How I Built This with Guy Raz - Calendly: Tope Awotona

Episode Date: September 14, 2020

After emigrating from Nigeria to the US to attend college, Tope Awotona worked as a door-to-door salesman and eventually set out to become a tech entrepreneur. He launched a series of e-commerce businesses that quickly fizzled when he realized he had no passion for them. But then he landed on an idea he was truly excited about: designing software that would minimize the hassle and headache of scheduling meetings. In 2013, he cashed in his 401k and went into debt to build Calendly, a scheduling service expected to make about $60 million this year.Pre-order the How I Built This book at: https://smarturl.it/HowIBuiltThis See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.ca. Hey, it's Guy here. So what are some of the key traits that successful entrepreneurs have in common? Why do some people succeed when others fail? How do you build something with no connections, no money, and no. experience? And can you learn to develop the skills and traits it takes to become an entrepreneur? Well, to find out the answers to all these questions, pick up a copy of my new book. It's called

How I Built This. And if you love the show, you will love this book. And if you order before September 15th, I'll send you a free autographed bookplate to put inside the book. Just visit gairoze.com or how I built this.com to order. Or pick up how I built this wherever you get your books and thanks. How much was it going to cost you to get this prototype built? A little over $200,000 is what we thought it would cost. Wow. So I had to empty every single dollar in my 401K, use every single dollar my savings account.

I had to borrow a little bit in top of that. I ended up borrowing a little bit from Lending Club. At a high interest rate. I had a very high interest rate and maxed out all my credit cards. And put it all in on this idea that at that, time didn't even have a name. From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Tope Awatana turned his frustration with scheduling meetings into

Calendly, a multi-million dollar business that makes setting up a meeting quick and simple. One of the things we talk about a lot on this show, and a thing that is such a cruelly. crucial part of building anything is rejection, hearing the words no. For some people, it's easy. It doesn't phase them. But for most people, rejection is hard and overcoming the fear of it, building the resilience it takes to withstand the endless knows. It comes from practice. Think about previous guests we've had on the show like Mark Cuban and Sarah Blakely. Their earliest jobs were in sales. They had to make the same pitch over and over again and hear hundreds and hundreds of people tell them no over and over again.

Same thing with entrepreneurs like Davis Smith, who built Cotopaxi and David Nealman of JetBlue. As young men, they had to do what is probably the most difficult form of salesmanship, going door to door as missionaries. Most of the time, the doors slammed in their faces. But like anything else, eventually you get used to it. And it helps build up a thick skin, which, of course, served all of these entrepreneurs very well later on. As it did for today's guest, Tope Awatana.

Toppe also spent his early years as a salesman, first door-to-door selling alarm systems and later doing million-dollar software deals with major companies. And all of the nose he heard along the way? served him especially well when he eventually went on to launch and then fail at his first two businesses, losing tens of thousands of dollars along the way. But like other people you've heard on the show, Tope was able to take all of that disappointment, all of the slammed doors and all the meetings that went nowhere and all of the failed aspirations, and to think of it, more like research,

so that when he finally set out to start a business that did, and is doing really, really well, he had a better idea of what he wasn't supposed to do in a much better sense of the steps he needed to take in order to succeed. And what Tope wound up building was Callantly. It's a meeting scheduling platform that he started because he got so frustrated trying to schedule his own meetings and couldn't stand the endless back-and-forth emails.

And today, just seven years after it launched, it's a $60 million a year business, and as you'll hear, it reached that point with just a small amount of outside investment. But before we get to Callendly, a little about Topes' earliest years. He's Nigerian, and he spent his childhood in Africa, growing up in the suburbs of Lagos. His mom was a pharmacist, and his dad was a microbiologist who was also pretty entrepreneurial. He sold chemicals to different businesses, and Toppe's early childhood was pretty pretty good. great. Yeah, so lived in a number of different places, but where I lived for 12 years, you call it like a lower upper class neighborhood for, you know, in that part of the world.

You knew all of our neighbors. We're friends with all the kids in the neighborhood. My parents were, you know, very active in the neighborhood. So everyone kind of knew them. And they, they were people who were really kind of very magnetic. And so they just really attracted a lot of people, very generous people, very given people, and people just, there were always people around, is what I remember as a kid. Were you a well-behaved kid? Depends on who you ask. I knew how to get into enough trouble to really terrorize my siblings, but not really face the wrath of my parents. Were your parents strict?

My mom was. My dad was not so much. They could not have been more opposite. So your mom was the kind of disciplinarian. Your dad was more kind of chilled out. Yes. So my dad was, hey, you know, let's eat 10 ice cream sandwiches for dinner, if that's what we want. And my mom's like, no ice cream in this house. Were you a pretty good student as a little kid? I'd say so. Very good, I'd say. Was that something that your parents stressed at home, education? They did, but not, you know, I don't remember having a lot of conversations with my parents

about my grades. There was just an expectation that you performed well in school, as they did. I remember as a kid, you know, probably eight or seven, my mom would, would argue with my dad about how she really thought it was important for us to go to Harvard. And I didn't know what Harvard was, but I know that my mom thought it was important. And when you were little, like eight, nine, ten, eleven, would people talk about you as a, as a smart kid? Or they say, oh, there's tope. He's really smart. Or did you just feel like just everyone you knew was pretty good at school? I don't know if people did. I think the first time it occurred to me was,

so I ended up skipping a few grades, you know, like in primary school. And I think that's when I knew. And I think my mom was a little worried about what that might mean and how that might play out. So I think that was really the first time I became conscious of it. I guess when you were 12 years old, Your father, your father was tragically killed.

And I can't imagine what that was like for your brothers and your mom. What do you remember about that time, about how you felt? I remember that it changed everything I thought I knew. So as a kid, I, you know, my dad was my hero, right? And, you know, because when you're 12 and your dad lets you get away with everything, he's your favorite parent. Yeah. I would stay up late at night until my dad came home, no matter how late that was. So after he died, you know, I went through, you know, a period of time in which I lost a lot of weight.

I didn't really have an appetite for many, many months after that. I became an insomniac at the age of 12. These are things I now recognize that are, you know, signs of trauma. but at the time I didn't really recognize it. You were 12 years old when your father died. Um, and you were there. You saw his death. I did.

It was a robbery, essentially. A car jacket. I can't imagine how you were able to cope with that as a kid. I mean, I mean, it's hard for kids to process emotions easily sometimes. I read that you kind of went back to school and kind of carried on. I did. I did. You know, I think some of that is the Nigerian wing, to be honest with you. But I also think within that my mom had a very, my mom was a very strong and resilient person. And, you know,

one of the things I really appreciate about the Nigerian culture is really everybody's your family, right? Even your family friends are essentially, think of themselves as your family. So I think she was able to, you know, a lot of people rallied around her. and supported her. But she definitely, it was a very, very difficult time for her. But I think she also really wanted us to, I don't want to say move on with our lives,

but I think she wanted us to, you know, she thought the best thing that we could do is proceed with our lives. That's what would make our dad proud. Your dad at the time of his death had, he kind of had gone through starting several businesses. is and some of them were kind of did okay and um but i guess he never kind of fulfilled his dream of really making it big right you know i don't know i think that's one of the things i really miss

actually is you know when you're 12 years old there are a lot of things you want to ask you know you want to ask your parents that you don't get to so i don't really know what his dreams were i do feel as i think about it as an adult now is i think he knew that he was uh incredibly he was incredibly gifted in so many different ways and i think he felt like He hadn't done his best work yet. So from what I understand, when you finish high school in Legos, you had an opportunity, an opportunity to came to you to go study in the United States? Is that what happened?

Yes. It was always a given that I was going to go to college in the States. But then what happened was because my mom also retired at the same time, the whole family ended up moving to the States at 96. You had family already in the U.S.? Correct. So my older siblings were here, until my older siblings were here, as well as my aunt and her husband and her kids. And as a matter of fact, when we first came to the States, we live with them.

Where did you move to? Marietta, Georgia. And what was the plan that you would go to university? I mean, you'd finished high school. So what was that the plan? So I took the SAT. But then my mom was like, you can't go to college at 15. You're too young.

So I ended up going to high school. I went in Wheeler High School, Marietta. I went there for two years. And I'm curious. I mean, what was it like for you? I mean, you'd come from Lagos to Marietta, Georgia, and now you were a student there. Was it totally different? Was it a completely different world for you?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, everything from the way classes worked to uniforms, right? So the very fact that you didn't have to wear uniforms was very, very different. from what I was used to. One other thing that was very different from me was in high school, Nigeria, I was a very popular kid. That was very different here. Just new country, very different culture.

And, you know, most of the people in the high school, they've known each other for many, many years because they went to middle school together. They went to maybe went to elementary school together. And that was, I guess it was tougher socially than academically for sure. Yeah. I mean, do you remember, I mean, coming from Legos where everybody around you was black, right? I mean, the leaders, business leaders, and people were powerful and also the poorest people, everybody around you was black and coming to America where racial issues are front and center. Was that sort of jarring or something that you didn't expect when you arrived? Not really. And that's not to say there weren't issues, but I think I was probably blind to them. And I think part of the reason why is, in a lot of ways, I've always kind of been the odd man out and everything I've ever done. So even in high school, Nigeria, I was two years younger than most of the kids. And so I've been kind of used to being the odd man out and just really being able to connect with all kinds of different people and not really thinking much about the differences.

So I probably was blind to some of those things. All right. So here you are and you graduate high school. So presumably at this point, you know, you're, you're going to go to college. You had the opportunity to go when you were 15, but now you're 17 or maybe close to 18. So you decide to go to the University of Georgia initially. Is that right? Correct.

And what did you study when you got there? What was your focus? Computer science initially. But I graduated with a degree in business. And why computer science? Yeah, so I picked computer science for two reasons. So back in 95, Windows 95 was launched, and that really opened my eyes. I just saw all these grown adults, you know, tripping over themselves to buy software. I thought that was really fascinating. I also noticed at the time that the world's richest man was Bill Gates. And so my little teenage mind, I started to connect the dots around. Maybe this is where the world is going. So when you got to the University of Georgia, I mean, this is like 98, I guess. 98.

I'm still early days of the Internet. Did you like it? Did you like living in Athens? Did you like being a student at UGA? I loved it. I loved it. I felt like I actually came into my own and I was developing my own independence. And how were you, did you work while you were a student as well?

I did. So I initially worked at CVS. Like as a cashier? Yeah, as a cashier. But then I, you know, like most college kids, I wanted more money. And somehow, I think through a classmate or a friend, I learned about door-to-door sales. So you thought that's what I want to do to make more money? Yeah.

So I got a job selling alarm systems door-to-door. Wow. This is while you were a student, like during the summertime? Yeah, yes, it was a summer job. Talk about like the most difficult job ever. I would knock on people's doors right before dinner time. And so I'm pretty sure half the people who bought from me bought from me just so they could get back to their dinner. And were you doing this in Athens, Georgia?

Correct. So in Athens, Georgia, so we would go knock on doors for three, four hours and try to make a sale. And what would happen was the job was strictly commissioned, right? So which is, you know, you could potentially work all week, all month. And make nothing. Yeah, that's right. How did you do? Did you make decent cash that summer?

I did. So what happened was my very, very first day, I sold two alarm systems, which allowed me to make $500, which at age, you know, 19, that was a lot of money to me. Yeah, that's great money. It was the most money I'd ever made in a day. And interestingly, the rest of the week I did not sell anything. And so the very fact that I saw it. sold to alarm systems the first day. I think if that sequence would have been reversed,

if I would have gone the first four days without selling any alarm systems, who knows how my career would have changed. But that's what happened. Did you like going door to door selling things that's really hard? I mean, because people slam doors in your face and they're not interested and they say no soliciting. Did you like that? I liked it. Huh. And I'll tell you why I liked it because of those first two days. Because you made the money. Yeah. And I think it ultimately gave me the understanding that there's a hit rate, right? So if you knock on X amount of doors, you will ultimately make X amount of dollars. So to me, it was a very predictable thing. And in between, there's a lot of rejection. You know, people weren't happy that I interrupted their dinner.

That part was tough. But the rejection of people not really wanted to buy, that didn't really faze me. The other thing I really liked was it was the first time, like, I could really influence how much money I made. I could work harder. I could improve my skill and not wait six months, 12 months to make more money. I could make more money the next day, the next week. So did being a salesperson just come naturally to you, do you think? I guess you could say so. I did feel like it was stretching me in new ways that I had never been stretched before. So keep in mind at the time, I'm still a computer science major, right? So I was used to a different form of any electrical stimulation. I'm coding. You write coding. You instruct the computer to do these things for you

and you see what you create that was fulfilling. But then this was a whole different, a whole different form of fulfillment and satisfaction. You were influencing people's decisions, right? That was fulfilling in a way. So you graduated from college. And when you did, did you have a ton of job offers? No, far from it.

I think one of the things I've learned, you know, many, many years after it, is I think being the child of immigrants, I think maybe hurt my understanding of how, to how to be successful in the business world in America. And so I didn't do some of the things that my peers were doing, like internships. I didn't do those things. In hindsight, I should have done those things.

And, you know, my parents would have known to, I mean, they would have probably pushed me to do that if they were from here. But they didn't, my mom didn't know that herself. Not to put the blame on her, but I think there's, I am probably more savvy about how those things work today. But from what I read about you, I mean, you did land a couple of pretty good sales jobs out of college. Like I think for a couple of years, you were working for like a luxury travel agency. And then you got a job with IBM selling software. What was that like? You know, it took me a while to, you know, there was a little bit of an adjustment, right?

I spent a lot of time selling to consumers in the last few years. And so now I was selling to IT managers, right, to IT people and also selling in some cases to CIO. So I got exposed to a much more complicated, a much more sophisticated sales process. But I loved it. I found myself not really, like I enjoy the work I did. But, you know, I've always been a very, very impatient person. And so, you know, at the time I looked at the CEO of IBM and he was in his 60s. and it took them all 40 years to get there, and I didn't know that I had that much time to wait.

So I wanted to be in an accelerated path. And so I started looking for a much smaller software company that was growing at a much faster rate. So at the time, you know, IBM was probably growing double digits every single year. And some of the businesses that I was looking at where, you know, probably growing double digits every month. And so really wanted to, um, to work for a smaller company with more growth opportunity. So you leave, and where did you find? I went to Kansas City to work for a company called Perceptive Software.

It made enterprise content management software. So I think of it as software to manage paper files, right? So digitalist files and manage the approval workflows around it. So this is like B2B stuff, right? Yeah. And so I really enjoyed working for the company. But while I was at the company, part of the onboarding process is you get a chance to meet with the founders. And, you know, they tell the story, the company's founding story.

And that story just really opened up my eyes. Why? You know, it was the first time I heard about the founding story of a company, of a successful company. Because before then, I thought that most people who started, you know, very successful companies, They just hit the ground running on day one. They knew exactly what product they want to deliver to the market. Customers receive it, they accepted. They break their backs to pay their money.

But what I learned from this founder was it took them eight years to really get to product market fit, as we call it today. And the idea pivoted many, many, many different times. And the reason that that business became successful was had more to do with their ability to learn from their customers. their own resilience. So from that point on, I think it made me realize that, you know, entrepreneurship was way more attainable than I thought it was before that. So I thought I had to be, you know, I just, yeah, just the story made me realize that I didn't have to have all the answers. But if I saw something that I thought needed to be changed, I just needed to take action and learn and persevere. And so because of that, I started, it kind of rekindled this very, you know,

this latent idea that I had of becoming a tech entrepreneur. And so from that point on, I started dabbling in a bunch of small businesses. While you were at the software company? Correct. So I think I had the ideas while I was there. I don't think I acted on the first one until, I think, right after I left that company. So I guess you ended up working for the software company for like three years. And then you left Kansas City, went back to Atlanta in around 2010.

Correct. Why? What happened? A few things. So at the time, my mom was, my mom was really sick. And she ended up being in the ICU for about a month, month and a half or so. And she was recovering from the complicated case of malaria. And so because she was recovering from that, I think at the time, she, looking back on it now, she had cancer at the time. as she was recovering from that. And she was just in a in a tough place.

And I wanted to be closer to her. I was thinking about going back to Atlanta. And then at the same time, I got recruited by a company in Atlanta that one of my best friends was working at. And so that kind of accelerated the decision to come back to Atlanta. Was it also a software company? Yes. It was another software company doing a very similar thing.

but for a, you know, as in selling enterprise software, but selling it to a different industry. So this company that you joined, I think it was called Verdefort. Is that right? That's correct. And I guess while you were there, you meet, you meet like this business contact to, I don't know the whole story,

but he starts giving you ideas for how you can, like, start your own company? Yeah. So he told me that he'd actually helped a number of different entrepreneurs start a number of different e-commerce businesses. So he said most people start e-commerce businesses because they want to sell something in particular. They want to sell hand sanitizers.

They want to sell masks, whatever it may be. It's like, well, that's one way to start a business. But he said an interesting, a really interesting way to start a high-growth e-commerce business is to instead start a business around keywords that have a lot of traffic that you can optimize for. So instead of starting a business to sell hand sanitizers because you want to sell hand sanitizers, what if you started a business selling light bulbs?

Because it turns out that there's a lot of traffic for light bulbs and no one's really satisfied and I need very well. I'm just throwing that as an idea. Okay, I got you. Okay. And so I thought that was fascinated and he showed me some of the businesses that he'd help start. And, you know, in hindsight, I should have probably interviewed some of those other entrepreneurs. But the idea sounded fascinating.

And so I paid him to do an analysis for me. to find out what are some keywords that people are searching for. Exactly. And are not, and no one's really fulfilling the e-commerce need. And what did he come up with? He came back with projectors. Projectors. Projectors, yep.

Like slide projectors? Yes. Or video projectors? Movie projectors. Yeah, there were actually six specific keywords. It was HD projectors. It was movie projectors. I forget what the other four award.

where now. So there's a turn of search traffic looking for movie projectors, and then you analyze the sites that are currently ranked in high for that keyword, and then you look at how displacable they are, basically. And, you know, his instincts were that they were easily replaceable, that you could, with three, six months of work, you could be, you could be the highest ranking site for that keyword. So did you start a projector company? I did. I never used a projector in my life, right? Well, maybe you, maybe seen a few in a different meetings, right? But never really bought one before. I said it won up before. But the analysis, you know, seemed compelling to me. And so we started a projector business and we called itprojectorspot.com.

And after something like two, three months of work, we set up the website and we were ready to take orders. And I should add that the, we didn't actually go out and buy projectors and sell them on the website. We established dropshipping relationships with different wholesalers. And in a space of, you know, two to three months or so, we launched the business. And did you have to put in a lot of money to start this up? Yes. I put in probably something like, I would say about $20,000 or so. I don't remember all the details, but I would say most of it probably went to the website development. $20,000 is a lot of money, but were you just saving all the money that you were making from sales over the years?

I was. So I had some really good years, and I just socked that money away. And did you, like when you told your friends about it, or did you tell anybody about it? Or did you tell anybody about it? To keep it secret. I did. And they all laughed. They all laughed. They laughed saying, what?

You're selling movie projectors or HD projectors? Yeah, they asked me all the smart questions that should have asked me. What do you know about projectors? if it's this easy to start a business, why would this guy just not run the business himself? Why are you so confident that you're going to rank highly for these keywords? Yeah, so there's a lot of laughter when I share the idea for sure. All right.

So you launch this thing and do any orders come in? They do. They do. But then I saw very, very quickly that the margins were razor, razor thin. Right. So you end up selling a $500 projector. maybe you make $5, right? Why are they so thin?

Well, one, because electronics in general is just very commoditized. And there are many, many other merchants out there. And so most of the competitors were actually not making their money on the projectors. Like, it was a loss leader for them. What they were really doing was they were creating their own, they were making money from the accessories

or the light bulbs, maybe the lens. I forget what all the supplies and parts are, which explains why I had no business doing this in the first place. But that's really where the bulk of their profits came from. So how long did the business last? I would say less than six months. Ooh. Yeah.

So you lost all that $20,000 investment. I did. I did. But I wasn't, it didn't face me. I mean, it was disappointing in some ways. Yeah. Because I had, you know, because you put a lot of time and effort into getting it up and running. You sacrifice many late nights, many weekends in.

and you do all that and it doesn't really materialize. How did you know it was time to just give it up? Two things. One, I realized that I didn't, I just didn't really care about projectors, right? So what I, a few things happened, right? So whenever people would place orders, so some people would place orders without really asking any questions, but then a lot of people really came to projectorspot.com, not just looking to buy a projector, but they wanted to be educated about projectors.

And so I realized that for me to be successful in this business, one, the business model was just really, really tough. And two, I needed to become passionate and knowledgeable about projectors. And I just didn't really want to spend my life doing that. So, all right. So you kind of leave that behind. And did you have an immediate idea after that? Or did you kind of take some time? No.

I knew exactly what I wanted to do next. Wow. What was it? So I wanted to go back to e-commerce, but I thought that this time around I would pick a higher margin product. And so I turned around and created another e-commerce website. And this time around, rather than paying the guy $20,000, I built it all myself. You built a website and what was the product? So I called the website yardsteels.com.

Yard steels, like steel, like cheap deals for the yard. Exactly. And so the idea was, you know, you can get good. good deals on home and garden equipment. That was the category that I was going after. And what I wanted to do was a few of my coworkers at work were crazy about the big green egg. I'm not sure if you've heard of it before. Sure, the grill, the outdoor grill. Yeah. So ceramic grill and people are fanatic about it. People who love it, just love it and they rave about it. But what I spotted was that as fanatical as people were about the big green egg, it was actually really difficult

to get it if you didn't live in a major city. So if you lived in a city like Atlanta, it was easy for you to get. If you lived in a city like Athens, which is, you know, let's call it 70 miles from Atlanta, you had to drive to a major city to get it. And so I thought that, I thought there's an opportunity there. And I started calling the different manufacturers of these grills. I thought I could build a better, a better e-commerce business than they could. and my larger vision was I would do a better job of driving traffic and driving demand to to YARsteels.com and eventually I would go start my own, I would build my own, you know, Toap's Blue Egg, whatever you want to call it. And did you sink another 20 grand into this idea? Probably a little less, but I forget the exact amount.

All right, so you put this up and do orders start to come in? Or do it start coming in? And the margins are better this time. So instead of making, you know, like $5 for a $500 purchase, you're making a few hundred dollars on a $700 purchase or something like that. So much better margins. But you never saw a big renege. You would just get the order.

You would contact the shipper and then they would ship out of some warehouse. Exactly. Yeah, I never saw one. It's just, you know, order in and order out. And so I think what I found was I did much better. than the first business, right? So, you know, probably netted, sold more grills, one. But I think this, I found that the same problem kind of repeated itself. When people come to buy any kind of product, they're not looking just to just to do the transaction. They're also, they're looking to

be educated. And so I thought to build a real successful business around this, you had to invest time and effort into building a brand, into educating people and creating content and doing all these different things. And I just wasn't excited about that work. I didn't feel like home and garden. I just didn't feel like that was my calling. So when, I mean, so how long did that last, ultimately that business? Probably about the same three to six months, I would say. Right. Once you, I mean, you essentially had two back-to-back failures. This is a good thing because you can need those in the future. You're going to need to start and fail at a couple of businesses. did you think maybe I'll take a break from starting up a business for a while and go back and just get a safe job.

Yeah. So this entire time, I never quit my day job. So what I end up doing is I'm still working my day job at that time, traveling all over the country. But what I realized was that I started all these different businesses, not because I was passionate about solving a problem. And not because a problem necessarily existed. I was doing all these things because I was. wanted to start a business. And so I thought that I wanted to take a break. And rather than forcing a business idea, I thought that I needed to pick a problem that truly existed. And I needed to pick

something that I was, you know, really excited and committed to being a student of it. And I decided that I would basically take a break from starting businesses until I found, until I found that idea that checked all those boxes. All right. So you are doing. doing your day job, selling enterprise software. And I guess one day, from what I understand, you start to think about scheduling and calendars. Tell me what happens. Yeah, so I was a national account manager.

And so I managed a number of Fortune 500 accounts in the Southeast, so companies doing over a billion dollars in revenue, and also selling complex enterprise software to them. So what that meant was the types of, the kind of companies you're selling to are like the Coca-Cola's of the world. So they need to bring 10, 15 people to a meeting. And then a lot of times for the deals that we sold, we needed to also involve systems integrators. So these are the firms that would actually go in and deploy the software. And so they would bring another three people.

So very often you are trying to arrange meetings with 20 people across three different companies. And it can be very painful. It's so painful when you've got like five people who want to do a conference call and there's multiple emails and I can do Wednesday. Yeah, but I'm good on Wednesday. I can't do Wednesday. How about Tuesday? It drives me up the wall. It's a common problem and I'm thinking it's 2012 because at this time it's 2012. Surely this is a solved problem. I'm going to do an internet search and see what I can come up with. I can really make it easy for 20 people across three different companies to compare their availability. and I do a search and I find a number of different products on the market that are solving bits and pieces of it, but none that really, that I thought did it really, really well.

And you didn't know what that looked like. You were just looking for an option. Correct. I just knew that as a consumer, as a potential consumer, I didn't feel like any of the products on the market at the time really checked all the boxes of what I would need. What was it that you thought you needed? Yeah, so a few things I thought I needed. at the time. So one, there were a lot of products on the market that were really tailored to brick and mortar businesses that do a lot of appointments. So if you are a salon and you do 100 appointments a day,

there's a lot of great software for you. But if you are an enterprise software sales rep, that really does maybe, you know, five external meetings a day or three or four, there are no really good options for you. The other thing I noticed was that, you know, as, you know, As a salesperson, one of the things I knew very well was that just because you want to meet with somebody, it doesn't mean they want to meet with you, right? And so I thought a lot of the products that existed in the market really spent a lot of time designing for the users of the software and not so much the recipients of the invitation. And so I thought that if this would gain mass adoption, you really needed to build for both, for all participants. You needed to make it a great experience for every, for all the users of the product, whether they were your own registered users. or the people who were receiving invitations from your registered users.

Those are some of the things that I noticed. All right. So you think maybe there's something to this? Yes. And so I spent two, three months, signing up for every single product that existed on the market and really deconstructing them, tearing them apart. I must have signed up for what felt like probably, you know,

20 to 30 different products. I used the products religious. to really understand how they worked. I spent a lot of time in their community forums to really figure out what their customers were saying. I would submit support tickets to really understand their customer service. I would pose as a buyer of their software to understand how they were selling it, how they're pitching it. And what I learned was that in spite of the fact that I thought there were gaps in what they did, their customers loved what they did.

In spite of the fact that their customers wanted a lot more, they, thought what they did was incredibly valuable. And so that was interesting to me. And it told me that if at a minimum you do as much as what they're doing, there's a decent business to be had out there. And then I thought if you took it to a whole different level and you really lower the barrier of entry and really democratized it and made it simpler for, you know, the more casual schedulers, I thought there was an even bigger opportunity. And I just knew that this had it to be done. And how long?

I mean, how many months does it take before you say to yourself, okay, I've done the research. There's nothing like what I want to make. Maybe I got to do this. It takes me six months. So with the other businesses that I started, I basically had made a decision to start the business. And I looked for all the evidence to support the decision I'd already made. With this, I led with an open mind. So I was just as happy to not do it as I would have been to do it.

So I just really let the fact kind of guide me. And I was hoping at the end of my exploration, I would come back and say, this is just like the other business ideas that I've had. Someone's already done it. They're doing it really well. Go do something else. But at the end of six months, I couldn't sleep. That's all I thought about.

It's all you thought about. Yeah. When we come back in just a moment, why Tope put every penny he had into his new project, and why, when he finally built it, he was forced to give it away for free. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to how I built this from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around early 2013, and Tope Awatana has this idea, to make a lot of it. software to help people schedule meetings in the most seamless and efficient way possible.

And the first thing he needs is for someone to do the coding. And so I decide that this needs to happen fast, so it's not really something I can code myself. And so I started going to meetups to see if I can meet other technical co-founders, but that didn't prove to be successful. And so my third option became, let me see if I can hire firm to build an issue of product. You could not find a technical co-founder. You looked around. I did.

So what happens is this. A lot of people have, you know, everyone has an idea for an app they want to build. And so if you're a talented engineer, you get a lot of terrible pitches every single day. And so most engineers that are entrepreneurial, they would rather pursue their own ideas. Or if they're going to take their risk, they're rather, you know, like better on themselves and kind of go after it. So as easy as it sounds, just because you have an idea, it doesn't mean that you can really attract, get engineers to get excited about it.

This is an important point, right? Because you're right. Everybody has an app idea. But if you're not a software engineer, you can't make it. You need one to help you. But if you find a good one, there's a good chance that that engineer wants to start their own business,

on their own. And they would sort of be like, well, why should I do this with you? Exactly. And also, you know, they're also probably well paid at what they do. So, you know, kind of, you know, risk and all of that to... To start up a business with some random person. Exactly. So you could not find a technical co-founder, which is a common problem.

Yeah. So to make this thing, you decided to, like, outsource it to, like, some, you know, engineering company that does these things for hire? Exactly. So there are lots of companies out there that really help whether they're large corporations or entrepreneurs bring their products of life. And so what I ended up doing was I started talking to a few companies in the states. There was one in Atlanta.

There was one in Charlotte. There was one in San Francisco. And inevitably, the very first question they would ask me was, what's your budget? And I get that as an important question, but I just felt like all they really cared about was... How much are you going to pay us? Exactly. And so I kept looking. And so I didn't rule those people out.

But I ended up finding a company in Ukraine. And from the first interaction that we had, you know, their initial response to me was on how much budget, how much money do you have to put into this company to this idea. Their first response back was, we think this is a great opportunity to. As a matter of fact, here are three ideas that we have. And so I knew that I wanted to pay attention to them. This company is called Railsware, I think, right? That's correct.

And did you, I mean, did you make any of these companies sign like non-disclosure agreements or did you just kind of risk it that you would tell them your idea and hope that they wouldn't copy it? No, I didn't, I did not make them sign any kind of NDAs. Not because I did, you know, ultimately what I believe was, and it's still what I believe today is. I think the key to success is the execution of it, not so much just the idea. Because, you know, a number of other people before me to have. the idea, but I was thinking of executed a very different way. And I thought my own, I guess I, you know, maybe I was full of myself. I thought my own unique perspective on what needed to be

done would be good enough to protect the idea. I mean, this is an important point again, because it is true. A lot of people are paranoid about talking about their ideas, but ideas, ideas are a dime a dozen. And 20, 30, 100 other people may have had the idea that you had. thousands may have, but it's executing the idea well, which is something that you have to believe only you can do. Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting you say that because the other thing that happened is as a scrappy entrepreneur, one of the things I try to propose was, hey, why don't I just give you a cut of the equity and you can work for free? But even they weren't willing to take that risk. Yeah, because otherwise they'd never get paid. I mean, everyone is going to be

calling them up with every idea. That's correct. And so they weren't willing to do it, which I fully understand, but it worked that well, I guess. So you hired them to build a prototype of what this could look like, like an MVP, a minimally viable product? Yes. So before I hired them, I actually flew over to Kiev to meet with them. And we spent two days really brainstorming on the idea. They challenged me in a lot of different ways. I learned a lot from them. but I actually came back to the States initially not thinking that I was going to do the idea. I actually came back from the meeting thinking, man, this is much bigger than I thought. Maybe it's too much to do.

But I ended up changing my mind. Why? A few things happened. Around the same time, I found out that my mom's cancer was terminal. And I think it gave me a sense of Carpe DM a little. little bit and just really realizing that, you know, who knows how much time we all have, you know, like, here's my mom and, you know, she's dying. Would she make the same decision?

If she was fixed with the same decision, knowing her lifespan, what decision would she make? That really changed my thinking around go for it. You're thinking, who knows what's going to happen to me tomorrow? Better do this. Correct. Now it's the time to do it. Nothing's guaranteed. You can try to wait for the perfect moment, the perfect idea, the perfect development sequence, or you can start with this place and start with what you can do and expand from there. All right, so you decide to do this, and how much was it going to cost you to get this prototype built? A little over $200,000 is what we thought it

what it cost. Wow. Did you have that money? I had most of it, but it required doing a lot of things that tell you not to do. So I had to empty every single dollar my 401k. And pay the, pay the penalty, presumably. Yep. I had to use every single dollar my savings account. I had to borrow a little bit in top of that. I ended up borrowing a little bit from lending club. At a high interest rate. I had a very high interest rate. So cobbled together my 401K and my savings and then some debt and maxed out all my credit cards. And put it all in on this idea that at the time didn't even have a name. I mean, that's a really big risk.

I mean, yeah, you know, you were at 31, 32, I guess. So I still could recover if it was a disaster. But, I mean, wow, that's a lot of. money, you were basically cleaned out, I'm assuming. Yes. Aren't you nervous? Not at all. It sounds crazy to say that now, and it could have been really, really, really bad,

and it would have set me back many, many years if it didn't work out. But not at all. Here's why. I've learned a lot from my previous failures. This felt like, you know, as crazy as it sounds, I felt like I had a colon to do this, right? For a number of reasons. I felt like I spent all my life in sales, and I think I really understood. I felt like I knew a lot about me.

meetings and meeting etiquette and what works, what doesn't work. I felt like I actually, unlike the e-commerce businesses that I tried to start, I actually knew a lot about software businesses. And I felt like I, because I spent so much time researching the space, I felt like I knew exactly what needed to be built to build a great business. So it sounds crazy, but I wasn't, I wasn't scared. So this is 2013. You put all your money into this product. to be built. This company, Railsware, most of that money is going to them. What did you tell them?

You said, okay, I want this to be like a calendar that somebody can just say, hey, here's a link to my calendar. You pick a time when you want to meet me. And that calendar would be integrated with whatever they used, whether it was Google or Microsoft or whatever. Yeah, so a few things. So before I ever met Railsware, I'd actually come up with my own requirements document. Okay.

So which, again, something I didn't do with the previous businesses. So I had, I created my own detailed list of requirements and detailed flows that need to happen that needed to be built. And also my own sequence of how the work needed to be done. So what were your requirements? Oh, man. You need to be able to integrate your calendar, be able to specify your availability in all these different ways. You need to be able to guard your availability. And so, you know, I thought the user experience and design just needed to be front and center.

Like, it just needed to be appealing functionally and also aesthetically. We had to get really fancy with how we detected time zones to make it really, really accurate without the user having to intervene at all. So there are a lot of technical, small little technical details that really made a difference in the user experience that we had to figure out. All right. So you get this product. It takes about six or seven months. Meantime, how is your mom doing? This is 2013.

Yeah. So she died about two months into the development. So she died in June 2013. Did your mom know much about what you were working on? Not really. So I kind of downplayed it to her. So I told her that I was, you know, she knew about the previous businesses. And she supported my, my different business ideas.

But she wanted me to, she wanted me to prioritize my day job. But she thought I was doing really good with my job in that she didn't lose, she didn't want me to lose focus of that. So in some ways, I downplayed what I'd done to her, but I'd really committed a few hundred thousand dollars to it. You never told her. I did not. Because she wanted you to have security and health insurance and all that stuff, right? Correct.

All the things that she felt like, you know, she wanted for her son and she wishes that, you know, that my dad always provided, right? Yeah. So after her death, I mean, how were you able to kind of just, because you were in the midst of building this thing? Like this was intense. I mean, soon after you were in Ukraine again. How did you stay focused? Yeah, so I poured myself into the business, into the product.

And so, you know, it was a very, very, very difficult thing for me, very, very difficult thing for me. but Cal only became a huge distraction from that. And I just, I worked like a dog, just so I didn't have to think about that. So by the fall, we're on September of 2013, the first version of this product is available. But you would spend all your money on developing it. So how were you going to, I don't know, pay for the servers and pay for, I mean, get the word out about it? I mean, because you had no money left, right? Yeah, so I got help along the way through Railsware, actually.

So a few things happened. As Railsware was building the product, they got connected to another potential client, a software company in San Francisco that's gone on and done really well to a multi-100 million dollar business now. And that company was looking to engage them to do some work for them. And so Railsware was like, hey, let's show you this product that we're building, right? So they show them Calently. And at the time, Calonly is not quite, it's in a, it's not quite ready to be in a public beta. But what it ends up happening is they love the product.

And so somebody from their, from their customer success team, signs up for the product and starts using it to schedule onboarding calls with their customers, which those customers happen to be. K-312 schools. So a customer success person from this company in San Francisco starts scheduling onboarding calls with K-3-12 schools. Yeah. So the cat's out of the back at that point. Because when you send somebody your calendar link and they see it, they're like, hey, what's this?

I want this too. Exactly. They say, I schedule a lot of meetings. That was easy. I would love to use this to simplify my medians. And so the K-3-12 schools start adopting it, and then they turn around and start using it for parent-teacher conferences. Right. So the use case goes from, we're doing using it to do onboarding calls to these schools start doing parent-teacher conferences with it.

And then, you know, a few weeks in, a school comes to us and says, this is the best thing that's ever happened to us. We've been struggling with parent-teacher conferences. We struggle with, you know, how, you know, the administrative burden of setting them up. the participation rates. We want to roll this out to all of our teachers. Where's the school? In Kentucky. And so they come to me and they say they want to sign up 80 teachers.

And I just 80 teachers, which at the time was a lot of people. And just to interrupt what was your business model? How would you make money off of this at that point? Yeah. So I'm glad you raised that because I neglected to mention that. So because I ran out of money, no, my idea, the business. business model going into it was to have a 14-day trial so you could use the product for free, no credit card, no feature restrictions for free for 14 days. And at the end of those 14 days,

you would have to upgrade with a credit card. And then pay like a subscription fee. Exactly. But because I ran out of money, we couldn't build the billing features. And so by default, the product became 100% free. You couldn't build the billing features? Correct. Because I ran out of money. I had just enough. money to build the scheduling capabilities, but not enough money to get around to enforce the billing. So no way to capture revenue from potential users. You couldn't just like set up, I guess you can't really set up quickbooks, right? Well, you can set up quick books, but it's within an online product, you have to find a way

to restrict the features if they're not paying. Yeah. You know, there's some technical complexity there and some work that needs to be done to, to kind of turn the features off and on based on their trial status, their payment, status, collecting the payments. Initially, I mean, just to give you an idea, initially, that was maybe two, three months of work for two engineers to work on that. Wow. Okay. So you could not do this. So you were forced to give this away. Now, but then how are you going to pay for it? I mean, giving it away, how are you going to make money?

I mean, was the plan to just get a bunch of users and then kind of figure it out? Hopefully you would get investors? Yeah. So that has to become the idea. So I was faced with this delay. So keep in mind, I'm still working my, I'm still working my full-time job this whole time. Your day job. Yeah. So I hadn't left that. So this is, you know, this is my side hustle. I was still, you know, I was meeting my obligation to the company.

I actually had a really good year that year. And so I felt like so long as I was, you know, it was not interfering with my job, it didn't really, I didn't feel like I needed to disclose it. And so I had this dilemma in which the business is growing, you know, in the sense that people will sign up for it. And every time, every day the signups are growing because of the virality of the product and because people are getting good value from using the product. But I had no, I didn't have the money to turn it into a revenue-generating business. And just to clarify, it really started with this one software company in San Francisco and then went to teachers and then from there it just organically grew.

Exactly. So the first, you know, 300 to 500 sign-ups really came heavily from K through. 12. But after that initial wave of K through 12, it spread to all kinds of different industries. It spread to people in all kinds of different roles. It was salespeople, it was recruiters. It was freelancers. It was consultants. I just began to spread like a wildfire. When did you know or when did you feel comfortable leaving your job, your day job? I wouldn't say, so I don't know that I actually felt comfortable, but I knew that a decision had to be made because I, you know, Seeing the growth of of Calumly, I realized that, one, this thing was growing in spite of the fact that I was just doing it part time.

And two, I owned 100% of this thing that was growing. And so to me, the choice was very obvious. And during this time, did you tell anybody about your idea or did you keep it a secret? Like, did you tell your friends about it? I told my close friends. I definitely told my brothers and my siblings. Did people think it was a good idea? No, they didn't think so.

They thought it was a solved problem. I remember when I was leaving and I told my boss I was leaving, he's like, you're leaving for that? He felt like he'd filled me that I, you know, like he felt like I was, like I got, get desperate and I, you know, and I'm pursuing, you know, scheduling. That's a solved problem. Like, nobody needs that.

But yeah, it was not, it was definitely not obvious. I didn't quite know how I was going to fund it. But I, the decision to me was clear. And so I begin to put together a pitch deck and start going to different events trying to meet investors. And at that point, you still had not, you were fully, you'd funded this thing by yourself. Funded it myself and ran out of money. And then I convinced Railsware to work for, not work for free, but to work with understanding that when I raised money, I would pay them back. So I was able to get them to work on credit.

There's a quote of yours I read, and I want to read it to you. I'm curious to ask you more about it, because you described the process of trying to raise money. You said, everyone said no. Meanwhile, I watched other people who fit a different profile get money thrown at them for shitty ideas. Those VCs were ignorant and short-sighted. The only thing I could attribute it to was that I was black. Can you walk me through your experience trying to raise money? Yeah, so I think, first of all, I think it is difficult for pre-revenue businesses in general to raise money, especially in the southeast, right?

Because I think that the farther you are away from the coast, the more the more investors value revenue. Whereas when you're on the coast, I think they care more about growth. So I think that process for anybody's is challenging. But I'm sure race plays some aspect in it. But it's not really, there's probably more to it than that. But did you, but I mean, you didn't really, it sounds like you didn't really kind of pitch to investors at this point yet. No, I definitely pitched to investors. You did?

Yeah. And I got, um. All in, all in Atlanta, the Atlanta area? All in the southeast. So a few people in Atlanta, a few people in the southeast. I had, you know, a guy from a pretty big firm. Not only did he, you know, so, I mean, I'll tell you, I had a very, what I thought was a very, condescending kind of experience.

So at the time, I was actually in Kiev, right? So I'd flown to Kiev to work with Railsware, and I stayed up till 2 a.m. to meet with this person, and then he stands me up, right? So just a lot of, like, a lot of experiences like that, there were just, you know, it's one thing to not invest, but it's another thing to kind of treat people like that. Yeah.

How much is that is just the arrogance of, you know, somebody who thinks are an important VC versus race? I know, who knows, but I mean, I do know that many other entrepreneurs who didn't have as much, who hadn't made as much progress, had more of his than I did. So how did you eventually wind up connecting with people who did want to invest? Yeah, so I started going to different events. I started connecting with people in the startup community. And then I ended up signing up for.

for a membership at a place in Atlanta called the Atlanta Tech Village, which is a, it's a co-working space specifically for tech startups. And it's while I'm connecting with different investors that the owner of the Atlanta Tech Village catches wind of Callantly. David Cummins is his name. And he thinks it's really interesting because he,

at the time, he was actually using a competitive product. And so he knew firsthand that this was a, a big problem and he was impressed with what we'd done. And so we get connected. Huh. So what happens? So we have a one or two meetings and it follows up with a term sheet and says, I love what you're doing. I think that this is, this can be big. I'd love to invest. I read that it was like $350,000 or something like that. Were you nervous about taking that investment? Because you owned 100% of this thing. But at the same time you needed the money. Yeah. So I was ambivalent about raising money, to be honest with you, because I felt like I started the business in the most difficult way possible, you know, really,

you know, putting everything I had, risking everything I had to start the business. And so in some ways, it felt like a step backwards to have to, you know, seed, you know, some of the ownership. But once I met David, that changed in the sense that like I felt like I was going to have a, when I was going to be, you know, working with a successful entrepreneur himself and not just a money man, right? I felt like I could learn a lot from, from him. And so the ambivalence I had went away once I met him. So it's, it's a spring of 2014. And you get this, this investment in your business of about $350,000. And how much, runway does that give you at that time? I mean, was that because I mean, I'm assuming the business

even in April was like was just you, right? That's right. So it was just me. I was the only employee and then, you know, Railsware. And so that ended up giving me, I want to say something like nine months of runway. And do you remember how many, I don't know, how many people had you signed up by, you know, a year into it by September of 2014? Maybe about 15,000 at the time. Right. So it's pretty good. And, I'm assuming that in that first full year, 2014, you really had to figure out a plan to make this profitable, right? To monetize this. Yes.

And so that became, you know, priority number one was I raised the $350,000. Because honestly, I didn't enjoy the funder and raising experience. Yeah. And I wanted to make sure that I was, I never really had to do that again. And so I prioritized generating revenue by August 24. 2014, we turned on billing and introduced a premium plan. And so we start generating revenue in August of 2014. And how did the premium plan work?

Yeah, so that actually created it, it created some fiction at the time. And looking back on it, we would have done it differently. But part of friction with customers? Yeah, existing users. And so some portion of the existing user base was disappointed that they had now had to pay for a product that was 100% free. Right. But really what the premium plan did was basically we still had a free product, but we just limited what you could do on the free plan.

And so you had to upgrade to the premium plan to get, let's call it 60% of the features you used to maybe get for free before. Right. And what were you charging for it? $10 monthly if you paid monthly or $96 if you paid annually. And was your idea already at that point that hopefully one day big companies like Microsoft or, you know, Microsoft, but like, you know, big companies would use your service? It absolutely was the plan to eventually begin to acquire larger customers, but some of that was already happening, right? So we were getting, you know, pockets of, you know, a department

in those big, big businesses using our product. And do you, I mean, do you, at this point, do you just kind of, do you continue to seek out outside investors, or do you decide to just see if you can make a go at it, you know, through cash flow and revenue. A little bit of both. So we start to generate revenue. And it definitely extends the runway. And I forget exactly how much additional time it gave us. But we ended up raising an additional $200,000 in early 2015.

As Cushin is an insurance policy of sorts. We ended up not needing it. Wow. But we did. So did you ever go get VC money at all? No, not after that. So what is a total amount of money you've raised? On the balance sheet, just the $550,000.

That's all the outside money that's gone into the business. That is all the outside money that's gone into Calendly. That's correct. I believe that you will do, what, close to $30 million in revenue this year? 60. I mean, were you ever worried that, I mean, given that you didn't raise that much money, and now you've got, how many users do you have now? How many monthly users?

About 9 million people used the product on a monthly basis. Were you ever worried that some big company like Microsoft or Google or somebody else would just come in with a lot more money and just crush you? I used to. What I found is that when you spend a lot of time with your customers, I think you find out that there are a lot of things that they want to do that need to be done that maybe those companies don't have the appetite for doing. You now are based in New York, right? I live in both Atlanta and New York. And okay, but the company is based in Atlanta. That's correct.

And how many employees do you have? A little shy of 200. Wow. What is, so, I mean, you can basically operate in COVID times, really like everything's normal. Yeah. I've been impressed by high resilience the team has been, and we've been able to stay productive and actually grow even faster as a remote. company.

Has you, have you seen growth in people signing up after COVID or has it slowed down? We've seen growth. So what we've seen with COVID is that it's accelerating digital transformation for a lot of businesses. Some of the industries that we're seeing that acceleration in or telemedicine, for example, higher education, financial services, retail. We've always done well in those industries, but we've seen an uptick in those industries really adopt in online scheduling. I mean, as you kind of think about, you know, with a product you offer and how, you know, technology changes so quickly.

What, I mean, are you thinking like four or five steps ahead of what Callend Lee might be in five years time to make sure that it doesn't become obsolete? I do. And I spend a lot of my time thinking about it. that. You know, our overall vision is to take the work out of meetings, right? So we really think about our mission as not just removing the back and forth of scheduling, but how can we really automate the entire meeting experience, right? So, you know, too often, not only a meeting is difficult to schedule, people sometimes forget to show up. When they show up, they're not prepared. there's no clear memorialization of the key decisions that are made and, you know, action items that

are open. Those are the things that we're looking to fix. And there's a lot there. And that will keep us very, very busy for five years. Would you ever sell a company to, you know, a sales force or a huge player like that? Absolutely not. I'm very excited about what we're doing. And I feel like we're just getting started.

There's a lot to do. And so that's not remotely on my radar. When you think about your journey and what you've accomplished, you know, we've had some incredible lows in your life, some failures, quite a few, and this just unbelievable success. How much of this do you attribute to your hard work and talent and how much do you think it has to do with just being lucky being at the right place, the right time.

Oh, that's a great question. So I think everybody's lucky, right? I think the very fact that I didn't get hit by a bus today, that's luck, right? And same thing for you, the fact that that didn't happen to you, that's luck. And, you know, I look at the family I was born into. I think your family really determines your ceiling in life and your floor as well, like how high both, how high or low both of those things are. And I had no say in the family that I was born into, so I feel incredibly lucky there.

I picked the right industry, you know, one that's grown like crazy. So all those things are definitely luck. But I think, so I think we're all lucky, but I think what amplifies that luck and what makes one successful is hard work, it's skill, it's resilience, it's an appetite for risk taken. So that's my view. I think it's a combination of both. But I think when you add those fourth things, it just takes like the whole different level. That's Tope Awatana. By the way, Tope wasn't kidding when he said Calendly has grown during the pandemic. In fact, the company reported in August that since going into quarantine, small business owners

have set 13 million more meetings than they did in the same time period before the lockdowns. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcast. You can also write to us at H-I-B-T at NPR.org. And if you want to send a tweet, it's at How I Built This or at Guy Raz. My Instagram is at guy.org. This episode was produced by Rachel Fockner with music composed by Rumpteen Arableu. Thanks also to Candice Lim, Dereth Gales, J.C. Howard, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers.

I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.