House of R - 'The Rings of Power' Episode 8 Deep Dive. Plus, Showrunners J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay

Episode Date: October 15, 2022

Joanna and Mal are back in Middle-earth to talk about the Season 1 finale of 'The Rings of Power.’ They start by discussing their overall impressions of the episode (1:22). Then, they go for a Helm's-Deep deep dive into the episode to break down all the details, character moments, and major reveals (7:11). Then, they look ahead and talk about what could come next season (2:07:42). Later, Joanna is joined by ‘The Rings of Power’ showrunners, J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay to discuss making the show as well as the character reveal in the finale (2:24:21)! If you would like to email Mal and Joanna about the show, you can reach them at [e-mail].   Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Addition Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salik, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to Power Pot pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tramphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tramphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject trumphia, proper training is required.

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No matter the perils awaiting us on the way. Your sounds to be like an adventure. Alone, it's just a journey. No adventures. He must be shared. Welcome into the ringer verse, rings of power verse, your nexus, podcast, feed for all things fandom. I'm Joanna Robinson, and joining me today. the nori to my poppy and I promise you she goes on a big adventure I'm going with her

it's Mallory Rubin oh Joe some co-host I am here you're heading it to the big beyond and I haven't taught you a blooming thing yeah we're it's Harfoot city over here as you can tell us isn't it always as we gathered to discuss the rings of power finale season one finale we have a very special treat for you today. This podcast is coming out a little later, partially because Amazon and their screener policies around this, and then partially because we've got a fun little interview at the end of this episode with the showrunners, J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay.

I'm not very powerful. Yeah, so JD and Patrick are going to join us at the end of the podcast. unfortunately, like devastatingly, I had to do this without Mallory. But we've all promised each other that like all four of us will talk for season two. So that's a promise from us to you. What a wonderful interview. Cannot wait for everybody to hear it. Cannot wait to chat again in season two and beyond.

Okay. I love it. For programming reminders. Yes. Yes. Okay, so this is our last Rings of Power episode for a while. Very sad. I don't want to hear that or think about it. Yeah, you would like crushed.

Sunday, we'll try to revive our spirits by talking to Chris Ryan about a truly extraordinary episode of House of the Dragon on Talk of Thrones. Tuesday, Mallory and I will be diving deep on that very same episode. We have a lot of questions about it. Can't wait to talk about it. So that's Tuesday, Wednesday. The Midnight Boys, Poo-Poo-Poo! We're back to talk about Andor and or whatever else they want to talk about. And then guess what?

Then Mallory Rubin and I will show up to talk about Andor. We're headed over to the Andor beat. We are so excited. We've been chambre at the bit to get into this show, which we both love, but are like watching as fans. And now we get to watch it as... It's going to be a whole different experience. is honestly the back half of the season. So yeah, so that's coming next week as well.

And then if you haven't, please listen to our pal Ben Lindberg and the Mitten edition boys breaking down the extraordinary Sheeulk finale. And again, because of content, McGettin, Mallory and I weren't able to cover that show either, but we both loved that finale. So, you know, sorry that we cannot cover every single thing. Would that we could? I think you know to reach us at Havas and Dragons at gml.com. I think I've already received several emails this morning for people being like,

sorry, I called you dumb for your Sauron theory. Thanks. Keep him coming. Feels good. Um, um, um, but Malhouse can folks make sure they're up to date on everything we're doing on this feed?

Oh, well, for one, I'd say follow the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And also follow the ringerverse on the social media. a platform of your choosing. We're everywhere. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We're on TikTok. So follow the pod. Follow the social handles. Send the emails at hobbits of dragons at gmail.com. Then you're set. Sounds great. What a plan. All right. As for usually,

we've got a little spoiler warning to hit you up top here. And as always, it's a little complicated. It's a little different this week. Here's how it's going to go. We're still doing three rings this week, right? Three rings for Alvin Kings under the sky. Ring one is this talking about this episode and this season with the knowledge that we rewatch the Peter Jackson films every year and also sometimes reread the books. So all of that knowledge will be in the soup there. Most of our ring two stuff, our theories and speculation stuff, is going to be pulled up into ring one because got a lot of reveals, interesting reveals in this episode. So a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about in Ring 1 this week.

That's really fun because Ring 2 is really a cool place to be. And if you hadn't been, you might want to go back and listen. Really fun times there. Ring 2 today, though, we'll be talking about some like forward-looking season 2 and beyond stuff, some breadcrumbs that are laid in this episode for that. And then Ring 3 is what I'm calling the interview that we have with JD and Patrick. That's Ring 3. So there you go. One, two, three. Easy, peasy. Anything else, Mallory, before we start? Each of those rings has been carefully and not at all hurriedly or perhaps recklessly forged with a perfectly blended alloy of various oars and gemstones. So join us.

Yeah, we melted down our very personal, you know, precious heirloom daggers to bring you this content. All right, let's start as we always do with a long-expected party, our opening snapshot. this episode, this finale is called Alloyd. We'll talk about the meaning of that a little later on is written by Jennifer Hutchison. J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay ever heard of them and directed by Wayne Jayep, who's directed a bunch of episodes this season. So we're going to start as we often do, just sort of like general temperature taking Mallory Rubin. How did you feel about this episode of television? I liked it. I enjoyed it. Some parts of it worked a lot better for me than other parts there were stretches of the finale and certain character arcs and and concluding or key

culminations of certain storylines and share journeys that I thought were absolutely thrilling. I loved so much of what we finally got to watch with our pals. Pal and gal. That was just a real treat. obviously a lot of delightfully moving and emotional parting and sorrow and somber but also hopeful moments in Harfootland. You know, I'm probably less attached to the cultists than I am to some of the other figures of the story as one example. But on the whole, I not only enjoyed the finale, but as you know, really enjoyed the season of TV and thought that the finale was a fitting, an appropriate conclusion to this first season and a nice setup, a really nice setup for season

two and beyond. So it leaves me incredibly excited for where we're going to pick up this story for Sauron reasons and others. How about you? Yeah, I mean, guttural sobs with the Hartfoot storyline, like, just out of control sobbing. It's emotional. Also, just like, giddily, like, laughing and clapping at the reveals of certain things. You and I shared some text messages about that. And then, yeah, and then some stuff that felt oddly, like, rushed and slow. We're going to talk about all of that. But we got an email from a listener that I thought sort of encompassed some of my feelings about the pacing of the episode. Finley wrote, I was on the whole pretty happy with the finale in that I think it tied up the season's arcs well.

And I'm a big fan of the directions it's going in. However, it did feel really rushed to me and would have worked way better, out across two or three episodes, in my opinion. I think both Rings of Power and House the Dragon decide early on a point they wanted to reach by the end of season one for the former. It was Sauron saying hi. And for the latter, it's Vassar saying by. House the Dragon is able to tell the story of their big event across three episodes.

The King died in Episode 8, presumably, you know, blah, blah, House the Dragon. Rings of Power didn't have this luxury, and I really wish they did. Episode 8 and 9 could have been Hallibet and betting up with Kellibrimbor, while Galadry'll get Suss, episode nine, could have ended with him revealing himself to Galadriel. And the finale could have been her having the visions she had, grappling over what to do, and ultimately deciding to make the three elven rings. So I think that's the, I think you and I agree that sort of some of the Halbrand, or we can just call him Sauron, Sauron.

I guess so, yeah. I guess I don't Kelleber more. Forging of the Rings stuff, I would have been happy to have Hal Brand slash Sauron in Aregian for many episodes, like maybe even a whole season. So to have just a handful of scenes try to accomplish this sort of big moment, that's the part where I was sort of running to catch up. And I do know that at some point, this is an eight-episode season of television. I do know at some point it was going to be a 10-episode season of television.

And I know that some of the compression came early in the season, but I have to wonder if some of that compression comes here at the end as well. So that's, yeah, that's sort of where I am where I'm like mixed positive. on the finale, but like you, very excited for season two and some of the possibilities that are in front of us. I also want to shout an email from, we got from Dave before we get into everything. This is just like the nicest pronunciation correction I've ever got in my life because the email is titled The Question About Pronunciation.

But Dave does not have a question and that's okay. Dave wrote very much enjoying the pod, but I have to ask, how are you pronouncing Silmaril. I'm hearing simeril with an M, not Silmaril with an L. It's hard to be sure without rewriting over and over, which seems excessive, but I'm with you and Gilgallad for sure. Thanks. So yeah, I, okay. Now, you know how everyone in their gay brother is saying, Negroni, Spalliato, with Prosecco in it, right? And Spalliato, Spalliato has a G in it, But it's that Italian, like, G.L. It's a tough sound to master.

So a lot of people are like Spagliato is sort of how they're saying it. That's fine. Similar, I have a trouble with the L.M. Combination in Silmaril, I've always had this problem with the Silmarillion. I don't know why, but I will work on it. Thank you, Dave, for your polite correction. I support you. Silmaril.

Simmeralian, just simmer. I don't know. Sounds better to me. Okay, but it's wrong. So that's the point. Okay. Let's go into the deep dive. Healdon's deep. Deep dive in episode eight. We're just going to start off. I mean, like, let's just be clear. Mallory and I liked this episode, but it's always going to be a tough sell for us if Duren and Elron are not flirting in an episode. So no Duran, no Dura, no Disa, no Rond, no Bronwyn, no Theo, no Balrog, no King, you know, like. And these are, these are something. things we were wondering about last week.

Did we see, like it felt like they put a little tie in those timeline. Did you, did you miss them in this episode? Did you need everything to be here? Or do you like the way they sort of tied up some things a little early so that we could focus on others here? I guess both. Because I think, like, if every character set had been present in the finale, then what that, that, what you were accurately describing earlier, which I agree with, which is the

sense of, on the one hand, knowing what we're moving toward with the forging and anticipating it, but also feeling like we're hurrying inside of one episode through some key steps there would have, I think, maybe been exacerbated even further. However, and also, I think we agreed that last week, especially, you know, everything we got not only with Elron and Duren, but Big D and Little D the people are with you, Mallory. I think I have to let you have that one. Big D and Little D it is. You'll never win the Apple debate with me, but you can have this one. Let me have some Big D Come on. Save some little deep for the rest of us, man.

And the conversation with Disa and Dern in particular felt, as you noted at the time, conclusive inside of this season is like a final note for their opening arc. However, there have been moments across the whole season where I've missed many different characters. Oh, we didn't have our hard food fix here. We didn't have our Elron fix here. I'm always like longing for the time with our pals. This confirmed for me that Dern is my absolute favorite. I just really, really, really enjoy every single scene that Dern the Fourth is in.

And in part because of the mix of characters and everything that is at play in those conversations. So I look forward to reuniting with him, hopefully late in 2023. I'm out on this 2024 talk. I can't. I'm just not patient enough. I can't wait. I mean, I will, but I'd rather not.

Yeah, it's devastating, honestly, to contemplate. To go through an entire year without more rings of power now that this has been introduced in our lives? How can we possibly? So TikTok, J.Di and Patrick, please premiere within a year, even though you haven't I think finished writing the next season yet. So let's go to Numeru, which has for me throughout, despite my fondness for certain characters, felt like the least essential plot. It just felt sort of like detached from everything. though I guess you could say the same thing about the Harfuss. Would you have felt differently if Allendial and Muriel had fucked on a boat in this episode?

I know that's not where we were supposed to start. Great question. But what would have changed how you felt? 100% on board for that. Listen, boat sex, I love. It's great. To be clear, I mean, when I see it on TV. Are you referring to L Boat Sex?

John and Danis? John and Danny, you know, it worked fine for them, Joe. Everything went well after that. Why not? Cate and Leo. Yeah, famously. Sex and the boat is a great idea. Yeah, you and I were both on the same page about the elbow sex.

Real vibes. Yeah. Allendea, Miriel. I'm into it, honestly. I ship it whether or not it's on a ship. But in Numerator proper, right? That's in the harbor. Back on land.

Tar Palantir, who forgot to watch House of the Dragon this week. and so learned nothing from the death of King Miseris. Thought he was talking to his daughter as he was dying. Classic dying king move on our fantasy shows this week. We've all been there. You know, relatable content genuinely. So we have Yari in here. It's a very like, it's a kind of labored premise to get her alone in the room with the king.

but I buy it and they sort of tried to tie it into Farazan's accession with immortality. This is a thing that he's talking about. So they're building a tomb, a monument to the king. And he says it will be our duty to forge for him a tomb, granting him the immortality in stone that no man, not even a king can attain in life. There's not a hint of longing in his voice as he's saying it, so I'm sure there's nothing to worry about here. Super normal ideas about mortality coming in waves off of Farazan, right? Okay. So we have Yari in here, and she gets, you know, some babbling from the king.

And then he gets up, the last of his strength. And Joe, the last of his strength. Our guy is still spry. It took Viseras 15 minutes to walk the throne room. This guy, she just turned her back for, doing lunges, stretches. He's ready to get on his Peloton and go through a whole program. Is that how Peloton's work?

I don't know. Yes. He didn't make it up the stairs, though. Just opens the door for her. So he didn't get to go up the stairs and say, that big marvel thing, that's a thing I'm telling you to be cautious of. So instead we get, again, a totally normal, not an all ominous moment where Ellen Deal's daughter, like Aurora with the spindle is.

Sleeping Beauty is drawn towards the Palantir. What do you think is going on here? So interesting scene, interesting moment, interesting idea. We've not gotten much time with Tar Palantir across the season, but every minute that we have gotten has been like a fascinating table setter, not only plot-wise, but, you know, crucially thematically, I think that so much of what he's saying connects to a lot of our season-long discussion. and through lines on the pod.

What does it mean if you are able to glimpse something about the future? How does that get its hooks into you? Can you untether yourself from that knowledge? How does it shape your life? How does it shape your decision making? He said, you must go up, but do not do as I did. I looked for too long and now I cannot separate what is from what was, what was from what will be.

And as far as Harbingers go, there's always... A sign of portent. A sign important. A sign of portent. Trademark. Bam. Our faith. There's the personal messaging there, this way that you as the recipient of a warning like

that can see very clearly the truth of those words. And it made me think a little bit of like the... It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. Mirror of Eresed moment. Whether you're looking at... it's something that you long for or you're looking at something you fear, if you live in that vision, then you are not inherently not present in your life. And you are always going to be pulled in some other direction. But part of why I think this is so fascinating in the story,

in addition to the number of characters that it touches in the number of different ways visions have manifested is because of the way that it like runs in parallel to what we've been discussing about the idea of faith, which also comes up in this episode, when you should put your trust in something in the future and also this idea of certainty and how that has manifested for some of these characters, trust, this sense that there's a choosing that has unfolded and a course that must be followed. So I think that all of these are entwined, even though they're also all inherently specific to different slivers of a emotional or spiritual experience. So I like this moment, even though it was passing and quick. How about you? Yeah, what Tyra Palantir says

is something that Miriel and Galadryal language that they used earlier talking of the Palantir, which comes directly from the mirror of Galadryl chapter in fellowship, right? What things that are, things that

may yet be, may yet come to pass, etc. And I think, you know, we're obviously going to talk about I love that you brought up the mirror of Ars said because I kept thinking about that as I was doing these notes and thinking about the mirror of Galadriel and, like, wondering, I really want to reread that chapter because just wondering how much, you know,

J.K. Rowling is pulling from the mirror of Galadriel chapter in order to write that. We know she pulled plenty from Tolkien. But, yeah, so Iyarion is such an interesting case because, as we've noted before, she's not a book character. And so we don't know what her future is. So she's a real wild card. We're going to talk later about some blank spots on the map that they might journey to in season two. and she's a blank spot on the character map.

She is, you know, her story and Kamen, which is Farazan's son, like, they are real question marks. We don't know. We know the, we know where Allendeel is heading. We know where Isielder's heading. We know where Muriel's heading. We know where Farazan's heading. But we don't know where these kids are heading or Valendil, for that matter. And so you flagged before some things that Ariane has said that has made you nervous for her future.

So. Yeah. I'm on guard with the arian. I do want to shout out one thing about the black sails in the harbor, which as far as I know is probably a historical thing. But I always think of the Greek myth of Theseus when Theseus goes off on his adventure and he tells his father of the king, Aegeas, that like when he comes back, if people are, if he's dead, they will there will be black sails and if they're alive, there'll be white sails. and he kind of forgot to switch the sails. And then his father throws himself into the sea and it's forever called the EGNC. So that's what I think of when I think of Black Sails in the Harbor, meaning death.

I thought that was a really like beautiful moment and a beautiful moment for Elendial to see something that Muriel can't. And we've talked about Muriel as like this sort of blind profit figure potentially. but this notion that, you know, she and Ellen Dela, other than us just screaming, like, have sex on a boat at them, right? They have this interesting, like, who's carrying you conversation, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who has you?

And so it's like, I don't know, I like that dynamic that they're setting up potentially between them as, as, you know, someone that she needs. someone that she, like, and then what she can provide for him. So, agreed. And he very quickly gets over whatever doubts he had at the end of last episode. Is that your interpretation as well, that, like, we saw him lose his faith, just like he lost his son and forgot to go look for him and Mortor. And then now he's like, JK, I'm back on Team Elf. I'm a believer.

Is that your read on what we saw him? Yeah. You know, he needed a little pep talk. And I think that while this journey through his emotional states and his state of doubt and faith happened quickly, I think that it worked for me because it adhered to this idea of fellowship, like what you're just describing, which is this very organic evolving bond and trust between them, the shorthand between them, this idea that maybe they can be there as a support, for each other in a way that very few understand or could provide is the thing that sparks this conversation about the faithful and calling back to this prior exchange about his name and what it means and the additional meaning of Elf Friend. And this conversation that they have here where Muriel says, my father once told me that

the way of the faithful is committing to pay the price, even if the cost cannot be known and trusting in the end, it will be worth it. It made me think a little bit about the conversation that we discussed last week between Galadriel and Theo and like how difficult it is for a character like Theo to hear a character like Galadriel say, trust that what just happened to your home and everything you've ever known might be part of some larger design. But this call to this idea of the faithful and that history and that root. And what that means for Alendial and his family and his personal relationship to Numenor and the elves and that shared history and then division sparks something in him, right? It reignites the commitment, the commitment to traveling that journey. And then if it's a shared journey, taking and having that adventure in the first place, he says we have little choice then. But to keep serving.

And I, for one, will see to it that we make the end worth the price. And it made me think, it made me think of a couple. we've talked about both of these passages before more than once over the course of the season. Not surprisingly, there's such central ideas. But it made me think of both of these things. It made me think of the moment that we discussed previously with Elron and this idea of going as free companions. And the challenge from Gimley, faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens, right? And like that was Elendiel for a moment, as real as that grief and sorrow was.

That's still what was happening. It was an abandonment in his heart, even for a moment of that mission and that shared pursuit. Maybe, said Elrond, but let him not vow to walk in the dark who has not seen the nightfall. And, like, carrying that grace inside of you for other people who are experiencing that doubt and that setback, and then helping them find their way forward if it's right for them because you're finding that way forward together. So I liked it for that. And then, of course, the iconic, all-timer, Pantheon, I wish it need not have happened in my time, said, Frodo, so do I, said Gandalf, and so do all who live to see such times, but that is not

for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. And Muriel and Elendiel, despite all of the different polls on their allegiance and their pursuits, are two characters who are making that choice for themselves and together right now. And I think that idea of sacrifices will come up again, obviously, very clearly in the collateral storyline, but I think it's useful for us to, as we continue to try to understand Tolkien's idea of morality, what does good mean, which is a central preoccupation of this episode, I think it's really useful to sort through the characters and see who is willing to make a sacrifice for some greater good and who isn't. And also, what is that greater good?

do you have a keen understanding of it? Or are you headed down the wrong path? Because we're going to, Duren's going to come up again for me a little bit later. And when it comes to like ends and meetings, right? And justifying them and what that all means until the king. So, all right, anything else we want to say about Elbowt sex couple before we roll on? I don't think so. Can't wait to be back with them again in season two.

Hopefully sprawled out on one of those yachts with like a nice, nice, nice hat. hammock in the front. You know, you see him on Bachelor in Paradise a lot. Sure. Let's get one of those in the mix. Okay. No? They had those in Numenor in the second age.

Surely. Oh, I guarantee you the Numenorians know about a hammock. They have some pleasure yachts, no doubt. All right. Let's talk about a Merch. Pleasure barge. Oh, yeah, a barge. You love a pleasure barge.

I do love a pleasure barge. I know this about you. Okay, but like hopefully on a pleasure barge, there is some sort of like, I think the word I want is pagoda situation and then like a lot of cushions strewn about, right? Absolutely. That's what puts a pleasure in a barge is you got to have many a cushion. Cushions all the way down.

All right. Over in Merckwood Forest, I presume that's where we are. It's very, it's very endore. It's very northern California. The ferns are very wet. We catch up with the hardfoot. It's, this is the sequence I probably had the most trouble with, but we're going to drill in on some things that I really loved. So the stranger is looking at his red apple.

Should be a granny Smith, but it's some sort of red apple. And what it makes me think of is like, you know, it is a gift. Like this is the gift that Norie gave him in an episode where gift. is a tainted kind of concept and word later on, this idea of this very pure gift. And like, she gave that apple to him. When their orchard was like burned, they didn't have a ton of, she gave him like one of their last apples, you know, and this is just this very beautiful, pure act of friendship. And it's an item as like other characters will later cling to rings and stuff like that.

it is an item that he is clinging to to anchor himself in the goodness and in her belief in him. Why are you smirking at me right now? I just just the way you're saying it is a gift now. I'm just like seeing you as the board the board the meme in my Zoom, my Zoom box here, which I love. And it's it's great. And I'm happy it happened. I'm also just thinking of all the tweets we've gotten from people about apples. over the last week.

So there's a lot of Apple opinions on the internet. And it's like, you can't wait until we talk about, I don't know, stone fruit at some point in the future. What'll happen then? I'm not going to read any of them, but thank you for all your Apple emails.

We got so many Apple recipes from people. Oh. One of them involves, one of them was pro me, but also pro you. And it said, Joanna is right that Granny Smith are delicious. But Mallory is right

that Granny Smith are good ingredients for recipes. So it was great. Randy Smith's Manchago cheese and then it's like tossed in like oil and garlic. And I was like, what? You know, I've had like, Evan. Stunnen. I've had cheese and apples before, but never like in a sort of garlic mirror. Anyway, I mean, I that is the recipe I will be trying.

Thank you so much for sending it. That sounds great. I would like to just clarify for the record that I did not say Granny Smith apples are bad. In fact, I said that they are quite tasty in certain presentations and form. but to say it is your favorite apple. Anyway, I think we can agree. Carlos sent us a comment from someone. I was wondering why this pod was 15 minutes longer than usual,

but then I realized it was just a 15-minute conversation about apples, Alzheimer. Apples and pleasure barges. So funny. For the ring of hers. Yeah. Oh, boy. Joe, in terms of your wonderful and very astute point about the apple and its manifestation

in this episode and the way it is this anchor, you know, the idea of the apple is the forbidden fruit. It makes me think of what you said a few minutes ago about choosing goodness, right? It is like this in your literal hand, a reminder and a representation of the choice that you get to make in that moment and then always have to keep making to pull yourself into the light and out of the darkness. So a very effective symbol here at the end. Not the end of all things, but the end of this season of TV. So the cult is themselves. Yeah. I think you, what were you comparing to weathertop before? It was the cultist last week, right?

I think it was when we were breaking down. Oh, you were reading the email about the lyrics to Wandering Day. Oh, right, right, wandering day. Okay. But we get a direct weathertop reference here. Do you want to break it down what we see here? Well, now you're going to make me think of stewed tomatoes. I told you already that as soon as somebody mentions Weathertop, I think of Stude Tompottos. I think of Stude Tompottos. I think of Stude Tompottos. I think of Stude Tompottos. I think of. Matos. Now we're just back on, now we're back on food. So easily distracted now. Friday afternoon. I am hungry. We'll say that. It's just in the interest of full disclosure. I probably should have had a snack before we started. So the first thing, and we don't need to linger on this for long, but, you know, you mentioned earlier like, hey, people head back, listen to to ring to, listen to all the

things that Joe was right about. You should do it. That's not what I said, to be clear. But it's true. Let the record state that we were right to be. alarmed by the plucking of the hair. Because it turns out this is basically cultist polyjuice potion. Yep. Yep. It's very tough. This freaked me out.

Like something about the... So scary. Yeah. Not only the changing of the eyes with fake Nori to lure the stranger in, but the movement of the body, there was like something very serpentine and unsettling

about it. I think that everything that happened with the cultists and this pursuit. I mean, the first thing is that we do learn. We were debating, do they think that this is Sauron? I was wondering if maybe they thought it was a threat to thwarting Sauron or that power. No, they think that the stranger is Sauron. That's what's happening here.

And guess what he's not? Because it's Hal Brown. But it sparks this very interesting journey of discovery. on the wizard front and this I think my favorite part because what I was saying earlier the stuff with the cultists didn't work as much for me

I think it's because we are so invested in this episode and other on the villain front other characters and revealing this face of evil as we've been talking about all season and we just have not spent much time with these characters and so they're not just simply not as compelling to us

or engaging for us as figures for long stretches of time. That said, they were effective at unlocking. Not only, super scary. Not only this question of, oh, but boy, I, the stranger, I'm grappling with whether I am a threat, whether I am a source of peril or can be a source of goodness. I'm staring a peril into the face, how clarifying that is. They also take one of his hairs and impersonate him, so that was also unsettling.

A lot of a lot of sorcery, a lot of magic, that play here. A lot of cloak work. Damon Targaryen would be so. proud. Yeah, a lot of cloakwork, a lot of flame throwing action. You mentioned Weathertop and the visuals when the stranger is awoken, staff in hand. Very handy. If you're trying to remember your identity as a wizard, the visuals like shifting into that unseen world imagery like we did with the ring wraiths when Frodo is stabbed on Weathertop. That was really cool. And then there's like a moth transferment. which of course is something that we associate with Gandalf. Gandalf ever heard of them.

I love, yeah, the effect of making them look like the ring race on weather top, which is one of my favorite moments from the Peter Jackson films, by the way, when you see the decayed kings that these men once were, I think that's incredible. But I like that in a show where we talk about violence and not violence, this idea that like a wizard figure would dissolve this threat into a bunch of moths, I thought was a really cool moment rather than like them dying screaming or something like that. They might have screamed actually as they turned in moths, but that's okay. You can argue that it's a crueler in some ways. To become a moth? Keeping your very essence trapped inside of another form for all of time.

Then you get to moth around Middle Earth. I mean, that sounds really pleasant to me. Moth around the Earth. Oh, boy. We got this great email from our listener, Will, who wrote, last week we talked about Disa and, like, I was reminded of Lady Macbeth when Disa was talking to Doren. This week, Will writes and he says, it's not entirely clear to me, but the cult of us all appear to be female. I think, for the record, at least one of them is non-binary, but, you know, point taken. Which reminds me of the weird sisters in Macbeth, which are the three witches, right, in Macbeth. If this is the showrunner's intent, I find this show invention fascinating because it potentially,

creates another tie between Tolkien and Macbeth. I think Tolkien includes several allusions to Macbeth and Lord of the Rings, specifically. One, the Witch King's false taunt to Aowen, which leads to his downfall, no man can kill me, which parallels Macbeth's downfall and McDuff. No man, bored from women can kill me. And two, the Horan's is an actual moving forest compared to the moving Burnham Wood, which covers the Loyalty's Army approach in the ultimate battle against Macbeth. So like a force that moves and no man from woman born,

which are a couple of the weird sister prophecies from Macbeth. I've always loved that A.O. and Macbeth connection I had never really put together the moving forest connection, but I love that to you. And so this idea that like Disa and these like trio of cultist witches and stuff like that is another tie to me just speaks to, again, the showrunner. the level of attention they're paying to like the influences on Tolkien in addition to the specificity of Tolkien himself. Absolutely. Absolutely. Are you a big Macbeth fan at all?

I am. Yeah. Are you? Oh, I love me some Willie Shakes. Oh my God. Let's talk about Shakespeare forever. Anyway. Of all the weird sister treatments I've ever seen in a production of Macbeth, I think what

they did in the Cohen treatment with Denzel Washington was extremely good and creepy, and I really recommend it. Okay. So we've already mentioned this idea of choosing goodness a couple times, and to be really transparent, we're kind of poaching from Janie and Patrick's conversation that we got some hints that that might be a good theme to lead it to. So I want to talk about this idea of the stranger when he says, I am good, like choosing to be good.

what the idea of like a constant choice on a path made me think of as this Sam quote that we've referenced many times in our discussion here where Sam says, I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of stories went out and looked for because they wanted them because they were exciting and life was a bit dull, a kind of sport, as you might say, but that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered or the ones that stay in the mine. folk seem to have just been landed to them. Usually their paths were laid that way, as you put it. And the stranger, this is Joanna talking, the stranger is going to talk about paths and laid later. But I expect they had a lot of chances like us of turning back, only they didn't.

If they had, we shouldn't know because they'd have been forgotten. So that choice you make to put one foot on front of the other on a path that's laid for you, which is a clear conversation that Norrie and the wizard a companion we'll have later. I just, I like that as directly engaging this idea of constantly choosing to be good.

I love it particularly inside of, not only this episode where three rings of power are forged, but inside of this story and this particular fictional universe where objects and the idea of evil contained or bound inside of objects is so central because of course

Joe, it makes me think of our guys, I bendu and one of our favorite quotes to reference, and that parallel here is, I think, really strong because when the stranger says, they showed me what I am. What I am. Not like they said my name, they said for Sauron then. Isstar what I am.

Like there's a, he's conveying a sense of essence there. They told me something definitive about who I am in my function in this universe, right? They showed me what I am. And Norie says, only you can show what you are. you choose by what you do. And Bendu, of course, said to Canaan, an object cannot make you good or evil, the temptation of power forbidden knowledge, even the desire to do good. That'll be relevant in this episode. Yeah. Can lead some down that path, but only you can change yourself.

I love that we've talked about that Bendu quote before. And it's a, it's a tremendous moment in, in Star Wars rebels. But I think I never thought how clearly that has... I mean, it's Star Wars, but it's... It has to have been influenced by Tolkien. Yeah. It's so Tolkien, right? So on this, like, subject of choosing to be good versus falling to evil, the...

I wanted to, like, have one of our little, like, Tolkien lore pauses to talk about the brothers, Boromere and Faramere, because for many different reasons, but when we're... maybe chief among them is with love and respect to the Jackson films that I love so much, they do book Faramir so dirty in that movie. That is like one of the biggest changes. I mean, Faramir still comes off as a good guy, but there's just a lot of drastic changes to his character that I think really diminish one of my favorite book characters.

So in terms of choosing a path or choosing. choosing to fall to temptation in pursuit of something good. There's this Faramir quote about Boromir, where he says, speaking of the ring, if it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minis Tirith and his own glory therein,

might desire such a thing be allured by it. Right? So the desire, Boromir's fall is so tragic because it comes from a desire to protect something that he cares about, right? Contrasting with what Faramir says about the ring where he says, I would not take this thing if it lay by the highway, not where Minishtirth falling in ruin and I alone could save her. So using the weapon of the dark lord for her good and my glory. So I love the Jackson films. Again, we love them, but the Jackson films makes the Boromere, Faramir binary more about like fathers and sons, which is a key important theme and like desire, you know, for glory or to be seen in your father's eyes, right? To show your quality, as they like to say.

And that's not what's driving Faramere in the book at all. it is this inherent difference of choice. Now, to be fair to Boramir, Boramir spends a lot more time around the ring than Faramir does when he makes his decision. But I don't know, like, have you ever, what are your thoughts around those two brothers, their decisions, how they're contrasted with each other?

I'm with you. I love the way that you highlighted that distinction there. And I think that one of the reasons it's an effective one for illuminating for us as readers, how you as an individual. think about the pull of the ring or the pull of power and what the ring represents in that respect more broadly. It's very effective when it's conveyed inside of a strong relationship and friendship and a duo like that. Like these aren't figures who are opposed, right?

These aren't people who are fighting against each other or trying to thwart each other in some respect. They are broadly and generally champions of each other and they find affections with each other and support for each other when that is actually lacking often in other areas of their life. And so for those choice then and the relationship to that choice to be so stark, I think it heightens it because they actually are so aligned. They're aligned. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. And I mean, we have to think about Doran in this context, right?

Because Doran – I always am thinking about that. Well, we talked about this last week. Like, Durran's desire to save his – I mean, like, Disa starts talking about glory in a way that's a little disturbing. But, like – In line. But, like, my own. But my The origin of this being

Duren's genuine desire to protect his friend Elrond That's heartbreaking That's sort of one of the purest goals With the potential to go wrong I think that we've seen so far in the story Because some of these other ones like The L's wanting to prolong their time

In Middle Earth or whatever that seems like A little bit more self-serving But for Duren it's like I want to do this for my friend But what and again, I think I want to keep talking about this idea of sacrifice versus making the wrong choice on the road because it can be hard to, you know, false lights, real lights. It's hard to tell the difference. Absolutely. I also, this isn't an email we got.

This was just like I was trolling around the Reddit boards as I do, the Tolkien fans' Reddit boards, trying to read up a little bit more on Faramere. And I got this great comment that I really loved. This Reddeter wrote, a major theme of Tolkien's is, quote-unquote, good people are good regardless of circumstances. I think it stems from Tolkien's Catholicism. In Tolkien's theology, people really fall into three categories. Those who understand redemption and try for it, making them good and trustworthy. The whole fellowship, including Boramir, who immediately regrets his sinful actions, fall under that category. Those who do not understand redemption and act selfishly making them wretched and pitiful, and that's Ghalom.

a defeated Saraman, Grima Wormtong. And those who understand redemption and rebel and rebel against it making them dark and evil Sarah and Morgoth. The first group should be trusted and loved. The second should be pitied and loved. And the third should be pitied and fought. And I really love that idea.

We talk a lot about pity, staying Bilbo's hand and stuff like that. And Halbrain's going to talk about redemption at the end and we can decide whether or not he actually buys what he is selling or not. But I just, I, I for one, and you'll hear Janie and Patrick talk about this, but I for one, when I first heard I am good as this sort of climactic line of this action sequence was like, I don't understand exactly what the depth of meaning is to this, because on its surface it feels so simple. But as our favorite well-coffed brother, you know, told us, right? Like simple things are, you know, sometimes the things you want to look out for. So anything else you want to say about this skirmish, this sort of like, uh. I guess, I mean, we, we can, we can hit this more in the Halbran chat later because as you just noted it, that that, that,

that Reddit comment really connects to everything that's going to come with the Sauron reveals. But that that idea of good people are good regardless of circumstances, it did make me think of one of the first things we hear in the entire show in that prologue, which is Galadriel saying nothing is evil in the beginning. Which is a quote about Sauron from the books, by the way. Right. And so like that's very top of mind, of course, as we watch this, this. penitent Sauron experience and think about that and parse that.

But I think also like... That's my favorite jam band, by the way. This is penitent Sauron experience. I once followed them on tour. They opened for fish and it was really good. So, yeah. I would buy merch. Absolutely.

Absolutely. The T-shirt with all the tour stops listed on the back and instead of pullet points, it's just evil eyes. And it's just like a reggae. Prune Merkwood Brickled brambles All right, yeah

But yeah, like there's something There's at once a consistency And I think an interesting Like inherent tension there Because there's something about Your eternal state And the state of like Again, your essence and your soul

How that is informed though By the choices you make And all of the different paths Or forks in the path Or bends in the river Where that can change And I think like the idea idea that your state is fixed and eternal is in some ways in, maybe not in conflict with,

but I guess in a conversation with the idea that it is, it is always inherently volatile and influenced because that's what it means to be alive. Speaking of being alive and also not being alive, we lose. Last week when I said we needed more main characters to die, I did not mean Sadok Burroughs for the record. It's unacceptable. Saddick takes a big wound that looks bad. And then he keeps fighting.

So I was like, oh, I guess it wasn't that bad. But he was just, adrenaline was pushing him through the battle because when it's over, he decides to sit and die. Our wizard pal is right there. And we know he can, I, okay, this is my, this is my, with love and respect, my Friday afternoon quarterbacking of this episode. I would just have our wizard pal passed out from the effort. And if he's passed out and Saddak is dying and he can't heal him, that's fine.

But he's right there while Saddick is going to come around dying. You know, you fought the mudhorn and you're tuckered out. You need a nap. Sleepy, you know. I feel like we've seen him pass out from efforts before. So, you know, that could have. solve that for me. But it was, that being said, the peaceful acceptance of death is a very Tolkienian, you know, so like, were the wizard not ambling into frame and that overhead shot of

Saddock just sitting there dying? I would have fewer questions. But he does, amble he does. But anyway, this is the moment that we like to thank our pal Brian Cogman, who came on at the beginning of the season to talk to us about this wonderful Gandalf quote about death. And I'm not going to do the Ian McKellen impression. I'm so sorry, you have to go listen to Brian do it, right? But Gandalf says, end. No, the journey doesn't end there. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The gray curtain, the gray rain curtain of this world rolls back and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it white shores and beyond a far. green country under a swift sunrise. So Saddick sits there and watches the sun come up as he, you know, takes his last breath, but also tells Goldie the misses will be waiting for, you know,

so when we talk about what does that far green country mean to you, that like when, when the rain curtain of this world rolls back and you see a far green country, I love this idea that like that far green country can look however it would look to you and to Sadak. it looks like, you know, his beloved departed wife is waiting for him. And that's beautiful. Lenny Henry is very emotional and wonderful in this departure. I agree completely. Have some notes on our guy, the stranger,

not offering a healing helping hand and was also deeply moved by the, the missus will be waiting for me. And of course, we talked about the ring around his neck, visible on his chest. And like, you know, that was a, that was a nice moment of closure there too. Like, maybe, maybe think a little bit of Luke and the presence of the sun there. Oh, the binary sunset.

Yeah. Saddick. I'll miss him. What a great character. Just wonderful. I'm so glad you invoked Luke in that moment because that's definitely the last time we're going to talk about the last Jedi in this podcast episode. It's not going to come up again.

I want to try so something I found out that I that was really interesting is that you know before Peter Pan was a book it was a stage play that J. and Barry put together and there's this great someone is like you know because everyone has examined everything Tolkien has ever written on a piece of paper ever they found this like old um I don't know journal entry I think that he wrote about seeing Peter Pan as a young man on the same. stage. And so if you think about the themes of Peter Pan and like the childlike wonder of the hobbits and the Harfoots and stuff like that, like you can tie that back into Peter Pan. But the Peter Pan line that I always think about is to die would be an awfully big adventure, right? And I always think about that when I think about this idea of like, is death a thing to be feared or is death a thing to sort of be interested in what comes next, that sort of thing, which brings us to adventures.

Joe to the well-organized mind. Let's but the next great adventure. I love it. I love it. So, adventures. Many partings. Norie and Stanger, the stranger, have a lovely conversation that we heard at the top of this episode

about adventures and journeys. Fellowship, friendship. Joe, this is really emotional. Like, really emotional. Not to just start sobbing. in the middle of our pod. But really, I was just like thinking about you and doing this with you and how wonderful it's been and what a gift it's been. I really was.

And like, you know, our pod in general, but like getting to talk about Lord the Rings is something we both love so much. And we love it when it's there just for us. That's the journey. But to get to share it with you was the adventure. And it was just like one of the joys of my life. It was so great. I feel exactly the same way. We've been talking again and again week by week about the fact that we're covering

House of the Dragon Rings of Power concurrently and like sort of what you and I have such a long history with Game of Thrones. It's like the bedrock of both of our careers essentially. And so there's a lot of joy in being back in that world that we're really familiar with. But this feels so special to me. And I'm really sad that it's ending for now because, like, this is something that we've built together, you and I. This is something that I, you and I both have a very strong, existed emotional attachment to. And I know we have emotional attachment to Thrones as well.

But, like, I feel so emotional about Tolkien. I first read Tolkien because of someone I fell in love with. I would, like, watch it, you know, go to the theater every year with my friends from college. I would rewatch it every year at Christmas with my friends throughout the years. Like this is a, this is a, like, a love language for me as Tolkien. So to get to show this with you and all the people who are listening, like, I understand that this has been a divisive show, but for me it is, and like, you know, as we've outlined, we've got our questions, comments, and concerns.

But, like, it is such an emotional text, I think because Tolkien is digging so profoundly into these elemental ideas of good and evil and faith and all that sort of stuff. And there's that sincerity. Right. And nothing is more sincere than what happens here with the, with the wizard, with the Harfoots, with these goodbyes and the adventures of and the contrast between a journey done alone and adventure, a podcast done together in fellowship. You don't have to like do what I like to do in word search the word adventure and the Hobbit to know that it comes up a million times. There's so many moments when Bilbo was talking about adventure. You can practically hear Martin Freeman say I'm going on an adventure. Like this is a cherished word for Tolkien.

No, he doesn't mind a journey either, an unexpected one. That's fine. But I love this Bilbo quote from The Hobbit where he says when he first meets Gandalf, right? And he says, dear me, not the Gandalf who was responsible are so. many quiet lads and lasses going off into the blue for mad adventures. Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores, bless me, life used to be quite interesting. I mean, used to upset things badly in these parts once upon a time.

I beg your pardon, but I had no idea you were still in business. It's always been kind of an iconic dunk right at the end there. I love it. Love it so much. Oh, I think my, um, my, my favorite. favorite adventure mention in The Hobbit comes really early because it's one of those, like, I'm a real sucker for an easy mark for a sentence or a paragraph that tells you what sort of story you're about to be in store for, but also leaves it completely open to your anticipation.

So I've always loved, this is about Baggins's, they never had any adventures or did anything unexpected. You could tell what a Baggins would say on any question without the bother of asking him. This is a story of how Abagans had an adventure and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbor's respect, but he gained, well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end. I just love that. He gained a ring that was totally chill and fine, no problem. I also think it's worthwhile thinking about the word adventure in the Joseph Campbell Heroes Journey sense. So you and I like talk about the hero's journey a lot, obviously, in our examinations of these stories.

But literally one of the steps in the Joseph Campbell Hero journey cycle is the call to adventure. That's the word to use, the call to adventure. And the example that people use about the call to adventure is usually either Gandalf knocking on Frodo or Bilbo's door or Obi-1 Canobee like taking Luke off planet. Like those are the two big examples of pop culture that people use. But it's, I'll just read this description, the call to adventure in case people don't spend time looking at the Joseph Campbell Heroes journey stages. The call to adventure sets the story rolling by disrupting the comfort of the hero's ordinary world presenting a challenge or quest that must be undertaken.

The call throws the ordinary world off balance and establishes the stakes involved if the challenge is rejected, often delivered by the Harold archetype. The call to adventure can take a multitude of forms. That's classic being Gandalf, Obi-1, Agrid and Doubledore, but also can be like a traumatic event, like what sets of stark kids loose in sort of in Westrose, etc. So I love that, like, when Norie's family pushes her out the door, a lovely contrast to everyone in Hobbiton being like,

we don't go on adventures, right? Her family. And this is a journey, of course, for Goldie especially, who has been like, don't go out there. You belong out there. Out there. Like, the ordinary world. And I think that that ordinary world idea is so important.

I think it's the larger pattern of what we've been dealing with in this season, because not in this interview, but elsewhere, Jady and Patrick have said that, like, Season one was sort of like getting viewers familiar with the world. And we've talked about the various like ceremonies and like, you know, rituals and traditions we've seen of new manure, of Casa Dune, of the Harfoots, I guess of the Southlanders, just mostly seems to involve mud, like all that sort of stuff, right? And the importance of that, the importance of like the earlier step on the Joseph Campbell Heroes journey. is being in the ordinary world and understanding what's at stake, right?

We've talked about it a lot. What are these people defending? What is worth defending about Kazadun? What is worth defending about Linden? What is worth defending about Numenor? So that when the fights start, we understand what's worth protecting. Luke, you're like, it's a moisture farm.

It doesn't seem that great. But, you know, that's why. So this is why I want to go back to Faramir first. second. Faramere says, I love this quote about Faramir because he's talking about Faramir is an accomplished soldier, but he's talking about what he views, how he views war. And he says, war must be while we defend our lives against a destroyer who will devour all. But I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend, the city of the men,

of Numenor, and I would have her love for her memory, her ancient tree, her beauty and her present wisdom, not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man old and wise. Again, book Fairmir done so dirty in the movies. He just says shit like this all the time, but like that idea of, I do not love the bright short for its sharpness or the arrow for its swiftness. I love the things that they protect and defend. And so it made sense for us to be with these lovely Harfoots for as long as we were this season so that we know as Poppy goes out into the wide world to have her adventure,

this is what she is off to protect and save. Oh, Joe, I love the hero's journey, as you know. I love a call to adventure. I love a refusal of the call. I love all of the steps. Oh, I, of course, you know, you noted with Goldie and even inside of this, this Harfoot family and inside of the season, the steps on their journey. And I loved that we got to hear some of that evoked here, like the call back to the river flowing, the call back to the sparrows. You know, Norie wanting to know, where do they learn their new songs?

And that this was the exact language that Goldie that her mother used to send her out into the world and to show, because it's not only that support and encouragement. It's a it's a deep understanding of the thing that Norie is longing for, the thing that she is craving and that she believes that she needs. And, you know, once again, that absolute chart top and banger, this wandering day was on my mind because of that beautiful line that we've discussed at length already, I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead. And that that for a lot of the Harfoots was not only a scary thing, but almost a sacriac. religious thing, a threat to the very center and core of their creed and their mantra and the way that they lived their lives and pursued the shared protection. And a collective embrace, like to not have to

be one person who is separating yourself from your community, but to feel that community around you, pushing you forward with encouragement and nurturement as you then pursue the thing that you need in your life was beautiful. And like I just, I love that all of those things can happen inside of the same thread of this story. I really thought that was wonderful. I was in tears at this part. Just I cried straight through it basically. We will miss

Sonic Burroughs forever. Lovely, lovely man. But that means a promotion for our babe Malva. This is a great moment to be us. For a long time Malva heads. However, I do have some concerns about the map reading. The world's biggest

Malva heads. Like, possibly it's us. It's us. It's us. Um, yeah, but in theory, Poppy will be there for her more on that at a second. But we're going to talk about that in a second. I like the only time I stopped crying was to be mad about this then when I went back to crying. So anyway, we, you mentioned, uh, your is Poppy Smeagel theory? One of my favorite all-time Mali Rumin theories. Yeah. We got this great email from Nicole who wrote. wrote, wasn't Smeagel from a Hobbit like people, yes, who lived around the Gladden Fields, which is close to Merkwood and the End doing. What if, what if the song Poppy sang was not just an intentional nod to Smeagel, but a reminder

that he came from a Hobbit like race and maybe we'll meet his grandmother, who was a very important person in her own right, per Gandalfan fellowship? Or have we met Smeagel's grand? My speculation theory is that Poppy, Norik, and Sadak, Well, RIP, this person didn't know SADEC died when they wrote this email. We'll somehow splinter off made with others and found what we know is a shire and other Harfits will stay in the south and create the colony that eventually gave a Smeagle. But hopefully Poppy and Noree will meet eligible young bachelors. I mean, Nori has got to be a forerunner of a took.

So is Poppy Smeagels grand? I mean, I'm here for this. This is delightful. Absolutely. Absolutely wonderful. And, you know, we've talked a lot about the way that the lore gets passed down, the lessons from Harfoot's past. So the idea that young Smeagle would one day hear from any of these characters about not taking a shit by the river in case you want to take a drink later, it's comforting. Let's, is that Largo's music I hear?

Let's Carlos Lee play us this clip from Largo, please. You know how hungry he gets. And an extra blanket in case he gets. Right. Let's see you. Some father. Here you're heading in the big beyond and I haven't taught you a blooming thing. No.

Sure you have. Always quench your fire, water and earth. Don't squat by a river. Never knowing you'll need a drink demonstrate a man. And a heartfoot without manners is as like to get far in life. As a square wheel. It was just in tall of it, father. Art wrenching.

So Dylan Smith is the actor who plays Largo. Stealth MVP of making me cry this season, honestly. Like, every time he gives a speech, I've been crying. So shout out to Largo. You better be in season two or I'll be mad because, listen, here's speaking of being mad. Poppy says goodbye to Nori and then Nori walks away and then Poppy does what can only be described as the Sam run, right? Like, I'm coming after you. right?

Yes. And then she doesn't go with Nori and I am absolutely I mean I'm not flumics

the same way I'm flummox about like why did Settuk die with a healer like 10 feet from him I'm just sort of like

I am sure that Patrick and J.D. have a plan I didn't ask him about this but I was just like mortally wounded by Poppy not going with Nori

it was deeply a beautiful moment. Norie gives a beautiful reason why they're having this parting of the ways. Because I think if we didn't, then we'd never learn anything new. But that's in response to Poppy saying, why does everyone I love the most

always have to go away? Well, the response could have been. Why don't you come with me? And then we can be together like Frodo and Sam will be one day. Like, let Malva figure out the brickle brambles. Poppy, come with me. Yeah.

You showed Melva how to turn around the map. Everything's fine now. My jaw was on the floor. I was sobbing because it's a beautiful moment between two, like, beautiful young women who just, like, have this beautiful friendship. You're my best friend in this white, wild world, you know? Like, it's so beautiful. And I was so mad at the same time. I was just like, go.

So listen, J.D. and Patrick, if you're listening to this right now, if you want to open up season two with Poppy just being like, JK, I'm coming. I would love that. I won't be mad. I won't say a thing. I'll just rejoice. Just hurrying through the high grass. Let's do it. Pack up a bag in a hurry.

Everyone's already huddled around to help. How long could it possibly take? Just a sack of snails and you're good to go, right? They already have snails. She doesn't even really have to pack. Some snail mix. You're good to go, right? Snail mix.

Delicious. Okay. So I've been saying the stranger and the wizard, and I think we did drop the G word, but this is when we're going to talk about, no worry on this wizard. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Who drops here in conversation. A classic Gandalfa follow your nose moment. So most of the internet has decided, as they did many, many moons ago, that this guy is definitely Gandalf. I'm not sure. How do you feel about it?

Mallory Rubin? So we already had a lot of supporting evidence, a lot of clues, some of them even just mannerisms. Of course, the color of his cloak, et cetera, the confirmation that he is a wizard

inside of this episode. I am open. I remain open to the blue possibility, certainly. always ready and willing to be convinced. However, I will say. You don't do always follow your nose unless it's canned out. What if he's,

what if he's two kin, Sam? You know what I mean? I mean, it's just a line. Like, I texted you. We each had a thing that we, a couple of, actually, we had the two same things that we shouted the line right before the character said it. We'll talk about the other soon. But this was one of them.

we're talking about the smell on the air. And it's like, follow your nose. Follow your nose. And then he says it. So maybe it's just because we are, it's a fun thing for the entire internet to think that this is canned off. But that's, that's where I am. How about you?

You're in team, you're team blue? I'm team. I don't know. I genuinely. And we'll talk about team blue in a second. But I will say like in terms of him saying the line. And actually at the end of the day, I think it might not matter. That's something we talk about.

But, like, we've had a bunch of characters on the show say lines that other characters have said elsewhere, right? Like Bronwyn dropping a sand line. Totally. It's just a signature. Maybe they learned it all in wizarding school. Maybe. Maybe Hogwarts in the sky. Yeah.

Hogwarts in the sky. Like, there's just, you know, follow your nose 101. Anyway, in the text, there are these two blue wizards that Tolkien was, like, forever sort of noodling with and never really figured out. And we'll talk about that more in ring too. But one thing we do know is that these two blue wizards who are unnamed or named, depending on what version of what you read, they go to the east, which is a run, which is where this wizard and nori are headed. That's where the blue wizards go.

So honestly, at the end of the day, I think it's fine if he's Gandalf. He's early for Gandalf. I don't really care. It's fine if he's Gandalf. And it's also fine to me if he's one of the blue. wizards. But like, obviously they're wanting to make you think that he is very Gandalfy in nature. So. And like from the beginning, we've, we've thought we're getting at least a Frodo. And we thought Sam and Gandalf dynamic, you know what I mean? So, okay. I think else you want to say

about the Hartfoots as we bit them farewell until the end of 2023, which is definitely when we are getting more rings of power. Let's manifest it. Just a beautiful group of characters and a beautiful, a beautiful part of the show that I loved and cherished and we'll miss dearly. Maybe someday Chris Ryan will agree with us that that Harfut's are wonderful. Dare to dream. Okay. Meanwhile, in Oregon.

Yeah. here we come to it. By the way, you've had to wait until the, like, this far into the podcast for us to talk about. The episode was no time. Like, immediately, like, we see Galadryl and, like, a sack of potatoes, which is Hallibrand on a horse, galloping towards Oregon. And then, like, most immediately thereafter, we get Hallibrand and Calabrand and Calabron more in a room together. Just, like, right away. Must be easier to heal a fake injury.

Sauron. All right. We've talked about this before, but is it just me or is he like just slat, like dripping in the accent? When he walks in, he's like, is Galadriel here? Like I was like, what is this? What is his accent? And I love that Charlie Vickers, who plays Sauron, aka Halibran, told entertainment weekly that he's like the world's greatest method actor.

He's like Daniel Day Lewis. He has to fully immerse himself. So I genuinely believe that he thinks accent work is part of Sauron's whole thing. I love this. I love this. I love the idea of Sauron just like crunching tape going through all of Game of Thrones, tracking the way the Little Fingers accent evolved season over season, episode over episode. Oh, the way that he says, a memorable shade.

Got it. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready to head to the veil. What did you think? I mean, like we've, I don't know. we've done, I think, a pretty good job of tracking theme and language and some performance,

but I don't know if we've praised the production design enough on this show. And I will say that this reveal of the forge, the workshop of Kelle Brimbor that they've been building all season, I thought was one of the most beautiful sets we saw. What did you think of it? Incredible. The feast for the eyes, as was the

clear parallel to the eye when the molten properly When the mithril drops Or yeah, receives the mithril as its little pupil slid at last. That was awesome. I loved. Would you rather a mithril pupil? Uh-huh.

Yeah. Or a cat's paw dagger pupil that were getting a Rhone House of the Dragon. Oh, love both. I also enjoyed on the pupil front when Sauron. and Galadriel have their close camera, close-up shouting match in the Mind Palace, and Hal Brand's eyes just turn into the slit cellar-on eyes. That was great. So great eyeball tracking in this episode.

She had like these beautiful, like, swirl of blue in her. And like part of that is, I think to CJ hide the camera reflection, but part of it too, it just like, it looked really beautiful. Anyway, yeah. Swim in that ocean, Joe. Not going to stop swimming now. Ocean eyes. Can't stop swimming now.

The, on the forge front, this was genuinely funny to me and I loved this. Like, as you said, the second the Halbran walks out there's colladryl here and squadrial here. Calabrimbor, not the Calibranbor. And Calibrembor goes from being

defeated and downtrodden to booting up his electric shades from the shades store cannot wait puffing out his chest to give Albrand the tour of the boy is so excited

it's so funny is here I love that the Calibrimborin ball the he calibernball it's just amazing all right so first of all

because we usually watch these episodes on the screeners first of all love to watch it with closed captioning which I did this morning, was really a whole different experience for me. Secondly, to wash it with some of those like Amazon X-ray features that Amazon does that I think every streaming platform should do. Why don't they? But I like the detail that we like we learn in this design for this workshop. These are a lot of the holly motif.

Holly is like, Oregon is called Hollis. The holly, you know, design is like part of its inspiration. Then also the, those electric shades from the shade store that you. You mentioned that those are a gift from the dwarves. But how would I know that if I didn't use the Amazon X-ray feature? I don't know. But fun fact for me to know. And I think also like when we see the anvil and we see everything there, we're meant to think about that like sort of destroyed workshop that Galadriel encounters the beginning of the season.

Right. Because there was like an anvil there and stuff like that. Yeah. Halran shows a particular interest in the meat real. Kulia Orr, right? Just suspicious. I mean, not subtle. No.

Not subtle to the point where, you know, we're in the finale of the season and it has to happen. Gladryl, and then some of this comes from what she later hears, Kelleberbord. Just parroting things that Adder has said. It was the key that opened the dam. Yeah, that was amazing. Just like describing the exact plot. Disimpaulating. Yeah.

do. Avion of him land. But like, and then the overflesh line as well. But these things are happening very quickly to go from no reason to doubt how the brand. And in fact, the nature of their tie had as we, as we talked

about it, episode six and seven, boy, it was on a, it was a rocket ship of affection and bondage talk. And very quickly, that shifts here because, and he's got, I get just He's laying it on thick, thick with Calabrimbor. And whether that is because there is actual sorcery at play

and Calibrambor is brought under his sway. The only reason I thought that was because of like the specificity of the language for him to use the exact same words that Adar used. And then when Galadriel asks him about that, he's like, uh, I don't know, doesn't matter. Yeah. I think I, yeah, my Smith said it. I think they're my words. And he genuinely seems to not spell.

No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Galadro gets suspicious pretty quickly of Hal Brand. I would say also kind of late. Like we've said this to her from the start of like maybe when you were in the Hall of Lor and Orla and you were looking through some scrolls, maybe this is the scroll you should have been after the line of kings. Yes.

So, okay, I will say, I said at the top of the episode that I generally loved the Galadriel Halblern plot in this episode and their scenes together and their conversations together and everything in the My Palace, I thought was awesome. Yeah. The fact that this truth is unearth so quickly because someone just decided to check the records finally, like we have that exchange where the guy says,

oh, we don't really track the mortals, which I thought was very funny. They're totally beneath their attention and their time. But it's like, wait, Galadriel, you could have just gone on Wikipedia. and you didn't take the time to do even that. Now, in some ways that's... Ancestry.com.

Exactly. Yeah. Hit up D23 and me. No, no free ads. The fact that I think in some ways, the fact that that like what seems to be a very quick and clear step to take doesn't happen, I actually think tracks and fits really well with this myopic pursuit that Galadriel was on. And we've been talking about this a lot in ring too, this idea of like her just like that

false light reflected back at you. Yeah, but it's, it is tough also because it's like, oh. Again, if we had had three episodes for like him to do his seduction of Caleb Brimbor and her to grow increasingly suspicious, but still attracted to him or whatever else you want to call it, like, it's just so fast. It's very fast. So their first conversation, Gallen Hal. Gallin Hal. Galansar. Doesn't have quite the same ring.

I'm going to have to workshop the couple name. I include it's a fun little threat, right? When he's like, you're great, you're wonderful. You pushed me to heist that no one else could have. I will never forget that. And I'll see to it that no one else does either. Yeah. Cool stuff.

Again, not super subtle. No. Well, I mean, we haven't, we didn't talk about it. The moment that I, like, shrieked out loud. and I told you this in my office that I was watching this is when he was like, to Caliborim, call it out, he paused and I was like, say a gift. Say it. He was shouting a gift.

He was like, a gift. And I was like, yes. Anyway. That was an amazing moment. You know, we've talked about it in a lot in ring too, but Anatar, Lord of Gifts. Lord of Gifts. Fair friend. I'm your friend.

There it all was. Galadriel, he says, all right. Galadriel. Showdown at the Glendon River, right? The jig is most definitely up. She is, like, listlessly holding this scroll of the family tree, which is, like, intricately carved on the, like, for all that we don't track the mortals,

this scroll is in this, like, beautiful scroll case with, like, I don't know, dire wolves at the end or whatever. So you come, like, Halbrand, no longer Sauron. He's Sauron. Come sprinting down to the river. Giddy is telling her, we're not going to make one. want to make two. Yep.

This is definitely like his and hers rings of power that he wants to make, right? Yeah. Well, he's got a whole vision. Yeah. A whole vision for their shared future, as we will see shortly in the reflective surface. So he's ready. He's ready to lock it down, Joe. Here's something that I loved.

I was very concerned because, like, I knew that this, like, what had to be true is that sort of like the second that Galadriel knows for certain that he, Sauron and he emits it right away, right? I was like, oh no, is this over? Because I didn't want it to be over. And then he does me and you and everyone we know a favor and just shoves her into a mind palace so that we can keep talking. And I was delighted that that happened. Absolutely great. I loved the mind palace sequence. I thought it was awesome. My favorite part of the finale, certainly. But that conversation that you mentioned right before that, the one where he's like, yeah, yeah, you got me. The best part about that,

was he had no reason to do anything else because as he explains to her in this exchange that they have, he didn't really hide it at all at any point. Now, that doesn't mean there wasn't deception. Of course there wasn't. That is central, central to how he warps and manipulates the truth and, of course, other people. And we could not go through this episode without constantly thinking about what is one of the most important lines from the season undoubtedly, which was his, their exchange at episode four, no, give them a means of mastering it so that you can master them. That is so top of mind watching this admission on the raft, you saved me. On the raft, you saved me. You convinced Mariel to save the men of Middle Earth. You convinced her. I wanted to

remain in Numenor. You fought beside me against your enemy and mine. Tell me your name. This line gave me a chill. And this was an amazing line reading. Well, the way it was shot. It was the way it was shot. Yeah. And like an up angle. Yeah. I have been a week since before the breaking of the first silence.

In that time, I have had many names. I've had many names. Episode three, what are you called again? Depends on what? How close we are. It's just everything clicked into place. We were tracking this throughout, but even so, this will be such a rewarding rewatch. A really fun rewatch.

I can not wait to watch it through the lens of this confirmation. Yeah, this has been the party in ring too this whole time as us being like, okay, this is Sauroni, this is Sauroni, this is Saurani. But yeah, I think we're watching knowing for absolute certain there's just going to be a ton of stuff to enjoy. Your guy Finnrod with the Silver Lake, he of the Silver Lake fade. Man, he's back in action here. I loved this actor's performance of this because to go from Finrod. And again, the casting of him too, because there's, he's.

got a such a beautiful elven face, but also it's scary in this sequence. He is like all serpent in the garden in his conversation with her here. And I thought that Morphith Clark, making Galadriel, like, resistant and then under the thrall and not and more childlike, because the last time we saw her there, she was a child. Like, I thought her performance involved, like not wanting to believe, but wanting to believe. I thought that was just really beautiful. Also, sexual attention award to Finran and Galadriel because, you know, maybe this is I've been watching to the House of the Dragons.

Right. But because he's actually Sauron and we can get to a second whether or not you want this seduction to be romantic or not, there's a seduction. He's trying to seduce her, you know, with the. with her fondest memory. And so you get this very upsetting thing introduced here. Quite charged. And I think that as he then continues to make the case

in the next sequence on the raft for their shared future, which we'll talk about in a second, it makes the Finrod play here really insidious. Like one of that great moments that we talked about at the time earlier in this season was the apology after Galadriel revealed this great source of pain, the loss of her brother.

Her brother. And his and Hal Brown, sorry, I'm apologizing for that. And to not, to know that this is the heart of this unflinching and ceasing pursuit, this loss, this grief, this pain. And to use that to try to sway her and manipulate. To master her? Exactly. And then to go into the next phase of this and say,

I think we how great we could be together is utterly sinister. And so I will be keeping that in mind as we talk about the penitent. What was our parents called from an hour ago? Saurin, the penitent, sourd experience. Yeah. Calls himself friend, as you mentioned this,

is a key, a buzzword for good old Anatar here. Your friend. And as we get this raft conversation. He is crying, right? As he says, as when Morgoth dies, as if a great clenched fist had released its grasp on my neck,

I felt the light of the one again. Here, okay, we're getting into all of it. We're getting into the Pendant Sauron experience right now, right here, right now, okay? Again, we've been talking about it in Ring 2. Here's what I think is true of Charlie Vickers' decisions of how to play, Halibrand and Saran.

I honestly think everything he's saying has some truth in it. I agree. There's truth in every single thing he says. That's why it's interesting. Exactly. So the fact that he's like, it's not just manipulation. There is definitely manipulation here. We see it in how quickly he turns, you know, from from coaxing to threatening and

stuff like that. But I think it's true that under Morgoth, he feels. felt, you know, stifled. He felt discreet. You know, and that's true of Sauron, Anatar in Tolkien's work, that he was corrupted by Morgoth and taken from the light of Alivatar into the darkness and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. I thought that the, this, you mentioned the emotion that is so central to this performance

on, from both of them on the raft. just a really amazing stretch of the finale. When this was really good. There's the do not tell me what I believe response from Galadriel. And he says, he reminds her, you told me after our victory, you said that whenever I'd done before, I could be free of it now. You deceived me, Galadriel replies. I told you the truth.

I told you that I had done evil. and you did not care because you knew that our past meant nothing weighed against our future. Now, we'll talk about the glimpse of that future in a second. But in terms of that discussion of the past and the, I agree with you completely that there's truth to everything he's saying. And that's why it's powerful and why it's compelling because the idea that he believes this all to be true is what is so dangerous about it, is what is so seductive about it. And it made me think of like another Galadriel line that we had as one of the opening notes for the show.

in the two-part premiere in the conversation with Elron, evil does not sleep Elrond. It waits. And in our moment of complacency, it blinds us. And I think it's really interesting to watch this conversation

thinking about how that not only applies to Galadriel, but also to Saron himself there in terms of the way that he's thinking about his own repentance and the truth inside of him and how he is giving into it or fighting against it.

Charlie Vickers has given a bunch of interviews post this reveal. He can finally actually talk about his character. He's a great interview. These quotes are amazing. And he's clearly taking the scholarship very seriously, which I love. Has been like reading all the Tolkien letters, etc. So he's been citing some of these quotes about a pedantan that we have been discussing in Ring 2 in previous episodes.

So here's a couple passages from the Sil, Marillion, about the penitent Sauron, right? And some hold, so after the fall of Morgoth, and some hold that this was not at first falsely done his penitence, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear. Charlie Bickers keeps talking about that idea of fear as a motivation for Sauron here. Being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. Then Sauron was ashamed and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the valor a sentence, it might be of long servitude and proof of his good faith. for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore, he hid himself in Middle Earth, and he fell back into evil for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong. So exactly what you're saying, that evil that waits inside of him, that he cannot purge himself from. And he sees, we're going to talk about this second right, but he sees Galadryl as the only opportunity to purge himself of that dark.

or at least balance it. Okay. Right. And I think like the idea of fear as the motivation for repenting is really interesting. Because on the one hand, that's like the most actually human and relatable thing. Fear's the mind killer, right? You have to work through your fear. But I think it's also true that if fear is your only propulsive force, then there is not,

is not really that kernel of goodness there. There is not that balance inside or the capacity for it for long because the thing that you're motivated by is it's an absence, right? It's not a presence. Like you are seeking to avoid culpability, accountability, shame, punishment. You are not actually seeking betterment. Right. He's not willing to do the work. Yeah. It takes for an actual proper redemption, right? Yeah. Can I just say of the, of the, all of the great Charlie Vickers quotes, I was cackling. There's a great line in the THR interview where, because he revealed that he didn't know yet that he was star on for the premiere and then knew after, after the break, for episode two, right,

the double premiere. And then knew after they returned from the COVID break. But I was just going to read this is so funny. I did have an inkling. if I'm honest with you, my last two auditions were reading lines from Richard the third, and we know he's not the greatest guy in the world. And then the other audition lines were for Paradise Lost, where you're literally giving the speech as Satan.

So that gave me an inkling there was something up. All of Charlie's interviews have been fantastic. There's a THR 1 and EW1 and NYT1. I would read all of them and a radio time's one, I think, as well. So then we get like one of the coolest things I've ever seen, right? which is they're on the raft or on the choppy seas. This is a cool thing for him to do because it's like, remember how we met sort of thing.

Yeah, remember our meat cute. Yeah. Right? But then the choppy sees go glassy and I gasped. I got so excited because the glassy surface is, of course, going to provide us an opportunity to do a mirror of Galadriel moment, which is exactly what we get. The mirror of Galadro, that chapter, I think if you go back and rereadry it,

knowing what this show intends to do with the history between Sauron and Galadryl, that chapter, reread. That chapter, reread, read that entire chapter. It's very rewarding. And I talked to Jady and Patrick about it. We'll talk about it a lot in that interview. But when he says the tides of fate thing to her, that is something Galadriel says in that chapter, right? And then we get, like, the most overt thing when he said, make you a queen fair as the sea and the sun.

that is a direct excerpt from Galadriel and Kate Blanchett's, like, extremely famous. Yeah. In place the dark laurel, you will set up a queen speech from that section of fellowship. What, like, ran through your body as this moment happened? Chills. Chills. The surge of electricity. Visually stunning. This is like what the show has done so well throughout the first season, these utterly

visually arresting, jaw-dropping moments that are so rewarding because of the character arc and the thematic resonance at play there. And that vision, yeah, same experience thinking of that was just like seeing in, it almost was like I had a split screen in my mind or a picture and picture and was watching Game Blanchette as Galadriel and the way that the, because we talked about But in our pod with Brian, like some of the horror elements in the way that that was presented in fellowship. And so in addition to everything that it's calling on there, of course, I was thinking of the relief that that surges through and courses through Galadriel in fellowship when she's like, I passed the test. Because this is, of course, another test too, right? A constant choice to be good.

Exactly. Exactly. And like I love like you said, revisiting the chapter and the text because one of the things that I really enjoy about that stretch of fellowship is there's the presentation of facts about the mirror in general. And then there's like the specific tailoring in the con because in the film it's Frodo, but also Sam is there in the book. And so like the specific tailoring of what Galadriel is saying to both of them. And with Frodo, there's that you may learn something and whether what you see be fair or you. evil that may be profitable and yet it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. And there's that idea again, right? Yet I think, Ferro, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here. And then with Sam, remember that the mirror shows many things you were referencing this earlier, not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to pass unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The mirror is

is dangerous as a guide of deeds. And so that last line, the mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds, was really top of mind for me, given the choices that Galadriel makes after. Yes. You refer to him as Detective Elrond in our notes. That pulls her out of the river later, because in their exchange, they're discussing this idea of trust that they have, they're calling back to the beginning of the episode, but also their history earlier in the season.

But the choice that Galadriel is making to not reveal what happened here, to carry that inside instead of sharing that burden with Elron. I have some questions about that. I do as well. I do as well. The mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds. And so there's that fear of what she saw, right? And so in an effort to avoid it, what mistakes do you make maybe along the way?

Let's listen, shall we, to a little bit of gal and hal here on the raft, Carlisley plays for us? Right. I want you to join me we can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy Don't do this, but Oh my God Please don't go this way

No, no, you're still Holding I! Let's call! Oh sorry, wait, that was the wrong clip, Krelsyl. Will you play the actual clip from this scene, please? We were brought together for a purpose.

This is it. You bind me to the white And I bind you to power We can save this middle earth. Safe or rule. I see no difference. That is why you'll never be at your side. I see no difference.

Give me a chill. Just an absolutely iconic Kylo Red soundbite pull. Great work. Thank you to Carlos for conspiring. So there's so, like, I hesitate sometimes to pull in Kylo. and Ray because it is such a controversial Star Wars thing and I don't want anyone to think I am insulting any. Like, I love The Last Jedi.

I love Kylo and Ray. I love the throne and fight. I love this conversation after. So this is the highest of compliments when I say there is. Sauron is reading right out of the Kylo Ren, Gaslight, Nag, persuade a textbook here, you know, when he's like, the Ellis rejected you. Only I see your power. Only I alone can see your greatness, which is Kylo saying to Ray, you're nothing.

no one, but not to me, right? And so bring them low so that they will go home with you is, you know, is the energy coming off of these two guys. Not dark, not with you at my side, he says. How much do you believe, do you believe that? Do you believe he wants the lightness, or do you believe he just wants the power? I think both. I think they're entwined in his mind. I think that he's viewing Galadriel as a rare peer in terms of

power, capability. They obviously have had a very sincere and real connection. You know, one of our favorite moments of the season was after the battle in episode six when they're sitting on their log, not having sex, and instead having this

also wonderful exchange. I never believed I, well, this is actually, I'll read the prior line too, because it's relevant to what we talked about a few minutes ago. Whatever it was, he did to you, whatever it was, you did be free of it. And Halburn replies, I never believed I could be until today fighting at your side. I felt, if I could just hold on to that feeling, keep it with me always, bind it to my very being. And I think that he feels that.

You could feel that he felt that and meant it. But I think it is also true that the reason that that is meaningful to him is because it is something that will fuel his quest for power, will fuel his effort to remake Middle Earth in his image, which is a violation of that sub-creator code and instead then a pursuit of like true godlike status to remake the world in your image. And I don't know, like I was thinking of the, you mentioned the key damn line earlier, which was great. I, you know, we've been talking about on our Sauron.

Now we can just say that relationship. We said that before the whole time. But now that we know that it's Halbrand and we can play back their exchange.

Who are you? All of that. The rage that Al-Brand carried as he stood above him and looked down on him and what he took from him. Like it's interesting

to think about so that you can master them idea and the look in Sauron's eyes as he arrives back in now in Mordor at the end and is looking out to Mount Doom

when he, what, simply walks into Mordor? Simply walks into Mordor. They don't have as much security in place yet. This all happened. They haven't put the wall yet. Pretty recently. But like, did Adar co-opt this mission and actually do the thing that Sauron wanted?

Yeah. Because they're clearly in opposition and enemies. I mean, he says that outright in this episode, but did he still get the thing that he wanted out of it in the end? I mean, it seems as though the, well, something that you might talk about this a little bit warming too, but like something that Charlie Vickers has had an interview is that like, how did Hallibrand run up on the raft and like all that sort of stuff? Or how did Sauron write up on the raft is something they're going to explore in season two. So we're going to find out and think a little bit more about like what was the plan. What was that branding all about and all that sort of stuff?

Right, right. Going back in two, you buy me to the lead, I buy into the power. Yeah. And the title of this episode, which is alloyed, this concept of Halbrane and Galadriel, two precious metals, you know, can they combine? We get a couple, as they are talking about the rings in the process and Caleb Brimbor's process, we get a couple interesting quotes about these combinations. right. So Halbrin, again, laying on the Southland accent. I'm just a poor, humble, Southlander act. Where I came from, precious metals were scarce his head's teeth. So we learned to combine them to harness strengths and hide flaws. I've seen a trace of nickel add to iron to

make a blade lighter and stronger. Might there not be some alloy to amplify the qualities of your ore, right? So exactly what you're saying. Like, bind Galadriel to him. to amplify his power, the qualities of his oar, right? And I love I love Calibirmore here talking about the problem they're having with Mithriel. He says,

the Mithril is proud or refuses every effort to bond with lesser ores. That sounds like Galadryl to me. And then he says the metals shouldn't be forced to join, but more drawn or coax together. That's them. That's Galatria.

That's Galahal and Al. On a scale of 1 to 10, And how much are you still shipping it between Sauron and Galadry? Oh, boy. You know, not zero, which is troubling. Yeah. It's a problem. How about you?

Okay. So we got this email from Kim who wrote, one thing I haven't, I'm going to answer your question. One thing I haven't heard discussed much on the topic of Sauron's identity is the notion that not only elves, but the audience as well, must be seduced by his arguments in order for the show to drive home the impact of his character. I have faith in these show owners, so I believe that they will. will try to make viewers fall for Sauron's charm and deceit just as elves do. Of course, as viewers were either suspect or no outright, that some, she wrote this again before

the finale, outright that someone, Hallibran is Sauron or an attorney in disguise, but I think that Sauron will come off as charming, funny, wise, and seemingly helpful. This will allow us to fully understand how the creations of the rings came to pass. Now, Kim wrote this before I saw the finale. We zipped through a lot of this. This was like my vision for season two, that we would just be like hanging out in a regia and whatever. That's fine.

That era is done. But I do think introducing us to Sauron and Salabrand, hiding Sauron in an Aragorn package is a great way to seduce the audience into being interested and invested in this character so that when he cries, we're like, oh, my God, our Aragorn counterpart is crying. It puts him squarely in my favorite TV trope bucket, which is the problematic fave, right? No, not square. He's outside the bucket. We're going to talk about the limits in the bucket in a second, right? But, like, okay, we talk about this all the time. Jamie Lannister, of course.

And again, Sawyer-on-Law, Spike on Buffy, and the common thread through these problematic faves is usually I'm a monster but not for you. Like you can change me. Your guy, Damon Targaryen. Yeah. My guy Damon, right? I will murder only for you now. Which is a, it's a female power fantasy.

We talk about male power fantasy all the time. This is why this trope is so popular with women is like, you can convert a monster into like your pet. The things I do for love. Yeah. How powerful is that, right? there are limits, as I said. Like, I think the people problematic-faving serial killers played by Evan Peters, that's, that's well beyond the limit. That's not okay as far as I'm concerned.

So if you're sitting at home being like, Juana is literally sour on, I promise I hear you. And Charlie Vickers is on your side. Charlie Vickers does not shift this, right? he says to EW, he said, I think when Halbran presents himself to her in the final episode

he basically makes a pitch. He says, let's do this. You can be the queen. I'll be the king. He says, I don't think it's out of romance at all. It's not a proposal.

It's based on his own personal gain. He thinks he can rule more effectively with her at his side. And if she says no, by no means is at the end of the world, I think he is evil and he is terrible. And in the end, he's going to be in charge by himself.

Whether or not she's by his side, he'll find a way to do that. but this time it'll be more effective with her there. I'm going to say, you know, far be it from me to contradict the actor himself about his own character. But I will say there's like different levels of romance and if what, Valerie Smirking of me, this is like obsession possession, right? Which is not a healthy romance. It's a bad romance.

But I don't think you can completely divorce it from if you're grabbing. having a woman's face, not even gravelling, tenderly creating, cradling her chin and talking about making her your queen. And you're telling me there's no romance involved in that? I don't know. How do you, how do you feel? I agree. And I think maybe it's more, maybe it's less romance in the traditional way that we think about it and more longing and lust. And that these possession.

Yeah. In those ways, Galadriel and his quest are. it's of a piece for him. There's lust and longing there, not necessarily in a like, again, let's go get married and start our little Mordor family. Though maybe also that.

I don't know. Right. And I think he probably could not separate his lust for power. Power. He's like... Right. Exactly. Lust.

Desire, if you prefer, to keep it more Tolkien and family friendly for her. And I know a lot of people, you know, who have been watching, to this whole Halber and Sauron thing from the start, vehemently object to any kind of like Halbrin Galadriel, Sauron Galadriel,

sort of, you know, bad romance situation. But it's a really potent storytelling device. And I, for one, would like to see more trips to the Mine Palace as they have. You know, you know how, like, Kylo and Ray do their for Skyping. I won't force Skyping with the... I'm in with Gall and Hal.

I quite agree. Right? I quite agree. Yeah, it's potent. It really is a potent thing. And, you know, one of the things, one of the lines that we held on to most throughout the season was the Gilgallad line to Elrond about Galadriel. We foresaw that if it had, she might have inadvertently kept alive the very evil she sought to defeat for the same win that seeks to blow out of fire may also cause its spread. And I think that it's like, you know, it's important for us to not, it's important for us to talk about the way that that, that desire.

and that the thing that was like sparked there, the fire that was spreading, was going in both directions. And that's why, like, it was one of the very first things that you said about why Hal Branda Sauron was such a compelling outcome and such an interesting thing to track across the season because of not just what it told us about him.

And, you know, the point you were making earlier, like us as viewers being seduced in the same way, falling under his sway in the same way that the characters around him were, which was happening, absolutely. But because of what that then meant for Galadriel and her own self-awareness and reflection about her own, the limits of her perspective

for a character who is so certain and so hell-bent on pursuing a given outcome, and that was part of her journey this season, was actively confronting that across the most recent episodes. And then even in the face of confronting that and grappling with where that led, then this final thing is still there. to wrestle with.

And then you go forward from there. And the, what are, what are your fellow elves going to think when they learn that you were my ally? Like, she, she's not rid of him yet, right? And that's part of a, that's part of a coupling too. It's like the, the mark of that doesn't just leave you the second that you part ways, that you're not both in the same physical place. Not coupling.

In the bowels of the pleasure dance. Is it Balsallel brothel? I need to start saying that early right. Okay, anyway. Probably. Pleasure den, actually. Might be brothels. Pleasure barge, pleasure den.

Okay, anyway, as much of a hot Sauron who fucks, fan I am, it's hard to root for him when he threatens to expose her. She's going to expose him. But I have a little bit of an issue with this working on Galadryl. They tied themselves a little bit of a little bit of a nudgerill. narrative not here because what is key from canon is that Galadriel and Gil Gallid are the two people on whom Anitar shit never worked, right? So we're changing that a little in that it works on Galadry until we get to a Regan, which is, you know, when he does true Anatar shit, and then it's immediately spell broken. She's like, what's going on here, right? And I thought it was interesting

that line that Gil Gallet has earlier when Calibor brings up Halbrand and he says the low man gave you this idea so that you know that gives us maybe a little breadcrumb trail towards like Gil Gallad being an early like you know and we've got Detective Elrond on the case trying to like

figure out what's going on here but I I just have a hard time believing that Galadry would know that he's Saurin and not tell people she feels like she's rid of me He's gone. She's like he's not coming back.

And if he does, don't talk to him. Don't think Caliborneboar's going to follow her instructions. But like, she's like, okay, he's gone. What might work for me is if she is somewhat under a spell in a way that she doesn't quite realize. Because fake Finrod, he of the Silver Lake Fade, says, you need lie to them, simply let the work proceed. You know, and we heard Kelbrinbor repeat those words in a way, again, that felt like he was under some kind of spell. So, like, if she's doing this because she thinks she's making, like, steering the ship, but she's under a thrall of some kind, that works better for me than her being blackmailed by the devil. Yes, I don't know.

This was, yeah, the everything in the actual conversations between them, excellent, the, as we talked about the kind of inciting incident. pacing and then the immediate fallout like slightly less effective. I had the thought about the spell as well and whether there was some sort of sway that she was under still. I guess the other way that it can work is when Elrond says to her at the beginning of the episode when they're reunited, I should have trusted you.

It is a mistake I will not make again. And then at the end when he's like, what's going on here? Trust me. And Elron says you are making that promise very difficult to keep and Galadriel says were it easy it would not require trust. It's like a backslide into the I am the one person who can clearly see the way forward here that like might be narratively interesting given the long road that we still have to travel. But but I do agree.

I was like, wait, she's not going to tell them that that was Zara on who was helping to make these rings. That's not good. That's that can't. That's not great. we can't have that. Finrod's like, touch the darkness again, Galadryl. Key question. Do you think

that Halbrand Sauron was intending to kill her leaving her in the river like that and she would have died were it not for Elrond? Or was the, is the Glendween shallow enough there that he's just like, you know,

shoved her in and was like, she'll be fine. that's a great question you'd think if he was like really trying to kill her he would have like killed her right yes I think so I took it more as like a contrast and a way to a way to cement

that they are on a different path now because of course when she fell into the sundering sea and he dove in after to pull her out and this is like then leaving her in the water and the water and the reflection and the light and the darkness and how can you tell the difference in the boat knowing which way it's up like all of that kind of being at play in that moment. So I did not think he tried to kill her.

I didn't either. I just wanted to take her time. Once again, I'm not trying to be a Sauron apologist. You love Sauron. Definitely you? Saur, do you watch the show you? No, I've never seen you. Okay.

Charlie Vickr is giving these interviews. It reminds me a lot of when Penn Badgley talks about his character, Joe, on you, who's like a stalker and a creep and a murderer. But people watch that show and they're like, oh, my God. God, he's so dreaming. He's like, in every interview, Penn Badger's like, no. I am playing a creepy killer weirdo. What's wrong with you?

And I feel like Charlie Vickers is like, please don't romanticize Sauron. I'd really appreciate it. I'm playing the devil. It's fine. Anyway, it's not going to stop any of us. Three rings for Elving Kings. That's what we get at the end of this season here. So he's for Key.

about the three rings for Elvin Kings. We'll talk a little bit about more about this in Ring 2, but like, unlike the other rings that fall under the sway of the One Rings, stuff like that, the three rings for Elvin Kings were never touched by Sauron. And so that's what we get here is we get Anatar, Lord of Gifts, shows up, gives some ideas, but fucks off before the forging of these three rings. Because it's very important that he has not touched them. will diminish his ability to have control over them.

So, and I really love this moment where Finrod's dagger provides the oar for the rings, because I just love a thing hiding in plain sight the whole time. And one of those things is Alba and the Sarum, but another is like, we've just been looking at that dagger all season long, and it never once occurred to me that that, I mean, maybe Reddit was all over this, but it never once occurred to me that that or. would be melted down and, you know, mixed with the mithril and to form the rings. But how did you feel about it? Yeah, I loved it.

Like, for a couple different reasons, the true creation requires sacrifice idea that we hear in this episode is a callback to something we've heard from Kellibor before, of course. And for Galadriel, like that dagger is the symbol of her quest. It is the symbol of her devotion to carrying on this fight. and the Elrond plea to put up your sword from the premiere. Like this is on the one hand finally doing that. Like finally letting go and watching that quite literally melt away. But what I think is so cool about the specific use here is that it just then takes another form.

And it takes another shape and it's something that you still carry with you. And so like that glad you line in this episode, sometimes the perilous path is the only path. This is a character who believes that. And you feel that really keenly in a moment like that. There's the like the last glimpse is the, I'm not a Smith. So I don't know the proper terms for these things. The door to the four to can't possibly be called door closes. I think a door.

A hatch. A hatch. Let's go. A hatch. Yeah, we love a hatch. We love to talk about that. I didn't see Desmond inside. All right.

I'm crossing you off my Sauron suspect list since you told me you don't know. You're not a Smith. Okay, got it. I'm not a smith. This idea of sacrifice of giving up an object reminds me of this moment where, you know, Pippin drops the brooch, the precious, beautiful leaf brooch off the elven cloak in order to provide a trail for Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli to follow. And in the book, Aragorn says, and here also is your broach Pippin, I've kept it safe for it as a very precious thing, right?

And Piven says, I know it was a wrench to let it go, but what else could I do? And Aragorn says, nothing else. One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. You did rightly, right? So Galadriel giving up her precious dagger for this greater good, you know, standing in contrast to the inability to give up the ring from our guy Isildur who is currently in the rubble of Mordor, I guess. Hopefully he and Barrick are sharing apples by now. I hope so. Narya, Nenya, and Vilia are the three elven rings, the ring of fire, Naria, the ring of Air, Vilia, and the ring.

the ring of adamant nenya and nanya. I don't know how much I can say I should say about these rings, but that's Galadriel's ring is nanya. Though really, when you look at these three rings that they forged here, the one that it's just looks like is made of mithril and canonically it's the one that's made of mithril. This, again, I am not a smith. But all of this talk of all I seem to imply that like all of these rings were made from all of those metals, like that there's mithril in all of them.

So because of the me through a backstory and the circular something Calabran Borset about power going back and forth on a circle. Love it. Yeah. That's it. We already mentioned Halbran smuggled himself across the border in David Targary's murder cloak. So we are good to go with this finale. Anything else you want to say about the forging of the rings? Mentioned how cool the visual was that overhead shot that became the eye.

I think the one will always corrupt, two will divide. But with three, there is balance. I loved that. Very interesting, very cool moment. A kind of classic season one rings of power conversation where you're like, man, these characters have made such progress. They've really shown a lot of growth. They've looked inward and thought about how to evolve.

And then the next line is, the powers we forged today must be for elves alone. Untouched by other hands. It's like, oh, no. So, you know, that's something that we've talked about a lot, too, is like so many of the parallels across these character sets when you try to protect your community, but then is that in conflict with fellowship and with sharing? Okay, well, being really careful maybe means that you can't be corrupted the way that other sets of rings will be, but then have you shut yourself off from something that is sacred inside of this story? Your certainty guides you and it gives you clarity. You mentioned the idea of a greater good a few minutes ago. Well, what, how then do you?

you find the difference between your pursuit of the greater good and Sauron's pursuit of the greater good. And all of the things we've talked about all season long about intention and the lust for power versus the desire to heal and nurture and tend obviously is very central there. So I like that this like final climactic moment incorporated a lot of those key ideas. All right. That is the that is the ring one of rings of power. Plotsam and jets them. I actually don't have anything here other than like, Funaple did a song about the ring verse. And honestly, the first time I heard it, I wasn't sure.

But now it's stuck in my head, especially because, you know, knowing it's coming if you rewatch this forging scene, you know, Bear McCrary's score is that song. And so like that score, the progression is just, it's kind of been Reins of Castamere haunting me, honestly, today. High praise. High praise. Very high praise from me.

All right. So Ring 2. We're going into Ring 2. This is forward-looking stuff. We're no longer trying to guess who Sauron is. Though I guess before we go into Ring 2, just one last thing I'll say, because there might be some people listening who are really confused. Canonically, Sauron is hot at this time.

This is just a true. Fair form, Anatar. Hot guy. So those of us who knew that, we decided not to put that in Ring 1 all season, but those of us knew that were suspicious of every attractive person we met on the show. So do you think he's just going to stay in this form? Yeah, I really do. Yeah.

I mean, we might see him do like, you know, some of that fun slit eye, bruise-face moves that he did on the raft. And I'm sure he'll take on other forms at certain points, method actor that he is. But I think they're going to keep Charlie Vickers in this role as much as they possibly can. It's just better TV storytelling if... we bonded with an actor and we get to see him and he's great. So hopefully.

All right, ring two. Conspiracy unmassed. I just have a bullpoint that says, Welp, because honestly we've spent a lot of time in here talking about his Halvran Saran and I just had a great day. Had a great day. Very satisfying. Very satisfying.

Charlie, as I already mentioned, Charlie Vickers said that we're going to get some Sauron backstory, how he ended up on the raft or whatever in season two. you told THR that. Yeah. So the Blue Wizard thing, right? So here's what Tolkien says about the blue. Again, the Blue Wizards is something he was just like noodling on and noodling on and noodling on like George R. Martin working on Winds and Winter for like a long time it didn't come to any like clear, clear conclusions.

But in a letter, he wrote, I really did not know anything clearly about the other two wizards since they do not concern the history. of the northwest, I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, far out of Newmanorian range, missionaries to enemy occupied lands, as it were. What success they had, I do not know, but I fear that they failed as Sauramon did, though doubtless in different ways. And I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and magic traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron. So, like, this possibility that when the cultists show up, they say he is the other, the

istar he is. Okay. So, like, I took that to mean he's not Sauron. He's the other, the other being the wizard. But what if they meant, like, he's the other wizard? And we already know the other was he's already in Hruin. The, like, other blue wizard is already there or something like that. There's also a possibility that, like, we'll get a repeat of the Gandalf Sarmon dynamic.

If the other blue wizard falls, you know, the way that Tolkien, Tolkien kind of knew, back and forth, like maybe they will fall, they fail to prevent Sauron, but like maybe that's because they fall or maybe they stay faithful and true. By the other way, their mission fails. So this possibility of giving us, and I just love this idea of, again, Rune, the East is a blank spot on the map. We don't know a lot about it. We know that the Easterlings come out of the east to support Sauron and something like that. We don't know much about it. I thought the cultists, as far as their like design went, were very cool. So it's really, excited to think about this whole, you know, as J.D. and Patrick play in, like,

sandboxes were more familiar with. And then now they're getting to move into a sandbox that there's no date on and so that they can just, like, invent kind of whatever, really whatever they want to out of this blank spot on the map. And, you know, as the Southlanders were just, like, chilling in the mud, like the, the Froon folk, the Easterlings seem to have, like, a whole culture going on. They've got jewelry. They've got, you know, they've got all this sort of stuff. And so I think that

that provides a real interesting opportunity for Norrie and and not Gandalf or Gandalf as they go. And hopefully, Poppy. I'm excited. To be fair to the Southlanders, in addition to the mud, they also have a lot of cracked and broken floorboards. Oh my God. Great point. There's beast beneath

those boards. Okay. Halbrand. And, okay Sauron, Sauron. I'll just, I'll try to remember to call him Sauron. We got really good at calling him Hallibrand, right? Halbrot's a great name. So I'm sad, honestly, to have to retire it. Caladro's like, if he comes back, don't talk to him.

But like... Yeah. Checkoffs if he comes back. Does it seem like maybe Kellebram Bore won't follow those instructions to the letter? What do you think, Mellar Rubin? I would just suspect that if you're under Sauron's spell, you're probably going to remain in communication in some way. So. Oh, like they're texting.

I hope, I hope. They're sliding into terms. He sends him a palat. I hope he sends him a palantir. And he's like, hey, bud. So we can talk smithing. But so just a reminder that we need seven rings for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone. And nine for mortal men doomed to die.

So there are 60 more rings that Kellebrimbar has to help Sauron make. What do you think the time? timing is going to be for seeing the forging of those rings and then eventually the one ring. I feel like Sauron has to like overthrow Adar in Mordor has got to be some season two action that is happening for him. And then I have to think that like maybe it, I mean, given how quickly this all happened one episode three 11 rings. And like Duren feels like the likeliest next target for seven rings for Dorman Kings, right? So I can see that happening by the end of season two. We're doing five seasons, right?

So season two or season three. These Easterlings were about to meet. I mean, I'm worried about Theo, and I'm worried about Halbrin noticing Theo, honestly. But like the nine rings from mortal men doomed to die, like we could get a lot of, we've talked about how they're Numenorian ring race. Nine of those, three of those ring race are Numenorian, right? So we're like, Earian, Kamen, Valendil, we're worried about you. But the Easterlings might provide a good, like, candidate crop and Theo, you know. Anyway, I don't know that I'd answer your question.

Do you have a timeline? I have no idea. None. I mean, I think we both felt we'd get the elven rings in this finale, and we did. Beyond that, I'm kind of, I'm fascinated to see, I guess, because. I wouldn't be shocked if they were all in the story pretty quickly from here, I guess. Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Because you need the downfall of Numenor.

Yeah. And then you need the last alliance of elves and men, which feels like a whole final season. So, yeah, we might get all 16 in the next season. Kelle Brimbor, you easily seduced guy. When Sauron says, this is a curious oar. Saron's obsessed with Mithril. Tolkien wrote a note, Mithril is now nearly all lost.

Orks plunder it and pay tribute to Sauron who is collecting it. We don't know why. For some secret purpose of his weapons, not for beauty. And then in a later draft, Tolkien wrote slightly more extensively, they give it in tribute to Sauron who has long been gathering and hoarding all that he can find. It's not known why, not for

beauty, for some secret purpose, and in the making of weapons of war. So I feel like we're going to get some Charlie Vickers, Owen Arthur, who plays during like, you know, conversations, right? He's going straight to the minds. Please. Please.

That will be amazing. I love this email we got from listener called Diana about this idea that, like, Adar is actually right about something in some ways because she wrote this really great point. She said, I recently read Fellowship and was struck by a scene of the prancing pony, where folks are discussing how more and more people are coming up from the South looking to settle. One man says, if room isn't found for them, they'll find it for themselves. They have a right to live, same as other folks. The sentiment expressed there that the various peoples of Middle Earth need to find ways to coexist and support one another despite their differences

is a common Tolkien theme, but he put the words in the mouth of a guy described as squintide and ill-favored, who is displeasing to all the nice brie folk. I thought a lot about why Tolkien would have that message carried by a character we are supposed to dislike or distrust. their squinty ill-favored men in the inn that night include the awful Bill Fernie. And I don't necessarily have a good answer except that it's extra interesting and challenging to have a villain speak a major truth. But I wonder if any of the thinking that gave us Adar advocating for the rights of his orcs to have a homeland where they can live openly and comfortably was inspired by the original

scene at The Pony. I'm really interested to see where the rings of power crew takes that idea forward. Love this email. Just one quick correction here for our listener, Diana. it is uh... Uh-huh. Right? Oh, boy.

Still not over not getting to hear him say Mordor. Would it take in longer than Deseris' walk down the throne room? I would have loved every second of it. Oh, all right. And the question of whether or not we're going to get poppy,

like are we going to get the other, an adventure of the other Harfoots in season two while Nore is off, or are we like not going to see them until they're reunited with Nori? We got to hear from John about a sequence in the two towers, the Treebeard chapter. Where your tree beard when meeting Mary and Pippen for the first time says, But if I had not seen you before I heard your voices, I like them. Nice little voices.

They remind me of something I cannot remember. If I had seen you before, I should have trod on you. you taking you for little oaks. First of all, tree beard is it's Oonk. Secondly, John is wondering if like maybe this means we'll get hard-footed, like if tree-beard's like,

huh, you remind me of something. If we will get, and we got the little teas, two double et teas in this season, right, with like seeing them as the meteor falls and then Sadok mentioning. So are we going to get some like hardfoot and adventures. That would be great. I love an end.

In season two. I do. Do you, are you, do you want to, a musical number between Poppy and Treebeard, like a duet between those two? I'm always, I'm always here for a new musical

experience. I would love another Poppy song. I've been quite moved by this wandering day and deeply disturbed by the snail song, so I can't wait to see what emotional experience awaits us next. Okay. Last but certainly at least, maybe top of, might be top of your mind as well. How do you feel about not checking back in with his Sealedor in this finale here?

What's the point of leaving him to rot in Mordor at this point? Before door. No more door. I was so excited when I got to text you after last week's pod about finding some Smoor's ice cream at McConnell. else here in LA. Delicious, by the way. Really good. Fluffy light. It was not called Smoor door.

But I'm going to send some rebranding thoughts, you know, via the DoorDash feedback system. I don't totally understand this. Other than my assumption that the next time we're with Isielder, in addition to being with Barrick, we will also be with Bronwyn. Arandere, Theo and all of the Southlanders. And that giving us the glimpse of a still alive and well, Cildor in the finale would necessitate, it would either have had to be just like a very quick solitary moment or necessitating, like bringing in a whole other character set

that there just wasn't room for. So I actually thought that this was one where maybe like, and we've talked about this before, they're not necessarily trying to hide things, right? It's like maybe they're just actually, there's a comfort here that a good portion, certainly not all of the viewership, knows that this guy that is alive

and has a huge role to play in the story to come, and we can take that comfort with us into the long off season before season two. What about you, though? Did you think we would see him in the finale? I'll paint a picture of what I thought I saw, and I'll pitch it for season two episode one, scene two. Because season two of episode one,

scene one is Poppy running through the grass after Norrie. Right? That's the first order of business. Yeah. Right. Second on the agenda, rubble, ash, a hand poking out of the rubble and a sweet horses like muzzle bending down to a, you know, have a have a little like lick or poke at the hand. And then the hand twitches, it still doors alive. Yeah. You know what?

I'm going to recant my prior statement. We actually should have gotten that. We should have gotten the Brigo Aragorn in this episode because it won't, the timeline now has now moved forward. Like, they've sailed back. They're back in Numeron, time is fast. Yeah, so the question is like, so he's going to, it seems like he's going to stay.

I don't know if he's going to go back to Numeror. He may never, you know? Yeah, I assume he'll end up in this, in this old Numenorian colony with the Southlanders. But so protogondor, like, is he building, is he, is he there so that he can build Gondor? his brother should be there, but that's okay. So they're in to Bill Gondor.

Or do they want him to be stuck in before No Mordor for a while? And maybe they feel like that helps explain how he's more easily corrupted. You've already mentioned the moment earlier in the season where we hear him like sort of respond to the whisper of voices, right? So like the susceptibility of his Sildor. So is there something about being in Mordor or possibly interacting with him? Sauron interacting with Adar, something like that, that puts him in a position where he is more, he is frailer, more susceptible. I don't know.

Yeah, some sort of discovery via, like, the orcs discovering him. I don't want anything to happen to Barrett, though. So that makes me nervous and unhappy to think about. Like, if Barak found him and they were riding and then they got captured, but I want Barrack to be okay, so I don't even want to think about that possibility. The one thing I was going to say about him not going to, I like the idea of him being in Mordor and that having some bearing on the outcome to come. Could he just go right to the colony and the Gondor plot kicks off? Maybe.

I feel like we have to close the loop, though, on him longing to go to the West in Numerador. And his brother. Yeah, he's got to go back there. I have a lot of questions. Yeah. I mean, Mariel said she's going to. TV left. Yeah, Muriel says she's coming back.

So, and I believe her. So, oh, and they also said they were leaving some reserves. Yes. Right. So there are Numenorian reserves. To look, specifically to look for their, their ill or injured or dead or missing. I think was the word they is. Someone's going to look.

So yeah, maybe they'll find him and he'll just end up back in Numeror. But like being under a burp building for the whole off season, tough stint for a Sildor. Maxin Baldry, too pretty to. burn. Sorry, sorry that that's happening to you. So let's go now to our conversation with J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay about Rings of Power. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue,

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Hit the street, grab a can and get after it. I wanted to start by asking you, there have been a couple themes that we just keep coming back to as we discuss Tolkien as a whole in your show, specifically gardens and healers and subcreators and all that sort of stuff. I was wondering if there was one particular Tolkien theme, if you had to pick one, that sort of resonates the most with you that you are always most excited to dig into or make sure is reflected back in the work. Well, I think, you know, that's all a big part of it. You know, there's constantly trees in the show and trees of history and meaning. And, you know, there's always so, you know, friendship and bravery and, you know, I think, I think at the end of the day, you know, it does come down to this idea of varieties of goodness. You know, that the thing that Tolkien does that nobody else does is it's about. people trying to do good and people who are good who are tempted to evil. And, and, you know, the million variations and shades of that, you know, we just feel like that's the gift that keeps on giving. And that, you know, when we sit back and we watch it now having, you know, it's, it's been done for six months or so now the show. And so, you know, for, I mean, even longer,

really, the visual effects was six months ago. But, but, you know, when we watch it sort of as viewers now, it's like, you know, what we just keep seeing is people trying to do good. You know, even the villains in season one in their minds are doing good and a good that's sort of justifiable, you know, to themselves and that you can relate to and understand. And I think, you know, in the writers room very early on, we talked about the idea of variations of goodness being, being the subject of the show and trying to honor that. You know, you're never going to, you know, out Machiavellian shows that have mastered Machiavellian mess, you know, and the general feeling of peak bleak that I think we talked about maybe with you before, which is like the prestige drama has gotten pretty grim. And that's not a good or bad. That just is, you know. And I think we felt like, you know, could we try to make a show that would have real stakes and intensity at times, but that at the end of the day had some of the optimism and hope and, you know, positivity that you feel when you read Tolkien.

and I think if there's one we keep going back to it, it's something there. Yeah, and I'll sort of, you know, give us a sort of analog to that also, in that I think one that jumps out at me is just light and darkness. You know, as you speak of good and evil, light and darkness, you know, it's something that you can never get tired of exploring in Tolkien. I mean, especially on film. I mean, film is light dancing across cellul. And, you know, so the very existence of light pictures, you know, being what allows us to view something.

But, you know, it's also such a rich metaphorical experience beyond our physical experience of light and dark in the world of the idea of light and darkness inside of us. And, you know, it always fascates me that, you know, in Tolkien, really, death is not the biggest tragedy. You know, when Theodon dies, he dies a good death. I go now to the halls of my father's in whose mighty company, I shall not now be ashamed. And, you know, that's a good death, you know, but like when Boromir goes evil, you know, that's a tragedy. You know, so like, it's real tragedy in Tolkien is when people go towards darkness, you know. And so that battle of a struggle between light and darkness, you know, both in a visual sense and in a metaphorical and story sense, I think is endlessly rich to explore in, in in Tolkien's works and worlds.

So, I mean, on that theme of goodness and light, I'm curious, you know, when we have a character like The Stranger, repeating back what Norrie says, and I am good is what he says in a sort of like big climactic battle moment. Like, what is, I mean, besides the obvious,

what is putting a line like that in such a key moment mean to you? I think we know magic is really important and powerful in Tolkien. And we know wizards, you know, can wield a kind of magic in Tolkien, and we know wizards can go bad. Gandalf is tempted. You know, don't tempt me, Frodo. You know, Saraman, you know, essentially wants to be a rival for Sauron.

Or, you know, in the films he's sort of like partnered with Sauron. But like either way, it's like, you know, wizards can go evil. I think there's even some like, you know, arcana, you know, on the fringes that Tolkien wrote that like maybe one of the blue wizards in the East went evil. And the idea that being a powerful being puts you in this position where your soul is in the balance and you have to constantly choose the good, felt like a potentially rich terrain for a storyline for a character who you now know ends up being a wizard.

I mean, we're not exactly hiding that. He feels like that all along. But really for us, it's what is that going to mean for him? What is that going to mean for her? Is he a good wizard or a bad wizard? You know, Sauron is essentially a myr as well. So he is his own version of a wizard. And, you know, so that's a moment where, you know,

a character who has shown that he has darkness in him is choosing the good. That doesn't mean that journey ends. You know, you have to choose the good again. But, yeah. Yeah, and this was literally something we had on our whiteboard in our writer's room from like very early on. Before we really even started breaking story, we started by, you know, listing,

sort of rules of how the world works, you know, in Middle Earth. And one of the principles we sort of put down on the whiteboard was that good is a choice. And, you know, that sat on our whiteboard, you know, throughout the break camp season one, good is a choice. And that's a place where you did the stranger really articulates that. Like, he chooses, I am good. It's also a not especially subtle. It's a little inspired by the end of the Iron Giant, which is sublime. Oh, my God, I love that.

He's not a weapon. I love that. Okay, so speaking of things that are sort of, you know, you're not exactly hiding that are in plain sight. I loved your answer to THR about this Sauron mystery and how it's sort of reflective of the corrupt, like all of us at home watching, trying to guess what's going on

is similar to sort of the distress that's sewn between the fellowship as they get closer to Mordor. I loved brilliant, brilliant answer. But I'm just curious. about did you feel like the story you're watching here was more of a roadmap towards a reveal that should feel inevitable or more of a puzzle? Like, what was your approach towards that? So we're really not all about playing games with the audience.

And I know there were, you know, definitely some folks who were like, you know, felt like, okay, when are we going to get an answer to these questions? But it's like, it's right there all along. Like, we're not playing a game. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, a lot of people, like, episode two, are like, hey, wait a minute. It's like, that's by design.

Like, you know, it's right there. We're much more interested in the character dynamic between, you know, in this case, you know, a character who turns out to be Sauron and our heroine. That's the story. What his name is is not important. What's important is moment to moment. What is he struggling with? What is she struggling with?

what is the friendship that they're developing and what's that about and how is that changing each of them? And I would sort of, in some way, say the same for the stranger, you know, he doesn't have a name by the end of the season, but like, to us, the name is like, not important yet. That's not what stories about. The stories about

what kind of a person does you want to be. And, you know, I think we feel like we're playing straight with that. So it's not really a puzzle. I mean, you know, certainly like, you know, there's places we're deliberately tipping the show's hand a little and hoping that will make people lean in even more, but to get them to that emotional story, which is what we're actually, that's actually important to us.

And I think, you know, our hope and aspiration would be now getting to the end the way some folks have. You know, maybe they go back and look at the journey they've been on again and realize, like, it hasn't been a puzzle. It hasn't been a mystery. It's actually been about a story of two characters. It's a character journey, and I think that's really more what we're about, if that makes sense. I don't know if that answers your question. It does. It does. J.D., do you have anything you want to say about that in particular?

No, I mean, I was going to speak a little bit about just where the answer came from with THR, you know, like all good things. It comes back to the books and specifically comes from Gandalf. You know, there's this moment where he says that I think of a lot where he says, work of the enemy, such deeds he loves, friend or with friend, loyalty divided in confusion of heart. you know, this idea that, you know, the enemy's real goal, like, you know, all he has to do is we, isn't even to beat us, it's just to get us to turn against ourselves, against each other, and to make the friendship, make the fellowship break it slowly to each other. And, you know, I can't help but think of that in, in terms of, you know, the reason we talked

about it partially in terms of, you know, what happens when we're watching the show is also because we're looking at, you know, the conversation that happens, you know, around the show, but also in our world today, you know, there are so many things that, you know, should bring us together and unite us, you know, culturally where we all love something. But, you know, then, you know, we spend as much time, you know, tearing down each other's opinions about things, you know, just watching the fans fight with each other sometimes, like, Bubsby out, whether or not they like the show, you know, I can't help but think of, you know, that, you know, that, you know, that Sarah would be pleased to no end to see us, you know,

tearing each other apart, you know. What I've always loved about both of you is your ability to cite Tolkien chapter and verse, like just drop it into a conversation. Incredible stuff. And we've had such fun sort of digging through and trying to find the little nods and references that you've put into the dialogue. I'm wondering if there's a reference you put in that you were most excited that people picked up on, or if there's one that no one picked up on that you want to reveal now and say, I can't believe no one got this, man.

Well, here's what I would say. You know, I mean, so obviously it's our job, you know, set aside being fans and lovers of this literature. It's our job to be, to know it chapter and verse. You know what I mean? And to know where we're bending the rules and where we're breaking the rules. Like, you know, ultimately, you know, we have to go with what feels like bending to us. Someone else might have a different, you know. Sure.

But, but, I mean, there's references to quite a bit of other things in the show that people aren't. picking up on. You know, there's a lot of, you know, references to films we love and shows we love. And, you know, like one that, you know, to us was like the one of the initial inspirations of that whole storyline was the raft of Medusa, which is this great painting by Jericho. He's like a French neorealist painter, romantic painter, I think. And, you know, the entire story of Galadriel encountering a raft of refugees and castaways came because that was a painting we loved. It's 14 feet by 10 feet and it's in the loo.

You know what I mean? There's, there's. But the show is packed with everything that we are crazy about and have been passionate about all our lives. And, you know, you could almost just look at, like, movie references and, like, you know, write a huge piece about it. And that's a lens. I haven't seen anyone look at it through, you know.

There's a shot at the end of the, of that same episode, Galadryl and Hal, Gal and Hal, are on a smaller raft. They've survived the storm, and now they're, like, half dead, and, you know,

they're found by a ship that will turn out to be, you know, Ellen Deal's ship. And there's a shot behind him where he's, the shadow of him, or the sailor, is over them, and he has a cape around him,

and it's a direct rip-off from Lawrence of Arabia. Because the whole story of the journey over the sea was, like, can we do a survival adventure, but instead of the desert where you've seen it before, let's do it on the ocean. What would it be like if she has to swim across the entire ocean? Because she's made this crazy leap of faith, and it's now stuck with her choice.

What's she going to do? So that's just a couple of the top of my head that no one seems to have a problem. And then speaking of Numerar in terms of, you know, things to be like to say, but when we were talking about the design of the court of Numenor, we talked about Raphael's painting the School of Athens, you know, this place where it was just sort of bustling and alive with ideas and, you know, sort of a vibrant populace, and it was all sort of part of Numeron.

We wanted that to be the sort of way you first got to meet the kingdom. This is stuff that I love, and I can't wait to go back and rewatch and rewatch and try to pick up all the things that you put in there. It's just like, it's really a rich text and really fun for me. I mean, that was the goal. You know, we really, and it's not just us. It's also, you know, Biona, who directed the first couple episodes,

Charlotte Branson, who directed a couple in Wayne. Like, we're all constantly talking. about how do we elevate and layer every piece of this. So that it's not just, you know what I mean? There's so much content. And we really all worked very hard to fill the show with the light. And have it be something that, you know, hopefully if you like it,

maybe you revisit it in a couple of years and like, actually you like it even more than you did last time because now you're coming to it with an understanding of where the destination is. And, you know, each of those character journeys, every line everyone says is, is there for a reason and connects to something else. And there's references and cross-references to everything within the show. And if people find it to be a rich text,

that would be sort of the highest aspiration and goal for us. Let's talk about one of the clearest references that's in the finale, which is to a chapter we keep coming back to when we talk about this, which is the mirror of Galadryl, right? So we get Halberin, Halangal in the Mine Palace on the raft, and the stormy sea turns into flat. you know, mirror. We get direct line quotes from Galadriel's famous, you know, you will set up a queen speech. Can you talk about that moment, which is so iconic for film watchers because of

Kate Blanche's performance, but also there's a lot of stuff that's in that chapter that, you know, doesn't make it into the Jackson film that is also really rich text about Sauron and Galadriel's connection. Can you talk about the meaning of that chapter? for this story. I would say it's the inspiration for the entire show. There's certainly a couple things there. One, Howell's first line to Galadriel. He says, the tides of fader flowing.

You know, yours may be hitting out or in, which Galadriel says when the ring comes into her domain, she says the tides of fader flowing. And, you know, so we thought it would invest it with new meaning. If people could say, like, oh, my gosh, that's something that he said to her when they first met. And now the ring is coming to her. if she's saying it, she's repeating it all these thousands of years later. So it's a fun

sort of like, you know, giving something a new meaning from the text. But then also there's, you know, a close reading that, you know, we, I think, Patrick, I think, was one who brought it in for our morning quote one morning because we, you know, tried to, you know, would start every morning with a talking quote where, you know, whether it was one of us or one of our writer's distance or just one of our writers would just come in and say here's something I was reading that is inspiring me in and it would just become our kickoff for the day. And so Patrick came in one morning with this quote from Miragaladro, which is, I, let's see, I perceive the dark lord and know his mind, or at least all of his mind that concerns the elves.

And ever does he grope after me and seek to know my mind, but still the door is shut. And, you know, we just thought that was just loaded with all kinds of implications. You know, the language, you could, you know, parse the verbs and look at how specific they are. but, you know, the idea that still the door is shut. He gropes. He gropes ever. Yeah. And, you know, but still the door is shut.

You know, like, okay, so it's, that really spoke to us of like, okay, this has been an ongoing thing. And it spoke to us of layers of history there and that she knows him. It's not she just knows about him or like, you know, understands, like, you know, what he's about, but, like, she knows him. So we said there's a relationship here. And then it became, okay, well, how do you then do a relationship? you know, if you were just to do, you know, high gladriol and Sauron, like, there's no relationship because obviously she would know who he was and just, you know, so we said like, okay, we know he's

and by the way, if you were to do high gladrilyam anatar, well, now the whole audience knows. So they're ahead of your heroin for however many episodes. You know what I mean? That's not really an option. But go ahead. Yeah, you know, so that just, you know, became part of the way we started saying, like, okay, well, then how do you have the meat in a way that is, you know, hopefully surprising and, you know, play fair with the audience. Some people will know right away, you know, or we'll have a suspicion right away. But some people, you know, might suspect him amongst, you know,

a whole group of people. And some people have no idea and we'll be totally surprised. And we wanted to make it satisfying viewing for all three of those groups. So, yeah, we cast Charlie Vickers. And, you know, we wanted to make it so that everything that he says to her could be true both for Hal Brand and Sauron. You know, you just present a total false persona. So you think, okay, well, I spent an entire season getting a no someone who's not actually

character. When you go back and watch it a second time, like most of the things he says, you know, also resonate on a Sauron level. You've gotten to know Sauron. You know what he's good at. You know what his weaknesses are. You know what makes him angry. You know, you know, you know what he values. You know his tricks. You know his playbook in a way. But to go back to, you know, that moment of, you know, you would have a queen that's in the books and in the films. And I mean, I think that was the seed. The whole thing came from. We were like, what would she have been like 2,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago, what an incredible character to know herself so well to say, I've always wanted this ring, but I know how dangerous I am. And I know the darkness in me and it

would come out. Well, how does she know that? Where does she learn that? Where did she explore that? And then, like, that question just was so compelling to us. It compelled us to go all the way back. And every single thing I think sprouted from that seed. And a couple others, you know, the idea of a halfling and a being falling from the sky was one of the early. early, early ideas. But like that that really was what made us, our imaginations get set aflame with a story that could be told in this era and this time. I'm really curious about something you said.

Another thing you said in the THR interview about thinking about season two or all season going forward and lessons learned from season one. And something that you, J.D. said was that one of the big things we learn was even when it's a small scene, it always has to tie in to the large. stakes and that there are things that did or didn't work in season one according to that sort of maybe new guiding principle that you set up for yourself. I love a small moment. I love a small moment between characters that maybe doesn't feel big and grand and consequential, but is emotionally consequential. So I'm curious, if you look back at season one,

what is the sort of platonic ideal of a moment that feels small but still ties back to those larger stakes. Like, what is the right balance coming out of season one? I would say, I think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. Oh, go ahead, Jeannie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you referenced one earlier on, you know, the sort of, you referenced the B side of which the A side is, Norian the strangers sit and talking about walnuts and, you know, migrations and, you know, where they go from place to place. And, you know, that turns into a conversation that is about the sort of nature of the stranger's soul and, you know, perils and good. And, you know, so it's a delightful tiny little character scene, but also ties into, well, what is the stranger? And the

stranger's choice about what he is is going to have major implications for the, the, um, in the middle earth. And so that's one that, you know, sort of perfectly walks the line between those two of being small and intimate, but also tying into something that feels much larger. And what I was going to say as quickly is not to put words in your mouth, but I think, think we are totally with you. Some of our favorite, favorite stuff is like very small and intimate. And that's not us in any way like being like next time it's all going to be effing battles and fights and bubble like, no, no, no. But it's more like, you know, I think there were things in the writing season. The things we're talking about are not in the show, right? Like, but there

was like just to name one thing. Like, you know, there was more around Isseldor and does he want to become a sailor or not. And it like, it just like when you hold that up against, you know, life and death in the Southlands, you're like, okay, do I care if this kid becomes, joins the Navy? It feels small. And, and, and, and that's a journey that could be an entire season of television on many shows. But when it's Lord of the Rings, it's always got to come back to good and evil, light and darkness, fate of middle earth, fate of your people, you know, it weirdly, it's very hard to invest someone in, you know, does this kid want to, want to become a sailor or not? It just felt small. And there were other things like that that we tried in the writing,

that then when you put it in the world of Lord of the Rings and you put all those stories against each other, you go, okay, hold on. It somehow has to be of existential, Lord of the Rings the Middle Earth stakes. And that's really more, I think, what you meant. But also knowing that, right that like a tiny moment like the two of them in the walnuts becoming a conversation about good and evil is one of our favorite scenes we can now write to that we can write to what we feel are the show's strengths you know we're never going to please everybody but i think we're very grateful that a lot of people who like the shows seem to see the same strengths and weaknesses in it that we do and and if you like it round one you're going to like it even more round two we think

and and hopefully if round one it didn't quite get there like give us another shot round two and And hopefully it'll be right down the middle for you. I love that. We got this really brilliant email for one of our listeners about the map of Middle Earth. They wrote in about one of the maps that is in the show and how as like a Tolkien Purist, he was looking at the map of the Southlands and he was like, what is all this stuff on here that's not on Tolkien's map? I don't know how I feel about it.

And that in the battle, the Epsic battle, you know, a vocabwe, you know, a book. It kind of erupts and, you know, a lake gets drained and towns are wiped out. And basically the map is set to the way that it looks, you know, in Tolkien's world, like, erasing your own footprint to put the world the way that Tolkien readers are more familiar with it. And I was wondering if you could think about that. Is that sort of like a larger guiding principle about like where the borders are, where we bend, where we break in terms of how you. you can tell the story in the margin of what exists from Tolkien.

Yes, absolutely. You know, I think there will be quite a few things that, you know, whether it's characters or realms or, you know, relationships that, you know, people, you know, if we were to start off exactly with everything the way it is in the third age, then the story would be completely flat. There we know no development, no growth. You know, there are certain things that are sort of sketched or hinted at in the second age.

that will sort of take. But then there are other things that are just kind of a, you know, a little bit of a jump ball where you can you can say, okay, like, what might this have been in the second age? And how, you know, will it develop in a way that is potentially surprising and satisfying? And, you know, you always try to do it in as tilkingy in a way as possible. You don't just like, you know, go out of the resurrection and do something that feels like it came out of a totally different world. But, you know, some of the delight is what are the unexpected paths that lead us to the

things that we know and love and are familiar? you know, Kelleborn. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, you know, she's supposed to have a husband

and a kid. It's like, well, of course. You know what I mean? Like she's supposed to be the lady in the wood. It's like,

yeah, that's the, yes. Like, it has been, you know, one of the more discouraging aspects was,

is some portion of the audience, I think that, you know, we felt the show was for didn't, didn't want to, you know, go on that journey.

They, they wanted it to already, already be what they think it's supposed to be. And that, you know, surprised us when we would hear people who would say that. We're like, oh, really? Like, like, you know, because for us as viewers, when you're doing a sequel or a prequel, we're just sick of seeing a repetition or a reference or something you already know. Or like, it's like, our thing is like, can it be a good story, even if it didn't tie into the other story? And then at the end, when it does, hopefully it's really delightful and satisfying. That was always sort of the mission.

statement, you know? When you do something big in that regard, when you do something big like the mythereal origin story, which I think is one of those moments that, you know, divides audience. Some people are like, this is interesting. And some people are like, I am unfamiliar with this, you know? So is making a choice like that exciting for you? Like, we get to create some Middle Earth mythology or is it nerve-wracking for you as you do it? I think the answer is both.

you know, with that one in particular, you know, someone that came from story challenges, we said, okay, you know, eventually the rings are going to be made, you know, and have, you know, this, like, power to them. And like, so that you could just say comes from a sort of mystical, you know, sort of ethereal magic from the unseen world. But we said, like, is there a way we can actually, like, make it concrete in a story?

And, you know, so we said, okay, well, if the elves are fading and if the light of Valinor is what they need, you know, And so they have to go back to Valanor, me in the light of Alonore, or, you know, like, have that lights over like, okay, what would be a way that you could sort of bridge those two? And how would rings be sort of involved in that? Why would rings sort of hit pause on Elvin Fading as they sort of in the lore? And so at least they said, like, okay, okay, okay, how do you connect to these couple things? He said, okay, well, you know, how do you know, the light of Valanor and the trees, you know, the light of the trees goes to the Silmerals. And we said, like, what if, like, you know, there's a missing link between Silmerals and rings. And we said, okay, well, like, you know, let's do it in a way where we're sort of like, you know, not like, just completely. So you say like, okay, it's an apocrypal story. Maybe you believe it. Maybe you don't. Right, right. You know, to have a sort of like, you know, an out for people who want to say, no, no, no, that's not canon. But like for people who want to say like, oh, cool, you know, could the third similar,

there's one similar to get lost in the ocean, one that, you know, it's up in the sky with the head end. And then like one that was buried in the earth. Could the one that have been buried in the earth could have sort of like possible, you know, fate of it have been that it was buried in the earth, you know, through this kind of a story. Like, you know, could have been a sort of all. version of that silver rolls history. And for us, we thought it was potentially interesting.

But we're also, you know, the other thing too is, you know, we're trying to make a very esoteric and hard to relate to idea for a general audience, which is elves fading. Yeah. And they need rings to stop the fading into something

that functions in a way that if you don't know anything about Lord of the Rings, you're like, okay, they want the magic thing, but they don't want to give it. Okay, all right. Do you know what I mean? Like we're trying to walk this line where, you know, it's not just vague existential elf drama. It's like a ticking clock. You know what I mean?

How do you do that in a way that honors the spirit of Tolkien and his magic and while still giving you it out? And I mean, it's a tricky balance. And that's certainly one of the bigger risks we felt helped at the end of the day, you know, but it's tough. The last question I want to ask you, this has been sort of some of our favorite moments in going through the journey of this season. is thinking about our favorite moments from Tolkien, whether it's the books or the films or a Led Zeppelin song or whatever the case may be. And I was going to ask you this, but I wanted to take one option off the table because I know you already told me way back when we talked to the beginning of this, how you were so glad to be working together on this, how you would cite that I'm glad you're with me, here with me, Sam, the end of all things, sort of. that is your fellowship, the two of you as you create this.

So I'm taking that option off the table. You can't say that. But is there another Tolkienian moment that just, you know, is at the center of your heart? Well, my favorite moment, and we used it in episode six, Sam and Frodo are at Kirithungal

and, you know, Frodo is sleeping and Sam sees a star. You know, he's like in this low moment and he sees through the clouds for a moment, one star. There is light and high beauty forever. The shadow is a brief and passing thing. you know, that moment is sublime, I feel. It's my favorite moment in the books.

And, you know, it hasn't been done on film. And so we felt it was fair game. Let's get a little more Tolkien in there and used it as a pre-battle thing in the sixth episode. But I love that moment. I think it sort of has all the best of Tolkien in it, you know? And it's a Sam moment. So come on.

Yeah, exactly. How about you, J.D? I think no matter who you are on planet Earth, everyone at some time feels like they're carrying the ring. that's why it's so universal. I don't care what, you know, background you come from, what country you come from,

like, you know, being human is hard. And sometimes we feel that we're carrying burdens that are just beyond our strengths. And, you know, we sort of like, you know, look at our lot or look at whatever that burden is. We say, like, I wish this hadn't happened. I wish that hadn't come in my time. And so I find Gandalf's advice,

just ever, evergreen to Frodo. when he says, so to all of it see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that's given to us. Like that, you know, I feel like that it's just, it is a well that never runs dry. You can say, okay, like, this is my burden. This is what I'm carrying today.

You know, what am I going to do with it? Well, as you carry the ring into season two, which hopefully doesn't always feel like a burden, but it's often a joy. Thank you again for chatting with me for this season television. I really appreciate it. Really, thank you. I think it sounds like J.D. was already getting into it when I got on, but really, like, you know, we are incapable of not paying attention to the response to the show, at least so

far. And you and your cohort have been some of our favorite audience members. Really, you guys are really seeing a version of the show that is very close to the version that we hope people would see, and that really, really means a lot. But you were on to Hal pretty early, I think, right? like immediately. We did float it as an, yeah, Anthony Bresden and I did float. Like, oh, I will just say this. You're extremely solid poker faces

when we asked you that back in January is the only reason I ever doubted it, honestly. Because I was like, I asked them, and I over a Zoom call, and I saw their faces, and you guys just neutral. What was it like for you in that moment when we said that?

I know Bres wants to ask you that, too. I'm glad it felt that way. In real life, I don't play poker because I have a terrible poker face. I'm a horrible liar. Like, if you ask me, like, you know, it's just like, yes, you know, there's this like, there's this goofy smile and I can't help us talk to laugh and I'm like really like, you know, try to hold something in. But like in that one for whatever reason, we were just able to respond, you know, very neutrally. But I don't know, Patrick. No, no. It was actually interesting because that was our first real interview about the show. thank you for doing that and for writing so lovely article and it's been a long journey and years since then. But no, but it was like, I was like, okay, they're totally on to him,

which is great because I think we felt like a large portion of the audience would be onto him from maybe the minute one. You know what I mean? And the show is designed to reward that. If you think he might be the guy, that's a version of the show that is totally legit. It's not...

It's really fun. Kaiser Sose, where it's like, if you know who it is, there is nothing to watch. It's like, you know what I mean? Like there's a whole, you know, and I hope you felt that way, you know. But it was like, okay, people seem to be picking up on what we want to pick up on, you know. The first time you see him, his first shot in introduction is with one eye deliberately. You know, like, it's all there. It's really fun.

When he like stops outside the smithy, we were just like, you know, and as. We knew that was one. Yeah. Oh, my God. We're really pushing it here, you know, like. Or like all the times he's wreathed in fire and just like all it's just like it's honestly fun. It's genuinely fun. Totally.

But then in the end, did you feel like the plane came in for a landing satisfactorily? I love the mind palace stuff because like I was like, oh no, I want them to keep talking. But Galadryl does not want to talk. And then you went into the mind palace. I was like, oh, yes, we get to keep talking about this. This is great. He's very hideous. He's very dangerous.

Okay. Anything else we want to say about Rings of Power? Power. Season one. I don't think so, Joe. I had an absolute blast. You know, I would channel my inner gandolph and say, I will not say, do not wait for not all tears are an evil.

It was such a joy. It was such a thrill to be in Middle Earth with you. I really, really, really cannot wait for season two. I'm already excited for the first posters they put out. The first kernels of information that we get about season two, our teaser trailer breakdowns. Like there's so much to look forward to ahead. I really cannot wait to keep having this adventure with you.

And I think that the only way that I can end it is to say we do not say goodbye. We say Namare. It means more than simply farewell. It means go towards goodness. And I cannot wait to go towards goodness with you again. If I turn around, Mallory, I turn around now I'll never leave. I didn't get a chance. I mean, you were sort of a little alarmed that didn't, Wayman,

Wayman does not sound like Ian McKellen. So we don't know whether or not he's playing golf. I just, I really like his fully verbal energy. I think his very soothing presence and I'm really excited to see more from him. Anyway, that's not the point. The point is the world's not that wide, Mallory. It's just we're so bleeding and small. That has been Rings of Power. Thanks. As always,

heroically on this Friday afternoon to Carlos Scherboga, our producer. Thank you, Carlos. Incredible stuff from Carlos. Thank you, as always, George and Rickupal for his additional production work. And to Joe Me a dinner on the social, we'll be back on Sunday for Talk the Thrones with Chris Ryan. Marier. Bye. All.

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