How I Built This with Guy Raz - Advice Line with Joe Kudla of Vuori

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Vuori founder Joe Kudla joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they work through business challenges with three early-stage founders.Today we meet Laurie, a Florida-based physician with savings to invest back into her fashionable scrubs company. Then Brendan, who wants to bring his Irish handbags to the American luxury market. And Steve in Colorado, who’s exploring wholesale opportunities for his colorful skins for ski gloves.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [e-mail] or call 1-800-433-1298.And to hear Vuori’s founding story, check out Joe's first appearance on the show in 2023.This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges.

Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at ID.wondry.com

and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up. For my newsletter, it's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gairoz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right. Let's get to it. My guest today is Joe Kudla, the founder and CEO of Viori, one of the best known

at leisure brands out there. Joe, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much, Guy. I'm excited to be here. We're excited to have you. And if you guys haven't heard the story of Viori, we'll put a link in the show. the podcast description or you can search for Viori and how I built this on your podcast app. It's an awesome episode.

Joe, one of my favorite things about Viori is that it really failed a few times before it took off. It basically started out as a graphic t-shirt brand and that kind of fizzled out. And then you try to sell the products of guys at yoga studios and that didn't quite work. And then finally, you decided to kind of reframe the story. You kind of rebranded it as clothing for all kinds of. kinds of things, hiking, surfing, working out, running, hanging out with friends, playing with their kids. And that resonated. That's when the brand really started to take off around 2016, 2017.

Yeah. I remember you calling this pivot a Hail Mary. You were like down to your last 10 or $20,000. Why do you think that simple shift in how you marketed the product? Why do you think that worked? I think it always comes back to being intimately aware of who your customer is and what it is that you're making that connects with them in an authentic way. And so we had our ideas about who the customer was and what they would like about our product. But it wasn't until we started listening and developing that direct relationship and just hearing it from them that it became crystal clear. So I think that's the most important thing you can do in those early days is like you have to like develop this relationship with your customer and be open to acknowledging that maybe you don't have it right on the bullseye. Yeah. You know, a lot of startup brands and even some of the colors we bring on today may assume that it takes, it just takes lots and lots of money.

And in some cases that's true. If you're trying to build, you know, a car company like Tesla, you need a lot of cash, right? But in your case, I mean, I think scarcity, because you couldn't raise money. And in fact, you had raised money on previous ventures and it didn't work out and you didn't really want to take that risk with other people's money initially. And so you didn't have a lot of money to work with. But because of that scarcity, I think it forced you to make really good decisions, right? Absolutely. And those decisions have really become kind of full circle back in vogue.

You know, if you think about the businesses that our parents and our grandparents built, you know, it was about the- have venture capital. Yeah, they didn't have venture capital. It was about the fundamentals, great products, great brands, great culture, great relationships with customers, all the fundamentals. And I think we've lost a little bit of that because money got really cheap for a while. And it was really easy for founders to go out and raise a lot of capital. And, you know, it's interesting because we're seeing a little, you know, while there's still a big venture community, there's a lot of money out there, you know, in the last few years, people have become very discerning with how they invest. And so people have had to,

kind of rethink their business models a little bit. And I think those old, you know, those things that were old are very much new again, a return to profitability and generating free cash flow and all those things. Awesome. Okay. Joe, thank you for coming back onto the show to this time as an advice giver. Are you ready for our first caller? I am, yeah, excited. Let's do it. Well, let's welcome our first caller. Hello. Call it number one. Hello. Welcome. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy and Joe. I'm Lori Boge.

I'm in Miami, Florida, and I am the founder of Green Cloud Apparel, which is an elevated medical apparel line for women. Cool. And tell me what your question is today. We are at two and a half years in from opening, and we will be profitable next year. And I'm wondering what to do as we become profit. to grow. So thinking about putting it more into marketing, maybe hiring a co-CEO, maybe going for a VC. Got it. Okay. So let's start with the product. These are scrubs like medical scrubs.

Yes. And scrubs have been, I'm assuming, basically the same probably for the last 50 years, just the blue or, you know, that kind of polycotton material that just is kind of loose fitting and with the drawstring and that's it. Yes. So guys, scrubs were created by and for men solely for the operating room. I am myself a physician, and so we've just sort of stayed in that box this entire time. And it is, it's just the right time to branch out and make them fun, super comfortable, but like totally boss. So every day I go to work, it's a very important day. And I want to set that attitude and tone for the day. And when I put these scrubs on. I stand a little bit taller. I maybe speak a little bit louder. My patients notice, my colleagues notice, and it makes all the difference. Yeah. By the way, I'm seeing here, you actually served in the U.S. Army. You were your combat veteran. Yes. I know the uniform very

well from that end, too. I know what it's like. I was the only female in my group of physicians that deployed to Baghdad to serve our soldiers and Marines. Thank you for doing that. That's incredible. I spent some time there as a reporter back in the day and was at the field hospital in Ballad Air Base. I met some incredible doctors back 20 years ago. All right. Well, first of all, congratulations on your road to profitability next year. And you're going to have some profits and you want to know how to spend that money. Can you give us a ballpark of how much money we're talking about? I mean, is it under $50,000, under $25,000? It will be about $100,000 that we will, that we will. will have. And so, you know, it takes a while to figure out product and get proof of concept and find the right manufacturers and material. So that was where I was spending most of my money.

And I, along the way, I did try a few ads on meta, but I felt like I was just getting swallowed. And it was so painful to, you know, to put $2,000 for this month and just not see the return. And so I'm wondering, do I need a marketing person? Do I need a co-CEO that is more in the business world than I have been, although I've learned so much? Do I need extra help from outside? Yeah. Joe Kudla, what do you think? Well, first of all, congrats on the, like I said, the road to profitability.

That's not easy to do. So I think you have an awesome product. And what I love about you is this really does look elevated. Like, to me, this feels, you know, very different from anything I've seen before, which is awesome. You know, what we always said at Viori, we brought a new perspective to the active wear market. And I really feel like you're bringing a new perspective to the health care market. And I guess one of the questions I would have is, like, is there any roadblocks, like, at hospitals? Like, do they have dress codes at all?

Or are people free to wear? Like, there's no resistance for somebody to wear, like, an elevated look like this in a, in a hospital. No. The only roadblock may be the color. So every hospital seems to have a different color. So I get messages every day. We need seal blue. We need burgundy. And so I'm trying, but I'm also like wanting to create the colors that I love. And, you know, I recently released pinstripe. And I really wanted to add a little bit of fun. And so I'm kind of going back and forth between what hospitals require and then what would I want to do? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for that clarification. You know, those kind of things are

just important to think about, but the health care market is so big and there's so many one-off offices where people are wearing scrubs that like even if the big hospitals have, you know, color restrictions, like there's just such a massive market here. But, you know, to answer your question, you know, where to spend money to grow. You know, when I reflect back on Viori's journey, I always thought about three things. And that was like, number one, like, do I have the right people on board? And you mentioned, you know, do I need a CEO or a marketing person? For me, it was a marketing person.

Like, the number one thing we were trying to do in those early days was define an engine of growth. You know, something that you can take to investors and say, look, we have a proven recipe. And with more investment, I can go out and do this all over the country. So I think a marketing person is really helpful in thinking about that. You know, the second thing is product. I mean, product is everything in this business. You know, you just always have to be asking yourself, is the product amazing?

And make sure you are getting honest feedback. Like, is the product good enough? And if it's not, I think your best money is always going to be investing in like your supply chain and making an amazing product that people just love. You know, then it's like, okay, what is your sales and marketing strategy? And it is important that you have a presence digitally, that you're showing the community that you're building. You know, like this is something that I think women are going to get excited about. And, you know, if I reflect back on my journey at Viori, it's old fashion, but we promote product.

We identified people that live in our product. You know, for us, that's trainers and yoga teachers and Pilates instructors. For you, it's healthcare workers. And it might be difficult to do. You'd have to get creative on how to do it. but identify those influential taste makers within every healthcare office setting across your geography and seed them product, make them ambassadors of the brand. And hopefully they'll post about it on social media.

Then you have UGC that you can repost and you start to build a community around the brand. Love it. I totally agree, Joe, and I think that you have an opportunity, you know, I think about the brand Bumble. It's a completely different brand. It's a dating app, right? But how did Whitney Wolf launch that product? She went to Southern Methodist University and brought it to sorority sisters. And she had them use it. I mean, I feel like you're in Miami, there's tons of medical schools around there. I feel like one of those pathways is to get it on the bodies of female medical students. I would imagine that they have a little bit more flexibility in what they can wear. And that to me is an opportunity to really generate buzz. To me, it's about trying to get. get it onto people at the beginning of their careers. Joe, a question for you about looking for a marketing person. How would Lori go about that? I mean, she's, you know, got a really

prominent position in her field, but probably doesn't come across a lot of marketers, unless I guess you're like operating on the, in the middle of the night, you know, like, how would you find that person? You know, if it was me, I would probably be looking at companies that are in your space, maybe other scrub companies that have had. some success, even though it's, you know, maybe they're more centered right down the aisle, but they understand the market. They understand the customer. And look for somebody that's, you don't need somebody who's at a VP level. Find somebody who's young and hungry and wants to go show up at conferences and put up the booth and talk to people and has a passion for what you're

building. You know, and in the early days, you know, you might want to think about granting a little bit of stock options or some equity to somebody to motivate them to join you. I mean, in my early days, our head of marketing took a 50% pay cut to join us because she believed in what we were building and she had some skin in the game. They're not going to be co-founders technically, but they're going to be right there alongside you in these really early, formidable years. And you might want to motivate them with some upside via equity. Okay. No, that's a great idea. For sure. Lori, thank you so much, calling in. The brand is called Green Cloud Apparel, Lori Bouges.

Congrats on getting close to profitability. Thanks for calling in. Thank you so much. What a lucky day. Congratulations, Lori. Good luck. Good luck to you. Thank you. I think it's really cool. Yeah. I think she has a shot. She could really up-level the look and feel in health care. I think that would be, it's an awesome mission. And this is something that looks nice, that you could actually walk out of the hospital and maybe just go out to dinner and not have to change. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Wow, look at that outfit. That's so nice. These, these are my scrubs. Yeah. It's cool. It's like it should spark conversation, you know? And that's what I'm saying. Like, if the product is good, this should work. Yeah. I'm excited for her. I mean, think about it. 20 years ago, nobody would have worn Viori joggers to a nice restaurant. Now it's normal. Yeah. The world has changed. I mean, I think there is a return in the world to people want to look. nice. They've come out of COVID and they've been living in, you know, casual clothing. And,

like, they want to look good, but they still want to be comfortable. Like, nobody is walking away from comfort. But figuring out ways to merge, like, the feeling of a sweatpants with, like, a more elevated look, I think has a lot of potential. So I think she's right on the bullseye. Yeah. Okay, Joe, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, an Irish luxury handbag maker trying to create an international brand. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. My guest today is Joe Kudla, founder of Viori. All right, Joe, let's take our next caller.

Hi, Guy. Hi, Joe. Welcome. Tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. So I am Brendan McAvoy. I'm calling from Ireland. I am the co-founder of my name is Ted. and my name is Ted our Ireland's first heritage luxury handbag brand. It was inspired by my grandfather, Ted Carberry, who made leather bags using his mouth and left hand in the 40s, 50s and 60s. Okay, a million questions for you, but before I get to them, what question do you have for us?

So we're finding a challenging to scale the business internationally with international retailers, US retailers, and we'd love to hear from you guys on how you feel the best next move would be to try and scale sustainably, but also at a really good level to make an impact to the business. Okay, cool. Let's start with this story. So your grandfather was a leather craftsman who sewed using his mouth? So he was originally a saddler, and in 1959 he lost his speech, his memory,

and the use of his right-hand side. He had a stroke? He'd a stroke and complications during that. but he had 11 kids, so he had to find a way to get back on the saddle, excused the pun. So he thought himself while getting treatment on how to make small leather goods, satchels, really useful products, and was very successful, had two workshops, had some wholesale accounts, and everybody kind of went to him, whether it was you wanted roller skates fixed or you wanted something for somebody starting school, etc. So, wow. So you came across a story about your grandfather.

inspired you to start a business around leather goods. And I'm looking at your website and mainly what you saw are handbags. They're beautiful handbags. I mean, tell me about how you even came up with the design or how you even start. Because now I see you make them and they're made in Italy and they're handmaid. How did you get to square one? So by being patient, by allowing the thought of how do we start here. So the fact that Ted crossed from right-handed to left-handed to make his product,

and get through life. Our product initially was a men's product, we thought. But actually more women bought it than men either for themselves or men. So it was like satchel's briefcases that would convert to backpacks, so cyclists could, commuters could use them. But very formal, the CEO of Irish Fashion Council compared them to Hermes at one point. So really high end. But 80% of our customers were women.

And they were saying, when are you going to do some ladies' handbags? And through a chance piece of inspiration, on a rainy night in Dublin sitting in traffic, I got the inspiration for the doorbag collection. And that just elevated the brand at a totally different pace than what was happening with the wallets and briefcases and satchels. Oh, yeah, so to clarify, because I'm looking at the site, the doorbag, it's this sort of brass buckle on the bag that looks like doorframe.

Like, if you've ever gone to anybody listening, if you ever go to Ireland, you always see these posters of like the doors of Dublin, right? Or the doors of Ireland and it's like a bunch of doors. So cool. And this is like a door, a beautiful brass doorframe as sort of the logo on the bag. Is that a fair description?

That is a perfect description. And it was like sitting there looking at the doors. They all looked that they were built at the same time but tell totally different stories. And that just led me to think, wow, why has nobody incorporated a door into a bag? You open and close them. You secure your belongings.

You live in them. Everybody has a door that is nostalgic or creates good memories for them. So it's kind of like the Henry Ford model. It's any type of bag as long as it's inspired by a door is where it's ended up going. You're selling in like boutiques throughout Ireland? Yeah. So we would be seasonally in like Brown Thomas, which is like Saks Fifth Avenue, burked off that type store. we have a number of five-star hotels which are excellent for us in their boutiques so lots of tourism

does really well so dromolon castle trump dune bag amongst others and then we've some boutiques we did go to new york to coterie back a year and a half ago and we met some boutiques there and we've had good success with them from philadelphia boston new york to sell through as being good they're continuously reordering. But yeah, we want to try and scale that side some more. So you're trying to figure out how to get more retail partners in the U.S. and beyond. Joe, let's bring in the expert, Joe Kudla. What do you think?

I mean, first of all, this is just so cool. So congratulations. I love the novelty of your product. I love the heritage. I mean, you have something that I wish that we had, you know, at Viori. And that's just this connection to this heritage, this story. It's really awesome. And so I do have a couple questions.

And I'm just curious, like, who do you perceive your competition to be? Is this? Because I think it plays into distribution in the U.S. in a big way. And I'm not an expert at the luxury market. I want to disclaim that. But I'm curious, like, do you see this as like a Louis Vuitton-Armes competition? Or do you see this as more of like an accessible luxury? I see the price point.

Like Kate Spade. Yeah. Yeah. Because the price point is closer to Kate Spades, maybe a little bit higher. Yeah. So we work for Eileen. And where we want to be is we want to be that when anybody is considering rewarding themselves with a luxury purchase that we come into the reckoning.

So whether that is Loeve, Gucci, Chanel, et cetera, we want to be in the thought process. But like Kate Spade, Anya hint March. would be price point-wise where we would be in that space. Yeah. Yeah, I ask because, you know, we do business with Nordstrom. We don't do business with Neiman Marcus or Sacks or, you know, those kind of higher-end wholesale partners. But, you know, I'm a student of retail. And so one of the things that I've heard is like, you know, at Neiman Marcus, for example,

it's like a war. Like these luxury brands are at war for space. you know and and and so if your neiman marcus's buying group you're looking for if you're going to give space to a brand they need it to be at a $3,500 price point because they're going to move those units so you're going to have I think a harder time at those accounts um at the price point you're at so I think aligning price point in distribution is really important I think whereas Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's this feels very approachable and very aligned so I think just getting clear on that and like who your competitive set is and and aligning your pricing strategy with that

in the U.S. is going to be really important. But even at Nordstrom and Bloomingdale's, you know, it's it is a competitive space and, you know, but that's that's all a peril. We're all in a competitive space. When I entered the market at Viori, people were like, how are you going to compete with Nike or Lulu Lemon or Adidas? Like the market is so crowded and we had to figure it out. And so what I reflect on is our journey, it was really about building a community. Like if we wanted to get the attention of, you know, Nordstrom and REI, which are two of kind of our larger national partners, they weren't going to just buy it without a lot of brand awareness and put it in their store and assume it would sell through.

We did get a small test. We sold into five doors at Nordstrom, and it didn't do well, you know. And it didn't do well because we were just too early. early to market. And we hadn't built a community around the brand. We didn't have like a group of advocates and influencers and celebrities that were really getting behind it. We weren't showing up in the media in a meaningful way. So they liked the product, but they didn't give it the preferential merchandising. And it didn't really sell that well. So we were just kind of waffling along. And it wasn't until we really started to build our direct community. And once the, and once

Once Nordstrom saw that, they got really excited about what we were doing. They could see the potential. And then they got their executive team involved and they wanted to get behind it. And that just meant that unlocked the power of their marketing. It unlocked better positioning in their stores. And it was like night and day. Like selling into an account that has your back and wants to see you succeed versus an account that's like, you know, yeah, we'll try it.

It's a very different thing. And so I would always start with your community and make sure that, like, you're starting with press, creating that demand so that there's pull through at these accounts. I really believe in product seeding, you know, getting your product on the right, influential people, and letting that create hype and momentum and excitement. And then you will get the attention of those bigger specialty accounts in the United States. Joe, I also feel like there's an argument to be made about location here. And you know this well because you started Vore in Southern California.

Southern California is where trends begin in the United States and then internationally, New York as well. But I think when you talk about hotels, you've got to be at, you know, the boutique at Casa Del Mar in Santa Monica. Or, you know, Fianna Hotel in Miami. You know, this is where, like, massive celebrities go and stay. And they will stop in those shops. And I feel like that's a small, marginal. tactic, but it could actually be, you know, much, much more impactful than taking out Facebook ads. I don't know. What do you think about that, Joe? I agree. I mean, I think wholesale is a very good channel. I think, you know, advertising online is just is challenging. It's hard to cut through in today's environment. So I really am a much bigger believer in the right wholesale partners, the right activations at those wholesale partners to build awareness and getting the staff excited. and press and influencer strategy to build excitement and community around the brand and then really create hype and then then you start getting the attention of the bigger accounts but I'm a hundred percent a big believer in that I think it is important that you geographically look at where you want to be I think Los Angeles Miami has become a very influential market in the US and then New York you know I would I would really focus your attention on those three markets that's amazing advice and I love the idea because we're very much a

step-by-step business. You need to be able to measure it. You need to be able to ensure they're going in where you're trying to get to. And bite-sized chunks. So you can say we're going to be bigger than the Beatles in the US, right? But it's how do you start? So really breaking it down. So thanks so much for

that advice. All right. Cool. Brendan McAvoy, my name is Ted. Beautiful bags. Congrats on where you are and good luck. We're going to be following you. Guy, Joe, thank you both so much. Hopefully as this evolves, I'll be buying your lunch in the U.S.

sometime because I owe you on. Keep up the great inspiration. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Brandon. Good luck. I love what you're doing. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Guy.

Thank you. Yeah, really, really cool handbags. So, but as you know, Joe, building a brand, especially a luxury brand, is hard, you know, when you're building it from scratch. You know, you look at these brands like Hermes and Prada and Gucci. I mean, they've been around. So, I mean, Hermaz has been around for over 100 years. And even brands like,

Chanel, which are post-war brands, and they've been around for 50, 60, 70 years now. So it takes time to build that, you know, that luxury idea in a consumer's mind. It does. And that's what, you know, I was going back to price point and understanding like what market are you going after. I think it's really important. You know, Chanel, Dior, Louis Vuitton, all of those brands that you think about in the luxury quadrant of your brain. I mean, they, they, they, sell at quite high prices. And that really is like if someone wants to reward themselves and they're really thinking luxury, it's a $3,500, $4,000 bag. I think there's a, there's a whole other marketplace in affordable or more accessible luxury that's a big market. And so I think being

really clear on what you're going after, because that might be a different strategy. Yeah. And so much of it is about finding the right people to put that bag on. Absolutely. All right, Joe, we're going to take another quick break, but when we come back, stylish skins for your mittens and gloves. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. Today, I'm taking calls with Viori founder, Joe Kudla. Joe, let's bring on another caller. Hello, how are you?

Hello, that's, I believe that's Steve, right? Steve, can you introduce yourself? Tell me where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Sure, yeah. So my name is Steve Bright. I'm calling from Golden Colorado. And my business is skittins. We make skins for mittens and gloves. And these are primarily designed for skiers and snowboarders. All right. Cool. And what's your question? So we're a small business. We just launched this past September. And we're looking for advice on how to scale. We're wondering if we should continue with direct-to-consumer sales or if we should pursue more wholesale opportunities where you're going to be. We might increase our volume and our visibility, but at the expense of significantly cutting into our margins. All right. Perfect question for Joe. Before we get to your question, a couple of questions for you, Steve. Can you kind of describe what are skins? I mean, these are, so they're not ski gloves. What are they?

Yeah. So they're made of a blend of recycled polyester and spandex. So similar to the type of fabric you might have from a performance cycling jersey. They slide over your glove or mittens. So we're not replacing your glove. glove or mitten, you keep that. And it's basically a fabric that you put on to change the outer appearance of your glove or mitten. And is there functional besides just looking cool? Do they keep your hands warmer? Or is there anything else they do? Yeah. So we have two lines. We have a, we have our graphic design collection. And those have these fun, you know, high visibility colors, just to change the appearance of your glove or mitten. And then we have our trail map skittins. and these have the trail map directly printed onto the fabric.

So when you put them on over your glove, you literally have the trail map in the palm of your hand while you're skiing at all times. Oh, so you would obviously work with ski resorts, specific resorts, to have the trail map on those skins. Yeah, we have licensing from bail resorts, and so we have seven of their trail maps on our skins. Cool. How did you start this business?

Are you in apparel? Were you? No. What's your day job? I'm an ER doctor. Wow. Okay. Amazing.

So how did you do, how did you even like do it? Did you like sew together your first? I mean, you're probably not bad at sewing, right? Because you're sewing up skin, you know, stitches. So did you like sew your first prototype? Yeah. So I hand sewed my first prototypes and they looked awful. It was like a skinny sock puppet.

So I asked my mother-in-law to teach me how to use a sewing machine. And I was able to sew the body of the skittin pretty well, but I couldn't get the thumb right. Because we're sewing it inside out and there's a couple pieces of fabric. And it just felt like this kind of like a brain teaser, Mensa question. I couldn't get it right. And so I decided to take the thumb off. And with the thumb off, it allowed for a much more universal fit. So it was actually better for the skittin.

First of all, I'm a huge skier, and so I love what you're doing. And number two, I bought a sewing machine when I was in my 20s, and I deconstructed my favorite t-shirt, and I bought some fabric, and I learned how to make t-shirts. And it was so funny because, like, your comment on the thumb, it just reminded me of, like, I could not get the sleeves right. I could do, I could get the body, so I could do like a great muscle tea, but I just couldn't figure out how to sew the sleeves. Don't you feel, Joe, don't you feel like an ER doctor should be a good sower?

Well, it's close to home because I just got my foot stitched up, and so I watched him do this. Yeah, I mean, I guess you're using staples sometimes, but you're, you know, I mean, you could probably, like, sew up a kernel of corn if you had to. Like, you've got a steady hand. It's true. Well, the materials we use in the ER are a little different than our sewing machine. Fair enough, fair enough. All right. Right now, you're selling these direct-to-consumer.

So it's just a word of mouth, right? Just whoever knows you guys or maybe have you taken some Facebook ads out or anything? Yeah, we did a couple rounds of Facebook and Instagram ads. They didn't do too much. What's been better for us is giving them away or actually just going out and skiing. Every time I go up on a chairlift, someone comments on them. So I now tend to look for the busiest chair. If it's a six-person chair and there's five people, I want to be on.

that chair. And just talk about them. Yeah, I mean, they bring it up. I don't even have to. Yeah, because you're on like a 10, 15 minute ride with strangers and people are like, oh, where are you from? Where are you from? How's the conditions today? Yesterday was better. And but now you can say, people are like, what are those things in your mitt on your gloves? Yeah, I mean, no one has seen these before. And so I usually have to explain that this is a skin and this is a new product. How much money have you guys put into this so far? So a big chunk of our of our budget has been pursuing a patent. So we put in about total of $35,000 and probably 75% of that has been legal fees for the patent here and abroad. And by the way, what are they selling for?

How much does a pair of these skins cost? So we sell them for 35. And we're actually making them here in Denver. So we found a manufacturer here in Denver. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So we're trying to keep it local and small and fun. But we are, you know, wondering if it's, if it makes sense to continue here in Denver or to go abroad. So, all right, the question is, like, how do they scale, Joe? Like, should they focus entirely on D to C, as they're doing now? Should they pursue wholesale? So let's dive in.

Yeah, I'm happy to provide thoughts. And it reminds me of our journey because, you know, when we launched, we thought that wholesale would be our kind of initial entry to the market. And then it turned out that, you know, we didn't have the awareness and some. through was really tough, and our strategy was a little flawed. And then it wasn't until we pivoted to direct-to-consumer that we got out of the gate. So I'm a big believer in the direct-to-consumer model. However, I also recognize that one strategy that worked 10 years ago does not necessarily mean that it'll work today. And the landscape has changed dramatically. I think you just mentioned,

you know, you'd spend a little bit of money on some Facebook ads. It wasn't really moving the needle. And so when you start a business, awareness is one of your biggest challenges, right? Nobody knows who you are. And so I think a thoughtful wholesale strategy where you show up in great accounts can help build a lot of trust. When your product sits alongside some of the great ski brands, it builds a trust with the consumer. And I think that's really important.

I'm a big believer in less is more initially, sell into a few wholesale accounts and really be present. Like show up, develop relationships with the staff on the floor, get your product on them so they're wearing it. And then they get excited about it and want to talk to customers about it. You know, do events, show up and do promotions at the shop. And you'll watch your customer behave. You'll see what other products they're buying. You'll develop a more intimate understanding of who they are. And that can really serve you, you know, in all channels that you expand to in the future. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think that this is a product that has to be next to the cash register at a ski shop or, you know, on a display somewhere

or near the, near the gloves. I mean, you know, you can imagine, like, seeing this as a, as sort of an impulse purchase, right? But I do think it's something that you want to see in like, both at the ski shop, but even at a place like Zumi's, you know, these, these sort of surf and sport shops in shopping malls, really, as it seems like you're doing, really leaning into the graphic designs. I mean, the trail maps are cool, but that's only going to be a product at Breckenridge or at Vail Ski Shop or at the Heavenly Ski Shop, but really, you know, crazy designs. And Joe, this is what you did. You had a graphic T-shirt company before Viori switched into at leisure wear. But that, there was success there. People do really love interesting graphic designs on apparel. I agree. And I, you know, looking at your

product. I think it's really fun. It's irreverent. It's exciting. And so one of the things that I know you didn't ask this question specifically, but like what I would really encourage you to think about is how you're building a community around this product. And like your number one marketing channel should be product promo. You know, you should be making these and just getting them out on influential people, people that are out having fun on the mountain. Just get product on people. Get UGC. user-generated content. Share it back on social. Share it on your website. like really like demonstrate the power of the community that's coming together around this product. And then, you know, that'll really help sell through at wholesale.

Yeah, we're going to partner with a couple artists and get their art on the skittins. And what's unique about the skittins is we've got four panels. So two on the palm and two on the back. And we're going to have them design one design where when you put your hands together on your palm, you have one continuous design. And when you turn your hands over, you'll have another continuous. design. Oh, that's cool. And then the artists are going to get a percentage of those sales as well. So I think this next season, our designs are definitely going to be elevated.

We've had these stories on the show where it's, you know, there's a seasonal product, like Zumi's, you know, and then they sort of say, well, maybe we need to think about how we can sell these year round or a product that, you know, is there a world where you, I don't know, where you bring back like the finger gloves, you know, like a skin for like skateboarding or cycling or something like that? Or do you want to really focus on winter sports? Yeah, I think for now, since we're so small, and this is all new to us, we're going to focus primarily on skittins. But we do have other ideas about, you know, could you make a skin for a hat or skin for shoes, something where, you know, it is more year-round.

Yeah. It's exciting to think about the possibilities because, you know, to guys point, there's a lot of applications for these. But I do think it's really important to stay really focused in the early days, you know? Yeah. But you think, Joe, he's got to be in shops. He's got to be in the stores, especially ski shops. I think it's really important. I think it's very expensive to build a brand just purely direct to consumer.

I mean, if it was me, I'd be selling into wholesale. I'd take an allocation of that to start building my awareness online through some ads, very, very targeted. But I would only do that if I'm really specific about who that aspirational customer is. you're not marketing to the person that's buying your product necessarily. You're marketing to that aspirational customer that's influential to the people that are maybe more commercially buying it. So get clear on who that is, spend a little money on targeting them on social, but then build the brand at wholesale. And would it be okay if we went into wholesale where we're almost breaking even

or even at a loss? Is that okay to do that if we're building the brand or should be focused much more on direct to consumer if that's generating much more of a sustainable profit. I think it always depends on your capital situation, you know, and what's tough in the early days when you're produced, I know you're making your products right there in Denver. You know, I would always encourage entrepreneurs to build a cost structure to their business that is scalable. And so while you may not want to go overseas, I mean, so many of the competitors that you're going to be competing with for shelf space are made overseas.

is what empowers you to go out and market the brand and build a community. And so if your cost structure doesn't support you selling into wholesale, I would be looking really closely at that to see if there's a new supply chain that could give you that margin that would make it more appealing. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Cool. Steve Bright, the brand is called Skittins. Good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you so much. Thanks, Steve. Good luck. Thank you. Thank you. Joe, thanks so much for coming on today. Did you get a little nostalgic, thinking about talking to these people and thinking about like or did you get back to like a traumatic place in your mind or you're like oh my god i don't want to relive that yeah absolutely i mean going

back in time and just you know i love talking to founders that are in these early stages because i mean i just i'm such a fan of the human spirit and the resilience and the devotion that it takes to to break through i mean it is not easy i just think about all those things that Now I don't think about raising money, you know, like, you know, setting up your margins. It's like it's all so, it feels like a long time ago, but, but I can so easily go back and just remember, oh my gosh, I remember when I was grappling with that. And so anyway, I'm just, I'm rooting them all on because I just, I think there's nothing quite like the entrepreneurial journey to just teach you a lot about yourself.

It's a really, it's unlike anything else. Yeah. And by the way, if you guys. haven't heard the Viori episode you have to go back and check it out you can find a link to it in the podcast description here's one of my favorite moments from that interview you know I think some people saw the opportunity but maybe questioned whether I was really going to be the guy that was able to go and do this and disrupt this space you know a lot of meetings were short and there was a lot of passes yeah I developed a really unique relationship with rejection and so that was all building my

backbone up for trying to raise capital for an apparel because it was kind of like starting a band and telling your friends you're going to be the next Rolling Stones. People are like, yeah, good luck. Thank you so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to sign up for my newsletter. You can sign up for that for free at guyraz.com. And every week we put in tons of insights from entrepreneurs, my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever, including Joe Kudla.

If you are working on a business and you would like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions that you'd like help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondry.com or call 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arableu. He was edited by John Isabella and our office. audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. Howard,

Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.