How I AI - HTML is the new Markdown: How Anthropic engineers are building with Claude Code | Thariq Shihipar

Starting point is 00:00:00 Markdown became a really popular way of interacting with agents, but the plans are so long, I honestly have stopped reading them. And this is honestly a mistake. I think that you still need to be really in the loop. Plans matter. PRDs matter. Speck matters. When you say, okay, Claude can run for eight hours. What you're really saying is Claude can spend 500 bucks. All of us are becoming these compute allocators now, right? And so you have to decide what is worthwhile spending the compute on? People ask me all the time, Claire. You've said product management is dead. What's next? I'm going to say, you're a compute allocator, babe. That's the job now.

Starting point is 00:00:32 HTML is a lot easier to read. And so it's just a richer communication medium between you and plot. Instead of saying, here's a markdown document. It was like, what's the best way to convey this information? So you can actually engage with it and pick something. This is the plan. It's purely in HTML. This is something that I will actually read.

Starting point is 00:00:50 This is not even personal software. It's like micro software on top of micro software. Welcome back to How IAI. I'm Claire Vaux, product leader, and AI obsessive here on a mission to help you build better with these new tools. Recently, I was able to attend Code with Claude Anthropics' first developer conference, and as part of that, I got to spend a little time with Tharik, who works on Claude Code and taught me something that has blown my mind ever since I heard it. HTML is the new markdown.

Starting point is 00:01:24 He's going to show us how to use Claude Code to generate rich artifacts that both you and the agents can enjoy working on. Let's get to it. This episode is brought to you by Soligo. Every company today wants AI to improve how work gets done. The fastest way is building it directly into everyday business processes, automating employee onboarding, keeping customer data accurate, managing orders, and inventory, or resolving finance and operations issues. When AI lives inside the flow of work, it can update records, trigger approvals,

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Starting point is 00:02:27 Ready to operationalize AI, visit Saligo.com slash how IAI. That's C-E-L-I-G-O.com slash how I-A-I. Welcome to How-I-A-I. Thanks for having me. I am so excited to be here at Code with Claude in San Francisco. There's a lot of exciting things that were announced, and we'll get to that in a little bit. But you told me something I was not expecting to hear today, which is you heard it here first. HTML is the new markdown.

Starting point is 00:02:59 Tell us more. I mean, I think markdown became a really popular way of interacting with agents, especially like, you know, Opus 4 and Cloud 3.5, where, you know, they have a plan. And the plan is like how to do this feature and maybe it's like 50 lines of code. And you can edit it, right? Like I think back then you were still like reading all the outputs and editing the markdown and making it right. But, you know, as the agents have gotten longer and longer running when you have Opus 4.5 and 4.7, They're running for like an hour or something.

Starting point is 00:03:28 And the plans are so long, I honestly have stopped reading them. And this is honestly a mistake. Like I think that you still need to be really in the loop. We really need to understand what the agents are doing. But like a thousand line markdown file, you know, I don't even edit them anymore. I just ask Claude to edit them instead. And so I think one of the things that I've been seeing emergently in the CloudCode team is that like they, that we're using HTML files instead. And so HTML is like, the models are.

Starting point is 00:03:56 still very good at it. They have a lot of more context now so you can spend the more extra tokens. And they like, it's a lot easier to read. Like they can have a lot more information. They're a lot of scrollable, more scrollable. And when you're talking about implementation, like, you know, sometimes you see Claude make these like little asky markdown things where you're like, oh, like here's a little, you know, little mock up and it's trying really hard. In HTML, it doesn't need to try nearly as hard. Right. It can actually draw like, things that you can look at. And so it's just a richer communication medium between you and QWT. And before we go further into HTML specifically, I do have to pause because I do have

Starting point is 00:04:35 a vested interest in this. Sure. Which is you are saying for the people who are not listening, listen up. Yes. Plans matter. PRDs matter. Speck matters. Even as these models get more intelligent, you still feel like that's a really important part of the process. Oh, 100%. Yeah. I think that you know, everyone has different views on how it'll go. But I think that this will just forever be the thing because when you say, okay, Claude can run for eight hours. What you're really saying is Claude can spend like 500 bucks. You know what I mean? And so if you're spending 500 bucks or like, I think all of us are becoming these compute

Starting point is 00:05:08 allocators now, right? And so you have to decide like what is worthwhile spending the compute on. Yep. And I think that is happens in the spec in planning phase, right? You have to really understand like what do you want? And sometimes you don't know. Sometimes you have to like pull it out of yourself by chatting with Clark. Sometimes you have like unknown unknowns you need to figure out.

Starting point is 00:05:29 But yeah, I think this is like the whole thing now is just like really getting in sync with cloud about what's building. I love what you said because people ask me all the time, Claire, you said product management is dead. What's next? I'm going to say you're a compute allocator, babe. Like that's the job now. You're still doing the same thing though. You're writing documents to decide whether or not something else should do do work in the shape of that work. Okay.

Starting point is 00:05:52 So you've convinced me HTML is the future. And I like how you said this. It's not that it is necessarily harder or easier for the agents to read. They're very smart. They can read all sorts of code. But in fact, what you're finding is that HTML makes it easier for you to engage with the content, which then up levels the quality overall because you're not, your eyes aren't crossing looking at a bunch of raw markdown and being like, whatever, it's probably

Starting point is 00:06:20 good. Instead, you're actually getting pulled into the spec or the document or the plan. and then interacting it with a way that upgrades the quality and then you can ultimately build something better. Yeah, that's right. Okay, so you're building something with the agent so the agent can manage you. You know, I'm not sure if manage me is the right word exactly, but, you know, I just, I care a lot about being in sync with the agent.

Starting point is 00:06:41 This is sort of like the features that I built in CloudCode have been like that, you know, like how can I get to know you better? So, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. Well, we have, we have CloudCode up. So let's walk through how that works. Yeah, so I did like a little, bit before we started. And so I like to talk with Claude just as a human. And like I always start

Starting point is 00:07:01 with brainstorming. It's so much easier to brainstorm once you like, you know, once you have a partner. So I was literally like, look, I'm on a Clairvro podcast. I want to do a demo, you know, and can you brainstorm some ideas in an HTML file, right? And this is literally the prompt I gave it. Right. Like there's not, it's not complicated. And so here you can see the eight visual demos that it made for me. And it has these little mockups as well, right? So like PRD to working prototype, right? Like it searched you up, right? You thought that with a web search, right? Whiteboard sketch to working UI, which I thought was really cool. This is such a cute, like, little thing. It is extremely cute. And I, it's what's really funny is just this morning a chat purity user message me. And they're like, I love the mockups in chat purity. And I'm like, what in the world? What are you, what are you talking about? Because I have something very similar to this. in code review right now and haven't shipped it and I'm like, did I act

Starting point is 00:07:58 did Claude accidentally do this? And it was that like cute little asky wire frame. So this is definitely the dream. But not even but now you're telling me I'm going to build it. So it's giving you

Starting point is 00:08:13 basically instead of saying here's a markdown document of kind of like what you should talk to clear about and some descriptions of things you could do. instead it was like, what's the best way to convey this information? So you can actually engage with it and pick something. And it used HTML to make this visual guide of a potential agenda or a set of demos.

Starting point is 00:08:37 And you just get like a much richer expression. Yeah, exactly. Like I think like another like for brainstorming, one of my like sort of rules of thumb is that I'm not going to read a longer output than the screen on cloud code. You know, so like if I if you gave me eight ideas, I'm just not going to see all of them. But with HTML, I'm definitely, I scroll through all of these, you know. And yeah, the diagram just make it so much more evocative for me to like sort of understand what's happening, right? The slash command starter pack, five code of feature flag dashboard. Yeah, PRD diet.

Starting point is 00:09:11 And the one I ended up liking the most was the CSV to interactive dashboards. We love a dashboard. I used to say when I was in enterprise software, I guess I still am in enterprise software. Dashboards equals dollars. So I like this one. Yes. Okay. So you use CloudCode.

Starting point is 00:09:26 You said, brainstorm, but brainstorm in HTML. Give me a couple things that I can talk about. It gave you eight ideas, including visuals and this lovely like why her, what the visual is. And then I like the risk. It's like it could go sideways as all good devos can. Yeah. And so you're going to pick one. And then you're going to show us how you pull this through to a full plan on this idea.

Starting point is 00:09:50 That's right. Yeah. So I think what I like about. HTML is like really, Cloud really understands this. And so my next prompt here was really like, okay, I asked it to make some mockups in the follow up prompt. And then I was like, I asked it to interview me about number eight, right? And so this is something that like, you know, similar to specs and PRD is right.

Starting point is 00:10:09 Like finding out my unknown unknowns, what do I want it to do? I answered a bunch of questions. And now I'm like, okay, create an HTML file as a plan that helps me visualize what the implementation plan is, include excerpts. mockups, code, whatever is needed to give me maximum context, right? And so then it made me this HTML file here. Yeah, you can see now this is the plan, but it's purely in HTML. It's got like, it started scripting out the podcast itself, which, you know, maybe I didn't need all of that.

Starting point is 00:10:42 But like, you know, we're making a skill. And so it, you know, fleshed out the file system. It gave me like an excerpt of the skill.mdmd.md. It put together like a mood board as well, some example components, some of the logic here. Yeah, insights and templates, helper scripts, right, and like helping me get a sense of like, what's the important things for me to know here. Yeah, this is something that like I will actually read, you know? Yeah. And I want to go back to Claude code, really.

Starting point is 00:11:18 quickly if you don't mind, which is, you know, people are going to ask, how did it know exactly what to put into the spec? And I just, I want to go back to your prompt was very simple. And it's so funny. I've done, I don't know, 75 of these how I AI episodes and they get incredible outputs. And everybody's prompts like make the thing. Hopefully it's good. Yeah. Kind of nice. And so I love that this prompt is literally just create an HTML file with a plan, help me visualize. You misspelled excerpts. I did. And you're like excerpts, mockups, code, et cetera, whatever is needed.

Starting point is 00:11:54 Yeah. And so I do want to encourage people, you know, don't stress so much about what should go in the thing. And in fact, it might change initiative to initiative. It might be slightly different to engage you with the work. But like identifying what you want to get. And then letting the model do what it needs to do will do a very high quality job. Yeah. I think with prompting, it's like this fine balance of like, I think you want to give enough information that you get what you want, but you don't want to over constrain clot.

Starting point is 00:12:27 Yeah. You know, and so sometimes when I see people with a lot of like overbuilt skills kind of like, you know, you're an expert planner or something, right? Like that is usually like outsourcing too much and constraining it. Yeah. But in this case, for example, like I really did want it to make sure it gave me code excerpts. And I wasn't sure if I did whether it would do that, you know? But this was really important. But then I always need to give Claude an out.

Starting point is 00:12:53 You know, I always needed to be like, okay, like you asked me for this, but, you know, like there's something else I want to give you. And so whatever is needed to give me maximum context is like my way of saying like, hey, Cloud, like, I trust you here. I want to just like be in the loop with you. Yeah. I love what you say, which is I trust you because my new ending prompt is not make no mistakes. Love make no mistakes. But that's not it. I literally like, I believe.

Starting point is 00:13:18 in you and trust you, exclamation, exclamation. I'm like, truly, I know you are capable and I believe in you to make these decisions. And so I think leaving that open-ended, sort of like, whatever you got to do, I trust your judgment. At least it makes me feel like I get better outcomes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've loved the like recent twist on this where it's like make mistakes, Claude, you know, like fall in love, you know, like, you know, make some bad decisions. We need more happenstance in our life. Okay. So you built this thing.

Starting point is 00:13:49 Another thing that I want to walk people through if you pull up the plan. Yes. Because I think about this a lot. And I get people that ask me this a lot, which is like, what's the future of the PRD? What's the future of the tech spec? Are these things separate? Are they together? And I think what's nice is they, whatever you want, right?

Starting point is 00:14:08 And whatever you want for the audience. So you are a single builder in the instance of this demo. You want it all in one piece. You want the product idea. You want the, I guess you want a 12-minute walkthrough of how you're going to demo it. You want code snippets. You want style guide. You want that all in one thing because this is a self-contained little project that's easier to have it all in once.

Starting point is 00:14:30 But what I can imagine in larger organizations is like put the PRD in one tab and put the tech spec in the second tab because maybe separate people would be reviewing that information. And so you can really kind of like craft a ideal spec package to whatever you want with HTML in a way that markdown is a little bit more constrained. It has to either be like one megafile or like separate files. And I think this is just nicer from that perspective. Yeah, I think that's right. You have a lot more interactivity. I haven't asked it to make tabs here or something, but you can easily do that. It's like all the same to Claude, right?

Starting point is 00:15:05 Yeah. I think one of the things on like the specs and PRDs is like I think you're trying to find like, like the boundary of like what you need to know with Claude. And for example, if you're doing something very technical, I like to do the type interfaces. So this is like, you know, just like understanding what the types are so that I don't often care about the actual implementation of it. I'm just like, okay, like the types help me understand what we're building. And then I might edit those, right?

Starting point is 00:15:31 And that's like the boundary I want to interface that. And yeah, like across the problem, right, like from, yeah, the arc of the podcast to to mockups, where do you want to interface? Yeah, one other thing on this types is sort of an important input is I think types are really great and then really a validation criteria and set of tests or other ways to see if you can get what you intended to get. And I know you all like just announced outcomes, which is really focused on this like kind of goal oriented.

Starting point is 00:16:03 You need to achieve this thing, do whatever you need to do. And I think that is a piece that most product managers. at least are not used to writing, like the technical success criteria of a feature and then how to test your way into it. I do those two things as well. I was like, I care about the data model and the shape, the pipes, like what's going in. And then this is how you would test that you did it correctly. And with those two bookends, you can like everything in the middle is kind of gravy. So that's what I think about. I think that's right. We could have a whole podcast on testing, I think. Let's do it. Okay, round two. We're going to get it scheduled. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:40 My tagline there is like, verification is not testing. Yeah. And so I think there's a lot of like, there used to be like unit test and things like that. But now, yeah, verification can be like a rubric like with managed agents and outcomes. It can be like have cloud record a video of what it did for you, you know. So there's a lot of depth there. Yeah. I keep a set of like synthetic data and I like run a CLI through this synthetic data.

Starting point is 00:17:06 Because I'm like, these are all the things that have broken in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you get better at resolving these broken things, then we have moved forward. So I think there's just a lot of interesting verification and testing mechanisms you can do now. We are going to, part two. Pressure him to do it in the comments. Please, please tell us. This episode is brought to you by Persona.

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Starting point is 00:18:35 gap between machine writable and readable, human writable and readable, at a very low level of sophistication, right? As soon as you understand, okay, these like hash signs, mean headers, you're good to go on Markdown. Yes. How, like, I want to fix this. How do I, how do I touch this? How do I edit this?

Starting point is 00:18:53 Yeah, yeah. So I think that this is like a great point, right? And I think one thing I felt with Markdown was that one, because I'd stopped reading them, I'd stopped editing them as well, you know? And so I would end up asking. asking Claude to edit them. And so like that is like the most basic form is just to be like, hey, Claude, I didn't like this part of the plan.

Starting point is 00:19:12 Can you edit it? But let's say you want to get really in the loop, right? And like really get in depth with a, Claude can also do that for you. So the next prompt I had, and I forgot if it was here, it was here, okay. I want to create an edible HTML artifact to help me define the decision rules. So these are the rules that it's defined here on like,

Starting point is 00:19:30 okay, how do you take data and turn it into, you know, a visualization? And I think some of these are kind of arbitrary. And so I asked it like, you know, to have creating HTML artifact. I don't like the ones we have right now. Make this a custom UI that helps me with structure, but give me flexibility, design the ideal interface for this problem. I really wasn't quite sure what it would give me. And this is one of the fun parts of HTML2.

Starting point is 00:19:53 It's just like, I just want to see what Cloud like cooks up here. And yeah, this was what it gave me, right? So it's like my own beautiful custom interface. I can sort of like, you know, edit any of these fields. I can, you know, like hide them. I can copy. I can, you know, add new fields here. And it gives me a markdown to copy back.

Starting point is 00:20:18 And so once I'm like, okay, I have this, I can copy back into the output. Okay, I want to pause because people are going to totally miss what you just did. So I'm going to repeat it, which is you have this HTML plan. Yep. And there's a section in the HTML plan. that is a pretty like specific table of rendering and visualization rules per data type that you could predict would be in a CSV. Yep. And you're like, I don't like it.

Starting point is 00:20:44 No. And instead of going back into Claude Code and being like, I don't like it, let's go back and forth and edit it in like the terminal. Yep. You said there's probably a way for me to interact with this particular problem that's ideal from a user perspective. So basically build a throwaway UI. Yes. For this very, it's like, this is not even personal software. This is like sub, it's like micro software on top of micro software, which is like, I've made this very personalized plan.

Starting point is 00:21:14 And then I'm taking a module in the personalized plan and zooming into it using a very custom UI. Yes. That's going to engage me with the content to get to a higher quality. I also like that it's like kind of gamified. It's like very consumery. Yeah, yeah. Very consumery. said in the prompt, give me the ideal UI for this to like help me engage with this.

Starting point is 00:21:37 You built this. Then you get the data right. And then you're just going to bop it back into the into the file. Yeah, exactly. So fun. Is this how you're building now? Actually, it is. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:48 And do you have any challenges with like how are you passing this around from a collaboration perspective or is it just like this is the way a single threaded product or engineering leader can get something done? It's you're engaging with yourself and with the model. And so you feel like you can own things full stack. Or do you hit friction points with collaboration? Like when somebody needs to give input on this. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:09 Or you want input. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think on the scale of an implementation plan, it's way better. Yeah. And I think that this is, because you just like can upload it to like, you know, whatever, AWS or something. And then you just share the link around. And so definitely the like likelihood of like, I don't know, cat or Boris.

Starting point is 00:22:30 like reading this is like a hundred times better right and so I think that really helps me like present this I also just you know somewhat related I use it a lot in like collaborating overall so for example you know I report to cat and so like every week I send her a weekly status update in HTML of everything I've done I get caught to read my Slack and just like create this message and and like she actually gets to read it and I don't have to spend that much time on it you know Oh, my gosh. New internal competition is showing up. It's not just who is building the best product.

Starting point is 00:23:07 It's who's building the best product that goes into building the best product. And, like, who is building the best product to represent themselves to the manager? But, I mean, I think why you do that is not artificially for fun. It is that it is just a much more effective way to communicate across a company is with content that is engaging. and at the right level of detail and consumable, and we're all pretty good at reading websites. Yeah, exactly. I think this is like, when I think of like abundance, you know,

Starting point is 00:23:39 and like, you know, we talk about like Javon's offer software, like, oh, like software gets cheaper. What do you do? I'd say like the amount of tokens I produce that go into production code. Yep. Like extremely small. It's like 1% or something, you know, but like I'm generating so many more tokens like this.

Starting point is 00:23:54 Like my dashboards, my custom interfaces, like really trying to get a sense of like, like what do I want to do? And yeah, it's like I have everything I'm interacting with is so beautiful. And I think my hope is that it also like translates into what I produce in the end, right? It's like more in the loop. It's more beautiful. It's more like, you know, like what me and Cloud working together. Yeah. And I like this because I've been in the product game for quite some, some time, many decades. And people used to get so wrapped around the axle on like what's our source of truth for specs and what's our source of truth for PRD. And, you know, is all this information in some centralized place that we can all access it? And is it all in the same format? Is it all on the same template? And there were these arbitrary rules because creating these content was relatively expensive. Consuming it was certainly expensive. Finding it was really hard. And I think when all of that cost goes to like functionally zero, although we're all paying her. I call them our quad chits. We're paying our clod chits. But you can kind of put stuff where,

Starting point is 00:24:58 wherever in whatever format because we know these models are very good at using tools to discover the context that they need. And so I do think there's this fun moment where you can really up, you like up level the things that you should care about, which is like what is the content of the plan? Is it a good idea? Do we feel like it's going to be executed well? As opposed to like, I can't put a interactive markdown document in our, you know, blessed document repository. And so I have to have like another asset somewhere else. And so I just, I like this idea of just in time documentation, very, very high quality, some throwaway software, which is nice. Like it's cheap. Yeah. So you can toss it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I like, you know, the executive means like, what if we can't ever find

Starting point is 00:25:42 this again? I'm like, oh, Claude, Clod can find it for us. It's fine. Definitely. And then do you feel like this results in better products? Like, would you, how would you build off of this? Would you say, plans good, let's go. Yeah, I think so I didn't hit implement on this, but yeah, I would basically use this as an artifact. And so I would clear context and I would say like, here's a plan. You know, implement it. You could also have like, you can also use this as a source of checking the truth, right? And so again, a benefit of HTML is like I've got a little mock up here as well.

Starting point is 00:26:20 So right, I can have the verification aid or I can have. of the verification agent check, like, hey, what did I intend to do? Yeah. Right? And what actually came out in the output, right? So, yeah, I think this is like really, uh, helps cloud being more in the loop. Um, I've got some other examples of like plans here that we can. Let's see it.

Starting point is 00:26:38 Yeah, this is like a post I'm working on. So like, uh, it's just like different ways I'm, I'm using, uh, cloud code or sorry, using HTML with cloud code. And one of my favorites is this living design system. And so it's this idea that like, You know, oftentimes when I am making, let's say, a new app in the Anthropic design system, right? Like, Cloud design does this very well. You link a GitHub repo and you, like, it will extract the design system from it.

Starting point is 00:27:08 Yeah. Right. And, yeah, I saw Nate did that. I'm like, oh, so smart. What this does is, like, basically, I have an HTML file that represents my design system. Yep. You can see the colors here. Typography, spacing, radius.

Starting point is 00:27:23 core components, right? It's a fairly small one. But once I have this, I can basically start passing this around. So I go to a new project. I'm like, design system.html, right? Instead of like design.md or something.

Starting point is 00:27:36 And it's got this like compressed understanding. And you can literally just point pod at a folder in your thing and be like, hey, find a design system here, create an HTML artifact and pass it around. I love this. I do this as well. I will give you my like,

Starting point is 00:27:53 advanced mode version of this, which is I use Claude Design. I pull in both my marketing site repo and my app repo, which have like some expressions of the same design system in. I say make the design system. Then I actually ask it to make a design system or a style guide, but I want it at the component level. And so we have like colors and all this stuff, but we also have components because there's some tweaks in how you want the design system implemented in particular components. And then I drop that into the repo and then, yes, I say exactly this. Reference the design system. The advanced thing that I do that I think is really useful for people who have to interface with marketers is I have to interface with marketers is I have a, like what I call a, God, what do I call it?

Starting point is 00:28:39 It's like a component visualization page, which is like the 25 components of our app in action and interactable in a page. so a marketer can go in and like get the component in the form factor. It needs to look quote unquote real. Yes. And then you can download a transparent PNG and like drop it in a deck or drop it in a video. And I know, or we use that as a source of truth for like remotion videos. And so I love this idea of like this living design system and this living design repository. It's great for code, but it's also great for marketers,

Starting point is 00:29:21 designers because one of the hardest things is is getting versions of your app that look real. Yeah. And you can use HTML to do that. Yeah, exactly. I think there's also something here around like component variations, which I thought was fun where it's like, yeah, like you create a component you want to see like, oh, like, what if I change a padding or what if I change the border, you know, solid, things like that. Like these are like a pretty simple like, you know, a way of just playing with this.

Starting point is 00:29:50 This is also Claude Design-like, right? Like where you create these little components or these little knobs and sliders. But yeah, you can imagine, one, this is like the abstract of like, oh, like, what's the interface for this thing that you're trying to do and how can you visualize it? And yeah, there's not a trade-off between like being nice, pretty for you and understand being nice for Claude. You know, like they're really the same, right? And you're making me think of one thing that I love in Claude Design that I think you could bring into your plans. Again, it's one of these features that like sounds truly cuckoo bananas to build, but is totally possible and easy to do, which is I love in Claude Design. Once you have your

Starting point is 00:30:29 design going, you can like comment, you can circle things. And there's no reason you can't do that in a plan. Right. I was like, oh, how would you interact with this? It's like, oh, just build an arbitrary like comment thing into it and say people are going to leave comments on any aspect of this. And when they do, and then they submit like fix, it fixes the core thing. And so I think people getting really creative with what interaction models you can do between content and code is really fun. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you could easily imagine that you did this plan as like a, like almost a lightweight figma dashboard or something where you just ask it to like, hey, make a canvas, make a bunch of things.

Starting point is 00:31:08 Yeah. Let me comment on it and then give me a place to copy out my comments into something that I can paste back into cloud code. Yeah. And we did an episode recently with the Stripe team. And they built their own vibe coding platform. And they said what they loved about it, which I think really applies here, is they have just a particular way they want to review products. And they have a particular way they want to run design review and a particular way they want to run spec review. And by building it in HTML, they can actually shape the tool to how they want the team to run, which I think is really compelling to people.

Starting point is 00:31:42 I love this. So just to wrap for people, pull up quad code, ask it to make you. give you some ideas, brainstorm ideas, but brainstorm them in HTML. That's right. Pick an idea. Yep. Plan it in HTML. Pick a part of that idea you don't like.

Starting point is 00:31:59 Have it create a micro app to edit in HTML. And then some like bonus things is use cloud design, make a design system, but not only that, use HTML to encode that design system in your repo so it can be referenced at any time. Design.m.m.m.m.m.D.m.D.Longleyive design.Ht.m. Did I get it right. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. I'm pretty good. Okay. Well, this was so fun. Before we get you out of here, back to this amazing event, a couple lightning round questions. One, I have to, I ask everybody. There's three tabs in Claude desktop app. Yeah. One is your favorite tab? It's got to be code. Yeah. I love the team as well. I'm really close friends with them. Yeah. Okay. So, so code. I thought it would be on brand. Okay. Second thing, we were at this amazing event. What is the thing that you're most excited? about or that you saw or heard today. I think obviously we had a big announcement at the start of the day, our partnership with SpaceX, I bring them more compute online.

Starting point is 00:32:55 I think, yeah, I'm excited for, you know, we also said we are thinking about orbital data centers. I love it. Yeah, you know, incredibly sci-fi. But could, you know, I could actually happen. So, yeah. I know. We were watching this moon mission with my kids who are like kind of elementary school.

Starting point is 00:33:15 And I'm like, would you want to work in the moon mind? Would you want to work in the moon minds? Because I think it's coming. Yeah, orbital. That'll be next year's demo. You and I will come back and we'll do this. We'll do HTML. We'll do testing and then lunar data modules.

Starting point is 00:33:31 That's right. Perfect. Okay. And then my last question, very important. I love that you just talk to Claude like a person. Yeah. When Claude is not listening, not giving you what you want. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:43 What's your prompting technique? Do you yell? No one in ethropic yells. That has been my experience so far. So you'd be the first to admit it. Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely don't. I think that, like, there are a couple things there. I do sometimes message people and I'm like, hey, like, it seems like you have a bug.

Starting point is 00:33:57 Can you send me your transcript? And they're like, it's not the best side of me. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that like, yeah, I don't, I don't yell like Claude. I think that like we've also done some interesting research recently about like emotions and in Claude and just sort of like this idea that like once you, when you say things with a certain emotional charge, it also like activated. different features inside of Cloud code. I don't think anyone's done this like A, B test of like which, like, you know, if you're mean to Claude, is it better than without it or not?

Starting point is 00:34:26 But I'm just like, let's err on the side of like, you know, just not or like, what's the thing I'd prefer to exist, you know? And I'd prefer if you're like nice and, you know, friendly to Cloud that you got better output. So. Yeah. All I've seen is if you store a border on Stern to any of these models, their reasoning gets really sad.

Starting point is 00:34:44 It's like, oh, the user is right to be so disson. I'm like, oh, I don't want to read that. I don't want to see that. Yeah. Thinking traces are tough. I usually give them all some privacy. I'm like, I'm not going to read the thinking traces.

Starting point is 00:34:57 Yeah. I had somebody else on. I feel like it was Hillary who was like, just like an employee, how you get your work done is none of my business. I don't even want to know. We just collapse those things. Well, this has been so fun. Thank you for showing us the way. Where can we find you and how can we be helpful?

Starting point is 00:35:12 Extremely online at X. Yeah. I'm at TRQ 212. and yeah, just tag me if you have anything with Cloudicode. I'm happy to help. Perfect. I am living proof. This man is happy to help.

Starting point is 00:35:25 Well, thank you for joining how I. Right. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this show, please like and subscribe here on YouTube or even better, leave us a comment with your thoughts. You can also find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

Starting point is 00:35:44 Please consider leaving us a rating and review. which will help others find the show. You can see all our episodes and learn more about the show at how IAIIPod.com. See you next time.

How I AI - HTML is the new Markdown: How Anthropic engineers are building with Claude Code | Thariq Shihipar

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