How I Built This with Guy Raz - Advice Line with Andrew Abraham of Orgain

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Orgain founder and CEO Andrew Abraham joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders about strategically positioning their products.  Today we meet Brynn, who’s tackling cavities and dental anxiety with an electric flosser. Then Turner, a radiologist mixing up craft cocktails for the golf course. And Catherine, whose pasta sauces and dressings help ease the weeknight dinner juggle. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [e-mail] or call 1-800-433-1298.And check out Orgain’s founding story from Andrew’s first appearance on the show in 2023. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Joining me this week is Andrew Abraham. He's the founder of the Organic Nutritional Shake Company Organ. Andrew, welcome back to the show. Thank you, guys. It's a pleasure to be here. So great having you. You were last on the show, not too long ago, I think back in August of 2023. It's an awesome story, of course, of Orgaine.

And that story starts when you were a teenager. You were diagnosed with cancer. You were undergoing chemotherapy. Just a harrowing story. You lost so much weight that your doctors were basically giving you nutritional shakes and sure. And they did help you gain weight, but they really made you feel. bad, you know, bloating and pain and they weren't very healthy. So you thought, hey, I can make something better. Eventually, you did and you went on to build a national brand and you did this

while you were a full-time medical student and resident. That's correct. Yeah. So that was how it started and how it's come to fruition. And it's been a very humbling journey all the way through. All right. Fast forward, of course, to today. Nestle now owns a stake in Oregon. But you are still the CEO, you're still very much involved in the day-to-day business. How has your day-to-day changed since, you know, when you were the one managing the customer service line? Yeah, it's evolved quite a bit, Guy, but it's been a wonderful experience, actually, that the brand has been growing by leaps and bounds. Nestle is expanding the brand internationally, and the brand continues to make progress in a variety of different channels. We launched 28

products last year. I'm still in the day-to-day, to your point, and still working with the team very, very closely and really enjoying every minute of it. It's been awesome. And you've got product lines for kids and for grownups. I mean, I know, you know, my kids have done those kids protein shakes and with the monkey on it, right? Yeah, the monkey milk, yes. Yeah, the monkey milk. One of the things that I think brings a lot of legitimacy and credibility to your brand is that you're a doctor. You're an MD. Not a practicing doctor anymore, but because you quit the profession. After your brand got into Whole Foods, why is that?

move, but, you know, there's a lot of, there are a lot of claims in the health and wellness space that are sometimes just junk. You know that. You see it on, on Instagram and stuff. How do you, like, how do you think founders of health and wellness brands need to be thinking about communicating the science behind their products? I think the simpler, the better, right? I think now more than ever, to your point, you're seeing millions of claims online, right? products that change your life in these 10 ways. And the truth is, people just want it to be credible and they want it to be simple, and they want to incorporate it in their diet and their daily basis without sacrificing. So when we make a product, we want it to be this amazing plant-based product,

but we don't want you to sacrifice on taste. This is how you incorporate it into your day. This is how you get your protein. We try to keep it very simple. I do something called the kid test guy, and the kid test is very simple. If you can't explain your product to a 10-year-old kid and he fully understands what it is in a matter of seconds, then you need to refine your strategy a little bit. I love it. The kid test. Yeah. That's really smart, actually. All right, Andrew, we have some callers waiting to get some help with their businesses. Hopefully, we can help them. Are you ready to take some calls? Absolutely. I'd love to. Let's do it. Okay. All right, caller number one. I think it's Bryn. Bryn, are you there with us? Hi. Hello. Welcome, Bryn.

tell us your name, tell us where you're calling from, and the name of your business. Awesome. So my name is Bryn Snyder. I'm from Spokane, Washington. I'm the co-founder and CEO of the Slate Electric Flosser. It is the first world three-and-one device that helps stimulate your gums and make flossing easy and effective. And tell us the question you brought for us. Okay. So my other co-founder is my husband Danny Snyder, who's a dentist. And sometimes I think we focus too much on the educational part because we really care about that. We want our consumers to know why they need to floss. But we know that talking to our consumers on their level is really important. And so I was going to ask, what did you do to find the most important way to connect with your consumers? Got it. Okay. We're going to get to your question. I'm going to start.

start with a full disclosure, because very rarely does this happen. But I use this product, Andrew. I actually use the slate flosser. It's a small business. I love that. And I have one. And I replace the flosser tips every week. And I use it.

Their teeth are amazing. Look at my teeth. They're pretty good, right? I mean, this is basically, Bryn, it's like a vibrating flosser, right? It's like a sonic care kind of vibration. but with floss at the end, tell us how you guys even came up with this thing. Yeah, so Danny went to dental school in 2015, and he started seeing patients, and they had so much dental anxiety. Yeah.

And he was like, how do I get them to enjoy the dentist? And I'm like, I love going to the dentist, but it was because I never had a cavity before. And so. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay, Bryn. I got them at later on, but.

I was like, what could we do? And he said, if I could just get patients to floss, then they wouldn't have gum disease or cavities. And floss picks exist. They're the easier way, but no one is stimulating their gums. And so there's actually patients we have that use floss picks and they go to the appointment and the hygienist will say, are you flossing? And they're like, yeah. And they're like, well, you're not doing it effectively. So Dr. Schneider was like, I have to make a product that makes flossing so easy that people do it and then so effective that it stimulates their gums and hygienists are able to see a difference.

And so that's what he came up with. And you're right. For a lot of people, flossing is a pain. It's annoying. But Andrew, you can speak to this. Like, we know that there's a connection between certain diseases and bad oral hygiene, right? Yeah. I mean, for sure. And I think it goes well beyond oral health today, right, Bryn? I mean, a lot of people think it's just for gum health, for tooth health. But really now we're seeing that there's studies around heart disease, right, related to your oral health. Even Alzheimer's. Brain Health. I just read a study about that guy. It's a very good point. So I think that education piece becomes more and more important because you're on a trend now of longevity, not just oral health, right?

Yeah, we've noticed that that's actually the biggest converter for people that care is seeing, like, if you don't want dementia when you're 80, floss, because it's like a lot of things are connected to the oral microbiome that's in your mouth. All right. So you have this product, and it's, as I say, it's like a little sort of a mini electric toothbrush size with a little floss band. at the top, and these little floss heads are replaceable. You replace them every couple of days, and you just hold them between your teeth, and it does all the work, right? It just vibrates, basically. Yes, so we designed it to have 12,000 sonic vibrations, but the thing that makes our product super special is actually on the two sides of the floss are these gum sweeps that are our patented part, and they go into what Dennis call the embrasure area where your gums and your teeth touch,

your toothbrush doesn't touch that area. And so the only way for it to be stimulated is through flossing. Bryn, listen, you have me sold on this. I'm going to buy one immediately right after this. But then the question is, how do we take this conversation that we have and turn it into an ad that's super compelling, right? You can't turn this into an ad. This cannot be an ad. This is not an ad.

Just to be clear. Not this necessarily. I'm talking about all the wonderful things Bryn is saying and all the things we talked about. Like, how do you make it digest? and easy for a consumer. And I think that's the jump we have to make, right? Yeah, it's been exciting because we have been able to really grow. Like, we started in November of 2022. And we were able to do over a million dollars in sales last year because we saw people care about flossing. But we are such a little company. It's like, how do we get it

out there? Brin, a couple quick questions. You guys have raised some, you raise some money from friends and family to start this because you need money to manufacture these, right? Right. And how much did you guys raise in total? We raised $800,000. All right. And that is, and so far, you're okay. You don't need to do another fundraise. Right now, you're, you can still, based on sales and the money you raised, you can operate this business relatively efficiently. Yes. So it's, unless we want to do major, huge growth, we have the funds we need to grow at the projections we have. And how are you marketing this? I mean, how are you getting the word out to, you know, how, I mean, are you guys taking ads out?

Are you doing social media? Where are you marketing this thing? Yeah, so we do a whole host of things. So we have two kind of sides of slate. We have our B2B, which is our dental focus. And then we have our D to C focus. And in D to C, we do meta, Google ads. And then we also do giveaways and partnerships with other companies that are interested in doing that.

And then we try to work with a lot of dental influencers. So we know if we send it to a dental influencer and they like the product, then they typically will share it because they want people to floss. Like all dentists want their patients to floss. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And how are you, how are, what kind of returns are you seeing on, on those social media ads?

Are they good, bad, medium mixed? So it depends on the influencer. But for meta, during Q4, we had phenomenal results. We were able to have like 4.5x. But now that we're back at a normal time of year, we're between 2.5 and 3x on our ads. And Bryn, what's the split between B2B and online, the percentages? So 90% of our stuff is direct to consumers because it's a little bit easier to reach them. We do do some CE courses with some awesome dentists who love our product.

They share in their continuing education courses. And we do attend four trade shows a year. And Bryn, one of the questions I have for you is about competition because there are competing products out there. They're different. They may not be as well made or well designed, but they are out there. How do you, you know, and some of these competitors might be better funded. And so my question to you is, is there a world where you guys say, okay, we're going to, in exchange for more funding, we're going to give up some of our ownership here? Yeah. So if we got the right partner who could help us, we would totally be excited about that. Because for us, we'd rather grow and develop our company. Like the toothbrush industry is a $4 billion dollar industry. And the water flosser industry is $1.2 billion. And we believe our product is unique.

and we think better than the water flosser because if you went through a car wash and it just sprayed your car, it doesn't remove the little bugs, right? So we consider that to be the same as our product. If you're using a water flosser, we're so happy. We're just like, we want you to floss. But we believe that our product, because of the string and it's woven, it doesn't have, it actually goes and it grabs the plaque off the side of the tooth. And then our gum sweeps and bristles go in and they remove the plaque. And so it's like scrubbing the side of your car. So Andrew, to the idea you had earlier, how does Bryn explain this quickly to a 10-year-old?

Because I think anyone listening is like, okay, I'm convinced I want healthier gums. But we've talked about this for several minutes and Bryn can't talk to every single person. So how do you, what are some thoughts about how she could do this? Yeah, as Bryn was talking, I have some thoughts. You know, and I think to your point, Bryn, how do we talk to the consumer on their level? And the most important thing I've learned is that you have to put yourself in your customer's shoes, right? And I've read that less than 50% of the U.S. floss their teeth. And it's because it's a chore, right?

So the way I like to look at it is simplify it. Like the same way I don't like to wash dishes after dinner. but there's this dishwasher that you just put it in. You guys are the equivalent of a dishwasher, meaning you've made a chore that's been very difficult now super, super easy. And by the way, it prevents heart disease and you cite studies and brain health issues and things like that. But I think the biggest thing is that you have now created something

that eliminates a chore and improves your quality of life and your longevity. And I think making that analogy and having that little video or whatever it's going to be is going to be the difference between having a good company and a great company. Yeah, I agree. To this point of making it easy to floss. I want to see, what I want to see is a little bit more storytelling in your ads. I mean, I'm looking at your website, and I don't know how you're putting ads out, but I feel like there needs to be better storytelling, funny storytelling.

I think of like, you know, we had liquid death on the show a couple months ago, and they basically took Mountain Springwater and started associated with death, which seems so weird. But because it was so weird, that company just raised at a $1.4 billion valuation, and it's had incredible success in a category dominated by companies like Nestle and Coca-Cola, right?

That liquid death is actually broken through. So I want to see, you know, maybe Danny's got to be in some of these ads. Maybe quirky ads, like, you know, I don't know, maybe like angels come down from, the heavens and you hear the you know you hear like a hallelujah playing or something like that i don't know i'm just spitballing here but something you know i agree i mean i think making it fun approachable and and really emphasizing the fact that you've solved a problem right this problem has been around for a long

time a lot of people don't floss because they hate it and you've now solved it so i think having a fun approachable super easy ad that illustrates that and conveys it and i think you could get really creative with this and you should push the boundaries a little bit i think it it would go a very long ways. In 15 seconds, capture me and make me want to buy the product. So I have a question. So we are like a higher end product. To use our product on a daily basis, it only costs $4 a month, but it has an initial cost of $799.99. And so I get sometimes nervous to do funny things because, or maybe that's just a personality problem. No, I think you got to test them. Like look, Sonacare and these expensive toothbrushes,

It's a very expensive upfront investment, but those guys are working with a different checking account, right? Yeah, they have a big checking account. So in order to counterbalance that, you do have to think outside of the box. And by the way, you try something and you fail, that's okay. But I think the failure is not trying. And I think once you try and you learn, you'll be able to adjust accordingly. There's something else, I wonder, which is, do you offer a refund, a full refund if you don't like it for any reason? Yeah, so a 30-day money-back guarantee.

So maybe you should put that also at the top of your site or where people come to you just so they know that it's risk-free. I mean, of course, you don't want a bunch of people returning them, but you're going to take a risk that maybe 5% or 2% will return it, but most won't. What we've learned is our return rate is like less than 1%. And I think it's because when people use our product, they are like, oh, this really feels good. I feel like I just went to the hygienist. Yeah. But you got to get them to take the risk. And if they don't know that right off the bat, they may not even order it.

So I would suggest that you sort of bring that out a bit more to the fore. Awesome. Yeah. And I would even take it a step further and say since the return rate is so low, that means people try it and love it. You may want to include some kind of referral program, meaning like refer a friend, refer a family member. If I try this and I get my wife and my kids to buy it, now instead of one, you have four. And you've given me a $20 discount on three. And the lifetime value of that person comes back very quickly because they're buying the

refills, right? So I would say lean in to Guy's point on the returns, but even more so, I would say, add on incentives to kind of catapult your sales. Yeah, a free pack of refills when you send two referrals, three referrals, our way, or whatever. That's right. I love that. Bryn Snyder of Slate Floser, congrats on this product.

Good luck. And yeah, we're going to be, I'm going to be using it. So I'll give you my feedback. I will too. Thank you, Brian. Awesome. Thank you so much. I love feedback.

Great. Thanks, Brian. Thanks so much. I don't know about you, Andrew, but I seriously, I do feel righteous at night. That's when I floss and use the water pick. And I'm like, yeah. And then I'm ready to go to bed. I'm like, yep, my teeth are really clean.

I'm not going to die early, you know. Yeah, I'm into a routine too. I mean, listen, my flossing routine, it's flossing. Now I'm going to use the slate flosser, but, you know, it's flossing. I have the water pick, too, just like you. I have this copper tongue scraper. I mean, I've gone kind of overboard with it. You've got the copper tongue scraper.

Yes. That is next level. You've got to add it to your regiment. Yeah, totally. I've got to add that. Okay, Andrew, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll hear from a full-time radiologist who started a side business after a boozy golf trip. Stay with us.

I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line here on how. how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. So Andrew, I think you might get a little deja vu hearing this next caller's story because it's so much like yours. Let's bring him in. Caller, hello, Turner.

You are on the line. Hey, guys. Hello, Turner. Hey, Turner. Welcome, Turner. Please tell us your name, the name of your business and where you live. Yeah, my name is Turner Lewis. I am founder of four craft cocktails based in Richmond, Virginia.

We make golf-inspired, ready to drink canned cocktails for on and off the golf course. Golf-inspired canned cocktails. That's right. Okay. And what's your question that you brought today? Well, at this point, I've kind of bootstrapped the company for a couple of years and grown it pretty well, but I'm looking at outside investment. And so having listened to your podcast, I know you waited about 10 years to do that. But I'm curious as how you started that process, if you had to be a lot of, you had a lot of

anyone kind of advising you because to me it's very intimidating. But my marketing and Salesforce requirements are outgrowing my personal ability to keep up. Of course and completely understandable. Yeah. All right. We're going to get to your question in just a minute. Let me let's backtrack for a moment. And tell us a little bit about how you start.

So these are canned cocktails, right? That's right. And alcoholic cocktails. Yep. Okay. And like traditional drinks like gin and tonics and rum and Coke or what? Well, it started with a golf drink that we know pretty well here in Virginia called a transfusion, ironically. Okay.

Ginger ale, grape juice, lime, and vodka. Gingerail, grape juice, vodka, lime? Yep. Wow, okay. Is this like a thing that people golf know about, like everywhere? It's a golf drink. It kind of goes back to the Eisenhower presidency, who was a big golfer. Oh, grape juice.

Wow. I did not know that. Yeah, yeah. Very refreshing. Grape juice is like a rare mixer in cocktails. You don't see grape juice a lot. Not often. And that actually helps me out because a lot of places don't stop grape juice like top golf.

And so my cocktail is something they can actually carry because they don't have the ingredients to make it. All right. And how did this business come about? Because I think that this is not your background. You're not like a golf pro and you're not a – didn't come from the beverage industry, right? What do you do? Yeah. Not even a good golfer, actually.

but I am actually a practicing a radiologist. Okay. Amazing. Okay. Full-time. Full-time radiologist. Okay, yes. Yep, stuffed into a dark room in the basement of the hospital looking at screens all day.

So like Andrew, I grew up in a household with a father who was a physician. And out in the country in Virginia where I grew up, my dad was the only country doc. We had an exam room in our house. I grew up kind of helping him stitch up people that came in off the fish boats in our little. area and just, you know, people would pay them with a bushel of crabs or some corn and tomatoes. And I just fell in love with the idea of being a doctor. I love it. Okay.

So you are a radiologist. And how did you get into this? Like, what prompted you to, because you have a great job. You are a respected professional. I mean, I just had a shoulder thing and I love my radiologist, right? How did you get this idea? Yes, I was actually on a golf trip with my best friend from medical school, Potter. and we were down in Florida playing 36 holes of golf a day,

which is a lot of golf for old guys like us. That's a lot. The transfusion was a perfect pick-me-up. So you're on your 27-told, getting a couple of fish tacos at the turn. Grape juice and vodka. Grape juice and vodka. It just gets you through the round. And anyway, we're fumbling around with these plastic cups and lids and straws.

And I'm thinking, you know, I can get a beer or a seltzer or a malt-based drink in a can. Why is this not in a can? And so that was right before the COVID era. And so that idea lasted about seven minutes until I lost the next ball or whatever. And then enter COVID where my day job slowed way down because imaging centers shut down for COVID. And it can only help homeschool the three kids for so long. So got that idea again and started having some sleepless nights about how do you produce a cocktail, how do you can it, how do you sell it? And I just kind of went down that rabbit hole and started it.

Andrew, a man after your heart, because this is like I'm hearing so many parallels. A lot of parallels. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. At first, I want to say that, you know, Turner, congratulations on the journey and what you're doing here. And it takes, you know, a special type of courage to do what you're doing and keep your daily job and venture into beverage, which I would say is my favorite and most exciting category by far and away. Well, I appreciate it. I feel like, you know, it's a little bit of yin and yang where I feel like I'm doing good by day and, you know, I'm selling alcohol by weekend or whatever. But, you know, I think having that entrepreneurial spirit, I didn't know I really had it until a few years ago.

And once you realize you have that passion to do something different, it's hard to let it go. And resiliency and hard work have kind of gotten me to be able to do both. But it's like having two full-time jobs now. So I'm sure. I'm sure. Yeah, I bet. I mean, Andrew was a full-time resident when he launched Orgain. And so that, I mean, I can't even imagine what your day is like. Turner, how, tell me how, I mean, this is, you launched this relatively recently. Tell us a little bit more about the business. Like, are you doing over $100,000 in sales yet? Is it wide distribution? Where is it available? Yeah, so started in 2021, I launched the product in May out of my garage. sort of like you, I think, Andrew. Yes. And, you know, my wife and I were driving it all over the state of Virginia on my days off

and when she wasn't faring around our three kids to sports and, you know, got a lucky break. Got in with a distributor here in Virginia in 2022. And since then, we've grown to 10 states of distribution with different distributors. We've got six flavors on the market. Sold in convenience stores or? Yeah, so another thing I've learned, you know, after the, the fact is how difficult the alcohol business is. So each state has very different laws and regulations. Virginia, I'm fortunate because it's, even though it's spirit-based, we can sell

it in grocery. So we're in Trader Joe's and Total Wine and Kroger, top golf, places like that, whereas the other states I'm in is more independent liquor stores, restaurants, bars. And so each state's a little different. And golf course, like golf club houses too? That's right. Yep. Okay. And how, do you mind giving us a sense of how big the businesses at this point? Are you below $500,000 a year or below a million a year? Yeah. So I like to say we've doubled year every year. So from starting in our garage to now, we've doubled each year. We're a little shy of half a million last year. And I think we're going to, I just launched three new markets this spring. So I feel like it's got some potential for

exponential growth. And that makes it tricky. It's hard to predict how much to produce, how much ingredients to order, how much money to put forth toward the next production run. So it is growing, and I think in a pretty exponential fashion. All right. Let's get to your question. So you want to think about maybe bringing on investors or maybe you are already having those conversations because you need money if you want to scale this thing. Tell us a little bit more about what you're looking for. Yeah, I think at this point, like I mentioned, I've bootstrapped it to this point.

with kind of cash flow from the business, some personal savings, the small credit line. And, you know, I think really the key to this business as a David versus a sea of Goliath's is having marketing. I have, you know, I'm not putting much budget other than when I'm doing Instagram ads, you know, trying to, trying to bulk it up a little bit. Or I have one influencer that, that's sort of, you know, I pay each month to kind of promote the brand. But I think the key to this brand is getting it out, getting the word out to the golfers out there to know it's at the golf course or at the grocery store. And so when you're looking at raising capital, you know, obviously I've thought about friends and family, but I'm always nervous about losing other people's money.

I thought about bringing in other investors, but that brings challenges as well. And so really I'm looking to see what kind of guidance you might give someone that's in that growth phase that has success. And it's, how do you do that? Because, again, I'm very intimidated by that process. Andrew, you brought in investors. I think for the first time, you had investors earlier on Gary Hirshberg and others, but Butterfly Equity came in in 2019. You decided to partner with them.

That's correct. How do you begin to evaluate these things? I mean, if you're in, you were in Turner's shoes. How should he start thinking? So I'd say Turner, it's a very good question. And I think it's important to think about it both ways. meaning what are you looking for for an investor from an investor? And what is the investor looking at your company for?

And what's going to be the best? So the most important things, I would say, without question, integrity, transparency, and making sure that the investor that you bring on is going to be truly value ad. In other words, you want investors that you could really trust and trust you, but you want them to be more than just a check. At my fund, for example, humble growth, like if we can't catapult the business or really progress the business in seven tangible days on day one, you shouldn't take our money, nor should we invest in you. Right? So I think that value ad piece is very important. From an investor

perspective, and just to be transparent, I want to ask you some questions, do you think it's limiting for you to be catering just to the golf community? That's a great question. And actually, in the first month or two of my hairbrain scheme to do this, I actually was able to talk to a consultant who was an expert in the alcohol world. And he said two things. You need a million dollars to start. And golf is too narrow. I said, well, I don't have a million dollars to start.

And I think with 16,000 golf courses and 25 million rounds of golf, I feel like it's a blue ocean. I truly see it as an opportunity that maybe that's ignorance. But I also feel like if you can make a good product and brand it properly and sort of build this grassroots foundation, there's nothing that can stop it. And so I think, again, maybe that's my mistake, but I've doubled down on the golf branding, thinking that golfers play golf, but they do a lot of other things, too. They go to the beach. They go to sports events. They boat. And so our product is intended

for that market. I like that. I mean, look, I think it's a very good answer. The one counterbalance to that that you're going to hear from investors is Turner, if you and I were to go fishing, and I'm going to take you to a lake that has 16,000 fish, but just down 15 miles from that lake, there's a lake that has 6 million fish. You know, where would you want to fish? And I think that, so that's referred to as total addressable market. And that's one thing as an investor,

putting my investor hat on, we want to make sure the total addressable market is huge. Now, what I do like about what you're doing is that it's narrow in the sense that your marketing is very focused, you're going to be disciplined, you know you're kind of the category and what you're after. But that's one thing to keep in mind.

The other thing from an investor perspective is they have to know the beverage realm very well. Distribution, sales, marketing, you said, cost of goods improvements on your ingredients, your cans. Taking it a step further, you want an investor that knows the alcoholic beverage space is familiar with the strategics that you're going to ultimately partner with or acquire you. And I think that's the ultimate investor for you.

I just want to make sure that you understand the questions that are going to come your way and there's going to be many. And the biggest one is going to be, how big can this business get? Is there a ceiling based on what you're doing? Those are wonderful questions. And look, I'm the first to admit, I'm no expert. I have zero experience in alcohol, zero experience in business. So that's where I think, like you said, I don't want to check. I can always borrow more money, which I don't really want to do. But I need more than that. I need networking. I need that business expertise, the connectivity to be able to really grow the brand. And that's not your average investor. Yeah. You need somebody who also loves this brand. And the other thing I would

think is particularly interesting because I think that this, like, can you turn this into a lifestyle brand rather than just a golf lifestyle brand? And I think you can. I mean, these are nice cans. The colors are pop. The flavors are nice. You can imagine just a cooler of these at a, you know, or backyard barbecue. Yeah. I think guy that's spot on. And I would also say, Turner, you could still market and be aggressive to the golfing community and do everything that you want.

But then you open it up where this weekend I'm having 20 friends over and I'm going out to buy four. And no one golfs, by the way, in these 20 people that are coming over. But it doesn't matter now. And if you have that moment or that pivot where it doesn't matter, you're going to open up into that much bigger lake. And I think the, then you have no ceiling. Right. Yeah.

Well, and I like to often think about how many celebrities you see, for instance, at the ATT, Pebble Beach Pro Am, Bill Murray, Justin Timberlake, Jimmy Fallon's a big golfer. Like, these people that are doing other things, they play golf. And so it's not just the diehard golfer every Saturday on his foursome. This is the person that's going to top golf with their family, for instance, and he's like, I want something other than beer. I feel like, even though it's golf branded, we do have more of a, uh, uh, a person that's going to be a, uh, a slightly universal appeal. At least that's what I tell myself. Yeah, we had Gary Erickson on the show. And if you remember with Cliff Barr, he started that brand with cyclists and triathletes. You know, that was his tribe at the beginning. And of course, eventually grew into something that had mass appeal.

I mean, even Oregon started something for people in hospitals, right? And now it's for athletes and people and kids and, you know, moms and all kinds of people. Similarly, I mean, you have this opportunity to build this through that tribe of golfers. but really with a vision to make it a non-golf-specific product. Yeah, and I've become pretty good on the USPTO, so I trademark a lot of things, one of which is drink like a golfer. So it's implying that even if you're not golfing, you can still have a cocktail when you're skiing or doing other things, right? Hopefully after skiing, hopefully when you're down the mountain. Yeah. That's a great point.

That's a great point. Yeah, no drunk skiers today. Andrew, any last words of wisdom for Turner? No, I think, Turner, you're doing an awesome job, and I would encourage you to think a little bit broader and certainly bring on people. I think the good news here is that there's a lot of people in this space that are eager for brands

that are doing something special and unique. It's up to you to unlock and find that pivot, the same way the Cliff Founder did, the same way I did at Oregon, the same way others are. Open that up as wide as possible, and I think you'll see a lot more opportunities. Turner, don't just drink like a golfer.

Think like a golfer. I love it. Can I trademark that? Do you mind if I grab that one? I think it's yours. You got it. Just send me the residuals. Turner, congrats.

Thank you so much for calling in and we'll be watching. Thank you both. I'm humbled by this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, radiology into canned cocktails. It's pretty cool. I mean, it's not every day, Andrew, that you come across, or maybe you do.

I don't know. People who are in your profession who basically make. want to make a pivot into the world of entrepreneurship. I'd say it's exceedingly rare, but I think I love hearing stories like this. And I think doing things that you've never done before is the most exciting thing. And there's growth, but there's also, you know, I would say growth in comfort never coexist, right? And you have to kind of get out of what you're accustomed to to find that growth. So it's great to hear these stories. I love it.

All right, Andrew, we're going to take another quick break. but when we come back, a founder who's got their product in over 200 target stores, but still can't get any love from investors. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and hopefully we've got the answers here on the advice line on how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. So, Andrew, let's bring in our last caller. I think we've got Catherine on the line. Catherine, hello.

Hi, how are you? Catherine, welcome. Please tell us your name, the name of your business. And where you're from? My name is Catherine Smart. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Not Just Co. And we make really delicious, very versatile. I should say for this crowd, no sugar added, no junk added, pasta sauces and salad

dressings to really support busy families with a weeknight dinner juggle. Nice. And where are you based? Where do you live? Summerville, Massachusetts. Oh, cool. Nice. All right.

So, Catherine, what is the question you brought for us today? My question today is around fundraising. So my co-founder and I are raising our seed round of a million dollars, and we have the first checks in. And the feedback that we're getting from a lot of investors is we love the brand, we love the product, we see the vision. Please come back when you have $2 to $5 million in sales. And we're going to do about a million dollars in sales this year. We launched in 240 targets. We have nationwide distribution, strong velocities.

But my question is, how do I connect with those right angel investors, family offices, maybe VCs, that are interested in a company at a stage like mine. Because, Andrew, I know you know that it takes capital to get from point A to point B. Sure. Okay, we'll get to the question in just a moment, but a couple questions for you. So not just co. These are sauces, dressings. How did you get this idea?

Tell me where it came from. You know, I spent my whole career as a personal chef and a food writer and a culinary instructor on television. And I realized, like, most people cannot afford. a personal chef and I just really wanted to help a wider audience get dinner done because, you know, as I think you both are parents and know what a challenge it can be to get dinner on the table. Yeah. It's not easy. Yeah, I do it every night and it's, it's my time to myself, but this is a lot of work.

And so this is basically you decided that you wanted to create ways to make it easier for people to make dinner, but with sauces and which really is what it's all about. Like you can throw a piece of fish in the pan, but if you got a good sauce on it, then you have a really good dinner. See, you know that guy, but a lot of folks don't. So the actual, our flagship product is called our 10 veggie, not just pasta sauce. And it actually came about because I had this personal chef client with a farm share. And every week, I'm like, how do I turn this box of vegetables into something the whole family's going to love? So it started as a sauce for spaghetti meatballs, was like, oh, this is a Shaksuka base. It's an enchilada topper.

I can throw it an instant pot. And so I cornered my co-founder when she was six months pregnant. After a cooking class, we taught together and said, what if we put this in a jar and made more of these kind of meal starting sauces? And Catherine, tell me, like, how are you, how did you initially finances? Did you just kind of bootstrap it or did you raise a little bit of money from friends and family? Yes, it was a combination. So we actually started back in 2018. But at that point, my co-founder and I were working nights and weekends.

We were putting sauce runs on credit cards. We were delivering sauce to local specialty food shops. Eventually, I convinced some of my personal chef clients to put in the first money, and that was a really hilarious pitch, right? Like, give me your money so I can stop making you dinner and go do something else. But they were supportive and really great. And we have raised $1.7 million to date. So that we were able to create our first five skews.

We gained distribution. But we're at a point now with the growth that we need to raise that we need to raise again. So question for you, Catherine, as you're thinking about the business, one of the most important thing for investors is to understand the use of proceeds, meaning if we're going to invest capital into your brand, how exactly are you going to use the capital and in what way? So we're looking to raise a million dollars.

I think we have about half of that left to go. The primary place that that's going is supporting our recent retail growth and distribution. So a lot of it is going to marketing. Our growth has been 100% organic until now. There is also some production. But the day-to-day business supports most of the payroll, and it really is just able to take advantage of these retail opportunities that we won't be able to, unless we're able to support them.

Got it. So, Catherine, curious just to understand a little bit more about the business, where are your biggest sales today? Is it online? Is it in the stores today? It's in the stores today. So we do have a direct-to-consumer business, but shipping glass across the country, we learned pretty early on.

Back then, we were bootstrapping that our stronger velocities and interests were actually on shelf. So we do a lot of sales through Target in the 240 doors, which are across the country. And then we're also in a lot of grocery stores like Central Market and Nugget, kind of regional chains in the natural grocery channel. And how are they doing? You know, you're on a shelf at Target or elsewhere with seven to 10 to 15. to 25 other brands, how are, I mean, you mentioned, you know, your sales so far, how are you

getting this in front of consumers? Yeah, so it is a challenge because we have, we don't have a massive budget, but we have, as I mentioned, we raised money previously. And we find that works really, what works really well for us is a high, low promotion strategy. So people love our products. And once they try them, they come back and buy them again. So for instance, we just ran our first promotion at Target and saw 300% lifted sales. There was places where 10 jars were flying off the shelf in one week, which when you're not a salty snack or a beverage, that means something. That being said, we have to be really judicious and capital efficient because we're not Rayos or one of those larger brands. Yeah. I think what you just said, Catherine, goes a very long

ways. And I think it's step one. One of the most important things you can do in looking to raise money is craft that compelling story. Right. So as an investor, investors all, they want to understand your vision, of course, the market opportunity and how it's differentiated, but they also want to know exactly how you're going to use the money and what it's going to do to catapult the brand. So a concise and compelling pitch deck that highlights your brand's uniqueness and the fact that this is how you're going to use the money and you're going to get to this stage, that goes a very long way. So I would say that's number one, like show your traction, what you just described, showcase your

achievements, your distribution, your velocities, your margins, all of those things I think are critical, and that's the base and the foundation. And then as you go out, I think, think of it a lot, like a lot of people say finding money is difficult, and it absolutely is, but it comes a little bit easier if you go out there and you date as many people or as many investors as you can. You're getting out in front of family offices. You're getting in front of the angels. So like networking events, pitch competitions, which there are many now, right, joining angel investor groups to kind of build relationships. And I'm happy to send you some so that helps. But getting in, in front of as many investors as possible, I think will go a very long way.

Andrew, tell me a little bit about the, I mean, just anecdotally, I'm hearing that the funding opportunities are harder now, you know, for a variety of reasons, especially around consumer and especially in food. It doesn't mean that there isn't money. It doesn't mean it's not available. There is money. But is that true, or is that just kind of, you know, mythology that you hear people talking about?

No, I'd say it's accurate guy. It is a bit more difficult today for sure. I mean, a few years ago, there's investors throwing money at anything and everything. That has since corrected. So I think investors are looking for a sound business that's on the road to profitability that shows those velocities. It's one thing to get into a thousand stores, but it matters more to investors to be in a hundred stores and sell the daylights out of those shelves. Right. So I think it's just a little bit different mindset. Investors are being more cautious and more prudent. So you have to keep that in mind as you proceed with investors. What I like about this product is the branding, the design is so nice. It's very clean. It reminds me of like crate and barrel. It's just very clean. And you can see the ingredients inside. But in order to get people to try it, right, Andrew, what, I mean, with limited money,

with limited funds, because they're not going to be able to hire 400 different, you know, samplers and stores around the country, what a way is to get people to just, you know, just taste it to try the pasta sauce or the salad dressing. Yeah, today we live in a digital focus world, and you're in the best category for that. People are eager for recipes, for food, to see it from chefs, to see it from moms that have five kids and don't have time for things.

I think in your case, Catherine, you have a very interesting opportunity to partner with a lot of micro-influencers. I'm not talking about the expensive celebrities that have millions of followers. I'm talking about that, parent of four, that has no time and is looking to find

great recipe, but has 10,000 super engaged followers. I think that's how you get more and more people to try your product because they're going to follow the people they trust. Are you doing any of that? Catherine? I'm nodding sort of vorosiously here because we literally just launched our micro-influencer campaign. We're actually looking to connect with more. So that's something we're absolutely doing. You know, I think about, I mean, of course, influencers have a huge impact on products. And I think about there's a brand called Graza. Grazaa. It's an all. olive oil brand. You see it everywhere. You knew this, right? It's amazing, Andrew, like, that you knew this is a relatively new product and brand, and they've just gone everywhere.

I think that whatever playbook they used, and maybe they raised a bunch of money, I don't know, but it's been really effective. And I think that there are things to learn about that. I don't know if it's certainly not so easy, but it seems like they worked with certain types of influencers to get that product in front of people's eyes. Yeah, and I would add to that guy and say, because I was fascinated by that brand because more and more people that didn't use olive oil are using it now. And I think there's a convenience form factor. Catherine, you talked about earlier, glass is very hard to ship. And that's very true. But I think there's a major unlock for you. Amazon for us is a major business. It's huge. And I think it's a major opportunity for you. I was looking prior to our call, the number one selling pasta sauce on Amazon is in a 45 ounce plastic jar, right? I'm not, that may compromise the product, but taking a page out of the book of Graza is maybe you can eventually have something, a different form factor, maybe you don't do it today, but something for investors to show we are going to revolutionize the way this is shipped and the way this is stored and the way

this is used, so people are using a lot more of our sauce. I'm not saying that's the concept, but you have to think like that for the next investor unlock. Absolutely. I mean, it wouldn't be is beautiful in the jar form, but maybe a tetrapack, for example. Could be. That's not plastic. And maybe there's an online strategy and an in-retail strategy. And what's nice about that is you have your price pack architecture where it's different prices and they're not fighting with each other.

So I love that idea. And I think it's something that could be a major unlock for you, something to keep in the back of your mind. One other quick question that I had for you both is, you know, as I said earlier, taste and taste and nutrition are really table stakes for us. But what I think is a real differentiator is the versatility of the sauce. I mentioned I was a personal chef, and that's how I use the sauces. The great for a grain bowl, for a marinade, there's so many ways to use them.

But educating the consumer on that can be challenging. And I'm curious, you both have such incredible creative minds. How would you suggest that I focus on that education piece? Yeah, I mean, today it's a QR code, right? And that you also have kind of on your bottle, you say different things on the front of it. Maybe it's a starter for a chili or Shukhuka or things like that. I saw in the jar, which I thought was smart. So I think one question that I have for you, back to you, Catherine,

is it confusing at all for consumers as they see your product as not just pasta sauce, that maybe it's actually something that might be not helpful? Or do you see that it's super helpful? Yeah, so it's interesting. The feedback was a little mixed. But as the business has grown, what we've heard is people pick us up as a pasta sauce, and then once they engage with the brand, they start playing with these different ways to use it. And that's been the same with buyers.

at first there was some hesitancy, and then there was sort of a light bulb moment, but I still feel like we could be doing a lot more with that in order to just benefit our customers and, of course, increase velocities even more for us. I wonder if there's a way without throwing too much stuff on there, and maybe QR code is one solution, that instead of just saying start a chili or simmer shakshuka, you literally say, crack two eggs in this, or, you know, pour it over a piece of roasted salmon, or just something where people are like, oh, yeah, okay, great. I'm going to get some salmon and I'll do that.

We just need your voice to say it, guys. Yeah, that would help a lot. That was perfect. The other thing that I was thinking, too, Catherine, is, like, you know, putting those, the veggies that are in there. I think that's very differentiating and very unique, right? But it's something that you kind of have to discover and know and turn the back. I think leading with that maybe could help.

The other thing is, like, use 10 veggies. It should also be 10 veggies, 10 uses, right? Meaning, like, leverage what you're already pushing on. and use that front of pack. And I think that's going to help with value and people will get it right away. And you could distill that down to the right marketing language,

but I think there's something there. Okay. For sure. For sure. Catherine, smart, not just company. Good luck. Congrats. It's awesome.

Yeah. Congratulations, Catherine. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I mean, golden beats, carrots, there's all kinds of things in here, Andrew. All kinds of goodness in there.

You've got to bring that to the front sometimes, yeah. Kind of bring that to the front. Yeah. Andrew, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. It's been amazing having you. Always an honor for me, Guy. Thank you for inviting me. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and advice.

Great advice. Super, super valuable. By the way, if you haven't heard the story of Orgaine, Andrew's incredible story, really, I mean, I'm just going to say it, one of the best episodes of how I built this ever. So good. Thank you, Guy. Go back and check it out. You can find on your podcast. You will put a link in the description, show description.

And thank you, of course, for listening to our advice line this week. If you are working on a business and you would like to be on the show, please send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and issues or questions or challenges that you'd like help with. And, of course, make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at ID.wondery.com. Or you can call 1-800-433129. 9-8 and leave a message there. And again, we'll put all of this in the show notes.

And we'll see back here next week. Thanks. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with music composed by Ramtina and Blewe. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Malia Agadello, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson.

I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.