House of R - ‘Wicked: For Good’ Deep Dive

Episode Date: November 22, 2025

Mal and Jo hit the yellow brick road and head back to Oz for ‘Wicked: For Good.’ They dive deep into the highly anticipated sequel, breaking down everything from the songs and relationships in the movie to their questions and theories about how a scarecrow has sex. (00:00) Intro (9:44) Opening Snapshot (33:19) Deep Dive Prepare for one last adventure at Target. Visit target.com/StrangerThings Hosts: Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Social: Jomi Adeniran Additional Production Support: Arjuna Ramgopowell and John Richter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings and welcome to House of Arc, a ringerverse podcast on the Ringer podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, joining me today, wrapped in a chunky knit sweater robe in her favorite treehouse hideaway. It's Joanna Robinson. I texted you two things to look out for. Did I not during your viewing of it? And one of them was that chunky sweater, which I have a lot to say about. I have so much to say about it. I can't wait to hear it all. We are here today, of course. to dive into Wicked, colon, for good, aka Wicked Part 2, we will be talking about scarecrow wigs, chunky knit sweaters, musical numbers, themes.

Insultant men. All of it right after this. This episode of House of R is presented by Target. Have you heard? Stranger Things is back at Target. And it's time to gear up for the upside down. Head back to the 80s with awesome exclusives like the unreal Demogorgon popcorn bucket, the fog over Hawkins candle that reveals secret messages, and the Demogorgon bundle box that's full of cool surprises.

New items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target. Okay, Joe, before we dive into Wicked for Good, a few quick programming. reminders, slightly different schedule next week, both in terms of volume and published day, because it is a holiday week. So we will have one pod next week. But it's Stranger Things Season 5 time. And so we will have a pod next week. We will be starting our season five coverage. Our plan and our intention is to do a couple pods on season 5, volume 1. So you will be getting the part 1 on volume 1 of season 5. Netflix isn't the only one who can milk this.

Our hope and our plan is to put that up on Wednesday night. So after you watch the SIFA episode drop for the first volume of Stranger Things, after you watch the first two episodes, come listen to the pod. And then coming out of the holiday weekend, we will be back top of the following week to pod about episodes three and four. We are so excited to dive into season five together, catch up on our seasons one through four revisited pods, if you haven't yet. And then in the back half of the post-holiday week, we will be, continuing the best of the century so far series we will be potting about as mentioned a couple times recently best fights fight fight battles duels verbal spats arguments emotionally devastating soul-rending

sequences versus broomsticks you know what i mean i mean i mean it's say we have a new contender it can make the list it can make the list it's entirely possible it can make the list so keep the keep the nominations coming. The bad babies have been emailing. Suggestions already. Keep them coming. The inbox is open, Hobbits and Dragons at Gmail.com.

You guys have been sending some really good ones. Yeah, send all of those. And also, I would say, your Stranger Things theories. I would love, like, for part two of volume one, because we're going to have this, like, fun space of time

between Thanksgiving and Christmas when we get to speculate about what's going to happen the back half of Stranger Things. So I want those Stranger Things theories from everyone. Yes. a fun space of time where we will not be potting over holidays, but it's a finite contained space

of time where we will not be potting over holidays. So let's fill it with, let's fill it with theories. I love it. I love it. Great idea. Joanna, we already mentioned how people can email us. How can everybody follow along? So glad you asked. Listen, why don't you just subscribe to the podcast? I think that's a really good idea. Subscribe to our podcast, to the ringerverse, to every single ringer podcast if you want to. Who's to say? whatever podcatcher you choose. Follow us on social, whichever social media platform you choose. That is entirely your choice. And we will be there with some social assets for you. You can hear Chris Ryan talk about the C and how dope it is on our Instagram, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, that's all true. You can watch the pods. That's the thing I forgot to talk about.

Listen, our beautiful shining faces are here to talk to you about Wiccan. We might even sing. We already sang before we started recording. We might sing again. It might happen. Mallory loves to sing Nemiconamonamon. That's her favorite song. So we might sing. So you can watch us on YouTube. You can watch us on Spotify app. You can watch us on Samsung TV, et cetera, et cetera.

So those are all the things that I would suggest. You can email us, right? I said everything. Did I do it? You did it. Right. You crushed it. Look at me.

Okay. Last programming reminder. It's the spoiler warning. It's the friendly neighborhood spoiler warning. I would say it's like a fairly ample one today. because as will come up in our discussion. Chunky, chunky as an inexplicably thick sweater you put on to seduce someone in your tree house, you know?

I have no notes on the sweater. Actually, I have one note on the sweater, which we'll get to because we have an entire fit watch section coming. It's not the same as my note, but it's a good note. We have different notes. The spoiler warning today, obviously we're going through everything that happens in Wicked for Good, the new film.

is on the table stay. Anything that happened in that movie could come up today. This is a spoilerful podcast. There is not a pre-spoiler portion of the podcast. Spoilers from the jump. You've been mourned. Also, of course, we will be incorporating events from the first wicked film, which came out this time last year. But that's not all, folks. If it happened in the fabled, beloved, cherished musical could come up today. If it happened in the novel that inspired the musical, could come up today if it happened in the original novel. The Gregory McGuire books. Any of the Gregor...

I'm just not... I don't need to talk about all the Gregory McGuire-Oz books. There are many. I might reference... If we're going to talk about, like, what's the future? Does this movie leave room for a sequel or whatever? Could come up today. We can talk about that at the end, maybe.

Okay. L. Frank Baum's original Wizard of Oz novel could come up today. Certainly the... One of the most important movies in the history of cinema. The Wizard of Oz have you out of it, Lads? 1939 film could come up today. As I am certain I mentioned on our previous

wicked coverage, a movie I used to watch over and over and over again while dressed as Doriske. I was going to say, I remember my main memory of that is learning that you put on the gingham. I did. I laughed so hard when we saw the gingham. This was my thought process. We see Dorothy's spoilers.

We already issued the spoiler warning. You're safe. The spoiler warning has been issued. You're good. I don't know if you know this, but Dorothy's House lands after a tornado. in Oz. And we see the gingham curtains. Yeah. So,

it was like, who the fuck wears the dress the same as their curtains and then I remember the sound of music? And I was like, the Von Trapp family singers do. So I guess if it's good

for the Von Trapp family, it's good for the Gale family. So, yeah. Anteem is not letting those bolts and gingham go to waste. Yeah. That role of fabric it's going towards,

I think we probably have like a tablecloth. Oh, yeah. Probably some fabric napkins. Mexican napkins. Absolutely. Absolutely. Did you spot any chunky knit, cable knit, sweater drapery and Elphibus Treehouse? No, it was just a unique one-of-a-kind concoction.

I want that sweater. No, I should say, in fact, she has, like, essentially a yarn wall, and yet it's not, there's no yarn on that yarn wall. It's just propaganda and, like, big, big, big battlements. Big battle plans like save the animals. Just in case you forgot. Save the animals. We love a to-do list. To do.

Yeah. We love a calendar reminder here at the House of Our. We do. We can't remember anything unless someone slacks us and puts it on our calendar. That's true. We're track to the critique now. What was it going to do today? Oh, yes.

To the animals. Right, right, right. It's my entire raison d'etra. Of course, of course. That's sweet little flying. lemur. He needs you. And if you double booked, he's fucked. I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm a pod. I can't save you. One note my sister had. And I didn't, I saw this movie twice, once with my sister at one set at Lucasfilm. You saw it twice as well.

At Lucasfilm, we was introduced by the VFX supervisor. So he would look very tired. And he was like, there were so many animals. And please clap for the girl in the bubble, because that was very hard. Oh, my. So that was that was that experience. when my sister was an entirely different experience, but she was just like, do you think one of the animal designers was Australian? She was like, there was a koala, a kangaroo, a wallaby. I was like, wow, I didn't.

It's a great question. I didn't clock them all, but, you know, my sister was on the beat. So, yeah. Investigative journalist, Morgan Robinson. Morgan. I love it. Okay. Programming reminders dispensed, spoiler warning issued.

A keen geographic. insight from a family member shared. Believe that takes us to the opening snapshot. I think that's check, check, check. Save the Animals do a podcast. This episode is brought to by Paramount Plus. Beth and Rip are back in a new series, Dunton Ranch. Kelly Riley and Cole has a return,

and this time they're taking on Texas. As Beth and Rip build a future together, peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dunton Ranch starring Colehauser Kelly Riley, Annette Benning, and Ed Harris, now streaming on Paramount Plus. I wonder if everybody listening at home thinks we've just been hitting the elixir, you know, down to the last few pods before the holiday break. It's not a bad idea.

You might see me, you know, on the Stranger Things pod. Those bottles were the exact kind of thing that I love to have little, like, colorful little pretty bottles. Yeah. Also a green liquor, real, you know, battle star, Ambrosia vibes. Oh, I was thinking the green fairy absent Milan Rouge. Also valid. Musicals and genre together in one movie? Let's do it.

Let's go. Let's do it. Okay, quick facts for Wicked, colon, for good. This is, of course, the sequel to the smash hit, Wicked, Wicked Part 1. Like the first film, this movie is directed by John M. Chu, screenplay by Winnie Holsman and Dana Fox. And it is based on the Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holesman musical, Cherished Adored. And as mentioned, Gregory McGuire's 95 novel, Wicked. The runtime of this movie is 137 minutes.

And unforgivable, 137 minutes. Shorter than the first movie. Un-forgivable. On the total runtime. And it is girthy. It is... It's chumky as an ill-advised sweater. I suspect the length of these films will be coming up today in our discussion more than once.

Let's... You know, we often when we do our movie pods, Joe, check in on a Sunday, a Monday, sometimes even a Tuesday. For various reasons. recording this on a Friday morning. We have both had the pleasure of seeing the movie twice, but what we don't have yet is the full context that we typically have when we sit down to potter in a movie of how it did on its opening weekend. What we do have are some early indicators, some early responses, and some projections. So very quickly here, let's hit some of this.

The budget for this movie was $150 million. The opening weekend projections, which could radically change over the next couple days. So these are just kind of like early. And the Ranges are pretty big, but I will say all on the, wow, that's a lot of money side. Sure. Sure is, yeah. You, depending on where you're reading or what you're looking at, you can see anything on the projection front right now from $125 million for opening weekend to $200 million. I would say that $150 to $1.80 seems to be like the most commonly projected range, but there's a chance this movie makes $200 million on opening weekend. Reportedly, the movie has already made from the Monday through Thursday previews.

this is per deadline, 30.8 million already. This is a lot of money. The first film, just as a reminder, made a fuckload of money as well. It made $758,474 million, which was a record for a Broadway adaptation, for a stage-to-screen film adaptation. So it seems like this movie is going to perform

at the box office, barring something astonishing. Perhaps there is a week one to week two dip coming? That's, yeah. Is that what you're anticipating? Well, I don't know. This is a big question I have. It was always going to be huge in opening because people had such a fun time last year going to Wicked around the holiday, bring the kids, etc., etc., go repeatedly. Go to a sing-along version, like blah, blah, blah.

So my question is, will this have the same legs on it that the first one did because we're going to talk about the tonal differences? We're going to talk about all of that sort of stuff. Like, is it, you know, are you like, come on, kids, let's go see them. drop a house on someone. Like, is that the vibe this year? So I have questions about repeat viewings. But it is undoubtedly going to make a ton of money and it is undoubtedly going to just have a huge opening weekend.

Like, no question. But I, like, I just, I still don't know. Like, you went to a general population screening. I did. Last night. I went to, the second screening I went to was still technically, like, a quote-and-compress screening, but it was, like, a mixed. And there were a bunch of, like, kids there and people in cosplay.

And I'm sort of hoping to. to get my understanding of what Pete, you know, because I know what the critics think. And I was curious, like, what do the people think? And I could not get a beat on it from that particular. I think it's because before it started, one of the guys who runs the SS Greetings went up and he was like, this is not a sing-along.

Do not sing. So I think that might have put like a damper on like people's like Chois de Veeve watching this movie. But I couldn't get a bead on if it's going to be the same. difference that I saw when I saw wicked with the press and then with like a general audience. Do you intend to go a third time to find out? I'm curious. Yeah.

Do some boots on the ground reporting. Do some field research? I might. I'll share my anecdotal evidence. Yeah, please. From my one experience, seeing it with the gen pop. So we had our, so the Ring of Verse crew, L.A. Division. L.A. Bureau.

I missed you. Miss you as always. also it was just pouring buckets of rain and everyone was soaked and miserable and as you know because I texted I almost left the screening because I was in such a bad mood and we had front row seats and then Steve Alman came to the rescue

and found us better seats and I was so grateful I watched that group chat from afar like a meme of like someone outside a window from what I understand LA does not work when it rains seems to be okay that is correct so everyone was working through that

But so we went to the media screening on Monday. This was my first time. I've lived in Los Angeles for 12 years now. This was my first time seeing a movie at Universal City Walk ever. I have made it 12 years in L.A. without having that experience. It was a unique one to do that in the downpour, in the deluge. There were a lot of people dressed up for that screening. And people who were clearly very hyped to be there.

And that crowd experience was, I would say, electric. which had a, I mean, in part because when you have the privilege of watching a movie with Van, it's just a unique experience always, and it's the best. It's just like so memorable and wonderful. But everybody in the theater was so engaged. Chearing,

whooping, sounds that indicated some sort of emotional response, it was like a really gripped audience. And that definitely had a bearing on how I felt about seeing it for the first time. When Fierro ditches Glinda on their way,

wedding day for Alpahua. Did Van repeat his performance from Doom Part 2? Nothing can match the Doom Part 2, oh shit, obviously. As I said to Sean on a call the other day and have said to both you and Arjuna before, if at some point in our best of the century so far podcast series, we decide to do best movie theater moments of the century so far with regrets to Avengers End Game, then to Captain America who wielded Milnear. I will be picking seeing Dune Part 2 with fan at the moment when he stood up and chow to no shit because nothing will ever match it. So that that crowd was great, even though that was the screening. I went to just the movies last night here in L.A.

And it was full. And as I looked around for, you know, IMAX, of course, I had waited too long. That's on me. IMAX gone. Dolby, gone. Oh, yeah. Of course. Every huge crowd.

Every theater was full. The theater I went to was full. I would describe the crowd as incredibly muted, even though they were there night one prime time, incredibly muted. Isn't that interesting? Yes, yeah, there were a couple people around me who were like openly weeping and sobbing and seemed very moved by it.

But moments that in the first screening I went to drew like real laughter or some sort of spark of response, silence. Silence. So I was really surprised by that. I will say, though, and we can get into the early critic and fan response here. That doesn't necessarily seem like an indicator of the early fan response, which, you know, our old friend, the tomato meter and the popcorn meter, we never put any stock in it at all, and yet we mention it.

Every time. Much to you. This movie is checking in currently at 70% among critics, 97% among the audience. So the early audience response is very positive. Critics, incredibly divisive film among the critics. We'll talk about that more in a second. The first film, as a point of comparison, 88% among the critics on Rotten Tomatoes, 95% among the audience. That was just more positively reviewed. That's undeniable, I think. Metacritic, 60-90. I think we're going to see the audience score go down, not like dramatically, but I think we're

going to see it go down a bit. Because to your point, the people who saw in these first few days are the people who are just like, the people have already seen Wicked and it opened last night are like, you know, the diehards, the rider dies. Though you would expect, you know, like, you know,

Rappell Juliet, like there are people who love the stage show who like don't like the movies at all. So, you know, there's that to consider. But yeah, it's interesting to me. I, and I was on record with this, I know when we talked about the first wicked movie.

This is, this is committed to the public record. Yeah. That act two I have always had questions about because it's like shorter and darker and all of the good songs are in Act 1. Right. And so barring for good, which I, you know, they know is so good they made it the title of the movie. Banger! And, you know, there are songs I like, like as long as your mind is a song that I like, there are songs that I like in Act 2.

But undoubtedly, the absolute showstoppers are in Act 1. So I was like, what the fuck are they going to do on the music front in part two? What are they going to do with how dark? There's a body count. Like, what are they going to do for, like, all the kids who loved going to Wicked Part 1 last year? You know, like, bring the kiddos to Wicked for good. Or maybe I'm just underestimating what kids can tolerate or whatever. But, like, I was kind of concerned trolling when I saw with my sister and it over.

I was like, so kids are not going to like that, right? She's like, I don't know. And I was like, Morgan, you're the one who always talks about how kid movies are so scary. And she's like, she's like, and so I think her kids are too old. She's no longer as concerned. But like, I don't know. What did you think of like the, this is me getting maybe ahead of myself over my skis? But like, comparing the tone of this movie, they tried to keep it lighter.

They added a bunch of animal stuff. They added two songs that I frankly don't think work, but we'll talk about that. Like, you know, like all this sort of stuff to try to lighten and lengthen. Lengthen it way too long. Like they were, I understand patting it out because act two is shorter. but I was like, you patted it out to that long? Like, what are you doing? So there's choices they made that work, choices they made that didn't.

Ariana and Cynthia are just, like, wonderful no matter what. But, like, this was just always going to be a tougher cell, I think, in general, especially like divorced, even though it's only been a year, divorced from, like, if you watch this on the stage, you're, like, buzzing from defying gravity and popular or something like that. And then just, like, smooth you through act two, which is short and dark. But, like, you're like, I get it as a piece. But to isolate alone, again, this is just always something I've been like a little worried about. Yeah, yeah.

If anyone is like, I can't find that commentary. Where is it? You can look for the podcast headline about Gladiator, too. Oh. Because we're like, Barmanheimer. Totally normal. Part two. Gladiatoria too and Wicked in the same pod.

Glickin. Let's go. Yeah. Oh, God. That was actually really fun. Ross. Remember Gladiator Part two. I was just curious.

I do. I was actually just thinking back to that very recently and really lamenting that that movie wasn't better. Sad. You know, it's interesting because Sean, everybody should treat themselves to this week's big picture. I will not attempt to sum up his digs. I will just say he was not a fan of this movie. It will surprise no one to hear. He hated the first one.

He was never going to like this one, you know? Right. Which is actually not the same thing as the group of people who really loved the first one and are let down by this or don't. I think it measures up to that. I think there's also a contingent of people, though, who are like, that first one was, like, not for me and it was a candy-coded, like, giddy fest that I didn't relate to. This is not me saying that.

And they find this to be much more to their liking. So I think what has struck me so far in, this is a very, like, surface level, like, kind of, you know, you're scanning the headlines, you're getting a feel for it in the early days. I don't have, like, a spreadsheet, Ben Lindberg-esque tracker or spider chart to like actually bear this out. But it feels to me like that 70%, and in general the temperature around the movie,

is much less a bunch of reviews from people who are like, this is okay. It's much more like there are people who think that this movie is dreadful. And then there are people who are like, this was actually, this was kind of what a, yeah, I'm viving with this now, the darker tone, the more serious story. Is it like too heavy or scary for young kids question? So that's why I mentioned Sean, actually. He said that his daughter, who is four years old, that this is like instantly one viewing her favorite movie ever made.

The second one? Yes. Great. You know, and so I mean, does one child indicate how children everywhere will respond to it? No, but I thought that was interesting. She's a child of the Criterion Collection, so she's like a very special child. But, you know, how many Eggers movies has she already watched? I have kids.

So it's like really stupid of me to concern troll over like children since I don't like I'm not constantly monitoring like what children can handle or whatever. I just also think it's like not nearly as good of a movie as the first movie. And I thought, and I was only mixed positive on the first movie. Right. But I think this is not nearly as good for a number of reasons. But Ariana and Cynthia are just like transcendent. Yeah.

Yeah. Here's the thing. It's like I'm getting ahead of everything. No, no, no, no. But let's just get into the opening snapshot take. Yeah, tell us how you felt about the movie. I think that a lot of baffling choices were made. But I'm excited to have another monoculture moment.

I'm excited for all the lead-up. I'm excited to listen to Ariot on Amy Poller's podcast. I'm excited. I liked the sort of live show that they did that they aired on NBC and Peacock, like, last week, or two weeks ago, whenever that was. I, it was fun to go to, like, both of the screenings that I went to. It was fun to see everyone in their cosplay. Like, there's, like, an event aspect around Wicked that has less to do with the quality

of the movie and more to do with just, like, everyone watched the same thing. They all can have opinions on it. This is just, like, my constant beating the drum for the monoculture. Like, I just like when we're all talking about the same thing together. And so, and we're headed into stranger things. And, like, that's exciting, too. So, like, that independent of the movie is its own thing that I, like, have some fondness for. But I also liked at the end of both of my screenings, both with my friend Amy, who went to see

it with me the first time of my sister, is we just sort of both times sunk low in our seats and just giggled over the things that we thought were like, that was the best look they came up with for Fierro, really? Like, you know, we, like, we were giggling over the things that we thought they got, like, quite wrong. So I don't think, I think even less than. wicked, this is going to be a movie that I'll, like, want to revisit on my own. But as, like, a thing for us to talk about for the rest of the year, I'm glad it exists. Does that make sense at

all? Yeah, of course. Absolutely. I, here, let me take you through a quick daily, clock tick. I'll just get one clock tick here to take you through my daily experience with consuming and receiving and then, like, thinking about this movie because it's been, it's been, there has been daily variants for me in a way, in a way that is, I found interesting. Yeah. Saw the movie Monday night. The movie ended. Turned to Steve Allman on my left, turned to my husband on the right, Van and Jomey were next to Adam. First thing I said to all of them was, that was great. Not like good or okay. Like my real time reaction was like, I really had fun watching it, even though in real time there were things that were really gnawing at me, which put a pin in that for a second.

Still, I think in part because the crowd, as mentioned, was so swept up in the movie. It was, to your point about the monoculture, it gave me that feeling that, and I say this, owning the fact that I'm a real, like, you were going to have to drag me out of my house. Yeah. Like against my will, basically. I just really prefer to be home. But, like, when I am actually out in the world, communing with my fellow bam, and we're all like, boy, it's fun to go to the movies.

That's just such a cool, great feeling. And Monday gave me that jolt. Do you know what's an even higher data point of that for me? Adam went with you? He did. Yeah. He did. I know.

He, because he watched the first one for the first time a few weeks ago when my mom and stepdad were in town. And he really, really liked it. So he was like, I often ask him if he wants to come to screenings and he's like, yeah. And he, as you know, is a movie upset. He's like a DVD collector, but he's like, I'll watch it at home or like if you go again for pod prep a few days after you see the screening. I'll go with you then. Hard to drag him out on a Monday night typically, but he was like, yeah, I'll go.

And so it was just like that feeling in the room. Out in the lobby saw Rosie and Joelle from X-ray vision. They're like, what you think? I'm like, that was great. Like that was just, I texted Sean and Juliet and I was like, wicked slapped. I will keep their response as private, but they did not agree. I mostly said that because I was like very excited to, to, I just knew that Sean, that there was no question that he would find it abhorrent. And so I was like, I can't wait to get into it on text with Sean. And he did not disappoint me. Juliet Littman very rarely DMs me about anything. And when she saw that I saw Wicked, she's like, let me just get my takes off for you. Yeah. She was going through it. Everyone can hear Juliet's a full take on the film on Big Pick. She joined Sean and Amanda to talk about it this week. She is a. huge, huge. The musical is like a huge part of her life and she was very disappointed by this movie. So while saying to folks, that was great. I did also say, but I have some notes. They were, they primarily fell into a couple buckets. Pacing, I thought was a real problem in the movie. Even in real time when I was swept up, right? But I just thought you've already mentioned this and I really agree. This is not a controversial opinion or a unique take. Ariana and Cynthia were

breathtaking to me. I just thought, I mean, I thought obviously, like, you know, Cynthia in the first movie was astonishing. And I was like, whoa, Ariana Grande is really like doing something pretty notable and cool here. Yeah. This movie, which is very much Glinda's movie. It is. I left the theater and I was like, is Arianna Grande going to win an Oscar?

Like, I just couldn't. I just thought she was amazing. That would not currently be my vote for best supporting actress, just to be clearly very much in one battle hive, but it seems like it could happen. Plenty of people are saying it. Yeah, yeah. But they were saying it last year, too. Yes.

Well, so we'll say, but we're going to talk a little bit more, actually, about Oscars at the end of the pot today. Okay, so that's where I was Monday night. Then the other big thing I had, which we're going to talk about as we get into our deep dive, I think that the movie has a lot of really beautiful, poignant, thematic explorations, specifically about friendship, female friendship, and the way that we can positively impact each other. I think that stuff in the movie is, like, lovely. I have a lot of notes on the execution of the messaging at the end of the film that I'm like very eager to get your takes on and talk to you about today. And that like I don't I don't actually feel like it completely undermines the movie.

For me, that's not where I am with it. But it does soften my enthusiasm and dampen my enthusiasm for it. And so when you ask the question a few minutes ago about like the dark, gritty, heavy, I'm like, I feel perfectly. strongly. I also see this as a person without children. I'm not taking to the movies because they don't exist. I feel like the movie was not leaning in

enough to the tragedy and horror of the choices that the characters have to make at the end and didn't have enough self-awareness about its own moral. That's kind of the thing is like it was trying to have it both ways. Yes. Do you know what I mean? That's the main problem is like, yes, it was darker

but also trying to like add song and dance numbers and like a bunch of CGI animals so to distract you from like flying lemur though dropping houses on people yeah so like I want it we'll definitely get into that more but I'm kind of like does the movie even understand its own message is like a genuine question I have and on Tuesday that was all I could think about so Tuesday I was like the notes started creeping it the respective kind of calibration of enthusiasm and notes really swung for me once I was outside of my own little bubble, the bubble of the joy of seeing it with other people. Then I was like, you know, we talk about this a lot both in our, you know, just private

discussions with each other and sometimes on the pod, like sometimes you see something for the first time. You're just processing it. We both really like to have the opportunity to go revisit something as many times as we can, but certainly to have the experience to go see it at least a second time. And I was like, am I going to appreciate it more? Am I going to appreciate it less? Where will I net out? I really had a good time watching it again. So that was interesting to me. So I'm having this experience where like when I am consuming it in real time, I am enjoying watching it. I think just because the performances are so good.

And then once I am thinking about the story beats more, I am less enthusiastic about it. And so I would say I liked Wicked for Good. I did not love it and adore it the way that I maybe thought I did when we went from two hours and 17 minutes to two hours and 18 minutes. And I was like, wow. You know? So that's kind of my journey with it so far. I'm curious to see how it feels when I sit with it a little bit more. And after talking about it with you today, should we do it?

Let's do it. This episode is brought to you by Target. Listen up, Explorer, Stranger Things has returned to Target and the upside down is calling. Don't miss your chance to grab some epic exclusives like an AirPods case shaped like a mixtape cassette, the totally tasty Doritos, Stranger Pizza, and Cool Ranch chips, and the Demogorgian Crunch cereal. items are dropping all season long, so prepare for one last adventure at Target. This episode is brought to you by Sweet Green. The day doesn't ask for permission.

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Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-99-9 or visit setbound.lily.com. Let's deep dive gravity. All right, that's my singing. You're going to sing more, I think. I've contributed now. Okay. Should we be starting with the true love story of the film,

the relationship between Alphaba and Glinda, and how they have changed each other, maybe. But we're not going to. And I use the word starting very. loosely because we're 40 minutes into the pot already. But 30 minutes. I'm always like this will be a 90 minute pod. We'll see.

We're going to start with Wigwatch TM and FitWatch TM with Joanna Robinson, TM. Because I got to tell you, do I want to talk to you about the message of the story? Yes. Do I feel a moral and societal obligation to start with our golden boy go an extra Golden and the straw wig that this movie had Johnny Bailey, canonical sexiest man alive, trot out in. Yes. And I think the bad babies, your adoring public, demand that we start here. What was your reaction to the straw man reveal, the straw man look reveal of Johnny Bailey? Okay. So you know what? Let's actually quickly, I should say maybe you've already, you've reminded everybody

that you, you know, would dress up as Dorothy when you were a kid, you have this long relationship. I'll do a quick refresher, too. I love The Wizard of Oz, the film. Was absolutely terrified of the Flying Monkeys when I was a kid. This movie, these two movies have been a healing experience on that front. Actually, I think it's been like, oh, pretty cathartic. So because it's not a single apple through, you know, like tried to menace anyone? I just am like, now I understand, you know, for our flying monkeys.

I said Apple, I meant tree. sorry. I have no relationship to the McGuire novel. I've, like, you know, made my way through it here and there, but, like, it's not something that I have a deep attachment to or knowledge of. And I have seen the musical, as I mentioned on the first pot, I saw it in London, in 07 during my semester abroad, so during, like, the height of wicked mania. And I remember loving it and thinking it was amazing.

and I remember the absolute euphoria of finding discounted same-day student tickets. But I don't really remember. I just did so long ago my brain is useless now. Strauss's life is painless when your brain lives. And so I barely remember really anything about it. And so that was part of, I think, why I went into the first one with like very little expectations, even though I knew I liked the stage production and was so kind of blown away by not only what I thought was a very good, good fun movie, but kind of just how it gripped me.

This, of course, is a little bit of the opposite, where then you bring that hype and that expectation into it. All of which is to say, I had seen the musical, so I did know that this was sort of a weighted Fierro. Now I will say my second thing, which is, I don't think anybody watching the movie could have failed to, this is where this was heading, based on the, not only the, this is part of like the weird pacing but also kind of editing style choices inside of the film that were like a little bit perplexing. I think it was more baffling in other areas. But the very drastic stylistic shift in the fear. I think they were trying to like make it less scary. Like shoot it that way. I don't think they succeeded. But like shoot it that way to make it less like.

And also I think they were kind of trying to hide the ball in a weird way. But that's the thing. It's like like it was so weird. He's clearly, I mean, if you've seen the Wizard of Oz, he's like, he's being put up where we find the scarecrow and he's surrounded by wheat and then a bunch of straw pops up all over the castle. So I was like, are people supposed to be surprised by this when he turns his head? I genuinely like, that's not actually the worst example of that

to me in the movie. That would be the wizard's parental reveal, which I'm like, these were the two, I have like, okay, four or five top line notes. But the two moments where I was like, yeah, genuine jump scare, scarecrow, Johnny Bailey, and genuine jump scare, D.H. Jeff Goldblum. That was shocking. Very bad.

Yeah. I cannot believe, because I know, I know they did a hundred different versions of how do we scarecrowify people's sexiest man alive, Jonathan Bailey. And they were like, this is it, we did it. And I'm like, you didn't do it. because, like, I have questions about the weave of the CGI burlap on his face. I have questions about... I have a lot of questions about the burlap, too, but I'll be saving that for a separate category later.

I know. I have... I loved the straw epaulettes. Like, I loved, like, how they turned, like, his costume into sort of, like, scare crowiness. Like, I thought that was really cool. But I think the ultimate design is I think they were trying to achieve two things. One, for the people who didn't understand that this is what was happening, because they were very clearly trying to hide the...

ball on him being the scarecrow, sort of. It was supposed to be like, you can still tell this is Fierro, because she's like Fierro. But what was really confusing to me is wasn't she acting like she didn't know it was him? When, canonically, he sends her the message and she's like, we'll never see his face again. But the message she sends her is, hide under a trap door, pretend you're melting, let the girl try. Like, I will lead her to you. I will tell her to melt you. she will melt you and then I will come back for you because remember how I told you

there are hidden passage in my castle and then he shows up and she's like Fierro and I'm like you in the play she's just like he's like we did it at work and she's like great let's go well maybe she maybe the tone of Fierro she she was also having it look what they did to Johnny Bailey canonical sex use her the last moment anyway I just my sister was like what would you have had them do and I was like I honestly think if you're trying to like try to make him recognizably Johnny Bailey, I think is something that they were trying to do. And also try to make him still look kind of sexy,

I think is what they were trying to do. I genuinely think Ray Bulger looks sexier as the scarecrow in the original 1930s Wizard of Oz than this particular pile of pixels that we got here at the end of all things. It was like at the end of Beauty and the Beast when the Beast turns back into the prince

and she's like, I don't know. that the messaging was supposed to be even though I look so weird you still love me right and I'm like yeah but not like this I don't know it was just an uncanny pixel valley remember it's not lying

Joe like I would like that compliment to be a little more I just think you actually still look hot you know yeah anyway I thought that from behind

yeah you know they've only fucked once at this point so I don't know how much from behind there's bin, you know, and the initial... She kept her clothing on. They definitely fucked. Come on. They should have.

They should have. And then they lower down to the pillow panel and the bed. And then a shirt is off. And then a shirt is off and they're cradling. It's a post-coital cradle. I'm just saying they didn't go all the way. They didn't go full green. They kept her clothes on.

And I'm just like, if you're going to do it, do it. Let me say that was like a little bit of a spicier sequence than I was anticipating. This is my reverse take. and this leads us right into chunky knitwear take. Not spicy enough? Here is the open. That is one of the sexiest songs that ever happens. And usually in the stage show,

they're really just like fully clothed, kneeling in front of each other and like grasping each other's arms. They're not like fucking on stage while they're singing. But it starts with, kiss me too fiercely, hold me too tight. And she says that as she starts to walk away from him, and I was like, what are we doing? That was odd.

She takes off her clothing to only put on more clothing. And that abomination of a chunky, knit sweater, which is fine if you're just like writing yourself a reminder note to save the animals. But if the point is to seduce a guy that you have stolen away from your best friend, he's not yours as deal, I don't know, he's not whatever. It was her wedding day, which is a change from the play that I think makes it way worse, that they like went all the way to the wedding day.

And then they like left her on the altar. Tough. So really tough. I don't think, and she has that great line that she delivers well. And Adina Menzel delivered well, like, for the first time, I feel wicked. Like, that's a great line. Chunky netwear is not the vibe at all in this, in this scenario. Okay.

Is this how I feel. And I feel like what they did is, like, so he could, like, peel something off her shoulder, which is, like, as close as they were going to get to, like, showing us. And then, like, a steamy little kiss that they had. So, you know. Okay. I hear you. Let me, let me present a countertake.

first of all, this... Did a monkey make that sweater? All right. First of all, I mean, it's possible. The monkeys are very advanced. Chester, he's like, hey, you want a sexy little penwar? We know that he's, like, very attuned to what an outfit signifies because when he rips off his crest to, like, declare his new allegiance. All right, a couple things.

I hear all that counterpoints. One, this is actually just a great piece of knitwear. It's just great. It's not. It's great. I love a chunky sweater robe. I genuinely do. I own several.

But like, this one is like, it's like so chunky. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Well, she's living in a tree for years, multiple years. And so sometimes you need to just snuggle up and feel warm and cozy. That brings me in my next point. Do I agree with you that it didn't make much sense when she was basically singing, let's fuck, and then walked away while delivering that lyric?

I do agree. I thought that felt like a very contrived bit of staging and choreography to set up our kind of like tour around the abode that did not make sense in terms of what two people would do in that situation. However, I like that Alphaba is kind of like, prove it to me, make me believe it, I need to feel it, but also, I'm not sure I can believe it. And so I am wrapping myself up

in something that clearly is like a source of comfort. There's a vulnerability to it and there's one more layer, one more shield, and I'm not quite ready to remove it yet. Every movie needs you as their PR representative because I think that's bullshit, but it's so compelling. This is just me being deeply moved

by somebody's insecurity right on the precipice of fucking the canonical sexiest man alive. And what is he how? Who wouldn't be nervous? What stage business is Johnny Bailey has to do? Okay, takes off the...

I'm like, you're going in the right direction. The suspenders. Jacket, take out the suspenders. He's like, we're clearly going to fuck. Like, this is happening. Yes. And then he's just like lovingly starts stroking some scary propaganda of her.

He's just like, that is not what he should be lovingly stroking at that point. But that's what he's doing because she's dilly dallying with the netware, making a moment. making a full circuit of the treehouse. It's just simply not how I would have staged that. I did like the part where they were flying through the air. That was great.

Landing on the bed also good. Flying through the air, I was like, okay, we're not going to do like a surging ocean wave to convey ejaculation here. We're just going to actually rise, rise, rise, rise, rise. You know, sure. Here's my note on the sweater, which I've already shared for you via text. It's not practical in that setting. Save it for the castle.

Save it for the smooth stones of the castle. There are just far too many branches upon which you can snag the yarn. That monkey knit sweater would just be riddled with twigs and little burrs and little just like it would just not be the look. Anyway. We are going to talk later about fucking the scarecrow, but we'll leave it here for now because this was about fucking fear. Fierro, yeah. Fierro, yeah. Anything else on the Fitwatch or wigwatch front, Joe,

anything you'd like to say about the, I thought it was very, like, on trend, the sock pairings with the silver and ruby slippers? Oh, Dorothy's, Dorothy's puffy blue socks with the slippers. And Nessa Rose. And Nessarose. We had some, I thought that was like a good, actual visual wink of like, oh, you know what this is if you're either aware or just looking,

but also, like, you could probably see somebody walking down the street in Silver Lake put those on right now. We do have some blue and silver incorporated into Glinda's wardrobe in this film. That's very staged. She wears the blue in the stage. Okay, so like,

the silver slippers are L. Frank Baum, like, they were silver slippers in the original book, right? Yes. And ruby slippers for the 1930s movies because they're inglorious technic color and they're like the red will look really good on the yellow brick road. So that's where the ruby

slippers come from. There was a little Ruby Slipper Easter egg in the first movie, right? When Glinda's singing popular, she pulls up a pair of Ruby Slippers and sort of clacks them at in Alphabet's direction as a sort of like cute little Ruby Slipper moment. But they went with the silver slippers. And then, of course, they had this like moment when she's raising Nessarose out of the chair. And she and she's like, my feet there burn. This is this is not really in the show that way.

But turning them red to sort of like give the. audience like these are kind of these are the ruby slippers you know them sort of thing so trying to like incorporate nine different sort of like references of like the movie the original book the McGuire books all at once is sort of what this film is always trying to do so you know baby Glinda oh yeah this is my sister's note and I think it was a really good one I thought I hate saying this about children I thought the young actress playing Galinda was not very good I thought all the kids at the party were very good I thought young Elphaba

Nessa Rose in the first movie were very good I thought this little girl very cute not very good but my sister's like well they found someone with like darling little dimples to match Ariana Grande and she's like and someone who does not look naturally blonde which is also Ariana Grande so she's like they need to find someone with cute

dimples on whom a blonde wig would actually look kind of off and so I thought I was like oh that's a good it's a good point anyway I thought I want to say I got to see a movie with you and Morgan one day. I mean, Morgan works in the theater. She knows from Whigs. She knows much more about Wigs than I do.

So, you know, absolutely. What a statement. I mean, she's been working on stage shows for, you know. You're the Internet's foremost Wigwatch Scholar. No, that's not true at all. But, like, yeah, people work in the theater know about Wigs. So, yeah. I know another thing you know about songs.

It's song and dance. Song and dance, a musical number. let's talk next about something you've already alluded to, which is just the music that we were always going to get in the second act, right? And some of the concerns that already existed there, but also like a banger that you know awaits. And then the new songs that were incorporated here. We're going to hit some of this at the top,

and then we're going to go through the characters. Do you think that any song in this movie, like, did For Good, did the For Good duet between Alpha and Glinda meet the, mark of popular and defying gravity for you, or did even that, which is, I think, undeniably, the standout musical number of this movie, not quite measure up for you. Where are you on that? It didn't, but mostly because of how it was shot, because, again, when there was, there's a version that Ariana and Cynthia did with Kristen Chenow, with Anadina Mansell, the original actresses who played Alfa Bagelda on Broadway, they did all four of them singing this song

together recently in this sort of like live wicked thing that they did. That made me weep. It was so beautiful. Ariana and Cynthia know how to sing this song and they sing it very well. And that stretch of the movie is so emotional. The like when they're on each side of the door moment that already people are talking so much about like rightly so. Like all that's really good. John Chu, I have just so many bones to pick with his direction ideas. The way he's just spinning the camera around them for much of that song really bothered me. I'm like, can you just stop and linger on these women can just hold the camera. And you don't need to, I just don't agree with the way he often shoots musical numbers. This is true of in the Heights as well, like music

videos in a way that like really bothers me. I thought the girl in the bubble was like, we'll talk about that a little bit more. But anyway, like, yes, we'll get there in a minute, for sure. I think, I think, I really wish the camera had just let, just calm down and let these women emote and sing. Because I think Ariana Grande is great on every level. And I think Cynthia, I think there is just possibly no one better than Cynthia Rivo at emoting while singing. So it's astonishing. I think Ariana is a better, like an overall actor, I think inside of this than Cynthia. but when Cynthia's singing,

she just touches something so primal and elemental inside of her emotionality and this has just been true of her entire career. So I just, I wish there had been just space for that to exist. Hold space for that, please, don't you. That being said, the emotions of that moment, their performances just top tier. And I think before we get into the other two songs,

I will say there was an attempt, there were a lot of reprises from the first movie that they sort of inserted in here to be like, you remember popular, you remember Defying Gravity. We're going to like pull, you know, there's some in the stage show, but they added much more here trying to turn wonderful. They added Glinda into the wonderful number. So like the wizard and Alpha Bussing that. And they like, they're like, we'll just have Glinda come in and she can sing it too and like try to make that like a bigger, livelier number than it is in act too. So, like, they were really trying for it. But that's my long rambling answer to your question. Let's go back to you.

You loved for good. Talk to me about how it impacted you. I'm really interested in that point about the kind of relentless movement of the camera. I do have that note for The Girl in the Bubble, which we'll talk about a minute. I, yeah, this was my, this is an interesting thing because this is also the aspect. story-wise where I was like, wait, are we, I want to talk about like the message of what actually happens here and what the takeaways are from that a little bit more. And so my mind was really actively racing, thinking about that while I was watching it. But I was like blown

away by watching them sing this together. It was just, I mean, like you said, the performances are just so gobsmacking. And this portrait and this, like, the way that this song captures how these two people, friends, women have impacted each other and the change that they have made in each other's lives. And I think that's ultimately like the distinction in where the movie succeeds is I think it actually does like a really good job in capturing that on an individual interpersonal level and a much less, as much.

less successful in applying that at scale to like what the takeaway is when we're thinking about the choice here and what that means for like society. Yeah, when they're on the other sides of the door from each other, the tears, the tenderness, I think the way that this, I mean, first of all, the song is just great, but there is such a, the way that it builds from just the gentleness of like how they are looking at each other, the truth and like heart and emotionality of what they're conveying to each other. And the actual real, I think, very believably conveyed appreciation that each of them feels for the impact that the other had on them was like, I thought really, really good and

really impressive. So it did. I don't know that anything can quite, I mean, Define Gravity is like really iconic right away. But I thought this was quite, quite memorable as a musical number as well. It was maybe like the only song in the movie, though, that I felt that way about, which was not the case in the first film. No, the first film has loathing, popular, defying gravity, dancing through life, and The Wizard and Me. Yes.

Which are all great. You know? Yeah. That's so feast and famine, honestly. Yeah. The way that they say, like, I love you to each other was just, oh, my God, really good. Good. Let's talk about the two new songs, because I think actually it's like this is a good place to establish some context for what they were trying to achieve by adding these, both in terms of structure, lengths, space, making a movie, but also some of what they were going for thematically that I think makes complete sense conceptually and actually like maybe hurt because they couldn't then follow through on it. There is a piece in the New York Times and Esther Duckerman piece on both of these.

songs, interviews with Schwartz, with two, et cetera. So you can learn more about these. We have a couple quotes a poll today. I want to kind of share at the top here a note from a stretch from the piece about like why these two new songs were added, which I think is very telling. I also think it's bullshit, but okay. You're ringing it today. I love it. They want that Oscar.

That's always why they do it. That's why I underlined this. That's why I underline. Emphasis mine. Like that's why underline. I'm like, come on. Anytime you have to say this, this. is like, okay, quote, the director John M. Chu said there was no mandate to add more tunes in hopes

of gaining Oscar nominations, parentheses, only songs written directly for the screen are eligible, end parentheses. Instead, no place like home and the girl in the bubble were born of the decision to flesh out the second half of the story for its own feature film, a follow-up to the box off a smash simply title Wicked that was released one year ago. That meant bringing to life character beats that took place off stage in the Broadway version. Quote, it was about we need to go deeper with understanding where Elfabon and Glinda are in their journey, she said. Okay. I also agree. I think that if you have to say out loud, we didn't do this for the Oscar, that's definitely why you did it. That's why they always do it. Yeah. It's just a proud tradition.

And you can just admit it. We want that Oscar. Right. I also think, though, the actually then offered up instead of reason is, while I'm sure true and a driver, like kind of in a dice, right? We had to add songs. Sure, there's part of it here that is like because we are exploring these characters and we want to be able to do that through scene or song. But it's also like, well, we split the movies. We're making two movies. We have five plus hours of story to tell. And so we've got to fill it. And that is not, is it, is that an absolutely prohibitive starting place to end up with a bangor of a song? No. but that's not the same as genuine inspiration or the need to find a way through music inside of a musical to convey something essential about the character and that being the origin and the germ of why the song exists. Really good point.

And I also think like you could definitely cut both of those songs and I am not at a loss for how those people are feeling in that moment. I would, first thing I would do is I would cut no place like home. I thought that one was the real miss. It was really tough. I thought all the stuff, all the stuff with the animals there, like the fucking, sorry, animal underground railroad situation. Like, I thought it was like really weird. I thought it was so weird to have the cowardly lion do his thing twice because he comes out

in the, in the March of the Witch Hunter's song. And like, that's the reveal of that. But he's like, I'm going to do it here too. And I'm just like, this is such a weird. I thought, I thought it was. was so bizarre. I thought Girl in the Bubble was a better song. And I was like, again, the poor VFX supervisor who was like, it was so hard to do that.

And I bet it was. And so visually intriguing, but ultimately distracting from quite a good performance. Yeah. But I don't need either of those songs to understand what's going on for these characters. at all in this. And, but, so they're like, we need to, to flesh out act two, okay. Right. But then you ballooned it beyond two hours.

Like, you didn't need to flesh it out that much. And there's, like, so many things you could have snipped out. But, like, there are other things you added in, like, having Bowen Yang still here. Like, that stuff was fun and light. Like, that, I thought all of that stuff worked. I would have done more of that. I would have done more Boeing, yeah, than these two songs personally. Yeah, I thought we were actually missing.

a little bit more of that. The dear old shiz. Yeah, the shiz-esque, like, kind of quirk and really naked, sycophant energy. Like, we got a couple dabbles of it here, but it's so prevalent in the first one. And I think, frankly, like,

the absence of it here, not that those characters are, like, the only lens through which we would be able to understand this. I think we would need more. But I think the absence of that, it flattens overall, like, just a sense of the place.

And so much of the movie orients around, well, the people want to be lied to, right? People seek power. They seek a false narrative. They seek a shared villain. And it's like, but what is like life like here for anyone, right? And we don't have nearly enough glimpses into that. A Munchkin travel ban.

You know, there's a lot of God. Unbelievably tough stuff for Bach, not the only tough thing for Bach. I, so on the way that the camera moves and swings, in the girl in the bubble. I think there is a part of it conceptually that is interesting to me.

Obviously, it is quite routinely in that sequence, literalized with Glinda looking at the reflection of her younger self and then her current self in the reflection of the bubble itself, but also, of course, the way that she is, you know,

thinking throughout the film. And I think, to be clear, I think Glinda's arc in the movie was one of the more compelling things to me. What is it like if you, from the time you're a little kid, and your dream is to be able to do magic and you can't, but your guardians, your parents, your mother says to you,

like, the only thing you're ever going to need is the fact that people love you. And for much of Glinda's life, that's true. And then to get to a point where the things that she actually wants are not on offer to her and how deeply painful that is. Like, I think that was all actually really interesting to watch. We'll talk a little bit more about the Glinda Alpha Bunn, Glinda Fierro relationships as we go.

But so like, Glinda looking in a mirror and thinking about the all aspects, the first stuff in her journey. I get it. I just thought this was the swooping cameras moving through dimensionality and space and like, oh, you thought you were looking here, but you're really, it's just too fussy and showy for the sake I think of being fussy and showy.

And I think because it's in a musical number that is added to fill space, it's like we need to fill the movie to make it full and have two long movies, but also like we're admitting that we don't feel like we have enough songs to carry the story anyways. So then why do the two movies?

And, you know, I'm glad that both movies exist ultimately, but I think you can really feel that stretching and the pitfalls of that in sequences like that. I thought, though, that no place like home was a far less successful new song than the girl in the bubble by a comfortable margin. I understand. I mean, she's got no good deed. I always understand the impulse to want to give Cynthia Revo another song to sing, like, of course. Yes. just this doesn't and they're like oh we you know no place like home we really did something and I'm like I don't think you I'm afraid you did not do something yeah I think so like very overt deliberate

tether to the wizard of Oz there is ultimately to the song's detriment and not to its service I think that's really probably the response that many people are going to have to it and I think that like hearing Schwartz speak about it in that New York Times piece and you know alpha quote elphabom makes an enormous sacrifice at the end out of love for Oz, try to make things right in Oz, and the only way she realizes is possible. Winnie and I in the team felt that it was really important from a storytelling and emotional point of view to understand how much Elphaba actually loved her homeland. I don't think the follow-through on what it means for Alphaba then to give that up was quite, was executed in a way that justifies centering that. I understand the impulse to center,

and I think it is an important thing to understand about Alphaba, but you really ratchet that up and then say, because we ratcheted it up, people will understand what it means to give it up. And that's not the same thing. Yeah. I think especially also when she's like, where will you go?

There's nothing there. And then she's like, that's what I'm going to do later. It's just, yeah, anyway. Okay. The wisdom of eyes of it all, though, because we just talked about, yeah.

No place like home. Maybe that's a good segue for just another beat here on like this aspect of it. That girl from Kansas? And her dog, Dodo? Dodo. I will say Dodo killed me. That's from the stage show.

Very, very funny. And Ariana Grande, unsurprisingly, great comedic delivery on Dodo. When Kristen Cheneweth does it, the way it does in the stage show is like, it's her waving Dorothy off. And she's like, goodbye, Dorothy. Goodbye, Dodo. And it's just like extremely funny. But, like, their ongoing, like, exasperation with Dorothy is, like, pretty fantastic. Like, they're just like, ugh.

It's always something with this girl. Like, that's, it's great stuff. Really, really funny. Okay. I have kind of like a multi-prompting question here. I think not to make a straw man out of a movie featuring a straw man. But, you know, I, some of our colleagues and friends, critics of esteem and unrivaled intellectual prowess, there are, I would say, a chorus out there of people who are like,

this is an assault against the Wizard of Us, what this movie does on the, on the, on the, uh, incorporations and connections front. And I would say in the bulk of those critiques, it is noted that that is not necessarily the case to that extent and that level in the musical. So I think there are then people who are like, well,

why do this at all? I don't really agree with that or frankly think that's valid to say like, why take a aspect of a fictional universe, a character, story, and do something different with it or expand or say what would happen just out of view in the shadows? I like that, right? Like, I'm always kind of interested

in some sort of theater of the absurd, different perspective and lens into a stretch of time. I think that that impulse to do that in the wicked novel, in the stage musical, and in the films is actually very interesting to me. So that is less compelling to me. Everybody's welcome to think of I don't know that I really agree with that.

Like, I don't know if that's, if that was, like, a Juliette take or something like that. And I don't profess to be the same, like, degree of scholarship that Juliet has at the stage show. But, like, in making Bach is the Tin Man and Fierro is the scarecrow and the cowardly line is, like, all of the, like, in the stage show, there's just this, like, big Tin Man reveal. It's not him chopping down a fucking door, like, he's in the Shining. Right. there is this sort of like, oh my God, Bach is the Tin Man. Or there's like the Fierro goes up on the like, you know, a scarecrow sort of structure. Like all of that happens.

And like I, you know, and you've got Elfabah sort of like stamping on the, on the cellar door to like tell Dorothy to shut up. Like all of that stuff is in there. So like, no, we don't literally see like Dorothy's shadow on the wall. Well, we do. Actually, we see it on a curtain. So like, I don't know that I agree that it's not in the. stage show. I think it's as expanded as anything is from the stage show into act two. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So then how did you feel about the execution of the film? Because I think my two

questions are, is it valid as a premise and an enterprise? I think we both would say, yes. Is it successfully done here or does it feel like anything in the wicked for good execution of the tetheres and ties to the Wizard of Oz as a property, like runs a foul of something holy in your mind? Which I think is how some people feel about it. I mean, I think, you know, whoever that it is that feels that way, like, I remember talking to Sean about the first movie, right? And like, the idea of John Chu talking about the color grading on this film and sort of likening it to the sort of richness and beauty of the 1930s, Wizard of Oz, that was a little offensive to me because I was like, that's a beautiful thing and this feels, I don't know how to explain what I find exactly wrong

with the look of this movie because I know that they built so many of these sets and I know a lot of this is done practically and it still looks so fake and I don't know how they did that. But so like as a sort of like

CGI facsimile of the luxurious beauty that is the 1930s movie that I can kind of agree with. But like in terms of like this is like anything. I don't know. You and I are so well versed in like a twisted tale. Gregory McGuire's like

whole thing. He did like an ugly step sisters one. Like, this is just, like, what he did. Dorothy is very, like, prevalent in the wicked novel, you know? So, like, I think that that's just the premise of the enterprise is we're engaging with this text, you know? So I don't know why. How to reconcile those things fully, you know, the idea that, like, Fierro is the scarecrow and that the tornado is summoned by Madame Morrible.

I think, like, the mileage just may marry for people and whether they find. find that like valid as a pursuit. But it was always hokey. Yeah. Fierro is not the the, the, scarecrow in the book. Spoiler for the book, though, Fierro fucking dies in the book. So like, if you do want him to die or do you want to be a scarecrow, you can choose. Um, so. And it wasn't that exactly the dilemma right here? Exactly. Let's make sure he can't die and he's not going to be able to die if he's a suit stuffed with straw, with straw or a burlap sack, stuffed with straw, who, when viewed from behind, has a very, like, Surfer Boy, California, Blanchag. I do think we got way too much monkey stuff in this.

There was a lot of monkey stuff that, like... Interesting. And Chistery's whole, like, arc is just... Eat shit. Chistery is what you are declaring. Chistory should be history. I don't know. Chistory is a character from the book, though, so I don't know. But, yeah, the monkeys are way less of a thing in the stage show.

That's true. Again, I found the monkeys healing. You know, I found it, I don't know, it's like immersion therapy for me, I think, to just spend all this time with them as an adult now and no longer be so scarred by the experience of watching them shriek into my screen and plucked door to the road. Terrifying. I think in general, the animal aspects of the story are not one of the most successful aspects of it, which is maybe a shock for people to hear from an animal lover. I know, from Mallory Rubin. you know, such as yours truly. But, yeah.

I think that as a idea, as a concept, is a metaphor compelling to me, certainly. Sure. The othering, the literal scapegoating of a population, for sure. Yes. I think that works quite well. The actual deployment in the movie. I like the aspect that I like,

because my sister, my sister who has also seen the stage show, but she was just like, I don't remember anything. she's like remind me why the wizard is like blaming the animals. I was like to deflect from the fact that he can't do magic. And he's just sort of like trying to create a common enemy and all that stuff. Like that's interesting. Anyway. Yeah, I think, you know, most of the high level ideas about tyrants and fascists and people in pursuit of or actual control of power who are seeking to actively deceive manipulating control their public.

always find that interesting and certainly right now very resonant no question you know the the particulars of that inside of the story i think we still have just a lot of questions about with a number of the characters and just beats of the story so i mean like we we we talked a bit about how important the alpha benglinda yes friendship is how good areiana and cynthia are like they're so good yes that that it allows me to, to your point, when I'm watching them, forget a lot of my complaints about the movie or my issues or nitpicks or whatever it is, because Ariana is such a pleasure to watch. Cynthia is such like an absorbing presence when she's singing, et cetera. So it's just like it's, and I find the love story between two friends extremely important and

touching and lovely. And I think about you a lot when I think about, you know, like these two people. and that's very, very, very important to me. It's a very important that, like, that is the love story of this movie. The fact that they have a fight over a boy, here's my, which is fine, honestly, because that's just, like, realistically a thing that can happen.

But, like, the decision to extend the engagement from not just Fierro saying, kind of grudgingly and distractedly, I will marry you. Sure, I'll marry if it makes you happy. But going all the way up through the wedding to the wedding planning, turns Fierro into much more of a villain than he is in the play where it's just sort of like, sure, I'll marry you, just kidding, I'm leaving.

Still sucks. But I said yes to every step along the way of this planning process and now I'm leaving. Like, that makes him way worse. Also, not the first time Johnny Bailey has done that to a character in a, one of his major properties. This is a trend for him. So I think all of that is tough, but what I love about it is like, that's not what they're fighting about.

And, you know, they have the wonderful, straight from the stage play slap fight into a scrap fight. And it's so good. It's really, really good. And, but then there's the like, when they're singing for good. what Elphabas says, like, I'm sorry for all the things you blame me for. And then Glinda says, well, I think we know there's plenty of blame to share. You know what I mean?

It's just sort of like, sure, you stole my boyfriend, but I colluded with your shitty dad. And I just turned a blind eye into all this, like, propaganda they were spreading about you for years. Yeah. And I just assumed the whole time from the jump, from the word go, he'd be my boyfriend because I'm me. There's blame to share. There's some blame. Same, same, same. So, you know, all of that works for me.

Yeah, I'm with you. I also think about you a lot. And, you know, I've loved, I was thinking, not only just I thinking about you and our friendship and impact on each other. But, like, I was thinking about these kinds of friendships during covering Agatha and, like, covering House of the Dragon and talking about, like, Allison and Runeiro when they were young, you know, and just, like, all of them. the, I don't know, it's been such a rich part of engaging in these stories together. So I really responded so strongly. It has such an outsized impact, I think, in how I feel about the movie, because it's just so powerful. When they talk about, like, how they were changed by each other, change for good. I think about you so much. And I think about the way in which, like,

knowing you, talking to you about story has changed the way that I absorb story, has radically changed the way that I, like, view things. and pushed me to be better, all of these things that I really value out of our friendship, not to mention these sort of like unwavering emotional support you've given me over these years or like all the other things that makes you just like an absolutely top tier, tremendous friend.

So like, yeah, of course, I'm always thinking about you when I see something like this. But like I think there's some specifics that feel like especially present. Yeah, yes. I really have the same, I really had the same response to it. And I think that aspect of like having somebody in your life who you don't want to let down.

It was like really on my mind. I was like, that's why I'm about Joe. I don't want to disappoint you ever. So yeah, I'm getting, I'm getting teary-eyed. I really love that part of it and responded strongly. I think the like, to me, the balance of this is centered and showcased and prized as the true love story in the movie. Yeah. And they are fighting about a boy actually worked really well for me because of what you said.

I think that feels like. not only to me very just true to life. Sometimes people are really special to each other and also want the same thing. And like that is in conflict and it can take many forms, but like that's real. And sometimes you can want like the most for another person

and then also you want something for yourself and that's real. Right. So I actually liked that that was there and it didn't necessarily bother me that it was about a boy because I think like you said, it's not just that. And the fact that like for Elfaba, this idea of like,

like, does somebody want me? Does somebody desire me? Is such a powerful thing? And, you know, after an entire life to that point of feeling outside and othered. Yeah. And for Glinda, her version of that is like less, I think, overtly and easily, like, empathized with, but actually also I felt quite moving and powerfully rendered. Like, this idea that, okay.

she's confronting for, she's had a very privileged experience, right, and a very privileged life and has always been adored and always been complimented, always been popular, right? Always been the object of other people's like attention and desire. And this is something she actually wants. This is obviously communicated to us via song. This is something she wants, like to get what, to be at a place where you're like, this is what I thought I wanted. It doesn't feel like I thought it would at all. Or the thing I wanted, that person doesn't want me. That feels terrible no matter who you are on what your life has been like. Thank goodness is not ever going to be like a banger of a song. But the section where she says there's a kind of a sort of cost, there's a couple of things get lost.

There are bridges you cross. You didn't know you cross until you cross, which is like an incredible belting moment for both Chris and Jenna with Ariana Grande. And if that joy, that thrill doesn't thrill like you think it will still with this perfect finale that shares in the belly, and then she goes back into like, I couldn't be happier. But like that idea of getting what you think you want and it's not what you wanted because actually what was real was. was the friendship she shared with Elphaba or that idyllic memory that they keep going back to

of their day out in the meadow, you know? So like that idea of like you achieve like career-wise, you've achieved what you're supposed to achieve, but there's a hollowness to it because along the way of getting that, you have sacrifice things, there's been a cost,

and you lost some things. And so like what I love about that is that you have the end of Act 1, you know, define gravity when or the end of the first film, when they're like, you know, there's, at first there's the, like, sort of petty, I hope you're happy. But then there's like, I hope you're happy in the end. I hope you're happy, my friend. You know, Elfaba, I hope you're happy doing this thing. Elfa, I hope you're happy, freedom fighting. Glinda, I hope you're happy sort of like being this

face of whatever. But how can there not be inside of that resentments of like, Elphaba, you're making things so difficult for me? Or Glinda, how can you cozy up to, the wizard who you know lies. You know what I mean? Like I do hope you're happy, but I don't agree with the choices you're making. And so like having all of that sort of be represented by this fight over Fierro is like, it works fine for me. You know, absolutely.

I agree. I think also there, I really relate to what you just said. And I, that was very, very top of mind for me watching Glinda's journey in this movie and just like, I don't, I mean, I don't want to be like too cynical or nihilistic or bleak, but like, you know, I do have most, it's possible to be happy, like, truly, truly happy. You know, you think about that stuff all the time because, like, that's just part of the human experience, a part of being alive is that you are constantly moving in and out of some sort

of relationship with your own ambition or your own sense of longing. and your own view of what will be satisfying and then either feeling like that is elusive to you and that's painful or achieving it and attaining it and realize that it didn't make you happy at all. And that's a horrible feeling, right? And that's life a lot of the times.

So, yeah, I thought that that was captured through Glinda and through her experience in this film in a way that I found compelling to watch. I think all of that being wrapped in like Ariana's like two inch long eyelashes and like, you know, her injected lips and like the pink confections that she wears in nearly every scene. Like all, you know, it's just it's the perfect encapsulation of all of the sort of hollow perfection that she has achieved. Yeah. So my single favorite, I think performance beat from. from her in the movie, even though I had such a strong response to for good and, you know,

I thought that was so moving, that moment, the engagement, the public engagement with Fierro, and that moment where, you know, we're pretty tight on their profiles. He's like, you know, I'll do it if it'll make you happy. It's just like, it would make you happy too, right? And, you know, really starting to confront that that is not how he feels about it. And is that realization on delay it is. but like I just felt that so deeply. You know me, I'm always happy. I'm always happy. Brutal, savage.

Like that was just so, so, so painful. And then the, you know, not being able to like keep the damn clothes, like, choking out. He loves her because it is so undeniable at that point. And the only way that she can process her pain that this person she thought she wanted to spend her life with just pulled a gun on her is because it's not something. she can ignore anymore that these are two other people who want to be together and they're people she cares about. Could they have been a thruple? I guess it's something that we should think about. Yes. Joe, anything for you that you want to say about like the takeaways at the end and the messaging, you know, this idea has been present in the story since part one. You know, the best way

to bring folks together is to give them a real good enemy that's been here the whole time, right? Elphaba saying they need someone to be wicked so that you can be good. how does that sit with you as a message and a takeaway and the fact that the characters get to this point? And how much of it is the core outcome versus maybe what the movie does with that in terms of parsing? I mean, is this not the ending of the Dark Night? But not as successfully...

Not as successfully conveyed, I would say. Here's what I don't like. Yeah. Unlimited together, we're unlimited. And then Elphabah says, limited, look at me. Just look at me and limited. So this idea that, like, I'm limited because my skin is green and I'm the wicked witch, they will not take me seriously.

It has to come from you, you beautiful, thin, blown person. Like, they will hear it from you. Your love of the animals, they will hear me say the animals written in red, you know, crayon on my wall. They will not listen to, et cetera, et cetera. On the one hand, sure, you know, like, propaganda works both ways. And we can, like, discuss how messaging is best appropriate in both. blah, but this idea that like the woman who has been working outside the system has to like go

away into the desert in order for the kingdom to be united, I don't like that as a messaging. If she's like, I'm tired, I don't want to fight anymore. I've been fighting my whole life. I'm done. Like I have a lot of room for that as like an idea of like, you know, there are various marginalized people in our world that are just sort of like I'm exhausted and I don't feel like I should be the only one fighting and I get that. But like they'll never listen to someone like me is not the message I want sort of conveyed around.

And it can only come from a Glinda is not the sort of message that I really love. So like why not together? Why not, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Well, you can't have that because then the ending of the Wizard of Oz doesn't make sense. But since we're writing fan fiction anyway, why not? What I think is interesting, I said I forwarded this, this. email to you before we started recording. I really felt like they were setting up a sequel at the end of this movie in a way that I

don't feel like the play does. Yeah. The Gary McGuire books are so different. So it's sort of like impossible to sort of predict what could come. And Stephen Schwartz basically said to the angler, like, Winnie and I have been, Winnie Holstman and I have been talking about like not directly a sequel, but like an adjunct idea. Just sort of like, I don't know what the fuck he's talking about.

to be honest with you. But he's basically like a good idea hasn't presented for us to do a sequel. But here's what I think. I think the dollars will do a lot of talking and the studios will do anything they can to get Wicked Three. And if it's like Wicked Three,

I'll be going back. How do we get Dorothy the fuck out of here or something like that? I don't know what it's going to be. But like if this is the middle of a trilogy, a dark night ending so that we can get the Dark Night Rises. The Dark Night Rises is different.

The Dark Night Rises is I'm done fighting. I'm going to go enjoy a cappuccino and say hi to Michael Cain at a cafe. That's a different ending than the Dark Night being like they need an enemy. So I will, you know, sacrifice myself for that. So I don't, I don't, I don't love actually the messaging at the end of this story. No, that's a long way of saying that. I'm like, I'm really bumping on it. Yeah.

Like, because I think that there, for all the reasons you just said, and I think that there's so much of the story and the heart of it and the chorus of believing in yourself and shifting perspective and learning to appreciate people for who they are and not for who you think they are. That's so empowering

and such a story of acceptance and encouragement and belonging. And I think that the primary driver of that getting to a point of I'm defeated. I'm tired. It's too hard. It's not happening.

I'm with you. Like, I think there's a version of that that I have a lot of space for. I think it has to be presented as a real lament, though. Yeah. As like an active tragedy that that is the outcome. Right. And I don't think that is the tone here. There's a line from the stage version of Wonderful that is not in the movie version.

I really like when the wizard's trying to convince Elf about to come. back and work with him. Yeah. Before she discovers C.J. Animal Docow, like in his basement or whatever. But she's like, he's like, he says Elfah, but the most celebrated are the rehabilitated. Mm-hmm. At longest received you, long overdue, Elfa, the most celebrated are the rehabilitated. This idea of like, everyone loves a comeback story.

You know what I mean? Like, that's a, that is like, from a PR perspective. Mm-hmm. What can Glinda do, you know, to, like, rehab Elvaba's persona? Can she use her power for that so that Elvaba can stay in Oz, which apparently means so much to her that she sang a whole song about it? And, you know, in both the show and the movie, it's like we have to go. We have to lie to Glinda.

Glinda's not even allowed to know we're alive. We have to lie to her so that we can be safe. Well, I, like, I support that. But if Glinda's now the most powerful person in Oz, which it seems like she is, like is there not room for a different ending? Yeah. And like I think Elphaba showcasing that Elphaba is carrying maybe like multiple truths with her in that moment, right? That the despair of having to leave this place that she just has conveyed to us time and again means so much sure,

but also that there is something welcome about marching forward into a different kind of safety and people. But then to the Glinda point, like, I do think that when Glinda welcomes the animals back and, like, is championing the commitment to just trying to be better to try to do a little more tomorrow than you did today, that that's, like, meaningful. But I can't tell you how badly both times I saw the movie, I just wanted Glinda to say out loud to all of those people there burning the Wicked Witchers. I was empty. Like, yeah, I knew her at school. And guess what? She changed my life. And you guys are wrong.

And I am not necessarily going to blow up her spot. Right. She's like gone off because she doesn't know. But I'm not going to let you think that she's the common enemy, actually. That's not something I can accept or carry. I mean, especially when it was so easy for Glenda to turn the table on the animal propaganda, like that. She's like, just kidding. everyone come out and everyone's like all the munchkins who have been like fuck the animals are like yeah

animals are so cute right right it's so weird um yeah here's the deal in the book the ending is much sadder and horrible and yeah and and and death ridden okay so if they're like we want a happy ending for elphaba and fiero lives elfabba elvara lives they run off together and on the stage show is just sort of like let's go and you can imagine whatever that looks like right i think it was a mistake to show them trudging through the gray wastelands of Oz. As much as I like the commitment to the actual map, we got a quadling shout out from Bowen-Yang's character, and the quadlings are such an interesting part of the original Oz book,

so I love that they got a shout-out in this, but you don't need to commit to the wasteland deserts and just think about Elfabove Fero trudging through the gray windy deserts where there's no foliage for the rest of their lives? Like, that's not, if you're going to do a happy ending, don't end with sad trudging? I don't know. That would just be my note.

We could have ended with another fuckfest. I'd like to now ask you some questions about their love life moving forward. Please do. I have a lot of questions. I have some ideas. I don't want any of my ideas. I want all of your ideas about what it's like to have a fulfilling sexual relationship. with a man made of straw.

Okay, so my first question is, you know, a lot of the canon of how the scarecrow walks is like, we take a step and we sort of like flop over, right? The ankles aren't holding up to a footstep. So I have some questions about the- Everything floppy. Is that our question? Yeah, that's my first question is just like, how stiff is this straw getting, right? But my second question then becomes, can you, you know, we know we can move the straw around.

Like think of when Scarecrow's chest is kind of flat. And so can we can we pat out and do a little extra stuff? I'm thinking of like a mini, not a bale of hay, not like a square bale of hay, but you know, like sort of like when you, you know how when you reap a field. Sure. And they gather everything and sort of make a sort of cylindrical shape out of it. Yes, exactly. You know? Yes, exactly.

You want to bail that straw not in the way that. I might be thinking about it and fill it out. Make sure it is a girthy bale. But may you need some like twining, some like some structure to it to make sure that it is. Right. We need to achieve some density

and some structural integrity. What is it attached to? Well, the twining kind of gets me to my next question though because listen, the burlap sack. I just have some like abrasion risk concerns about fucking Fierro as the scarecrow. I do. But here's where I very quickly got in thinking it's through. Oh, you're so smart. You're an innovator. Ready made textural variance. It's not

the worst thing. Okay? So we just... Ribbed for her pleasure? This is exactly what I was thinking. We just kind of how, do we have a built-in ribbed for her pleasure situation here? We don't even need the ribbed condoms. We just need some sort of like lubricated. smoothing agent to avoid some really tough skin-on-skin contact. And then I think we're set. But I also want to make an observation. Please. We've got our straw-centric questions.

We've got our burlap-sac-centric questions. I am compelled to note. The tongue is still there. Yeah, but like, again, abrasions, sort of like it would, like, because the surrounding fascia is burlapy. That would, yes, that would be. Like, thiburn, you know what I mean? Yeah, that would be at risk.

But, like, you could probably take care of that with some, like, inventive. Here's a question I have. Do you feel like the people who thought the way in which the scarecrow, the Tin Man, Dorothy, and the Cowardly Lion are employed in this movie as an abomination to the original story? How do you think they feel about this conversation? Heard. Seen and heard. Known.

Understand. All right, thank you. Thank you for that. Anything else on the Fierre front that we haven't hit that you'd like to talk about? Or should we hit our dear Nessa Rose for a minute here? I got to say, Johnny Bailey, I love everything that's happening for you. I did not like the Jurassic Park movie you were in this year. That was very bad to make better choices.

But, you know, you soon are making some great choices, and I wish you well. Nessa Rose. Tell me everything on your mind about Nessarose. Drop that house. What an insufferable person. Wow. I'm sorry. Do I have some empathy for Nessa Rose, obviously. But her absolute refusal to see everything that her sister has ever tried to do for her.

The way in which she blames Elfaba for Bach's turning in Tin Man when she's the one who like removed his heart. Here's Elfabba's real guilt in that moment. Just not snatching that book away from her sister when she started, like opened it. Take the gruboury away from her. She has no business. It's a good note. Nessar Rose is so, she's terrible in the play, and then they added her, like,

the Munchkin travel ban aspect, the animal travel ban aspect, which is like additive, just horribleness from Nessa Rose is, yeah, I was glad when she was gone. Sorry. Glad that she was crushed by a house. what a take.

Drop that house, man. Drop that house, incredible take from you. Madam Morrible had some good points. You know, some of the Madam Morrible platform is working for you. This relationship, we really just needed a few more beats with these characters. Like, this was... You wanted more time with Nessaros? Well, I guess I don't feel like I can make that case to you right now.

after you just said you were glad that a house dropped on her and crushed her to death. I don't feel like I'm going to sway you with that argument. But I do think that we like, you know, their history together, their relationship as siblings, their relationship as friends, you know, building toward like, in general, I thought that no good deed and Elphaba, like, reflecting on her own motivations or her own relationship to the things that she has done was, like, really interesting. in this scene with Nessa Rose, I don't know, I just wanted to feel, obviously, it's intentional text that they're like absent in each other's lives at this point. But I wanted to feel a little bit more of the like resonance of that history than I did in that moment.

I did think that insult Tin Man was like iconic, though. I think I might be in the minority with this take, but I thought this was pretty fun. Bach has been kept. Oh yeah. Prisoner. He's been munchkin napped, so that's fucked up. Absolutely. That's a terrible thing has happened to him.

Has he handled it well? No, and that's true for a lot of the characters of the choices that they have made and the things that they've done. Is Nessa also a fascist? Yes. Yeah. A lot of people in power and Oz are fascists. That's all deplorable. Tin Man, just like the real extreme witch hunting heel turn for Tin Man is one of the more, I think,

think kind of conceptually compelling bits of like we're playing with the text. Yeah, yeah. So that's interesting to me. I was in love with a girl and the witch turned me into this is sort of like the way the story should go, right? And that girl is Glinda who never even knew your name. And if it wasn't Elphaba, it was actually Elphabah trying to save you from her shitty sister, what her shitty sister did to you, then, I mean, did Elphabah. But, like, also, is the real villain of this whole thing, and this is my friend Amy's point, the grimory?

The way that the grimary is, like, you don't get to know what you're saying. You just get to sort of like, I'll open a page for you and surprise, the T service is now a man. Like, you know, it's some questions. I am watching people in these movies interact with the grimary, and I'm just waiting for young Tom Riddle to emerge. That is so strongly the vibe from the grimary and cannot be trusting. Clearly. No. I think actually, like, that is, you know, I thought everything in that sequence of Nesseros was very rushed.

I think the beat where, like, she's looking at herself in the mirror and singing and belting was like, I felt myself leaning into the screen. But then it's like very quickly we're getting to like Wicked Witch of the East. On the alphabet front, though, I was kind of shook. Yes, Nessa Rose irresponsibly reads a spell. wrong, incorrectly, from a book that is leading everybody to terrible outcomes. All that's true. Elphaba tries to prevent Bach's heart from shrinking out of existence. Can't die if he doesn't need a heart tin man. Here we go. It's a salt. Okay. The cold, detached way that Elvaba

process turning Bach, a classmate of hers and a friend of hers into the tin man, I thought it was harrowing. And I don't quite think that the reflection that I enjoyed and found compelling inside of no good deed quite covered that. Like, is that enough self-reflection and guilt for what has happened here? Because there's a difference to me between I'm parsing my own motivation and what I want and what I'm seeking versus, oh, my God.

Like, I think with the Fierro stretch, we did get a like, what am I chanting moment, which felt necessary? Yeah. But like, if you, let me ask you this. You've said which part of a friend you would eat if lost in the wilderness and forced to turn to cannibalism. So let me ask you another question about friendship. If you motivated as you might be to spare a friend from mortal peril, in the heat of the moment, in the rush of the grimary, turned that friend into a tin man, would you like say sorry? Would you say something more than like...

We don't know. It was behind closed doors. Okay. She might have been like... You should go real like... Boy, I blew that one. I'm really sorry. Did she blow it?

Because like, she was just trying to stop him from dying. Nessa Rose is the one who blew it. And she tried to fix it. And yet, one of the things the movie taught us was there's blame to go around. There's bloody a blade to share. Okay. So you would turn someone into the... You would turn a friend into the tin man.

And you would, you would feel okay? about it. And then you would drop a house on Nessa Rose. Got it. I'm current. Am I the villain of Wicked for Good? Bach sucks. I don't know.

Like, that guy sucks. He did not deserve to be held captive, obviously. For years. For years. Because Nessa Rose, you know who sucks worse than Bach? Nessa Rose. So, Bach, making his whole entire personality, I really want Glinda, who wants nothing to do with me, is tough to root for.

for, but still I'm here for him to get out of Nessa Rose's house. So, you know. Oh, man. Cowardly Lion? What are your thoughts in Cowardly Lion? I just think it's an absolute travesty to have Coleman Domingo in your cast and have two lines. Travesty. That's strike two for the Coleman Domingo filmography in 2025. In the last two weeks. Can we stop wasting Coleman Domingo, who is one of the great gifts in our lives. Euphoria Season 3 is coming. So there's a...

That's right. Ugh. Okay, we already talked about the animals. Let's talk about the other villains. Madam Marble, the wonderful Wizard of Oz. Right. I have a little more salt to go around. I will just say this.

Tell me. To the beautiful Oscar-winning actress, Michelle Yo. Don't ever let John Chu make you sing again. Don't ever let it happen. You don't deserve that. But I will say the scene where she presents the bubble to Glinda and she is so over Glinda and she hates her so much was really funny. So great job, Michelle, you. That was really good. The withering scorn. So the eye or the

constant eye rolls. Really, really good. Good stuff. Um, I guess, you know, we talked already about like the not particularly successful fatherhood reveal, uh, where that came in the movie, how it was done, the de-aging, all of it. Anything else on the, the wizard front? I don't know. I think we have an idea that you want to talk about. Other than the like nine Jeff Goldblum-a-centric commercials I was served in front of my screening, did you get any of those? There was like a Traders commercial. There was like a Samsung smart home commercial or something. The Comcast, it was Comcast with like his actual son. I just got a lot of Jeff Goldblum. I'm going to be really honest. No commercials in front of the

screening. When I went last night, there were a ton of commercials. I was not paying attention to them. I was eating a movie theater hot dog, which I did text to you about after, because I was like, am I going to be okay for the pot tomorrow? And I was scouting to see if there were other open seats because I was sandwiched between two sick people, which I was very stressed about, and third detail that I had not yet shared with you. You had heard me bitch about those other two things. Thursday night football. I had three players going in Thursday night football, including Josh Allen. I am currently in seventh in the Ringer League. Only six teams make the playoffs.

He was playing. I did not look at my phone once the movie started, but I was tracking my fantasy score while the commercials were playing. And I support that. Yahoo app in one hand. Cinema hot dog and the other. And then I moved on to my popcorn.

You're a Tichu fantasy pack. You're a true American, and I love that about you. But I think that's fine taking your phone out before the movie, not during the movie, obviously. I think it's appalling to take your phone out during the movie. Unless you have really,

It's repulsive. You got to keep your brightness low. Unless you found a deserted theater and wished to watch Charteris. Or screen cover. And then, you know, no, no low, no screen cover. None of that. I mean, you shouldn't do it at all, but if you're going to do it, you cannot have your brightness up.

That's just uncunch. Just don't do it at all. Or just don't do it all. What about like the glow of a message on a watch? Now, I do not have one of those watches, but you do. So do you, do you turn it off? How far does the etiquette extend for you? Be honest.

I don't. Be honest. I want to admit to you. the fact that I don't know how to do that. I have a work tech thing to slack you about after this. It's a helpful one. I'm sending you a note, a helpful note about something. A reminder.

No, it's going to be good. You're going to be excited. Now I just have to actually remember to do it after saying I was going to do it. I hold my hand over my wash face when I'm in the movies. I can put it on airplane mode. I just don't know how to. I'm sorry. I just need to read the manual and how to.

You hold your hand on your wrist? the entire movie? Yeah, pretty much. What about snacks? And I'm not a cinema snacker the way that you are. I, what I should do is just take my watch off and put it on my bag. And sometimes I do that.

Sometimes I just take it off and put it in my bag. What I really should do is learn how to turn it off, but I don't know how to do that right now. So let's just not remind people how tech-inept I am that I need a slack from you later on about something. Oh, God. This has been a real tough moment for me. This has been a real Joanna has aged out of the technology moment of me having to admit I don't know how to turn off my smart ones.

I mean, I'm with you, honestly. I'm like afraid to download the new iOS. Because I'm just like, what won't I understand about the new systems? Oscar chances. Prognosticate for us. Okay, so some context. The 2024, Part 1, Wicked. netted 10.

I repeat 10. Academy Award nominations. Here's where they were. Best picture. Best actress for Cynthia Arrivo. Best supporting actress for Ariana Grande. Best costume design. Best film editing.

Best makeup and hair styling. Best production design. Best original score. Best sound. Best visual effects. It won two at the 10. Best costume design and best production design. It's early still.

But what's the forecast? Is there a tornado? Is there a cyclone? spinning on the Oscar frontier? Change in the weather? What do you think? Are we still looking at a Best Picture nomination? I think it could easily get in the bottom of the 10 nominees for Best Picture.

I think it's going to depend entirely on how much money it makes. And I expect it's going to make a ton. Is it going to be, if it's as big as Wicked was, I think we're going to see a lot of nominations. If it's if this sort of like the critical buzz of like this isn't very, very good catches on and other people, you know, agree, stuff like that, then I still think Ariana is getting nominated, no matter what, I think she's getting nominated. No question. I think one of these dumb songs is going to get nominated because they want Ariana Grande into

review to sing at the Oscars, though they probably could get them to do that even if they don't nominate the song. I don't know that it's going to win in these like costume design, production design categories again, only because they've got stuff like sinners and frankinson. there's just like a number of other competitors this year that are a little you know but knocking down the door though I would have given those worse and nose for a two last year um so I think it's gonna you're gonna see it but I don't think it's gonna be the same as it was last year where we were like could this win

best picture which was like a conversation Sean and I had at one point last year so I don't yeah so I think I think Cynthia and Ariana are gonna get nominated I think Arianna is definitely getting it nominated, mostly because A, she's tremendous, and B, it's one of the rankest category frauds I've ever seen in my life because she is definitely the lead of this movie. So that, I mean, that's my question, which, like, of course, category fraud is no new thing at the Oscars. Oh, yeah, but they're running her in supporting. But this is, this would be blatant category fraud. She is the lead in the movie. Do you think there's any chance she goes for lead actress?

No. No. Oh, because Jesse Buckley's winning lead actress. So, like, what's the point even? Hamnet Hive rise I can't wait to see that movie I can't wait to talk to you about it Am I going to be, well I even be able to see the screen

through my tears Absolutely not We should watch it together Yeah I would love to hold your hand while we watch Hamlet Yeah And then Go to London

Go to the Globe Theater I was going to say Double Feature with Fire and Ash Equally emotional And then you can cry for different reasons I will say this Update on GIF swap Yeah

I have made my plans to watch way of water, which I feel like I have. I haven't still haven't seen way of water. So I've made my plans to watch way of water in anticipation of fire and ash. Will you be doing it from a body of water? Will you be doing it with a whale? No, but I, I'm glad we've had so much to say about Juliet Litman in this podcast because she really unlocked something for me when she called it a planet, like going to the planetarium. And I was like, oh, I'll just get some California legal substances, watch it in the comfort of my home with some pals and go to the planetarium. I think being high on edibles, watching Whitewater is honestly a great idea.

That's the plan. Yeah. You didn't say I had to be sober when I watched it. Mixing a little of the wizard's elixir? What could go wrong? Have yourself an afternoon. She's a woman of two worlds. That's why she's so powerful.

So powerful. Great stuff. Okay, anything else? I'm wicked for good. Anything we didn't hit? I think we did it. A real mixed bag. But if people have a great time with it, I'm excited for them genuinely.

Yeah, me too. Oh, me too. Same. I hope people love it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious to see if anybody has as many thoughts as we do on how to manage the situation in the bedroom with the scarecrow. Hobbits and dragons are June.

email.com. I'll tell you this mark right now. Oh, before reading all of those emails directly to you. That's your reading assignment, not my. I always get a little scared when we ask for emails like that, you know? Anything on the signet with your pickle front, I get a little nervous. Oh boy. You're the best. You're the best. Thank you to Carlos Chiroboga, with us today, as always. Thank you as well to our Juno Ramga Powell for additional production support and Jomi Adanon for his work on the social. We will see you all next week for Stranger Things Season 5, Volume 1, Part 1. We're really excited. We're really excited. I can't wait. Truly cannot wait. Until that, my darling. See you in Hawkins. Bye.

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