House of R - ‘VisionQuest’ Episodes 1-2 Deep Dive

Episode Date: October 16, 2026

Mal and Jo are back to dive deep into the premiere episodes of ‘VisionQuest.’ They break down the show’s attempts to remind everyone of Vision’s story, the introduction of a new version of Tommy, Ultron’s role in the story, and more! Plus, they discuss their theories about what’s to come this season. (00:00) Intro(04:59) Opening Snapshot(23:39) Deep Dive(02:04:03) Theory Corner(02:15:44) Easter Eggs(02:28:38) Wig Watch Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory RubinProducer: Carlos ChiribogaProduction Assistant: Scott LeeStudio Production: Jacob CornettSocial: Jomi AdeniranAdditional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome back to House of Our, I'm Joanna Robinson. And joining me today, there are no strings on her. It's Mallory Rubin. Oh, my odd weed duck, Joanna Robinson. What a pleasure to be back with you. Can I just, I mean, like, I know you know me so well, but can I just say that, like, when that happened in the show, I was like, I hope someday someone calls me that. And there you did. You already did it. Done, but I'm going to continue calling you that. Tick it off the bucket list. Appreciate you. Buttercup. Oh. Part of the House of Arcana. Yeah, texts. Odd we don't. Yeah. Part of the House of our canon. Wonderful. We're here to talk about Vision Quest. That's right. Episode one and two right after this.

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Yeah. So we are covering Vision Quest week to week. And whatever permutation, Disney decides to drop it on a Tuesday, two at a time. Whatever they're going to do, we're going to cover it. Some twists and turns. Yeah. Really excited to cover it with you. It's been a minute since we've done a Marvel show. It's fun to be back in the mix with that. We also, as we mentioned before, we have our eyes on some late October movie releases. That's right. Fully cemented our plans. But you have seen Wicker. I have seen Wicker. We're thinking about some Clayface stuff. We're thinking about some Wildwood stuff. It's all just sort of in the mix. Still have to see both of those. There's a lot of delights.

in store for us later this month, as well as a big project that we're going to let you know about later. Stay tuned. Just something we're really, watch the space. We're really, really excited about. So how can folks keep track of that? How can make sure they don't miss whatever ambiguous thing it is I just teased? Thanks for asking, dad, papa. Peepaw?

Okay. Audwee Duck, yes. Pea pot out. It's a no. I'm just, you know, I got to test a few things. Yeah, I understand. I understand. Here's what I'd recommend follow the pod.

Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify, Incredible Stuff. You can also, of course, watch full video episodes of HouseFar and the Midnight Boys. Boop, boo, boo! On the Ringervverse YouTube channel, we'd also love it if you followed at House of Our pod. Crisp. Nailed it. Crisp.

Nailed it. Crisp, cool, delicious, like a Grady Smith apple. on Instagram. Yeah. TikTok. We have fun stuff cooking there all the time, including some pending announcements,

as Joanna indicated. And of course, the inbox is open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Send us your vision quest thoughts. Send us your wicker thoughts. Clayface. Wildwood.

What else? What else is happening? Survivor. Survivor. I haven't seen last nights yet, so no spoilers. Baseball. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, baseball playoffs. Football. How's your, Fantasy League? Pretty close to calamitous. Okay. I was in last place for one week, which was really dark. My entire team has hurt.

It's been an injury calamity, but also my quarterbacks are a shit show. I wish that no one in the world knows what it feels like to have Justin Herbert and Bonnix as their quarterbacks in fantasy this year. It's just a very bleak experience. I just really agree. It's so grim. Yeah. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

But my points. total, despite the record. Okay, so I won last week. I beat Danny Kelly's second best team in the league. Granted, everybody on his team was on a buy, but it doesn't matter. A win to win. Moved from 12th to eighth, working my way back up the standings. Single didge, that's a good place to be. Seven teams in the league are two and three. So there's a lot of parity. Guess what? The three guys who professionally cover fantasy football are in the top three spots in the league and everyone else is just trying to hang on. That's less embarrassing for them than last year. Much. Okay. Well, we'll see how it goes in the playoffs. Great. Long season. Spoiler wording. Not for football, but. but for Marvel.

Anything that's ever happened in the MCU is on the table. That's right. Anything that's happened in Marvel Comics is on the table. We will have a theory corner for this show. This is a very like theory-friendly show.

So we'll have a theory corner. You know, and we might use some comics knowledge or whatever to inform that. That will be its own separate event towards the end of the podcast. But, you know, comic lore is in the mix

as we discuss this show. Anything has happened on MCU television. Yeah. Other stories about robots? You know, who knows? Sure. Sure, which one? I robot. Possibly. Okay. You know, might bring up Battlestar at some point. Oh, we love a toaster. I mean, there's a short circuit reference in this two-part premiere.

Johnny Five, still alive. Wonderful stuff. That made me happy. I love short-circuven. Of course he did. Oh, I mean, yeah. The least surprising thing ever, of course. Yeah. Great stuff. Should we go to our opening snapshot? Let's do it. Quick facts.

Yeah. These two episodes are called No Strings and Thesius. To vision references were already quite familiar with, an Ultron reference, a vision reference, we're already quite familiar with. I also think of them as like identifiers, right? Like there's no string, like who has no strings, Ultron? Who is Theseus in the revised conversation about the ship of Theseus vision? So these are sort of like I Am kind of titles.

Both written by Terry Metallis, who is the showrunner of this show, both directed by Christopher Byrne. Terry Matalas, and I said this a million years ago, sort of when he was announced for this show, was a show where I was quite excited about because his, when he took over the third season of Star Trek Picard, it just really bumped up the quality of that series, which had sort of struggled a bit

in its first two seasons and then like really, ended really on a high note. And all reports are that Faggy, Kevin Fagy, who's a Star Trek fan, saw that season and was like, get me, Terry Matalas. And they like, he like came into the office. Terry tells the story about how he came into the office and they just like talk Star Trek. But also he was like, but also I love Marvel, sir.

Like if you could use me and, uh, and drove off the lot and then like, Vigy called him and they just kept talking and then he got this show. Terry Mantell is also, uh, was a showrunner on 12 Monkeys, a show that I never watched, but a lot of people speak very highly of. Yeah. And he's used, uh, Chris Byrne was also a director on 12 Monkeys. and then like Emily Hampshire. There's a number of 12 monkeys cast members in this show. So there's a lot of like, the 12 monkeys fans are living. And Terry Metallis has also said that there are some like 12 monkeys' Easter eggs.

If they are, I missed them because I wouldn't know. I watched some of that show, but I can't say I feel I've retained much from it. I mean, I love the movie. Never watched the show. So, yeah. So that is sort of what we're here to talk about today. I have sort of like a big picture sort of thematic table. setter question for you, but I guess I should just ask, Mallory Rubin, did you enjoy these episodes

of television? I did, yeah. I definitely am in the like, not love spot through two. I think that it's been enjoyable and fun. I think Bettney's amazing. Spader is just God tier. Like watching the two of them trade lines in a scene is wonderful. I think that Rory. Rurie, Rurie, who plays Tommy is a delight. Yeah. Through two episodes, absolutely loving our time with Tommy and I think the performance is really good. So the cast is really fun.

You know, the overall, it's interesting, like on the end, the episode title front, no strings, Theseus, something I will be kind of monitoring across the season is how the, at least initially, very prevalent and heavy, return to. very specific iconic lines of dialogue and moments from the prior series feels, because I think there is a logic to it in the show where we have AIs, we have artificial beings, and our vision, our central figure in particular, is in this position of asking who am I and has had these memories and this data set activated. So it makes complete sense.

They're very lucky to have an infrastructure where, It allows them to have some cover to do this. It's like a totally logical decision. I don't know if it will feel at a certain point, like it tips into just like... It depends how often they do it. Yeah. Whether it is going to start to feel a little bit stale instead of innovative, or whether it unlocks a lot of thematic richness in returning to those moments and exploring that

parallel, I'm like undecided on that, I think, through two episodes. Obviously, when we go through the breakdown, we'll talk about some of the particular, like, lines and moments that manifested. I think the two, you know, these were the two vision scenes that we identified as most important in our Wanda Vision sort of revisited podcast, which was, what is grief but love persevering? And the ship of these, both of which get a significant hit in these two episodes. And so I think one worked better for me than the other, but I was skeptical of both of them. Yeah. I agree.

But I have to hope that that's just like an early days thing and not an ongoing thing. Along with, I mean, these episodes had so much to do in terms of like, we'll talk about this a little bit more, but like in terms of like making sure everyone's caught up. It's been so long since Wanda Vision, not to mention, you know, not everyone in the world watched Agatha. So like there was just a lot to catch up on. So it had a lot to do. And for me, I would also put my feelings about one and two as like very much but not love. But with excitement for the possibility of, you know, I think the dynamic of. all the AIs in the vision mind space is really, really fun and has a lot of possibility.

I am in love with Edith. Let me throw out there now. I'm a hamster, like, rock star of this show. Incredible. So, so all of that, like the potentiality for a lot of fun stuff there, a lot of complicated stuff there. And then the fact that, like, we don't have to wait for Vision and Tommy to find each other. They're already together. Delightful.

Delightful turn of events. With, like, a ghostly Ultron by the end of episode, too. So it feels like all the pieces are in place and there was just like a lot of other stuff that they had to do in these first two episodes. And I think that what my hope is and what, you know, to your point, maybe even feels likely, is that this is a little bit of an inversion of our experience with Wanda Vision and Agatha where I think, you know, many people, but certainly the two of us, were astonished and bold over by receiving something that we had no idea would be like that. Yeah. Right? And that's just one of the great delights as a TV fan. This is born out of its connective tissue to prior experiences that we and the characters have. And so the surprises may be a wait in the future. I think that's possible. Again, we'll talk about this as we go, but like,

you know, you noted the no strings. The Ultron, we agree the speeder performances. You know, no surprise, really fun. And like, even though Age of Ultron is not my favorite movie, I've always really liked Ultron as a villain and always really loved that voice performance in that movie. I think that the idea of, you know, we get a lot of like Jarvis Vision, older brother stuff,

and of course Ultron, Dad, Papa, Pee-Paw, being presented here, presenting himself as the father figure, kind of grandpa in the backseat of the car at the end when Tommy and Vision are together. Given how Agatha, with both Billy thinking about Wanda,

Agatha, thinking about Nikki, and then, of course, Wanda Vision with Billy and Tommy. All of these stories have been about, and with Vision himself born out of, as we are reminded in these episodes, not only Jarvis and Ultron, but Bruce and Tony. All of these stories are about, like, parents and kids, family. The family line was another, like, here's a repeated line that I was like, oh, no, I'm getting a little nervous about this, actually. It's that later late season Thrones thing. Yeah, and again, I think the cover here of.

like these are robots who would be recalling this information makes sense, but it doesn't take away, it doesn't like necessarily always, always just land with the viewer. I like when we're able to think of those lines and make those connections rather than the show always doing it. The generational stuff though, right, having vision not only working through and assessing what it means to be resented with this question of, is this my son, right? Am I other vision? No, but what will the journey of working toward a different place be? But then to also have this question of like, where did I come from? That's really fun.

I think that, and this kind of gets into what I know you want to hit next, while obviously like Tommy, you know, the second episode is basically a Tommy episode. We get a lot of Tommy even just at the end of the first episodes. There was a lot of Tommy in the double premiere, which I quite enjoyed. And so that makes obviously Agatha undeniable connected text because of our journey with Billy there. However, I think it's reasonable. two episodes in to say is the real trilogy, which we've been talking about, age of Ultron, Wanda Vision and Vision Quest, more so than Wanda Vision Agatha and Vision Quest.

I think it'll depend entirely how much Billy is or is not involved in this. And I think also I hear you on that. And yeah, we'll talk about Ultron in a second. I could possibly see that. But I think that just depends how you orient whose story. If it's like Vision's trilogy, it's that. Right. But what I love about both Agatha and this show,

is how defined they are by Wanda's absence. Like how it's just coalescing around this sort of like great wound of an absence of a character that we really admire. Yeah. Or I really admire anyway. And like a character who I, whose absence I feel from the MCU. So I just, if I think of it as a Wanda trilogy, that's what that is. But if you think of it as a vision trilogy, I think you could orient it differently. That exchange, like haunting her footsteps, not hers, his.

Yeah. And that acknowledgement, and obviously we get the literal return to the footage, the reels of shared experiences. We have the flashes in Tommy's mind. So Wanda was, of course, intentionally and reasonably inescapable in a great way. The vision and the Wanda and the Tommy and the Billy of it all feels very much connected in the television MCU experience. Ultron was a really big part of the double premiere. I loved that. So I'm curious to see how central the Ultron journey is, too.

obviously we'll hit a lot of that in theory corner, I think. But that was like a pleasant surprise to me, ultimately, at the beginning of the season here is just that like... Because I definitely thought the show was going to be the search for Tommy, and it's like, oh, Tom's here. So what is this show? Yeah, that's a great point. Okay. So here's what Terry Metallis has said about his sort of, you know, he was given Vision quest, knowing that Wanda Vision already existed. Agatha had not sort of premiered when he was cooking up this project. So trying to think of how he could put. together. What would be interesting to do with White Vision after he flies out of Westview at the end of Wanda Vision? So Mattela said, I believe this was just Green Rant. He said, this is a story of a guy going through an identity crisis. And when you go through that, you spend a lot of time in your own head. I've certainly been there. Mata said, I've asked myself, who do I really want to see him with? Wanda's not there. So immediately I went to Ultron. I wanted that last scene in Avengers Age of Ultron between the two of them to go on for another 127 minutes. Then it dawned on me. what if that was the series, right? So that this is, and like, on the one hand, it's a little surprising on the other hand. It shouldn't be because, like, the poster is James Spader and Paul Bettney. Like, you know, they've been sort of like couching it that way.

I think I was just sort of like, this is a Vision and Tommy show, and it still is. But it's very much an Ultron show. So here's the exchange from the end of Avengers Age of Ultron, right? Vision says you're afraid. Ultron says, of you? Of death. You were the last one. You were supposed to be the last. Stark asked for a savior and settled for a slave. Vision says, I suppose we are both disappointments. Alton says, I suppose we are. Vision says, humans are odd. They think order and chaos are somehow opposites and try to control what won't be, but there is grace in their failings. I think you missed that. Ultron says they're doomed. Vision says yes. But a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts. It's a privilege.

to be among them. Ultron says, you're unbearably naive. In a very Joss Whedon, a fashion says, well, I was born yesterday. Yeah. So vision finding the beauty in humanity and Ultron, you know, in his quest to destroy them, finding nothing but, you know,

something too deride to mock, to pity to look down upon. That dynamic to be flipped here at the beginning of this show where it's, uh, Ultron holding up humanity as something to study and admire. Whether or not he means it, we don't know how much of anything he says in these first two episodes is just agendized to get to where he gets by the end of this episode, which is one step closer to freedom, right?

That lift is open. Yeah. So, again, I think we should take everything he says with a grain of salt. But Spader has says, and we'll get to this quote, but Spader has said basically that Ultron's sort of view of humanity has shifted where we find him here. But I do love that scene from a veteran's age of Ultron. And so, like, thinking about that about, you know, before there is what is grief but love persevering, we have this concept of like a thing is a beautiful because it lasts. Yes.

Right. And so another way to frame grief of like when you think about something like Westview and vision inside of this episode having such a trauma response to even any images of Westview. And he's like, we don't play that. I don't watch that. It is nothing to do with me. I don't want to know about it. Yeah. And Ultron's saying essentially like, is that because there's nothing to do with you or because

it's so painfully full of hard emotions that you can't bear to look at it? And there's the grief part of it, but there's the like celebration of the beautiful just because it didn't last, just because Wanda's gone. Though nobody's saying she's dead. But just because Wanda's gone. Yeah. Just because Westview ended doesn't mean it wasn't beautiful and isn't worth celebrating. I have also.

always loved that Ultron scene. We reference it quite a bit, you know, across the years covering Marvel. I was struck by, you know, the moments we'll get to that scene, but the moments that Vision is revisiting when he's in the pretty sick Mind Palace, private theater. Yeah, when are we building that for ourselves? Nice. Did you notice that only one of the chairs is like super comfy looking? Like, he built his theater and it's just like one super super.

comfy recliner chair for him? I would do, you know, some wider, cushier. Like a love seat almost? Yeah, but just for me. Yeah. As you know, I don't really want anyone near me when I'm watching. I do know this. A movie. I want to be a way far away from other people as possible. I want people to, like, hear laughter to know it's a shared experience, but I don't want anyone to be able to, like, throw a chicken tender at my head by mistake or like touch me or certainly cough on me. I love that scene. I was really struck by this for a couple reasons. One, just to jump ahead like a tiny bit, though it's early in the episode when we're first kind of exploring the mind palace and Vision says, you know, for a species that's so recently faced extinction, they certainly seem keen on trying to finish the job themselves, one at a time if necessary. It definitely intentionally a way playing against our memory of that scene and that exchange to say like, okay, the whole series, these two episodes, it's going to be about Vision saying, who am I? That's what this is.

Of course. But a lot of what we got in this first, the double premiere, these first two episodes was like, well, I had won. The earlier version of me had Wanda, a guide. I loved that description. Like a guide to love, a guide to relationships, a guide to humanity. And positioning that as the distinction, this Ultron scene, the one you just quoted, with Ultron and Vision, is before any of that. It is something innate about that character and all of the different. fathers and aspects of humanity that were rooted into his code. So I like thinking about, well,

it's not just the question of family, though this character, this version of vision has family, too, in a different form, as we'll talk about. But the idea that, like, he's almost willfully telling himself something different. There is actually a difference. And then also there is, like, a stubborn insistence that something has to be different. That's a fascinating place to start The other thing I just want to quickly say while we're like thinking back to that Ultron moment, I actually don't have a good feel for like what the wider MCU fandom response was to this specific thing. But I think it's worth saying, like, this is a pretty giant retcon that Vision was like going to keep some Ultron backup code on hand. This is like a pretty big reccon, you know, in an Ultron will say in this episode, like to clarify it undeniably for the viewer, you know, I didn't ask to be backed up and copy him

out of Sikovia and into the prison you made for both of us pretty funny. Vision, I feel like a mistake I'm going to make covering this season is just saying Jarvis Vision and Ultron incorrectly about these characters who are definitely connected. Apologies in advance, we'll do our best. You know, I don't want to kill Ultron. He's unique and he's in pain, but that pain will roll over the earth, so he must be destroyed every form he's built, every trace of his presence on the net. Vision is the character who said that in that movie. I had, it took me a little, like a minute to kind of work my way through that. Now I'm fine with it.

But I am curious if there's like a sliver of the MCU fandom that's like, wait, what? But the show kind of requires the idea that Vision has pulled all of these other. I think sliver is possible. But I also think that like not a, well, I could be wrong. I don't know. I feel like Ultron's one of those ones that like a lot of people don't revisit when they rewatched the MCU movies. Because it wasn't super beloved. and you can kind of a little bit skip it.

You know, you miss the creation of vision. You miss a few other things. But, like, in terms of, like, skippable Avengers movies, it is the most skippable. Yeah. Got a lot of the crucial content out there and the language memes, you know? It's true. You love a meme. Which is nuts because, you know, I'm barely online anymore.

I know. I'm basically, like, doom scroll, Instagram, and that's it. And my Instagram algorithm's in a great place. Good. It's in a, I mean. It's just wicker and pets? Bad for my time spent, my screen time. But yeah, it's just like so many cats.

And after I came back from Hawaii, so many, like, tropical locations. That's great. Should we go into our deep dive? Let's do it. I just noticed that our deep dive color scheme is a little mind-spacy, visiony. It's got the yellow and the sort of turquoise in it. That's right. Okay.

So what we're going to do, we're not going precisely beat by beat, just because these are two fairly sizable episodes of television? On the, what a twist and turn front. The episode length. The episode length, a shock to me. Okay. That they were an hour. I think just because WandaVit and Agatha were not,

so I'd made an assumption that they would be broadly in the 30 to 40-minute range. Then, of course, the fact that one and two, three, and four, and five, and six are going to come out together. So it's two hours of TV a week for people. So a lot. I hope that doesn't. We're glutton, so I like it. I like being able to watch multiple. I hope it doesn't diminish the volume of real-time consumption and discussion of the show.

But then they're doing- I thought about that. Like, Amber was like three hours at a time. Not the most viewed show, I guess. And also one of the ten best shows of the century. I don't disagree. I'm just saying like. I just hope people aren't like, oh, man, two hours. I think it'll depend how fun and exciting they find vision.

I think that two hours is child's play for. a lot of people. And then for some people, it's not so. So yeah, we're not going to go exactly beat by beat. We're sort of thematically clumping, but vaguely in order. We love to thematically clump. Okay. So this first section I'm calling previously on. Yes. And I just wanted to discuss this. We alluded to this earlier, but like, you know, obviously a long time, you know, since Wanda Vision, a conversation inside of the MCU has been, how much homework do I have to do before, You know, we did a whole episode rewatching Wanda Vision. You know, I rewatched most of Agatha.

I definitely rewatched Ultron. Same. You know, and like a lot of people bump up against that idea that they have to do homework in order to feel oriented. And as we mentioned on our Wanda Vision rewatch podcast, it has been a long time since White Vision flew out of Westview at the end of Wanda Vision. So, you know, if you'll remember in the early days of MCU television, they would do these, they would release these little, like, special packages of like, everything you know, need to know about Falcon, the Winter Soldier, Loki, you know, like Wanda, Vision. They built it into the show here. Like, we open with recaps of including footage and a voiceover and all of that. And then we get the cinema moment that we talked about.

And then baked into dialogue, we get a lot of expositioning, like, you know, know, Wanda did this or I was that and some of it clunks and some of it doesn't. But I was curious, I do think this is a better approach than not doing it at all and just assuming that people have done the homework on their own. Yeah. And I do think there is plausible coverage of here's the character who's trying to remember who he is. So for him to go back over his own memories is something that. And, you know, the opening one is a little, like, hit you on the head of the envelope. But that's okay.

Previously on the character of vision, that's fine. I think the cinema one is, like, quite elegant and fun. So, you know, slight mixed bag. But, like, how do you feel like this addresses that question of homework? Which we talk about in Star Wars shows as well and other things. Yeah. So I thought that this opening few minutes was pretty bad and very clunky and made me super nervous that the show was not going to be good,

honestly. And then as soon as we got out of it, I was like, okay, this is fine. As soon as the other AI showed up, I was like, you know, because even Fiona who's like, where's that redhead? I mean, we love Fiona. We love Fiona. I'm in active morning over my queen Fiona. I can't believe we didn't go to get to go to her tiny head in row, five for a roast. God damn it. I was screaming, protect Fiona at all costs. a bullet exploded her torso. I'm devastated. That being said, like, her one scene is basically like further exposition. Yes, for sure. The funny we last. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, on the, does it assuage people's anxiety that they missed a lot or, like, are they going to be

able to recall what they need to recall? Obviously, it is actually helpful. It is. I think weirdly, even though I agree with you, the cover of vision revisiting these moments from OG Vision's life makes sense. There was something about the voiceover that made me feel like it was just more, it was less previously on, even though that is how it functions, and more like the show starting in a way that just slightly tipped it into like, uh, not loving this. I thought like you that the home theater set up in the mind palace was like really wonderful. I thought that the deployment, you know, the way that the Ultron's attic loft stack of TVs was used to show us the footage from Tommy's Psychoval, like, things like that, I thought all worked really well.

And that still operates under the, that all still falls under the bucket of like, either a character who is revisiting a memory or a character in Tommy's case who has this, like an incursion of flashes he can't fend off. Right? Or we've got hackers and synths and AI and tech savvy assassins who can find what they need to find. Like in the flow of the show, it all works great. It's something about the opening. I was like, yeah. It's funny. The opening, again, there's just so much Star Trek DNA on this show. And the opening felt very like old school TV show to me. So like these are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise, like opening or even like the early seasons of Buffy. into every generation is born, you know, one girl in all the world or, like, sliders. There's just, like, a number of shows from, like, the 80s and 90s where this was, like, a common thing to do of, like, we're going to give you the premise of this show in voiceover at the beginning of every episode. They're not going to do at the beginning of every episode. They did it in the beginning of this episode.

But I'm not saying it doesn't make it feel clunky, but it almost made it feel, like, nostalgic to me, like, something I would find on the sci-fi channel or something like that in a way that I kind of liked. And Terry Metallis, like, coming up, not just running, start. Star Trek Picard, the third season, but coming up on the set, I believe Voyager and Enterprise, like really went to school with Star Trek storytelling. I think it's so interesting to see the unexpected DNA of that across this. And I think this is one of the places where you see that, you know. Yeah, I think in general homage across this TV trilogy, Wanda Vision, Agatha, and now Vision Quest is part of the fun of it. So broadly, I like that as well.

To your question about like does this helper or does this swage the anxiety or spark it? I don't know. I could definitely see it going either way. Mileage may vary. Like I'm sure there were plenty of people who were like, I feel caught up now and I didn't do all the homework. Let me tell you something. We obviously had both rewatched Wanda Vision for our WandaVision Revisited Pod. I rewatched Agatha this weekend after we had done that podcast. Just a wonderful show. It's so good. Having time in my life revisiting it. So I would encourage people to do it if they have a spare. I was going to, seven hours. I was just going to rewatch, and I told you this, but like I. I was just going to rewatch, and I told you this. But I was just going to rewatch from like the Billy Reveal. No, no, like I started in the middle. I was like, Billy Reveal Onward. That's what I'm going to do. And then I just like had to go back to the beginning because it was just like so fun and so good. It's great.

The best. I could see people feeling like, oh boy, this is, you know, multiple minutes of reminders of stuff that I haven't seen in six, however many, you know, longer for Ultron years and then feeling anxiety. But hopefully it felt like, okay, I'm caught up now. Hopefully. I don't know. One thing that he mentions in this sort of voiceover. is her name was Wanda. She made me feel real.

You already talked about Wanda as a guy, but I love this. Wanda as also creator, because we talk a lot about like Tony, you know, Stark and Banner as, you know, as Vision's creator. Ultron and Jarvis as, you know, Vision's creator. Like all, like, who's the father figure? There's a lot of options here. Jarvis being cast as the older brother, I think is interesting. But like, you know, these are all potential like father-esque figures.

But like Wanda as ever as like the divine mother, like what, you know, what she did to create who vision is. She made me feel real. And Bettney has in like almost every single interview that he's given about the show introduced this sort of like binary of storytelling of when you tell the story about the invention of a creature. And he's like you can either have the Pinocchio like, I'm a real boy. like I'm excited to be alive or you can have the Frankenstein, why have I been burdened with his existence and who made me and, you know, blah, blah. And he was just sort of like thinking about those two examples as he's thinking about vision. But, you know, like Wanda made me a real boy, essentially, you know, like I just think that Wanda as creator of vision is so interesting. I love that as well.

And I think, you know, with Ultron there in age of Ultron and then again on the recurring beat front in the premiere here, I've, you know, no strings on me, singing Pinocchio lyrics. Like, it's on our mind there as well.

But, like, I think that because coming out of Westview, the idea of Wanda's creations as this, like, foul, wrong thing, right?

From a character like Hayward or sword, like the people who are like, our favorite, people we really respect. Let me tell you. More sort. mentions as well in these two makes complete sense, but I'm like, I don't really need to be thinking about sword. These two episodes are ever again. I'm good. I'm good. I agree. I'm hoping,

we'll get to it in theory corner, but I'm certainly hoping that the sheer volume of sword mentions is just real red herring. Like, none of this is going to involve sword stuff, but we'll find out. But yeah, you know, to have those, those obviously our emotional reaction to watching Wanda vision and everything that happened in Westview in that show is like, you know, to the grief, love persevering idea. The fact that Wanda's depth of feeling and love for vision was strong enough to create a new version of him, a family. Obviously, there were some bad things like keeping 3,000 citizens of Westview under mind

control for a hot second there. A hot second there. We had some notes. We talked about that. How long? It's like a week, right? It's like a couple weeks, maybe? Maybe a couple weeks ago.

I mean, it's more than no time at all. The thing we talked about in her bed. The thing we talked about in Wanda Vision is like Wanda not realizing really what she did until she did, you know? The fact that there's like the just creation of a human experience before any of that is like such a beautiful thing to be able to remember. And, you know, this vision, feeling his distance and removed from that, but also clearly putting such stock in it. value in it. Really great place to find this version of the character. So, you know, part of that creation before, you know, when you think about it, like us seeing vision look like Paul Bettany, that comes from the world they created when they were in Edinburgh together. Like that's,

that's the Wanda Vision stolen life that Fiona bore witness to, you know what I mean? So when she's like, that works, I think it works. Yeah, but like, that's a creation of vision is like, what if He looks like Paul Bettney, and we're all like, thank you. Thanks, Wanda. We're on different sides, different teams. We've got to meet up in Scotland to fuck. Good choice. Great.

Good choice. Sherwood Ellis is the adopted name that he has created here. And as Paladin points out, or as we find out, those are the streets in Westview where the home was not very stealth of Viz. Vision's saying nobody's looking for me, not even an Avenger. And I'm like, but you're in Edinburgh where you were known to be. Yeah. And this is your adopted name.

I have similar questions about Billy not being able to find Tommy when Paladin could find him in like two seconds. But then we've got the heart on the bar, of course, invoking, you know, the deed in Wanda vision and all of that. Very, very sad. Further Wanda Intel. Well, it's complicated, I guess. She was sort of crushed under the weight of a mountain. And Fiona's like, emotionally. But again, incredible stuff.

No one, including anyone on the press store, is saying Wanda is dead. Right. I mean, this is very reminiscent of the language in Agatha. You know, the yes, no, oh, wink, wink, maybe, who knows, you know, playing with us in a kind of fun way. You know, we talked about it on our Wanda vision revisited pot, and I think we both were like, Elizabeth Olson seems done with this, so we're inclined to say no, but that, like, so it stands to reason that we'll say hello again, line does feel like a promise to that. audience. So I don't know. I still am kind of undecided on how likely it feels, but obviously they're keeping the possibility open. Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't feel

like I would call that a promise, but the promise of possibility. Yeah. The promise of possibility. That's it. That's it right there. Little kernel. That's it right there. Little kernel. Where are you now after two episodes of her showing up here versus like in Avengers, Doom, Doomsday or Secret Wars or something like that. I don't know because to your broader point, the clock starting early on when Tommy showed up has recalibrated what I thought like the focus and pace of the show was going to be. This has been part of the pleasure or two episodes in, like different version of it. But I don't know, Paladin is like a much more present figure in the show than I thought.

So the balance is a little bit different than I was expecting. But in a fun way because then I don't feel like I have as much of a sense of like how it's going to go from here or what to anticipate. Again, I could have done with more Fiona. I do feel deprived and robbed of Fiona. You wanted that Sunday roast. Why do you think White Vision, who's on this, like, journey of self-discovery, never went to go visit Wanda between the end of Wanda vision and the beginning of multiverse of madness? I don't ever get an answer for that. I suspect nobody does.

And I kind of wonder if... I Wanda... That a line about nobody from... Because there's the, like, oh, vision is mistaken. in thinking that he's so off the grid. He's unplotable. No one will find him. No one's looking. Everyone has forgotten about him. Like, that's an exchange and that is quickly, he's quickly disabused of that notion. So it's there a little bit to be like, actually, you're about to get paladin. Right. Ultron already knows. Yeah. Yeah. And then the Ultron,

the carrier pigeon. And then the Ochoic called an email was so funny to me. I just got, I just get such a kick out of him. that line that you mentioned about the Avengers, like no Avengers. I never can tell when the MCU or any larger connected universe does something like that. If they're kind of like, we've checked the box of the audience wondering if anyone in the Avengers is looking for vision. I think the line where they were like,

why don't we call Banner or, you know, Clint Barton or whatever. And I just feel like that was so that people at home could be like, why wouldn't they call Banner or Clint Barton in this moment? Yeah. So there's not on the one hand, not always a great explanation other than because all of the characters can't always pop up to save the day, and that's how comic book storytelling works, and it's connected in many ways to the tradition of Down in the Little Corner,

you would say, like, as seen in issue, you know, whatever, right? But it has been a problem in the MS. We've asked this question before on Disney Bush's. But your specific question of why wouldn't Vision have sought out? That's a specific, really inside of this character set version of that kind of question that, like, I don't know. I mean, I guess the answer could be because he was not emotionally ready. He was early in his sort of journey.

He shot out of that skylight in the Westview Library. And guess what? Signature move. It remains a, Edith coming in through the skylight and then in the Edinburgh bar, the pub, just popping right back down. Skylight escape? Incredible stuff. Edith is fantastic. Okay.

Edith is great. Kills me. Viz just winds down in the walk-in. Every night? Fiona cool with that with Viz just like. When Fiona closes down and goes home and is like, my boyfriend's working a double. So no sex tonight, but I'm going to go home to watch some telly and my tiny little flat. Let me know if you want to come over for Sunday roast or next day leftovers.

I don't think she's checking the walk-in. She's gone. But does like vision closes every night? I guess so. Okay. Here's what I'll say. Having worked in places that have opening and closing shifts. You don't get keys and closing shift right away.

Fiona, very trusting. Very trusting last. To her detriment. I did when he closed the door on the walk-in. You know, I had a moment. where I was like, is this wise on the security front? And then, of course, very quickly, there's the exchange with Jarvis about running security checks and everything. So I'm like, okay.

I mostly was just thinking of Carmi and the Bear. Now, Vision is a vibranium since. So he could open the handle to matter what, but I was like, oh, no. Not a safe place to. Do you think Claire Bear could talk him out of the walk-ins? That's the question. Okay. That is the question.

Next section I'm calling home is just me. So you keep saying Mind Palace, which is what I said. They on the show call it, and in press call it the mind space. I don't know why you wouldn't just call it a mind palace when that is like... Beautiful about an existent... Well, it's a beautiful thing, but like the mind palace is like an existent concept. But sure, they call it the mind space, which I guess. White facade in the front, very white vision, red brick facade in the rear, very original vision to me.

And to me, I mean, like, I don't know if that's the intention. But to me, that's like, this is who he thinks he thinks he's. is his forward-facing thing, but his true self is there, just lurking in the backside of this building. When we watched the trailers, when I over-analyzed the trailers to death, we saw the red brick facade, and we sort of thought, like, over time, the White House would, like, maybe turn into the red brick house by the end of the show. But it seems like it's just sort of like front-of-building, back-of-building kind of idea. But I really like that as the duality of Yeah, exactly.

Great visual representation of this idea of like trying to, not only carrying an awareness of different, because often we talk with characters about what is like repressed, what is undiscovered, what is unknown. So much of our journey with Billy and Agatha, and we'll compare how that's, you know, the Tommy experience is different. And again, a fun way to have that be like related

and parallel, but quite distinct for reasons that we'll explore. You know, vision is like not only aware, keenly aware, cannot stop thinking about the fact that this other version, earlier version of me that I was then rebuilt from, had this whole life that I didn't have. And the fact, so like the idea that that's there, right there. And then if you just walked around the bend, you'd be able to see it. Yeah. Feels like a perfect, especially because this is a space that he has constructed for himself and his little AI found family that he's decided to go grab them. He didn't have to do that. He picked them all to go share the space with him, right? That all feels like really great. On the really great front. Our guy is just like ripping off a fit right away. Standing looking at the mind palace, suit, very...

Trench coat and a hat, the fedora? I mean, the hat, riefcase. The hat, thematically important. Yeah. Very, like, Don Drapery or, you know, Henry Bancini's Mr. Lucky, the theme plays when he walks in. That's the score that's playing when he walks in. That's a Carrie Grant film, so if you prefer, it's a very, like, Carrie Grant. kind of fit.

Which feels like continues the Agatha Wanda Vision tradition of like fashion from a different era. Oh, 100%. And I, and I think, you know, what everyone, all the AI are wearing and all of that is very important. And I, on the sort of like interior design, what era are we in front, you know, Ultron will later call it what like the psilocybin collection from IKEA or something like that. iconic line from Ultron. All of many. All of them are. But this is another like sort of color theory front.

The main color motif inside of the mind space of the mind palace, if you prefer, is a sort of turquoise blue and an ochre yellow, which those two colors match, if you've rewatched Age of Ultron recently, this sort of like really coolly rendered light clouds that represent Jarvis and Ultron. Jarvis being the goldy yellow color and Ultron being the blue color. It's also the color of the mine stone and then the blue chip that that sword puts in. So there's just this like duality of like the two greatest sort of like light based inspirations for him, Jarvis and Ultron. We get when we go into the mind space in the first place and we're zooming through this sort of like cool pixelated tesseracti kind of thing. It's that gold and blue color. You know, so like these are the building blocks of a vision. And then that sort of like the chip that made or the thing that the spark of life that made me, is it the blue thing that sword gave me?

Is it the yellow thing that Wanda gave me or the Mindstone gave me? You know, we talked about this at the end of Wanda Vision. Like what happened to White Vision when Hex Vision, three versions of vision, Hex Vision sort of unlocks the memories inside of him. and what happens to the blue and the gold inside of him. So I just love that as like, I mean, I think the production design on the show is extraordinary. And I think the opportunity for like fun, prop-based sort of explorations. You know, like, it's not beeping and booping and it's not Tony Stark. Tony Stark with like his like sort of screens and stuff like that.

Like all of that is very cool. But I think it's even cooler to see them like get on an analog phone or like get out the view. master or whatever it is, like all these fun, like, prop-based literalizations, like, for us to grok and understand what is happening with the AI, a schematic on a table, you know, like, Edith Mission Impossibleing down on top of it. Like, all of that is like so fun for me. But I think just even down to that sort of like blue and gold warring factions almost. Like I started to think about Jarvis and Ultron as almost like the devil and

angel on vision's shoulder. So like these are the two sort of like factions inside of him facets of his identity. And I just think it's beautiful. I like, you know, I don't think this show is perfect right out of the gate. But I think the work that they've done on this house. Yeah, it's awesome. I have no notes on. Yeah. I'm really enjoying it as well. I think the fact of like the extension of that, that, uh, color coding into just even the, uh, like the chyrons, the, the identifying nameplates that pop up for each of the AI. Of course, also there's the undeniable like, Stark Industries, Stark Industries, Stark Industries. So all of these things connect in a helpful fun way. The, um, bright light blobs of code manifestation of Ultron,

uh, and Jarvis in, in that, that, that blue and orange. G-L-L-O-T-L-ROM. Anything, anything, and so much, as you just outlined in the show, does this, anything that takes us back to that is, like, my favorite thing in the world, because one of the things that just kills me across the whole history of the MCU is the way in Ultron that they're like, he escaped through the internet. He's in the internet. We're heading to the internet. It's just, like, baffling. So I'd say that who, who Tony finds him when he went to like, let's go. at the internet, Charvis, you know, our friend in the internet.

Ira about you, Jane, Josh, muted shit. So, absolutely. It's so funny to me. So I just got a kick out of that little memory portal. On the production design front, we also have the like minestone motif everywhere, like in all these windows. My favorite being like the window up in the attic, which like at one point vision sort of leans his forehead against the minestone cut out window that is almost like, because we're in the attic is almost like the forehead of the house. Yeah, and especially because the lift is deployed so often, you know, to go up to visit Ultron, but also then he was like, oh, hello, that sprung open. I couldn't go down now. This question of, I like what you're saying about Jarvis and Ultron, angel devil, and they've, you know, in some ways been that since the minute Ultron came into the story.

But also there's a little bit of a, at least in a few moments, Jarvis is never like bad, but there's a little bit of a, complication when as vision has decided to go try to find Tommy and near the end of episode two. And, you know, Jarvis is like, spent all this time trying to convince you, human emotion, important good, be on your guard, actually. Like, you know, that he has to kind of switch the position that he usually occupies. And then Ultron, as you've noted, is like throughout these two episodes is spousing the virtue of art and, you know, he's surrounding himself by television, he's watching it, he's talking, He's got Bosch triptics, right, in his attic.

And he's like, you know, if you could go anywhere, where would you go? I'd go to the Prado, where that painting is, by the way. I saw that once in Madrid. Incredible. You're such a Bosch head. I am, actually. Both the prime video show and Hieronymus. You know, I have never watched the prime video show, Bosch,

but it is important to many of the men in my life. It is. The fact that the lift takes you from the head, the logic center. down into where do they gather to try to talk about feelings, the living room, the family room, the kitchen,

the heart, right? Like, that's just fun design that kind of heightens the thing we're thinking about anyway. I really like that. And then to your point

about, like, something like the viewfinder or the phone, you know, Jarvis, tough one, because we love Jarvis. Jarvis heads here, pulling a lever,

like a real physical, tactile, a tangible thing. A tangible thing. You know, yeah. All of that. Very Star Trek, by the way.

I think that the, overall design, the production design, the set of this mind palace, this mindscape, mind space, whatever we're calling it. We can call it mind palace. It's fun. It's cool, right? There's an energy to it. It has a specificity.

So like it works on that level. I think the idea that all of these, all of the AI are gravitating toward a very retrograde human rendering. That inversion is, I think, really effective. The idea that we as people, like, strive for advancement, right, for some sort of progress. And they're like... Tube TVs. Yeah.

Like that, because they want to be connected to something that is... Dot matrix printer. I mean, I like it thematically. And I also was wondering, I was curious about that. I was like, how much do you think that's thematic and how much... And how much do you think that's just, like, really cool production design? Like, we talked about this a lot when we talked about Loki. Like, the TVA has this retro tech design to it, which just looks cool.

Yeah. like to have tube TVs and all that sort of stuff like that. That's 60s ethos in the TVA. And so there's part of it that I think it works both ways. I think it's thematic and then I think it also just looks cool and is fun. Yeah, definitely. It looks awesome. But I think the idea that Vision, who has gathered these other figures to share the space with him

and help him navigate this journey of discovery could have been in some like shiny, glossy tech futuristic space, but shows a house. Yeah. You know, a house that you would share with a family and turn into a home is purposeful and quite effective. So I like it functioning in both of those capacities. Let's talk about that family. So I love that like vision.

You know, we talked about this when we did our Wanda Vision, revisited episode, but like the idea that Wanda creates the hex, creates this like reality for herself there. In Agatha, suppose for Agatha if you didn't watch it, Billy creates the Witches Road. Like Billy creates a reality, you know, and tie that inside that entire show. And then...

You and your mother have the same tell? Yeah. And then Vision creates... Vision, like, makes his own hex, essentially. And, like, makes... Wanda made herself a family. Vision makes himself a family. And what I like about this is, like, so Jarvis says to Edith, when he's trying to keep her

in line, Vision took great care downloading each of us graciously providing resonance here in his quantum processors. But what Ultron says is enslaving poor stark AI. And that's another one. Wanda Vision connection of like, are you creating this like beautiful Eden for everyone? You know, like when Wanda is confronted with the reality of what she's done in the heck, she's like, no, you're fine. Like I've made a storybook world for us all to play in, you know, and they're like,

can we see our children though, actually? And we're zombies and we hate this. You know, and so when Alton's like enslaving poor stark AI and Vision's like, that's not what I did at all. But he is the boss of all of them. He threatens to delete Ultron. He could threaten to delete anyone else in there. Like, he is the ultimate, you know, master of his domain the same way Wanda is.

So I just like that there is this, like, slight moral, like, funkiness to what he's created here. For sure, and on the Ultron no strings front, the idea that inherently, when Ultron comes into the MCU into the story, there's a humanity versus the artificial aspect to that. But then here, there's a, the person who's puppeteering. hearing the strings is vision and Ultron's desire to, and an effective way of reminding vision of that, so that he kind of can't deny it. You know, the other AI are also happy to be there. They seem so down and so chill.

But, like, yeah, exactly. All we've glimpsed is this little moment in time. But Jarvis is like, we've been doing this for a while. We've been here. We've been working through this with you for a while. So it's like, okay, was every, day just like Pratt falls through the skylight and like I ran some sims and a, you know, a racing vehicle? Is this a happy place replacing bulbs and polishing silver? Is that what he wants

to do? I don't know. How did he get breath on the silver, which is part of the simulation? I love this. I mean, are they eating those tomatoes? These are questions. Dude. Oldtron eats a biscuit, you know? The sesame chicken calzone, like, we don't need to eat. Thank you for bringing up both of those things because, first of all, this is on the, like, rich thematic text front, the fact that as Ultron observes, this is something Vision has chosen to include in this theater. In this space.

But also he's saying, I'm not that guy. I don't, I can retrace his steps, but I don't feel what he feels. I don't feel that connection to humanity. And yet he is desperate to drench himself in things that feel human, like waiting 40 extra minutes for your food to arrive

and then it's cold, as Ultron says. That was hysterical when Ultron brought up the sesame chicken. Kousel. And it was like, like, first of all, I thought this sounded great. But like, if you want us to eat, at least pick something good. And then this is at the end of an incredible speech. And they're all looking at him with clarity and suspicion.

And then she's like, this is very dry. This is great. Just incredibly entertaining. There's also, like, also weirdly, like, it looks like water in his teacup. You know what I mean? It's just sort of like it's right and it's wrong at the same time. Yeah. Yes.

On the, on the, on the Sesame Chicken Kelsone front. Yeah. Um, when I was, uh, having dinner with friends with a weekend, they made, they, they do this thing in their house where they make, they make a vegan, no, vegetarian version of a crunch rap supreme, like at home, essentially with like, um, beyond beef or something like that. And it was delicious. It was so good. It was really, really good. She reminds me you haven't made the dip yet. Oh, you're right. Okay. Great. No, thank you so much. I do forget. Um, something to think, don't. If you call me people, if you call me people, if you've got, if you've got, you guys. Call me people, I can guarantee you. Something to think about odd weed duck. There you go. Guarantee you, I'll never make you that dip.

But they made the crunch rush supreme. And then I was like, I was like, well, as everyone has said a million times over, every culture has its own version of like sort of the dough wrapped packet of something. And I was like, you could make this crunch wrap Supreme with like, you know, like with like Indian food flavors. We were talking about like, oh, you put panier instead of this, you know, or just sort of like, like, what's the Italian version? I was like, well, I guess that's a calzone.

But, like, you know, just sort of like the opportunities. And I was like, why not a sesame chicken calzone? You know? Delicious. Why not? I quite agree. Let's do just like a quick run. We've already been talking about them, but let's do a quick rundown through the family, shall we?

Okay. So we start with Jarvis. James Darcy here briefly. Reprising is his role where he played live at the live action, the real life inspo for Jarvis, Edwin Jarvis in Agent Carter and in Avengers Endgame. Yes. I love James Darcy. I was really excited that he was in this show.

I don't know if Jarvis is gone. Gone. But, like, anyway, I've... We've said goodbye before. Perhaps we'll say hello again. Security housekeeping encryption. Okay. That's him in the older brother role.

Okay. Friday. Socialization, humor, tactical ops. Humor is really weird to me because, like, I understand that, like, when we meet Friday in here, she's, like, helping him analyze his interactions and trying to explain it to him and stuff like that. He thought you wanted to shag his wife. She's so analytical. And, like, this is not who I would turn to for help with my, like, humor.

You got to go to Edith. He's a nonstop laugh. A firecracker. Friday. Female Replacement Intelligent Digital Assistant Youth. Interesting, Tony. Really interesting. Female and youth being in your name of your AI.

Interesting. It's not great. This is Orla Brady taking over for Carrie Condon, the great Carrie Condon, voiced Friday, of course, and Friday, among other things, who was a jarvis, a young female Jarvis replacement, was with Tony Stark when he died, among other things. I would cast her in like a sister, I don't know if like older, middle sister? Just right there with a potential scroll. Middle sister? Yeah, sure. Why not? Yeah. I mean, either obviously baby sister, Jarvis, older brother, so why not like, you know. Dummy and dummy and dumb you like frat brothers? Cousins I was thinking.

Oh, I mean, sure. Speaking of the bear, I was like kind of facky sort of like kind of friends of family cousin kind of stuff. That's great. As you know, and as listeners of the Ringer podcast network, no. No offense to you. Dummy, specifically. Longtime favorite, if mine. Just a long time favorite of mine. In there in the lab with Tony and, I mean, they both are, but so many key moments, so many laughs over the years. How much did you love that the Chiron for dummy said General Maiden's limb servo control and fire suppression? I fucking loved it. It took me back. Yeah. It took me back. For folks who don't remember, dummy. in the Iron Man movies is like there with the sort of, you know, to put out various fires,

was early missed, like just fucked it up again and again, again. There's a great supercut on YouTube of all of the dummy doesn't put out of fire moments inside of Iron Man. Last scene with Happy Hogan, right? Like that's the last time we saw Dummy at least. Holden on some stark tack. Yeah. This is Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer of Mischief Comedy, and I mentioned this in our trailer breakdown, But, like, mischief comedy, the play that goes wrong, they have like a whole series,

Peter Pan goes wrong, Christmas Carol goes wrong, like, this is the whole thing. My sister and my nephews are like obsessed with this. And when I told her, I was like, when I told her, I was like, two, they are very cool. When I told her two members of the company are in, she knew exactly who it was. She was like, oh, it's this one and that one. And I was like, without telling her anything about it. And I looked it up and she was right. And I was like, okay, she's like, they're the two standouts.

They're perfect. And then Edith. Recreational game theory weapons. Edith stands for Even Dead on the Hero. Of course, from Tony Stark, his gift for Peter Parker. She worked with Peter Parker and Mysterio. Sure. He sure did.

Emily Hampshire, 12 monkeys. She's Creek. Waiting for, I mean, again, a wonderful performance. I was waiting for her to be like, it's time to read some of Brad's texts. I haven't read some of Brad's texts or sent a drone toward him in. a minute. It's been a minute. I just, you know, Edith always makes an impact. She's really giving me, like, Vanelopee

from a Ruckett Ralph sort of energy, a big fan, big, big fan, baby sister, right, of the family. The way that Vision looks at her, like, when she comes in and she's just sort of like, nattering on about the Rubik's Cube and the parachute test and stuff like that, he's just, like, grinning at her

and just sort of like, just like, loves absorbing her energy. No surprise that the Bettney performance is wonderful in many respects. It's obviously always just a pleasure to listen to him speak as these different versions of vision. But those little expressions have been so good through two episodes that what you're identifying, the brightness in his face as he walks across the room to greet her when she arrives. But then the like the little kind of crinkled, perplexed look that he met Fiona's, when he says the thing about the mountain, you know,

crushed under the mountain. And Fiona, as you know, it says like, you know, it can feel like that sometimes. And he's like, you know, every little look tells us something about how he is processing and receiving some insight into human nature. It's just been really great. I was thinking about how long, Bettney, I mean, like, obviously he's been here voicing Jarvis since, like, day one. But how long he's been playing Vision specifically. In the St. Maven's, like, I'm here for the trap sort of sequence, there's a moment where sort of still wearing his human face. he looks at the guy at reception and he gives him like a head tilt and then like a scrunch face,

I'm about to beam, like, explode you. And I was just like, betty just like knows, he knows all the like sort of vision facial stuff to do to like, I'm about to like shoot a beam at you or whatever it is. And he gets to be pretty dark in a couple of the scenes in these two episodes. The paladin scenes, you know, the like, oh, that's the old me. Yeah. A very violent. The new me.

It's been fun to get that variance in the performance really good. Anything else you want to say about like this particular mix of characters? Again, on the Star Trek front, I just want to say like this is obviously a family, but it is also a crew. Like that Vision's body is the Starship Enterprise and he is the captain and this is his crew. And, you know, in terms of like them sitting around and try to figure out what they're going to do or all the different personalities together or stuff like that, like there's just like so clear what Terry Metallis is drawing from when he puts them together that way. And sort of like when he's under attack and they're sort of like the sets breaking apart and they're like, oh, battleships. Like this is just like a classic. The enterprise is under attack.

Like let's brace ourselves for impact, all that sort of stuff. It's like, it's really good. I'm very pro this crew and this space and the renderings inside of it so far. I think my only warrior question is the thing we already talked about at the top of the pod of like the characters who have all of this information at their disposal. How often will they just be repeating or reciting prior beats from the MCU? We already talked about that. Broadly, I think it's been just very fun, very specific and distinct, even though it is definitely connected to a lot of the Tony canon and the Stark canon and prior properties,

because we have the rule of the human avatar is just such a smart and makes sense for vision, the journey he's on, but it's just such a smart thing for the show to do, because then we can form a different depth of attachment to them very quickly, right? I think there is a sweetness, certainly, to this, okay, I'm saying that I'm different because I don't have this family, but I have formed this little family in a fashion. However, you know, like we were talking about earlier, not just the, like the comp that you made already to, you know, this is this I'm in control aspect, the parallel. all there with Wanda. I was thinking of one of my favorite lines in the MCU from Infinity War. When Dr. Strange says to Tony, like, unlike everyone else in your life, I don't work for you.

Real relatable content of all your friends are also your colleagues. Couldn't be us, couldn't be me. But the, like, fact that vision is forging a family in this mind palace out of other AI who he has plucked to basically help him on his journey, there's something touching and charming about it. It is different from what he can hopefully discover with Tommy. So, you know, and I think this is obvious, but there's also just the, I don't know, something intriguing about the fact that it makes sense for where we find him right now

at the beginning of the show, he has decided to surround himself with other machines in order to try to unlock the question of humanity. But what happens when he's actually around other people? And Fiona. And I love part of why genuinely Fiona. And I guess whoever walks into the pub. I mean, yeah.

I got to say, like, if you want to learn humanity doing like customer service. Well, I'm just like doing customers, like seeing the people walk in and out of a pub or in my case a bookstore or whatever. You know, like that sort of parade of humanity is very educational. Yeah, for sure. And I think with like, you know, he's in the car with Tommy at the end. So that's very promising. I think with Fiona, it was interesting that he kind of said again in the way that there is a distinction so far between what he is saying and kind of forcing himself to insist upon both them what is pushing, what little like spring is pushing through the concrete crack and blooming into something. What will say across these two episodes like, that person didn't mean anything to me.

I have no really, but doesn't calls her calls are his friend, you know? Or like Tommy's not my kid, but like. Like, I will charge in and kill everyone between him and me, you know. And I loved that shift across the episodes. And obviously Ultron is pressing, pressing, pressing, but from it's impossible. It's not true. Possible. I was going to do it anyway.

But then when you gave me that I know what you're about to do, look, I had to. Luke Skywalker, you're with us always. I literally can't help it. Oh, ma'am. That was fun, right? They're like, why do you keep saying something's impossible, but also then the clarity that we have that, like, it's not that he actually thinks it's impossible. It's like, that he's like, that's a different, it's a different guy. Like, do I get to claim that? Do I get to feel close to that? What does it mean to open myself up to? And there's a journey inside of just these two episodes. I think both. I think like, you know, he's like, hey, the heck's ended. Like, that's it. And then he's like, uh-oh. He knows the grief love persevering line. Uh-oh. Okay. The Madman in the Attic. This is the last part of the family, right? So Vision is watching home movies and his mind movie palace. Anything you want to say. but the choice of footage, obviously, like, very Wanda-focused. It was nice to get, in addition to some Ultron unsurprisingly and some Wanda Vision

unsurprisingly, a little Civil War footage in there, which, you know, Vision gets up to some stuff in that movie. So, you know, I think, I think it's just interesting to think, you know, given that he calls for that clip, and there's like an identifier, right? It's a number or the alpha, et cetera. How many versions of this has you watched? Like, he says, you know, quintillion simulations is something that he says to Paladin. And the idea that these quantum processors are in a very human rendered space, sitting down in a not big and comfy enough armchair to revisit this. It was really striking to me that it was a montage.

I think that's mostly for us as viewers at home. But it's like it's not just new database. Then the next database, there's like a kind of thematic pairing. There's an emotional quality. There is basically a human being sits down to watch a movie or television aspect of it, which of course is a connection to Wanda. Nearly blows the circuits when Ultron tells Dummy and You to turn on WandaVision. What I love about Dummy and you.

And like when they're in their sort of like movie palace, bellhop uniforms, pick up the phone, do what Ultron tells them to do. No questions asked. They just do it. I love the sort of like, who told you to do that, they point up, you know, sort of moment, really good. Enter Ultron and his truly incredible addict set. I love this set so much. Amazing. I think it's incredible. The bank of televisions, all of the art.

Just really, really good. Does the idea of an elevator inside of subconscious and especially like locking away dangerous things in certain places make you think of Cobb and Mal in inception? Impossible for it not to, I think. I mean, Nolan was actually also on my mind when, and Tommy and Lisa were talking and Tommy was saying, which we learn then later is a lesson that, you know, we hear this first at the end of episode one, then we learn in the bus scene at the beginning of episode two that this is something she actually taught him. But this idea of like reinvention,

it made me think of the young man and Cobb from following, actually, right? Yeah, so Chris Mill and all over this. It's a skeleton key to understanding who Chris Nolan is. Some might. Ultron once hellbent on destroying humanity has changed his tune. He's now fascinated by them. Almost aspires to be one of them. This is what James Spader said about it.

Quote, he's come to appreciate humanity, not in a begrudging way, but in a conditional way. So we get this like 50-50 coin flip idea of like I might go to the Prado or the Louvre or. Yeah. The Modern, which is interesting. Yeah, Tate Modern? Maybe. Yeah, MoMA. I've just never heard of anyone call a museum the Modern.

Yeah, Tate Modern, great museum. Someone on Reddit, someone on Reddit suggested it was a James. Spader Easter egg because apparently I think what I read was that the modern is the name of the cafe at the MoMA and that James Spader is known to like haunt the cafe at the MoMA in New York

interesting. So maybe it's like this is a Spader. Wonderful cafe. Wonderful cafe. 50-50 coin flip. Real Targaryan odds for old Ultron here. Will he go like take in an exhibit or will he kill everyone? It's a good question. So a couple

things that I really liked about this. One, I think, like, the idea of all the simulations and the number of times they've been in these scenarios, it just makes you think of, like, probability and, you know, AI's running scenarios and the idea of, like, what does the math actually tell you? Yeah. Might be possible. That just feels like a part of the DNA of the show, right? And kind of breaking through, actually, that I've run the numbers approach into, what does it feel like to talk to this person or to consider the outcome and make a choice. The 50-50 coin flip from our guy Ultron, I mean, I think my feeling watching these first two episodes was, and I loved this, I probably inside of the span of every sentence found myself vacillating, right?

Like wanting to believe that the thing that he was saying was true. And also feeling a deep skepticism because he's Ultron. I think it's both. Yeah, yeah. That's where I am. Not it could go either way, but that Ultron is capable of both genuinely trying to urge vision out of the nest, like push him in a direction that will be good for him while also engineering his own escape. Yes, right, because there's always the question of what is his motivation and what is he benefiting from.

You know, the fact that he later at the end of episode two is like, Jarvis wouldn't have been my first choice or my second. It's like, really? The security guy. I know. You and I are both. You and I are completely aligned on that. That it like, to me.

Of course that was you you're trying to do. It felt like he actively talked, you know, a noble self-sacrifice, like actively whispered Jarvis into his own death. And like, you know, I don't know if, you know, like, I guess you could say, oh, dummy and you would have been his. But no, he wants the guy who's in charge of security off the board. And the one who has Vision's ear the most, right? So that's obviously boring. I really, I really agree with it. Here's my little carrier pigeon.

But it's so funny because, like, it's an almost an aside to himself. Like the way it's delivered doesn't feel performative, but I was like, of course you want Jarvis out of the way. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah. But I also maybe believe in when he's like he was a good guy. Yes, right. And I think that complexity is just delicious. And it's one of the reasons that he's an interesting character to watch.

And like certainly one of the reasons why retcon or not, obviously connections to vision and this idea of like a reset, a rebirth. Well, the person who was there when you were born for the first time, it just makes sense to experience this journey like next to. the idea that Ultron also would be on that journey. This has been one of the master strokes of this trilogy. Like, yes, Wanda Vision is about Wanda, but it's also very much about that version of vision, and it becomes a little bit about the other characters as well. Monica, Agatha.

Tommy and Billy, like the origin of that. Agatha, that's just one of the incredible pleasures of that show is how we come to realize over time that we're on that journey with all of those characters, right? This kind of question of, well, what's waiting at the end of the road, right? What are you working toward? But really, like, how did you find yourself in a place where you were going to go on this journey in the first place, right? So the idea that we have these questions with Ultron where we're like, when he's sitting there in front of those screens, taking that all in?

When he's like, I'm a true crime junkie? And I'm like, do you think that Ultron listens to the podcast? Has he listened to Justin Sales, do the wedding scammer? Like, this is just amazing? He loved the one. He's waiting for season two, the wedding scammers. Aren't we all? Aren't we all?

As are we all. You know, and talking about art and having that relationship to it and the things that he says, the thesis he has seen, there's a manipulation. And there is a, I'm saying no strengths, but I want to be the one holding them always aspect to Ultron, undenilably. But there is a feels like a real truth in the connection he has formed to these human experiences. We're on the same page. That's great. Well, what I think is interesting, and we're about to talk about Paladin, but. Yeah.

I feel like a lot of the villains we're meeting in this show are people. who have a chance for redemption on the other side of it as well. Or like I just don't think it would be satisfying for Ultron to just like be the villain of this show. I think it should be much more complicated than that. Yeah. And it feels like thematically in terms of the overall kind of mission of the trilogy and how much worse of this has been part of the Wanda experience, but where we seem to be starting with this version of vision is like we should probably want to believe that that's possible for Ultron a version of it. but is that something that the show knows we're going to be inclined to feel and is maybe going to play with?

I guess that's a possibility. I just think that like having come off of Wanda where it's like Wanda hero or villain, that's something you can debate off of Wanda vision. Agatha, for sure what I mean? Exactly. Like the entire journey with Agatha where we definitely thought it was going to skew harder towards redemption and it doesn't. Right. But then there is also, you know, a protection for Billy at the end of the day. You know what I mean?

But like, but she is as villainous as she said. You know, it's just like it's these three shows. Yes. More than your average MCU property, I think, like to hang in the gray, the moral gray. Yes. And there's a messiness to it that is just compelling dramatically. Yeah. Because it's not clean.

But in terms of what this is interested in exploring for vision specifically, maybe for Ultron, specifically, across the trilogy it fits. there's maybe no better place to do it than here because of the question that the machines are asking, what does it mean to be human? That. Right. It's the gray. It's the mess. It's the complexity. It's like I am not just easily categorized as one thing either or always good, always bad. Like, I don't know if you've heard. Conflict is the human heart. Yeah. It's the only thing worth writing about. It's the only thing worth writing about. That's true. This is our shit. So like I think I'm not surprised that we feel this way about Ultron through two and want this to be the Ultron story.

Yeah. I'm open to other possibilities, but it feels like it's so perfectly of a piece with what this overall slice of story in this universe is, like, interested in exploring not about what it means to be a witch or a, a, a sin, or an AI, but what it means to be a human being trying to figure out how to navigate loss, desire, ambition, all of it, right? And the inherent contradictions inside of all of that. A man must have a code. Let's talk about Paladin.

A surprisingly large part of this show thus far, two episodes in, is Paladin, a comic book character, a long-running comic book character, played by Todd Stashwick, who is Terry Mattalus's like guy. This is his guy. He's in 12 monkeys. He brings him in for the third season of Picard. He has like a really good role in Picard, I will say. So it makes me sort of more optimistic than I might otherwise be because Paladin thus far to me feels like he's in a slightly different show than the rest of the show does. I feel similarly about Lisa. Like Lisa and Paladin are not sort of folding in exactly the way that I want them to thus far.

I'm not saying they won't. But like anytime we're sort of like out of the mind space, I'm not having as good of a time as I am inside of the mind space or with Ultron or something like that. So I'm interested to see where this all goes. Quick Paladin, Cogacquick character, a story created by writer, Jim Shooter, and artist Carmine Infantino. First appeared Daredevil January 1978. He's a mercenary, more of an anti-hero than a villain. He's thunderbolted, but who amongst us hasn't thunderbolted in their day. Name for the lead character in Have Gun Will Travel, which is a fact I learned from Euphoria Season 3.

That's right. There's a bird named Paladin from Have Gun Will Travel. So that is where that name comes from. That's funny. So he has a code. The reason I think Paladin, and I actually don't know, like maybe he's only here for like the first third or the show, I don't know how deeply involved he's going to be in the entire show. But the moment where he shows up and he's like, no civilians and kills a guy for betraying that code. Or later when he kills our guy.

Dollar's Ed after Dollar's Ed is the most cartoonishly villainous character to ever exist. Clancy. So that we could all just sort of like delight in Paladin dispatching, tasing him and then shooting him in the head. Yeah. Like all of his kills so far have been like people who mistreated out, like the person who killed Fiona and the person who tormented Tommy and Lisa. Right. And so that puts Paladin in a like his interests are counter.

to Vision's interests. But, like, I don't think you have a character do that. Say, no civilians. Yeah, yeah. Without a hope of, can we plausibly redeem him or put him on a different side of the conflict before the show is over? Do you know what I mean?

Yes. I think that there is some aspect of just establishing for us, this is a character bound by rules like governed by rules that will position us to, like, maybe anticipate or better understand quickly

even for hour-long episodes, it's only eight episodes, how he behaves. But I agree with you. It felt like, oh, you think this is wrong. And the like rundown that we get of the line, he's not the paladin, he's a paladin, and what that... Dread pirate robber of mercenaries. What that mantle means. It's not just the question of is that person, hero, villain, anti-hero. It's, you know, we get that line, like, doesn't matter who they're going after.

hero, villain, like, the contract is the contract, right? He does all of it believing himself to be righteous. Yeah. So, you know, the fact that, like, we have the voice on the other line, the handler. Then we have hacked by the client. I'm like, a bounty hunter getting a call from the client. What is this? Mando?

You know, where's Grogo? We're all asking, where's Grogo? I will say. Are we? I'm always asking where's Grogo. Always. Can we talk about the handler for a second? Yeah, please. Go ahead. So comedian Diane Morgan, who's great.

That's definitely an AI, right? She's alone in a room. In a very, like... Weird little office room? Yeah. And also just something about the way that the screens were behaving. I know it's there to tell us, like, firewall breach, but there was a kind of glitch aspect of it that made me think, like, we're in the Matrix, sort of, you know?

I think she's definitely an AI. That seems like likely in a good bet for Theory Corner. She was amusing. She was entertaining. I think the, so the fact that we go from Madman in the Attic, I love that, I love that turn of phrase from you, and Ultron's saying things in that scene that are just riveting poetry. You don't see the pain and confusion.

That's when he asks, he asks Vision to look at the painting. What do you see in? Visions like brush strokes, the mathematics of paint, luminosity. composition and Ultron says, you don't see the pain and confusion or the anger. Ultron also loves Bosch. Exactly. Exactly. The prime video show.

I kind of think anything that has to follow right on the heels of that, it's tough. It's a tough ask. Like, that's just amazing. Paladin entertaining. I thought like the, a couple things. One little bit of a, in addition to what you've identified about, okay, are we being primed for some little kernel of moral fiber that maybe we can latch onto. There's a little bit of a humor and a charm to him.

There is. There is. The scene when, you know, lures a vision back to Fiona's pub, and he's kind of mocking him. Like, you know, you can't have a drink, twists the guts, and he's like, honestly, as I get old, you know, same. And I was just like, I kind of like this.

I don't know. I think the big surprise is, as we kind of indicated in our big picture thoughts at the top was sheer screen time. And I, you know, ultimately will, I see how I feel about that at the end of the season, if that continues to be the case across the episodes. We have characters in this two-part premiere, Edith, most of all, saying more than once, he feels like a level one boss, not the big bad. Oh, yeah.

So who hire Paladin is one of the big theory corner questions of these two episodes? It's the biggest theory corner. Yeah. Is the question most people feel preoccupied with? and they're like, Mephisto? No. Actually, Sharon Carter, which like, heaven forfend, it better not be Sharon Carter.

Dude, seeing Madreport in a headline of a newspaper clip. Madrepoor mentioned and Sharon Carter theorized, I was like, please don't take me back to the Powerbroker. I can't go there. Real rollercoaster journey of like, oh, Madreport, maybe we'll go back fun into, oh my God, but it isn't that? Powerbroker plot is waiting.

Oh, no. I can't do Sharon Carter. I think that even though it is clear to all other characters into the viewer at home, We get the calls from the client. This is a, so you've committed a faux pa by hacking my systems, all that. And like the voice is heavily distorted. Yeah, yeah, who is it?

Okay. Theory fodder, our brains are activated. That's all fun. We'll talk about that in Theory Corner later. This, like, reminds me of when you were analyzing House of the Dragon trailer, you're like, that seems like a feminine gait. I was like, is that a male intonation or a female intonation? That's my.

Yeah. Yeah. even though something else is waiting for us to discover there and the breadcrumbs are abundant already, Paladin being more present in the story through two episodes than say, in a meaningful way, then say the Salem 7 and Agatha, I think is a good thing. We'll see. But I kind of think that there's been a little bit too much of a impulse in the MCU shows to say, we need some other, like dusting, sprinkling, little garnish of a potential threat that isn't actually really ever developed in the story? I think the problem I have is that it's pinging like sword for me. It's pinging whatever

his face. I refuse to remember his name, Tyler or something. Right. Right. Word? Yeah. From Wanda Vision, which I did not like. And so I'm just sort of like, I don't want, I agree. Yeah. The performance is much more, like, much funnier, much more charming. I like this actor. Like, I, you know, I am optimistic that it's going to go somewhere. But right away, I'm just like getting. Sure. Like that any, like I said, anytime we left the hex, it wasn't as fun for me as being in the hex. The Hayward stuff in WandaVision was not good. So if this is, if this is the show's version of that, I won't at the end of the season feel good about it. I'm inclined to hope that there's just more to this. But maybe I'm just like, yeah, when you get older and you have a lot of whiskey, you do have a tummy ache. I'm rocking with Paladin so far. I don't know. Dog grooming the van. Like it's fun. Here are the two main things seemingly preoccupying the Marvel Studios Reddit post these episodes. Yeah.

Number one, who's the client? Sure. Number two, why didn't Vision kill Paladin when he's so happy to kill so many henchmen and he just lets Paladin walk away multiple times when he could have just killed him? That seems strange. Where on that list, if those were one and two, is Hatwatch? Three? Four? Not as important to Jen Pop as it is to us.

I mean, Vision showing up in that hat and then Ultron making a big speech about maybe I'm a hat guy now and then looking at himself and it's Spader in the foreground, but then in the mirror, it's my brainium ultra on their hat. Putting a hat on a robot. Incredibly good. It's just like one of the most delightful things of everything. Oh my God. And the journey about to begin. And then at the end, of course, he's got his hat.

He's wearing hats. We're like, uh-oh, Ultron's journey is beginning. What does that mean? Hatwatch is a big part of my theory corner experience so far. Not killing Paladin. Look, you're right. Should Hatwatch replace wig watch? No.

We actually got an email from a listener asking if lace on the face, a K. Beard Watch should replace wig watch inside of this episode. A wig of a fashion? A wig of a sword? We're bringing back wig watch, though. So it's happening. I hope so. Okay.

No, I think Wigwatch can never go and Hatt Watch and Beard Watch and whatever other watches just have to coexist alongside Wig Watch always. Not Killing Paladin doesn't make sense in terms of the just reckless abandon of when vision. It doesn't make sense at all. And that's okay. It's fine. Because like the story's got to continue and that's the answer. Paladin has the strongest armor in the world plot armor.

Yada, yada, yada. Yeah. We wanted to keep this after a round. The fact that Vision is in no way. tormented by the death toll is pretty funny to me. Like, the, the, the guy he goes up to it at St. Maven's and is like, I'm here for the trap. We're just in like Voldemort confetti territory with like what that laser being caused to that guy. Oh yeah.

Well, then we get like the wide shot of the hospital and it's just like blood clouds spattering against the window. He killed a ton of people. The show's a little more considering how candy-coated cute it is, compliment, to be clear. it's a little more violent than I was anticipating. Also a compliment. Like I think that that blend has been kind of a... Yeah. It's like when people just stayed dead in Agatha and I was like, what?

I know right. Yeah. I was like, all these people are definitely coming back and they're like, nope, Sharon died. And I was like, what? Dude, I remember talking about this and we loved this at the time, but like deep, deep, deep into the season when Sharon's name comes up again. And Agatha's just like, who? Um, wait, can I say a listener, A listener emailed after our Wanda Vision episode to remind me

of how I lost my mind when Paul Bettney in an interview said he got the chance to act opposite comments on the pod on the pod post about this too. An actor that he like most had most wanted to work with. And he was talking about himself. But I lost my mind and like combed through anything I could ever think of. and I think that's probably how I led it with El Bichita Mephisto, among other things. But I was just like, I lost my mind and it turned out Paul Benning was talking about himself. I was like, oh yeah, I lost so many hours of my life to that.

Dude, these are just things of how much. We were all just trying to make it through. All right, a speedy backstory. Let's talk about Tommy. Man, the old you would have responded with Mediore while let's try something new is just a sick bar from Violent Vision. I'm ready to move on. Very good. Okay.

After watching WandaVision Paladin and his quote handler. aka AI. Doing two seconds what a witch teen and his ghost babysitter could not do, which is fine Tommy. What do you think about that? Doesn't make any sense to me, but we can figure it out. I mean, is there like, I don't know, is there something magically keeping Billy from Tommy? I don't know. That's possible.

You know? Yeah. But it just seems like really weird that they were like, Billy seems so powerful. Yeah. Juiced up with the aid of Agatha and they cannot in all their magic find Tommy. A person that he made, like, he found the body in the pool or whatever. Like, he can't, like, locate that. But Paladin to his AI is like, find me any Tommy.

And she's like, here's one. He mentioned Westview. I would encourage Billy and ghostly Agatha, if she's still helping him, to revisit Asia Voltron, as we already discussed, and remind themselves that it's in the internet. all your witchcraft and your magic, fine, good, handy in a pinch. Paladin and his handler are just like, and there are the psych of Alteams. Did Billy try a computer?

Where's Ralph Boner? Is Ralph Boner still help? Because Ralph was, he's on the message boards. Oh, he's dialed in. Diled up, dialed in. I miss him. I do too. Maybe we'll get another Boner cameo.

Do you think Boner took a trip to Edinburgh? Something to think about. Okay. So Billy put Tommy in the body of. Thomas Shepard. This is comic book bullshit, but I just think it's always think it's funny that Billy found William Kaplan and Tommy found Thomas Shepard. So they found two boys with their names to have their soul shards implanted into. So as you alluded to earlier, Tommy's memory slash reincarnation doesn't work quite like Billy's, right?

His mind is kind of dual occupied by Thomas Shepard and his whole traumatic backstory and being in and out of foster. care and all the things that happened with Thomas Shepard and haunted by the memories of Westview as well. So like unlike Billy, Tommy was never put under the sigil that Lillia puts William Kaplan under. So that's part of it. No bar mitzvah sigils for Tommy Shepard. Here's the section from his interrogation, right, which I just loved this writing. He says, a house only haunted like the air itself.

was having a laugh to describe the laugh track. That is such a good line. Like the air itself was having a laugh. Like an audience that wasn't there. And there were meatloves and green lawns, pixelated almost. Then he says,

there was a man, his face like a demon, blood red, like a deep purple bruise with these kind eyes. He wasn't human, but he called me son. I loved that. And I do think that Rory rhymes with brewery is a fantastic actor and performs this really, really well.

Some of the details are different in terms of what we find out about what happened in the pool, but it's a very similar backstory to Tommy who, like, accidentally evaporated his entire school, that there is like something calamitous happened because a teenager didn't understand his own powers. His parents aren't really in the picture in the comics. It's like a divorce, but his parents aren't really in the picture. In and out of detention centers, this is like Speeds backstack. in the comics. And inside of the detention centers

in the comics is where he meets. Lisa, who we meet with him first on the grift and then later in the bus. Anything you want to say about this difference between Tommy and Billy and the ways in which the memories of who they were and who they are are sort of at war in their heads? I think this is, to me, ideal when the show is connected to something we have watched

before but giving us a slight twist on it, a different version of it rather than just rehashing more familiar material. Because the fact that they're having distinct experiences makes sense given the context that you noted, the sigil, etc. Yeah. But it also just helps them feel simultaneously connected and like their own people and their own characters, which they are.

So I think that's, it's smart, but really what it does. It's like this. And we don't have to call him the teen and pretend that he's not talking. Yeah, exactly. And we talked about that a little bit on the Wanda Vision pot, that that was exciting, that from the word go, it was going to be like, we carried information with us that. It was exciting and annoying at the same time.

For sure. Yeah. Like, you know, that we were just like, this is Tommy. We know this is Tommy. And like, we didn't have five weeks on the internet of Theory Corner

or another thing that we all knew. It was true. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think the fact that Tommy is in this place where, on the one hand, we can hear in the like, you know,

why grifting is better than being a pickpocket than lifting wallet scene. And he and Lisa are together, you know, completing a Mahabhad Ali quote and talking about like the power of reinvention. The power of reinvention, the idea that you can decide who you want to be. Who you are is less important than who you pretend to be. It's in this show, of course. But also the idea of feeling completely destabilized by your sense of self or lack of sense of self. also very, very at home in this show.

And so I think finding Tommy in a place where, you know, we hear like the description of when the paladin little message, the transmission entered the Mind Palace at the end of episode one, after Ultron sent his email via Carrier Pigeon. I just can't get enough of referencing that wonderful stuff. And of course, as we should note, they, you know, we're talking about our suspicions of Ultron, but that also leads to just discussion among the characters.

of like, wait, you did this thing. And then throughout episode two, Vision is like, this is the, like, what's happening with Tommy is the consequence of what you did Ultron. So that's keeping the suspicion very active for vision as well as for us. But, you know, the language of, like, fired a bullet into your brain was the description of how that pallet and message came in. And so there's this question of vulnerability. Like, but this is kind of what happened to Tommy, who you are, having that, like, restored,

being able to see it clearly in a way. that Billy actually couldn't, should be good, but it isn't, right? It is presented to us as unbearable, impossible to understand, impossible to navigate. It leads Tommy to not trust himself, and it leads everybody around him to tell him he's not well, right? It leads, like, we can hear the doctor's voices on the end of that tape saying, an orphan who, like, went from foster home to foster home so desperate for a family that he invented one. Like, the fact that nobody around him for a minute is inclined to say, let me help you. They're just telling him that he's unwell is so devastating. When Vision shows up and he's like, you're not real, you're not real, you're not real, by the way,

I have a note for Vision, which is like, he walks into the hospital in his human guys. At some point, switches into, like, white vision mode. And that's the mode he decides to, like, sort of enter into Tommy's room. And I'm just sort of like, put the bomber jacket back on my guy. Like, what are you talking about? Like he described you as a demon and you show up in white vision robot form. The form most likely to trigger him. Let's talk about our girl Lisa Mulanari. Okay.

Comic book character, right? Created by Paul Cornell, Mark Brooks for Dark Rain Young Avengers from May 2009. She's got kind of an incredible ultra-ego name in the comics that I don't want to spoil. I'll just like leave it hopefully for later, but it is very good. But we have our eyes on her. I have my eyes on you, Lisa, especially as you run around talking about wearing other people's faces. This is a quote, I killed a man and then wore his face to escape capture. She then said, just kidding, I'm a pickpocket, but I don't know, Lisa.

It's a weird thing to say. I'm worried about you. I have some questions, comments, and concerns about Lisa. Yeah, that made me nervous as well for Lisa, but just also more broadly, like the being on guard for people in this story doing that. Oh. You know, in this question of like what identity is real? wearing faces? Just masquerading as another form.

Like I feel like that line is obviously there for a reason. Maybe it's to make a suspicious of Lisa. Some real sense of the lamb shit? I don't know, man. I mean, yeah, I don't know. How many skin suits will be in this movie? It's hard. It's, or the television show, hard to say.

I think that is a very conspicuous and alarming line and the very, like, quick, yeah, switch to, like, you know, I saw the badge after I looked at the wallet. Like, I'm here because I stole money from a cop. Did not distract us from how alarming that comment was. But I thought they were very cute together. You know, the bus, the original meeting. I will say the bus scene really annoyed me. Tell me what? I liked Tommy and Lisa on the Gryft.

Yes. I love a con, you know, real Better Call Saul, Kim and Jimmy Energy. Like, I really liked it. The bus really annoyed me because I thought that Clancy, the character that our guy, Ben Crompton, Dollars Ed, played, was so cartoonishly evil. It, like, took me out of the whole thing. And I just, like, it really bothered me. Too many cattle prods apps for you. It was just, like, insanely written.

I thought, and weirdly performed from an actor we know is, like, actually quite a good performer. And so, like, I just, I really disliked that. I did, like, the escape. I liked seeing Tommy's, like, because Tommy speed in the comics is not just, like, cannot just go really fast, but he can generate hypercynetic vibrations that accelerate the molecules in matter, causing any solid object he directs his vibration at to explode. So sort of, like, blows the, the doors off the bus. They do a real, like, Keanu and Sandy and Speed, like, sort of slide. off the bus on the door moment. I liked all of that. But everything up until that, like, made me feel like I was watching a show I didn't want to be watching. Yeah. I thought the Clancy

Ed stuff was very strange as well. What I liked for just inside of the Tommy Lisa moment was, you know, Tommy is terrified. Terrified, right? And he's having a panic attack. Yes. And he's shaking. And she's like, he tries to talk to her initially and she kind of turns away. you know, I'm going to take a nap. But then she can feel, she can feel his distress. Take a breath. Vibrating off him almost. Yeah, quite.

And the quickness with which she seeks to comfort him, that was, that warmed me toward her. And then when we, you know, at the end of the prior episode before we get that glimpse into the history and realize that she's the one who sort of planted that seed of like, reinvent yourself, be someone else. You know, that flirt, easy flirtation. and the clear affection between them in the alley, the really, like, charming little, like, you know,

and she's got great, like, yeah, she's got great, you know, careful, like really funny, really cute, the little chuckle, the little smile. No, I like their dynamic. Yeah, I felt quickly, like I understood what they meant to each other. So that was, that was effective, I thought. I agree. Overall, Vision is reluctant to, A, believe that Thomas is Tommy,

and then B, claim any kind of paternal responsibility for him. But the grief, as we mentioned, the grief, love persevering line is the key to, proving definitively to vision that this is Tommy. Yeah. What did you make of that deployment of that line? I didn't like it personally. But I did like that Sparky was mentioned because we're thinking about you always Sparky.

RIP. And I did like that it was like a scene that we didn't see inside of the Wanda Vision show, like that this happened. We haven't seen every single moment that happened with the family inside of Wanda Vision. I just felt it felt a little, like when you were raising sort of this idea of, of recycling lines, hitting what is grief but love persevering so early, just felt I didn't love it. I agree. It felt to me like in feeling a compulsion to play the greatest hits with that line there in a way that, I don't know, maybe we didn't see that scene.

And it's a way to remind us we didn't see that scene. But like, we actually did see the scene where Wanda talked to the kids about Sparky and about how they, we talked, we talked to talk to about this on our pod last week. You're telling me, you're telling me kids only need one scene to be comforted about a dead dog Mallory. No, no, but I'm just, no, that's not my point. But my point is like, for the viewer at home, who's maybe going to be asking these questions and wondering, they actually do have a scene to think about where that didn't happen. But what they need, it gets like, it kind of then you're like, wait, are we supposed to, what are we supposed to think about that? Are we supposed to think that someone is like? I didn't agree with, I don't agree with that.

I just felt like they wanted that. A, they wanted to play the greatest hits and, B, they needed a line that. like Vision and Wanda were alone in a room when he said what is grief but love persevering. So they needed a line that like, you know, could not be like. And then she said, you'll be okay or whatever. It needed to be like prove in one second to Vision that this is somehow connected to Wanda in reality. But I don't know. Then it's like what is the actual answer for how that Tommy has that information? Did Agatha, who witnessed it in the memory tour with Wanda, transfer it to Billy, who transferred it to

No, I think there's just a scene we didn't see in WandaVision. I think there's a lot we didn't see inside of WandaVision. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know, because the concept of Wanda vision is that they're like... Speed running it.

Yeah, the broadcast. But then that we do know that Wanda edits things out of the broadcast. I don't know. It felt, I don't know. Not elegant, I would say. I agree with that. The other greatest that they play is this next section. I'm calling another ship, right?

So vision struggles with, I loved, I loved, loved this part. Yeah. Which is vision struggling with his identity, talking to Ultron, back in the attic, talking to Ultron. The weight of living up to who he has been. Yeah. This part, this is one of my favorite, you know, Tommy's description of the laugh track, and then this sequence are like two of my favorite bits of writing in the episodes. I have his memories, but not his feelings.

I have his face, but not his virtue. all I can feel is the weight of him, his legacy, his worthiness, his name. First of all, Molnir mentioned. Worthiness. Yeah, of course. Shout out Mielnir. Always. I love this idea that it's not just that like visions like, I'm supposed to feel these

things, but I don't feel these things, right? Like, I can't look at Westview because that's not me and I don't love Wanda and I don't own these children because, like, I'm not that vision. Like, that's one thing. But to say who he was is so vaulted. He had the love of this family and he was an Avenger and a hero and he was all of these amazing things. How can I possibly live up to that? I think that concept is beautiful.

Beautifully performed by Paul Bettney, the anguish of that. It's almost like Shakespearean. I just thought this was like a really, really beautiful moment. Then we'll talk about the Chipithesia stuff. But, like, I just thought that part was so good. I really loved this, too. And I thought in general across the two episodes, the moment where Vision himself is saying something about either OG Vision or WandaVision Hex Vision,

were consistently really compelling. You know, the prior scene where he's saying, I wish to understand him and how he existed in the world because we are forever entangled, but he is a stranger to me and therefore I am a stranger to myself. vision he was a hero he lived he loved he died that was real westview was a fantasy connects to the scene we're talking about here obviously but also this idea that like he is insistent the vision that wanda created like a lot of how he's talking about himself is a relationship to the original vision that he was reconstituted from but he talks a lot about the wanda vision

vision. And the idea that that is a separate thing entirely because it was Wanda's memory and not real, right? But there are three distinct visions versus one continuous vision. Yeah, but also it's like, well, what is the difference? And we talked about this a lot on our pod. It's part of why we love that first ship of DC has seen so much because it's like, well, surely you are the real vision because you believe yourself to be.

It's one of the things white vision says to him. But also like the idea that, yes, that vision was the creation of Wanda. just grief, Wanda's love, Wanda's memory, Wanda's impressions, and that is a little bit different, but those, the love, the grief, the memories, the impression, came from her time and experience with original vision. Original vision. So what is, they're all father, brother, son to each other, right? And so that's like, I really, really like thinking about all that in the kind of moments in

the episode where Vision is assessing that before we get to the ship of Theseeas scene. I agree with you. I thought that the Tommy, the writing in the Tommy scene was beautiful. And I think that this sequence was also really lovely and wonderfully written. And I was struck by it too. I have his face, but not his virtue, in part because it's lovely. But in part because virtue is not, I mean, people, reasonable people can disagree about this and debate it. I would say, virtue is not something you're born with.

It's something you forge. And so the idea that he's looking at the original vision and saying he had something that I don't, It's like, but you can get that too. You can get that too. I agree. I like that interpretation a lot. But then also we have to think about the fact that like the second he was born, he could lift Milneur, which is worthiness. But like, you know, like that vision was sprung, fully formed, you know, Athena like out into the world with all of these things.

Yeah. And that like, but then it's like, well, this vision, again, like we talked about earlier, that predates this experience with Wanda. Yeah. So, you know, this character is in, it is so. reasonably rightly, this is what the story's about, focus on that as the distinction. But like, the thing that that original vision came into Stark Tower with in the first place, looking at that reflection in the window and then turning around, making the speech, and picking up Milnear, like, that was there from the word go, and then he acted upon it, right?

So, like, this character can do that too. And then I think, yeah, the legacy point, like the idea that he's drinking. He's mentioning himself in all these memories. He's immersing in them. And that, like, it's not functioning to this point as a bridge, but, like, as a wedge. It's making him feel further removed from that possibility. It's just very striking to watch. I think to your point about sort of what vision, what original vision did with, you know, the worthiness into, like, growing his virtue.

let's say, or the version that is hex vision. This idea of like code constantly updating this idea of change, I think is, and we know, is so core to what we're talking about here when we talk about these AI in general and vision specifically. I like this idea of like, Edith is constantly like, let's do this, let's explore this, let's do this. And then like Jarvis advising like caution and restraint and all these other things. So these like push and pull of like.

Ultron trying to push him out of the nest. And then, like, those who are saying, like, we should hide. Like, you know, what's the movement here? Ultron's saying everyone changes. Human can be 10 different people on a day. The unalogorithmic alacrity with which they wobble. My goodness, learn from them. And then, sorry, just really quickly, what Paul Bettney has said, again, I believe this is in the screen

around interview, but, like, what he has said about what he thinks is core to his mission or the way that he thinks about vision. He says, I would argue that the contract, and I think contract is such a fun, interesting word for him to, like a promise. The contract that the character of Vision has made with his audience is unbreakable, which is he must always be in a state of change.

He is always trying to discover himself. I think this is important because the people that I've noticed that are the fans of Vision are young people who are going through exactly the same thing. They have a differing array, a sort of baffling array of choices that they can make about who, they are. So the fact that Paul Bettney thinks about vision as an Avenger, as a character that

young people are sort of like interested in and preoccupied with. And then he's like, how can they feel themselves reflected back in this space? And he talked about in this screen ran interview and in general, he's talked about like Marvel is this kind of, he called it a boutique experience. He's like, you think of it as this big story churning out machine. He was like, but it's like Kevin Feigie and Lud Esposito. And like, he's like, you know, he's like, you know, he's like, Like, you know, there's just like a few people there and been there from the beginning and the way in which they like have conversations with me about my character rather than just sort of like dictate to me what my character is. So the fact that like he has such a strong idea of this contract that that vision has made with his fans with his audience with the young people who've grown up watching Marvel. And thinking about them, you know, Paul Bettney talks personally a lot about being a father.

So like the way in which he thinks about like how can this be helpful and instructive to young people. I find so beautiful that he brings that level of thoughtfulness and care and father to legions of Marvel fans' attitude towards vision. And we talked about this when we talked about what an android or a robotic character can do inside of a story, which is their curiosity, their bafflement about human behavior, how that can just be such a keen storytelling shortcut to exploring the nature of humanity. from the outside in and stuff like that. And the nature of, you know, in a scary way, sometimes, AI constantly learning and changing and updating and all of that sort of stuff. So all of that being in the mix, as we move into this next the easiest section is something that I find really fascinating. What did you want to say about this theme of change?

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that like what you were saying about jargon. Jarvis and Edith just made me think that, like, that is very true to where those characters started, which is, like, a little bit... There's something kind of core then about that aspect of their identity, right? Like Jarvis as Butler, nurturer, protector. Edith, glasses that Peter's accidentally using to activate drones to shoot a bus on the side of a cliff, like kind of a reckless unpredictability. And so then that's like how do we marry that with this larger assessment of like, well, okay, what is maybe core to your designed intention who you think you have to be, who you were, or what you can be?

And so it's like fun to think about the synths and how they're influencing each other. And again, like, was interesting to hear Jarvis say, we've been trying to help you think about human emotion. what was their respective journey with that, like for any of those AI? Like if any, you know, if anything kind of interesting to, I wonder if that will be explored. But the fact that at the end of episode two, Tommy and Vision are together and Ultron. Now Tommy can't see him, but we can and Vision can, is in the back seat, like, not only like, you know, oh, you know, at the end of episode one, it's a boy, mausletoff, and then at the end, like the kind of father, son, grandpa, pepaw. I have it all, but like saying this thing here

about humans can be 10 different people in a day, that is a Tommy Lisa idea in these two episodes reinvention, you know? So that makes me feel like Ultron is getting it in a way that Vision isn't, but then I still always keep a wall of caution up with Ultron because he's Ultron. So that's a fun place to be with the character. What's his ulterior? What is Ultron's ulterior mother? Yeah, always. And, like, even where Ultron was at the very beginning, you know, when he's born and he's, we're seeing all of the flashes and clips of news footage and things that Tony has said. And obviously, you know, hilarious.

One of my favorite moments, as you know, in Civil War, like Ultron, my fault from Tony. My bad. Great shit. But born out of a desire to protect, right, suit of armor around the world. And then it's like, peace in our time. Well, what does that actually look like and who is the arbiter of that? an Ultron, even from the beginning when he turned into an evil maniac who sought to take a chunk of Sukovia, raise it into the air, and then fire it into the ground as a missile that would

destroy Earth so that humanity could be reborn. Ficked up and bad, he was still thinking about humanity, right, and what it meant to be human. And now he was doing it through the lens of seeing failure and pain and the need for a reset. But he was not. He was not. He was not, an AI who was like, I'm not interested in humanity. He was an AI who was like, I think I can do it better. How present is that for him still? Here we are with this ship of Theseus redux. Yeah. I'm really mixed on this personally. So we really, really enjoy the original ship of Theseus exchange. I think as someone who like really loved Wanda Vision, really loved Agatha, is really protective of Jack Schaefer and her writer's room, any whiff of, like, insult to it makes me bristle.

Sure. So for Ultron to say, it's bullshit, a busy work thought exercise for a college freshman, so lost in the questions, they ignore the story of Brave Thesia, King Thetheas himself. Yeah. That irritated me. I just felt unnecessary. I think you could get to where we get to without, and that's not, it's Ultron insulting, maybe not the

Terry Metallis in his writer's room insulting but like I felt like you didn't need to do that to get where you got because we love Greek mythology corner and we're happy to like think about the expansion upon it and to think about you know be the king you know if your kid's in danger like and this is

obviously also Ultron for his own self-interested reasons goading vision into action right be the goddamn king like all this sort of stuff. Like, obviously, and if you, obviously, if you put words inside of, like, one of your villains, whether or not he's, like, ultimately the villain at the end of this season,

like he is a villainous character. You don't have to own those. But it just felt like a weird unnecessary shot fired at something. Yeah, I bumped on it, too. I think that it can ultimately function as not an indictment of the prior line and show, but as, yeah, Ultron trying to work vision. But still, it gave me the same, like, oh, oh no, it's not nice feeling. I also, once again, I think particularly on the heels of the grief line and just the kind of mounting heft of the number of moments and scenes we had returned to, I started in the scene like a little bit like, oh, no, actually, we're returning to yet another thing,

like how much of the show is going to be that. I will say by the end of this exchange, I liked where it netted out, which, you know, is not just a rehash, actually, but like, hey, let's have a new spin on this. existing idea that makes sense for this version of the character in this moment, be the king for the children, right? Like that, that, once I got over the bullshit line or we got past the bullshit line and I got over like, oh, God, is this just going to be the exact same exchange again? It felt like, okay, when a monster is your son, don't be the ship, be the goddamn king,

made sense as a little propulsive engine for this moment. And I think to save the children each passing year, those same sons and daughters soon wives and husbands, then mothers and fathers restored that ship in celebration of the day. Like, I think that's really great writing. I just think it started from a place that it didn't need to. Yeah. And that's just me being protective of a story I really love.

No, I agree. All right. A noble self-sacrifice. We've already talked about this a bunch about, like, Jarvis. You already mentioned sort of Jarvis's seemingly contradictory or just adaptable, changeable, approaches towards emotion. We'll get to the first of us painting in theory corner That is part of their big like goodbye scene

This is a very much like signaling Jarvis's death Where they have like a big like elder brother, younger brother You're Off to War sort of goodbye moment Yeah But how did this how did this You know and then we have Ultron basically saying like It doesn't have to be the end You know if ever there was a moment for a noble self-sacrifice

This would be it right And then Jarvis kills himself, sacrifices himself. His, you know, he talks about sort of like the energy to keep his code going, going into the, you know, to feed the other characters to, but we literally see sort of like golden characters of his code, that golden orb from age of Ultron, but like go into Friday and Edith and dummy and you. So I'm wondering if there's like echoes of Jarvis are going to like sort of infuse these characters. I don't know. But how did this death work for you? The scale I'm doing, the MCU Disney Plus show scale I'm doing is worst death, most aggravating death,

which I would say is Maria Hill in Secret Invasion, where we were just like, this didn't do at all what you wanted it to do. You thought you were doing something big and you didn't do it. To something like Lillia Calderu in Agatha, which I thought was like one of the best MCU deaths full stop, let alone. in the TV space. So where does this net out for you on that spectrum? You know, we stopped covering secret invasion midway through it, but as we did talk about it at the time, and as you know, my reaction to that death was to pop a bottle of champagne and celebrate

because Maria Hill in the MCU never worked for me, and I was glad they killed her. Sorry! You're not sorry. Sorry. You don't think women should be in positions of power, and that's always been your stance. He's fast.

She's weird. Thanks, Maria. I like Maria Hill fine. I just really hated that death. Like, I just think they really thought they were doing something with her, and it just felt bad, bad story I'm telling. But remember when Secret Invasion gave us platitude? I do.

That was something. I... Remember they made it that the roadie that was there, Tote's death, was actually a scroll? Remember? Very painful. Gaya? Yeah, I was just thinking about that the other day, actually. Yeah.

Amazing. Completely incredible. I don't know. Do you think she's the client? Could be. Could be. I don't know. I think in part because of what you're saying about the little ones and zeros,

some pieces of Jarvis making his way into other aspects of the AI family there. Like the fact that we thought all drama was gone, but here he is. I don't know that we're mourning Jarvis quite the same way because it seems canonically established that it's possible to restore some version of these figures. So I don't know that I'm actively mourning. I think that, you know, what they were able to do that quickly in Agatha with Lillio was like pretty incredible. So certainly this doesn't measure up. I was like, oh, bummer, Jarvis. That's sad.

That was sort of, I wasn't like, I need to cry. 100%. I was a bit more like, I wanted more time with James Darcy personally. It's great. Shout out Cloud Atlas. Shout out Sixth Smith. All right. Uh, all of that. Ultron's now out. You mentioned he peers in this sort of like ghostly form hat on in the back seat. Tommy make sure that he like gets, gets vision. Yeah. Did I give you enough time and space to talk about the Shirling collar bomber jacket that Vision wears when he walks into the hospital here? I just thought it was wonderful. I mean a very... On your like jacket correspondent front, like where... Where is this ranking? Pretty high. I mean, it's tough right now to compete with Joel's wax trucker from Last of Us.

And obviously, the hal jacket has been a big part of my year from lanterns. It's a real dad jacket time. Yeah, this is great. Is this like a kind of nice, you know, a forest like Hunter Green. And then that like chestnut kind of rich shearling collar, just fantastic. And I think, you know, Tommy also. Tommy's, like, color is green, iconically. And Tommy's also wearing sort of like a green, silky kind of jacket.

So they really look like they match here at the end of the episode. Yeah, delightful. Just great. And now they're on the road. That's right. And a shitty station wagon. And I'm excited to see it. We're going to go now to Theory Corner.

Great. We don't have any, like, spoilers to talk about. No, no. But just sort of like, if you don't like theories, now is time to leave. All right. As I mentioned, number one in people's mind, who hired Pallad. in. Yeah.

What's your going theory right now? Um, I think there are a number of possibilities. I mean, one of them is just Ultron, right? And I think the fact that he is like admitting to carrier pigeon email and like you guys aren't even bothering to monitor even the brightest corners of the dark web and all of that, like fessing up to a degree of involvement so that he can say, but that other, this is, the rest of this isn't me, is it would be smart cover for it being him, right? So Ultron is certainly, I think, like, a Vegas, if not a Vegas favorite, at least very high

on the board. Think then, and there's also just the fact that the client, the way that that conversation with the handler and Paladin happens, like it points to some sort of tech expertise, tech prowess, right? So I think whether it's Ultron... Because he hacks via the sword... Yeah. So then there's like, okay, is it Ultron or is it another synth, another AI?

That feels reasonable to consider, given the firewall breaching. Yeah. Because I am a complete lunatic, the sheer volume of Stark industry, you know, logos and the different AI and all that. You think it's Happy Hogan? I was like, could this... Is it any... chance it's just an hammer. Is there any chance is just an hammer?

There's a hammer headline in one of the newspapers. That would be, I don't actually think that's it to be clear, but that would be. You think Sam Rockwell, in an attempt to sort of like boost his Oscar chances of Wild Horse 9 is like also I'm envisioned. Yeah, and he's like, you saw what I could do in like 17 minutes of White Lotus. Just wait. That would be incredible. So Ultron, one possibility, another synth, another possibility is a, if it's another synth, a synth with a connection to Stark or a Stark nemesis or something.

Could it be hammer? I don't know. Sword, as we talked about already, my hope, but also my belief is that this is a misdirect. That the fact that, like, Friday repeatedly is like, sword, sword, sword, like the characters are really on Sword Watch. That Sword is coming up a lot that the sword files, you know, the label on the reel of, like, confidential sword. It's just a lot of sword.

Probably means it's not sword. However, something that we talk, and I think they must know that the sword stuff didn't land. But that actually makes me nervous because, like, we talk about a lot. Wrap your arms around the thing that doesn't work. One of the things the MCU does is like we fucked up, let's try it again. That would be terrible.

That would be awful. I really hope it's not that. Speaking of, Sharon Carter. Could be Sharon Carter. That would also not be good, I think. Kill me. Could be Billy and Agatha? I was thinking Billy.

Right? Yeah. It could be Billy. Because he can't, my witch powers can't do it, so let me hire this sort of, it just feels too dangerous to, I know the prompt is bring, bring vision sort of like hole seems to be the prompt. So it's not like kill vision, but it still seems like very like violent to send pallidina. If you're like looking for your dad. Yes. Though, who, you know, who among us, certainly Billy and Agatha, good intention, a lot of death around them. Could have. Could be. Could be. Rie-Re? I mean, I guess it's possible. Let's wrap our arms around. Heck, is it Echo? Valentina. Could be.

Okay. Could be. Doom. I would be so shocked if this show connects to Doom. I don't think so. I would be shocked. I know that would be shocking. Yeah. Right now I think I'm like Billy Ultron.

Billy and Ultron are I think the top contenders. Justin Amher, just kidding. Number three. It could be a character we don't know. Yeah. It could definitely just be a character we don't know. Well, it could, but like, I think when you use voice, like, distortion like that, doesn't that feel like it's trying to distort a voice we know? Yes, or a voice we're about to encounter.

Right? And so then we don't immediately say, like, oh, is that that character? I don't know. There are some members of the cast who have not entered the story yet. Okay. The Painting of a Man on Fire. Yeah. So this is the very first Androar.

Conocally in the comics, Jim Hammond, invented by Phineas Horton, became a human torch, first seen inside of the MCU in a display in Captain America the First Avenger. So this is just sort of like the proto,

before there was Jarvis and Vision and Ultron or whatever, there was Jim Hammond. Do you think people watching the double premiere or like knew that piece this together were meant to understand that?

Like obviously the language is As the first of us, he remains a cautionary tale. Well, it's just like any sort of comic book thing. Like, I think it's... Yeah. I don't think you have that moment if you're not going to come back to... A lot of lingering cameras. That painting and stuff like that.

So, like, I think it's a seed planted that certain people in the weeds in comic bookery will know what it is. For sure. And then it's our job as podcasters to tell other people what it is. But I don't think anyone watching it is supposed to be like, ah. Yeah, I... Clearly, that's Jim Hammond, you know? Yeah, because, again, I mean, it's the camera's... kind of lingering when they're taught when vision and ultron are talking about the painting and then

we really stay on it as we leave that scene so they want us to be thinking about it but i was like how many people are going to be watching this at home just like wait that like kind of looks like but it who that's obviously not a thing that we like know about yet this character so like who is just feeling confused rather than like oh satisfying easter egg but i don't know i the thing that i really was thinking about watching that was just that it reminded me so this was mostly about color choice and the kind of look at the paint. It reminded me so much of Battlestar and specifically the painting that Adama keeps in his office of the first Silemon War. Like it just now they're like a lot more.

That's not a solitary figure. But it's a very like yellow, brown kind of painting. And that felt like, I don't know. That felt intentional to me that they were doing something that looked a little bit similar to that. and that's like the idea of carrying history with you, you know? I'm looking at it. Yeah. And part of the reason that I thought of that right away was because I always love the way that that painting is there.

It's so present when you're watching Battlestar. And at one point, Adam and I got a print of it. But it was you just, like, we ended up taking it down because you literally just can't see it because it's so dark. So it looks cool on the show and not at home. But yeah, it's just very interesting. Interesting. Interesting to see where that goes. Yeah.

No one, like, if they do a whole Jim Hammond backstory or something like that, like, no one's been announced as like in the cast that, you know, you're like, that would be Jim Hammond or something like that. So I don't know. Right. The Butcherbird killer. Multiple. Talk about breadcrumbs. Multiple, multiple things. Tech giant murdered, butcher bird wings carved beneath the victim is a headline that Vision's reading. Ultron says, you know, I have really become a true crime junkie.

Madness and Primal Compulsions are terrific time-wasters, and then on the news we hear about ornithological experts have identified the markings as those belonging to the butcher bird. The killer is still in the loose. So I'm not an ornithological expert, so I had to look up what the butcher bird was. Same. Yeah. A carnivorous songbird known for its habit of impaling prey on thorns, sharp branches, or barbed wire. And then even at the very end when Jarvis is starting to, like, delete what he can before the sacrifice.

deleting what he can to try to protect the core and Ultron's TVs are flicker. Yeah, you can hear it. Yeah, one more Butcherbird. Yeah, exactly. I was wondering, I don't know that this is the case, but I was wondering if it could possibly be your reference to Butcher and Blackbird,

the Bryn Weaver novel about serial killers. I don't know if it is, but I was just like, Butcher and Butcher Bird, Butcher and Blackbird. Really fun, fucked up book, you know. Anyway. Interesting. I'm sure this will come back into play. I'm sure this is like a lock.

Multiple. mentions. A mystery that Ultron is tracking, that, you know, Vision is reading about. So something to keep another headline, missing Adamantium. Hunt for Stolen Adamantium continues. Do we think this is just Paladin's bullets or is there something else that the Adamantium could be up to? Ultron builds his body from Adamantium in the comics. Right. You know, is this something that like, Ultron is sending carrier pigeons out to, like, steal Adamantium in the world to build himself a body external to vision, something like that. I mean, you know,

but that would be a bit of a signature move kind of thing for him after his vibranium amassing in age of Ultron. Yeah, that's a good question. Is this just the adamantium rounds that Paladin has already used to shoot vision that worked. Worked. Like, damaged him supremely. And he only had like badly injured is I think what, yeah.

I hope he goes and gathers up their shelves and reforms new bullets. I know. Like, oh, what's the plan? You were sure that was going to be enough? What was the plan? Unbelievable. Yeah.

So I guess my instinct would be that seeing that the adamantium rounds that Friday helps me identify us for us, that Paladin used here, did damage vision, primes us for the fact that there's more kind of anti-vibranium, you know, strong enough to pierce the shell material out there that Paladin or someone else could use. But maybe it's something else. I mean, we can mock Paladin. and I will for six bullets, what was your plan? But the EMP cage, the adamantium bullets, the being able to like, fire a bullet into his brain, hack into the system to deliver a message. Like, this dude's impressive.

Oh, yeah. And when we get the download about like what his, what he's a part of the history, it's like not just he's strained in every weapon, he's trained in every yard. It's like he's got a brain. Not just your shagger with a gun, right? Exactly. Mad Report mentioned, as we as we wanted to before. Just roller coaster up. Oh, fun.

Match and for mention. Oh, my God. Is Sharon Carter going to be? The power broker going to be in this story. Or are we going to see Baron Zimo dance again? Well, that would be wonderful. One can only dream. That would be wonderful.

Lisa. Yeah. Front or foe. Friend. I, that line. Lisa. Less likely than Justin Hammer. Okay.

Probably more likely than Justin Hammer. I think friend because it would be such a bummer. But this reminds me a little bit. I'm not going to spoil lanterns for people who haven't watched it in a vision quest episode and are like, why did I just catch this very recent spoiler? But it would remind me a little bit of something we discussed there of like, well, what would the lesson in a story about like opening yourself up to love be if that was the outcome? Oh my God. Don't fall in love. You'll regret it.

Just two, a couple more sections go. Stock the fridge with Easter eggs. This is something we do on MCU shows. is like instead of sort of exhausting our way through the whole thing, we just talk about some of our favorite Easter eggs. Anything you want to mention from this list or a separate list that you had that you want to mention? It's the first one on your list here, but the, because we talked about Hatwatch, you know, and of course Apple War is always present on House of Our,

when we got to glimpse that painting. I don't know. Anytime we see a hat now, a top hat, a fedora, anything at all, I think we have to be like. So what you're referencing is Renee McGree, the son of man, which is, A famous, iconic image of a man with a bowler and over his face is a green apple. A delicious looking green apple. Vision has reformed this thing. No face at all.

Hat embody no face. And then is it an apple or an orange? Is it a red apple or is it an orange? It's either a red apple or an orange. Yeah. But it's not a green apple. That's for sure. Yeah.

Pomeranet. So yeah. That's the update. So either it's a score one point for red apple, I guess, if Vision decided to replace the green apple with red apple. Erase the humanity from it. Red apple, apple of knowledge, all the idyllic imagery that's in this episode, etc. And also that Tommy line, like, you know, face red, like a demon, purple bruise, like all of that. Yeah, the Bosch, for the Bosch heads out there, there's a lot of Garden of Eden imagery in there. Angel Demon, temptation, formation of man, all that sort of stuff.

Yeah. All the groceries we could go through, I don't, I think it's fun. For me, it's, and I don't know if this is real, but I really like it. When Clancy, AK Dollar said, AK Ben Crompton says, do you honestly believe that we're heading for young offenders? I choose to believe that's a young avengers joke. Great stuff, yeah. That's my choice. Really good.

That's my decision. Really, really good. Banner and Hawke I mentioned. Vision's reading Camus La Tronje, after he says he's a stranger to himself. And, like, if you look at the stranger, there's a lot of thematic. Like, we got a great email from a listener that's like a very, very long, in-depth, sort of like what the themes of the stranger have to do with the show and stuff like that. God, I loved that book when I read it for the first time.

Loved. Sanford and Sun, Sesame Chicken Calzone. He was a good guy, which is, you know, something Alternate has already said about Jarvis, et cetera, et cetera. Anything else you want to mention from the Easter egg section. I think so. I mean, it's just nice to have the TV screens back, I guess, so that we can pour over. Yeah. So a lot of Getty images, honestly, on those screens. A lot of royalty-free sort of thing.

Needle drops. This is not necessarily a thing we normally do, but there's a couple really interesting ones inside of these episodes. So we get two songs literally about ships, and I'm wondering if we'll get one in every episode. I think that would be kind of fun. Both of them are from the 70s. We get John DeVner There's Calypso from 1975. Yeah. Which starts with to sail on a dream on a crystal clear ocean to ride on the crest of a wild raging storm. This is the song that's playing at St. Mavens as Vision comes into the trap and then, you know, kills a bunch of people. And then Roger Whitaker is the last farewell from 1971.

There's a ship lies rigged and ready in the harbor tomorrow for Old England. She sails. This is playing in the pub right before Fiona gets got. We mourn. I don't know. I just really like these 1970s. 70 sort of like dad rocky kind of fun hokey, a little like Guardian of the Galaxy kind of we're going to reinvigorate certain like old dusty classics inside of this context.

I thought those were both really great. Like I love a musical accompaniment. I love a needle drop. But they added a certain energy, an effective one to the scene. So I quite liked those. As I mentioned, Henry Mancini's Mr. Lucky plays when Vision walks into. the house. Connie Francis is everybody, somebody's fool is playing also in the pub. And then Chopin, Nocturne No. 2 and E. Flat is playing in the attic when we meet, when we see Ultron.

So very like, of course, like we're going to drop some Chopin. Like, you know what I mean? That's just very like, I've got a Hironovs Bosch up here. I'm listening to Chopin. I'm like watching all the TV shows. I'm just soaking up all the art that the humans have to offer. Can't wait to go to the loo. Yeah. What a guy on Ultron is. Yeah.

We're watching the needle drops. If anyone has any like further insight into the needle drops, I would love to hear Popus and Dragas at Gmail.com. But I just thought,

I thought those first two tracks especially were really fun. And I think it would be fun to get a ship-themed song in every episode. But I don't know how long they can sustain that. And then at last,

Weekwatch TM with me. I'm excited. Joanna Robinson TM. Do you wear weeks? I mean, Hatwatch. mostly beard watch. Mostly this just like an incredible beard on on James Bader.

It's wonderful. I really love it. I said Mad Men in the Attic because Mad Woman in the Attic is obviously sort of like this famous text on Bertha from Jane Eyre. But like just his whole entire look is very like Madman, the professor of the madman sort of imagery. And I just like, I'm really. excited for this character's on. I love what he's wearing. He's got like sort of a scarf tied as like a tie and it's just like it's really cool. There's some other wigs at play like I mean shout out the height on Jarvis's hair. I don't think that was a wig but I just want to shout

out the like teasing effect to get this like little some good use of product you know. Friday's definitely a wig. It's definitely a wig. But yeah, how can you tell? You just can't see the skin in their part. Oh, interesting. That's a that's a huge tell. If you look at them, and it's like the old boram hair. There's no scalp. Yeah. Yeah. There's no scalp there. It hasn't been plucked. Uh, that's a, that's a tell. Yeah. You're the best. But they look great. No, no, like, bad wigs yet. I'll let you know if I see one. And also just no wig at all for for our guy vision in human form, right? That's just his hair? I think so. Which is great. Paul Bettney is 55. Which is incredible. Incredible. Incredible. It's a great haircut. And as you noted,

across the journey of Wanda Vision, there had to be a hair journey. Right. And so we had a lot of wigs there. We did. We don't hear. I don't think so. Which is nice. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I have no idea. But. If it is, it's very, very good. Yeah. The best that money could possibly buy. Okay. That is it.

Yeah. For Vision Quest, episodes one and two, excited to cover three and four. Same. So we'll be back for that. Yes. Mallory Rubin, anything else you want to say before we go? Fun show to talk about. Yeah. Fun show to watch, fun show to think about, fun show to talk about.

I'm really excited to watch the next. Now we've sort of like, the gang's all here. We're on the road. Yeah. Who's the butcher bird killer? You know, like, who's the client? All that, all these questions to the jacists. What hat will Tron wear next? When will Mephisto show up? Is he dating the power broker? Yeah. Do you think we'll get a standalone episode that's just about Mephisto and the power broker? Yeah. Yeah. I do. That's what we deserve. Oh my gosh. Thank you.

to the AI family that lives inside of our heads. Jacob Cornett, Scott Lee, Carl Sheriboga, Arjuna and Coppell, Jomea at Dinneron. Y'all are the best. See you soon. Bye.