How I Built This with Guy Raz - Advice Line with Niraj Shah of Wayfair

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Wayfair co-founder Niraj Shah joins Guy on the Advice Line to answer questions from three early-stage entrepreneurs about how to bet on themselves – and define themselves to consumers. Plus, Niraj explains why Wayfair is expanding into large-format brick-and-mortar stores.First up, Valerie in Washington, D.C., is looking for a better way to educate consumers about her dehydrated chicken stock. Then, Bree in Utah wants to know when to seek investment in her improved mineral sunscreen brand. And finally, Tess in San Antonio is wondering if she should quit her day job and go all-in on her networking and accommodation app for solo women travelers.Thank you to the founders of Cookstix, Daily Shade, and HerHouse for being a part of our show.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [e-mail] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to go back and listen to Niraj’s original episode from 2018, where he shares how he and his college roommate Steve Conine turned 250 single-product websites into one giant billion-dollar brand.This episode was produced by Alex Cheng with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com and on Substack.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on this show who will help me try to help you.

And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me today is Neeridge Shaw, CEO and co-founder of Wayfair. Neeridge, welcome back to the show. Guy, thanks for having me. excited to be here. You were first on the show back in 2018, a long time ago. And it's an amazing story told us about how you and your college roommate, Steve, co-founded all these businesses together out of college when you guys are in your 20s.

And then you came up with the idea of launching hundreds of separate websites. You had dinnerplates.com. You had racks and stands.com. You had just shagg rugs.com. You even told us about a website that you had where you sold birdhouses, only birdhouses. And then grandfather clocks. Amazing. Just all these different businesses.

selling just those things. Exactly. That's kind of what led to creating Wayfair. We sort of ended up working our way through all of home goods, one category at a time. We ended up with, as you said, over 200 websites. And then we thought the big opportunity would be to be known as a destination for all those categories rather than having them in separate sites. Yeah. Then that's when, you know, 10 years into the business in 2011, we launched Wayfair.com. And if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it, the original episode from 2018 in the show notes. It's really, really an awesome. awesome episode. Neurge, we have not talked. I don't think we've talked to you since or checked in with you in a bunch of years. You are still with Wayfair. You're still the CEO. Steve, your co-founder is also with the company's co-chairman. How do you guys make it work 27 years of working together? And I think you first met each other like a summer high school, right? Like a long time ago.

Yeah, so it was a program actually at Cornell where we went to college between junior and senior years of high school. crazy. Yeah. What's the secret? I mean, why, you know, there's so many, we've done a bunch co-founders, and we've done co-founder splits, and, you know, what do you think it is that makes it work? Well, I think what we've found is that we've both always been drawn a little bit to different areas of the business. So Steve's always been very involved with the technology side of our business, and we've always been very technology-oriented as a company. And then I've always been drawn a little more to the business side, but then we both really respect each other's business judgment. And so it's been a very easy partnership as we got into it. Ultimately, you know,

you need to find somebody who's just a great partner, meaning you have to be interested in doing complementary things, but then you really need to trust each other's judgment and be a team that way. And I don't know that there's always an entire science in figuring that out. It's an art and science thing, both. And there's luck, too. Exactly. I wonder how you, you mean, your big brand, Waifer is huge. How do you stay ahead of the competition? even not just from the big retailers and online, you know, giants, but from startups that are starting to scale. So we try to combine what I'd say is the best of two worlds. So one is we have enough scale to have, you know, a 2,500 person technology team. And we have

enough scale to have a 25 million square foot logistics network that's warehouses and transportation delivery operations. And how many warehouses all over the U.S.? In our network, I think we probably have something like 17 or 18 warehouses that are like a million square feet each. So these are really, really big facilities. Then we have something like 75 smaller buildings, which are the transportation terminals from which the trucks that would deliver the large items to someone's home go out from every day. So I think what we're trying to do is combine the benefits of scale. Those are like two examples of the scale. The third would be the fact that we spend over a billion dollars on advertising a year with what is a much more entrepreneurial

and sort of startup type mentality in how we drive the business. And so when you can couple sort of the resources of a bigger business, but with the agility and the ambition of a smaller business, I think you can get sort of the special thing, which just lets you move fast and do big things both. And then we stay focused on home goods. So what we don't do is let ourselves get distracted by starting to do too many things, because home goods is over half a trillion dollars between the four countries we operate in. And so then all of a sudden we have the specialist benefit versus the Amazon's and the Walmarts of the world. And we have the scale benefit versus the upstarts who maybe are focused on the same exact market as us,

but they don't have the ability to do the same things for the customer when you talk about technology resources or you talk about the logistics needs, et cetera. You've done something interesting in the last, I think, year, which is you opened your first brick and mortar store in Illinois, outside of Chicago, I think, and then you're planning on opening another one in Atlanta and New York and Denver.

I mean, you were early online retailers back in the day where people were still scared to give their credit cards in the internet back in like 2005 and six, tell me about going into physical retail stores. We're super excited about it. And you're exactly right. We opened our first large format Wayfair store a year ago in May. It's in Wilmet, which is in the northern suburbs of Chicago. It's 150,000 square feet. So to give you a sense, like that's a very large format store. And what we're able to do there is showcase all the product categories so that for customers, when they come there and they can see the entirety of what Wayfair can offer.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, just to put the perspective, that's like the size of a Costco. Yes. It's enormous. It's very big. But that's kind of what it takes to really showcase all the categories we're in. And for the customer, they want that type of experience. Because if you're buying a sectional, you need to see a variety of sectionals.

And then if you're looking at bathroom faucets, you need to see a variety of those. And what we found is that the store works great because people know who Wayfair is from the fact that we've been around for a while and we have scale and we average. But the ability now to work with someone who can help give you design guidance or, you know, if you want to pursue financing for a project or if you want to work with a kitchen cabinet designer, we can do all those things in person. So it makes the brand come to life in a whole new way. And that's why, as you said, we have a pipeline of additional stores coming. Yeah. Neerj, you're ready to take some calls?

Absolutely. Excited to. All right. Awesome. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Naird Shaw, co-founder of, of course, Wayfair. Please tell us your name where you're calling from.

And just one line about your business, please. Hi, Guy, and Nairage. I'm Valerie's Weig. I am calling in from Washington, D.C. I'm the co-founder of Cooksticks, which is a new way to stock your pantry. Our instant stock sticks replace wasteful cartons and chemical-laden bullion with a clean, convenient, and delicious stock option for home cooks. All right, welcome to show, Valerie.

So, so Cooksticks, what is it? It's a chicken stock. describe it. Yeah, it's dehydrated chicken stock. So we're calling it an ingredient line because while we are starting with chicken stock, we will expand into other ingredients. It's really just, we're starting with three dehydrated chicken stocks. Okay, so instead of buying the like box of chicken stock, if you do use that, you just buy yours and you mix it with hot water and you've got the stock. Exactly. We, my co-founder and I, my cousin, Terran Pelicone and I started a chicken soup business about nine years ago in D.C. We have a chicken soup deluxe. We have a chicken soup

delivery business called prescription chicken. We have chicken soup in national grocery stores as well. And through our time, we spent a lot of time shipping liquid across the country. Yeah, it's heavy, expensive. It's all of that. Not good for the environment, right? Yeah. And we happen to also be avid home cooks. And we know the importance of sort of great chicken stock, but we, you know, we have a busy life. And we would sometimes lean on those boxes of chicken stock. And, you know, we would sort of talk and both open our fridges and say, gosh, there's yet another box of chicken stock that I used most of it, and it's wasting in my fridge. And we said, you know, there's got to be a better way for this. And so we said, you know, why does it have to come liquefied? Why can't we just provide

a product that you add water, use exactly what you need? And cooksticks was born. And then make your risotto or or make your soups or whatever. And you can season vegetables. You can make high protein vinaigrettes. Like those sort of all sorts of things that you can do. Well, I'm a chicken stock maker, And I would use this product because in a pinch, but I always have in the freezer because I always take a chicken carcass and put in my instant pot with water. But this is a great solution for a lot of people, especially because that stock is sitting on the shelf in those cartons for who knows how long. And, you know, it's watery. It doesn't really have great flavor. And Boolean, right, is a light format product, but it's chemically and it's salty and it's not actually leaning on flavor.

Yeah, it doesn't taste real. All right, what's your question for Nourge? So, Cooksticks is an instant cooking stock, but we're discovering that retailers and shoppers are misidentifying how to use it. So we'll hear people say, oh, is it a protein beverage or, oh, you should have more protein in it. Now, despite having the word cook in the name, they don't seem to get that this has been created as an ingredient for cooking. And so we're a little stumped and would love tips on how we can message and educate both consumers and retailers that cooksticks is an innovative ingredient. So a new format for sort of a classic product and a replacement for the standard carton of stock. Interesting. Okay. Neeridge, before we answer Valerie's question,

thoughts, questions for her? Well, one question I have is, are there some specific things you tried that didn't work to help convey what it is? Or is this a new problem you're just discovering now? It's a problem. We just launched the product, so we just got to market in late June. We hit sort of Mid-Atlantic Whole Foods stores and Amazon. And it is an interesting, you know, reading a lot of the Amazon reviews and feedback, you know, you start to sort of pick up things. And it's like, okay, our initial sort of Amazon marketing, right, we missed the opportunity to communicate to people, oh, this is equal to a box of stock. And so we sort of went back to square one and made an ad that said, you know, one stick equals one box of stock. And that has helped in sort of the understanding of

product, but the sort of default is like, oh, well, this is a beverage. And it's like, well, it can be, but it's not, that's a byproduct. That's not the main point. I have a question for you. There are these packets, right, that are more like protein broths. And I have used them because I, you know, trying to get more protein in. This is not the direction you are headed or want to head in. Or is it? It's not. So really, we are competing against the box of stock. So the powdered protein beverages that are out there, they're not conducive to cooking, right? They have to be something that you want to drink, right, to get your protein.

And so it has to be something that has sort of more of an aggressive flavor profile. As you and any sort of person who cooks knows, chicken stock is not meant to be sort of the leader. It's meant to be sort of that strong foundational cooking like salt, right? It's going to help sort of elevate the rest of it. And so we want to create something that is a better box of stock. That is that thing that everybody uses in, I mean, every dish, right? All right. I have some near.

I've got a bunch of thoughts. but you are so creative with what you guys do. Please, I want to hear from you first. So this is going to sound very rudimentary. But one thing we've seen over the years, sometimes when something is novel, the best way to communicate it is to be literal. You know, on the front of it, just saying, you know, add 16 ounces of water and, you know, your chicken stock's ready to go or add 32 ounces or whatever. Because the literal, what we found with marketing sometimes when something is novel, the literal, the literal exercise. explanation is the one that just becomes intuitive to people. And then you can then go with the imagination after that. But if you don't start with the literal, it's hard to grab. It can be hard to grab. It's so true. And it's funny, you know, when you start, you work so hard on the branding and we

want the imagery and we want to catch the eye. But the reality is, is, you know, we need to shrink the cute little chicken on the front. We need to increase the instant chicken stock. So you're right. Literal is the way to go. Simple. Just communicate clearly. And your packaging does say cooking stock. instant cooking stock on it already. It does. It does have that there. I mean, look, you know this. You're, you, we've had this too with lots of products where people introduce something new and they have to educate people. I mean, I remember we did a Guayaki Yerba Mate, okay, which is now a massive brand. It is a national distribution of hundreds of millions of dollars in sales. They had to, for like 20 years, literally, they were going around door to door to festivals trying to get people to drink Yerba Mata, right? Until they just,

they hit a tipping point. This is easier because people know what chicken stock is, but maybe, as Nierich says, you have to hit people over the head with it, right? Because you are, you're teaching people how to use it every time they see it. Maybe you create a tagline like, you're carding of chicken stock, now in a stick. Well, it's funny. We were saying our tagline is think outside the stock box. Which is nice. It's cute. But again, is that too clever? It might be too clever. It's very clever. I mean, think like, I'm not as clever. I'm dumb. So just, I'm going to give you like literally like cookstick, instant stock for cooking.

Well, you say that on the package, but just something like that. I also, have you guys been doing anything on social media around, you know, how to use it or how you use it? We have, yeah. So we've been doing a lot of social media. And it's interesting, right? So we need to work more on us as founders doing our own, you know, education. Yeah. It's funny.

I mean, as a chicken soup product, we always sort of said, like, we don't want. It's not about us, right? This is about you and what you need. If you're not feeling well, we have chicken soup for you. We're not going to make it about us. However, in this type of product, it is a little bit more cooking focused. And so we do need to lead the narrative in terms of this is how you use it. This is what we use it in.

Because it is about, like, just showing how easy it is to use and getting people to also adopt it and sort of communicate that with them. Yeah. Valerie Zweig, co-founder of Cooksticks, thanks for calling in. Good luck. Thanks so much, guys. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah.

Nairge, do you do any, who does cooking at your house? Well, I dabble, but I would say my wife definitely is the much better cook. There's really no debate on that. Yeah. I'm telling you, chicken stock is like, it's like critical. It's like a critical ingredient. Seriously, you may have experienced this. If you just boil rice and water, it's just rice and water.

And if you just boil it in chicken stock, it's like 20 levels better. Exactly. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to the device line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the device line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. And today I'm taking your calls with Niroz Shah. Co-founder of Wayfair, Neerish. You ready to take the next call? Absolutely. Awesome. All right. Let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line.

Please tell us your name where you're calling from and just a line about your business, please. Hi, I'm Bree Van Lewin. I'm calling from Orham, Utah, and I'm the founder of Daily Shade Sonscreen. Daily Shade is redefining what true mineral sunscreen can look and feel like. So we launched last year in 2024 with our flagship product called Babeshade. It is designed for kids, and it's the first true mineral sunscreen for daily use that disappears like magic on their skin. So no little white ghosts running around here, guys. Bree, thanks for calling in. So brand is called Daily Shade, and I know this is a problem.

I mean, I use mineral sunscreen on my face every day, and I have a brand that does a pretty good job, but it's hard because, you know, the chemical sunscreens are great. They just dissolve into your skin. But of course, a lot of people are increasingly getting concerned about, well, do you really want that absorbing in your skin? And the mineral sunscreen sits on top of your skin, right? And that's the difference. It doesn't get absorbed by your skin as much. Yeah, you know a lot about this, which is great. So you're exactly right. My daughter had a reaction to a very popular chemical sunscreen. that was marketed for kids, quote unquote. And she just, oh, it was a terrible, terrible response. She got blisters and it was awful. So I started using, like you're saying, true mineral sunscreens, but either she would still react because it was a little bit of mineral. A lot of UV chemical filters and boosters, which the FDA doesn't require them to list.

Or I would put on a natural zinc product. And the more natural, the more zinc it had, the whiter she got. And I knew I wanted her to wear it daily, and I just, I couldn't send her out the door looking like, Kast for the ghost. right. Yeah. So I knew I had to fix it. And the challenge is that if it's a true mineral sunscreen, it's like, you know, it's like a 50s like beach movie, right? Where your face is just like, you know, you get the white nose or whatever. So it's hard. It's really hard to make it disappear. So how to tell me how you started this business. Do you have a background in skin or in health or, yeah.

I do. Yeah, I'm a physician assistant by professional training. So I practice medicine. I've been practicing for 15 years. I actually worked a little bit in facial plastic reconstructive surgery, and these young girls would come in with these awful, awful scars on their face that we were trying to do some reconstruction on from melanoma, the most dangerous form of skin cancer. Utah's the number one state in the whole nation for melanoma, actually, and it affects a lot of young girls. It's common cancer in women age 26 to 30. So when I saw this, I knew I wanted my kids to be protected because such a large portion of sun damage happens during childhood. Some studies even say as high as up to 80% of someone's sun damage during their whole life happens when they're little

before the age of 18. So I wanted my kids to wear something every day and protect their skin from the sun, but the options were terrible, to be honest with you. Mainstream sunscreens, the UV chemical filters did not work for my family. And I couldn't find a cosmetically pleasing one that didn't make them look just completely silly. Wow. So, all right. So you went in, you decided to launch your own brand, which you launched, when did you launch it? Last year. But it took us four years to create our product lines. So four years of development and R&D sunscreen is a drug, so it has to go through the FDA.

And you finance this yourself? Yes, self-funded. Super fun. And tell me about where and mostly direct-to-consumer you're selling through your website, or do you sell in stores, too? Yeah, we're all on our website, and we also sell on Amazon as well. We're in about 28 doors across the country, but nothing in a regional or national distribution quite yet. And tell me how the business has done so far. I mean, you're small. You don't have the budget for mass advertising yet, but how are you doing?

We're doing great. We sold through our first production run just about. We have a few bottles left, which is great, great place to be in. We'll be producing again this fall. And we have two new product lines coming out, a sport line and a women's line so we can protect the whole family. And so have you broken like $50,000 in sales yet? We have. Thank you for asking. We have, yeah. Nice. Okay, great. And before I forget, what's your question for us? Okay, my question is, I am fortunate enough to have an in-house cosmetic chemist, and that allows us to come up with products quickly, and I have a whole bunch of products I'd like to deliver to the world. The challenge is the cost of production is very high, and at our current growth rate, I can only sustain maybe one or two product lines a year. And then because I'm self-funded, the marketing budget is, of course, lower than I wish it was. So my question is, as a founder, what are the key indicators I should be looking for to know when it's time to seek investment and give up maybe some equity, which I really don't want to do, versus continuing to bootstrap and grow a little bit more slowly? All right.

Great questions. Niro, do you want to bring you in? What do you think? I mean, she wants to expand this thing, but she needs capital. She needs the money to do it. Yeah. In terms of selling the items, you mentioned you sell directly on your own website. you sell on Amazon. Have you discussed with any major retailers potentially carrying it? And what I was

thinking there is, you know, potentially if you have someone who likes getting in early, they might be willing to give you a purchase order for, you know, the kind of quantity they want, even if it's a modest test rollout in their sense, it could be quite a decent volume. And those purchase orders from the larger companies you can get financing against. That sometimes is a way, you know, kind of to get financing, but to your point, you're not selling equity. You're not selling equity for that. Yeah, that's a great idea. I haven't explored regional or national distribution quite yet, because I frankly can't afford it quite yet. I'm hoping my business plan is for 27. That would be the earliest I would hope to be in some regional and national distribution. And at this point,

yeah, I would have to either finance, take out a second mortgage, something like that, bet on myself, which is a scary thing to do, or find someone who is willing to do it with a small, small piece of equity, which is pretty hard to find. Yeah. And there's also, I mean, I completely agree with NERGE here. I mean, there's, you know, there are also ways to like revenue-based financing that some of these lenders, I can't, clear co is one. Shopify actually is one. They make small loans, right, against a predictable sales and then SBA loans. But back to something that NIRG asked, which I think is critical, if you want to scale, you know,

when you want to get into the targets and the Sephora's, that's when you really need to raise money. And if that's where you're headed, then it may be worth thinking about a seed round of friends and family now, a small seed round, you know, $300,000, $500,000 to see what you can do with that money to sort of get you closer to the next level, where you need to raise a lot more money at that point. Yes, this is a good idea. something that's crossed my mind on a very regular basis. And with seed rounds, are you, you're not giving equity necessarily or just giving interest or you can choose? You can, Nierge, I mean, there are many ways to do it. You can get convertible notes. You can pay people back. I mean, there's a bunch of ways to do. Normally convertible notes just translate into stocks. But, Neh, what you think? Yeah, I think a convertible note is what I have heard of

and seen is most common. What that is, instead of deciding at what value those investors are buying equity from you. They're giving you the investment. They hold a convertible note. And what that means is that when you raise your next round of capital, their money converts into equity, but at a discount to what that round ultimately gets priced at. So if you're able to take the money from them now, you're able to invest it very productively and grow the business nicely and then ultimately raise around at a good price, these investors get the benefit. They're converting, you know, 20% less or 30% less than that. So they're getting that value for being early. But you're also not necessarily having to price the company based on your current sales and where you are now because that would be hard if you just do it off your current revenue.

And if you start talking about the product pipeline and the vision you have, it becomes maybe a big debate as to what the price should be. So a convertible note, I think, is often an easy way to do it. And ultimately, those investors in the friends and family around, they are going to get equity at a good price. But it makes it an easy way to raise the money quicker. Okay, great. And I know that you bootstrapped for a long time. You guys didn't take investment money for a while, if I'm remembering correctly. Do you have regrets? Are you glad you did?

So we're glad we did. So we were able to do, and I do often recommend to folks, don't take the money until you're really ready to. And what I mean by that is for some reason, there's a lot of prestige in raising money. But the truth is you'd rather not raise money if you can get to the next level without it. And so even if that means you might move a little slower, often that's a better decision. And when the time is right to raise money, it'll be because that money, you have a very clear use for that money that you know we'll get you to the next level. And without the money, you're going to be unable to do the thing you want. So in our case, we were able to bootstrap the business. The big use of money that we were able to avoid in our cases, we didn't buy the inventory. And instead, we drop ship the orders from suppliers using their open stock inventory. So we didn't buy the item until we had already sold it. That's what let us kind of go a long way. And then the reason we raised money, it was 10 years in, was we wanted to launch the Wayfair brand. But we didn't have the ability. to fund building a brand with the amount of cash we were generating for the business.

And so we then raised equity. And so I think that's the tradeoff you need to balance. Yeah. And I like the idea of waiting for the POs. I feel like I can carry it until the POs come in. But say I got a PO for 50,000 units, that would be probably the time to jump in and find some help. Yeah.

And you mentioned that you were in some stores, right? And what about just seeing if you can get the product in front of a Whole Foods buyer, for example? Guy, I would love that. You know anybody? Send her my way. Well, I mean, they've got, you know, regional buyers. It would be worth cold, you know, going on LinkedIn and just finding someone's name and just cold emailing them because that's their job. Their job is to find interesting locally made products.

We just did an episode on Poppy. You know, Poppy soda. It started out as a vinegar soda at a farmer's market in Dallas and it was picked up in the Whole Foods in Dallas. That really does happen. And part of it is find that we've had so many episodes in the show. where people go to a Whole Foods buyer and a regional buyer, and then it gets into two, three, four Whole Foods, and Whole Foods will work with you, you know,

they want you to succeed. Oh, yeah. You know, whether you can get purchase order financing, they're also, as you know, they're right there, these groups that will lend you money if you've got the orders. Yeah, for the right percentage of return, they sure will. Yeah. There's plenty of people willing to give you money.

It just is trying to find the smartest way to go about that, yeah. I think the issue here, you've got to bet on yourself. That's the, right, you're scared, you're worried because it's scary. Big. But you, but you go great, it looks like you have a great product. So you've got an in-house chemist. I mean, somebody's working with you to develop this stuff. You cracked the coat on the white, you know, residue on the face.

Yeah, we do. It sounds really promising. Thank you. Yeah, I quit my job. I mean, I was a professor in the PA department here at my university at Utah Valley University, and I quit my job in January, and I'm all in on the. this. So, yeah, betting on myself for sure. Yeah. Any final words, Neeridge for Bree? You know, I would say that just figure out what your next step is and don't worry about four

steps at once, you know, and I wouldn't be scared of some of these larger national chains because a lot of them, they want to find new innovative product and test it in a small local way. And that could be an exciting thing to try while you're growing the existing distribution you already have with your two new products. And so, you can take things one step at a time. Yes, I love that very much. Yeah, that's the dream. That's on the gold board, right?

Whole Foods, Sprouts, Sephora, all the places, yeah. For sure, the brand's called Daily Shade, Bree Van Lewin. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you. I love your show, by the way. I think as a founder, it's so scary and so hard. And sometimes when I'm in my dark moments, I turn on how I built this.

And it does. It helps you get through it and push through when you hear the story. So thank you for all you do. It's why we do, we do. And thank you for saying that. Good luck. Thank you so much. All right.

We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Nero's shop, co-founder of Wayfair, and we're taking your calls right here. Hello, caller. Welcome to the show.

Hi, Guy. Hi, Naraj. Thank you so much for having me on. My name is Tess Milhollen. I am based near San Antonio, Texas, and I'm the founder of Her House. Her house is an app community of solo women travelers who are background checked, who host each other for free, creating safe, affordable stays, and a supportive network of women around the world.

Wow, cool. Tess, thanks for calling in. So, okay, so this is a website and an app, and it's basically designed for solo female travelers. It's like a network where if you're in it, you can connect with a, somebody somewhere around the world who's in this network who will let you stay at their home when you're traveling around the world. Yeah, you got it, guys. So we have three ways to stay with each other inside of her house. They can connect with other members and ask for accommodation

while they're traveling and they're in a new city or a new country. We also have opportunities to home swap with others and then homesit for each other as well. So there's three ways to stay, but we really have a wonderful, beautiful community of solo traveling women who are just looking for adventure, but they don't want to be totally alone when they're out abroad. Yeah, and obviously, I'm sure the safety and all kinds of things are a big part of it. Tell me how is it, I mean, what's your business model? How do you make money? Yeah, so we are membership-based.

So we have a monthly and a yearly membership, and that gives the user, like, full access to the community and unlimited free accommodation within our community. So basically, if you are a member, you also have to be willing to provide free accommodation for a solo female traveler. Ideally, some of the women are like nomads and they actually don't have a home base and they're not able to host at the time, but a lot of them are still willing to get together with you if you're coming to their city, you know, grab a coffee, go to the beach so that like when you're solo traveling, you can go to another country and, you know, have an immediate connection

and an immediate girlfriend in the area. Nice. How many members do you have right now? So currently we have around 150 members across 20 countries. And when did, how did you get this idea? I'm assuming it started with your own travels. Yeah. So I solo backpacked through Australia in 2017.

after I got out of college. And while I was over there, I'm kind of a natural networker. I'm really good at making friends. So I was able to connect with a lot of women while I was over there, find accommodation. And I found that as a solo women traveler, people just opened up their homes to me all the time. It was like this amazing experience. I didn't even know that people do this. And I had all these amazing experiences with local people.

Like, I really immersed myself in the culture. And so when I got back to it, the States, my friends were like, how did you do that? How did you find these people? How did you know that they were safe? And I was like, oh, wait, like, it was easy for me to do this, but maybe it's not that easy for everyone else. So it's like, wouldn't it be great if we had an app, you know, a space where we could all connect and we were all background checked. It's all safe because safety's the number one concern for solo female travelers. So that's where it all kind of stemmed from.

All right. Interesting idea. Tell us your question. Yeah. So I am a solo founder, and I've been building this on the side of a full-time job in software sales. And I'm starting to realize that I cannot do both while also being a mom and a wife. And my question is, when should a new founder make the jump to running their startup full-time? Is there a specific income threshold or signs of a healthy business that will give me the confidence to make that jump? All right. Interesting questions. By the way, do you travel for that job? Not a whole lot. I work remote, so I handle all of my sales calls and stuff remotely at my house. All right. So you've got a full-time job, software sales. This is really your, sounds like your passion. But you need to know, like, if you're going to do this full-time, when, what signs should you be looking for? Niroich, I want to bring you in any questions before we tackle Tess's question. I have one question, which is, Tess, say,

The scenario was such that you could focus on her house full time. Do you have a vision as to the activities you would then focus on full time that would kind of fill all that time and you feel like would have a high return? Or is that one of the things you'd have to figure out? It's like, you know, what would I then, you know, instead of spending X amount of time, I can now spend a multiple of that. What would I go do? That's a good question.

I think that, so I get up super early in the morning to work on her house like for a few hours before I log in for my regular day job. And, you know, whenever I need to, you know, stop working on her house, I'm like, I feel like I have like so many things to do. You know, my to-do list is just keeps compiling. And I was like, man, if I could spend more time on this, would it really move more of the needle? It's hard to say. Like, I feel like it would, but it's not financially in a place where I feel comfortable, like putting my family in the place to, I can't depend on it quite yet. Yeah, I mean, I would sort of start out by saying, I don't think there's any quote unquote, right income threshold. It's really, it's such a personal decision, right? I mean, I'm assuming, you know, as a software sales rep, you're probably getting commissions. You probably get benefits as well. It's probably a pretty good job from that perspective. Am I right or wrong?

No, you are right, guy. And that's also the hard thing. Like, I have a really good job and it's well. paid, I have great benefits. So that makes it even more scary to try to like let go of something that I actually have worked really hard to achieve. And I do like my job. It's not like I don't like my job and I want to quit it, but I'm just feeling so stretched, so thin between my passion and my love for her house and wanting to see it grow and then a very demanding job on top of it. Yeah, Niroch, I'm curious. When, I mean, there's really no universal answer for when to jump ship. I mean, there's some things that I think people should pay attention to, but like if people say, how do you know, how do you know when to leave your day job? Do you ever know?

You know, what occurs to me is there's sort of like two questions in there, you know, so one is, have you been able to progress her house to a point where you feel like it's, it's worth the risk and the effort of making it your full-time vocation, where you feel like, You know, you have a vision of what you want to do and the odds of it working is high enough that you have that conviction that it would be a good use of your time and that it would progress things in the way you want. And the second is that pragmatic financial question. You know, are you in a position financially where you can afford to take that risk? And if you can't and you still want to, then, you know, through a friends and family round

or through some method, can you financially bridge it somehow where you could sell some equity and get enough? And maybe it's not the same amount of money as you're making. now, but it's enough that you feel like it's worth doing. So I would try to break those two apart in how you think about it and, you know, focus on the first where you're not thinking about the money side. You're just saying like, hey, how much conviction do I have that this, you know, if I put myself at this full time, I'm going to be able to get this where I want. And if you say you're very convicted, then I would kind of try to think through the money piece and figure out if there's a path that makes it, you know, I think if it is a no regret decision, meaning

even if it doesn't work, you'll be happy that you tried it. You know, can you get to a scenario where that would be the right answer. Because often if you don't pursue something you want, you'll have regrets. But obviously, if you do something reckless, you could have different regrets. So you want to make sure it's not reckless as well. But can she do that? Because I agree with you. But I would say she should really try to do that while keeping her job.

As tough as that's going to be. Well, I think you've got to start there. And then if you're like, hey, I just need X amount more time. I think one of the other questions I have, which I was going to get into, is, you know, is there an in-between? I mean, so often in something like software sales where it's, you know, commission driven and it's outcome-based, you know, if you're doing a great job for the company, if you say, hey, you know, is there a halftime role or some such thing? You know, if it's like that kind of variable comp type thing, they might say, hey, we don't want to lose you. So we might be willing to do that or something like that. But yeah, I wouldn't give up the job too quickly for sure. And then I would guide to your point, like given the flexibility you have, it's remote, you're not traveling for it. You know, can you do both? And then to degree you can't do both. Is there something different than an all or nothing? There's a thought I had.

Because, I mean, again, there's some things that there's sort of quote-unquote green lights, right? Like, do you have recurring revenue? What do the renewals look like? Like, I do think it's worth asking those questions. Are, you know, what kind of growth are you looking at, right? Is what kind of validation are you getting from the outside? But is there a way that maybe you hire a part-time community manager to do some things that you want to do, you know, that may be a modest investment of an hourly person helping you. Is that something you've looked at

or thought about trying? Yeah, it's actually interesting you bring that up guy because I actually did hire a community and social media manager this year, actually within this past like month because I was just like, I can't do all of this. And I'm not up present on social media. And I just don't have time. So she's been helping me quite a bit. And I'm really trying to figure out ways to take these things off my plate that I don't really need to be directly involved in. For sure, is that person also in San Antonio, or are they remote? She's remote, yeah. Choose a referral, but she's based in the Philippines. I mean, look, it's a first step, right, is bringing somebody in because, again, I think that

you want to keep one foot in your day job as long as possible because the money and the benefits are going to be really helpful. And it may mean you're going to have to grind a little bit more on the other side. But again, with somebody helping you up part-time, it could be a game-changer. Yeah, exactly. And especially with my current situation, you know, I can afford to have someone help me out with that, but I really can't afford to let go of my job. But I really like your idea, Nouraj, about potentially going half-time or something in the future. And I also think, you know, You mentioned the person you hired in the Philippines through referrals, then it's just the last month or so. So I think it's probably early in figuring out what type of leverage you might get from that.

So there's things that as you're working on this, I think you might start seeing how do I get some leverage while not spending more money than I can afford, but get the growth trajectory of her house up moving the right way. And then to Guy's point, you know, can it grow to a size where it can support what you need and whether that's half time or what have you eventually full time? Awesome. The brand is called Her House, Test Mill Holland. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of crazy because you guys are running such a big business, right? But, I mean, there was a time where you're, you know, you and Steve are just grinding it out just to getting through the day. I mean, you probably still have long days, but it's different. It's a different kind of experience at this point in your life.

Yeah, I remember those early years. We were working effectively nonstop in the early years. But, you know, it was interesting when Tess described, you know, she's not balancing just a full-time job and her house. She's also balancing being married and having a young child, I think she said. So that's a lot you're balancing. And so I think we had the good fortune. You know, we ended up starting early. But there's all these things you got to balance and tradeoffs.

And I do think the ability in her case where you're remote, that gives you some flexibility. Yeah. And so can you organize in a way that does give you that less? leverage to kind of advance it. So it does, you know, lend itself sometimes to creative options. Nierch, before it lets you go, if you could go back to when you and Steve are just starting out, you know, building these like just one product web pages, and you could go back and say, all right, you know, given what you know now, what do you think would be helpful? What would you say? What would you tell that person? What would have been helpful for you to know back then?

I think, you know, nothing's ever linear and up to the right. So, you know, sometimes when stories get told, You know, it's like all the high notes get told. And so you just feel like it, geez, it should just string right along. And I think when folks tell you the details of the story, you realize there's real ups and downs and a real journey that ensued. And I think that's the reality. And so often I think folks can be in a rush to get to that success point. And I think the journey, this is why you need to do something you enjoy so that hopefully the highs and lows are still you're pursuing something you really love. But I think just taking your time and how you go about it and just being very disciplined.

and how you pick your priorities of what you do, that's the key. And you just need to keep going and learn from the things that don't work well. And often those learnings lead you to the next aha moment. And so because I think if you kind of go in with that mental model, it becomes clear why you need to pick something you love. And also from an expectation standpoint, you know, trying to rush your way to the big win. That's really not a thing, I don't think. Yeah, for sure. Naraj, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

Thank you, Guy. It was great to do it. Nice to see you. You too. That's Naraj Shah. co-founder of Wayfair. And by the way, if you haven't heard that episode, go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's so good. You've got to listen to it. Here is one of my favorite moments from that episode.

So, all right, I'm going to read some of the websites that you guys launched because I just think they're amazingly straightforward name of hotplates.com. I'm assuming that sold hot plates. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All barstools.com. What do you think that sold? Yes.

You're doing good. You're doing good. All right. My dinnerplate.com? I'm assuming you're a little dinner plate. Yeah, I love this one. Everygrandfather clock.com. A very hot category online.

Painful to ship. Who knew people were searching for that? We did. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gairoz.com or on substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us.

a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at ID.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Rumtin Ereblewe. It was edited by Andrea Bruce, our audio engineer with Sina LaFredo.

Our production staff also includes Chris Messini, Jacey Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thompson, Catherine Seifer, Ramel Wood, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line right here on how I built this lab.