How I Built This with Guy Raz - Advice Line with Jamie Siminoff of Ring (August 2024)

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Ring founder Jamie Siminoff joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three founders about balancing short- and long-term goals.  Today, we meet Vico, an industrial designer in southern California who's launching a crowdfunding campaign for his patented ergonomic desk. Then Iyin, a Baltimore-based product specialist seeking to balance accessibility and profitability for her ethically-sourced chocolate brand. And Franchesca, an Atlanta area educator deliberating whether to pursue small-business certifications for her motivational classroom posters.Thank you to the founders of ErgoFlex Desk, Luji's Chocolate, and Thrive12 for being a part of a show. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [e-mail] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Ring’s founding story as told by Jamie on the show in 2020.This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So our team is taking a short break for the end of the summer and we're bringing you an awesome episode from the archives. This is an advice line with Jamie Siminoff, the founder of Ring, and he is going to give amazing. advice to three up-and-coming entrepreneurs. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, you'll hear some updates from all of these founders. It's super cool. Enjoy the show.

Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondry.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest

entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gairoze.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right. Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Jamie Siminoff. He's the creator of the Ring video doorbell. Jamie, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me back on. It's great to have you. Jamie, I remember when you were on the show back in 2020 to, of course, to tell the story of how you created Ring. you were, you know, you are, were and are a tinker. Like you made your first prototype

would become the ring doorbell like in your garage, right? That's exactly, yeah. I was in my garage and couldn't hear the doorbell and just got an iPhone and, you know, like anyone, just build your own Wi-Fi doorbell. Yeah, and of course,

you pursued that idea, which was a bet that would eventually pay off in spades when Ring was acquired by Amazon. But there was a lot of false starts. It was a, you were on Shark Tank and that didn't work out. and you shipped thousands of doorbells that didn't work initially. Since you've been on the show, give us an update of what's going on in your life right now.

So I ended up leaving Amazon and Ring about a year ago. I started a company called Honest Day's Work, which the idea was that there's better ways to build platforms for independent contractors, especially the ones that really care about the job, which we call the Honest Days worker. I then merged that into a public company that had a lot of trouble that was doing door-law. and systems for apartments. So if you think about it, apartment buildings are amazing places

for independent contractors because there's a lot of scale right there. So we kind of merged that in and then we bought another company called HelloTech and we've kind of put this whole thing together and we're trying to build a new way of doing property management and we're rebranding the company to Door and Door.com.

I do love a four-letter domain name. And so I've been in the process for like the last year of kind of turning something around and it's really, you know, a lot of ways with these callers, you know, thinking about it, like I'm kind of back with them in a lot of ways, you know. You're back in square one, yeah. Yeah. That's so cool.

All right, well, let's bring in our first caller, Jamie, and see if we can help them out. Yeah. Hello, caller. Hi, guy. Hi, Jamie. Thank you for having me on. Hello, hello. Please tell us your name.

Tell me where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. My name is Victor Hugo Hernandez, or as my friends and family like to call me, Vico. I am calling in from Orange County, California. And tell me a little bit about your business. I am the inventor of the ErgoFlex desk, a smart desk that's about to launch into the market later this year. Got, okay. We're going to ask you about this in a moment. And what's your question that you brought for us today, Victor?

Well, my question is, since we're looking to launch in a couple months here, we are looking to launch a Kickstarter campaign, a crowdfunding campaign. And we'd like to get some insight on how to best prepare. and complete a successful campaign. Cool. All right. Well, you're in the right place, Victor. Let's start with a little bit about what you're creating. So these are ergonomic desks.

I'm assuming these, this is like, what you mean by that is these are like standing desks or sitting desks or they're designed to make sure your posture is right and you're not going to get carpal tunnel syndrome and all that stuff? Yes, exactly. It's actually a sit-and-stand desk that I recently got a patent for late last year for its tilt capabilities. So in addition to sit and stand, it tilts up to 70 degrees.

Oh, nice. Originally for my purpose was for it to turn into an artist easel. And now everything's motorized, controlled through an app, and soon you'll be able to control it through voice command for people with disabilities. Oh, so you can control it through an app, so it's all electronic. And how did you, are you an artist? Like, tell me how you came up with this whole thing. My background was visual arts.

I studied in Cal Poly Humboldt and mainly my focus. sculpture, graphic design, and I started my career up there doing that kind of work and I wanted to, you know, get a desk and the sit-and-stand desk had just come onto the market. So I went to purchase one, but I couldn't find anything that was really suiting to what I was needing. So I decided to create my own desk. And, you know, that has been a seven-year journey now. Wow. From a very, you know, hands-on mobile desk unit to a now pretty much a robot desk that can sit, stand, tilt. And then I also added omnidirectional ground movement powered wheels at the bottom so that the desk can be driven, kind of like an RC car. It's all connected through Wi-Fi.

But it doesn't do the work for you. It doesn't do the work for you. You still have to do the work, Jamie. Still to do the work. Okay, I just want to make sure. I don't know where the autonomy stops. I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, you still got to.

But wow, it's like the cool. coolest remote control car. Can I ask you a question, Victor, about who do you imagine using this desk, artists, drafts people, or just anybody in an office? Yeah, so I mean, because it tilts up to 70 degrees, it could really be used for pretty much most applications. So like a drafter for architecture is about 35 to 40 degrees. And then just for your ergonomics as far as your shoulders and your neck and strains, right, and also for people with disabilities. I have somebody in our family who has a disability, and that's something that is important to me to be able to serve that underserved community. And so I soon realized that this actually would benefit a lot of people and increase their creativity as well.

So to your question of the pre-sale Kickstarter, what's worrying me right now is that you have a lot of customers but fringe on each one. Like I'm a stand up. I mean, I'm standing now. I don't actually even own a chair in any office that I have. You don't own a chair in any of your offices. I don't. Good for you. And I could buy one.

I mean, I just want to, like, just so you know, I mean, I could. If you need me to send you one, Jamie, let me know. I appreciate it. But I'm a standing person, but the tilt for me wouldn't help me. Like the way I work, what I'm doing, like, that wouldn't be. Like, I'm not doing artist things. And so I think on each one of these categories you're like in sort of a piece. And so the thing about Kickstarter is you need to get like obviously groups into it.

So how do you find what are the other like top three somewhat niche small communities that you could enter into to get to sort of buy this? That's how I'd be looking at it. You know, because niches can be still big. It doesn't mean they're small. Yeah. But how do I find them? Like how do I find this person that wants this? Like an architect or even like a nurse and like a hospital.

Like you're talking about specific types of people, Jamie, right? Yeah. Yeah, my goal to that effect was I'm going to try. tried to partner up with about five different influencers in different spaces, right, that have a good following, one in the ergonomics field, one in the gaming, one in the cultural celebrity field, one of the visual artists. And we will design a custom unit for them. And then one will go off to the raffle for the crowdfunding campaign so that any follower of theirs can, you know, have a minimum donation of a $1, $5, and then be submitted to the raffle.

Got it. Okay. And tell me how you, and do you, and do you, have a prototype, a working prototype? Yes, actually. It's consumer ready. So it actually, my engineer, I flew him out from the Philippines. We pretty much put the final touches on all the sensors, all the safety. It has collision detection. So if it was to collide with anything on any motors, everything stops. I'm about to meet with him really soon.

And we're about to get the code to do the voice control so that you'll be able to tell it to go to a certain height, tilt to a certain angle, maybe rotate certain degrees. and then later down the line, the AI camera also will be available for you to be able to say, hey, Desk, come over here. And so, you know, I think that really for people with disabilities, that's going to be a really huge benefit if somebody's bedridden or, you know, in a wheelchair. Yeah, like, hey, Desk, bring me my lunch. Or I could be like, but if I said, hey, desk, can you go run Jamie over?

It wouldn't do that. It'll collide. It'll stop. Well, actually, it'll stop. It'll be like, oh, there it is. It might do it if you ask it to. I want to override that. Hey, desk, go bug Jamie. Just go bump them.

I mean, and again, this is where, like, it's, there's a lot there. And it's a, like, as you talk, it's like a little all over the place. Though, I think it's like, for example, if you may be just focused on people that are, in some ways, I don't have the capability to move around, like, they might be able to access insurance to buy the desk. Yeah. And so I think there's, like, interesting things. It's just the, the one thing I worry about when I hear something does everything is that it's

that it's hard to sell it. And it's like even in my own, in my new business, I have that problem of like trying to boil things down to focus it. And it's very hard to do that because a lot of things can do a lot of things. But it's really like the magic a lot of times comes from focusing it.

Well, right now, Victor's got one issue on, on his plate, right? Which is Kickstarter. You want to launch this on Kickstarter. Jamie, you didn't launch Ring on Kickstarter, but you did a crowdfunding campaign. Yep. And so Victor's trying to figure out,

like, what should he do? Right. And so like the obvious things are make a video. And I know you've got a video on your website that I'm looking at right now, but you got to make a better video. And how do you like, how does he get attention for this thing? How does he get people like psych to be like, I want that thing? I mean, it's like it feels so TikToky of like the driving to someone who has a disability or like sort of from the emotional side of TikTok to the fun side. That's great point. Of doing things. Like it feels like there's just so many little bites that you could have at that that could go viral. Yeah, I mean, I can imagine a video where you've got like, you've got like a couple people just like carrying this really heavy desk from one part of a room to another and then you come on. You're like, why do you have a heavy desk in one spot? Like the future is a desk that moves for you and that you can stand and sit, something like that. I keep, I've referred to this several times on the advice line, which is liquid death.

And Jamie, I know you probably know this story. but, you know, Mike Cesario didn't have a big budget when he launched that brand. He spent $1,500 making a viral video that truly went viral. I mean, you may have seen it. It's like the last scene as somebody just kind of, it's kind of crazy, but he did this. Somebody being waterboarded with liquid death, right? Like he was really kind of playing into the absurd. But you can imagine, like with a small budget and a couple of iPhones making a really funny video

that also shows the functionality. Like to me, that's where you got to start. I totally agree. Dollar Shave Club, Liquid Death. Some of those are like, they've just like amazing as I sit here and drink liquid death right now. And so I do think it's like it doesn't have to be outlandish. Like outlandish could be in your own way.

It doesn't have to just be crazy. It can also be very emotional. And as I think like, you know, depending, you sound like someone also has like grounded in some things that like are more emotional about what. what you built. And I think if you can try to get that out, that can also be as viral as, you know, waterboarding someone with a can of water, which is pretty hysterical, I think. Yeah, I wonder, Jamie, is there a, not a risk, but, like, given that Victor's trying to create a mass appeal product, like, if initially he's focusing on, you know, folks with disabilities, which obviously this is designed to also appeal to,

would it send a signal that this is specifically for folks who have limited mobility or rather than anyone like just anyone who wants a standing sitting desk? I think for sure what you might want to do is break the brands up. Like you might want to have a gaming one that's a little bit set up differently under a different brand. It could be like something like, you know, Gamer Extreme desk buy VECO. And then it's like, you know, healthcare desk by VE. It could be like, you know, kind of buy or you could do something to sort of do that, but it doesn't sort of translate over it.

something else. Yeah, no, that is great advice. That's kind of where I've been working on straddling. I mean, I have my business plan and I know that we can benefit a lot of different sectors, but yes, it's all about how to tailor the message for each sector and not muddy up the waters. I'm hoping that there's one that's big enough to be a business, because if you have to do multiple to be a business, I really worry that you're going to have trouble being a business. So hopefully, like, one of those, like maybe just, I don't, I don't know how big disability is in general, but it might actually be that that just that alone is so big. It might be.

That that's a business. And then you can do gaming off of that and all these other things, especially as you get your costs down and you're manufacturing better and all the other sort of pieces solved. Yeah, I also see it as like, you will discover this over time. I mean, once you put this out of the world, you'll start to see where you're getting traction and who's interested in the product. And that often helps people figure out where their market is. You know, like they might have been targeting a completely different market only to discover that like this group of people uses it this way and that, you know, your consumers, they kind of show you the way.

And that's what's just so awesome about pre-sale in general and Kickstarter is that you're truly, you're not surveying. You're getting like money votes. And when people vote with their dollars, it's very different than when they're voting with like a survey. All right. And when do you hope to launch it? hopefully in a couple months. Yeah, so hopefully, you know, it will be live around September so that the, you know, holiday season can be a great start for everybody.

Cool. The company is called Ergo Flexdesk, Victor Hernandez. Thanks. Good luck, man. Good luck, Vicko. Thank you so much, you guys. I really appreciate you guys and you guys are an inspiration, you know, how I built this and Jamie, thank you so much for everything, my friend.

Awesome. Thanks for you. Take care. Thank you. Jamie, you must have had had remote. control cars, like the frog and... Frog, everything. MRC.

MRC Tamia, was it? Like, yeah. Yeah, those were so sweet. Remember how fast? That's really what taught me engineering. Yeah, I bet. I remember you talking about that. That's right.

We talked about that. Electric, everything, yeah. We talked about the frog. I remember. But I can hear that set, like, on my street where I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, that... That's going down the...

Music to my ears. Yeah. Oh, my God. So sweet. They went so fast. And then they would crash and break and you'd have to like fix it. That was the best part is like when they broke, you had to like fix it and you know, you learned. I kind of, now I'm, I mean, I don't think the ergo desk is going to do that like to go that fast. I don't know. But I mean, right? I mean, as Vico was talking, I mean, it's going to like go get food for you and bring it back.

I mean, it's like a door dasher. It's like your own door dash robot. Yeah. All right, Jamie, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, luxury. Nigerian chocolate that will spice up any dinner party guaranteed. That's after the break. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab.

I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is ring founder Jamie Siminoff. So Jamie, let's bring in our next caller. Hi Jamie. Hi, no guy. I'm so excited to talk to you both. How's it going? Welcome. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from. and a little bit about your business. Yeah, absolutely.

So my name is E. Akinlabi al-Ladimiji. Everyone calls me Ian. I'm calling from Baltimore, Maryland, and I'm the founder of Lugi's chocolate. So we sell delicious chocolate bars made with unique West African ingredients, and for every bar we sell,

we actually give back a cocoa tree seedling back to a farmer where we source our cocoa from. Amazing. Okay, and what's your question for us today? I'd love our bars to be more accessible, but as a bootstrap company, we're priced a little bit higher than I would like right now. So how should we think about our pricing strategy to remain affordable to our customers without compromising our commitment to quality and ethical sourcing and also ensure the financial health of our business in the short and long term?

All right. We'll get your question a moment. I've got a bunch of questions. Jamie does, I'm sure, as well. Let's start with your product. So you, these are, this is chocolate made and sourced in specifically, in in West Africa, but in a specific country? It's specifically in Nigeria, exactly.

So we saw chocolate bars that are made in Nigeria. Nigeria, okay. And most of the world's chocolate comes from Ivory Coast and Nigeria and like and these countries, right, in West Africa. And I guess what you discovered that not a whole lot of is actually made there, just that the raw materials are shipped and then it's made in Europe or in the U.S. or in South America or in Asia. Exactly. Yeah. So like in 2019, when I lived in Ghana, I basically found out that over 70% of cocoa is grown in West Africa, but less than 1% of chocolate is actually manufactured there. And basically once I learned that stat, I knew I wanted to be part of changing it. And that's why I started Lucci's chocolate. I actually love to, yeah, like why? So it's like it's produced there, but it's not made there in terms of like the actual finished product. Why does that matter? So basically most of the chocolate you find on your grocery shelves today,

are not made there. Typically, they buy the cocoa from like Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, then they ship it to the U.S. or Europe, and that's where they actually produce the chocolate. So what that means is, as you can imagine, most of the value addition, the money, the resources don't actually stay within that community. And then also a lot of them follow like a very typical and formulaic manufacturing process. Unfortunately, they're like a ton of middlemen between the farmers and the end users. A lot of them, them also have really negative and unethical sourcing practices. And then something that's really important to most customers is like most of the chocolate

we see on the shelves, they're like really boring. They use the same ingredients. But I think some people are also, a lot of chocolate lovers are really into unique inclusions that maybe could be local to the region where we're actually sourcing from. But the big thing is that by making it there, that instead of them being commodity farmers that are just getting bought by pound by some middleman distributor, now they actually can be part of the value that's created in chocolate, and that's meaningful to them and their communities?

That's meaningful to them and their communities, as well as the person buying the chocolate because essentially your purchase is making an impact where you bought it. And then the actual, what we, like our bestseller, we have a ginger with plantain chips flavor chocolate bar, and we also have a spicy suya. Soya is a West African blend. So what you're actually buying is like a different type of chocolate as well.

So what's your, what's your, like, background? What do you do? And what have you been doing for most of your career? And is this your full-time gig right now? So as far as educational background, I studied chemical engineering, but I've never worked as a chemical engineer. I hated it. And I've always worked in technology. So right now, I work in like a low-code SaaS company, like as a product expert. And right now, it's, I mean, it's not my full-time gig, but however, it's my second job. I don't. think of it as a side hustle because I feel like I work two jobs right now. Okay. So I'm looking at the website and I love your colors. I love the design scheme. I think that's super cool. Thank you. One interesting thing is, and I just learned about this recently, one of the top selling chocolate brands in Europe is Tony's Chocoloni chocolate. Okay. And this is a relatively new brand and it's a brand that was started by basically the story is they started by an ex-journalist who discovered. like the how chocolate farmers are exploited and he wanted to create a more ethical chocolate brand. But from what I've learned, that isn't why the brand has been so successful. The story, you can see the story on the back of the bar, but I would go out on a limb and say most people aren't reading it. And the reason why the brand is successful is because it tastes really good. And it looks like a cartoony chocolate.

It's got this cartoony logo on the front, and it's sold in the U.S. as well and around the world. And I think that while there's no question, there is a segment of the consumer market that is going to be interested in supporting what you do. I think your biggest value proposition is ginger plantain crunch is like these really interesting, unique flavors. Jamie, what do you think about that? It's a balance. You know, my good friends of mine started Bull and Branch, Missy and Scott Tannen. And they sort of had a similar thing to you, which is like they found out about cotton and that cotton the way it's grown. And like this sort of like how it affects communities in the places it's grown in India.

And so they did a good job early on of doing that. But Guy, to your point, I think people buy Bull and Branch sheets because they're great sheets. I didn't even know that story. That's right. I just knew that they make good sheets. So, but that was what was behind it. And I do like, I think there's something about authenticity behind a brand that matters. And so I love that it's not like you're just not trying to build like X, Y Z chocolate. But I do, yeah, I think with guy, I think you're right. I think the consumer sadly like, like, maybe it's not sadly. Like they, but you're right. Like, they're going to like a interesting flavor of something. And that's probably going to trump any sort of, you know, story and which helps, but maybe I think you're right. No, I 100% understand what you're saying. And I actually could, I think as far as like my messaging, initially it was like because of the reason I started it, it leaned a lot heavier on the impact aspect.

But I've learned and it's starting to pivot more into like our like our flavor profile. But I think what's challenging with that sometimes, and it feels like I'm competing on the same thing that any chocolate would be talking about. So sometimes it's challenging for me to see how to balance that. Yeah, and I'm trying to, like, it is, that's the balance. And I try to look at some others like Bowling Branch that have done this and just see how they've balanced it. It sounds like Tony Chocoloni. It sounds like they've done a good job at that. You know, liquid death, which we, like, fun of these ones I continue to talk about, that was death to plastic.

Like, he cared about killing plastic and plastic water bottles, but I would say one percent of people know that. I didn't know that. So, but, you know, I built a huge brand. So, but I think, again, authenticity actually breeds something. There's something about having true authenticity that when you go into these brands, like at Ring, we cared about making Neighborhood safer. I'm not sure if everyone who bought a Ring knew that, but we really cared about that. Like, that was something that was like super ingrained in what we did.

And so I think there's something still about like having, like hold on to that. Don't just because if it's just the ginger, whatever, sell, like, if it's the flavors you figure out that are selling, like, I think still holding on to that is important. your question that was around the pricing and accessibility. And that thing concerned me because it's like you're trying to, like on one hand, you're saying like, I'm doing all these premium things to help these communities. And on the other hand,

you're like, I want to be the cheapest chocolate in the world. And it's like, it's like these things are just like, feel like they're just so distant. Yeah. And I think you're bringing up the fighting process that I go through. Essentially,

I definitely don't want to be the cheapest. Primarily, we've been selling online. And then more recently, we just got into like our first small retail store and we just started actually trying to get into more stores. And I think as I've started that process, I'm starting to think through our pricing strategy. Where are you like if Hershey's is, I didn't even know, like whatever, where are you? Yeah. So look, let's say Hershey's is like $2.

The Tony Chocoloni that guy mentioned is maybe $5 and we're at $10.50 per bar. There's like a craft chocolate space where there are there are. Oh, sure. Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot that are in that space. But I think my goal in starting this was to make this more accessible to people. So I'm struggling to figure out how to think about that. I think, I'll get the price issue question in just a sec, but I think that because it's a premium product, I feel like you need to, and you can elevate that a bit more, right?

because I see you've got a video on your website, but I think there are a couple of things that I want to see. I want to see the factory. I want to see where it's made. I want to see somebody pouring the liquid chocolate into the molds. Because premium chocolate, people are willing to pay for it. It's like wine, right? And I think you can just show us that a little bit more.

People really, once they can see what you're paying for, it's handcrafted, It's made from the best quality. Like we pick, you know, we roast, we have the best farmers. It's, this is different kind of chocolate that you're consuming. Yeah, that makes sense. That video was one new shot. We talked about Kickstarter a little bit, but it was part of our Kickstarter campaign when we launched. So I think it's due for an upgrade, for sure.

You know, again, if you're too far outside of the premium side, like even, you know, there are price points that you can fall out of. But it sounds like Tony's Chocoloni. might have figured out that balance between Hershey's and sort of like they might be in that high volume but higher margin. Like they figured out kind of that perfect sort of. And it took them, it took them some time. But yeah, they did. Right. They're in that sort of mid-level price point. And you're not like, like, I just made chocolate chip cookies for friends recently. And I bought a really great chocolate and cut it up, you know. And like, this is what you're selling.

You're selling like the kind of chocolate you'd serve at a dinner. party after dinner with a glass of wine maybe or, you know, like have, right, like this is something that you would really savor. And I think that there's something to this idea that you could, you could put on your label, like, you know, the finest cocoa beans, the best roasters, the most premium ingredients, Luji, something like that, which is just bam, bam, bam, bam, it just pops off the shelves if it's at Whole Foods. Yeah.

Yeah, I think what I'm hearing from what you're both saying is like, we are a premium product and it is definitely differentiated in the categories. So what I was thinking about was like, I know in the long run, we probably want to get closer to like Tony Chocoloni type of pricing. So should I lower that price now? Or is it what seemed more sustainable is like you start high and then as you increase the volume, then I'll be able to like lower it. I'll be a super hypocrite, you know, because it's like, that's what I did with. ring. I mean, when we came out with it, we were making them for more than we were selling them for. I just, you know, in some ways we priced it to what we knew the market would, like the max the market would sustain, but still buy it, knowing also that we had to get to volume. Like, the price we were

paying for each one when we started was way more than if we got to volume. And you're not going to get to volume if you just overcharge or charge, you know, kind of cost plus. Right. And so we had to kind of take that leap of faith that we would be able to. raise enough money, sell enough to get the cost lower to then get the margin in line to get the volume. And that's, we played that game. It's a kind of a bit of a game of chicken. Yeah. And it worked. But I also could see like where that price was going. So I'd also say to you, how far out can you see? I see. Like if you really, if you 10x sales, just pricing really come down that much? Yeah. With with chips and all the stuff, I could actually literally like,

they gave me the thing. Like if you buy 10,000. it's this. If you buy 100,000, it's this, I could, like, on an Excel sheet, show exactly what it was going to be. So at least I wasn't doing it, like, just completely willy-nilly. So if you can see that, maybe then you do want to do that. But I'd make sure that it's actually going to come down and that you're not actually going to, you know, sort of, it's your mission. You're not going to then compress the worker to get the price down because you try, you know, it's almost like, you know, in the end, it would be like this weird, ironic ending. Yeah. Yeah. I would take a page out of LVMH. I was just.

I just had the opportunity to go to Paris to see a bit of the Olympics, and it was amazing. And one of the things you're reminded of when you're in Paris is LVMH controls, owns Paris, and really Europe in many ways. And what's amazing about LVMH is their margins, I think, are so high because its brand, its aspiration they're selling. Right. But it's also quality. I mean, Gucci or Hermes, these are all high-end products. You know they're well-made. but you're also paying for the brand.

You will get to the brand side, but I think you want to really present this as a really premium product. Start there. It's this thing that is made all in the same place. It's a really high-end luxury product, and I think it's worth trying that. Yeah. Yeah.

The brand is called Lugi's Chocolate. Ian, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you both so much. I feel so inspired. I'm good one. All right. Good luck.

Cool. I, yeah, I could chop some of that up and put them on my cookies. I was actually thinking, I'm like, do I get paid for the advice line? Could I get some chocolate maybe, you know? You know what? Next time you come up here, I'm going to get some of Lou Gees' chocolate and I'll make you cookies. I just made ice cream sandwiches. I made ice cream and cookies.

Put them together, wrapped them for a little party I'm throwing. Yeah. I love ice cream sandwiches. I know, man. good. All right, we're going to take another quick break, but when we come back, inspirational posters created for teachers by a teacher. I'm Guy Raz, and hopefully we've got the answers here on the advice line. Stick around. You're listening to How I Built This Lab. Hey, welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. And today, I'm taking calls with Jamie Siminoff.

He's the founder of Ring, which is perhaps most famous for its video doorbell. Jamie, what do you say? Let's bring in our last caller. Hello, Guy. Hello, Jamie. Hi. Hello, hello. Tell us, please introduce yourself. Tell us your name where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. I'm Francesca Thompson from Atlanta, Georgia, the founder of Thrive 12. It is an educational resource company designed to support teachers with cool tools and products to use in their classroom.

And we're laser focused on diversity because we understand that every student matters. Awesome. And what's your question for us today? So I am at the point where I'm transitioning from my teacher pay teacher site to actual storefront on Amazon. And I want to know at this stage, should I be focused on the different certifications that you can get like women's own small business certifications, minority women's business certification? Because with Amazon, they actually do have some support for minority businesses. but I'm not sure if I need to do that right now. All right, we'll get your question in a moment.

Let me ask you first a bit about the business. So if I understand it correctly, you make posters like for classrooms that are like inspirational posters, sort of, right? Correct. They're very inclusive. They look like students that I teach, my black and brown students. I have posters. You're a teacher? Yes, I am.

Your teacher in Atlanta? Well, I'm in Gwinnett County Schools. It's the largest school district in Georgia. Oh, cool. What do you teach? So I was teaching entrepreneurship. Oh, awesome. Nice.

But now I'm more of a career coach and I help the teachers with developing their classes. Got it. Okay. And these posters right now are digital only. Like you buy it and then you down. Like I'm clicking on one. It says like I chat, I tweet, I post, I study. It's two bucks.

You've got another one. It's a woman. on the poster says lead, serve, Excel, and it's two bucks. And so you download it, and then you are responsible for printing it and putting it up. Yes. Okay. And so I want to have physical posters now that I can ship directly to teachers in school districts. Cool.

All right. We'll get your question a moment. Jamie, I'm sure you've got some questions for Francesca. I guess is there a market? I mean, I'm not a teacher. So, like, what would be the market for this? Are teachers always looking for these things or how are they looking? So we have our classrooms in every year during the summertime when we come back, like right now,

we're always looking for products to decorate our classrooms. And so a lot of school districts give you a little small budget to use to buy products for your classes. And then a lot of teachers actually have to fund that stuff themselves. But we're always looking for things to change our classroom space, definitely things for the holidays as well. where always teachers just love to decorate. And the idea here is really to like to inspire kids with these posters. And I mean, there are different kinds of people, right? They're different as kids.

Like some kids will see these posters and it just won't resonate. But have you had the experience where kids will see a poster like this and something will just click in their head? Like, yeah, I'm going to like I'm looking at a poster says trust your ability. And it's a disabled man kicking a soccer ball. Yeah. Like, have you seen kids just, like, I don't know, just respond to these things in ways that surprised you? Yes.

One of the posters, if you see, is of an African-American student with a drone. And that's probably been one of my most popular ones because, one, the kids look at the poster and they see him. And then they're like, what is that? You know, it just is something that inspires them to look into that product and see if they can learn how to use and fly drones as well. So that one always gets the attention of our students. And you design all these posters yourself? Yes, I do. All right. The price point is really low, right? I mean, they're like $2, $3. Yeah. So you're going to have to do a lot of volume to build a sustainable business. But I imagine you have a different plan in the future. I'd be curious to hear what your vision is because

you're an entrepreneurship teacher. So I know you've got a five-year plan. Tell me, tell us about it. So it's that low because I'm saying at the price point of most products that are on teacher pay teacher sites because they're downloading it and they're responsible for. But once I move to my storefront, Amazon storefront, it is going to definitely, I can see those posters ranging anywhere from $15 to $19. And then hopefully eventually I'll roll out our games as well. And do you see this long term only for schools? This is, you know, for like nonprofits or for businesses. And, you know, like, remember successories? Like, back in the day, that was like the OG.

You'd go into like a warehouse. And it would be like teamwork and it would be like a giant soaring eagle and it would say, you know, like strength or something. Right. And that was a thing. And some offices still have that. I mean, are you, do you see this kind of product of something like that? Well, I mean, you know, I was only thinking schools. But now that you've said that, I think that is definitely a great idea.

Because I'm thinking all the school districts in the United States and just all the teachers that would definitely benefit. But like you said, different companies could definitely benefit from the product as well. I mean, even just like people buying it for their kids' rooms. You're right. That's a good, really good idea. That's why, like, as I'm thinking about it, it is an interesting. Like, I kind of love it. The drone, like one, like just like I love how that resonates.

Yeah. Because I do think there's things that kids don't realize they can. do. And if you can just, it's like sparks. You're just going to spark them in the right direction now because with the internet and everything else, like you can find your way. It's just, but you need that ignition point. Yeah. And when I think about like some of my students, like some of my students with disabilities, just to see something like that on the wall that represents them and they never have seen anything like that, that just makes them, you know, feel really good about themselves. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Barbie just launched a Barbie with Downson. Yeah. A Downson.

Syndrome, I saw that. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. So it's things like that that we kind of take for granted. We don't realize that these things are really needed and that it really will help a student out. As you start to do this more and increase the price, I also wonder if you can find people that have made it, whether it's an engineer at Amazon or someone and make them the poster. Oh, yeah.

You know, it gives it a little bit more, I don't want to say authenticity, but there's something about it that like a little paragraph on the bottom. A real person. Yeah. Like this is Dr. blah, blah, blah, who grew up in this and now is this. I love it. To your question, Francesca, about, so your question is like, should I gain access to

certifications like the women own small business certification or minority business certification? First of all, how much work is it to get a certification? Is it something that takes months? Is it a lot of paperwork? So there is some paperwork involved in the, biggest thing is that some of these certifications, they're fees. And right now, with me being at this early stage and trying to, you see, you saw my products are two and three and four and five dollars right now. So I'm trying to see if it's something I should fit in right now or can that be something I can

look at later and then add on. I just don't know if I want everything to be perfect when we finally launch our store, but is it something that I need to do right now? I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I have a thought about this and I'd be curious here, your take, Jamie, which is we are living at a moment in time where just getting attention for anything is so much harder because it's an information tsunami, right? And we hear this on the show all the time. You know, 10 years ago, if you launched through influencers on Instagram, you could get a lot of traction. 15 years ago, if you bought ad search on Google, like, you could really scale a business. today it's so much harder to convert customers through social media. We're hearing that so much. Jamie, you guys, you may have experienced it even a ring at the time when you were still there.

It's just harder to break through. And so my first response when you ask, should I be certified, is if this is going to give you some advantage, if this is going to position your business in a way that otherwise you might not get that kind of exposure, my answer is yeah, absolutely. But of course, the calculation is, is it going to take a lot of time? Is it going to be really expensive? Or is it something that is, you know, modestly affordable? Like maybe it might cost a few hundred bucks. And it might take you a week. Then I would say, yeah, absolutely. Like if Amazon is a program that they're going to say, yeah, we're going to put this out in front of more people or other platforms are going to say, hey, you know, Francesca's business qualifies under this program we're doing. I've would say go for it. Jamie, what do you think? I think it's exactly right. I think just be very tactical about it in terms of like if it's going to return a thousand dollars and it costs a hundred, do it. If it's going to return a hundred and it costs a thousand, it's not worth it. I think right now in your business. Okay. Because I think you're like, listen, you're authentic, the product's authentic. It's like all of these things are there. So unless there's something

that's going to give you the return, I don't think a certification, I don't think the teacher you're looking at your products, is going to say, wait a second, is this certified? Yeah. But at the same time, if Amazon's going to give you more advertising dollars or some access to something, and they do, I've seen those programs, it's great, take advantage of it. They're there for the reason. I love it. Like, use them all you can.

Yeah. They help you with Amazon. It's like customer engagement. They help you with the virtual bundling and things like that. If you get these certifications. So I just would look at it. it like, again, cost to the return of that because it's not unlimited return, but there is, those are big, pretty big advantages on Amazon. And also, you know, it, you know, as you know, as you know,

being a teacher trying to sell into school districts is almost impossible, like trying to sell anything to school districts. But there might, there might be an opportunity, right? You, you never know. So it seems to me, by the way, do you know how much it costs to get certified, one of these certifications? One I was looking at was around 300 bucks to file the paperwork. That seems worth the time and the price. Yeah, that's probably worth it. Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely look into that. Yeah. Guy was saying it's harder to break through. And I think it's always hard in the moment to break through. I think when we look back, we see what was breaking through. But I think what definitely happens is it changes how to break through. Yes. So it goes from Google AdWords.

the influencers, to Facebook, to Instagram, to TikTok, to whatever. And I think being aggressive and trying to find those things, I'd also look at with Amazon. There's a program with Shopify where you can tie that into your Amazon. So you could have sort of a bit of a standalone site as well, but have Amazon as the back end. So I would also look into how you could do that. Again, you have such a, like, rich media content product that you're going to want to be able to really display it and show it change it out. And then I picture there's so many people that would love to be on a poster that have made it, you know, that would represent all these different areas you're talking about.

And then kind of even them posting it and putting their poster out, like, I think they'd be so proud of that. And so that might be a way of also just creating this sort of like, what a great flywheel to create. I would also start with like, I'd start locally, right? You're in Atlanta. Just think about some cool. I mean, I just, to talk about. about representation. I mean, Topa Watanah started Calendly. He was on our show a couple years ago. Yeah. You know, born in, in, in Nigeria and is now running a billion dollar company. Like, how about a poster of a guy like that? And

it just says, you know, tech entrepreneur or, you know, I would just start locally and just contact people. Go to LinkedIn and just find people in the Atlanta area. Arthur Blank from Home Depot. Arthur Blank from Home Depot. I think there's some cool opportunities just starting locally. see if you can maybe partner with somebody, some folks who would be willing to be put on an inspirational poster. I will love it. Cool.

Francesca Thompson, the brand's called Thrive 12. Good luck. Thank you so much for calling in. Good luck, Francesca. Thank you. I'm going to get a poster, it says, with your picture on it, Jamie, and it just says, see, even you can make it.

If this guy made it, you're going to be fine. You know what's crazy is on TikTok and Instagram, on the real, people keep cutting up my shark tank and then putting like the story like in like a real it's over like a hundred million views like way over 100 oh it's crazy and it's just this like you know got denied then did this then did this and then like sold for a billion dollars now it usually says that I'm a billionaire which is when you sell your company for a billion dollars you actually don't get all of it but I appreciate that's fine yeah I mean like that's I appreciate it you know it's nice but then everyone's like hey Jamie can I get like 10 bucks yeah that's the that's the that's the

outside of it. Jamie, before I let you go, I have, I'd be curious, like, now that you have, of course, started scaled and exited the business that you built, if you could, like, go back in time to you in the garage, you know, I remember you telling a story about your wife and she was kind of, you know, she was funding, she was paying the bills. Like, she had a job and you were struggling and you were kind of really flailing and nervous. and she was like, let's take a mortgage out of her home and all this stuff. I remember you told me this story.

You cried. I do every time I think about that one, yeah. Yeah. What would you've told yourself aside from like, hey, it's going to be okay? What advice would you've given to Jamie Semenoff before anybody knew that his products would be successful? I mean, sadly it's not advice because you don't know. But if I really knew, yeah, I think just saying like it's like just keep your head down, it's going to be okay. I think that's the hardest part of entrepreneurship is you don't know it's going to be okay

because it might not be. And that's also why it's good to work on products that you care about because at least then you spend some time on something that matters. But even now, I'm back in a new business and, you know, it's very positive and I'm excited and I'm working hard. But like, you don't know where these things are going to go and how big they can get and what impact they can have. And I think that's the hardest part is that you're kind of driving through a dark

tunnel as an entrepreneur. And you just, sometimes you see a glimmer of light, but it's, it's rare to see the full light until you're very far down that tunnel. And you don't know how long the tunnel is. It could be one year. It could be seven years. It could be 30 years. It could be infinite. Yeah. And obviously, that's hard when you're in the middle of it. And it's hard when you're talking to other entrepreneurs because you can't just say like it's going to be okay, keep your head down and work. Because it's not true. Yeah. Like you could keep your head down and work hard and do the right things and not get there. Now, I think most people, if they keep their head down, hustle, work hard, focus.

Like, I do think you end up with a higher chance of making it. Yeah, and it may not be the thing that you originally intended to do. But I think you're right. In almost every case on our show and just in conversations I've had, it's like if you focus, keep your head down, work really hard, you will be led to where you need to be going. Yeah. And I think that's where your show has been.

I think if someone, to me it's the Harvard Business Review of today's generation. Thank you. It really documented what it's like. And you go back deeper than just like, oh, you became a successful entrepreneur. Congratulations. Like, what do you do now? It really does tell the story of how you get there. And I think that's, it resonates with people and gives them an understanding of what it's going to look like going through that tunnel.

Well, I hope people listen to your episode if they haven't heard it already. Jamie Seminoff, founder of Ring. Thanks so much for joining us on the device line. Thanks for having me. And by the way, if you guys haven't heard Jamie's original How I Built this episode, you have to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

We start hearing, it's like the week before Christmas. People are contacting me and saying it's not working. And their video was coming through like an old TV like tuner. Like it was like all like lines through it and just you couldn't see the picture. So most of our units are now in the field with customers that not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them. So they're basically bricks. You cannot fix the ones that people have? Yeah, you can't rewrite the software on this chip.

And so this was like the end of the world. Like this really was. Basically, the business is over. Also, since we first ran this episode, some really cool things have happened for the entrepreneurs we talked to. Vico actually debuted his ergo flex desk at CES, the biggest consumer electronics show in the world earlier this year. Ian's chocolate company is sold out for the moment, but they're gearing up for a relaunch with updated packaging and a refreshed brand. And as for Francesca, she launched her Amazon store just in time for the new school year. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show.

and if you're interested in big ideas about business and entrepreneurship, sign up for my newsletter at guyraz.com or on Substack. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com

or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with music composed by Rumptina Arablewe. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rouch. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.