House of R - 'The Rings of Power' Season 2 Mini-Mailbag

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

The journey is best not ventured alone. Thankfully Jo and Mal are here to answer all of your burning questions about this upcoming season of 'The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power.' Join them as they discuss meet-cutes, who might become a ring wraith, and even a little talk of Dante. Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robisnon Producers: Steve Ahlman Video Editor: Stefano Sanchez Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business to keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping.

Then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. I'm afraid. And Rohan will answer.

I'm Jonah Robinson. That was the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings film you just heard, but we are talking about Rings of Power. I'll explain myself at a second. Join me today to answer some of your pressing questions about Rings the Power, season two, episodes 1 through 3 or other things Rings of Power related. It is Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. How you doing? Joe.

You tell old Maldry. everything you know about Sauron. It's mailback time. It's mailback time. Wow, Mildrigg. We'll see if that that sticks for you. We're mailbagging today. And why did we start with the beacons being lit?

There isn't a ton of mail-related stuff. All we have is the High King sending a message that did not get where it needed to go, you know, in the Rings of Power. So I couldn't find a ton of mail. No one's sending Ravens. Ravens would solve a lot of problems in Middle Earth is all I have to say. So, you know, think about it. Invest.

We could just text Kellebrimbor right now? BTW. That hot guy. Heads up. It's the Dark Lord. Sorry to tell you this. You are entertaining the Dark Lord. Okay.

What are we here today to do? We're here to answer your questions that you. might have sent to hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. That's what we're doing. Elsewhere in the ringer verse, The Midnight Boys, Poo-Pew! I believe we're also mailbagging today. I believe that's the case, or this week as it were.

Star Wars Outlaws' First Impressions from ButtonMash Team, Terminator Zero coverage from the Mint Edition, where, as I mentioned last week, Timothy Oliphant is voicing a Terminator. I've heard it's really good. I haven't checked it out yet, but I've been hearing for people that it's like one of the better. I mean, the bar is low on the Terminator franchise sometimes, but apparently this is like a really good timey, why me story. And you and I love. Love a timey-wimey story. A timey-wimey story.

Love. As for us, we'll be back at the end of the week, of course, covering episode four of rings of power. We're in a real rings space for a couple weeks here. And then, you know, Agatha is showing up. There's going to be witch stuff. There's going to be all kinds of stuff. But we get to, like, really dedicate ourselves to rings for a couple weeks, which is fun. How are you feeling about it, Mallory?

Thrilled. I plan to go right from talking about rings of power with you to talking about the Orioles claiming their World Series ring into talking about the Ravens claiming their Super Bowl ring. So it's rings all the time for me. Rings o'clock. Rings o'clock. How are the Orioles doing? Should we talk about that?

Well, you know, it's. They're hanging on. Okay. The injury curse. It's like, it's like the blight on the great tree, you know, the injuries. So I just need a little, we need a little that me thrill. Okay. To come into play here.

Me through for the final push. For the final push. Get healthy for the playoffs. And then who knows, who knows, anything can happen in October. Well, if you've got a diplomat like El Rondescend to the doors, we'll see if we can make that happen. Okay. Oh, but that's a lot going on.

Yeah. Sauer. It's Terminator. Rings of Power. All this kind of stuff. How can folks you track? of everything that's happening. Thanks for asking.

Here's the rundown. One, follow the Pots. Follow House of R. Follow the Ring ofverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Then follow the Ring ofverse YouTube channel because full video episodes of HouseVar and Midnight Boys are available for you

on both Spotify and the Ring ofverse YouTube channel. While you're at it, follow the Ring ofverse on the Social Media platform of your choosing. We are on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and then Joe already mentioned the inbox, This is a mailbag episode so you know the inbox is open. Send us your emails. Send us your thoughts on this Rings of Power season.

Send us your thoughts on Agatha, Penguin, Craven the Hunter, Venom. Beetle-Doose. Beetle-Jose. Whatever's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything. Love it. Okay.

Also, a slight other promo, I guess, while I'm here. Yeah. We did not cover Alien Romulus, and you haven't seen it yet, right? I know you've seen every other alien movie. Okay. Trial by Content is covering Alien Romulus and the art or curse of digital resurrection over on trial by content. So I've had some people asking me for my Alien Romulus take. I don't know why they want that for me.

But if you do, trial by content is where you will find that this week. Okay. Wonderful. It's not quite Disa and Duran, but our listeners, Dina and Donnie, are celebrating an 8th anniversary. and Donnie asked if we could just shout out Dina on their anniversary. So happy anniversary to Dina and Dany. Yeah. Happy anniversary, Donnie.

Exactly. They had this like really sick inflatable dragon thing at their anniversary party. Very cool. Very House of Rourg. Like a bouncy castle? Like a... It was like an inflatable dragon that you could pose with. Oh, fantastic.

Yeah. Right. Why don't we have one of those? I don't know. Why isn't in the background right now is my question. Okay. And then just a fun fact. I forgot to mention it on.

Friday, but I think it's fun. Benjamin Walker, who is playing, hiking Gil Gallad, also is doing the voice for Damrod the Hill Troll. And I hope similar to, similar to the video footage we got of Benedict Cumberbatch crawling around the floor as Smog, I can't wait to see Ben Walker just really going for it in the sound booth playing the Hill Troll. What do you think was more exciting, getting to sing a beautiful, like, dirge or getting to play a hill troll. I mean, singing in Quania is always pretty exciting, but I don't know.

Like 1A, 1B? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a tie. It's a real tie. Okay, spoiler warning today. This is not really, we are mainly keeping this to like season two episodes one through three. Again, our spoiler warnings on Rings of Power kind of complicated.

We'll get into it like fully on the episode four breakdowns or what we plan to talk about. As Mal mentioned last Friday, we're not going to pretend that you. haven't seen the Lord of the Rings trilogy by Peter Jackson or you are not aware of the basic plot points of those films. But there's some stuff that happens between this show and that that is in the text that we won't get too much into until I think our last question, maybe two of the questions we have today. And we will give you warning. We'll make it there. Does that sound right and fair and just, Mallory Rubin? I think so. This is always a tougher one. But yeah, if we're going to get into some future things.

We'll note it. And if they feel like things that you probably already know about, then safe waters, warm waters. Come on in, move your hand around, watch the fish jump and, you know. Pull the fish out of the water in a somewhat creepy way. Cured Annie's always with us.

Okay. Based on a dumb slack joke I made when we said we were doing a mailbag episode. I thought it was brilliant. Genuinely. This is the audio that's taking us into our mailbag. Shah. Baggins.

It's a Shire Mailbaggins. That's what we're doing today. Coined by you. Here we are. In Slack. Enourished by you. That was piercing in the eardrum. I got to say.

That came in quite hot. Steve is a gem and does a lot of pre-record audio calibrations with us because he's always thinking of our well-being. and rarely are we surprised then once we sit down to record. But that one took my breath away. As the NASGOL are want to do. Yeah. Fitting.

So we're starting sort of with like a basic. We've talked about this a few other times before, but just in case there are new folks joining us. We thought we started with this question from Sarah. Sarah, who thanked us for many, many podcasts. I mean, it's a mailbag. We know the cost coming and yet we're surprised.

Came in hot. Okay. Sarah who thanked us for hours and hours of podcasts because she just, we hear a lot from new moms who are like up all hours of the night and they're up with their kids and new dads too. And they're like, thanks for the gazillion hours of podcasting helping me through that. So anyway, Sarah who just had a baby was asking us, when did these stories, meaning Tolkien, come into your lies? When would be an appropriate time to read the text with like her daughter, Sarah's daughter? And do they make kid friendly thinking picture book versions that Tolkien fans? endorse. Malar Rubin, what do you want to say?

Okay, why don't we start with our respective origins and then we can hit the next part of that? Yeah, it's nice to chat about this again for anyone who's new to the Rings party. I love Lord of the Rings. I've loved Lord of the Rings for a long time. And my dad was a massive Tolkien fan, massive. So it's like one of his favorite stories ever, something that he was always fond of and talking

about when I was a kid, my parents were divorced. So at my dad's house, there's this little bookshelf in my room that my dad built, and he put, filled with books and like, no pressure, no nothing. They were just there for me, like, waiting to be discovered when I wanted to discover them. And The Hobbit was one of those books. I was in elementary school, a very slowly developing reader. And I was in, like, in fourth grade, starting fifth grade, like a lower reading group. And when I got bumped up to the higher reading group, the Hobbit was the first book that I read as part of that reading group. And so, like, not only do, I love the story and I love the world, but I have this, like, really keen and strong and powerful association with it is like when I started to build confidence

as a reader, you know, and like on my own feel like more emboldened to spend time with the printed page and reading and like learning and discovering. So that was a little. So that was. I was a little bit of really like meaningful and wonderful. That was fifth grade. And then we read fellowship in middle school. And I was, I, I was so riveted by it. I couldn't put it down. I like got in trouble one day at Hebrew school because I was reading it under my desk because I didn't want to put it away. And that's like the early days with the books. How old were you say you were? So that was like, Hobbit was when I was 10. And then when I read fellowship, it must have been, it must have been seventh grade reading. So, yeah, that would have been when I was 12.

And we didn't, I don't recall us reading the other two books in the trilogy as part of like our middle school reading curriculum only fellowship, which is a little odd. So then I would have read those for the first time on my own after that. The movies, the Peter Jackson films came out when I was in high school. Obviously, they came out as we all remember fondly. Just like fucking clockwork, December after December three years in a row. They don't do it like that anymore, folks. They don't do it like that anymore. What a time that was.

And I went to see each of those movies with my dad and my stepmom at the theater. It was incredible. I have this really fond memory. We went back to my dad's house after my stepmom was like super worried about Sam, who among us, right? And I just remember I was standing around like the little island in the kitchen and my dad saying, oh, honey, there's more in store for Samwise Gamgee. It was just like a thing the family loved to share.

That's so sweet. Now every holiday season used to be Thanksgiving. the last couple years it ended up being like the Christmas New Year window. Adam and I watch, yeah. It could be your eye. Like my inclination was just because of like limited holiday, free time and scheduling. But I think it's probably the Joanna Robinson effect. If I, if I stare at all the facts and all the variables, Adam and I watch the extended

editions every year. It's like our favorite annual tradition. So it's just one of the worlds I love most. And it's the first story I remember really like falling in love with. The first world and fictional universe that I couldn't. wait to go back to and revisit and think about and spend time in and share with people I loved. So it's a very special story to me. It's one of the joys of my life to get to visit Middle Earth with you. Joanna, please tell us about your Tolkien origin story. My origin starts a little later.

I was not a Tolkien reader when I was younger. We read like CS Lewis definitely. My sister might have read Tolkien, but I was not reading Tolkien. When I got to college my freshman year of college, my boyfriend freshman year had like this Lord of the Rings poster on his ceiling, which like of the books, because the movies weren't out yet, of like all the different like characters. And so he was like really into it and and like wanted to share it with me. And so then I like went to like walked over to the borders of Barnes & Noble or whatever and like bought my first of now many box sets of Lord of the Rings that I have. And I read the books and that was like and then the movie started coming out like one after another. I would watch them. I would go home for Christmas every year and watch them with my high school friends. You know, we would come home for Christmas and we'd line up at this

one theater and stand in line. And I remember for Return of the King, it was raining. So the whole theater, you know, we stood in line for a really long time. The whole theater, this is a massive, massive theater in Inborn County that's now closed. But like the whole theater was just full of like people who were just like steaming like because the theater was super warm and we were all cold and wet from the rains of all of our jeans were like yeah i was like that's how we all sat through richard of the king worth it wonderful um goodness i do remember similar to your your story about sam i remember i went to go see fellowship with my family like you know one of like because i saw it multiple times at theaters obviously and um i was i remember we were out to sushi

with my mom my dad my sister and uh and my mom was like okay just tell me is like it's getting off really dead. And I was just like, we were like, do you, I mean, do you want us to tell you? Stay tuned to find out. Like, do you want to know? It's like one of my early interactions with someone being like, explain someone who has read the books, what happens to, you know, etc. Anyway. And then, yeah, I just loved those films so much.

I loved the books so much. And then I started rereading them, rereading them. And then rewatching the films every year at Christmas, they extended editions. and that is also one of my favorite holiday traditions. It's funny. It's so my nephew. So I don't know, like, sort of like, how old was I when I started ring? You know, I don't have that data.

But sort of trying to calibrate your ages with my nephew who's 13 had previously tried Lord of the Rings and didn't, like, get into it. But tried again now. And he's a big reader, really, really big reader. But read it now and really likes it. Or I don't know if it really likes it, but is it liking it a lot? lot. And so I would say around there, like 12, 13, because the hobbits for younger ages, right? You could definitely do the Hobbit earlier, for sure. And then like, I would say 12, 13, something like that, depending on your meeting level and your interest or whatever, is for Lord of the Rings. As for, like,

stuff that's kid-friendly, I would hardly recommend the Bakshi animated Lord of the Rings as an early entry point, 1988 animated, Lord of the Rings. Very fascinating artifact. But kind of just a really gentle way to get into the world. Any suggestions from you, Mallory Urban? Beyond that, which I also agree is worth checking out. Not really. I have in general, I think a difficult time gauging the right age to read something.

I'm always fascinated now. Like my friends who have kids, I am so interested in when. they choose to introduce their kids to Harry because it's pretty consistently a lot younger than I would have guessed just based on, you know, the emotional trauma that awaits. But I just have, I'd have no feel for that. And I think, like, obviously some of that is what your particular child seems ready for and inclined toward. In terms of, like, illustrated editions, you know, there are a number of different

illustrated editions of the text, but it's different. I think the spirit of the prompt, like picture books. Yeah, like, because I, I mean, I definitely had versions of like, I have a book somewhere on my shelf that's like classics to read aloud to your children, which like my dad would like read like kid versions of like Romeo and Juliet and like whatever else to us that, you know, in language that we could understand, but we would understand like the basic plot of. Yeah.

So I don't have any additions. One thing I think is nice is like, you know, there are, again, there are a number of different illustrated editions over the years. They're like the Allen Lee illustrated editions. Just the last few years, they came out with those newer illustrated editions. Now, for like, they're like tomes, you know, so I don't know that like an 11-year-old is going to sit there with that open on their lap, but they have, they actually have Tolkien's illustrations in them. And I think it is really, like one of the things I really loved when I was younger was to look at the maps. We've talked about this before. But, you know, you get a obviously like a, a

in a sense of place in the relative, like, proximity of these locations. But it's just like you see these sketches and these illustrations of what the world is supposed to look like. And it really, like, sparks and animates your curiosity further. So even if that's not necessarily something that you're going to sit down and thumb through every single page of on the first go, I think it would be fun to look through those. I don't know. And I mean, like, The Hobbit, again, the Lord of the Rings is sort of dense, linguistics.

and pretty scary in points. The Hobbit films are kind of scary in points in ways I don't think they need to be. But like the Hobbit as a book might be like a fun read aloud. It starts, it started with Tolkien telling his children bedtime stories. It's sort of like how this world developed in the first place. How about an audiobook for the whole family? Oh yeah. Andy Circus audiobooks are really, really good, you know, very, very good.

I was just I was just a. re-listening to his Tom Bombadale. Actually, in the House of Tom Bombadil chapter of fellowship. And I was just like, he's really going. Andy Circus is really going for it. Because Tom Bobadil sings for like 75% of that chapter. So Andy Circus is like, okay, here we go. Great stuff.

Yeah. So, I mean, I, we're always excited to, you know, hear people announce, you know, new generations of kids getting into these stories is really, really fun. I will say one other thing, I think getting into Tolkien in college, and I took a fantasy literature class and a children's literature class where Tolkien came up in both of those. And then I took a history of the English language class where he came up. My professor in that class loved to bring up Tolkien. And so I think that's where, like, connecting Tolkien with like scholarship, I think really came in really early for me. But certainly you don't have to take an academic approach. You could just sort of like enjoy the wild adventure of it because that is all waiting for you. in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and the Silmarillion, you know, once you get into it. Yeah, we build toward that. We'll get there. Okay.

Next question comes from Andrea. It was like less of a question and more of a point, but I tacked a question onto it in order to smuggle it into the mailbag. The mailbaggins. So here we are. Andrea wrote, of possession and yearning. According to the philosophy of Tolkien by Peter Kreeft. I am hoping I'm pronouncing that correctly. In Tolkien's work, there are two longings.

Sensuch, or the mysterious longing for we know not what, as the stranger so perfectly encapsulates when he says to Norrie, a glimmer, a longing, a feeling I can't remember or even name, just beyond the sunset. It immediately evokes Valinor, but also something that we as human seek. It is reflected in Kyrden's longing of Valinor, while he looks across the bay into the sunset. Beautiful images, no need for dialogue as we sense that longing of Aragorn in the Peter Jackson

movie scene passing next to the Argonath. The past, the glory of kings. Wow. You have to. I feel like you have to say, The past, the glory of kings of old. This yearning is not physical. It is always out of reach like death what lies beyond the sea. The second longing is that a possession, not power of the power of the future.

flesh but over flesh just as Sarah became the ring and Ghalom lost his sense of self to the ring once we yearn for something to possess it ends up possessing us in turn. We are now undone by that which we covet. So my question to you, Mallory, and the way I'm justifying putting this in mailbag, where else should we be on the lookout for this theme across like the set of characters we have in the Rings of Power season two? You want to go first? Yeah.

I kind of wait to just read the beautiful email again. That was just delightful to listen to. Yeah. So I would say pretty much everywhere. Like this is an idea. Well, we'll go through some of the regions and character sets here for some top contenders. But this is an idea we talk about a lot, not only in Lord of the Rings stories, but fantasy stories more broadly. Yeah.

Would you say that Anakin is on your mind reading? Maybe. Reading this question? Listening to this question, it's like impossible not to. to think of this across our wider storytelling tapestry here. So I think like something we like to do is look for not only like the when and the where, but where the nobler former can perhaps be at risk of morphing into the ladder. Yeah.

And then if the latter, when present, ever had origins in the former and like what we can learn from that. So that's always something to keep in mind. we have some iconic moments, of course, from the text in the films where this very threat is top of mind for characters who we or other characters in the story trust, like, I don't know, let's just return to

Frodo offering a couple people to ring for a second and seeing how they respond and then that's a good table setter for examining some of the season two consideration sets. Sam and Galadriel. Let's talk about Sam. We can't go more than four minutes on a pub without talking about Sam. It's not going to happen today.

It'll never happen. The best. Fellowship. I wish you'd take in his ring, Sam said. You'd put things to rights. You'd stop them digging up the gaffer and turning him adrift. You'd make some folk pay for their dirty work. I would, she said.

That is how it would begin, but it would not stop with that. So this is always the risk. right? How did Gandalf respond to Frodo tempting him? What does that temptation represent? The way that power can perhaps tip the scales, not only of an outcome, but of your own morality, do not tempt me. I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Okay, so this is like elemental to how we think about the choices characters make in the world. One is just like much like we won't go through every character. Obviously we don't have time for that, but kind of in like lightning around style, much like we did for our top moments for fresh or let's go like by character

sense. So let's start with the Harfoots and the stranger. I would say that Norrie is like as firmly rooted in that former camp as like any character in the story. If we're breaking it into the two buckets in the question there. This is like our origin with Norrie. I've ever wondered. Wondered. What's outside? Yeah. Haven't you ever wondered what else is out there? Or even like after discovering the stranger in his little meteor fire pit, it's like there's a reason this happened like I was supposed to find him. Me, there are other characters where if we would hear that kind of like, I am centered with great meaning and glory and purpose would be worried,

but that's not how we feel with Nori because we understand from the beginning that Nori is looking for a sense of the world, right? Have a little working theory. I'm going to wait until we get through all the power of the, not power sets, all the regional and sets of characters. But I have a, I think the Rings of Power is offering up a thesis on this. And I would, I would love to flip that by you. Okay. Go for. Fantastic. Thrilled. Okay. Obviously, Poppy, we've talked about Wandering Day as much as we've talked about maybe anything in the story so far. I trade all I've known for the unknown ahead. What could better sum up that sense of spirit and yearning? The Stranger, that's the example and the question in that beautiful like adventure. they must be shared moment in the finale that we love to talk about so much, the setup from the stranger for that idea was,

but times our paths are laid before us by powers greater than our own. In those moments, it's our task to make our feet go where our hearts wish not to tread. So there's like a healthy trepidation there, like accounting for the fear, the risk of the unknown, and then the spirit of adventure that's entwined with that. I feel like those characters, we're in like a relatively comfortable place. What are your thoughts on the Harfuts? Yes. I mean, I think part of this question, like sort of baked into this question that we're considering, and this is separate from my working theory, is this idea of like how vulnerable is this character to corruption or temptation or seduction, right?

So like if they're firmly rooted in that sort of pure idea of longing, you know, then perhaps that. they're less vulnerable to that seduction of Sauron or what any kind of ring might offer them. So, yeah, I mean, I would say my question around the stranger, and I don't know how much of this is sort of baked into them trying to constantly make us worried that he is some sort of malignant force to some kind. But his lack of control over his power, if that makes him vulnerable to something. Do you know what I mean? Because he's like, he's very concerned about that. Absolutely. You know?

Yeah. But in terms of that longing, I would agree. We're in the safe space. Yeah. The control thing, the control call, I think is a great one. And also just like, again, to go to that Gandalf comp either because a fellow wizard or because he's literally Gandalf, we'll circle back to that, that the wish to wield it would be too great for my strength.

I shall have such need of it. Great perils. Peral. Lie before me. Like, how would you as a. a character and figure of great ability and consequence justify the use of something potentially nefarious. So that's obviously a different thing than the Harfords. No one has yet said of the Harfutts anything quite like Kellebram-Bor saying men are covetous. So different.

Numenor, I have a lot of concerns. When we go to our Numerator characters, I have a lot of concerns. Because that idea of like Valinor or like, you know, the ideal of elven purity or whatever is something that the, at least many of the humans on Nimnor feel so resentful of and covetous of the immortality of the elves experience. For that reason, I'm like least worried right now about Alendial, Miriel, anyone we would firmly. group under Elfriend under the faithful, right? Yeah, yes. I would say then we have, we have kind of like three clusters in Numerar.

We have that cluster. Then we have the like, oh, we're, we're walking on a line and it could tip. I would put a sill door there. And then we have the Farzan, Keman, aiarian camp.

You forgot Bellzegar, my new favorite character. I mean, I know you have them coming in the outline later. Bells. Farazan, I think, is emblematic of the type of figure we should be worried about. Because, like, I know we're talking about what should we worry about for season two. And, you know, we certainly got that, like, it will show the people you are a new kind of ruler for a new day speech about the bolts of fabric with Muriel. But if we look back to, like, I think the really emblematic moment, other than, you know, walking toward the eagle to.

steal an omen would be that conversation with Kemen in the fifth episode last season when Kemen was challenging his father, why aren't you trying to stop this? And Farazahn basically said, like, when all this has ended, Elves will take orders from us and then outlined how all of these things that other characters are thinking about

is the consequential unfoldings for the future of like life itself. It's like, ors, forest, trade, tribute. I wouldn't dare stop that. Like, look at all the ways this can help us. It's about his ambition and his agendas and his potential gain. So that's very second bucket possession seeking to gain in order to benefit directly. That idea of control,

I think. And then control as it's related to fear, right? Yeah. Well, that's part of why I think like Asseldor's in that middle tier in the Numerator set, because, you know, when we heard him say to Estrid in the third episode this season, ever since I felt bound to try to do something singular, something special, I think our hearts were like wrenching. It was such a moving moment, but it, you know, like we talked about on the deep dive, it made me afraid, too. It's like if you're in that kind of headspace, what do you justify to yourself? 100%. In order to be worthy of that legacy. Internal pressure. And it reminds me a lot of Boromir, like Boromir, like, Boromier, who is our quintessential, like, guy we're rooting for, but is the most vulnerable of all the fellowship to

the call of the ring and it's because of this internal pressure that he puts on himself or external pressure from his terrible father to protect Gondor you know so when we hear as we talked about in the last episodes we hear Boromir talk about you know

the white towers of Athelian right and silver trumpets calling you home like that is that that feels that that kind of like you're talking about the pure longing sliding into the more impure longing. That does feel like that sort of beautiful, pure, Curedon sitting on the shore, thinking about the light of Alonore kind of longing.

But then it twists and it turns. And he knows immediately, you know? Like, he knows he fell immediately. And, ugh, the shame. Waramers. Oh, so important to me. Okay. Love Boramare.

It's a gift. Elves. Let's talk about some of the elves. To that point of like fear and need and seeking to preserve or protect make Lyndon great again? I mean perfect transition. Yeah.

So many of our elvish characters want to do good. They have a noble reason or pursuit but the question that ended in the one that Elrond is voicing is can that maybe blind them to the risks, either the risks for them collectively or the risk of what they individually might be vulnerable to? We just go back to, like,

again, our origin with Galadriel, like that conversation that you picked as one of your favorite moments in our season one moments run down. That first episode of season one, that conversation between Galadriel and Elrond, the put up your sword conversation, like, what was Galadriel voicing? The first bucket there is on offer. Sail into Valinor. Allow yourself to receive that. And she said, you would leave them alive in me, right? She is thinking about the inability to finish the quest,

satisfy the quest, live up to her promise, to herself, to her brother. And when she said to Gilgall, in the second episode of this season, yes, he knows my mind and I know his, which is why I must face him, why I alone can slay him, we are alarmed

because you can, we can think of Gladryl as a character who has the capacity to be driven by good and achieve good, but who we know, we know is susceptible to the need to dominate,

to control, to win, to prove to herself and to others that she was, is so messy. She's been messy all season one and the messiness abates. It continues. Does not abate.

It continues. Yeah. Okay. Boy, does it. Speaking of characters, we are concerned about, let's speak briefly of Kella Brimbor. Yeah. Is there a more susceptible character?

No. I mean, he literally says out loud. In episode three to Anatar, I would grant us a space to complete our work. I have spent an age preparing for this. I have apprenticed. I have studied. I have reached the very height of it. my craft. This, this is my moment. No, he will not take it away. We're like half a heartbeat

from just crony my precious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what about El Ron, Joe? Where do you see Elrond? Elron fits into my larger theory. So I want to circle back to him for a minute. Yeah. Okay. The dwarves. We are co-presidents of the Durandisa fan club. We love them. We adore them. We love spending time with him. We said last pod that the episodes are just flat out better when they're in them than when they're not. We would be remiss in our duties as answers of this question if we did not return to the penultimate episode of season one where Disa said one day this would be your kingdom during the fourths, not your brothers, not some other dwarf lord, yours and mine. Together we will rule this mountain and all others before our time is done that methril belongs to us, to you and me. And together one day we are going to dig.

Right. So that would be the kind of possession we're concerned about, Concerning red flags for us. And then also, as we mentioned in the last episode, this fear that Disa expresses over the first three episodes of not being able to hear the rocks, right? So like resonating with the rocks connection to the earth and to the mountain is like in her very core, her very identity. And so that disconnect has, you know, has left her exposed, I think, to other kinds of connections. connections that might come her way. But the dwarf we're most worried about is Papa Dorn, right? Like, this is our main concern, I would say.

And it's fascinating because, like, so we had, during the younger, remind us of Papadurn's warning, right? He said in episode three this season, this power and regina, I don't trust it. You told me once the fate of elves is decided by wiser minds than our own that to try an alter to try and cheat death might lead to an even greater catastrophe. I keep wondering, what if you were right? And we talked about at the time. Cut to Papa Duren at Aragian being like, here's the mithril.

Let's make some rings. Again, it's worrying. So we talked at the time about how it was like there was this fascinating tension, which is very compelling for us as viewers, where like Papa Duren saying, no, we will not help the elves was horrible. It was foul. And yet the fact that he was able to exhibit a note of caution about what it would mean to keep delving and digging and seeking these riches and these pathways to greater achievements was like not something that we were seeing from the characters who maybe had a more open heart for other people. And like the fact that those two things were fractured in the character set, very interesting.

So yeah, Papa Dern, we are worried as always worried in general about it. Everything happening in Cass and Doom full of characters who we love and we are worried. I don't think we need to talk about Sarah and I think we know where he falls on this one. I see no difference. Oh. Okay. Yeah. So he's an interesting one because I think like you start off, I want to save my children.

You won't use us as your slave army. We will find a way to break free of your control. but in episode four of season one, what did he say to Arondere? To untangle it all, would all but require the creation of a new world. But that is something only the gods can do. And I am no God.

At least. Yet? Not yet. I'm sorry. Once you start talking about yourself with somebody on the path laid of goddom, you've fallen into bucket too. You have.

So hit me, with your theory and share your thoughts in Elron. I noticed you mentioned Arande and Theo and that's fine with me. Okay, so listen. We're going to talk about Theo later.

I feel like we can maybe limit it to I'm working on this theory. I don't have all the evidence yet. Obviously, we'll monitor as we go along. I'm curious why we think Duran and Elrond are the most skeptical

of everyone when it comes to Sauron or the rings or any of this. Seemingly the most impervious to this temptation. And there's a part of my sentimental heart that wants to believe that it is because their connection to each other is so strong

that it makes them less vulnerable to this intrusion. And it's not just, you know, and I think also that Disa Duran, I'm hopeful, the Deseeduring connection is part of that as well. But, you know, there's, of all the friendships, I mean, the stranger and Nory and Poppy

are another, like, sort of good example of that tight, tight, close connection between the fellowship that can create the alliance, the last alliance of elves of men, this is something like we're working towards, right? Like, that alliance is what can protect you. And so I think it is important. I was curious, like, Elron being skeptical made sense to me. He's not as vulnerable as Calibrandiaborne. It hasn't been as exposed as Galadryl has been to Hal Brand, who is also Sarin and now Anatar, right? So like, okay. Um, and, And he doesn't have whatever...

Gild every time. He doesn't have whatever pressures Gil Gallid has, right? So that made sense to me as this sort of like objection. But why was he more skeptical than Kierden? Like what, you know, and Kierden, like, that pure longing for Valonore is there. But as you noted when we covered episodes one through three, when he was like, I was wrong, perfection is here. It's not just in Valinor. We don't have to wait for Valinor.

Right. I miss the boat to Valinor and I'm stuck here because the gods told me I had to stay here. But guess what? There's a little bit of perfection here and it's on my finger now. It's the end of Sanjune and Paro. Like heaven is a place on earth just pumps right in. Heaven is a place on my finger. And it sparkles in the light and it's so nice.

Right. So like why is Elrond not susceptible to that? And I just think like that firm anchor of his relationship with Duren and then Duren's skepticism. Like it just like Anatar does not work on him at all. And it's not because he's like. What is this guy? Yeah, it's not like he's a completely invulnerable person walking around.

He has vulnerabilities around his father, around, you know, a dwarf shoving him around in the minds or like whatever it is. But, you know, he's constantly like, where's El Ron? What does El Ron think? Where's Elron? Like that connection, which we loved in season one. I kind of think it just like, you know, I was trying to sort of back, sort of date that into Lord of the Rings.

Like, could I apply that? Where could I apply that in the fellowship? And it's like, you know, other friendships that we love to track. or like Legolas and Gimli who like don't really get involved in the covetous idea of the ring. And their friendship has played up a bit more in the movies for laughs than it is in the books. But like, you know, Sam and Frodo, like Sam can't carry the ring. But I just think there's something about that Sam and Frodo connection. That's what keeps Frodo hanging on when he almost goes off the edge a million different times.

Literally. I don't mean to. Yeah, exactly. So it's just sort of like, I love that. I think that's what we're meant to be tracking here. And I don't think there's any, you know, like, you know, Galadriel certainly doesn't have an anchor elsewise. You know, like, you know, if Fenrod were still alive, maybe Finrod would be. But like, you know, Gil Gallet, as far as I know, doesn't have any friends.

Like, I don't know, you know. Bruttle. Man. These are just things to watch for because I think that's just something that's very important to Tolkien, that the show has latched on to. this idea of friendship as a firm anchor or relationships in general as a firm anchor. So yeah. I love that. I have no notes.

Okay. Beautiful. Fantastic. Speaking of a Seelor, as we kind of were. As we were. As we were. Madeline says, season two is Seildor. His time in battle and Wardor definitely changed him.

I also think emphasizing the bond between him and his horse Barrick, Mallory's favorite character, which seemed more present. here than in season one helps solidify that he is a character we're supposed to root for. This is Seildor is more reflective, more careful in his actions. He's willing to put himself in harm's way to help others, even when it proves unwise for him to do so as evidence when he and Esther had run into the band-ins with a mark of Adar. This version of Seeldoer, who I truly want to root for, who I could see becoming a good king. I think there's a version of the story where I actually sympathized with the Seildor for not destroying the one ring. Maybe.

Like the elves in their three rings, he believes the one ring can be used for good. While that doesn't mean I will support that decision, it adds complexity of the situation that for me has previously always been very black and white. And our listener, Sarah would just like to add this important footnote and another email. Sarah wrote unrelated, but I love that in spite of being covered in dirt and spiderwebs. Silder is looking noticeably hotter this season. I guess we just had to grime him up a bit to go from Bratty Lordling to Aragorn's ancestor, who was about to go on a hero's journey with his trusty steed. It's smart because we love a character on an arc, but also it allowed Halbran, got all the Aragorn

coding in season one, which was clever and well used, but she was saying maybe Acylador is our sort of Aragorn comp in season two. A Seeldoor. Rime him up a bit. I love this.

I'm excited to talk about a seal door. I just think a grime him up a bit should go into the email Hall of Fame. Brad, Brady Lordling as well. Brady Lordling also iconic. Obviously, covered in dirt, grime him up a bit to make them hotter

is one of the, of the many proud Lord the rings on screen traditions. That is one of the proudest, one that we hold most sacred and deer, uh, Aragorn opening the doors while filthy and wounded. By the way, also arriving, reaching Helm Steep thanks to a bod with the horse. Shout out Brigo. While we're talking about Barrick Vigo, our number one horse girl. It's just incredible stuff, incredible stuff. So in terms of the first email, I was thinking like, oh, because I have a lot of of memories of the Asildor Barric Bond from season one.

But I definitely think Madeline is right that there's a notable change because, you know, yeah, he like he, he walks right past the Arien to say hi to Barrick at Sea Guard training. Very cute, very charming. He shares his apple with Barrick on the ship to Middle Earth. We both were like, oh, we love to love a pet. And also we have some questions and feedback and lots of thoughts on apples. but he was not yet fully attuned to the nature of his bond with Barrick,

even though Barrick was attuned to the nature of his bond with Assyldor, because post-battle, pre-volcano corruption, but post-battle. Asil Dore and Alendial in the sixth episode had that conversation about exactly this. Perrick's very worked up. And Alendial says, it's not his pain that's bothering him, but that of his writer. I'm not in pain, Asiel says. Alendale responds, when a horse of Westerners rides into battle, he forms an unbreakable bond with the soldier he bears. In time, they become as one, even knowing the innermost feelings of each other's heart.

And Isildor kind of scoffs at that, right? He's like, you know his feelings? And Alendale says, no, he knows yours. Where did you learn all this? Isseldor asks from your mother. And then there's like a beat. And Asielder says, think you could teach me. And so thinking back to that after reading this question, this felt really meaningful to me because like it's everything that Isildur has experienced in terms of battle and the trauma of battle and the loss of like a friend like Antimo and all of the people they lost.

But there's also this familial aspect to this, right? It's about the relationship with his father. It's about the relationship with his mother. Like the maturation that was already beginning to unfold and then ties to like. a pathway to a deeper understanding of his own history and an exploration of those bonds. And I think more broadly, Madeline really makes a great point because part of why I was so excited to just watch the show in general,

we talked about this in like our season one, you know, preview pods and the build-out of the show and trailer breakdowns and stuff like that. Like, I was really eager to spend time with Aceildore and like understand a character who does one of the most consequential things. Yes. In the world, like in the story, right? Yeah.

How do you become a person, who does that. Yeah. And I remember when like Jady and Patrick were talking about like pre-season one sort of like the stories they were excited to tell. Yeah. Isildor's arc was like really at the four for them. But I think there was just so much to do in season one, like so many characters that they felt

like they had to introduce that Asseldor in my memory. And I like Maxine Boldry a lot. We've talked about, you know, in years and years and other things that we've seen him in. But in my memory, he gets reduced a bit to like, again, just like staring out of the horizon, logging, all of that sort of stuff for the wider world out there. And as I mentioned on our previous pot, I am immediately so much more invested in him in season two. And sometimes it's like that idea of like the making of someone is thrusting them out into the world this way. You know, like we were used to seeing a Seildur in the shadow of his father, who was this like, you know, a strong stalwart leader of men figure that everyone like looks up to in Numenor.

and Aseildor is his like a kind of fail son, you know, sort of thing, right? And so what, who can you be when you, we talked about this a lot with like Loki and Thor, right? Like, who can you be when you are no longer attached to the person that, like, you're measured up to your whole life? And what can blossom within you? And I think that that is the opportunity that Elendiel ditching is still toward Middle Earth because he thought he was dead. And going back to Numerur with his. a hot queen girlfriend is, you know, that's the opportunity that they're affording a Seildor here as a character. They both potentially have hot girlfriends and so that's great for them. I like, I think where I am

with this right now is, I mean, I agree. I was like riveted by a Sildor in season two in a way that felt new. I don't mind where we found him and met him in season one because that makes that we love a character on an arc and that makes the maturation that we're watching more rewarding. And I think we have to actually understand the. root of that restlessness that drove him initially, like that searching for purpose and searching for belonging and also the guilt. Like we now understand thanks to what we've heard in season two, the way that the guilt over his mother's death and her sacrifice had been consuming him. So then that's something else we can bring an extra lens of understanding to the way he finds himself

at odds with his father, this like veil between them in addition to everything that you're citing. And like we think to something like, you know, he's hearing these like whispers on the water or thinking about his brother, like the conversation that Sildor and Alendale had in the third episode last season about Anarion and like that wedge between them. Like this family has a lot of stuff they need to work through together in therapy. And there's like this question of like the pull and the call, the guilt and the shame. So he's so unsure of like his footing and what his role in all of that is in season one that he like deliberately sabotages his Seagard training, thereby fucking up, potentially their futures

of his two best friends, Philandale and Antimo. Antimo, RIP, we miss you still. But like he's so desperate. You're poor in my mind all the time. You know, he had like at the pre-war happy hour, just like a beautiful fiancee and he had a whole life ahead of him and then they moved a log and found him dead beneath. It was tragic. But like, a Silder was just like basically so desperate.

for a sense of worth. Yeah. That he has to like, you know, beg and maneuver and work his way into the mission in the first place. But that's... And like, I love when Galadriel says to him on the ship,

this is, it's... I love that you mentioned Thor because this is like the same lesson Thor had to learn, right? Despise not the labor, which humbles the heart. Humility has saved entire kingdoms. The proud have all but led to ruin.

And so, like, that's one of the lessons Asiildor had to learn. He had to find his humility. And that's what we're watching. The humility, but also just like that, yeah, that like eager to please or eager to prove himself or all that sort of stuff. He doesn't have that energy around Theo or Estrid or Arandere. There's like, I got to get my horse is for in his mind. But like, I really love the conversation between Theo and Isildur when they're just like standing next to the aqueduct. You know what you mean? And it's just like, I don't know. There's something really compelling about that. that connection. So yeah. And he was speaking then of Numenor with a pride absent. Yeah, that need to like carve out his particular place in it. Yeah. Yeah. That was lovely. You'll love to see it. All right. A sill door. So like, again, one thing we know about a still door, yada, yada, yada, yada, everything else. One thing we know about a seal door is that he decided to

not throw a ring into Moutou. And we get to figure out life. It's Yildor. So we did have, I don't think it's in any of our questions today, I think. But like, we'd have one listener, like, say, like, imagine it's going to be exciting to see, like, to see our, this Elrond and this Sealedor do that iconic moment, you know? Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't wait. I mean, it will be fucking devastating. Okay. Okay. But I can't wait. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

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But Elizabeth says, when will the show explain more about the titular power of these rings? I first raised an eyebrow when cured on the shipwright claimed that Naria the red ring, claimed Naria the red ring. And I was like, wait, isn't that the ring associated with fire? And after some internet sleuthing, I understand the ability of it to help the bearer withstand the bullshit of time and inspire good to be fitting for one of the oldest and most respected elves in Middle Earth and for its eventual bearer gan. Gandalf got to be number one hype man for all those depressed hobbits and kings out there who need a pep talk. Same for Galadriel, especially.

And Nenia's properties of warding against evil, aka Hot Sauron, who fucks. Do you think this is the Middle Earth version of a chastity belt? She's definitely going to need its protection and steadfastness when she holds up in Laflorian to hide from her evil X. The question bothering me is, will the show ever elaborate on these themes concretely, meaning what the rings actually do for their bearers? or leave it up to the audience to research slash interpret for themselves as a hard magic nerd girlie. I understand Tolkien prefers soft magic in his world. But at least some basic parameters for the audience would be nice. Even a simple scene or two with the bearers talking about its effects would be nice.

And Galadryl and Gill chatting about visions was a step in the right direction. Yet with the show circling, ha, around the quests for rings and or power, I can't help but feel it's a massive plot hole to not explain how exactly these rings are supposed to help the very very. various problems they've there sought as solutions for. And with only five more episodes, will they make time to do so? I can't be the only one left wondering. All right. So thank you, Elizabeth. Ring stuff go.

Ring stuff go. So we got some Laura to talk about here. Again, this is like middle ground spoiler-ish stuff. So you can, you know, this is presumably what this television series will be covering. So you can skip ahead if you want to. So here's a question that I'm going to. start with in my response, which is, is Elrond right? Does Sauron control the rings? Again, this is something that the show is like, question mark. You can skip ahead if you don't want to know.

The three rings are unsullied, right? In that they were not made by Sauron, he didn't whisper his little chance over it, over the mithril as it went in to the alloy. But according to this letter from J.R. Tolkien, though unsullied, because they were were not made by Sauron nor touched by him. They were nonetheless partly products of his instruction and ultimately under the control of the one. So bottom line, Sauron's access is much less potent than the other ring. So like if when the dwarf lords put those seven rings on, Sauron has direct influence

over them. That is not necessarily the case yet with the three. But once he makes the one ring to rule them all, the three are. within that all. Right. That is zero by the one. There's that line from Gandalf in fellowship when he's running through all of the particulars with Frodo.

And he says the three are still hidden. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the one. For he made that ring himself. It is his and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the three.

So the three... It's a risk. So the fact that the elves are using the three right now is not great but not terrible. Right. And the fact that they use them later, and we'll talk about that in a second, is not terrible because the one ring was thought lost, you know, that out of Sauron's reach. Right. So then they felt safe to use the three again. So the main power of all the rings.

This is, again, according to a letter from J.R. Tolkien. Quote, the chief power of all the rings alike was the prevention or slowing of decay, i.e. changed views as a regrettable thing. The preservation of what is desired or loved or its semblance. This is more or less an elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor, thus approaching, quote, magic, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally, they had other powers more directly derived from Sauron, the necromancer. So he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of the Hobbit, such as rendering invisible the material body and making things of the invisible world visible. That's the scene versus unseen world stuff. So enhancing the natural powers of the bear preservation. This goes back to that question of longing. This goes back to like Tolkien's longing for pastoral England, like how much he hated

the industrialization of England and how much he longed for the verdant valleys and copses of trees of his youth and stuff like that and how there was something slightly ever so tinged with Maga Enis about that in Tolkien, where it was just sort of like his stubborn anti-all innovation, but like, but in terms of like the foul pollution of industrialization and stuff like that, and he's just like, let's preserve the beautiful trees. Well, no one think of the trees. You know, that is the power of these rings, allegedly, to preserve. and protect Revendal

to preserve and protect Laurian, etc. Anything you want to say about that before I get into the specific rings? Hit me, take me through them. Nenya, water ring. The elements don't, it's not like bending. The elements are not that closely tied to the rings.

They do have different elements associated with them. It's not that big of a deal. Galadul's ring preserves and protects in high stings, which she uses to protect level. and makes it stronger. Keep out those intrusive Sauron thoughts. This is the quote that our pal Brian Cogman identified as the sort of trigger for the entire rings of power show from the mirror of Galadriel chapter in Fellowship of the Ring.

She says of Sauron, he gropes ever to see me and my thoughts, but the door is still closed. And I think the ring helps her with that as long as he doesn't have his little matching ring. As long as they're not wedding rings, then it's fine. If she's just wearing the ring herself, Nenya helps her. Otherwise, it's just nonstop visions of them sitting on that branch. It's just like how brand? I mean, Sarah? Sorry.

So sorry. Sorry. In terms of water, if you want to find it there, the mirror of Galadriel and the file of Galadriel both use water from the same enchanted fountain. They're enchanted rivers on the borders of Lorain, protecting them from invasion. then again, a reggae and also has rivers protecting it. So, you know, what could possibly go wrong there? As Gil is happy to point out.

Yeah, it's like, two rivers. A thick wall. It's river walls. Don't worry about it. It'll be fine. We got a whole email about curtain walls. We're going to talk about that in episode four. Naria, the fire ring,

originally held by Akirden, but given to Gandalf, inspires others and gives resistance against the weariness of time. Perfect for Nestari, trying to rally free people against Sauron. There is some implication that Ganoff uses it to free Theodin from Wormtung's influence.

Definitely supercharging his own powers and his staff, et cetera, when he does that. This is what under the fire category, this is a quote from Kierden. Take this ring master, for your labors will be heavy, but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. This is the ring of fire. And with it, you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the sea. And I will dwell by the gray shores into the last ship sails.

I will await you. So that is- I can't love this guy. I know. This is Kierden's quote. It's a quote from dependencies, which is like some of the main text that the show is working off of. So I wouldn't be surprised if we hear, you know, if someone in the show is Gandalf and gets this ring at some point, I would not be surprised if. if we hear Kiernan say that. And then this is a quote from Return of the King

about this idea of like this ring perhaps helping with like uplifting and easing weariness. Quote, so it was that Gannulf took command of the last defense of the city of Gondor. Wherever he came, men's hearts would lift again and the winged shadows passed for memory. And yet when he had gone, the shadows closed on men again and their hearts went cold and the valor of Gondor withered into ash.

So, wear that ring. Inspire some people. Love to see it. Last, but not least. Villia, the air ring. This is one that Gilgallet is currently wearing, but Elrond will wear in the future. So eventually he will get over his anti-ring stance. Never had his power specified, but since Elron is a healer might be related to that.

It's probably in some way influenced Rivendell's existence, preserving or protecting or healing it. in some unspecified way. Does Elron use it to fuck up the Manazgul in the river in order to say Frodo? Because that is, that's a Glorffindal Elrond thing, not an Arwen thing. And then here's a quote about all three of the rings, but we get a mention of Elron's ring. Yet after the fall of Saran, their power was ever at work. And where they abode, their mirth also dwelt. and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

The ring of Sapphire was with Elran in the Farah Valley of Rivendale, upon whose house the stars of heaven most brightly shone. So that's ring stuff. Anything you want to say about this ring stuff? I think you covered all of the particulars. I think maybe just broadly, I will say like, when we think about, again, the nature of adaptation and what like making a television show,

allows you to do, this is the kind of thing you have more room for in a show than you would in a film and really should explore. It's my hope that we will see Galadriel, Gilgallin, and Kyridon discover more specifics of their rings. Like, show us don't tell us, right? You know, like, is what we want to see. And like, that actually feels, to be clear, I don't think either of us needs or crucially wants.

or hopes you see it all. Anything like, we're not asking for mid-chlorians. That's not what we want. We don't want anything like that. But an exploration and examination of the particulars of the magic, whether it comes to the nature of the forging

or then the powers at play, like for understanding the connection between wearer and ring, between all of the rings, the different character sets, a sara on the one ring, the ruling ring, and the other rings, etc.

Like, this is important. I think, like, where we are right now, the anxiety and the question about only five left, I get it, but also, like, that's just this season. I do think we need to, we'll see a little bit more of the season, but then we have more seasons to go. And, like, I think literally hearing Kierden say, we do not yet fully understand these rings

is, like, a hopeful kind of note because it shows us that the characters are and then, again, cited in the question, that conversation between Galadriel and Gil Gallet about the visions that they're having and the kind of thinning of the barrier between the worlds. Another thing we always love to talk about.

It's on their minds. And so it makes sense to me, actually, that we would be discovering these particulars more methodically as the characters are beginning to understand them too. And it feels like there's plenty of time for that yet. I don't think we need to necessarily fast forward to anticipating a moment

where we didn't explore that in full. I think if we don't, it will be a huge bummer and ultimately a mistake for the show. But I think there's, yeah, there's plenty of time. And I think more broadly

with the magic of the world, there's time to explore that. Like, what are we going to learn about the magic of the, the E-Star when we watch the stranger hopefully get his stuff under control? Yeah, his powers and his ability to control them.

Like, it feels like there's a lot of actually, like, ripe, a storytelling opportunity there with the rings, but more broadly, with the magic in this fantasy, world. So I'm excited for that. Love it. Okay. Brian writes in to say, throwing back to season one as far as Galadriel and Hot Saron,

a halberand, aka Anatar, aka Symbiotr, our concern. Would we define their meeting as a meat cute? Would we define Prince Dern and Elron because two guys swinging hammers feels out right home or erotic? Was there a meat cute in season two you liked or are looking forward to? You go first Take me through your meat cute thoughts I mean Yes I mean I think the raft is the classic Meat Cute scenario

I mean it's not it's a little it's a little more C beasty than cute but it's still Nothing says romance and cute romance Like imminent peril from a creature in the sundering sea Yeah we felt it right away Doren and Elron less so just because they had already met That's a what To put it in

the rom-com terms, because that's what Meet Cute comes from. This would be a classic screwball comedy plot of remarriage, which is, like you see in the Philadelphia story, or you see, like, to go back to, you know, Argy Shakespeare, much ado about nothing, people who were previously associated, not some time has passed, there are resentments, but then they find their way back to each other, the comedy plot of remarriage. So, like, that's sort of where I would put Elron and Doran in season one. In terms of season two, I don't know if we're going to get it this season. I mean, I'm just really excited for Elron to meet more people because he was like,

leaned in and then down in the minds for the rest of season one. And, you know, he's over in a Regian. So is Calibran briefly Halberon. I don't, they didn't interact very much. You know, Galadriel, Gilgallet, but like, you know, a Sildor and Elrond, I want to see it. Or, like, you know, I just, you identified El Rund as your favorite character. I might agree with you.

And, like, I just, I want to see him in all corners of the world. So that's sort of- Especially when those locks are flowing. And like, we've got somebody flowing locks on the trailer. She found my, there's something going on with the elf weeks this season, which we will continue to explore. Also, we got actually several emails about elf ears. And I promise you will be talking about. With some remarkable hashtags.

We were talking about the, yeah, what is it, meaty, thick boys, I think. We will be talking about the Elf Years in episode four for sure. Oh, man. Yeah, Elron, get him out there in the world. Or as you said, any scene is better with Dorn and Disa in it. So take Dorn and Disa anywhere and we're going to have a great time. I don't think there isn't like meet Q's with a Sealedor, but it, well, Estrid, obviously. Estrid, yes, of course.

I think we can count as Seildor and Estrid as a meet cute. I mean, she's got her hands on its inner thigh in mere moments. High, high up the thigh. It's interesting now because, like, to think back, you know, so much of the, obviously, Galadryl and Hal Brand is Galadryl here top of the list. But so much of the like romance-centric focus of season one was Arrondere and Bronwyn. So like we have some space to fill now. You know, we do.

Here's my question for you. Would you count Merdinia and Al-Brand? She's like, can we just bring them a shirt? y'all. Yes. My girl is cold. It's raining. Got it bad.

I'm worried. Got it bad. And if you can blame her, not us. Not us. This is not a spoiler warning because I have genuinely no idea what's actually going to happen when this in the story. But it's a trailer warning because sometimes people don't like to talk here about. So I'm going to mention something not actually. I don't, I can't remember.

I don't think this was in the season pre, like the three trailers before the season. But it was in the at the end of episode one, the like this season on. So if you don't want, if you didn't watch that, you skip that. You don't like to see that stuff. Hit like the fast forward button twice. Poppy? Gonna meet someone? Yeah.

Oh, that's a kiss shot. 100%. Oh yeah. Oh, yes. So that's exciting. Yes. We've got a meet cute pending. And I'm excited to see what that is for.

Yeah. For Poppy, that's very exciting. And then just, you know, on the romance front, as stated on many prior pods. And as I will continue to. state until they consummate their love at last. I need a Lendale and Miriel to fuck. I need it, Joe. Do you need it on the screen?

Because this is the question of like, I would like a little, I'm sorry to be so painfully on brand. I'm like fine with a chaster rings experience. But I would like just like a touch more sex in rings of power. I think we've like ratcheted up the violence. Why not ratchet up the sex? A heavy snog? Something like that, at least.

Yeah. Not just like fingertips grazing and yearning. Okay, got it, got it. I mean, I would take some grazing yearning fingertips, certainly. Here's my most pressing meat cute. I need Kemen's face and like a fist, an axe, a sword, something. Just an axe splitting his face open. Duran's axe and Kemen's face.

That's a... Friend, I need your ass. That's really high on my list. Oh, man. Great stuff. I love it. This question comes from Andy, who says, did you see when the stranger reached out for the staff mirage that it turned into a different staff that looked like getting off the grays? It actually looks a little bit more like Radigas, but has that woods vibe. Definitely didn't get that from the one evil wizard leading me to think they're not both blue.

So staff questions, Mallory. We already know how you feel about like whether or not this. can and should be Gandalf. It has to be. It has to be. Actually, it's sort of, like, fascinating just in the wild conversations with some, some pals of people this weekend. And I, I, um, this perhaps is like confirmation bias where I'm looking for people

to agree with the thing I already think entirely possible. Like, it's never happened to be before. But I, like, this was coming up. Like, if it's not And off, why are they fucking with us basically? So I'll be, I'd be curious to see. On the Radigas front, um, You know, we talked about this in the deep dive. Like, the Stranger's cloak is certainly looking browner this season.

I assume that's just, like, desert dust and dirt on the road to ruin, but maybe it is deliberately there to, like, fuel our speculation. I would say, like, I'm not getting Radigast vibes from the stranger. Is it the lack of bird shit on his head? Lack of bird shit streaming down his face and coating his cheekbones. Yeah. Limited commuting with animals so far when he has. it's gone quite poorly, you know, some injured wolves and some, you know, some firefly genocide,

basically. And there's also, there's that line from Gandalf in fellowship. You are near the borders of the shire now. And what do you want with me? It must be pressing. You were never a traveler unless driven by great need. Now, I guess you could say certainly this is great need. But like, I think if you said, like, what do we associate the stranger with? We'd say, like, traveling and the quest. This is just like, I'm not, it's not pink. Rattigast to me, but on the staff vision front, I'll say, like, we should just keep in mind because I do think there's, yes, there's definitely some visual similarities to Rattagast, but like more so, I think, to Gandalf's staff in the Moria area of fellowship.

And Gandalf's staff change over the course of the films. Like, it's much more of a... It's white stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But even before that, like in The Hobbit, his staff has like a closed kind of like, tightly knit, more closed, like upper netting and webbing. And like in fellowship, it's, it's more of like an open kind of nestling, like, nest and cocoon. So remembering that the game that

they're constantly playing legally is that they want to like invoke the Peter Jackson films, but can't like copy, legally copy the Peter Jackson films, right? I actually think the thing, you know, you and I were going back and forth of like, is this get off? And that is definitely the question that, you know, like, we're not. done with mystery boxes. They're definitely like, who's Sauron? We solved for X.

We know who Sauron is. It's Halber and who's now Anatar, right? Like, we get that. Is this guy Gandalf is going to be, maybe a question they're going to make us ask for two more seasons. Who knows? Oh, man. Nothing has convinced me more that this is Gandalf since we spoke last week.

Then that quote I read about Kyrton handing the ring off to Gandalf. And this, like sort of enraptured this idea. We will see all of the people who wear the three rings of power in Lord of the Rings get their rings before this show is over. Do you know? Yeah. We'll see the rings on the, on the, on their final hands, uh, before this is all over.

And in that case, we need a Gandalf. So need them. Need them. All right. Um, follow our nose to that outcome. Yeah, because someone wrote it, someone wrote a Zemel being like, of course it's Gandalf. They use this quote. I'm like, yes, we know, we know that they are like heavily implying that it's

Gandalf. We are picking up all the clues. I just don't know if it's like a red herring or not, you know. So if a bird takes a shit on the stranger's head, are you going to, are you going to switch your stance? I was told there was being no math on this podcast. Okay. So Jen Ronin asked.

She says, in the deep dive of the first three episodes, you talked about evil being cold, freezing the land as Sauron, quote, unquote, dies. I wonder if Tolkien was influenced by Dante in this instance, or the showrunners writers, if the coldness isn't specified in the books. It is Comedia. Dante crafts the ninth circle of the Inverno as cold, not hot. Comedia is how you pronounce it. I'm so sorry. Satan is frozen in a lake of ice at the center of the earth.

Just wondering, if you two knew anything as to if or how much exposure Tolkien had to Dante. And boy, Jen, do I have a fun answer for you? This is incredible. We read some, like, fun, salty quotes from Tolkien in season one of Rings of Power. There are many that exist. This man was a frequent correspondent. He had a lot of opinions. He was not afraid to use them.

You know who would have been a great podcaster? Oh, Tolkien. Oh, my God. Lewis and Tolkien on the mic, the Inklings podcast. Lewis is. Tolkien's BFF, C.S. Lewis is about to come up. Okay. So via some, like,

Dante site that I found. Live show at the Eagle and Child. Tolkien's ambivalence towards Dante would be best presented in his own words. In 1967, Tolkien gave an interview to the Daily Telegraph. Having received the draft of the pre-published interview, he sent back his corrections. And so we have both his original words and his retraction of them in print, which are worth quoting in full. So originally when asked about Dante, Tolkien said, quote, doesn't attract me. He is full of spite and malice.

I don't care for his petty relations with petty people in petty cities. That's what Tolkien said about Dante. Once he saw those words in front of his face, this is the retraction that he sent. Quote, my reference to Dante was outrageous. I do not seriously dream of being measured against Dante, a supreme poet. At one time, C.S. Lewis and I used to read him to one of one. another. I was for a while a member of the Oxford Dante Society. I think at the proposal of Lewis, who overestimated greatly my scholarship in Dante or Italian generally. It remains true that I found

the pettiness that I spoke of, a sad blemish in places. So, Mallory, how do you feel about the Tolkien Byrne and then the hasty retraction from, you know. We know now that he would not only be a great podcaster, but great at Twitter. Twitter apology. Yes. Notes app. In the notes app. Tolkien broke out the notes app.

But I also just love the added info. We get that like C.S. Lewis like press ganged him into the Dante Society. He's like, uh, I don't really care about Dante. I really really like to us. One of my best friends to this day. Like one of the bridesmaids at my wedding was somebody who I happened to be placed with in like an orientation group, first day of college, four people, uh, journals. some students, okay, you guys need. And then like we had a thing. It was another orientation event after.

And this dear friend, 20 years later, she was like, I have to go to a placement exam for my French class. And I didn't want to sit alone with this next thing. And so I was like, you strike me as someone who, you know, would be great at foreign languages. I think, because she wanted to actually place down. She had placed into a higher French class than she wanted to take. And I basically was like, come sit with me at this other orientation thing. Don't go to your French placement test. And I think she does have some regrets about listening to me in that moment. But I don't think she has regrets about our two decades long, beautiful bond. When you started this story, I was like, no way did someone make Mallory do something she didn't want to do.

And then when I realized you were the influencer, I was like, yes, that sounds right. Okay. Oh boy. Speaking of people susceptible to influence. Last but certainly at least. We didn't cover this a bit in our answering the sort of like longing question, but this is where we're going to get, I guess, as much as we did with the Rings answer into some spoilerish territory. This is a, this is a speculation question that we asked a lot in our coverage of season one and we kept it out of like sort of the main like non-spoiler section. So I'm just going to give that warning here.

This is, we got an email from Jason that I'm going to say TLDR ring wraith watch go. There will be nine ring wraiths, nine Nazgul, nine men who are turned into foul beasties. Whomst among the cast that we have already met could be one of those nine. So that's the question that we're going to consider right now. Shout out, John Richter, who is out this week, but does our video production usually. sent us an email this morning. So it's too late for me to, like, put in the notes here. But he is also very much like Ring, Wraith, watch go.

He has some pharazons intel that I am not privy to. So we will get more info from John on that before I go into that. I'm not going into that thing. I just sending a proper email instead of just texting or his lacking is so incredible to me. He promised he was going to do that. And then he did it. He sent a bullet-pointed email full of theories. So John Richter.

Okay. All right. So let's begin of kings. Oh, man. Here we go. Ring, wraith, watch, go. Nine rings for men doomed to die is how the ring verse goes. And here's a quote from the Silmarillion ever heard of it. Quote, those who used the nine rings became mighty in their day. Kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old, they obtained glory and great wealth.

Yet it turned to their downfall. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men, but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, They fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the one which was Sauron's and they became forever invisible

save to him that wore the ruling ring and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they. The ring rites. The, um, the Ula, no I'm not going to pronounce it. The enemy's most terrible servants. Darkness went with them and they cried with the voices of death. Um, okay.

Dude, should we have to be? Is it too late? We're a few years in, but should we change the name of the pod to under the thrall dome? I mean, how did we, how did that escape us

when we were first considering what to, what to call? You know how in the index, any index, but including the rings, indices, so you go to a term

and then it's like in parentheses all the other terms that you might, you might reference. Nasgul, parentheses, ring rates, black riders,

fell riders, black men, the nine, nine riders, nine lords, messengers of Mordor, winged messengers, shriekers, etc. They had to end that with a fucking et cetera. But they didn't put that incredible word that I dare not pronounce. And that's why you're off the hook. Thank you. Okay.

Yeah. So I think the key takeaway from that, as we sort of ponder who in the cast might be a candidate for the nine. is this one by one sooner or later, according to their native strength, into the good or evil of their wills in the beginning. So not all of these men are going to be Kemen's craven evil, shitty people. You know what I mean? Like, I think we should be on the lookout for some people who feel a bit more noble,

but could go anyway. Here's what we know. We know so little about the nine. This is like a piece of lore that Tolkien really has not fleshed out or filled in, which again gives the show opportunity to play. Too busy talking shit to Dante. Their leader known as the Witch King of Angmar, the Lord of the Nasgul or the Black Captain, had once been the King of Angmar in the north of Ariadore.

So, and then, okay, here's the thing about Tolkien. He's forever writing letters and unfinished tales and all this sort of stuff like that. And he just like said, I don't know, five different things about the Witch King of Angmar. So there's like a lot, a lot going on. So we definitely have not met someone who was the king of Angmar in the North of Arirador. That has not happened to us. Okay. Right. But also elsewhere. Yeah. There are three lords of the once powerful island realm of Numenor. In his notes for translators, Tolkien speculated that the witch king of Angmar, ruler of the Northern Kingdom with his capital of Karno was of Numenorian origin. Right. So a thing to remember, about the rings of power. Something that Jady and Patrick have been very, very open about and is already evident, they are massively condensing the timeline, right? So, like, if Tolkien has in his mind someone from Numeruor who gets a ring and in doing so

becomes, you know, they become kings, they become sorcerers, they become all these things. They live for years and years and years and years before they become the ring wraiths. We're not going to have time for that in the timeline of what we're seeing because the Issyldor is already like a man grown, right? So the Numenorian question mark who becomes the King of Angmar. I don't know that that is going to happen. But could it be that the Witch King Mangmar is just a Numenorian in the show? So here are our candidates then.

I believe Faris on Miriel, Elendil, and Issyldor are out. Certainly Alendale and Issyldor are out. For sure. John has some questions about Farazan. I thought it was very important that Farazan shuffle off this mortal coil the way he does in the books, but sure. Then we've got that piece of shit, Kevin. The heroic Valan deal.

No. My new fave, Belzegar. And Aarian, who's to say? Yeah. One of the ringwraiths isn't a lady. We don't know that. Could be. It says three rings for Elvin Kings, but one of those Elvin Kings is Galadriel.

So just something to keep in mind, gender-wise. Okay? Okay. If I'm Rishi from Pierpoint, I have already put my entire life savings down on Kemen. Yes. Correct. Right. Correct.

It feels like it's why he's there. I mean, Belzegar and Kemen and A.R.A.N. are there to give Fares on someone to talk and scheme with. Like, that's sort of part of their purpose there. And A.A.R.N. to make life more complicated for Elendale because someone in his own family is like on the other side. So like make it more poignant. But yeah, Kemen of all the Numeron, Kevin, number one. Number one. Yeah. I do like a A. R. Ann, as a candidate as well. Like aligning with the power grabers. The exposure to the Palantir also like makes her a very intriguing candidate for whatever. Like the path awaits.

Even just the way she was like, even though it ends up being like, you know, leverage to take Murieled down. I found something, something secret, something dangerous, something forbidden, like what we've glimpsed of how she relates to anything that's like to be coveted or feared by some party. Fascinating to me. She also loves jewelry. She's rocking a lot of dramatic earrings this season. So, you know. Loves. Loves. Loves a notable neckline and an earring. Bellsigar strikes me as just like a bit player sycophant, but you know, you never know. We're never know. We're going to need nine. So he could be like one of the nine, but like really ninth on the roster.

Do you know what I mean? Do you like the idea of Kemen and N ARIN? You know, they're like, they're a couple. They're like a shitty power couple, yes. Yeah. And you said absolutely not about Volondial. You're like absolutely not. My guy would never.

I will be, I think, just crestfallen. I can't see it. I can't see it. But I am compelled by your note to keep in mind that we shouldn't only be considering candidates who have already shown us some shittiness. Breedy evil pendency. So for right now, if I had to bet, I would pick Kevin Belzegar and Ariane as like our three. Because I really do think that Farisand needs a different ending than becoming a ring wraith.

But, okay. Quote, so three Lords are the Once Powerful Island Realm of Numeron. Next category, quote, according to the lore, kings of countries in Middle Earth. Again, Seildor is out. Right. Tall Moody Theo. Still a leading candidate, I think. Estrid.

Her betrothed. I'm just, we're just banging around Polargear right now. This is like all we, we don't have a lot of locations for men, so we're doing our best. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to, again, we said more broadly for this question, like, talking and looking ahead, so you had your spoiler warning. I'm going to put Estrid in like a seal door's unnamed wife. I like it.

The territory. I... Because as we've mentioned many times, Tolkien does not prefer to name a woman. The wife's others. And there was a woman. Yes.

I'm with you. I agree. I agree. But maybe her but Troathed, who surely we will meet at some point this season. Could be? And he's like, wow.

Yeah. You dished me for a still door. Yeah. That guy. But now I need to go do something drastic. Yeah. How are you coping with the fact

that it's not going to be Waldrick. What a devastating blow for all of us here at House of Our. I just, why how? I know. We were rooting for you, my guy, to live in, in, in, uh, long in the legacy. Tall, tall moody Theo. Yeah.

Again, to go back to that, like, maybe not as heroic as Volondial, but like, not someone that I think of as, like, evil, but someone who is vulnerable. Yes. And so when we have already seen, like, fall under the sway of something. Like, you know, he did, he uses it as kind of like a part of the ploy at the, at the, the fireside here to kind of help the Seildor. But when he shows the arm wound and he's like reminding us, right? I did more for Adler. Yeah, it's proof I've done more for him than any of you can claim.

And again, that conversation between Theo and Galadriel and the penultimate episode last season, the guilt that he's carrying. And even then the way that built toward She's encouraging him to like trust in the design, right? And surrender. And he says, my home has gone, where's the design in that? And now in addition, he's like resenting the death of his mother.

He is very, very, very vulnerable. Speaking of, is he, I think where we've both kind of moved into like, maybe we won't find out who Chekhov's Fio's missing dad is. But like, also his missing dad could still be a candidate too. Yeah, you got to mention. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

In unfinished tales, the Witch King's second in command is named Kamul, the Black Easterling, or the Shadow of the East. Guess what? We've gone east with the stranger and Nori and Poppy, and we've met the Goudrim, which are just basically dusty Nazgoul. So we've got two named character in the Goudrim. They have the copper masks. We've got Kilda, who's got sort of like the long mask, and Brank, who's got the skull. mask are these proto not a school what do you think i think somebody from the ruin plotline has to end up being one of the nine the easterlings are of ruin this feels inevitable but we got to say okay so we

have we picked three numinorians that we feel moderately comfortable with we've got theo feels pretty good uh you know in in the southland sort of area and then let's say we we take both the named Goudrim. That is still only six. Did I do my math correctly? Yes. So we're three short. So listen, we're only in season two.

We, you know, Saran has already said, I need rings for men. Can you make me rings for men? So that's already on his mind, but who knows how long it's going to take. And then there's like a very intense trailer line where he's like,

you will give me the nine. It feels like it's going to be a focus. Yeah. The, the, yeah, these masked trackers. We also know already about them that they have made a pact, right?

They've like made a pact with our mysterious Kieran Heinz and they've got a funky skin condition. Yeah, like clearing up their eczema.

Yeah. So they seem again I can fix your eczema put this ring on and you won't need the creams anymore. Let me tell you what it did for this leaf.

All right. So that's a, that's ring wraith watch go. Great stuff. We will be doing this. rest of short every week. This is a fun game to play.

As we plan ahead, how many minutes do you want to carve out for wig watch and earwatch at the end of the week? Great question. The ears stuff is sort of astonishing. And also, yeah, the elf sideburn watch.

I think the elf hair watch is actually related to earwatch. I have some questions about what's happening with the prosthetics series of season. We'll talk about it. 10 minutes. it's max. But that's a chunky little wigwatch session. So we'll see. Meaty thick boy. Meaty thick boy. All right. Anything else want to say?

We did it. We did it. I can't wait to be back with you in mere days to discuss the next episode of Rings of Power season two. All right. Thank you to Mallory Rubin. Thank you to all of the bad babies for your emails. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Thanks to Steve Olman in Chicago and nonetheless, manning the soundboard for us today. Thank you so much. Steve, thanks to your Jenner Ringgo Powell for his production work on this and every episode. Thanks to Joe Me at dinner on the social and filling in from John Richter this week. We have Stefano Sanchez. Thank you so much. We will see you at the end of the week for episode four rings of power. Bye.