings, which is one of my favorite things ever. I used to have

a book club called The Faintest Inclings. Like, love it. But farewell to Shadowlands is the title of the last chapter in the last Narnia book, the last battle. So on the last page of the Narnia story, C.S. Lewis, this is a real twist, honestly. C.S. Lewis writes, there was a real railway accident, said Aslan softly, your father and mother and all of you are, as used to call it in the shadow lands, dead. The term is over. The holidays have begun. The dream has ended. This is the morning. And as he spoke, he no longer looked to

them like a lion, but the things that began to happen after were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us, this is the end of all stories. And we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them, it was only the beginning of the real story, all their life on this world and all their adventures in Narnia, had only been the cover and the title page. Now at last, they were beginning chapter one of the capital G great, capital S story, which no one on earth has read, colon, which goes on forever, colon, in which every chapter is better than the one before. So, I mean, I don't, I don't know that I knew this. Like the Pevensey kids, except for Susan, because she discovered

lipstick, but the Pevency kids, and all the other kids that ever went to Narnia all die in a train accident at the end. I think I never finished the Chronicles of Narnia is what I discovered. And they don't go to Narnia. They go to heaven. And Aslan becomes what we knew he was, which is Jesus, essentially. And it's a very Christian ending for a very Christian story. But that use of shadowland means just like earth, I guess. But shadow land is the story of that Anthony Hopkins film. Anthony Hopkins plays CS Lewis is about the crisis of faith that CS Lewis had towards the end of his life because of his wife's illness.

So it's this sort of like this dark realm, this disconnect from the light from the faith, all that sort of stuff. I don't know. Do you need Shadowlands thoughts or feelings? C.S. Lewis, thoughts or feelings? I had a great meal once at the pub where C.S. Louis and Tolkien used to meet and talk about stories and I was like, the steak and ale pie is delicious.

We'll have a crisp cider, and this is one of the crowning achievements of my life. I'd love to get back to England one day soon. You know, when you mentioned questioning faith, I mentioned that a bit earlier with Norrie, and we can save this for a couple minutes down the road if you want, but I do think that was very present in this.

episode, this idea of questioning faith. And like, I loved hearing Galadriel and Theo talk about it because one of the things that we've been tracking closely across episodes is Galadryl's increasing self-awareness. And like when she is sharing a lesson that she has like only pretty recently been able to learn for herself. And there was a lot of that in their conversations in addition to just some delightful fellowship, you know, Peter Jackson trilogy, visual parallels where I'm like they're just hiding under this tree root like our pals were from the Nazgal. And also, I can't tell you how badly I wanted that approaching orc to shout man flesh when they asked what he smelled. Alas, he'd said ash. So that was disappointing. But we hold on to our dreams when we can.

When Theo says, my home is gone. Where's the design in that? Galadriel says, I cannot yet see it. And this was on the heels of her saying to him. There are powers beyond darkness at work in this world. Perhaps on days such as this, we have little choice but to trust to their design and surrender our own. And that is a sentiment that is so deeply steeped in religious faith. Yeah. There's a design, there's a plan that's bigger than us that we can't know. Right. And in episode three, Galadriel said this thing to Hallibrand, where she said, says, ours is no chance meeting, not fate nor destiny, nor any other words men use to speak the forces they lack the conviction to name.

Ours is the work of something greater. So again, that there's a bigger plan here. We have to surrender ourselves to. There's this concept. And again, shout out to Professor Correolson and the Tolkien professor for teaching me about this. It's called Estelle. And it's this Tolkienian philosophical concept about that sort of that high, hope when Sam sees the light in Mordor, it's a complex philosophical concept from Elvish

thought it means trust or faith, but it's bigger than, I guess, what men are capable of is, was Galadriel's point when she was talking to Hallibrand about that. So, yeah, surrendering yourself to that. And I think that what we're seeing in Galadriel is someone who has learned so much from just the end of last episode to this. The explosion in the volcano taught her, it was a rude awakening for her, a big moment. And I think it, when she sort of chastises Theo for, she says, when I was your age, there was no such things as work, and he says, good, and she chastises him.

That is such a huge difference from the wild shit she was saying to Adar at the end of last week's episode, right? Right. And I think, first of all, we're going to run out of time, but I could write a dissertation on how I feel like this Theo Galadryladyl thing is very much the final act of Into the Woods, which is Stephen Sondheim's great musical about fairy tale characters traveling through our wasteland. There's this song, no one is alone. And the lyrics in that song is about the lessons that these fairy tale characters have learned. Wiches can be right. giants can be good. You decide what's right. You decide what's good. And talking about how they have their own point of view, they have got people on their side.

Like, someone is on our side, someone else is not. While we're seeing our side, maybe we forgot they are not alone. And I think that's something really smart that Rings of Power is doing with these orcs. We've got a bunch of emails about this about Adar as a character who is painting a, what's so wrong about wanting a homeland for your people? Maybe don't kill a bunch of elves and Southlanders and, you know, like, destroy their lives in order to do so. But I love this email we got from Declan who said Galadriel stands about orcs in episode six is genocidal, but it's also pretty much the official in-universe stance on orcs. What at our speech did was remind me of the origin of dwarfs.

This goes back to what we were going to say earlier. Dwarves weren't in the plans of the creator, but were an imitation by Aule of the children of Aru, like a bad Prometheus, but they had no sentience as they lacked true fire or creation, a copy of a copy kind of thing. But Aru looked kindly on Auley as a kind of well-meaning, talented idiot son who had played with his dad's tools and gave the dwarves true life. Though he couldn't rid them of their love of rocks and gems and their jealousy of elves, they are baked in. Tolkien on race, yikes. But one aspect is that the envy between his major races, elven, men, and dwarves was designed, baked in, and kind of out of control.

Maybe that says nothing about his politics or view of the human condition. Maybe it says everything, but it's a world he created racism based on inherent racial differences built in. The orcs, as far as I've read, never get a sympathetic read. But it's interesting, isn't it? The idea of a homeland for orcs. their basic right to exist, not as slaves. This kind of thinking wasn't part of Tolkien's vision, but it can be part of ours. It may seem tried to have a show explore the sympathetic background of classic villains,

but in Lord of the Rings world, it's truly revolutionary. I think that's what they're going for with the reveal that the kinsling of villager is upsetting. They are a loss, but it isn't any worse than killing orcs. Maybe that's where they are leading us. Ultimately, all slaying is kinslaying. this would be the big swing that the show actually takes nuance, that it ultimately fits a not parable for World War I, kinslaying encouraged by the powerful war as waste,

power hungry selling soldiers in a human grocery store, what's so civil about war? Anyway, we got a ton of emails about this idea of sympathy for the orcs and how rings of power could be a show that both reveres its source material and is maybe criticizing it at the same. time. What do you, what do you think of that, Mallory? Oh, boy. That's an interesting one. So a few, a few thoughts. I think that like this also connects to another, another topic that is very present and central in the conversations that Galadriel and Theo have, which is like intention.

And again, doubt. And blame. Yeah. And blame, which goes across the storylines, Ollendell blaming himself, you know, saying later. I should never have pulled the elf on board. Galadriel looking down at the encampment with this real dread of like these people are not going to be happy to see me. This, it wasn't your fault. Yes, it is exchange that Galadriel and Theo have. And one of the things that Galadriel says is, well, cannot be known. Hallows the mind, fill it not with guesswork. And I think one of the things I really love about this version of Galadriel is that so many of the things that she says are, To me, and again, everyone can have and should have their own response to this, like, clearly wrong. And so dogmatic and rigid. And this connects to that discussion of Estiel before too. And like one of the things that I love about that, of course, is like, that's also Aragorn's name when his identity is masked. And he's living in hiding with Elrond's like to have his name be hope. And so you have this beautiful thing, like this idea of faith as a source of. faith and trust as a source of hope for the future that you don't have to give up and then in fact finding a way to maintain that is central and that's a lot of what Galadriel is saying to Theo here

and like when she says to him because he's trying to assume responsibility for this I gave a power to the enemy she says some say that is the way of things but I believe the wise also look upon what is in our hearts and this was not in yours. Do not take the burden of this day upon your shoulders Theo you may find it difficult to put down again like

she's giving him the put up your sword, you know, that like the other side of the exchanges that she's had before. And so much of that comes from her own growth on the one hand and her own reflection. I found myself thinking of like the cap, the cap Tony, uh, rift in civil war and caps the safest hands are still our own idea. And how like overtly tyrannical and fascist and scary that would be if we heard that

from so many characters, especially superpowered ones, but how because it's Steve Rogers were like, yeah, exactly. And this idea of intention and like which characters get to make decisions like that. And so on the one hand, that faith can be this beautiful, nurture and guiding thing. It can give you comfort and purpose and meaning. And also it is true that you can lose yourself in it. And that if you think there is this grand design that is at work and this thing you're moving toward, you can use that as a justification to unleash something unholy on other people. And so I think that that complexity needs to be centered in the story. And I'm glad that that's happening. Yeah. At our similar to Kilmonger, we're like, we get your point of view, but we cannot ride

with you on the way that you are going about your plan, right? Okay. Really quickly before we roll on from Gladrily and Theo, once again, a surprisingly great duo in this episode, I think, is Theo asking her if she's lost any kin. And this is a huge moment, right? Yes. She mentions her brother, which we know about. But then she also brings up something that book readers and film lovers know that Galadryl's straight up married.

Her husband's name is Caliborne. She said Calaborn was his name. We met in a glade of flowers. I was dancing. He saw me there. The war seemed so far away then. This is a huge thing because the meeting. And then she basically says he went off to fight.

I haven't seen him since. So as far as Galadryl knows, Calaborn is dead, I suppose. We know he's like a Sildor, we know he's not. So that's interesting. But she thinks he is, which might still allow her to fuck Hal Brand. And as I also texted you, I assume that's what she means when she said that wound needs selfish medicine. Let's go. I love this for you, Mallory.

And I hope you get everything you desire in the finale. But I do want to shout out real quickly. There is no recorded meat cute for Galadry. and Calaborns just they met and they fall in love. So this idea that she was dancing in a meadow, a glade of flowers, this is borrowed from the lay of Luthian. Once again,

I must protest the fact that Vigo Mortensen's singing the lay of Luthian was cut from the theatrical edition of Fellowship the Ring, but you can see it in the extended edition. But as the lay of Luthian, which is the story of Beren in Lutian goes, that she was dancing there to a pipe unseen, and the light of stars was in her hair and in her Raymond's glimmering. He peered between the hemlock leaves.

He saw in wonderflowers of gold upon her mantle in her sleeves. And then she heals him. He feels healed by seeing her dancing. What's really beautiful about this is that this is a story from Tolkien's own love story with his wife, Edith, that in 1917 when he was, he got like trench fever, whole thing, World War I. he was in a hole, not the most idyllic spot in all of England, but he's in hall. And he has this memory of her dancing in a hemlock grove. And he later wrote to his son Christopher, 1972, he wrote, in those days her hair was raven,

her skin clear, her eyes brighter than you have seen them, and she could sing and dance. And so he gave Barron and Luthian these Star Cross lovers. We've talked about how they put Barron and Luthian on their gravestones. He gave them this meat-cute origin story that is one of his fondest memories of his wife. And this is what J.D. and Patrick have given to Galadriel and Calaborn here, which is, you know what? Quite beautiful, even if she does end up fucking Alvin on the road to Lyndon. All right. What do you want to say about a sealed or Nellendale and Valendil and everything that happens here?

And poor Queen Muriel. Oh, my God. Yeah. first of all, RIP to your guy on Tom Bruttle Okay

I just ask you a question but I just want to say really quickly This volcano explodes And my my thought was no one was going to die And then the episode opened And we see a bunch of dead people So I was like Oh, and then I started doing TV watching math

And I was like Yeah but like none of our main None of our characters are going to die And I was like Okay like one unimportant character is going to die, and it's Untamo. Like, who had dies early written all over from the beginning, to be honest with you? And I'm usually very angry when a lot of people die, but none of our characters die,

like Battle of Winterfell sort of vibes. But, like, um... Joanna! I know Jora dies. You don't mean that. I know. Oh, my God. I'm sorry.

Anyway. RIP, the own great joy. But the way they roll it out, the cost that we do see, Miriel lose her sight, they think is sealed or is dead. They don't check, though. It's really concerned about Bronwyn and a rondeer. Like, it's, for some miracle, it worked for me in this episode. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

What are you saying? Yeah, the, the biggest question I actually had was how, given that everybody's in the same little place, their colladriel and Theo ended up breaking off and being so separate far away from everybody else. But because it gave us that a surprisingly delightful little pairing there, I was okay with it. So a couple things on the allendial front, you know, we've we've chatted a lot already about blame and to see the way that his bitterness and his regret is seeping in. And some of that is something that he feels for himself clearly, but we feel the force with which that is emanating

off of him, the way that he says Galadriel's name to Mariel as she approaches. It is just dripping, dripping with derision. And their quick chemistry and understanding and shorthand with each other was one of the keys to this alliance unfolding in the first place, which is, of course, the source of his regret, right? If he hadn't reached out, like, says brought her on the ship. That's another hand swatting away, a shore moment there as well, too. But like, it manifested in some interesting ways, for example. I was really struck by the fact that, like, he is, we see that barrack is in a real state. Now, of course, we know we had this lovely scene last week about how this bond between horse and rider, we know that barrack consents,

unlike everybody else that Seildore is alive and he's like, I'm going to go Polibrego, right? How did Elendale calm Barrick last week? And to the point where he elicited this like, can you teach me, this real bridge moment between father and son, he whispered in elvish to him, doesn't think to try that here. And I thought that that really neatly summed up the way that he is distancing himself from something that he now views as a threat. And of course, he was a rarity in Newmanore for not feeling that way.

And so that's like a very sad and tragic shift in loss inside of this episode. The way that he like turns around and is just looking out into the distance weeping when Muriel professes that they're coming back. That they're coming back. And that was like a very cool speech and declaration of intent from from Muriel. Poor blinded Mariel. You have some thoughts on blindness? Yeah. because as far as I know

and no just true she's not blind in the text right so I don't know if this blindness is going to last or not but I was just curious like why they would blinder like what what is going on

with the blindness here and there's a few instances of blindness and Lord of the Rings for Frodo Mary and Pip and they all are connected to encountering the Nazcaul essentially so there is a sort of like mystical I mean we saw the ember go into her eyes.

So this isn't like mystical blindness. But there is this sort of like connected to evil, connected to mortar, mystical blindness that happens in Lord of the Rings. But I'm curious what like what do you, what did it ping for you? Blindness, her blindness here. Well, I think like a couple different things, you know, given, given how interesting Mariel's own relationship to prophecy and to visions. Yeah, vision and destiny and like what you what you see.

about the future has been. There's something like symbolic and poetic and apt about that, like putting so much stock in what they had glimpsed in the seeing stone and then having this moment where she thinks finally that she is doing this thing to ensure avoiding this outcome. And then her father says her, don't go. Like all of their way to do is darkness. Now here we are. She does this is like literalized, right, in multiple respects for her individually, this personal loss and change. And then obviously more broadly for the Southlands. but like so many characters across stories have a moment like this where they are tested in some way. If you lose, and of course the episode is called the eye, and of course that makes us think of Sauron,

but I think that there are so many different ways that the idea of like sight and seeing manifests across this episode, we open on Galadriel's eye. We have this like I like scorch of the earth with the volcanic rock, et cetera, et cetera, on and on the examples go. Mariel loses her sight. Papa, Papa Dee even says there's the, the, the Disa says, like, his eyes too dim to see when they're talking about King Dern, etc. So, like, I was thinking of a couple things. I was thinking of Aria and her faceless man training and being robbed of her sight

and the way that, like, like, how necessary that is to unlock a different way of thinking and a different kind of enhanced reliance on other senses and other understanding. And I was thinking too of Canaan, our guy, Canaan Jarus from Star Wars Rebels. and the way that the loss of his sight and everything that unfolds on Malacore leads to initially this not only pain, but this real separation, but how ultimately it is a pathway through his training with Bendu, et cetera, to a different kind of site and a different enhanced view on his direct role in shaping events. And so, like, I'm curious, you know, to your point about whether

this will be temporary. I'm really curious because I could see it going either way. But I think even if it is a temporary thing, there's a chance for this to unlock something fairly seismic about the way Muriel thinks about her role in the story and Numeror's role more broadly. I like the idea that like maybe she can still see with the Palantir, like she can see prophetically, but she can't see physically with her eyes anymore. And, you know, in the Odyssey, in Greek lore, one of the most famous prophets, Therisius's blind prophet. Like, you know, blindness and prophecy, often go hand in hand. That's really interesting. We're going to talk just very briefly about Barak, Isildo's horse. This has to make us think about Brago, Aragorn's horse in the two towers.

Absolutely. Also knows that Aragorn isn't dead and goes to find him and bring him back. That's a film invention. That's a Peter Jackson invention. So what I love is, like, that Jady and Patrick are obviously. calling back to that, that the writers of this episode are obviously calling back to that. But it's not to the text, it's to the movies. And this is just like all part of what's in the sauce for the Rings of Powers. Like, we're not just, we're not just citing the text in Manusia, which we are, but we're also, like, touching on these movie-only things. Like, you mentioned the cowering of the hobbits under the, under the branch as the Black Riders ride past.

Just a few more things before we're done here. Arondere and Bronwyn, their happy little family with Theo, they're going to a numinorian colony named Pilargear. And if you thought that had something to do with Gondor, ding, ding, ding! Yep. Gold star for you. Polargear is the Port City at the base of Gondor. You might remember it from the Peter Jackson films as the place where the Corsairs are, which is a regrettable,

one of many regrettable racial incidents in the Peter Jackson films. The Corsairs are there. Ergoin, Legolas, and Gimley, show up and the corsairs are like you in one army and they're like this giant ghost army motherfucker and the great and the king of the dead and all the green ghosties take over the ships that's polargas so that's where broughman and rondeur are going it's a little bit of a timeline fudge that there's a numinorian colony already there but like that's that's fine that's what's happening we're going to the bottom the base of gondor and to murkwood fun fun times for all of us

what do you want to say about halbrand that you haven't already said about elvish medicine and the very Jesusy wound that he has on his side. Well, you know, he has that the sigil that was on his pouch. They've got like a nice poster. How did they make that? Behind him and just like ripping off magic guy, blacklight wall hangings for his dorm room, loved it. Where did that come from?

Yeah. Once again, deeply disturbed by the like chanting. the parting of of of the throngs and the worshipful chanting it's like oh boy the realms of men fell under the sway of morgoth and then saron couldn't see this coming they just can't wait can't wait to break out into chance and worship someone who they don't know at all at all we've never met him and they made him a poster and gave him a chance um this is fine he's going to glad you to lindon and I'm sure that will be fine to meet Gilgalid and I probably calibre more and I'm sure it'll be fine. I like that Theo tries it's very sweet that Theo tries to give the sword back

to Galadriel, she tells him to keep it. Their whole thing reminds me a lot of Aowen and Mary or maybe even Gandalf and Pippen just this sort of like she's like, we'll make a soldier of you yet kind of thing he calls her commander. It's really beautiful. How Brandon's watching all of it with a great deal of interest.

And then Theo declared straight to the strange to the Southlanders, sword is aloft. That's where we leave them. Troubling. Yeah. Last and not least,

Adar and Mordor, the Chiron changes from Southland to Mordor. Could have done about this. I really wish it said, I know, didn't, I didn't need it.

We got it, I thought. But like, and if they were going to do that, maybe they could have said it to say before door or no Mordor, just as a nod to your genius,

but they just went with straight Mordor. So, you have a character who could draw out, every single syllable for 10 minutes. Like if you do feel the need to say it or put it right there on the screen, let Otter whisper it to us and give us chills. Hardor.

I think it's totally fine that the episode ends with one group of people chanting for Hal Brand and the other group of people chanting for Adar. Hell, hail. Not at all worrying. Totally fine. At all. Oh, we got this great email from Ryan that I'm not going to read entirely, but just essentially Ryan was like, hey, I noticed the map was super different and rings of power, and I was fine with it.

But what is kind of cool is that after Mount Doom exploded and Waldrag used the bow air to drain the lake and all this sort of stuff. And the various cities that were on there were wiped out and the tower fell. He's like they put the map exactly where it should be now. Like they erased their footsteps. Completely brilliant, you know? They wiped all their changes off the map. Here we go. All right.

So that is, that's it for the deep dive. Just a swift two hours. Lots of the juts of Easter eggs and references. There were a ton in this episode. Pick one favorite one, Mallory. Oh, pity's sake, easily. There were a lot of great ones, but that was just like a delight, an absolute delight. What about you?

I'm going to go with juicy sweet. Yeah. Also wonderful. Actually, to be really honest to you, it's Galadryl and Theo under the tree hiding from the orcs, the Uruk. But that was pretty great. All right, so this is Ring 2. Conspiracy en masse or Weekly Who's That Guy, Best Thoughts and Guess is. So get out of here.

You don't want to hear us talk about what we're about to talk about. Halbrand's going to Lyndon, Mallory. I'm concerned. Joanna, I'm concerned. I am concerned. How about you? While a bunch of people were like, how exactly is how about it's supposed to be sour on? If he still has to like seduce Calibor and Gil Gallet, well, all it took was a massive wound in his side.

Did he do that to himself? Like, if he is sour on. By the way, no one saw him suffer that wound. We just get this story about who he was discovered by the Southlanders on the side of the road with this festering wound. suspicious. He's once again also like ringed in fire on his sickbed, just surrounded by little eyes of flaming candles. Yep. We got a ton of emails from people pointing out that like, you know, we flipped our lid about the bind language from Hallibrand in last week's episode. A bunch of people pointed out that in episode two when Galadryl and Hallibirn are trying to

survive the storm on the raft. She says, bind yourself to me. So the binding goes. into a sex dungeon immediately. What do you think they're safe for it would be? Ourok. Okay. Adam, a email from Adam was a great sort of TV literacy reason why this has to be Halibrand here, right? Okay.

So he says the reason, basically I believe Halibran is Sauron, is because of that little moment when Adar asked Halibran, who are you? Who are you? As he is walking out of the room. Hallibrand pauses but doesn't answer and walks out. The showrunners are heavily leaning into the question of Halperin's identity, as we all are. And this moment means that his identity is something that can be revealed. And this is why he can't be the witch king or the king of the dead, as I've seen online.

The witch king is not an identity that can be revealed. Rather, it's something that someone will become. The witch king is a human king that will be corrupted by a ring of power. But his identity before that is not significant. So, like, if Hallibor was like, my name is Roger. We're like, Roger, no. King Roger becomes the witch king, you know? Okay.

So the end of this email reads, for the answer to Adar's question to have impact, it will have to be someone we've heard of that really leaves only one option that I'm aware of. It's Sauron. Have you out of blood? Or bust for me. Great email. On the Sauron front,

do you want to read these quotes that J.D. and Patrick gave to T.H.R. about the state of the Sauron speculation here? Sure. First of all, Google this cover if you haven't. iconic. Like genuinely and sincerely iconic. I want us to recreate this pose, Joe, for our next house of our team photo.

Who are you, J.D. or Patrick? I think you got to be J.D. J.D. is doing like a grand sort of flourish move. Patrick's doing like the thinking man face. I think I can do the like thinking man face, but I leave the flourish to you. Oh, God. Okay. Penciled me on the next time one of us is in the other city. We need to get you a great coat.

Oh, we just use the bathrobe. I was going to say we need to give you a great coat because you. JD is a great coat, but you can just use the bathroom. It's like a pale blue. Yeah, it'll work. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Quote, it would be very tempting to make the first season of this show, the Sauron show, capitalized. Very villain-centric, McKay says, the quote continues. But we wanted that level of evil and complexity of evil to emerge out of a world that you're invested in, not because evil is threatening it immediately. We wanted you to fall in love again with Middle Earth. We wanted you to understand and relate to the struggles that each of these characters are having before we test them in a way they've never been tested before.

It's another Tolkien thing where when a shadow spreads, which is part of what is happening in our show, it affects everyone's relationships, Payne says. Even Frodo and Sam, their best friends in all of Middle Earth, yet they started to mistrust each other because that's a manifest. station of that shadow. So having an audience suspect this person or that person could be saron is drawing them into that thing where the shadow is overcoming all of us and making us suspicious of each other. Yes. Love it. Brilliant. Yes. I mean, we know it's Halberin, but brilliant. Like great stuff from J.D. and Patrick. Oh, God. Because a lot of people are like,

is, should this really be a mystery box show? And I love that J.D., especially here, is underlining the way in which our suspicion of Sauron is very much like when Frodo tells Sam to go home. Anyway, meanwhile, the cultists definitely really seem to think that the stranger is Sauron. So I don't agree with them, but they really seem to think that he's Sauron, right? Like, that's what... Here's my only question about that, because I think that has seemed probable. The way that they pluck the flower, like I found myself wondering, do they think that he's a threat? to Sauron, that he is a character, a magic wielder who is capable of pushing the shadow back of

keeping it at bay. Lame abode. Interesting. Very interesting interpretation. I love it. All right. Our next question is, how will Caliborne play into all of this? Mallory would like Calibor to-

Keep him on the sidelines. I'm sorry. Like, at least for a little while longer. Do we need him yet? He could show up in the finale. That feels awfully swift on the heels of her being like B. B.T. Dubbs. I have a husband. But I do think him showing up at some point to sort of like spoil her fling, whether or not she follows through with it in Halibrand or not.

But like, spoil this foundational thing that she's bringing or whatever. It's classic Caliborne. What a drip movie. from a drip guy, a drip king, Caliborne. However, we should say that Caliborne, like, he fights the sack of Aregian when Sauron comes to take Aragian. Caliborne fights in that. He narrowly escapes with Elrond.

So, like, you know, him showing up to get out of there with Elrond feels important. Later, I love this. I've forgotten this, that later, the reason that Galadriel and Caliborne moved to Laughan is because the Necromancer has settled in Merkwood, which is ripe by Laughlorian. So, like, even their decision to settle in Laflorian is connected to Sauron. Like, Galadryl constantly making moves and reaction to Sauron. Very interesting. Hard to shake an ex sometimes.

Yeah. What if you said to Adam, hey, my ex-boyfriend has moved in to Mesa Verde. Can we move? I don't know. I just made up a place that sounded like it. in Southern California. He probably wouldn't care if the reverse unfolded. I would file for divorce.

Great. Love a double standard. The last thing I'll say here is this is in Ring 2 because I guess we're kind of, I don't know. What belongs in Ring 2 is a constant question for us. But we got this great email from Nick from the Keynotes podcast about the musical theme that has been cropping up for Calibrand Borr and then also for the Mithrail.

Yeah. This is tremendous. Yeah. So there's this little, and I went back and listened and it's true, all of it. There's a little musical motif

we hear. The Jedi were real. Oh, my God. There's a little musical motif that plays when Calabrimo first shows up in Lyndon. Basically, like, what he's talking about is,

you know, his grandfather. Anyway, Nick wrote, Bear McCurry said there's a theme developing for the One Ring and or the Ring. of power themselves and I'm pretty confident this is it. It's possible we're hearing it in its infancy and it will grow to something more big and memorable. I think right now it's being used as a sort of seduction slash ambition theme. The dwarves delving to greedily,

Kel Brimbor wanted to be like his grandfather, the same kind of instincts that will lead to the manipulation of the rings. I love this. Love a musical clue. So thanks to Nick. You think that nugget of me thrill is going right in the forge? Oh yeah. That's a if ever I saw it. Has to be. That's just enough for a ring, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it could be enough for two. I don't know. Maybe you could stretch it. Nenya, your business. Three, maybe? I don't know. All right.

Last but not least, we're diving into the Forbidden Pool, the third ring, the book reader, spoiler section. I just want to talk about Duren for a second because essentially what we know that they're doing is kind of collapsing a bunch of durins from the second age into one Duren here.

So there's the Duren. that strikes up the rare friendship with the elves of Aregian. It seems like King Duren's going to die and that Prince Dorn is going to become king and is going to make some decisions that maybe he shouldn't, right? But one of them is this alliance of elves and dwarves.

We get the doors of Duren that Kellebrimbor will build as a mark of their friendships, speak friend and enter. Like, that's going to be part of it. Caliborne the Elven Smith gave Duren the first of the seven rings of the dwarves which does not go well in the end

but what I do love about this during the third During the third is the one that helps Elrond escape and establish a refuge so I love this idea that like Elron I guess along with Caliborne be here at this time like that Dura is the one who helps them survive and escape you know later

Duren the 6th is the Duren that delves too greedily and too deep and the monster, the Balrog Duren's Bain. And then his son was killed and his grandson's the one who gets them out of there. But anyway, do you think that this is all going to be our one guy Duren here?

I don't know, that was my question for you. Because how much is the timeline going to compress? Because on the one hand, it's like, I don't know that it makes sense to show us this ballrog and wait and then have it not turn Moria from a mine into a tomb for many Durans down the road. They call it a mine. Yeah, this is a Chekhov's Durin's pain, right? Yeah. You can't show us this Balorahag and then not have it do it.

But that should technically happen in the third age. Right. It doesn't happen in the second age. I guess there could be a parallel then to what Satic says about the volcanic eruptions and this idea of cycles and things that erupt over time and then go dormant again. But I guess the question is like to what extent could something really consequential happen with that ballerog, given their ferocity and their strength and the might of their power? And then have everyone basically be like, it's cool to keep digging. That would be, I think that would that would be a stretch. Interesting.

Okay. Well, that's their Duren question. Bring it on. Like, how many Duren's is this one Duren? I mean, Owen Arthur, who plays Duren is doing an incredible job. And he can be, you know, all brands. One brand is all brands. One Duran is all Duran. That's fine with me. It's just, I have questions. I don't think they can show us that Baurag and then never pull the trigger on the Baurag. I don't think they could do that. So I have a lot of questions. Last, last, last, last thing. We talked about Galadryl, that idea. Estelle, that idea of a higher faith, I think that's going to tie in really heavily to back to Numenor, right? Because that's the whole thing. The faith, the two sides of the fall of Numerar are the

Kingsmen and the faithful. And the faithful having this idea of a greater power and the Kingsmen challenging that idea of the greater power that you surrender yourself too. So I think that's a big part of the

groundwork that they're laying for that. Anything else you want to say about this excellent episode of television? Just that I'm, like, despondent. We only have one left. Burrath. I'm so sad. Oh, God. Just, like, throw me in the bottom of a burning building and leave me for dead like a

Seildor. I'm just devastated. Do you think we're going to get, I mean, a Sildor, I guess, here's, let me ask you a finale question here at the end of all things. I think there's a way, there's, there's, there's, possibly we don't see Duran and the Dwarves again this season. That did feel like a final note for their season one. Yeah.

The Ballerog. Yeah. Duran and Disa. I think the dwarves might not be in the final finale. That would be sad, but that seems right based on where that in it. I think it's possible we don't see a Rondeer, Bronwyn or Theo again. Like they're off to a new settlement. Yeah.

We don't need to check in with them. Meanwhile, in the woods, we could get Halbrand, Galadriel, the Harfoots, the cultists, the stranger. They're all headed in the... My geography, again, is not stellar, but I think they're all headed in a similar direction. Right. They could have been a collision course. A minute since we've been with Calibor and Gilgallet in, like, a meaningful way, which feels Kellebrambor in particular, I think we need in the finale.

At the very least, I think we're getting Elron and Galadryl in the same place. So are we getting our Saran reveal in the finale? I think we're going to have to know that he's Sauron by the finale. But the other characters don't. And maybe shouldn't. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe Galadryl is like, maybe Galadry gets a spidey sense of like, whoa, or something like that.

Because again, according to the lore, like she and Gil Gallad were the first to be like, uh-uh. Not this guy. So she brings him the very wind, right? That's right. Blows him back into Lyndon. Wait. When you say blows him. Okay.

Okay. I know you're quoting one of the most beautiful lines of the show, but I'm sorry, I just couldn't help it. Maybe we don't see them on the road at all, and then you can just go to A.O.3 and enjoy all the fan fiction of what happens. with Galadriel and Halberne on the road to Lyndon. But if we see Halperin interact with Calibrimbor at all and is like, guess what? I'm a really good Smith. I mean, that's all I need for him to be like Galadryl knows. I'm great at smithing.

You need some smith. I heard you need some smithing on Calibrimbor. Anyway, that's it. We did it. I'm really excited for the finale. cannot wait. I think it's going to be incredible. Thanks as always to Carla Sheriboga for putting up with us

and for backing my campaign to get Elrana Duran and Durrant to kiss. Thanks to our Jen and Ramcapul for his additional production work on this and everything else that he does. Come back. Sunday for Talk the Thrones. Tuesday for the Deep Dive into House of the Dragon. Wednesday for the Midnight Boys Pee-Poo on Andoram.

Thursday for Ben Lindberg on She-Hulk. I heard Daredevil's back. I'm excited. I haven't seen it yet. And we'll be back ourselves for the finale at the end of the next week. And thank you so much for listening. And bye.

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