House of R - ‘X-Men ’97’ Episodes 4-6 Deep Dive

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

"The name’s Gambit, mon ami … remember it!" Mal and Jo are back to continue their ‘X-Men ’97’ deep dive by breaking down episodes 4-6. They discuss the stakes of the show (18:30) and explain why shame plays such a key role (56:40). Plus, they cover every romance and go over all that happened in the middle three episodes (78:37). Hosts: Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson Producer: Mike Wargon Additional Production: Arjuna Ramgopal Social: Jomi Adeniran Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What is going on with Kate Middleton? Which cult is popping off right now? What the hell is a trad wife? And why are we so obsessed with them? I'm Jody Walker. And I'm Chelsea Stark Jones. And we're obsessed. Obsessed with all the pop culture happenings,

filling our group chats and 4 You pages. And we want to talk about them with you. Our new show, We're Obsessed, is for all the things we're loving, buying, watching, listening to, and spiraling over right now. Follow the ringer-dish feed on Spotify to listen to We're Obsessed every Friday. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts.

Predict the spread, total points, and even the game winner. Sign up and get a $25 bonus. Offered by Fandul prediction markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Bonus is non-withdrawable and expires seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection to Restrictions apply. See terms at banduel.com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms. This episode is brought to by weather tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess.

You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. you don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. Mutant and tutor neutralize. The name's Gambit.

On a me. Remember it. Hello, welcome back to House of R. My name is Jonah Robinson and I'm an adult human being who is still emotionally devastated by an episode of an animated TV series that aired over a week ago. and I am joined today by my beloved co-host, Mallory Rubin, who is here to tell you that class is in session. Hello, Mallory. How are you doing?

Joanna, I could live forever. And still, my endless imagination would never conceive of a thing as perfect as you. Cool. I'm crying already. Here we are today on House of R to talk about episodes four, five, and six of X-Men 90s. If you did not catch it, we did do an episode covering episodes one through three. So you can go back and listen to that. If you want to get sort of like our bigger picture, thoughts about X-Men 97, and hear me

foolishly talk about how much I love a certain character. And I guess before I talk more about that, though perhaps the opening clip gave it away, we should issue a spoiler warning. Spoiler! Especially to our producer, Mike, who has not watched the episodes, but gets to hear us describe it to him today. Brutal draw for Mike today. What a champion. So sorry, Mike. We're here to talk about episodes four, five, and six, as I mentioned. So spoilers up through episode six of X-Men 97. Spoilers for some comics canon if it helps us talk about X-Men

97. Spoilers for the original X-Men animated series. Any other spoiler warning we want to issue here today, Mallory Rubin? I think you covered it nicely. Thanks, I try. I also want to, like, of course, talk about some program reminders. Yeah. We always love to talk about what's coming. I'm going to start with what's coming for us, which is Thanos is coming for us. Would you say, Mallory and Reuben?

Yep. Next week. Get ready to snap those fingers. Big, big anniversary of Avengers Endgame. So we are doing a two-episode celebration of Avengers Endgame. We're going to be doing a Hall of Fame episode about Tony Stark. Have you heard of him? I'll be on lots.

And an episode about Steve Rogers. Cap. Good old cap. I can't wait. Those are our two episodes next week. We're really, really excited about all of that. Welcome into the House of Our Hall of Fame boys. This is not only going to be a great way to look back at Avengers End Game.

Half a decade ago. How? Time. Why? What? I'll save all. of that complete existential anxiety that has spawned for me, realizing how long ago a head and game was for those pods.

But also it's an excuse when we do these character study pods, these Hall of Fame inductions, to look back at our time in total with the character. So it's really a way to look back at what Iron Man and Captain America did across the entire infinity in the saga, which is just like a real treat for us to get to share together. Can't wait. Loki has been sitting like sad and lonely as a cloud in the Hall of Fame all by himself waiting for some friends. So I'm sure he'll get along swimmingly with...

And these are definitely the characters that Loki wanted and documented next. Yeah. He respects and loves them both. Okay. Over on the Ring of the Night Boys, Poopew will also be revisiting Avengers Endgame in their own way. And then over on Button Mash, Knuckles, which is a real television series that exists, inspired by Sonic the Hedgehog. Ben will be covering that. I don't know who else will be helping him out with that, but your knuckles coverage will be coming from button mash.

And that's what's going on over here, over on the ringerverse, Mallory Rubin. How do folks keep track of all that? I would recommend following the pod on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Load up the house of R. Hit that follow button. Load up the ringerverse, hit that follow button. Then you're kind of, you're just golden from there. You'll see episodes when they post.

What more do you need? You do need more. Great news. We have more for you. The ringerverse is waiting for you on the social media platform of your choosing. The ringerverse is on Twitter, TikTok, Instagram. Joe, we have a little reel up for folks on Instagram. Actually, it's everywhere.

It's on all the ringerverse socials. Lovely. Celebrating our friendship. People were shocked in a pall to find out how tall I am. Or the question was, is Mallory very shorter is Joanna very tall? And I would say, why not a little bit of both, actually? It was wonderful to be with you in person this week. I miss you.

I miss you terribly already. What a true. I'll be back in mere weeks. Mirr weeks. In those weeks and also in the weeks after when you're back here in L.A., if people want to reach us, if people have thoughts, if people are like, Boy, I know how much Gambit means to Joanna. And in X-Men 97, we had meaningful time with Gambit and a red apple.

What does this mean for the House of our Apple Wars? Send your emails. The inbox is open. Hobbits and Dragons at gmail.com. Multiple red apple moments in these three episodes of X-Men 97. Charles also had some good Apple content. He did. Also with red Apple.

What was Gambit saying about the apple? He was way overpriced. It was not a commentary on the quality of the apple. It was on the economic turmoil that he was observing. This is worth this money. This, maybe if it were a green apple, it will be worth 10 genotian bucks, but it's not. All right. Episode four is Motendo Life Death Part 1, written by Baudameo and Charlie Feldman, directed by Chase Conley.

Episode 5, The Biggie, Remember It, written by Bauda Mayo, direct. directed by Emmy Yonamura, and episode six, life death part two, written by Charlie Feldman, directed by Chase Conley. We are going to do what we did last time, which is we're going to go sort of character by character through some of these storylines. So we're not going episode by episode. We're just going to, you know, it just gives us more room to just sit and sit with our gambit feelings for a while if we want to. But first and foremost, Mel, I just want to ask you, like, let's go to the opening snapshot. And why don't you just, tell me your thoughts, your impressions of these three episodes.

I'm having a wonderful time with this television program that I am enjoying consistently, week to week. As we discussed at the end of our prior episode, it did not necessarily feel like I needed a standalone Jubilee episode, and then guess what? We didn't get one. It was the third of an episode. Now, I have some thoughts on what that ultimately ended up meaning for the life depth storyline to be split in a way that I don't think benefited it. But I'm a war with myself over

that. So I'm excited to talk about that with you. But overall, I thought all three of these episodes, I would rank them five at the top, then six, then four, but all featured moments with characters that I, just as was the case coming out of the first three episodes, not only found myself riveted by in real time, but have like spent a long time thinking about. And this is a entertaining television program and also, I think, an incredibly poignant and rich text about human nature and connection and the things that drive people toward each other and away from each other. And it continues to really amaze me, not because I'm surprised. I think, as we talked about last week, this has kind of always been the proposition of a great X-Men story,

but amazed in the delighted way, right, that we are getting so much potent character-driven exploration inside of 27 to episode 5 was a little longer. Like with credits, that was 36 minutes. But that's far and away the longest episode of the show so far. And we're packing in so much. Oftentimes nobody likes to hear that I do this, but oftentimes I'll sort of just like hover the mouse over the progress bar

to just sort of like see where I am. Not because I'm impatient. I'm just curious about like the rhythms of an episode. Right. And I'm like, where I'm here? But with the Jubilee episode, you were like, I was like, TikTok. Oh, baby.

But like, I almost every time I'll hover over the progress bar expecting that we're like three quarters of the way done or something like that. And it'll be like six minutes before the halfway mark. Yeah. It's amazing. It's astonishing what they're packing in here. And we do have an interesting comment from Bo. Basically what I did this morning is I just spent maybe an hour and a half on Boe-de-Mio's

Twitter feed because as we mentioned last week or last time. and we covered this, Beau was let go from X-Men. Though I think season two was already mostly, if not entirely done when that happened, so his voice will be on season two. But he, as a result, is not giving official interviews, answers some questions that he gets with, like, I can't, there's an NDA. But since episode five hit, we're going to talk about episode five, sort of an impact on the conversation in a second.

he has been much more present on Twitter, just like answering people's questions, interacting. So he's not like sitting down with, you know, screen crush or Entertainment Weekly giving official interviews that's going to like some of the producers, those directors or other writers. But he is sort of like if you put all of his tweets together, essentially like giving interviews. So we'll have some insights for him peppered throughout this episode, which I'm very grateful for because it's very, very thoughtful. But I want to talk about episode five. Obviously, we'll talk about what it means to me personally.

But even if I put my personal feelings in a box, put the lid on the pot of gumbo for the moment, I think you can't deny that it has done a lot to push X-Men 97 into the larger conversation just because people who are already watching and enjoying the show were just, babbling about how they felt about this episode. A lot of hyperbole flying back and forth. This is the best thing ever. This is the best thing Marvel has done in the year. Like, well, blah, this is better than most movies, like, etc., etc.

And whether or not you agree with that, it drew a lot of eyeballs to X-Men 97 of people were like, nah, that's not for me. I'm not a kid anymore. I don't want to watch it. Like, stuff like that. And I think... Do you think we should revote on the hype draft so that I can win? Got this in the fourth round.

That'll be the last mention. of any of my recent draft results over the course of this podcast. That's not how that works. I know. I am fond of reminding us that is not how the hype draft works, but I had to say it once.

Okay. Well, I'm proud of you. Good job. I'm really impressed. Are you going to go back in time and stop making fun of Sean for drafting it last year? I never made fun of him for

believing that this would be a great show. It was just that after you took Spider-Verse, there was no reason to go to animation. that early. It's just simply a position of scarcity, logic, like, tactical approach to a draft that I was confounded by. But again, we don't need to discuss this now. If you want to hear Mallory Rubin, Joanna, Robin, and Sean Fennessee and other people that you enjoy in love talk about drafting movies that maybe you've seen in love, you can listen to the marathon or watch. Watch it. It's on YouTube. A big pick draft that we did earlier this week. What a party that was.

What a time. Genuinely, genuinely wonderful, full day together. Just with a lot of time, all of us together. So, okay, so episode five and the way that it's sort of, what it's reminding me of is when Wanda Vision first hit Disney Plus, and there are plenty of people who were like, no, I don't really need to watch a Marvel show. And then people started watching Wanda Vision. They're like, no, it's actually great. And I feel like it drew a lot of eyeballs outside of the target demo for a Marvel Disney Plus show. And I feel like that's kind of what's happening in the wake of episode five, sort of pushing the conversation.

Not just because it changed Charles's mind over the midnight boys about how we felt about X-Men 97. But just anecdotally, I've had a lot of people come up to me and say or, you know, message me and say, like, should I be watching this? Is this something I should be watching? What's been your experience or of anecdotally watching the episode five discourse? I don't know that I have like as keen of a feel for maybe how this is spreading outside of the group of people who would already be inclined to watch it. And I think this is like in part because we're living in this like algorithmically driven social media era where like I genuinely sometimes can't tell if the volume of discourse that I'm seeing on Twitter or anywhere on a given night is like because that's the stuff. if I'm engaging with already and like the accounts I follow or tweeting about that already or if that's because it's like reflective and representative of some sort of larger surge in conversation.

So sometimes the way I like to track this is like, and you're observing something similar, right? The people in my life who maybe aren't inclined to consume Marvel or comic book stories and then like within that the group of people who might not be inclined, who would maybe watch an X-Men story or Marvel story but aren't necessarily inclined to watch a full season of animated TV. I haven't had the influx of like, hey, should I check this out? That it sounds like maybe you have. But I don't know how many people I've talked to in the last few weeks who aren't already watching this. I will say the people who I know who are watching this

seem to be loving it. And that feels like really, really extreme and like pitch to the people who are spending time with this every week are like, this is like a special thing. Not only has this met expectations, but it has really drastically exceeded them. And so over time, yeah, I think that will permeate the discourse at large. And the other thing, like, we talk a lot and we don't certainly need to get lost in a conversation about like Marvel fatigue right now. But I am interested in tracking that of like, and I don't know exactly how to measure this even or really assess it.

But does X-Men 97 feel like a positive counter-reaching? weight to some of the, I'm out of Marvel, I'm done with Marvel. It feels like there are too many connected things that I don't even know where to begin. It's like, pop into this, right? This is its own thing. This isn't MCU canon.

Like, you can just consume this and not worry about any of the other stuff. Or if because that Marvel malaise head spread and sort of began to almost feel like it accalcified, if people are going to be less inclined than they otherwise would

to give something like this a chance, which I think would really be a shame. And I certainly hope that's not the case. I'm not saying it feels like it is. I just hope it's not. I hope that if people are like interested, they wouldn't be dissuaded from spending time with this because they're like, yeah, doesn't Marvel always just blow it with these things at the end?

It's like, I feel like this show is going to nail it at the end. We don't know. We're six episodes in, but we have no reason to believe that this will be anything but a smash hit at the finale mark. I feel like this season, I feel confident, especially the way that like Beau has been talking about, like he's like episode five is the warm up the real killer is eight nine 10 and I'm like I don't know if I'm emotionally available for that I know honestly like alarmed by that I mean like excited and thrilled but alarmed how could episode five be the warm up I don't know I don't know how to survive that but I do feel confident about at the very least this season of X-Men and then I don't you know

we'll see what happens in the future I hear what you're saying I I guess that's what I'm kind of hoping episode five reaction will at least reach people who are maybe like, I'm kind of out on Marvel. And they're like, oh, this is a good Marvel. And that's sort of, I think the best that Marvel can hope for going forward, at least until they sort of like rebuild public confidence is like, oh, people like Deadpool and Wolverine. Oh, people like the Agatha show.

Oh, people like, you know, like, this is good. This is good. But not an immediate automatic buy-in if it has Marvel slapped on it, I'm in. I think they no longer have that, but if they continue to stack the bricks of quality storytelling, which we know they're capable of, then they might get back to that sort of like brand recognition that people are just sort of like marble means quality storytelling. One thing that people have been saying, especially post episode five, is, and I don't know if I wholeheartedly agree with this, but this idea of like real sticks. there needs to be a cost. If there's a big battle, there should be a cost of some kind. And you and I have talked about versions of this and various properties that we've covered.

I do get irritated if there's like a big battle. And I don't feel like there was actual cost to our heroes at the end of it. And so many people are saying anecdotally that like that X-Men 97 has those like high stakes, doesn't feel safe. and that Marvel phase four hasn't felt that way. I don't know that I wholeheartedly agree with that. I think the advantage that X-Men 97 has with so many viewers is there's literal decades of investment in those characters versus so much of what phase four was trying to accomplish

is get you excited about new characters. And so when we talk about Tony and Cap next week at the end of end game, that's because we had all that time invested in them. And so their loss via time travel or a snap like means something to us more than we just introduce this character, etc. Do you know what I mean? So I think I don't know that it's like a,

I think it's a fair comp necessarily. Yeah, I agree. I think again, the fact, it doesn't mean it's not reasonable to draw the parallels or, make the comms, but the fact that X-Men 97 is not part of the multiverse saga continuity just to me makes it feel like a completely, like literally because it is, but also in terms of how I'm thinking about it, a separate thing, right? Now, that doesn't mean we won't, we can't or shouldn't say, well, when we see something successfully executed or rendered in space X,

like how does that influence the way we think about space Y over here? You know, in terms of phase four and phase five and the idea of stakes, I have like a sort of a conflicted thought on this that I don't know. I'm not expecting to really like resolve over the course of the phases four, five, and six because of what we talk about this a lot. Like the inherent, I think inherently vast sprawling multiversal storytelling presents this risk. It's part of why if it's executed deftly it can be so satisfying because you're always cognizant. of what the pitfalls are and how wrong it could go. I would say, like, just looking at the few releases in Phase 5 so far, that Loki had stakes to me.

Guardians 3 had stakes to me. I would say Secret Invasion, like, did not. Quantummania. Mix. You know, yeah. I mean, quantumania feels like they undid the stakes that they started to faint towards. But, like, that's the thing about Loki. And I promise we were going to talk about Ex-N-97 very specifically.

Like the thing with Loki is Loki has stakes if that's the ending that they stick with. And that's why, you know, despite the fact that you and I love Loki and would love to see Tom Hiddleston play him forever, for the story, I would like him to keep his butt in that chair. And that brings us back to the fate of Gambit. Because we're going to talk about it sort of more in depth, but I really am having a crisis around this particular character death. because personally, nostalgicically, emotionally, I am devastated, desolate to think about not having more time

with the animated version of Gambit. Brebele-Lipo, my favorite. But I'm like, but that's bumping up against my firmly held belief that like characters should stay dead if they die and it's a big moment. They should stay down because then it matters because it ended.

So this is the biggest test I've ever had of that personal theory of buying because Gambit means so much to me. I don't know if this will offer you any comfort. Obviously, we'll talk about the question of finality when we get into the. Yes. Gambit and Magneto stretch of the pod again, Mike, just so sorry for you. Sorry, Mike. This is the producer of this particular episode learning these facts in real time. You're brutal.

I obviously I agree that the finality, the definitive nature of a thing is part of what gives it weight and heft in consequence. I also agree, as we talked about at length, if anyone wants to hear our Loki coverage, we had, I mean, we just said our Loki season two finale pod is one of our favorite pods that we've ever done. Go check it out if you want to hear more on this. I am with you. I hope Loki stays there. I'm not necessarily expecting that, but I, and also there's a part of me that as strongly

or maybe more strongly, if I'm being honest with myself, wants to see Loki back, right? But the thing that I always think about with this is like, and this was a big part of the Infinity War into end game, snap time in our Marvel history for me is like the choice that Loki made

still matters, even if he leaves that throne. If Gambit comes back, the decision that he made to sacrifice himself for all those people, if Magneto comes back, that look that he shared with Rogue, the fact that the final thing he said in his moment of what he assumed would be his life was telling Leach, do not be afraid, that matters. I don't think those decisions have to feel like they lost their power or their import just because the character maybe comes back.

And I think some of this is just how I reconcile the nature of comic book storytelling to myself, which is like we often find ourselves right in that almost what feels less like a possibility and more like an inevitability. The other thing about the multiverse, though, is that maybe the way we return to a certain characters, it's a different version of that character. And so we get both of those things on offer at the same time. On the one hand, yes, on the other hand, like, I can't. I'm of two minds about it.

There's part of me that agrees with you and really does agree that, like, the choice matters, that decision matters. And for the record, again, we're not going, like, quite in the intended order. We'll loop back to this. But, like, I don't think Magnita's dead. And I don't think that's a cheap story to tell that that choice he made. Like, that is still very powerful and impactful to me. So, like, I don't think that's a cheap thing. There was not a second where I believe that Magneto allowed myself to believe that Magneto was dead.

But yes. Gambit is dead. And that death matters. And so, yeah, in a multiverse, we could get another gambit. But again, that just feels like sometimes, like, having your cake and eating it too, sort of narratively. Absolutely. That's the risk.

No doubt. Twist me up over the death of the loss of someone and then just, like, serve me up another version of them, like, in quick succession. The thing about people dying and coming back in comic book storytelling is that often, correct me if I'm wrong, hobbits and dragons at gmail.com, but like, my, sense of that is that it doesn't usually happen right away because comic storytelling

is sort of spun out on month a month basis, a different writer comes on, et cetera, et cetera, that like, when you bring a character back, not always, but like often, you know, if you ask someone is Magneto dead, they'll be like, well, he has died several

times in the comics or disappeared or faked his death or whatever, and then he always comes back. But it's not like I don't know. I think part of it too is I get irritated when people who write the shows,

this is just specifically about TV, when they say a character is dead and they're not dead. That frustrates me. That is definitely like an aspect of this that is feeling like we were being like intentionally led and it's like insisted upon that a certain thing is true in the back of your mind, you're like, but is it or for how long?

You know, the other thing I think about a lot with this, I always talk about the Infinity War into endgame and with the snap and those characters. But the other part of that is Loki, right? Like the fact that we've gotten some of the most magical stretches of the MCU with Loki in the Loki television program, like, Loki died in Infinity. Where now it is a little different with Loki because Loki is a character who is like constantly going through these, again, cycles of life and death and rebirth. and reinvention. But that was like, okay, that Tesseract is in your hand, the time heist.

You have poured it off and we have this new possibility because of it. Does that, does that change? Genuinely ask, like, does that change the way? And I'm, by the way, I'm not trying to convince you to think that Gambit should say that. I actually think we broadly agree on this. But does that cheapen the way you feel about that final moment with Loki and Thor? Absolutely not. And I think, I think what you've convinced me of is it just depends on execution. Exactly. depends on how it's done. And so it's not, it's not badly wrong. Very badly wrong.

Okay. Let's speak of going badly wrong. Let's talk about some of our misbegotten relationships and other ships on this show in our character dive of X-Men 97, starting with the quadrangle of Gene Gray, Scott Summers, Milam Pryor, RIP, and canonically short Wolverine. We could do six hours just on this. Let us soap opera. Oh my God. Tanglewip. Is it cheating if it's on the astral plane?

I would say that if we're throwing out mind drift, that it means we're still drifting. It means we're still drifting, baby. I think also in the particular context of these relationships, Gene clearly cares more about this psychic connection than the actual fucking. because as she says, that was, quote, our thing, communicating via psychic report. So this is, like, in some ways, the worst kind of transgression that Scott could possibly commit. And it is compounded further by the fact that now, like, do you love learning that your husband was fucking your clone and had a kid with her?

I mean, no, it's a lot to process. But he didn't know. Should he have known, we have some thoughts on that in our prior podcast. Listen to that podcast. But he didn't. He knows now. He knows now. And he has spent a month communing with Madeline.

While Jean is out there trying to restore her memory and sense of self. It's a no for me, Scott. I agree. It is also a no for me, Scott. We will, of course, say that Gene is smooching Logan as she's also doing this. You know, we all make mistakes. Mistakes were made. There's a difference between like one smooch and a month of this.

And I do, I mean, shout out this incredible show where that makes us think he's talking to Jean. And then we're like, oh, shit, it's Madeline. Is Scott Cyclops headed towards a heel turn? Are they all headed? Like, he has his outburst in this episode. We're talking about episode five where, um, in which just like could not be more aggravating as too mild a word. The fact that these very sex men have to like sit down with the press

and convince them that they are harmless and normal and palatable and deserve to live in this world at the same time that a genocide is being committed against their kind. Outrageous. Is like just one of the most devastating, you know, side by side story. lines that that could possibly happen. But... The absolute indignity of it. Absolutely.

And Scott, and like, Scott, from the beginning, just like the way that they're talking to him about the way that the light reflects off his sunglasses or whatever, like his glasses, like, his glasses. Like, it's just like from the beginning and he's so uncomfortable about it. But what truly sort of sets him off is the discussion of his son, which he is obviously still incredibly torn up and raw about. And then he has this outburst. Mike, can we, can we listen to this?

You're ungrateful. We fight. Risk our lives for you. Evil mutants, robots, crazy aliens. I gave him up. I gave him up because you can't say thank you. Because I have to stomach your questions and prove that I'm a person. I lie because the truth is we're nothing like you.

Thank God because it's the only reason you people are still alive. Does that sound like, I mean, Scott has had some, like, dark moments in the comics, but does that sound like the Boy Scout we know Scott Summers? That sounds like Magneto. Definitely. It does not sound like Scott. So do you think- That was my favorite part about it.

Oh, I know. I loved it. But, like, do you think? And it's such a fascinating place to put Scott, who we, as we talked about last time, has historically been, like, sort of one of the more, like, boring milk toast vanilla the character. So to give him this agitation, to give him this like sort of potential villain arc, possibly. I don't, I don't know where this is all going to go. Are they all going to be on that arc after something as devastating as Janusz? Like, we'll, we'll talk about that. But what did you think at this

moment, Mao? I loved it. As, as established in the first pod while I find Scott Summers, almost unbearably hot, it's not a, it's not a character that I typically am like, Scott, he really got me with that one. But I thought this was an incredible moment in part because hearing it from Scott, it felt so, like, that felt like the most relatable thing. And I love when stories, like, they take a character and like, well, I can't relate to think X, Y, or Z about your life, but you trying to keep it together and always act like this, like, and in some ways then that renders as this kind of sanctimonious quality that people rebel against, actually. But Scott wants to do the right thing, believes that he's a person who can help other people do the right thing. And then to see a person

just reach that moment where they can't contain their own resentment and bitterness is like, yeah, that's who hasn't been there for whatever reason and in whatever way. Prove that I'm a person. We talked a lot in our first pod about just how gorgeous the writing is across these episodes. And I don't know, like, I still think that the number, the many, many, many Magneto speeches we got in the second episode. Like, they take the cake for me. But we got a number of characters had moments across these three episodes where they said something that was just like kind of awe-inspiring.

Prove that I'm a person. The number of people who would watch that and hear that and some aspect maybe of their life where they felt that way, like would be something that became a point of connection and understanding between you and these characters that you're watching. And that's an amazing thing when a story can do that. I think to your heel turn question, I also thought, like, boy, this doesn't sound like Scott Summers. This sounds like Magneto to me, which is compelling in a couple ways. One, I mean, everyone was confused when Magneto showed up at the mansion, but nobody was more actively opposed to it than Scott.

And so some of that was his own anxiety. Move there so quickly. Yes. Like some of that's his own insecurity, right? Was I not enough? Did the professor not trust me? But a lot of it is he's like, this is not a, I don't see the world the same way as him. I don't go about my business the same way.

is him. And in a moment like this, it's like when your rawest, most unvarnished self makes its way out of your mouth, you're like, maybe I do, at least sometimes. And so to your heel turn question, I think, I mean, it's possible. What I really have loved about the show so far, you know, there's a moment later that we'll talk about between the adversary and storm when we get like all of the faces of the X-Men and these kind of like warped corrupted capacities. And it was, yeah, it was yet another moment. Now, of course, the adversary is a villain, right? But yet another moment where somebody, we get it in the Charles storyline in episode six as well from a, this is not an enemy, this is like your great love, right? This is somebody you want to spend your life with.

The number of characters who have said to a member, to X-Men, like, are you sure? Are you sure about these people? And we've talked a lot already about, well, part of the beauty of the found family and finding other people who like will help you unlock the truest version of yourself and embrace it once you have is like a beautiful magical thing. And so the story seems consistently interested in providing the opposite perspective, which is the challenge to that, whether it's from friend or foe, right? What does it mean to then lock yourself inside of just this other group that is also maybe opposed to other people in a different way? And so I like the idea less that it's maybe an outright heel turn, though that would also be interesting to me. And more that the show is

interested in complexity, that the story is more compelling to us if it's not every person is bad and every X-Men is good or every mutant who has challenged the X-Men at some point has to remain a villain forever. Like, the Charles Eric stuff is so consistently riveting to us for this exact reason. Like, the person that you care most about in the world could be the one who lets you down the most. And that's the thing you have to carry. And that doesn't mean you give up on them, right?

And forgiveness is also, like, such an active part of this stretch of episodes as well. Memory. Like, what do you carry with you? How does that shape who you are? So Scott should have moments of doubt. He should have moments where he regrets the things he says or, like, has to wonder about what he's actually interested in and what he's driven by. That's just way more interesting than him, him always being the Boy Scout, other people call him. I completely agree.

And I think what has been so successful about these run of episodes is that we are used to in X-Men stories. We've got everyone else versus the X-Men, right? like the humans that don't understand versus the X-Men. So often the divided factions inside the mutant community have to unite against that outside threat. Or you have the divided faction question, which is usually represented by Xavier and his followers versus Magneto and his followers, right? Like, you know, when characters go back and forth on those teams is, you know, what is most interesting. A most recent, I think it was good until it wasn't good. An example of this is Jennifer Lawrence's mystique in that run of the live action

where I just sort of like, what does she actually believe? And that's tied to like identity, shame, all of that. And shame is such a huge part of what's going on in mutant kind in general in these stories, but very specifically in the storm storyline and a lot of these storylines. So what we're getting again and again with all of these characters so far is we're getting, as we mentioned last time, rapid fire storytelling, soap opera elevated level storytelling. And what is revealing is conflict inside the mutant heart, like the interior conflict. The only thing worth writing about Joanna? It's not mutant versus mutant. It's not outsiders versus mutants. It's a mutant against themselves time and time again.

be that like Jean and her clone or like you know storm in the adversary and you know or like Charles and the two things that he wants rogue in the way that she feels divided all of that sort of stuff and so that sort of splitting the children of Adam in in this story is is what they seem to be interested in and I think that's like what could be juicier what could possibly be juicier so um other than that red apple the gambit bit into yeah they just don't have to go this hard and they're just continually going this hard. Something, okay, so Gene and Wolverine have their little kiss. Again, Hugh Jackman fans, Wolverine is canonically short in the comics and, and sounds more Canadian than ever, I think, in this episode. But I love that both said on Twitter, it was in my mission statement to Marvel, that this was an X-Men, not a Wolverine show.

And so just celebrating, as we did last time, how much Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, a character and a performance that we love, has sort of swallowed the X-Men stories to a certain degree where, like, you know, he's back at it with Deadpool. Like, they just can't let him go. The live-action X-Men became so dependent on him. And the fact that we have this rich, this is just such a brilliant thing to do with your IP. of like find a way to tell this story that doesn't sort of, you don't need it. You can let it go. He's going to, he's going to have his stories. They're going to have Wolverine episodes going to happen. They're just like sort of slow rolling him in a way that like gets. Six episodes into the season. Yeah. It's amazing. Maybe not this season. Maybe it's a season two episode. But like, you know,

that would be, I don't think that would be incredible to not get any in season one. That would be bold. Next week is called Bright Eyes, which makes a lot of people think it's like about cable. And then you've got the three part finale. So, like, I don't know. I don't know what we're going to do. On the kiss front quickly. Yeah, please. I loved this little moment.

It's a great way of while not centering Logan in the story, still giving us something that just fills our hearts, right? Like, two things struck me about this. One, the, like, the way the gene is blushing. and like actually genuinely drawn to him, right? She's the one who leans in for the kiss. And so that is when we get to the Scott Gene argument in a minute here, that's in our minds. Like this question of like, do you actually feel this for me?

Or is this just something you think you're supposed to feel for me? And then we see what it looks like when she feels like actually pulled toward another person. So that struck me. And again, I think it's an example of something that happens in mere seconds in much like a 40R dash show. Me or seconds. Yeah. And it was really effective. And also, Logan's saying,

they've only ever seen one of you, there's only ever been one of you read just the one. Like, as a point of contrast to what she is going through with Scott and Madeline, that must just feel on the one hand so amazing to hear, but also deeply confusing. I mean, when she later has this confrontation with Scott, first of all, the phrase, whole galaxies beckoned me, again, the lyricism of the writing is incredible. But when she says that sinister cut out a part of me and you love it, it, a part of me.

Now, listen, Scott may go from two genes to no genes. if, I mean, Madeline Pryor's dead. That, that is something that I believe to be true. And, you know, let's say Gene decides it's short king season. I want, I want Logan. You get nothing, Scott, nothing. But, but I mean, this fight was so good because as in all good, fictional or real fights, I suppose, you can see both sides of it, you know?

Yeah. absolutely. I think hard truths from and for both of them in this argument. The fact that the camera crew and Beast and Trish are just like sitting there like, did you think of Lyman Beesbury when Bees goes, oh dear. Bees like the professor is always welcome here in the House of Ar. I'll tell you I was thinking about a lot in this episode with Jean was Donna Noble and thus, of course, you because just this question of like how can you understand who you are if you can't remember what you've been through and like what you've shared and that question of who are you without all of your memories is such a painful and devastating one in many different ways for people

to have to confront for like I think when Scott says to her remember or feel that's really fair. And like, you know, we're asking ourselves that, too, she's almost like studying her relationship with Scott. Like, it's a text that she needs to retain, right? Like, it's a puzzle, the puzzle of her life that she's trying to reconstruct. And I see this in the bubble and I tell Logan about it. But you do have those moments then, like when we're cutting back and forth between Scott and Gene and they're both recounting their perspective of the same instance. And you can feel this like genuine and sincere affection. So then you sort of have to wonder how fair that question even is.

But the relationship with Scott and Jean in this in this stretch here, it feels like the like primary life raft that Jean feels like she needs to repair in order to be able to make her way through the currents. Like that that's what it feels. Not like this is a person I know I care. deeply about and I actually want to be with and want to spend my time with. It's the one thing I remember. I just think that like I'm really excited to see what happens when Storm comes back because they did such a good job. You know, Storm referred in these episodes to Jean again as her sister.

Like they did such a good job talking about that relationship. And again, we know that like, you know, that was Madeline and and Aurora at the beginning of this season. But like there are other life rafts for for gene to cling to. Scott is not in a place having just recently gone through his own trauma of losing his son. They're both grappling with PTSD. And now everybody's going to be grappling with PTSD. It's just like, you know, everyone is walking around injured.

I really love the line that she says, the music is changing and you need a chair, leader, father, husband. Like this is brutal. Like the season starts and Scott is expecting to be a father any day now, happy in his marriage and has been put in charge of the X-Men. And just a few scant episodes later, he's got nothing, you know, none of it. And the music is changing. The paradigm is shifting. What is your role, Boy Scout, in all of this, in this new world that we're living in? And it's the kind of thing where we talk about this on another on.

on other pods when we're covering other stories, but like sometimes the person who knows you the best is capable of wounding you the most deeply, right? Because like they understand how to hurt you. And this felt like that to me because this actually is a genuine and true part of who Scott is and what he needs to like feel anchored, right? He needs to be in one of those positions. And so for Gene to like weaponize that as like you're making these decisions and you're making these mistakes because of your inadequacy. Like, you don't feel secure enough unless you're in one of these positions to even understand who you are or how you could positively impact other people.

And, like, someone taking something that you perceive as your strength and presenting it to you as a weakness is a very painful thing to have to confront, almost like whether or not it's valid, right? Yeah. These are riffs that I think will be, again, they're both saying things that I think are fair and true. and maybe that's maybe on the other side of that, there's some healing. But I think often it can take a little time to recover from somebody you love saying

something like that to you. What's also interesting to me is one of the things that Beau said on Twitter in response to someone talking about like this particular skirmish is he's like, do you think they'll care about any of that after what happened in Genosha? Like, you know what I mean? like is all of this going to seem small in the face of a genocide? And is it is we're going to go to Genoja next, but like, isn't that what can happen in the wake of a massive tragedy, the things that you thought were the most important,

the relationships you thought were irreparable or fractured, there is this coming together. No, that's not necessarily what's going to happen, you know, like it might drive them even further apart. But what is possible is that, you know, grappling with this threat to their very existence might mean like, okay, let's put marriage counseling on the back burner for now, you know. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab.

Taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible.

Ask your doctor about trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast, that's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services,

Plus 24-7 U.S.-based support, millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. Every outfit starts with a choice. What am I wearing underneath? Something comfortable?

And let's be honest. Something that keeps everything looking smooth. That's where Vanity Fair lingerie comes in. Their new smoothing wireless bra has four-way stretch fabric for all over smoothing, soft lightly lined cubs for a natural shape and no wire comfort that lasts all day. All over smooth, all day comfort, vanity fair lingerie. Find yours at Target today. Gambit.

Are you ready? And rogue and magneta. Here's what I will say. And this is what I do. I'm taking orders. I was so, I think, I'm worried that you were spoiled going to this episode because you were the one who told me that Gambit was like trending on Twitter. I had no, I had, I didn't have any of the specifics.

I just saw some slacks from in our, our ringer slack about this being a massive episode that had, uh, left people feeling a certain type of way, but I couldn't tell if that was like a, because of something sad or something exciting. And then I saw that Gambit was trending on Twitter, but I didn't see any of the particular. So I didn't, honestly, it didn't occur to me that he was going to die. I figured it was something about the Eric rogue. Like rogue choosing Magneto or something like that.

Yeah, relationship, which obviously is also a big part of this episode in a completely devastating way. Shout to Dave Gonzalez. He and I have been friends for so long. He is historically, especially like when I started The Ringer and I sort of tried to move away from spoiler culture a bit because it was stressing our listeners out. Dave has had such a like hard time left stranded on Spoiler Island without me, you know, And he's just like he can't talk to me about spoilers and it stresses him out. He did such a good job softballing this to me. He's like, hey, have you watched X-Men?

Like, he just asked me and he put no spice on it. He wasn't like, he might want to watch that sooner rather than later. He was just like, have you gotten to a yet? I was like, no. He's like, oh, okay. He knew what was going to happen to me. Adverable restraint. I was like, I was watching it.

And I don't think I've ever felt. I was trying to remember the last time I felt this. But, like, Thrones didn't even ever make me feel this, like, rocked by a death. Part of that is because I had, like, read about a lot of them before they happened or whatever. But, like, I don't think, like, since I was a teenager, I felt. And I think it's because I allowed myself to sink into the nostalgia trap in a way that I usually get, like, a little too cynical around storytelling beats to, like, let myself just, like, fully give myself over emotionally to a story. and Gambit is such like a oddly, like, primal part of, like, the foundation of my personality for some reason. I couldn't really fully explain it to you.

And so, as you know, because of how we're, I'm like crying. As you know, because of, like, how we were talking about it in episodes one through three discussion, like, I was just overwhelmed with joy to be back with this character who had, like, meant. so much to me. And I was like, oh, this is what people are talking about when they talk about, like, I want to spend more time with Skywalker. I want to do this, that, or the other thing. Like, I got it on a, on a sort of cellular level in a way that I think, again, my, like, cynicism around having read and watched so many stories has sort of shielded me from in the past. And I, I was just like almost rocking back and forth and going like, no, no, no, no, no.

as I was just sort of like barreling. Like at first I was like, oh, everyone's freaking out because, you know, Rogue is dumping gambit. And that's like really upsetting in its own right. But then when it just like felt inevitable that this is going to happen. And then I and then this is the whole process. And I was literally no. And then I was like, oh, it's fine.

Because cable was there. So they're just going to undo it with time travel. That's fine. It's not real. And then I read Beau's post. that he put on Twitter that has gone everywhere about how he considers this Janosha massacre, like akin to 9-11, akin to what happened in Poles Nightclub, akin to what happened in Tulsa.

And I just don't think you go out there saying those things if you plan to easily undo it with time travel. I agree. And so when he's like, Gambit's dead, now I believe it. And so that all happened sort of like within the span of an hour after me watching the episode. And then I started like shaking. I was like so upset about this. And I wasn't like mad because it's good storytelling.

Yeah, but it hurts. I was just devastating. I can't explain what happened to me. But it was a lot. And I mean, it helped me understand you and the way that a lot of other people feel when they lose fictional characters that they love. And I'm like, okay, I'll just never love again. I'll just never give myself over the same way again. It was just, yeah, trauma. And I know that sounds so exaggerated. It's the animated show, but like, no, it's a no. I think, first of all, thank you for sharing that with me and with us.

I love you. I wish we were still sitting in the studio together so that I could just cradle you in my arms and pet your head and soothe you. It's the fact that you're feeling such a keen loss is like the magic of loving a story in the first place. Like that's the incredible thing. Why do we spend all of our time doing this? Right? Like some of it is because we're analytical thinkers and we like to press a text and we like to understand. But that's entwined when a character really works their way into our hearts, I sometimes have moments from like, how is it possible that I could be this attached to a person who is not real, right?

It's like the old, of course, it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real idea? Like, the fact that a fictional character or a fictional world can start to feel so real, can take up that much space, not only in your mind, but in your heart, where it's not just something that occupies a lot of your time that you want to think about, but like you feel something deep and keen. And the joy of that is like the elation of getting to spend time, right, with these people and be in their world. And like you, we have these moments, whether we're reading or watching

something where we're like, what would it be like if I got to be there too, right? And that aspect of escape, but then also like the real, the real power. of like hitting that moment where it's like not about choosing another world over your own. It's about what your time with a given character in a given world helps you understand about your own life and the things that matter to you. And so of course when somebody like makes you feel that way, it'll hurt to lose them. If it didn't, then it wouldn't have meant that much time, it wouldn't have meant that much to be with them in the first place. And so you're, you're, the, the hurt that you're feeling is real and hard. But it just means, it just shows

how much Gambit meant to you, and that's wonderful. I want to be clear that I do, obviously, you know me. I do feel things for stories. I would say that I just like usually feel closer to like 80% because I can't turn like my story brain off. But this just like all the way to 100 and beyond is how I like lost myself in this particular story, which is just incredible. Incredibly well done. And it was, you know, in his, in his sort of little statement that he put up on Twitter,

Bo was like, this is all intentional. Like the crop top, everything was like there to like get you just sort of like even more enamored with with Gambit. Usually I get really resentful of something like that because I feel like I've been manipulated. But it doesn't make me resentful because I was just sort of like, well, I was already gone. Like there was that that was just mere drops in the bucket of the years that I have spent. just emotionally invested in this character. So before this, I've gone off the plan. Let's zoom back a little bit and talk before we even get to this incredible episode

before we got to the invasion and explosion and the deaths and the not death of Magneto, etc. On the subject of shame, which again will come back for storm. et cetera, et cetera. But like Genosha is this place for like second, a new life, a different kind of life for mutine kind for the Morlocks, et cetera. The fact that this is a location and we get Rogan, Gambit and Eric squabbling on the way there because they're all just like choking on their past.

Eric and Rogan, this like shared past that they have a gambit trying to understand, like scrabbling to hold on to something that feels like it's already gone, like all of this sort of stuff that happens. We got this incredible email from our listener, John, who happens to be Cajun. That is very, very, very, the whole email is very, very long. I tried to cut it down as much as possible. It's still a little chunky, but I am going to read it to you because it hits some of things we would hit anyway. John writes, there's a moment early in the episode where Rogue lies to gamut about who promised her that Genosha, safe haven for mutants, would one day come to fruition. Gammett thinks she's referring to the professor.

When they both know, she means Magidio. On the surface, she lies because she's afraid she'll hurt Gambit, but it's a specific type of shame about who she was before she met the X-Men. Later, Gambit's in his feelings talking to Nightcrawler and he says, scounder's like me, we don't get no white picket reward. We're too busy for love, too busy cynic. He's a former thief from a place with backwards thinking where growing up, he did what he had to do to survive. But that past haunts him. He never felt worthy of the X-Men or

rogue. As he watched season after season, his aloofness, sometimes frustrated Cyclops. He never seen like a team player, not because he felt different, because he felt unworthy. Nightcrawler says to Gambit that, quote, this is the quote you were looking to earlier, there is no love without sin, for love is best measured in what we forgive. And both Gambit and Magneto are seeking forgiveness for their past transgressions. And the deep tragedy of Gambit's demise is that I like to think he actually took Nightcrawler's advice. I think he was just starting to forgive not only Rogue but himself.

This harrowing experience taught him that love is all that matters, but he never gets the chance to express it and he never gets to hear from Rogue that she decided to choose him. They both make the right call and choose each other, but it's too late. Devastation. Man. There is no love without sin for love is best measured in what we forgive was, I thought, astonishing Nightcrawler really coming through with the poetry and the wisdom. And now he's in the opening credits, so he's on the team now.

I also just, I mean, no surprise, but yeah, the every little glimpse of Nightcrawler animation is just wonderful always. Kurt. This is just another example of, like, you can apply this idea to every character set that we're spending time with, like, without any need to reach or stretch. And it's true for romantic ties. It's true for friendship. Like, before we get to the stretch where Rogue tells Remy about her history with Eric and

what I thought was, like, frankly, Academy Awardworthy, the gala dance sequence that I just absolutely cannot wait to talk about. I, like, had chills watching that. When we're confronting even just this question of, like, well, why? do they want Eric to lead in the first place? And like, who is Eric just as he was in episode two thinking about? Not just Charles and the lessons of Charles's life, right? The belief that Charles had that people could be better, that they could be forgiven

and that they could receive another chance. When we'll get to Charles later, but I was like, holy fuck when he's face. his loyalty tests, and he's talking to Gladiator about Magneto, and he's like, I wish to remember him. Like, think of the number of things that Magneto has done that could lead Charles Xavier to say, I have no space for you in my head or my heart anymore. I have lost the capacity to try to understand or forgive. I have lost the capacity to try to convince you that you are capable of living a better way. But that's not where either character finds themselves, and that's amazing. Storm and Forge, that's a newer relationship. We'll talk about that as well.

But that question is very present in the life, death arc, right? This character who's trying to help you is in part complicit for where you found yourself. And Storm will reach the point where she says, like, everybody deserves to be saved, right? And I think it's, by the way, like, there's, I think there's room to disagree with that, right? And I think a lot of characters in the show would say that, too, but it's an interesting idea. And what does it mean for the X-Men to be characters who put this much stock in the idea of what it means to forgive? Basically, what is forgiveness? It's being welcomed back by somebody who cast you out at a certain point.

And so that has an application at large to what it means. means to be a mutant in the world, right? And then, of course, the question of can Remi forgive rogue, what that means for their relationship. We just talked about Scott and Gene. I mean, this touches everyone, this idea, and it touches everybody who's watching it and thinking about it at home. There are plenty of times in my life, and I'm sure in other people's where I have had no interest in forgiving somebody who I think has wronged me. And then I have to think about what that says about, not them, but me, right? And so this is like an incredibly powerful idea, whether you agree with it or not to ask you to think about and consider.

And I just think that's amazing. Inside just a handful of, you know, 30-minute animated episodes. I love the way. I don't know that I fully perfectly articulated sort of why Rogan Gambit have such like a chokehold on me. But I do think this concept of touch and who you can touch and whether or not you feel worthy of touch and all of that is so close. associated with this idea of shame. Remy looking at Rogue from afar and Kurt coming up to him and

talking to him about this idea of love. And he's just like looking at her and like a, yeah, I don't get, that's not something I get to have. Right. Like, and it's not, it, it happens to be because of her power set, but that's not the real reason why he feels like he doesn't get to hold on to this thing that he wants more than anything in the world. Let, Mike, can you, uh, please play this, the Gambit and Rogue Interaction. You never wanted to make things official. I respected that. I played the swamp rat.

And I played your share. All the expectations. Every time looking at you, seeing all the things I couldn't do. Like telling Gambit the dang truth. I can't touch you, Remy. Your heart may beat for me, but I can't feel it.

You, You light up everything you touch, but never me. Something's a bit deeper than skin, sheer. Not this. I'll wager that fool will break your heart in two. Gambit always knows the odds. That it? In this game he do.

Till then, we be friends more of me. Just friends. It's worth reiterating that all of this happens while Gammon is wearing a white tuxedo. and flicking play cards into the fire. Wasn't expecting a lady caller. Oh, man. Tossing the queen card into the fire.

Tough moment. Tough moment. Man. There's three visual moments in this episode that made me just like just blew my mind. One was when there's a part where Eric is talking to the Genition Council and we're just focused on this drink that is sweating and the ice is sort of like popping in it.

Yes. And part of me was thinking. thinking about that sequence and invincible where they were talking about not showing people's faces when they were talking. That was like part of it. But I was like, I don't think that's what's going on here. But I just thought that was incredible. I thought the flicking the queen of hearts into the fire was incredible. But I think the most incredible was when we get to the air dance, the ace of bass dance. And Magneto and Rogue are touching hands and it's framed around Gambit looking. And it's so and then the various eye contact moments later of gamut and a rogue looking at each other.

Gambits' face between their hands was astonishing. Oh, my God. And something that, again, we want to give everyone who deserves it credit for this. And we're giving Bo a lot of credit. And I think he deserves a lot of credit for the elevation of the language and some of the concepts. But he has made sure to let people know that that, like, that framing of gambit between the hands was, was like in the direction, not something that he wrote. So there are like these visual flares, the storm sequence, the storm getting her new look sequence, like stuff like that.

That is just sort of taking his ideas and then in the spirit of animation, just like making it art, something otherworldly. Talk to me about this ace of base happy nation skydance situation. Honestly, one of the best scenes I've ever seen. I really feel that way about it. I thought this was like awe-inspiring. You know, we have the backdrop, the very close proximity backdrop of this confession from Rogue to Gambit that we just heard. And like, you can hear the anguish in Rogue's voice in the clip that Mike just played, I can't touch you, Remy. Right.

And even the way that like in his room by the fire, the way that she's like grabbing and gripping her. own arm. Yeah. You know, there's those little details, like, to show the unfulfilled in their minds. So we obviously build toward a place of a different sort of really beautiful and heartening clarity. But in that moment, it feels like this thing that can never be fulfilled between them, right? Or attain this unattainable aspect inside of their relationship. And so when we're watching Rogue Or?

arrive. And of course, the other thing that's happening that's leading up to all of this is the recruitment, right? The pitch from Magneto rule alongside me. And I think the... We would be lucky to have you lead. Quite intellectually and emotionally compelling duality of that pitch, which is like, on the one hand, undeniably selfishly motivated and manipulative. And on the other hand, also does, and this is kind of the magneto brew, have an element of truth to it where you're like, does this person see me maybe more clearly

than like other people have? And so getting to glimpse the history between Eric and Rogue and to see... Something we talk about a lot is this idea of like, who knew you before? Yes.

Yeah. And he knew her before. And to see the way that she was like surprised to gain this understanding, not just the like, when we realized that his electromagnetic powers protected him. from my touch. Other things

happened. Started happening. Indeed, indeed they did. Of course they would. To see the way. I know you could really feel the ellipses in that line. To see the way that she was like a

something was awoken inside of her like seeing Magneto's vision for the world. Right? And that was true and real. And something about that helped her accept herself and that matter. And that matter. So we're bringing all of that into this moment with both of those relationships. And this sequence, the way that, first of all, like the way that everybody looks at her, the way that Magneto looks at her, the longing in all directions, the way that Remy is looking at them is, like there's this desperation in all directions that was just almost, I thought, unbearable, but also incredible to watch in the sequence.

And the way that they, they're not even dancing. They like entwine in the air. And there is this sultry, sexy, like almost sodden in desire quality to what we're watching that I think is understandable, especially coming off of, and again, I think in part this feels so effective to me because we build toward a moment in very short order where Rogue realizes that touch is not the only thing that matters, that the thing she has with Remy means more. and is worth more to her. And so it allowed me weirdly, I think, to appreciate what we got even more fully then,

because, like, you understand why you would want to know, right? You understand why you would want to get to experience the thing that you had been deprived of or felt like you couldn't have somewhere else. And then to see the hurt on Remy's face when he sees their hands touch was just, like,

absolutely devastating. It just like hurt so much. And you have this moment where you're like, maybe this is what she wants. And then they kiss and she pulls away and says Remi was right, but he's already gone. And he's about to be gone in a different way completely.

And he'll never know. Oh my God. And the way at the end, when not to jump ahead, but when she is cradling his body. I can't feel it. you. And says, I can't feel you. And like the anguish of her bare hand, ungloved on his face at last. And it's too late. It's just so heart-wrenching. And I just think it's very difficult to make us feel that many things for that many characters. It felt perfectly calibrated to me. The temptation, but then the clarity all in a stretch and a sequence where the decision and the response that every character made, like, made sense to me.

there's also this ask what I love about Magneto in this redemption era is that there's just still elements of the like the manipulator or the politician in him because it's like he he not he only makes his case to her but he's like what what will the other X men think if they know you know who you really are right that's like gaslight isolate right and then when he he does want like he wants her emotionally romantically

sexually like all of that that's true but like when he touches her and everyone gasped they're not gasping because they're like oh but poor Remy

they're gasping because like he's so powerful that he can touch the untouchable and that just sort further burnishes his legacy

and he knows that like that's a part of it it's not not a part of it so So, all right. Gambit, we've already talked about.

I do think he's dead. The only thing that I will say is there's this one Twitter exchange where someone on Twitter said, Gambit is my heart. Y'all better fucking fix this. And Bona may have replied, trust me. That's the only, like, sliver of doubt I have in terms of them keeping this death permanent. What do you make of that? I don't quite know how to reconcile that with what you shared earlier about 9-11 and Pulse.

I'm actually not sure what to make of that. You genuinely don't know. That's fascinating. Maybe. I'm thinking, perhaps he means, trust me, this is a story you actually want. We did this for a reason, not haphazardly. Yeah, something like that. That seems likely.

I do think, I think at least for a time. gamut is gone. And that is upsetting. Magneto, however, we do not think for a second is dead. Despite, like, an interview I read from the supervising producer who's just like, Gammon and Magneto, I'm like, yeah, and so is John Snow. I don't buy it at all. The Leach theory is the most prominent theory as to how Magneto could have survived this because

is he's with the young warlock leech who he said earlier in the season you know um you'll never have to be afraid again says habokine angst like this absolutely be i was like sobbing that was before gambit died i was crying at this moment it flashes back to auschwitz like all this you know heavy with meaning stuff for magneto leech's power means that he can temporarily you know sort of like a half rogue, sort of temporarily like sort of like suck up your, like downgrade your powers, which would mean that

Magneto would no longer register as an omega level threat because that's what we get is like omega level threat eliminated, right? So he's no longer registering as powerful as he is because Leach was right there sort of like leaching the power out. I'm into this theory.

I like this. I like this. I'm not prepared to move forward without Magneto. I'll say that. I do think that if Magnino survives, and I just think there's no way that he's dead. I do think that he's going to be extremely radicalized by this traumatic event. Absolutely. So, yeah.

We should also point out that you get a final heroic, deeply impactful heroic stand and decision before, once again, we see him. When he, like, throws the medal around Remy and Rogue, And then also later when Remy throws the motorcycle at Rove to, like, knock her out of the way and take, and like, just the fact that he goes out, like, he goes out quipping. He goes out, like, making gambling jokes. Genuinely iconic final line. And, yeah, final couple lines. Wonderful stuff.

But both Magneto and Remy, these were, if they are, in fact, final moments for one or both, incredibly effective, tough to think of how you could do it. better. For Magneto, like that callback, like you noted, to the episode two moment with the Morlocks, I promise you, child, the flashbacks to his origin story and his history, this they shall be avenged idea and this reminder that he's talking about a lot of things there. And like his history with persecution, a promise was made. Like a lot of people make promises that they don't keep. And what does it look like to Magneto to keep a promise? And when does that tip where the broader pursuit of a promise from mutankind comes into conflict again, if he does maybe survive this and come back radicalized, like I think you're,

you're right to know it as a likely possibility. Then that comes into conflict with the promise that he's been making to honor Charles's memory. And if then Charles is back and what is that, where do we find ourselves with all of that, right? Exactly. And that idea, like, we shall not live our days wondering if we could have saved more. I like that as the kind of the kind of promise you make to yourself, right?

And then the fact that that can be true for a lot of characters, but the way that you then move forward, you find yourself in conflict still with the people you think you should be aligned with. Very, very rich text on the storytelling front. Because we were doing this like Spielberg series on trial by content,

I had literally just watched Schindler's list before I watched this episode. And so that concept of like not asking yourself how many more could be saved, which is sort of like, you know, is the denouement of Schindler's list was just like, um, extra slicing at me. I also want to say if Gambit is gone forever, which again, I am of two minds about that. But if he is, Gamut, like, remember it. The name's Gamut Mon of Me, remember it.

iconic, but also Gammon see your bed and raise it because the car's always be in my favor coming right before the Jesus stabbed to the side of his torso is the most wash and firefly, I'm a leaf on the wind coated thing that I've ever seen and I just

like, that goes right in that bucket for me. I'm a leaf on the wind. Like, if I hear the phrase I'm a leaf on the wind, I feel a certain way. If I hear because the cars always be in my favor, I'm going to feel a certain kind of way about it. just like excellent television. You got me. I'm upset. Okay. Should we move on to Storm and Forge?

Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. I don't have like a tremendous amount to say about this. I really like this storyline a lot. Did you want to talk about sort of this idea of splitting it over two different episodes? How did you feel about that? I don't know. I think on the one hand, I was glad to get more to story.

spend more time in this storyline. And especially because I think getting basically the back half of the back half of episode four, first of all, it saved us from a full Roberto Jubilee episode. So thank you for that. It did, I think, help alleviate a little bit of the way. These two are in love with each other already. Painpoint. Just getting more time with them across a couple episodes. I thought it was beneficial in that respect. But it's not just that it was split across a couple episodes, we're then splicing in between this and other storylines when we circle back in episode six.

So I just thought this was like riveting these scenes. So good. Visually astonishing everything with the adversary. I'm fascinated by, again, you've noted that one of the themes of these episodes is this question of shame, this question of forgiveness, this question of merit, memory, like all of these things, they stitched together so potently in the Storm Forge adversary stretches. So I really loved these scenes. And I almost was like, I wish we had just gotten to, part of me wished we had just gotten to enjoy them in full, like, full concentration in one burst. Rather than having it tack, I'm like, tacking this on to the back half of a Jubilee episode to start.

It honestly almost made me nervous that some people like maybe would like miss the beginning of it. That was the part that I was most like, oh no. I hope everybody saw this from this. start. But I love the time we got with them. I think probably at the end of the day, it's more, like, it's more than one episode's worth of story, right? But I agree with your point that like, then give us even more, like time with them together, time with the adversary. The adversary, to your point, like visually, when it's cycling through all of the various mutant faces, just the way the fire, like, it's just incredible animation. Such a scary visage on this particular demon.

Again, we have to shout out the language. Oh, yummy, fear poached in self-loathing, more, the high road storm last stop. You pancaked by the pressure of existing. Like, this is an ostensibly, I guess, children's television show. Or, Storm saying, I do not fear death. And the adversary saying, I know.

That's why you rush to play dead. You fear living. you fear your power. This is like death by therapy is what has happened to storm here. It's like so tough. But this idea that the machine did work, did reinstate her power, but that her fear of her own power or her belief that it's better off that she's human or all of these things circling back to that concept of the white lie that Forge brings up.

that was fed to the name Americans, all of that. It's so potent and it's so important for us to remember, as we mentioned, when we discussed episodes one through three. This is a story, a show and a series of stories being held by a queer black man who is not only, like, study political science so is brilliant in the ways of like, in which Charles is going to talk about colonialism in a bit. and I think has clearly done a lot of therapy in the way that he has talked about this and has a beautiful way with words,

but can bring just like very personal experiences to these various stories. He says that he sees himself in Magneto, and he's like, I hope this is not Erica to say, but Magneto is me. That's how I feel. So that's why Magneto gets all the best speeches probably. That was clarifying. No excellent. But the, you know, there's pieces of him in Storm.

When we think about, when he talks about Storm and Forge as, you know, these black and brown characters and Storm being not just another mutant in a collection of mutants, but like the one black mutant in this particular class of mutants is part of this whole story. they're trying to tell that I absolutely love. So to wrap your arm around that pain and that shame and forgive yourself, which is, ties back into what night crawler, what Kurt was saying about, like, this is the only true expression of love is what we can forgive. What can we forgive about ourselves and accept about ourselves? This is the resolution of the adversary plot line for Storm. Mike, can we hear this clip?

Strange to feel grateful. towards a demon? What are demons, but reflections of our fears and shame? Things we bury within us, hide from loved ones, even as they poison our hearts, until we finally heal our adversary by embracing it. One of the things I really loved about the life-death plot is that before the adversary, the adversary, arrives in full. You know, we have these like

these glimpses, how old circling this idea of being trapped, like the wind in this area can only blow in one direction. But the things that Storm and Forge are discussing with each other get at the heart of this

in a way that helps you understand the adversary could only appear to you if you were in this place already, right? And I really liked the exchange when Storm said to Forge, your mutant gifts have allowed you to fix yourself. Like she's learning about his powers, trying to understand them.

He's sharing his past, his history. That will be a reveal that builds over time. Not all at once over that bison chili. We're going to hold some things back and share them when we're ready. But she says, your mutant gifts have allowed you to fix yourself. What a blessing. And his reply is, wasn't anything to fix. Just adapted and got a little creative.

And I was struck by both sides of that. You know, the longing with which she says, what a blessing. the way that she is mourning the loss of her powers, but also as we'll hear elsewhere in the stretch of this arc, like still that that callback to the conversation with Gene slash Madeline and that idea of like, would it be better actually? If I were human, like, I am better this way is a thing that Storm will say later in the arc, like better without her powers.

That's a terrible, devastating thing to think. And so part of her journey challenging the act, adversary is to embrace the true nature of who she has all the aspects that make storm storm and like she feels rudderless without her powers but also is still afraid of them and of of where having them and possessing them and being able to wield them puts her in the world and so for forge before the adversary attaches its beak to his shoulder and injects him with this quite the quite a unpleasant-looking demon venom. Protic goo, yeah.

Love a necrotic goo. He's offering up this different perspective, like pursuing a repair in whatever form, a machine you build, therapy that you undergo. Like, seeking progress doesn't have to mean you're broken. It just means that you're trying to move forward. And, like, that's a really important thing for Storm to consider. and like something that she needs to consider. And then, of course, we have, in the romantic aspect of this relationship,

we have this moment where he's saying to her, like, you don't need your powers to be a goddess. How do you not see that? And of course, that's not how she's thinking about it. And she's then responding to that in a way that is like almost inextricable. Her doubt, the personal doubt that she feels is inextricable them from the betrayal that she feels to learn about his role in the tech that robbed her of this, this aspect of might and sense of self.

So all of that was just like incredible and riveting. When the adversary says, I was wrong. Forge didn't rob you of your gifts. You had already renounced them. like that was chilling. And this idea of a villain of a foe who traps you in your own misery, like that your shame,

that the things you don't like or fear about yourself would be the prison in which you find yourself, like this self from which you cannot escape, it's just like a really harrowing thing to go from conceptual to literal for... Just the way that that feeds back into what we were saying about Scott and Jen.

gene, this idea of like, it's only someone who can go right inside your innermost secret heart and reveal to you the truths and then incapacitate you with them. And I like that idea that almost independent of whatever is actually happening on like a mythology and canon front with the initial banishing of the adversary with Forge's mother's spellbook and then the pursuit of this darkness dwelling cacti, magical cacti, and this question of like, wait, how did you return? you had been cast out, of course the demon would be able to come back because it wasn't about, it wasn't about removing this literal thing in front of you.

It was like the thing you had to cast out was your doubt and your shame. And the rebirth then that Storm undergoes when she taps back in to the aspects of who she really is, the things that make her, and maybe maybe those are the things that other people. So let them thunder for eye of lightning. Incredible. The fact that Storm gets her sailor moon moment, right, this like incredible transition into her, you know, comics canon costume, the hair regrows. She has this incredible flight with horses and water and stuff like that, which they have said,

and I've seen a side-by-side video of it and it is true as like, inspired by the first flight, Superman's first flight and Zach Snyder's Man of Steel, a movie that I don't enjoy. But it is a good sequence and it works really, really well here for Storm. It looks incredible. And I love this observation from an X-Men fan on Twitter at Bruno Mellick said, she used the feathers of the adversary to create the outfit. Now she's literally wearing her demon's skin.

Guess what? This show rules. Shall we talk about Charles and Lalandra and what I'm calling the inferior freak fluids chronicle? Absolutely iconic stuff from Deathbird with the freak fluids line. I have no notes. A moment, please, Molly Rubin. To speak to Charles Xavier's intergalactic sex life. This is something that we, I made a joke about when we were doing one through three

that Charles has just gone up to like have intergalactic space sex and that's just what he's doing. Turns out it's canon. We get this. Your man speaks as if I'm your pet. Not an entirely displeasing thought. She says, hush now, beloved. You may bark later. Yeah.

This was fantastic. When this, of all the things, I was excited to talk to you about from these three episodes, this is pretty high on the list. This is amazing. This is a very horny television show. Oh, my God. Yeah. Have our blood mix with this, his inferior freak fluids is good.

I think, though, my favorite death bird line is, Milky Way ghetto. I think that is instantly iconic. Death for a tough hang. Very tough hang. What is Charles Sater? Like, you're so dramatic. So dramatic. I would say all the, all the members of the Shia Empire are quite inclined toward drama. Pretty chill as it goes. Charles was ready, though. He knew that he was working against some very fervent, anti-terran sentiment. I enjoyed when he said it. And then he braided their active performative jingoism. Would erase the concerns about him being from Earth.

That was quite amusing. Can we talk for a minute about this, like, mutant longing and loyalty test? Yes. This aspect of the storyline, which I thought was really great and, like, pretty harrowing in a way that the show is, I think, achieving across storylines where it really, like, there's just a destabilizing element for what it means for the two characters

inside of a relationship or the three characters but then also you can apply it at scale. Like, even just the beginning of the way they talk about, you know, you wish you returned to your children,

don't you, and merely visit them, see their faces. Yet families often mimic black holes and there's this part of it. Like, you're like, Lelandra is right. This has real Thor families

can be tough energy to me, right? Maybe like, slightly like, less comedic capacity. But there's also this part of like... Coexistence is messy. The, you know, oh, okay, well, let's talk about what it would mean

if you went back just for a visit. Unless you fear they'll think you've abandoned them. Like, every character has their own motivation and the thing that they want. And hers is for Charles to stay there. That's like, again, bark later. And bark later and fuck freely the whole time. That's like real, like, unless you fear they'll think you've abandoned them as like total gaslighting. But I think she's then also right.

We're volleying and ping ponging back and forth. Like, you've earned a life for your own Charles. He has. But then also there's a part of me watching that it's like, are you going to be with a person who doesn't understand who you are? Well, but this is the conundrum of the superhero, right? Because like this is and this is a conundrum facing both Storm and Charles. It's like, can you go chill in a canyon in a cabin with four? forge, can you go into space and test all the various settings of your golden super suit that

lets you walk and what else does it let you do? I don't know. Let's find out. I can you, Steve Rogers, go back in time and have a dance with your girl? And can you, you know, like Superman, not answer every call for help that you ever hear? So like, where is the work-life balance or like when do you get to make a choice for yourself, you know? And I thought that She was deployed really successfully in this episode of, like, actually asking him questions that are important for him to consider, like the exchange about what it means to be a teacher and how part of the job of a teacher is to make sure your students

are then prepared to make their own decisions. Yeah. Right. And that's important for Charles to think about. But then, like, are they? Are they? And, like, the answer is no. Scott is not ready. Talk about that idea of shame.

You know, we build toward at the end of this episode, Charles saying, while I coward in the cosmos, coward in the cosmos, the unthinkable has happened. And that is, there's a part of that that's really tragic, that all of these characters can't allow themselves the reprieve for even a moment without coming to regret or lament, what they perceive as some sort of selfish act. And that's like really sad.

But who are you spending your time with? And like, you deserve happiness. You deserve to bark and fuck your, fuck your way across this. Empire. Shout out Ronan. It was great to see Ronan and the Cree. Just briefly, love a Cosmarod in any story. I was like that this version of Ronan could turn his head from side to side, which is not a luxury afforded Lee Pace's version of the character. That's a really good note on the MCU Ronan costume. Yeah. This loyalty test, this ploy from Deathbird, renounce your time on Earth, renounce the X-Men. Well, what would it mean if you couldn't remember the most content?

sequential aspects of who you are. And I was like genuinely alarmed when Llandra's note on that is Charles is a formidable psychic. That's a really fucked up thing to ask, which is something that he will eventually then have to say to her. Like, you know this went too far. Because you're asking me in essence not to remember who I am. Which brings us back to Jean and or Donna Noble. The weight in which Charles claims his power in this episode, again, in an episode where we see Storm like dress herself in the skin of her demon, that Charles realizes that his power, he's like, well, it's not physical. It's not even this psychic thing that I can do. It's being a teacher, being a professor, I am professor X and classes in session. And I love this again, like Beau, I said on Twitter that, like, he's, like, lifting from

polyside lectures that he took, you know, like he studied this in school and he's lifting these questions. We get a, like, rigid Kipling, white man's burden, like illusion in the mix here. I was reminded when he's talking about assimilate or die, this, like, the Shiar's approach to conquering and, quote unquote, making other planets better. but by erasing the culture of those planets and sort of installing their own. It reminded me a lot because when I think of Charles Xavier, I think of Patrick Stewart, it made me think of the board from Star Trek.

That's just for you, Trekkies at home. What did you make in the moment when Charles looks directly at the camera? He says, to answer, I've used my vast psychic abilities to draw us into the astral plane, looks at the camera and says, now pay attention. Right. What do you think is going on there? So, as you're noting, this superpower of being the teacher, well, like, then we're his pupils, too. And this idea of, like, the lesson that the show can give us as viewers, not just the characters who inhabit the world.

Like, the things that we hear from Charles on the heels of that moment, broadly it falls under that for you, for me to be more, you have to be less. Right. Why? Why? Which connects to that, that Magneto episode two speech,

like a shared world. And this is the, this is the, this is like the treatise of the show. So you strike at the knees. This is a lecture in more than one way, right? You strike at the knees and claim you can help them walk again.

I liked when he asked who made these rules. And Alonra replies, we did, beloved, by playing make-believe. And that question of the responsibilities that your powers present. Like what you need to do to nurture and heal and preserve rather than harm and cut down and destroy, but also it did actually make me think a little bit.

It's like, there's a who watches the Watchman idea. There's a Captony Accord Civil War idea here. Like, who gets to make that decision, right? And who can be trusted, not just with the power that they wield, but with the ability to decide how to use it. And, you know, we'll talk about this more in our Cap Hall of Fame episode, right? But, like, as you know, one of my favorite MCU moments is, like, the safest hands are are still our own because there are so many other characters who could say something like that

and that would be why you feared them. And like for Cap to be a character who says it and fills you with confidence is such an exceedingly rare thing. Charles is another such character, right? Where he could say things and I would be like, yes, I trust you with that power. Not you, Scott. But Charles for sure. Mike, can we hear this last clip, please?

Want to know a secret? Coexistence is messy. Thus my love for education, for my X-Men. Their heroism teaches a lesson we mustn't forget that the universe is very old and all of us, very young, born of ancient stardusts and all children of the atom. Children of the atom, beautiful, comic phrase. The music that you hear behind that is the same music. you heard when Eric is giving his speech in episode two.

We hear it in episode five as well. And it's a musical motif that the Newton brothers, who are the composers, you know, they also gave Storm an absolutely kick-ass musical cue for her transformation. It's a Walt that they composed and it's meant to be the Charles and Eric motif meant to tell their quote love story. However you choose to interpret that, I don't care. But like, you know, the eternal emmeshing. of Charles and Eric. And they're clashing ideologies, but their enduring affection for each other

is one of the strongest things the X-Men have to offer. Anything else you want to say about Charles or Lelandra or? I'm just glad. It's always great when Charles Xavier is here. Death Bird. Wasn't sure how long we'd have to wait. Here he is. I thought we might have to wait until the finale,

but here we are. Roberto and Jubilee, anything you want to say about Motendo? the only people who hate video games are bad at video games. Adam was like, yeah. I don't hate video games, to be clear, but I am bad at them. Oh, man. I genuinely don't have a ton to say about this.

You know, I think the, obviously there's like the meta commentary with a figure like mojo, which we can talk about for a moment perhaps. But, you know, just in terms of Jubilee, this is Jubilee's birthday, right? this is the exciting event is like, I want to go do this, Megina won't let me, I'm resentful, they're sucked into the Motendo.

Jubilee coming into contact with an older version of herself who is able to impart wisdom that I think was interesting for me to revisit having then, like last night,

having then seen episodes five and six because living doesn't get cheat codes or extra lives, feels like a little bit of a message for us heading into episode five. I think also there was a cautionary tale here about nostalgia that I just refused to learn in time before episode five smacked me upside the head. But yeah, I hope that they figure out a way to make Roberto and Jubilee more interesting than they already have. I want the best for both of them and for us as we watch television. Rapid Fire best of the rest.

Anything you want to say, we talked about Nightcrawler and how much we love him. He's in the opening credits now. Such wonders in the city. I do want to shout out the Hellfire Club reps Sebastian Shaw and Emma Frost who appeared to be dead. Dude. But Emma Frost saying like, what's wrong is it your dress? That's what she says? Yeah.

Whatever is the matter, Dr. Cooper? And then Emma was saying, is it your dress? Is it your dress? Is it one of the most brutal eviscerations? I was like in tears. Emma also calling Madeline out when Madeline's like, you know, sneaky cheating with Scott on the astral plane. And she's like, oh, sorry, my mind just drifted. And I was like, uh-huh.

I know what you were doing. Emma Frost, I love you. Wonderful. Rest in peace. Moira Taggart also appears to be dead. Callisto's dead. Dasler's dead. Any comments?

Yep. Moira Taggart and Danci, two of the worst accents I've ever heard in my entire life. Allegedly Irish and Scottish, but oh my goodness. The Moira accent in particular was, I will say astonishing. Wild stuff. The Watcher. The Watcher shows up just before shit goes sideways. This was great.

You really could. It was so subtle, but you couldn't miss it. The outline in the sky right before the attack. And you're like, you gasped. You're like, oh, my God, the watcher's here. Of course, then you get very nervous very quickly. But that was great. That was just a great little touch.

I love that. I mean, it's another reason why I don't think they can just undo this. Because the watcher being there makes it feel like a Canada event, like an event that has to happen. Cable's inability to figure out how to save his mom. Sorry, mom. Brutal. Sorry, mom. Brutal.

The sinister big bad reveal. Every second that we've spent with Mr. Sinister in the show has been absolutely horrifying. In a great way. Great villain. Watching father... Why, Genocia was nearly... Crawl on the floor in the horror, like a character that you think of as a consequential foe.

Cowering. Just absolutely cowering and recoiling and terror from another threat is good shorthand for showing us how afraid we should be. Why, Janos was merely the beginning of a prologue now past. Oh. Prolog now past was amazing. As we mentioned, episode 8 and through 10 are allegedly the real gas year. What did you make of Capshield showing up in the new trailer, the midseason trailer?

I'm absolutely elated and thrilled because I always love, much like the professor. Steve Rogers is always welcome. Steve Rogers and Professor Tolkien are always welcome. What timeline do you think this will be in? Do you think this will be present day? Do you think this will be a memory? I like the idea of this being a will be a willvy flashback because there was that, because Steve Rogers showed up in a Wolverine flashback episode in the original series,

I like the idea of it. Would you want, if Steve Rogers is in this, Be in a flashback or otherwise, whatever. Do you want Chris Evans? Or would you settle for Ross Margaret doing a Chris Evans impression? Or do you want Tom Hiddleston doing a Chris Evans impression? Oh, my God.

You know, I never say no to more Chris Evans, obviously. I will say that one of my... One of the aspects of my experience with what if through two seasons is just getting very accustomed to different voice actors just rendering the animated versions of the characters. So I'm open for, I'm open for anything. Probably won't be crisp,

but it would be fun if it were. All right. What incredible television series. Great program. We'll be back for another bundle at some point. Finale, certainly. If not sooner.

I don't think it could hurt me this badly again, but I'm sure it's going to try. I'll never love again. Rest in peace. I love it so much. You will. And thank you to Mike Wogan for producing this episode and letting us spoil all of X-Men 97. We're so sorry.

Love and devotion to Arjuna Ramgo-Powal who is freshly married and on a mini-man, I think it is. Definitely still watching X-Men, though. He's been texting me about it. I'm confident. Best wishes to our beloved Arjuna. thanks to Jomey at dinner and on the social. We're back next week with an endgame two for Cap and Tony,

hobbes and dragas and d'emill.com. If you have anything you want to say about them, we'll see you next time. Bye!