How I Built This with Guy Raz - Advice Line with Tony Lamb of Kona Ice

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Kona Ice co-founder and CEO Tony Lamb joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders.Today we meet Dylan, who’s wondering how to tell if his small town Illinois candy store is a winning franchise idea. Then Zach, a Wall Street trader trying to bring a popular Asian craft to the U.S. And Jennifer, a designer in San Diego looking to promote her home decor brand on social media—without paying big bucks to influencers.If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [e-mail] or call 1-800-433-1298.And be sure to listen to Kona Ice’s founding story on the show from November 2023. This episode was produced by Casey Herman with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram, and email us at [e-mail]. And sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I talk to entrepreneurs all the time who are looking for a way to upgrade their digital footprint. Well, whether you're just starting out or you're scaling your business, Squarespace is the easiest way to build a great website that stands out. It's an all-in-one website platform that gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your products, and get paid. Anyone can use Squarespace's cutting-edge design tools to build an online presence that truly reflects what makes your business special.

There are templates, intuitive drag-and-drop editing, and even an AI-enhanced website builder. Then, Squarespace's built-in analytics tools help you make smarter business decisions. Review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement, and track revenue all in one place. Looking to grow your business, Squarespace even offers fast, easy business financing

through Squarespace capital. Go to Squarespace.com slash built for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code built to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Loans issued by Celtic Bank and serviced by Stripe, all loans subject to credit approval. This show is in partnership with Airbnb. This past summer, I took my family to Vienna, and it was incredible. We spent our days wandering the old streets, stopping for coffee and pastries, visiting museums, and just soaking up the history of one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And one of the things that made the trip so special was the home we booked on Airbnb. It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city,

made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you.

And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at ID.wondry.com and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up.

For my newsletter, it's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right. Let's get to it. My guest today is Tony Lamb, the founder of Kona Ice. It's a franchise of shaved ice trucks that started out not in Hawaii, but in northern Kentucky. Tony, welcome to the show.

Hey, Guy, glad to be here. The shaved ice capital of the world, northern. Kentucky. It's so great to have you back on the show. We had you back on last year, and we told the story about how your kids went to buy popsicles from a kind of a seedy-looking ice cream truck, and there are popsicles are freezer burned, and they were gross. And then you start to think, well, what if you could kind of redo the ice cream truck? And then you kind of had this kind of revelation, maybe a road to Damascus moment, where you realize that shave ice could be the thing. And then you eventually built out a truck, and you worked it for a while. And then

you turn into a franchise model, a business where people now buy, can buy a Kona ice, shave ice truck, and run a small business. And you've got, how many of these do you have around the United States today? We have 1,450 Kona trucks, along with about 700 ancillary pieces of equipment, but about 150 coffee trucks, too. So cool. Right, coffee business, too, which is called the Traveling Tom's, called. Traveling Tom's, yeah. Named after my dad. Named after your dad.

And I just saw a cone ice truck up in Sonoma County in California the day. And I thought of you. You know, a lot of the, and I suspect a lot of people calling in today are going to ask about, you know, visibility, growing your brand. How do you get people to be aware of what you're doing? And so much of this sort of revolves around digital media, right? Social media advertising. But really, a lot of it is just it's sort of, it hasn't really changed in terms of getting the word out. Like you, I remember in your episode, you talked about at one point, you were, you were. You were driving trucks with advertising and you, you know, you were doing, you know, all kinds of Obama and McCain and whoever I ever pay you to drive the truck with the sign on it. And now essentially, Kona Ice, I mean, that's a moving billboard, right? Or traveling time.

It's just driving around and you see it. So, I mean, when it comes to things like building awareness and advertising, I mean, how do you think about doing that with your businesses? Well, I mean, I'm listening to your advice line, and I've loved several of the episodes, almost every episode. I just have loved. I just think your guests, your returning guests are so caring and gentle and loving. And I don't tend to be that way. So I'm hoping that I can channel some of that. But no, but you think about like Tart makeup.

Yeah. And Marine Kelly, yeah. Yeah, Marine Kelly and her early stories of just grinding it through. And then the Cliff Bar guy, what was his name? Gary Erickson, yeah. Gary Erickson. Yeah, yeah. And he was amazing.

He's talking about going to the writers and going out and just handing out. And he actually cut bars in two. So he's giving out chunks of stuff. That is that tenacity that, you know, everyone now wants to figure out how to go viral and just sit back on their computer and type some things out. And yeah, there's a place for that. get me wrong because it's a heck of a lot easier if you can figure out that magic formula. But still, don't ever discount that grind, man, that out there, like you were saying, I was out there

in a truck driving around my neighborhoods, my friends laughing at me. And I'm like, oh, God, I hope I'm right. I hope I'm right. Tony, what are you doing, driving an ice cream truck? You used to drive a nice car, wear a nice suit. I'm like, I swear to God, this is going to work. Well, here you go. Almost 2,000 trucks later, and you have the last laugh. Tony, why don't we take our first caller? Excellent. Okay.

Caller, let's bring our first caller. And hello, you are online. Hey, guy. Hey, Tony. Welcome. Please tell us your name, what you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Yeah, my name is Dylan Richter. I am the co-founder with my wife, Katie, of the sweet spot in the small, rural

town of Hillsborough, Illinois. We are a good old-fashioned brick and mortar candy retail shop. Everything that a sweet tooth would desire, we have ice cream, candies, craft sodas, all of the above. Amazing. And what's your question for us today? My question's around expansion. So we are about to have our one-year anniversary, but the store's been super successful. It's been super fun, and it is a format that I think could work in small towns all over the country. So we are about to open our second location about 40 minutes away. But my question is, what metrics and milestones should we be looking at to see if this concept is indeed viable across the country? Okay. We'll get your question a sec. I've got some questions for you, Dylan. So Hillsborough

is not, it's in Illinois, but it's like in central Illinois. Like you're closer to St. Louis than you're to Chicago, right? A little over an hour away from St. Louis. That's right. And how big is the town of Hillsborough? About 5,000 people. Wow. Okay. So tell me, so you opened the store last year, right, the candy store, the sweet spot. That's right. That's right. Tell me what were you doing before that? How did that happen? Were you in the candy business? Not at all. And this was not part of the plan. So the fun is exciting and happy as a candy store is. The origin story is unfortunately not quite the same. So if I rewind a couple of years, my wife and I were living in Chicago. I have worked since 2014 for DoorDash and had a fantastic time seeing that. company grow. My wife is a scientist. She is definitely the brains of the family. But if we get to around COVID, unfortunately, we got a phone call. My father-in-law was diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. So as soon as we got that news, we packed up our bags. We moved to Hillsborough to

spend time and help out with the caretaking. And to be honest, that was a very difficult couple years. And going through that experience, this is going to sound cliche, but it was one of those things where you kind of realize how valuable time is. And through that experience kind of came to the conclusion that I want to have more agency over my time. I've always wanted to start something of my own. We thought it would be, frankly, just a lot of fun to start a business in the small town, kind of give back to the community that showed us a lot of support. And next thing you know, we decided to open a candy store. Wow. Okay. So you guys open a candy store, presumably it's on the main street. It is. We are literally on Main Street. It's a small, probably like 40 retail storefronts. And it was one of those

experiences where we're coming from a big city. We've only ever lived in quote unquote big cities. And through moving there after a couple of years felt small town USA overlooked, underserved. I did a little research in candy, not the most expensive thing, kind of a routine, habitual type of experience. So if you can invest in a good experience for the people in the town, give back to the community, and it can work in a small town like Hillsborough, I thought that that was bones that could potentially work in many other places. I've driven through many small towns in rural Illinois, but I know that same concept applies elsewhere. It's interesting is candy is probably a little bit like, I mean, it's shelf stable, it doesn't

go bad that quickly. It's probably relatively inexpensive. And then the margins are probably pretty good, right? Absolutely. All of that is true. Yeah. So Tony, I mean, we can get to Dylan's question a second, but I'm assuming you've got some, you probably have some questions for him as well. No, I love, I love the idea. I mean, it's just nostalgic. You picture the small town, you're going in and it's experiential. Dylan, are you and your wife working the store every day? Is that who's in the store? I'm there 100% of the time. The first six months, I was behind the counter, just because I've never done this before, is that. the best way to learn how to do it. My wife's aunt is now at the counter all day, every day with us, and then my mother-in-law is going to be joining us when she retires from the high school in a couple ones. And these are small towns. These are OGs from that town? Exactly. Everybody knows everybody. Pluses and minuses to that. I have learned, but there's definitely a very strong community feel.

Tell me a little bit about your customers that walk in. Is these families that walk in? Is it is a, I picture a grandpa bringing their granddaughter in? Tell me about that a little bit. What does that look like? It is, it is exactly what you picture. It is grandma and grandpa bringing the kids in during the day in the summer when the parents are working. It's kids in the high school coming after school and getting a snack. I had someone in there two weeks ago buying candy to use as potty training for their kids. So I did that. I did that. Yep. Did that work. Totally worked. Bribery. So right now you're expanding, and the question you're sort of asking is, what do what kind of metrics, what are our key KPIs? What do we need to be thinking about to turn this into something scalable?

Before I answer that question, let me ask you this. What do you want to be? I mean, you're talking to Tony. He turned Kona Ice into a national franchise. What do you think that you'd like to be if you thought about that? Yeah, 100%. Look, at the end of the day, going through the experience. that we went through, I would say I and we're optimizing for creating as much joy as possible.

And that might sound like a cheesy answer, but it's the honest truth. So if I can bottle up this concept and hand it off to someone else to run, I not only think that brings a tremendous amount of happiness and joy to the people in those communities, but also a pretty good job, a pretty enjoyable and rewarding career for a family who wants to invest back in their hometown. All right. So you're open to some kind of franchise model. In my head, that's the way that this works best. But, yeah. All right. Tony, Tony, you're looking at this with me. You successfully launched two franchise models with coffee and shave ice. What are your thoughts on that?

You know, you've got to ask yourself, Dylan. And listen, let me say this. You're merchandising, the idea. I'm looking at your website. Whoever's doing your merchandising. And I'm assuming it's you and your scientist's wife. But you are, it is looked, it looks fabulous. It really does look fabulous.

I have to ask myself first. So here was a question I asked myself when I'm driving around the first trucker in the neighborhoods. And I was doing well. And I was like, is this all me? Because I'm from Northern Kentucky. And I'm, I mean, I've been there. 20 years and I'm calling the school teachers and I'm just busting into everywhere. But I thought,

how much am I a part of this success and can the success be garnered by someone who's, you know, not from small town Illinois? And you're going to find out a lot when you open up 40 miles away. And I would definitely hire somebody from that small town, probably a school teacher that's beloved and put her in that store. I smile because that's exactly what we're planning to do. Yeah, that's brilliant in that respect. So if you're wanting to franchise, listen, and let me back up just a second, Dylan, because you said you were looking for, you know, you just lost your father-in-law and you're kind of going through this process and what that shows you about life and it's it's brevity and how much you wanted to be happy and how much you wanted to enjoy. And I want to say this as constructively as I can. I say this to my own franchisees. There is a sweet spot in Kona. with a couple franchises and maybe an ancillary or two, and you can make plenty of money. You can really have a great life.

But everyone kind of gets into this and they're like, hey, how do I conquer the world? My wife kind of jokes. She said, you know, Tony quit his job to do Kona so he could spend more time with his kids. And all he did was just make a business big enough so he can employ all of his kids and get free labor. So brings new challenges But no I do want to I do want to kind of put that into your ethos

It's like it's not always about Trying to take over the world in candy stores Dylan what do you mind telling us What is your revenue more or less We'll do about 400 in our first 12 months That's amazing for a candy store in a small town Almost did a spit take there I just drinking a bottle of water

And almost spit all over the computer That's this is 400,000 for the first year My projection was 62, so I think that's more of a reflection on my poor modeling skills than anything else. I mean, that kind of revenue... We were blown away. Right. It's amazing. So it really, you've proved out this concept.

And, but I think that to do it in a way where you can actually sell a franchise, there has to be a couple of tweaks in the stores that make this totally unique. You know, like, you know, you talk about joy. And I think a lot of that joy comes from seeing children come in. in with a grown-up, right? And a candy store is just amazing. Like, I remember when I was a kid, at a teacher, and she had a, she had a paper-machet tree on one of the walls of the room, and she would tape with masking tape, Tutsi pops on that tree. And once a day, one kid, who was the student of the day, could go and grab one off that tree. And I mean, that was magical. It was a lollipop tree, you know? And if you can kind of create an experience even beyond just the candy,

like I remember when I was a kid, there was a store called Imaginarium and some shopping malls, and they had two doors. They had the big door to go, and then they had a small little door that kids could walk through into the store. And it was so cool that I always wanted to go to that store and walk to that little door. Love that. And so to me, like a couple of cool tweaks like that, and you can really experiment with your second store, that kind of allows you to build out that proof of concept where you can say, okay, now we've got this model and now we can maybe go to a third store. Maybe we can talk to somebody else who wants to open that third store. Absolutely. Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. I love it. We're head in that direction. We have miniature shopping carts that little kids take around and put way too much candy in. So I think there's a lot more we can and should do in that realm. but that advice is fantastic. I appreciate it. The store is called The Sweet Spot.

Dylan Richter, good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you guys very much. We're going to start with this first store. If it goes well and we want to expand, Guy, it may take us a little bit of time to get to San Francisco. But Tony, Parkersburg, West Virginia, Northern Kentucky, Florence, I think we can get there. I got first dibs on the San Francisco franchise.

Thank you guys very much. It's been a later. Thanks so much. Those are crazy numbers. I mean, you're the guy that. that figured out you can make money selling shave ice. And the margins on that must be pretty good, right? Because it's ice and syrup and, you know, and there's gasoline and stuff, obviously.

But, man, candy. And man, I just hope it's not. I had a buddy that opened up a bar in his first three months. He was doing numbers that you couldn't even get your mind around. And I had another friend that said, yeah, those are your honeymoon numbers. Let's see if he's got what it takes to keep that going. And lo and behold, he didn't. I mean, because there's a lot of places out there.

There's a lot of competition for your dollars when it comes to stuff like that. So, but maybe not in a small town. So maybe that's he's tapped into something there. And there's not competition for your, I know, I know we sell a lot of Kona franchises in small rural America. And my franchisees have said to me, you know, you go to a small town and you're like Santa Claus coming to town. You know, people just lose their mind because they don't have all the options. So maybe he's, he's really tapping into something there. I'm hopeful.

All right, Tony, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, a Wall Street trader trying to popularize needle felting. And if you don't know what needle felting is, well, that's part of the problem. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the device line on how I built this lab. My guest today, taking your calls with me is Tony Lamb, the founder of Kona Ice, a franchise of shaved ice trucks.

All right, let's bring in another caller. Hello, caller, are you with us? Hi, Guy. Hi, Tony. It's great to talk with you. Welcome, please. Tell us your name and where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Yeah.

My name is Zach Dietz. I'm from Northampton, Massachusetts. And my business is called Just Futs. So we make and sell learn to needle felt kits. Amazing. Okay, tell us what question you brought for us. Of course, yeah. So we're really focusing on online selling.

And we just launched recently. We're two months into the business. So my question is, given that not a lot of people know what needle felting is, how should we market on social media to sell a product? Most people are unaware exists. All right. We're going to get to your question a sec. And I have a lot of questions about needle felting. So it's a kit you can buy.

And it gives you a needle and the felt and it teaches you how to needle felt or to sew, I guess, whatever the term is. Yeah. So these kits make felted creatures out of sheep's wool. So it's a process that takes about three hours and you create a cute little creature. Right now we have a penguin and a panda for sale. And, you know, friends come to your apartment and they say, wow, that is, that's a really cute thing.

You're like, I actually made that myself. I needle pointed it myself. How did you get to get to? Tell me a little bit about the background. How did you get to this, Zach? Right. So it all stems from I was working a job in finance, so very unrelated. And I got laid off from that job and decided to take that as an opportunity to do some traveling.

So I convinced my girlfriend to quit her job and join me in travel in Asia. And we were in Taiwan and we were at a craft fair. and I'm not a really crafty guy, but when I saw this stand of all these felted creatures and I saw that they actually were selling kits to do it, I went up to the booth and I bought some kits and I asked, do you guys sell outside of Taiwan? And they didn't. And I was like, why have I never seen this in the U.S.? So I tried the kits? And I actually, you know, really enjoyed the experience. And I was like, I think artsy people in the U.S. might like trying this as well. So that was kind of the genesis. So you are basically betting on this idea that because it's, I mean, you know, it's unusual, right? Like you're, I think you would admit yourself. Like you're, you were not a guy who'd be like, you know what? I really want to get into needlepoint or whatever. Like you stumbled on it and then you tried it and you loved it.

And there was something about the experience of like putting this thing together that turned into a little creature that you just thought was really what satisfying or fun. I don't know. It must have been something that captured your. imagination in some way. Right. Exactly. I think as we become adults, and I'm only 26 years old, but I've already found this, we kind of lose our creativity and lose the ability to learn a new hobby. So that's kind of what I'm trying to bottle up in this kit. And what is the sort of like, just started this. And so presumably, you know, trying to figure out how to get the word out so you can sell them. But what do you think the market size is in with something like this? Yeah. So you might

think it's pretty tiny. And what really kind of shaped my opinion is this Learn to Crochet Company called the Wobles. I don't know their current numbers, but I think it's five plus million dollars revenue a year. And I was just in Walmart the other day and saw their kits there. Also part of why I thought this could be a good idea is because I have friends who have done these Learned to crochet kits. And they say, actually, it's still quite intimidating. But with needle felting, you literally start with fluffy sheep's wool and you get a needle and you just start poking it. You just keep poking and it just condenses down into the shape. So it's really doesn't, it doesn't take much instruction, although we do provide, you know,

detailed step-by-step instruction, but it's approachable. Wow. Tony, any thoughts? I have tons of thoughts. You took me, Zach, you took me into a wormhole of needle felting and I have, oh my gosh, the cat faces that I think I saw online and some of the different things is beautiful. But listen, I mean, obviously, you know your hill that you're climbing. Not only do you have to get market share, but you have to develop the market,

which is probably one of the most challenging things there is to do out there because it's so twofold. Ironically enough guy, I sat behind a lady on a cross-country flight that was crocheting, and she completely did this handbag. And I was like, that was amazing. I started talking to her a little bit as she were getting off the plane. And I was like, she goes, oh, yeah, I just look for opportunities to spend three or four hours doing this. And I was like, I think it looks medicinal in a lot of ways. Yeah.

And great. And but, you know, Zach is to start from that. Did you say it's really big in Taiwan? Is that what it is? Yeah, in Asia, it's big, and it's oddly enough big in England as well, but not really in the U.S. Do you see inside of, you know, Asian communities in the United States or Taiwanese communities in the United States? Do you see it being popular or did it make the journey with that culture? I don't think so.

No. Okay. Yeah. So like you said, it's definitely this like double-sided problem that, yeah. That's part of the reason why I was like so interested in starting a business like this because it seems daunting. Yeah, might as well start with something near impossible. You're going to start a business, man. Let's just absolutely start.

No, I mean, listen, this journey is long and it starts probably in craft shows. It starts very, I mean, if you go back and you listen to the advice lines, you know, and you listen to that cliff bar. and how he's at bike shows and getting out, cutting cliff bars and pieces and handing out little pieces of cliff bar to get people excited. I mean, that's almost the journey that you've got ahead of you is, is to be in those craft shows and to be in those communities,

whether it's chat rooms, whether it's Facebook communities or whatever, where you're trying to introduce this product so you can kind of try to get some traction. But I think it's going to take that real strong, visceral, organic start. And listen, And sometimes, Zach, and I want to say this with all due respect, sometimes not every hobby that we come up with is a career.

And I mean, not everyone wants to, you know, Cortez it. And I always say that, you know, land of the new world and set their ships on fire and say, you know, let's go after it. Right now, this business is not 100% full time for me. I'm still involved in finance and trading. but I'm putting in time in this and like to grow it to a point where it could be my full-time job. And my girlfriend, Emma, is helping me out with it as well, and she's working on it as well. And do you have the ability with your job, your day job, to, like, go to a trade show or, like, probably farmer's markets on the weekends, but trade show, is that a possibility? Probably not weekdays type type thing.

But on the weekend, yes. And that's something I'm excited to do because it is a very visual product. I mean, I can imagine seeing you like a table, like poking something and having like a little panda and a penguin and a little puppy and a cat and a pig and, you know, all these like animals lining these table. You know, and then you're just sitting there, you and somebody else just poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, poking, you're just making them, right? And because it's one of those things that people have to see, because I wasn't even, I mean, it's not like crocheting. It literally, now that I understand it, it's like compacting the wool into a shape, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And another question I have, because I think that like in-person demonstration really makes sense. But another question is if we're trying to really build a social media following. So would you say put a video? of someone doing that, that exact process on social media? When you say put up the videos, you've got to also look for something that's fascinating in the videos and the connection. And so, I mean, I think if you watch the video of you poking the wool to time lapse it, to make it fast, to make it good, and to bring in this.

Because people would, people will give you the, you know, that's why TikTok is so good. They'll give you the 15 seconds. They'll give you the 25 seconds. So a real good time lapse video. And listen, that doesn't take a whole lot of expense to do that. And you just keep pumping those things out there and keep, you know, adding them to. And because I would say needle felting, you could probably grab that marketplace fairly quickly. Right.

It's not a huge marketplace right now. Yeah. So, I mean, for me, honestly, that was shave ice. And it wasn't like, you know, everyone was. It wasn't a ubiquitous term, you know, brick and mortar stores, anything like that. So we were able to kind of own that space. Another thing I think I would do, Zach, is I would do a lot of peripherals and adjacents. So, you know, hook your videos up to crochet, even if you say the new type of crochet or the new type of macromay or the new this or the new that.

And so you can grab those words, those good key words. And so you can get some relevancies in your search terms. And also like I just try a bunch of different things like have them like just just a close up of the penguin and the panda just talking to each other like you know do the voices. Yeah. And just see what how that works. That's great. I hadn't thought of that one. I think that would be good.

You know, just just mess around it because it doesn't sound like right now you've got the capital to spend on influencers. I mean, there are obviously tons of craft influencers. I mean, I think of brands like cricket, you know, and these huge craft brands. there are craft fairs all over the country, crafty bastards, and all these different kinds of fairs where something like this could really, you know, be interesting to people. But I think as you're starting out on a small scale, you're just going to have to experiment with videos in your channels

and whether you do it to your own personal channels or you open another, you know, site or set channel called JustFuzz or do all three. That's really where you have to begin. And you just got to have to do a lot of them. Yeah, we're putting it. We have an Instagram and we, are, yeah, putting them out, doing a lot of them. But I really appreciate the advice.

Yeah, it seems like, Zach, you're not in this massive hurry. You're not trying to change the world. You're going at this because this is a tough one. You're going at this in the right pace, but making the right moves. And, you know, I love, I just love the spirit, man. I love the fact that you saw something. You brought it back. You're making it. It's just really, it's just really cool. excited for you. Coming from you, the guy who launched Hawaiian ice in Kentucky,

that just means so much. So thank you very much. Very, maybe one of the most challenging businesses of all time that we featured in the show. Zach Deets, good luck.

The business is called JustFuzz. Keep us posted. Okay, thank you guys. All right. I'm not, now I'm, I'm thinking about this now. I'm thinking about the

meditative quality of this stuff. I think this is really exciting because if you can learn how to do this and like, you know, my attention span. Do you have a good attention span? Are you willing to sit down for hours to learn something at this point in your life? Probably not. I'm being honest. I probably, I do like the medicinal. I do a lot of stretching and yoga and things like that.

I do like that serenity in your life when your life gets a little chaotic. So I think there's something really cool here. But again, developing and. introducing an entire concept is really, really challenging. All right, Tony, let's go ahead and take another quick break. But when we come back, is it possible to build a brand of Instagram-worthy products without paying big bucks to Instagram influencers? That's coming up in just a moment.

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built This Lab. Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. And today I'm joined by Kona Ice Foundation. founder Tony Lamb, and Tony, let's get to it. Let's bring in our last caller. Hello, caller. I believe it's Jennifer. Jennifer, are you in line? Yeah, hi, hi, guy. Hi, Tony. Hello, Jennifer. Welcome. Welcome, Jennifer. Tell us your first and last name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business. Sure. My name's Jennifer Braidwood. I'm the founder and owner of Braydenwood

Design Studio. We're based in San Diego, California. And we're a small product design firm that specializes in modern home decor products for people who want to bring more life into their home. So think like plant stands, plant hangers, plant shelves, vessels, all sorts of stuff like that. Nice. And you design them all? I do. I do. They're all my own designs. Cool. Tell us the question that you have for us today. Yeah. My question is we do really well with paid ads on Facebook and we've got some great micro-influencer camera. campaigns, but I'm curious what other strategies could we use to grow our e-commerce sales and our brand awareness without having to spend like tens of thousands of dollars? I obviously am working in a off a grassroots budget. Is it even possible to compete in a space without having those big marketing dollars? Yeah. All right. Let's, we'll get to that in a moment, but tell us a little bit

about the business. So how did you get into into this this world at all? Sure. So I spent the majority of my professional career in marketing, social media management, branding, web and graphic design, those types of things. But ever since I can remember, I've always loved making things. Definitely a designer at heart, spent a lot of time doing other side hustles while I was working full time. I started like a pillow shop on Etsy. I, I did a custom artwork service. I did interior design projects. And about five years ago, my husband and I decided to make a huge lifestyle switch. We were both so stressed out at our jobs. We were miserable. And we were in our mid-30s. And we just decided to make a major lifestyle

switch. We sold our home. We both quit our jobs. We moved into an apartment. And I was kind of free to sort of figure out, okay, what do I want to do? What's my next step? And I've always been really entrepreneurial. So I was like, okay, I'm going to start my own thing, see what I can do. And so I originally thought Braden Wood would be an interior design firm, but I was creating these DIY home decor planters. And they sort of started catching a little bit of traction on social media and I had a couple of retailers reach out to me and say, we, we love this beautiful, modern plant hanger that you're making. Can we buy some of those from you? We want to sell them. And we, you know, do you do wholesale? And I was like, yeah, sure, I do wholesale. Let's do

wholesale. And so I, the business was sort of, was sort of born. And over the last few years, you know, we've obviously grown and we have overseas manufacturing partners now and third party logistics fulfillment and all of that. And yeah, it's been a wild five years. So that's sort of the story. Wow. Well, your website is absolutely gorgeous. It looks incredible. It looks Thank you. Thank you. Well, the designs are truly amazing. I forwarded this as soon as I saw it. I just forwarded it to my wife. So I know you've got another customer coming. There you go. Perfect. She seems to have no budget. So Jennifer, I'm excited for you. Thank you. Send me all the customers, please.

And like some of these, I mean, you know, I love air plants because we've got a couple of them. They're super fun. And the way that you've designed these plants, it's like they're, you can put them right on the wall. They mount to the wall like framed pictures, but they're obviously. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're meant to be like, they're meant to look like home decor, like a beautiful decor accent. But then it just has that touch of life that you can add to it. That's really different. Where are your customers coming from now?

I mean, you're direct-to-consumer. You don't have a storefront, right? Correct. We are all e-commerce-based, and the majority of our customers are finding us through social media, and then, of course, our paid ad strategy that does pretty well for us. So the question is, how do you increase awareness, right? How do you get the word out about this brand without having a huge budget? And the first thing I wonder, Tony, you might be able to speak to this.

is are there ways to think about this beyond just through digital advertising? So, for example, is there a world where you partner at least at the beginning locally with like event spaces or, you know, party planners or even home stagers where they can use some of your products, you know, where they can borrow them? But you can clearly advertise where they come from. Have you ever done anything like that? You know, we were, we partnered with a small home staging company a few years ago. And as people were coming to the open houses and looking at them, people could actually buy the products that were in the staged home. So it was a really cool, unique concept. But I don't think they ever really got it together enough.

But I love the idea of like partnering with other businesses. businesses in San Diego to do brand giveaways or, you know, raise awareness in that way. What's the, what's the dream, Jennifer? I mean, you said you had some relationships with some larger companies, the, I'm assuming kind of the West Elms of the world. So yeah, we did have some success early on with some wholesale relationships with West Elm and Magnolia Market, uncommon goods, but we were very young. And it was almost too soon. And our price point was a little bit too high. And so we had issues with sell-through.

And we really worked the last two years bringing those costs of goods down, finding the right manufacturers to make the product. But to answer your question as far as like, what's the big dream is really to be a brand where people who are looking for unique products to decorate and style their homes with it, that they think of Braydenwood as the brand. Like, I want to bring life into my home, but I just don't want, like, the same boring plant stand that's on Amazon. So I think growing a large and well-known direct-to-consumer home goods brand is the goal.

So you don't, you're not, so the goal is not to partner back up with those companies for large distribution. I would, I would consider that. I would definitely be open to, that possibility again. We've, we've learned so much in the last few years that I think we could we could do it. Yeah, I mean, if you're positioning yourself as, I mean, your designs are so unique and they look so good. I was surprised to hear you say that, you know, the price point was a little high. I was like, I was actually thinking, I think you could sell it for more because it's just so unique. I mean, that's, I, what do I know? I'm a 55 year old

driving an ice cream truck. I don't know much about. I like that you like it, though. That's good. No, it's just, I mean, I don't see anything like it. So probably trying to establish yourself as the higher end of, you know, this kind of home decor. And then maybe approaching back into the mass distributors. Because if the big goal is, I mean, obviously, I think easily, the big goal is to be self-sustaining, you know,

to have all the money that you ever wanted in your life and to rain money upon you. Bring it to me. Bring it to me. Yeah, I mean, I know you said you don't have the massive budget, but I want to encourage you to take the big swings. I don't know what the latest, who the latest person is. I'm going to say Kardashians, but it's probably going to date me or whatever. But who's the big person? It's obviously the magnolias down there and, and,

Chip and Joanna Gaines. And I know that's, and I don't even know if that's it, but it's, it's about those big swings, sending those products, sitting in some different way, having it take a couple swings. It doesn't, you're going to strike out a bunch, but you're already, you're already there, man. You're already starting over. And so, so going for whatever that big win would be, I think you've got to take some swings for that. I really do. I would add to that. I mean, there's something I noticed on your site, which is you have a blog, right? And your blog is super cool. The thing that I love about your blog is that it's basically content marketing, right? You're writing about things that are very value add, and it's free. It's like here's how to take care of airplants. Here's how to style like a designer. And I feel like I haven't seen a whole lot of new blog posts. So it seems like they kind of tapered off last year. And I wonder whether, you consider really ramping that up, even if you feel like you're repeating some of the old ideas, because over time, that's going to start to hit search engines and you can use some of the blog posts for paid ads. Like instead of just advertising the plant hangers or the plant shelves, you would basically pay to promote the blog post, which then links back to what you're selling because the cool thing about the blog posts is you're giving.

is you're giving away information for free. I would really lean into that and try and lean into pushing some of those blog posts, even spending a couple hundred bucks on some targeted social media ads, but using the blog posts as a way to bring people under the door. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. It's like kind of piggybacking on what you said. A lot of people just don't know how to style, you know, their homes or I've got this blank wall in my bedroom I've been looking at forever.

Like, what do I even put on it? And giving that content and that education in a blog post, I think, is really valuable. People are hungry for that type of information. And so, yeah, and we have taken a break a bit on the content writing because I didn't really know if it was serving us well. But to revisit that, I think, is really smart. And it's hard. I mean, we're doing a newsletter every week. It's a lot of work.

Yeah, it is. And sometimes I ask myself, God, is a story. worth it are people reading it. By the way, if you are listening, please do sign up for a newsletter at guyraz.com. But, you know, it is critical over time. There's an aggregate effect and the people who really appreciate it, even if it might just be a thousand people or 500 people, those are your force multipliers. Those are the people who are really going to lean into what you're selling and tell other people about it. It'll just come up, you know, in an off-hand-a-way, oh, I just saw this really cool blog post exactly about where to place your

plants. What was that place called Braid and Wood? Yeah, go check that out. That's great. Yeah, that's a really good idea. The business is called Braid and Wood Design Studio and the founders, Jennifer Bradwood. Jennifer, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you so much, Guy. And I just wanted to say, too, I listen to the podcast every day. I'm in my warehouse working and it is so inspiring to hear other founders, especially female founders who are out there and doing it and taking the big swings, like you said, Tony, it keeps me going every day. So thanks for what you do. It's incredible.

Thank you for saying that. Thank you so much. Good luck, Jennifer. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Nice meeting you both. Thank you. Thanks.

Tony, you've touched on this point a couple times today in our chats with people. And it reminded me of because you were like a top vacuum cleaner salesman like for many years in a row and you were crushing it and you were just. And, you know, like most, most of us, you were motivated. to make more money because you wanted to have more money to have more freedom to do do things. But the thing that you, I just struck me today is this idea that you seem to be suggesting, which is are you happy with where you are now?

Are you making a good living that sustains your life? And if so, do you really want the tradeoff for maybe marginally more income, but like exponentially more problems? And I can you expand on that a little bit? I think that's a really important point that you raised. I'm just watching it happen a lot in life, not just in Kona, but I mean, I've got franchisees that come in. They get a truck. They do really well.

They hate saying no. The bookings become more than what their equipment can handle. They buy more equipment. They get to this point where they have to, if they buy one more piece of equipment, then they're going to have to hire a manager. And then if you get a couple more after that, you're going to have to hire an event coordinator. And then before you know it, you've got 25, 30, 35 employees. And it's meetings, it's bureaucratic. I mean, not again, not that it's a bad thing, but there's a lot of moving parts at that point.

Yeah, and there's a law of diminishing returns to some degree. I mean, it's just, and not just with money, but also with happiness and joy. And so I really want to preach that because so many of my franchisees, and I mean, an overwhelming majority, I talk to every single one of them and they'll say something like, I'm just tired of the rat race. I'm tired of corporate America. I'm tired of this. I'm tired of that. I want to do my own thing. And I'm like, sometimes, you know, sometimes you're not the best boss in the world. And people have to understand that. Not everybody's an entrepreneur. But there's a lot of people that can be good small business owners. And that's what we try to curate is follow the recipe,

be a good small business owner, make a great living, enjoy your life. I'll, guy, I'll never forget. I was talking to a franchisee down in Florida. And she was very much of an introvert. And she said something to me. And she was a one truck operator. She'd been a one truck operator for 10 years. And she said, Tony, I work seven or eight months a year. I make $100,000 a year.

I've never thought I'd be a small business owner. And I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. And I thought, wasn't that the goal? Wasn't that the goal is to be happy? And so I was just so happy for her. And it really kind of affected me to think, everyone's happiness shouldn't always be trying to take over the world. Tony Lamb, founder of Kona Ice.

Thanks so much for coming back on the show. Guy Raz, I would be on your show any time that you would want me to be on your show. This is such a great opportunity. It's a deal. Appreciate your time. And by the way, if you guys have not heard the Kona Ice episode, please right now as we speak, go back and check it out. Scroll back in your podcast queue or look for the link in the podcast description on your phone.

It is one of the funniest and most fun episodes of how I built this we've ever done in eight years. It's so fun. And there was a lot of laughter. I'd love doing that interview with you, Tony, because it was so fun. Life is funny. Life is funny. It is. Yeah, indeed.

And thanks everybody for listening to the show this week. If you are working on a business and you'd like to be on the show, please send us a one minute message. Tell us a little bit about your business and the issues or the questions that you'd like help with. and hopefully we can help you with that a little bit. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at ID.wondry.com or call 1-800-4331298 and leave a message there. And we'll also put all this information in the podcast description.

This episode was produced by Casey Harmon with music composed by Ramtinara Blewe. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built This Lab.