How I Built This with Guy Raz - Bobbi Brown Cosmetics: Bobbi Brown (2018)

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

Bobbi Brown started out as a makeup artist in New York City, but hated the gaudy color palette of the 1980s. She eventually shook up the industry by introducing "nude makeup" with neutral colors and a natural tone. In 1995, Estée Lauder acquired Bobbi Brown Cosmetics and Bobbi remained there for 22 years, until she realized the brand was no longer the one she had built. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I talk to entrepreneurs all the time who are looking for a way to upgrade their digital footprint. Well, whether you're just starting out or you're scaling your business, Squarespace is the easiest way to build a great website that stands out. It's an all-in-one website platform that gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your products, and get paid. Anyone can use Squarespace's cutting-edge design tools to build an online presence that truly reflects what makes your business special.

There are templates, intuitive drag-and-drop editing, and even an AI-enhanced website builder. Then, Squarespace's built-in analytics tools help you make smarter business decisions. Review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement, and track revenue all in one place. Looking to grow your business, Squarespace even offers fast, easy business financing

through Squarespace capital. Go to Squarespace.com slash built for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code built to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Loans issued by Celtic Bank and serviced by Stripe, all loans subject to credit approval. This show is in partnership with Airbnb. This past summer, I took my family to Vienna, and it was incredible. We spent our days wandering the old streets, stopping for coffee and pastries, visiting museums, and just soaking up the history of one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And one of the things that made the trip so special was the home we booked on Airbnb.

It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com. Hey, everyone, just a quick heads up that we've got a bonus episode coming your way this week.

It's a really fascinating conversation I had about what it takes to innovate with three former guests of the show, pal Kadakia, of Class Pass, Terry Chen of Kickstarter and Tristan Walker of Walker and Company. We recorded it live at our virtual How I Built the Summit back in May, so look for it in your podcast queue this Thursday, July 22nd. And today's show is from our archives. It's a conversation with yet another amazing innovator, Bobby Brown of Bobby Brown Cosmetics. It first ran back in 2018.

Enjoy. I used to hire and interview every person that walked in that brand, and then I didn't anymore. And all of a sudden there were people working on my brand that I never met before and that I might not have hired. And, you know, it was a struggle. And I tried to let go of the details. But then I realized the details were what makes the company so special. And so I kept thinking I could fix it.

If we could just do this. If I could get this, it could be better. And it didn't get better. From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show how a makeup artist named Bobby Brown built a billion-dollar line of cosmetics by doing one simple thing, making women look like they weren't wearing any makeup. When I was a kid back in the 1980s, my older sister had a collection of those porcelain Mardi Gras masks on her bedroom.

wall. And they had these colorful faces painted with blue eye shadow and deep rouge streaks across the cheeks and the reddest lips that no human could possibly be born with. And the thing about those masks is they looked like models you'd see on the cover of fashion magazines. Models who didn't hide their makeup, makeup that was loud and brash and the look was anything but natural. And this is the world that Bobby Brown kind of broke into as a young makeup artist in the fashion industry. She loved everything about makeup except, you know, the way it actually made people look. And so she was searching for a way to use it so that models looked like they weren't really wearing it at all. So, you know, lipstick that was the color of actual lips or blush that didn't make you look like you were blushing

or eye shadow that matched your skin tone. Now, this doesn't seem particularly revolutionary today, but back in the 1980s, when Bobby Brown started to mash together off-the-shelf cosmetics to come up with a new look, she was trying something totally different. She was trying to convince women that makeup could be, well, almost invisible.

And some of her fellow makeup artists told her she'd have zero luck trying to sell that natural look. But of course today, Bobby Brown Cosmetics is a brand that's been estimated to generate over a billion dollars of revenue a year, a year. And Bobby never thought of herself as a businesswoman. She didn't set out to design a whole new line of cosmetics. But even as a little girl in suburban Chicago, she remembers how much she loved watching her mom get ready to go out for the evening. My mother was the most glamorous, stunning woman. She looked like a young Jackie Kennedy.

And I used to watch her put her makeup on with her false eyelashes, her eyeliner. She was skinny as could be. She'd be standing there with a cigarette hanging off of the counter. And I would just be sitting there watching her. And I watched everything. I watched her take her brown pencil, which now we know is lead, and fill in her eyebrows, and with a toothpick put on false eyelashes, and bronzer on her cheeks, and a pale lip on, and go out, you know, with my dad Wednesday nights and Saturday nights.

Wow. And I was in awe. You know, I could never, ever, ever be that glamorous. And I was, you know, the shortest, always, and, you know, not the skinniest. But I was really lucky because the other side of that, I had my grandmother and my mother. my aunt Dallas, who were more like me, really simple, wearing comfortable shoes, you know, people comfortable in their skin. And at the same time, by the way, the girls, the models that were really popular were Cheryl Teagues. Oh, yeah. And all these, you know, blonde Barbie doll-looking

girls, which I was not one of them. I, you know, had thick eyebrows and dark hair and, you know, I wasn't that. And then the thing that changed my life was going to see the movie Love Story. Oh, yes, with, with, Alie McGraw. And I'll never forget. I was somehow in middle, I must have been in seventh grade, and I remember sitting there and looking at this girl with dark, shiny hair, parted down the middle, no apparent makeup. And literally, for the first time of my life, I said, I could be pretty too. She changed my life.

Ali McGraw and love story, change your life. Change my self-esteem and my confidence and figuring out who I am. So when you, someone has time for you to leave home and go to college, what did you study? Well, I went to, you know, with a lot of my friends, there were probably a dozen of us that went freshman year of college to University of Arizona in Tucson. And I was so bored in school, you know, because you would sit in, you know, it's a huge university, and you'd sit in these big, giant halls with 500,000 people and see this little teeny professor at the, you know, lecture us with, you know, an overhead projector. And I certainly, it was not the way that I was meant to learn.

So, you know, I went through the motions and the end of the year, I came home and I told my mom I wanted to drop out of school. And my mother says, you can't. And I said, but why, Mom? It's so boring. I don't want to go to college. She says, I never graduated college, and she says, you have to. I said, but mom, I have no clue what I want to do. And my mother said, I remember the two chairs we were sitting at.

I was sitting cross-legged as I always do. And she said, okay, forget what you want to do with your life. If today was your birthday, you could do anything you want, what would you want to do? And I had no idea. And I remember, as I always do, quickly saying the first thing that popped into my head was, I want to go to Marshall Fields and play with makeup. The big Marshall Fields in downtown Chicago. Yep, actually in the suburbs, because that's where I live, but I wanted to go to the store and play with makeup. So my mom said, why don't you, you know, why don't you study makeup?

Wait, just then? Just then? Why don't you study makeup? And I said, Mom, I don't want to go to beauty school. and she said, no, I'm sure there's a college somewhere where you could study makeup. So I actually, my dad's friend told me about the school in Boston called Emerson that will let me study makeup. This is the summer after your first year of college?

Right. It was literally two weeks before I was supposed to go back to Arizona. And my car was actually, you know, packed when I made the decision to go to Emerson. So it was like a, it was like days before. I flew up with my dad, went to Emerson, and I asked if they had a makeup program and they said, no, but we have something called an interdisciplinary program, and you can create your own major. And sure, you can study makeup. I said, I'm in. I'm going. And honestly, when I got to Emerson, I found myself because it was a school full of kids like me, creative, fiery, entrepreneurial.

and you're creating films and you're creating, you know, all different art projects. And I remember even doing films and, you know, they pair you with someone. And instead of doing things the normal way, which is like, oh, what kind of films should we do? I remember thinking about what kind of makeup I wanted to do and writing the film around the makeup. What was it about makeup that you liked or that spoke to you? Well, it wasn't even just the makeup. It was everything that goes along with it. So I've always been someone that knew how to use makeup.

makeup differently than other people did. And doing theatrical makeup, making someone look old or like a character was amazing for me because in order to do makeup for a play, for a film, you have to read the script, you have to talk to the director. You have to create what the person is going to look like. Did they have a hard life? How do you make them look tired? How do you make them look old? I'd have to go figure it out and understand it. and then make the girls look like that.

So when you finished at Emerson, was your intention to do theater makeup? Yes. So I graduated Emerson in 79, and a month before I graduated, I was in my bedroom reading Mademoiselle magazine, and there was an article about a freelance makeup artist in New York named Bonnie Mallor.

And I never heard of a freelance makeup artist, And she was doing all the fashion shows and doing makeup work for Calvin Klein and Perry Ellis. And I wrote to her. And I said, can I come to New York and assist? Huh. She never wrote me back. Yeah. I was really excited for this, yes?

No, no, no. She didn't write me back, but I looked her up in the phone book. And I called her. On her answering machine, she said, hi, it's Bonnie. If I am not getting back to you, I'm probably on location. call my agent Brian Bantry, 212, blah, blah, blah. So I go to New York for a visit, and I call Brian Bantry. And he said, come on up and talk to me.

And he explained to me how the freelance works, and I started just figuring it out. So I moved to New York, and I didn't know anyone. You know, I had Brian Bantry, I had a meeting with him, and he started, you know, slowly calling me to, to be an assistant to some of his people. He didn't represent me, but he let me be an assistant. So you get to New York and you decide that you want to be a makeup artist. And this was going to be your life. So how did you start to get jobs? Well, I actually thought I would do fashion on the

side until I broke into TV. So one of the things I did, there was another makeup bars. Her name was Bobby. And she was the makeup bars for Saturday Night Live. I assisted her a few times. So, you know, that was cool. And I remember doing a couple times, you know, the makeup artist on the evening news couldn't make it. I would do that. So, you know, it was a – I started a freelance career. The only way I paid my rent at that time was my dad gave me $500 a month to pay my rent. And was, like at this time in your life, did you feel like there were expectations?

expectations that you weren't fulfilling. I don't know. I mean, you know, you came from this sort of middle-class home in Chicago and your dad was a lawyer. And so were you ever thinking like, oh, man, you know, like my parents have these expectations of me and I need to, I don't know. I mean, were you ever thinking like that or worried about that? No. Can I tell you why? One, I have this really weird gift.

And, you know, you don't know it's a gift until you're, you know, of a certain age and look back. I am so naive. So I never think something's not going to work out, and I never did. So I was not worried. You know, yes, I was always anxious about how I was going to pay the rent or if I had enough money for this. And I remember calling my dad one day, and I said, Dad, I just can't stick to this budget. I had a credit card with a limit. I think I had $250 a month limit, and I kept incurring all these fees.

And I said, Dad, I can't stick to this. And he said, all right, stop for a minute. Put it down. I said, okay. He said, stop trying to stick to a budget or create a budget. Why don't you figure out how you're going to make more money? I said, hmm, okay. And I remember telling myself, Monday morning, you get up and you fill your date book with appointments.

So I go sees, as they call it. So I started making appointments. And as long as I, Monday was my day to fill it and then I had the whole week to go see people. So I started calling magazines. I'd look on the masthead and I would see the booking agent. I booked with them. Hi, I'm Bobby Brown. I'm a freelance makeup artist. I'd love to come in and show you my book. I had a, you know, a book of like faces that you'd. A faces that I've done. Okay. Yes. And, you know, you start to make relationships. You come back and see people. And I did that for a while. So here's my question. I mean, what does it,

like, how were you good, like a better makeup artist than someone else? Like, what is it that you were able to offer. Well, all right, so let's go back to the 70s and the 80s. The makeup back then was the epitome of unnatural. Foundation was pink. It stopped at the jawline. It was contour. Eyes were, eyeshadow was yellow and purple and blue. It was all of those things. I was always doing more of a, now it's called a Bobby face and now it's called nude makeup. But back then, It was just I always made people look healthier. I wanted people to not look like they were wearing makeup. And I even had one very, very famous makeup artist, you know, who I asked his opinion on stuff, said,

you will never work because people don't want to look like that. And I don't want to look like that. People want to look made up. And, you know, I just couldn't do it. So even when I was doing makeup on TV, I had these really simple things. things I looked for, I wanted to make the foundation to actually be the color of the skin. Yeah. And I had a mix and blend because most makeup on the market was bad.

And, you know, having a giant kit, I had everything. So I would kind of, you know, smush a lot of it together. And people started taking pictures of it. It looked really good. So you are getting steady work. You're doing more and more magazines. What was the first really big gig that you can remember getting, like, with a amazing? fashion model? Probably two of my hugest aha, like back then, was when I had a six or eight

page spread in American Vogue with one model, Tatiana Petit's, and it was literally full face, full bleed, full face, a makeup story only on, you know, different looks, different makeup, that was like, put me on the map. And then the next map was a cover of Vogue, with Naomi Campbell. Wow. When was that? Now we're into, I think, 88 or 89 when she was just starting to be a huge. Huge deal. Yeah. So, you know, you are doing makeup and that's your life. That's your career. Yes. I was at the top of my game. And by the way, you do magazine work in editorial. It's fantastic. No matter how big it is, you still get $150 a day. Oh, so you really don't make a whole lot of money. No, but when you do advertising and catalog, like catalog at the time was paying between 250 and 500 a day, and that's when you do makeup on a bunch of models for a Sax Fifth Avenue or a Macy's. And then if it's a commercial, you got a couple thousand. But everything you do, you meet people.

And you, you know, you tend to move in packs. If a hairdresser gets booked for something, they book you. And then, you know, then you start doing advertising. And that's, you know, could be up to 5,000 a day. And by the way, while I did those things, I also had a very, very serious relationship. I got engaged. I moved out of the city. I had friends.

I had a normal life. I started having kids at the same time. And I chose that. I chose that. I wanted to be, I wanted to go through that tunnel, put my hair in a ponytail, put my sneakers on, be in the park with my dog. you know, I'd rather be home with my husband and my baby than, you know, stay. I couldn't understand why they wanted me to stay at a fashion shoot until 10 o'clock at night. Just because they took a long time deciding things.

I'm like, no, I'm out of here at 6. Yeah. So in 1990, I guess that was around the time when you started to kind of experiment with your own makeup. Yes. How did that even begin? How did that even happen? So I was pregnant with my first baby, and I was on a photo shoot from Mademoiselle magazine. No, it was self-magine. And it was called makeup shopping at alternative places with makeup artist Bobby Brown. And they took me to different places. And one of the places downtown, I guess I took them, that I took the crew to was Keel's pharmacy. And Keels at the time was this independently owned cool place. I brought everyone down there we were shooting there, and while they were shooting, I was talking to the chemist that was there.

And he had a little, a couple of lipsticks. And I'm like... This is before Keels became what it was like, before it was private equity money or whatever. It was just one shop. One shop. And did it look like a pharmacy? Yes. Okay.

Everyone was wearing white. Exactly. And there was a chemist on site. There was a chemist on site. And he had these lipsticks. And I remember touching them. And I said, wow, these are really nice. He said, oh, yeah, I make those.

And I said, you make them? And he says, yeah, I said, oh, I would love to be able to make a lipstick. He said, I'll make it for you. I said, I said, all right, I said, what I want, you can't buy. I said, I want something that doesn't smell. I want it to be creamy but not greasy. I want it to look like lip color. I can't find a lipstick that looks like lip color.

And he's like, what do you mean? I said, well, and I pulled out my tope eye pencil and my pinky blush. And I said, look at when you put this together, if you put a little bit of balm on it and blotted on your lips, he's like, all right, give me those things. And he went home and he sent it to me. And I said, oh my God, I love this. I said, I bet I could sell this. And he said, all right, why don't you sell it for $15? He said, I'll make it, you sell it.

You'll get $750. I'll get $750. I thought, okay, that's a deal. So I had a lipstick that I called Brown because I thought it was brown-based, not to be. because of my name. And then I thought everyone's going to love that. And then I said, you know what, not everyone has the same color lips. And I started studying people's lip color. And then I sat down and I thought about all the different lip colors. And then I said, you know, some people don't like lip color lipstick. They like red, orange, someone likes a good beige, a pink. But I said,

you don't need 15 different pinks in your makeup kit. Let me make the ideal pink. Let me make the ideal orange. So I sat down and I thought of 10 different colors. I worked with the chemist. He made these colors. And I thought, all right, let's put a number, one to 10, but let me name them. And I wasn't going to name them the way lipsticks are named. You know, cherries in the snow. And I'm like, why don't we call them beige, pink, orange, red. So, you know, raisin, I named them what they look like. So you were doing like more understated shade. Yeah, understated. And what was the market. What was on the market? Wearable, by the way. The word wearable. People could put them on and actually look good. How's that for a concept? So you would take like, I'm just trying to, to get the right color to, what was the name of this chemist, by the way?

Stephen. Stephen. So to get Stephen the right color, you would take like, I don't know, paint or different makeups and just like rub it together in like a petri dish or something. Yeah. And I would, you know, I would either mail it to him or I would say do this. And yeah, you know, back and forth. back and forth. He made them for me, and I did everything else. And you said, yeah, make, like, how many? Like five, ten sticks? I think, you know, he probably made a hundred of each color. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, no, once we agreed that we would be partners, there was nothing in writing. It was just, wow, this could be interesting. It wasn't anything more than that. And he had, like, a fabrication plant or the ability to, like, make moldings of...

Yeah, he did. I think he did it in his home. You know, it wasn't... It was his side thing because he was a chemist. And what were you going to sell each stick of lipstick for again? $15. $15. Yes, $15. And when I first started, my plan was to sell them to models, to editors. And then one day I was having lunch with a girlfriend who was the beauty editor of Glamour magazine at the time. And she said, so what's going on?

You know, we both had young babies and I talking about the kids. And I said, you know, I'm doing, let me show you this thing. She goes, oh, my God, that's so cool. She said, can I write about it? And you had kind of a reputation in the industry because you were a makeup artist. Yes. You get this article in glamour and what happens? People started calling up and ordering lipsticks.

Wow. And, you know, it wasn't like, oh, my God, I'm going to be rich. Oh, my God, I could pay my mortgage this month. It was just, you know, steady things coming in. And we got a bunch of offers. You know, people wanted to purchase lipstick. So I don't even think, you know, we sold. 400 of them. I mean, we sold a bunch of them.

This is not called Bobby Brown at this point, right? Yes, it was. It was. It was called Bobby Brown. I didn't know what else to call it. You just put your name on the side. Yes. And that was really cool. And then I meet the lady at Bergdorf, and that's when things actually needed to change. You meet who at Bergdorf?

I ended up going to a party in the city with some friends, and friends that actually eventually were going to be our partners in the company. And I met her friend Allison. And I said, thanks for inviting me. I'm Bobby. She said, nice to meet you. And I said, what do you do? And she said, I'm the cosmetics buyer at Bergdorf-Goodman. Wow. That's nice. Well, I never even shopped at Bergdorf-Goodman back then. And I said, whoa, I'm doing this line of lipsticks. You know, perhaps you want to look at them. And she said, love to. Let me bring him in. So what happened? You went, you brought your lipstick to show her than a couple days later? She brought them in. I mean, I had no press release. I had nothing. She called me back and she said, they're really interested. We'd love to take them.

And that's when I realized I had it really changed the way we were doing things. And, you know, I had to find a different way to scale up than the chemist because that was the only way he knew. So I parted ways with the chemist. And I had a find. find a lab to recreate the lipsticks the way I wanted. And we needed to find someone to do it. I remember making all these calls. But then one day, I was in an elevator. And I said hi to the girl in the elevator.

And she said hi. I think we were on the 11th floor. So we had a few minutes. Elevator in your apartment building? My apartment building in New York City. And I said, hi. She said, hi. And I said, what do you do?

She said, oh, I work at a cosmetics lab in Queens. And I said, oh, do you have a card? And I had my lipsticks recreated there, and they made my lipstick. I met her in the elevator. Coming up, more chance meetings for Bobby Brown and how they helped her grow the company, and then eventually how that company got away from her. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. So it's the early 1990s, and Bobby Brown has come up with 10 new shades of lipstick. She's got a new cosmetics lab to make them and a department store that wants to sell them, Bergdorf-Goodman. But in order to get things going, she needs an infusion of cash. We pretty much emptied our bank account, which was... I remember 5,000. My husband remembers 10,000. I trust him more than I remember my memory.

And we actually partnered with these friends of ours who one girl was in PR and the husband was in the cosmetics industry. So the four of us partnered together. What were their names? Their names were Roz and Ken Landis. And why did you decide that you want to partner with other people? Because my husband and I did not have the expertise. You know, we had no idea. We were, you know, 31-year-old kids, you know, with a new baby. He was in law school. He was a real estate developer. I was a makeup artist. I knew how to make these make the lipsticks. I knew what it should be. And we were friends, this couple that we were friends with, he had been in the cosmetics industry. And she was in PR. So it was, you know, a magical pairing. That's how we started the brand. And Bobby Brown is born as a product at Bergdorf-Goodman.

Yes. And how does it do when it debuts there? Well, we thought we would sell 100 lipsticks the first month, which, you know, that was the thought, and we did 100 the first day. And were you in the store? We were. On Fifth Avenue, right? On Fifth Avenue. And there was no room in the cosmetics department.

So they put us on a table outside of the cosmetics department where I think they had, you know, handbags. And so, you know, it wasn't for any other reason, but people thought it was a brilliant genius idea that we marketed ourselves apart from the noise of the cosmetics floor. So you could finance it with whatever cash you had between the four of you and then you would sell product and then you would get paid by Bergdorf. When did it go to the next store? Well, we were at Bergdorf. Well, we added pencils and then we added eye shadow. Like, we did everything not, like, strategic, but as they came up. Right.

And we added them. And we were pretty much with the same lab for most of the time. And then Bergdorf, you know, one day we were doing so well at Bergdorf Goodman, they said, you know, we're a sister company of Neiman Marcus. They would love to try you in four stores. So we opened up four stores in Neiman's. And a store is like a counter, right? A counter, yes. They call them doors, actually.

So we opened four doors, four stores, started at. adding products, and I would visit the stores and do personal appearances, usually with my husband and my baby or babies, you know, in tow because we always, you know, I never like to be apart from them. And they always came. And I would travel to these markets and I would be on their local TV. I'd be in their newspapers. So it was a full on, you know, press thing. Were there, did you ever get a vibe from people like, well, who are you? Certainly, you know, and especially in Dallas, you know, where they would look at me like she's the plain Jane type, you know, because in Dallas, the makeup, the hair, the jewelry, you know, it took a while to... And that's Neiman Marcus territory. That's Neiman. That's the fancy stuff, you know. It took a while to be beloved by those women. But also at the same time, I was becoming a known beauty expert on the Today Show. which was really a major launch in the brand and the business. So the story behind The Today Show was that I wrote my first book about cosmetics, about makeup.

Yeah. And then I happened to be in Florida doing a personal appearance for one of my makeup products and also for my first book. And I'll never forget it was in the inner circle, which were the fancy ladies at Neiman Marcus. I finished my speech, and I said, any questions. And this little red-headed lady, you know, grandma type, raised her hand. And I went back, you know, I remember I put my hand on her shoulder. She was so cute. And she said, yes, I have trouble keeping my lipstick on.

How do I do it? And I said, well, and I gave her the answer. And she looked at me and she says, thank you. She said, are you Jewish? And I said, yes, I am. And she said, I've seen you on the Today Show. I've been on once. I said, thank you.

And she said, as a Jewish, This is off microphone. She said, you've done so much. Is there anything else you want to do? I said, I don't know. I said, I don't know. Maybe I'd love to be a regular on the Today Show. She said, honey, Jeff Zucker is my grandson.

Jeff Zucker was the executive producer of the Today Show at the time. Oh, my God. And it was a Friday. Monday I was on the Today Show. I was in my dressing room. You know, my PR team at the time was beyond excited, doing how to put your makeup on something, probably Katie was interviewing me. Jeff came up and he said, Grammy, you know, wanted me to have you on. I said, that's awesome. And he said, I hear you want to be a regular. I said,

I'd love to be a regular. He says, okay, you're a regular. I said, when can I come back? He said, how about next month? I said, okay, once a month. He said, okay, fine. I was on the Today Show for about 12 years, 15 years. And honestly, being a beauty expert on the Today Show, probably put me on the map. And you did this at least at the beginning for free? I know. They never paid me a nickel. And I never ever pushed my brand. They would say Bobby Brown from Bobby Brown Cosmetics. It was an amazing thing because it established me as a beauty expert, not just someone who makes makeup. It was really my expertise. So it separated me. the person from the brand, which was good, but it also really helped the brand.

You, in 1995, five years after you first make those 10 lipsticks, you get an offer, I guess pretty early on, you guys are approached by big, the big cosmetic companies who wanted to buy your brand. And I guess you rejected a couple offers at the beginning, right? Who, by the way, who were they? Who offered you? There was a lot of talks with Shishato. Oh, yeah.

The Japanese company? Yes. A lot of meetings, a lot of talks. No official offer, but a lot of meetings. Okay. And then there was a Dallas-based company that tried to buy us, a finance company that basically finally said, if you won't sell to us, we're just going to knock you off with another makeup bars, which they did, which is fine. I'm never afraid of that. Oh, they created a knockoff brand?

Yeah. Well, they, well, it was a different brand. But yes, a makeup artist, you know, a well-known makeup artist that created products. Is it still out there in the market? Yeah, Laura Mercier, you know, it was a competitor. I mean, we were always very different and that was fine. They wanted to kind of buy you out and have you. They did. They wanted to buy us.

We weren't for sale. We didn't think they were the right people to buy us. And we weren't for sale when, you know, we got the call from S.D. Lauder either. This is five years after you launch it. S.T. Latter calls you. And you take the call. Yeah, I kind of think it was four years. Four years.

It was four years. So I got a call from Frederick Fakhai, who, you know, had a salon and was a well-known hairdresser. And he said, you know, Leonard Lauder would like an introduction to you. Can I do that? And I said, sure, sure. So we were invited at dinner at Leonard Laudder's home. My partner, Roz and I, were invited one night to his home. and him and his wife at the time, Evelyn, we had a beautiful dinner and fell madly in love with him, with her.

And he basically said, you know, I'm really interested in buying your company. He said what he said to me, he says, you've done such an incredible job. You are beating us in the stores. And we were beating Estee Lauder in Neiman Marcus at the time. You are beating us. We can't beat you. So we thought we would buy you. And you were open to hearing offers?

Well, when Leonard said to me, you know, that we can help you grow your business and you could do what you really love, which is be creative and work on shoots, work on the brand but not have to worry about the details. And we could help expand your business and you can have complete autonomy, you know, which means I could do what I wanted with the company and still be in charge. And they were offering 100%. They were going to buy 100%. 100%. And I guess we'll just burst the bubble here. You did sell to them, which we'll get to. We did.

But no one's ever gotten the number right. And I'm not good at numbers and I can't even tell you what it is. But it was like more than I could ever have imagined. It was a lot of cash. Yes. Now you had to, of course, split it with your partners and then pay your taxes. But you were left with more cash than you'd ever had in your life. Yes.

All right. Just pause for a sec. Looking back on that decision in 1995 to sell to Estee Lauder for whatever price they offered you, some people say $74 million, let's say $50 million, whatever it was. More. More. 100 million. Something, yeah. Was it the right decision to make?

A hundred percent. It was the right decision to make. 100%. You couldn't have scaled Bobby Brown to what it is today without that investment. I don't know, but I didn't want to. Because? Because I just wanted to have a fulfilling life with my family, my friends. And my kids.

Yeah. There's no question. I have no regrets. Becoming a billionaire wasn't that. That wasn't like, oh. No, no, millionaire is fine. You don't need to be a billionaire. Yeah.

All right. So Leonard Lauder writes you a big check and Esté Lauder now owns Bobby Brown. What does that mean? Does that mean that you then become an employee of Estee Lauder? Oh, yes. They paid you a salary. You were an employee with a 401K and all that stuff. Yes.

Yes. And at the beginning was it. Did you like it? I loved it. It was fantastic. I loved it for, you know, out of the 22 years, I probably loved it for 15. And so the idea was once Estee Lauder was running the business side, you didn't have to worry about going to banks for financing. You didn't have to worry about supply chain.

You didn't have to worry about payroll or accounting or not filing a letter with the Office of Tax and Revenue. And you didn't want to do any of that stuff. Oh, I had no interest. I didn't like the big corporate meetings. I would sit there in some meetings, and I know I used to drive people crazy because I didn't do things the corporate way. And I'm sure people either looked at me as brilliant or really difficult or, you know, whatever. You know, the thing is, unfortunately, men could be brilliant when women are considered difficult. I can't imagine that would have been an easy transition.

It wasn't easy, and I'm sure it was harder for, you know, our part. partners at the time, they didn't stay very long. You know, we, we had a little bit of a tough relationship, you know, for a while because, you know, you start a company with friends and, you know, things happen and things get tough. And it was a tough time. There was a bunch of years where there was a struggle between, you know, Roz and I and then the four of us. And, you know, after, you know, we sold the company, they moved Roz off the brand.

And she ended up working for the company for a while and then she left. And... A strained your friendship. Oh, really strained it. Do you think that it's a good idea in general to avoid going to business with friends? Yes. It's not a good idea. Okay, all right.

100%. And, you know, we were not. not friends for many years after we sold the company. And we just recently got back together the past couple years. So, you know, life is interesting. You walked away from Estee Lauder in 2016. Yes. Maybe he's not the right term. I don't know. Right. But I don't even know what the right term is. It was a joint decision. And was that hard? I mean, your name, your company, you built it. Right. And that's it. You're out. Well, like probably two to five years. Five years was a struggle.

The last five years? The last five years was a struggle. But just because... Just because, you know, it got so big. The company got so big. The corporation got so big. They bought so many other companies. It was growing.

It was huge. I am not a follow-the-leader kind of person. I am the leader, okay? I can't help it. And if I see things not working where it makes sense to me and wasting energy and time, I don't like it. And I like to do it. differently. So, you know, and I like to try new things and invent new things. So, yeah, it was

always a struggle, always a struggle. And so then the last couple years were really tough. Like what happened? Oh, my God. There was just, you know, they started, I used to approve and hire and interview every person that walked in that brand. And then I didn't anymore. And all of a sudden there were people working on my brand that I never met before and that I might not have hired and, you know, it was a struggle. And I tried to let go of the details, but then I realized the details were what makes the company so special. And so I kept thinking I could fix it. So I would walk in every day with an imaginary, you know, tape around my arms saying, okay, let me fix this. Let me fix this. Let me fix this. I couldn't. And, you know,

the last year was really tough. I'm sure they were not happy with me. me. I was not happy with them. And it just was time for both of us to move on. Was it tough in the sense like you dreaded going into the office in the morning? Yes. Wow. Not only dreaded going in in the morning, I was depleted and spent when I came home. So for two years, my Aunt Alice, who was 80 at the time, would say to me, it's time. My husband wouldn't say, are you ready? Like my friends would say, come on, enough is enough already. And I kept saying no, because I think if we could just do this, if I could get this,

you know, it could be better. And it didn't get better. Like, I'm imagining I'm walking down some street in New York. I pass you and I know it's Bobby Brown. I'm like, oh my God, Bobby Brown. I love your makeup. And you're on your way to work and you would say, oh, yeah, thank you so much. And I wouldn't know that you were miserable no, walking to your powerful job at Bobby Brown. No. Honestly, if you really asked me why I left, I needed to be the boss again. Yeah. Like when you're the boss, then you know, okay, something doesn't work, we could fix it. So, yes, when I left Bobby, it wasn't easy. The second it happened where I went down the elevator and I knew that was that second it was done, I had a relief come over me. Like, I can't tell you. The first relief was, oh, my God, all these problems are lifted. All right. So here's a thing. We've had lots of founders in the company who sold and then, you know, some were angry with the way it was run and some of mixed feelings, some indifferent. It depends. But, you know, Ben and Jerry, for example, those guys, they'll knock Ben and Jerry's now and again in a good natured way, but they will still, they're still the face of the brand and they're happy to kind of be the brand. Not happy, but they are the brand ambassadors.

Yeah. So did you ever think of doing that? No. No. No. No. You wouldn't just... It was offered to me.

Like the Bobby Brown, I mean, the face of the... You didn't... Had no interest in that. No interest. I don't care how much money they offered me. Why? Why not? Because what I love, I'm an entrepreneur.

I like to mold and shape and be in control of how things are. Yeah. And so, no. I have, no, I had no interest. You know, honestly, it's been a while. It took, I'm not going to say I walked out the door and it was fine. There was a lot of emotion the first month or two. There was a lot of emotion, you know, the first year.

Now it's, you know, year and a half. I literally could look at what's happening there and I unfollowed everything. So I don't see anything. But when I do see it, it's like there's nothing there because it's not the company I found it. And it's not the company that it's not my company. It's their company. And yes, I'm really. proud of the products. I'm proud of everything I did. But, you know, the world has changed and the

direction they're going is fine is what they want to do. And by the way, were you, were you prevented, are you prevented from your contract with Bobby Brown of starting a makeup line? Oh, yes. You can't never do that for the rest of your life? No, no, that's not accurate, you know, but I, my name, I sold my name. So you can't, you can't use a name Bobby Brown anymore? No, no, but I would never, you know, I would. I would never put, even if I could, I would not put my name on a product anymore because I have to be the face of that product. I don't want to be responsible for everything. I did that already. So, Bobby, with all this success that you've had in your career, how much of it do you think is because of your intelligence, your hard work, and how much of it because of luck? I think that my intelligence is mostly emotional intelligence, which is, you know, dealing with what's around me.

I am incredibly lucky and, you know, fortuitous and grateful and all of those things. I'm not the only one that works hard. I am not the only one that seizes opportunities. I don't know why, you know, things I do are successful. Not everything I've done is successful, but I keep going. And I'm really good when I'm really good at, and I hope there's other entrepreneurs out there that understand this, I am really good at hiring people that are good at things that I'm not. That's really important because I'm not good at everything.

And I told my aunt, Alice, I'm not really good at anything. I'm just good at telling people what to do. I'm really good at telling people what to do. That's Bobby Brown, founder of Bobby Brown Cosmetics. And although she can no longer use her own name as a brand, she can sell her own makeup again. Her non-compete with Estee Lauder ended last year, and she just came out with a brand new line of makeup called Jones Road. And by the way, how lucky were you to have such a cool name, Bobby?

I never liked my name growing up. You hated it? Oh, yes. When they decided what to name me, I was named after my great grandmother, Bertha. Thank God they didn't name me Bertha. I'm not sure anyone would use lipstick called Bertha Brown. Berta Brown. You could just, that could be your new line.

You could be Berta Brown. Maybe it's time. Maybe Bobby, maybe it's time. Yeah. Bert, I'm not sure that would work. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week. It was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by Rumtin Aeroblewe. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR.