How I Built This with Guy Raz - Etsy: Rob Kalin

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Rob Kalin founded Etsy for people like him: makers and hobbyists. In 2005, he was kicking around New York trying to find buyers for his hand-made furniture, when he noticed that other craftspeople had the same need. So he and a few friends built a website where makers could sell a wide range of goods. Rob named it after an Italian phrase he heard in a Fellini film, and within three years, Etsy passed $10 million in sales. But as a young founder, Rob struggled to manage the rapidly-growing company; and in 2011, after being fired without warning, he returned to a quieter life as a maker and small-businessman. Meanwhile, Etsy has become one of the most popular online marketplaces in the world, with $2.5 billion in revenue.This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music by Ramtin Arablouei.Edited by Neva Grant, with research from Sam Paulson.Our engineers were Gilly Moon and Maggie Luther.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram, and email us at [e-mail] episode is brought to you in part by Canva, the easy-to-use online design platform for presentations, social posts, videos, websites, and more. Start designing today at Canva – the home for every brand.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. I had a biweekly lunch with Fred, you know, one of the investors. Fred Wilson. Yeah, Fred Wilson. I thought I was just going to lunch to chat about Etsy and went to their office and met him.

and he told me that I was fired, but he didn't tell me why. He just said, we have to do this. And I remember saying, like, you don't have to do this. Like, you're choosing to do this. And the whole process felt like it was something straight out of a Kafka novel. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today,

Today, how Rob Kalin followed his passion for making things by creating Etsy, one of the biggest and best-known online marketplaces in the world. Let me tell you a little bit about what Rob Kalin, the founder of Etsy, is up to these days. He left the company more than a decade ago, and today he lives and works in a small town in upstate New York, in the Catskills. Rob rebuilt his entire house from the ground up. He even built the furniture for it. It's actually beautiful stuff, super spare and minimalist wooden tables and chairs. He started another business not too long ago making handcrafted high fidelity speakers. Don't bother looking for them at Best Buy.

They are custom-made and very expensive. Someone is actually selling a pair of them online for close to $50,000. Soon, Rob plans to launch yet another business, a learning tool for kids that blends technology with old. old school hands-on toys. Now, the point of all this is to explain, if it's not already clear, is that Rob is very much a maker. He is exactly the kind of person he had in mind when he created Etsy. Back in 2005, when the website went live, Rob and his co-founders wanted to create a marketplace for makers who could sell their stuff and be part of a community. Today, Etsy is one of the biggest online marketplaces in the world, close to 100 million active buyers and about $2.5 billion in annual

revenue. But a lot of that growth, it actually happened after Rob left the company. Like many of the stories we've told here on the show, founders, even the most creative and passionate and visionary founders, aren't always the best leaders. Or they might be great leaders at first, but not necessarily the right people to grow and scale a company. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But this is exactly the challenge Rob faced. Back in 2011, he didn't exactly leave Etsy to sail off into the sunset. Rob was fired, suddenly and without warning. And for Rob, it was a huge personal blow. He was 31, and Etsy was his life's work. For a few years, he brooded over what happened, but eventually Rob recovered and settled into a life as a maker. It didn't hurt that

Etsy's growth and Rob's stake in the company also made him a wealthy man. So this is a story of triumph and loss, wild success and failure, and everything in between. But we'll get to all of that. What you need to know for now is that Rob Kalin grew up in the 80s and 90s just outside Boston. His mom was a teacher and his dad was an architect. Rob describes himself as the kind of kid who had trouble sitting still. And as he got older, school got a lot harder, to the point where he just decided to leave. When I hit my junior year of high school, I just stopped going to school.

I did not tell my parents I stopped going to school. I would leave in the morning and pretend like I was walking to school and I would go into Boston. I was really into photography. I was taking pictures, built. the darkroom in the basement. Eventually, I got a job at a camera store near Boston, and I would just walk by school and go to work, and felt like that was a much better use of my time. So you would just, you just wouldn't, I mean, didn't that catch up with you? I mean, didn't

eventually, like, your grades start to suffer and your parents start to sort of ask you what's going on? Oh, yeah. The ruse was up when the first report card got mailed home. And what's interesting was I didn't have bad grades. I had incompletes, which I think was the letter. And my brothers and sisters report cards were on the fridge with their high marks. And I remember opening my own report card, highlighting all of the ends, and then putting it on the fridge, and then just kind of going to my room and forgetting about it. And when my dad got back from work that day, my door got forcibly opened. And it was, you know, it was an interesting moment because...

There's this really strong equation between do well in school and then be successful after school. And it definitely wasn't an equation that I was subscribing to even at that point. And so I fixed my door and that was my introduction to carpentry. And then from that point on, had a pretty strong sense of, okay, I need to figure out what I want to do. And, you know, I think in some ways that's one of the most valuable skills I learned going through. that public schooling system was just like how to carve out my own path or how to walk away from something and then turn towards who I am and what I want to be doing. So you did manage to graduate from high school, I think. And fair to say, kind of barely. Yeah, so I stopped going to high school

for my junior year and then at the end of that year, most of the advice being given to me was just go take your GED and then we'll figure out where you can go after that. And I was 100% in my life. you know, rebellious phase. So I graduated with a 1.4 GPA. I mean, I was walking a very fine line to try and figure out, you know, exactly how much effort I had to put in in order to graduate, all the while still focusing on, you know, the photography. And I remember during the latter half of my junior year, my mom just dropped me off on the main street in town and said, don't come home until you have a job. And so at age 16, I started working as a cashier at Marshalls and again like very valuable experience not an easy place to work and making less than

I don't know eight dollars an hour at that point so it would have been 1996 and working through the holiday season with you know it's probably the only person under the age of 50 working there I guess you spent a little bit of time at art school in Boston after high school but you you eventually made your way down to New York. Yeah, so when you're in art school, the idea of making it as an artist in Boston just doesn't even count. You have to get to New York City. And so I went to New York City

and I remember interviewing the Strand Bookstore and getting that job for, again, under $8 an hour and just living pretty close to the bone for my first year in New York City and started doing construction work at night. So I'm trying to just get a little, bit more money saved up so I could go back to school. And what kind of construction work were you doing in New York? I started out with just simple two by four framing of things and then ended up

taking a full-time job at a construction company that was renovating a beautiful brownstone on the Upper East side. And I remember waking up at five o'clock in the morning and getting on a super pack subway and just doing a very physically demanding job during the day. They were in the kind of demolition phase of the renovation, and you're the lowest rung on the ladder. I was essentially just carrying barrels full of plaster laugh down four flights of stairs for most of the day, but for sure being able to watch the other people on the job. And it's not even just the work that they're doing and the skills that are required. It's who they are and how they show up and what their personality is

and this kind of community and camaraderie that gets built on a job site. full of people doing pretty difficult work. And that really stuck with me, even outside of that environment. And I guess when you were in New York, you also kind of went back to school. I mean, that kind of you did. I think you took some classes at the new school and like Greek and Latin. And then you transferred to NYU, the Gallatin School there. And you studied classics there as well, which seems like kind of a departure from what you were doing, like with photography.

and the arts. So after you graduated, what kinds of things were you thinking about doing? Yeah, so there was always this momentum pointing me towards the arts. And so, you know, I ended up graduating college mid-year, and I had a full year's worth of student loans. And a friend called me and told me that his roommate moved out. He was living in Paris.

And so I went and lived in Paris for a season. and then coming back to New York City after that, as luck would have it, I ended up dropping a rent check off one day, and my landlord was talking on the phone and reading a piece of paper, and I jokingly handed him my rent check, knowing that he'd never free hand

and with this little pantomime where he couldn't accept it unless he handed me what he was holding, and so I took what he was holding, and I read it, and it was a proposal to make a website for this restaurant that he was. called Acme Bar and Grill on Great Jones Street. And he said, covering up the mouthpiece of the receiver, can you beat that price? And I, again, jokingly, just kind of said, I'll do it for half. And he goes, okay, great. And he kind of shoes me out of his office. And I leave his office holding this piece

of paper that was someone else's proposal to make a website for this restaurant and was like, all right, I guess I'm doing this. You know, I remember the proposal was for $1,600. And I was like, I guess I'm doing this for $800. And did you know how to make a website? Absolutely no idea. I didn't even know how when you type something into a web browser, it went and found the files. I thought maybe the files had to be on your computer somewhere. And, you know, this whole concept of, you know, what I now have a pretty good understanding of,

wasn't present for me at all. But the challenge of, you know, how do you populate this website with content? So I had to go talk to people. I had to go take pictures. I remember learning Dreamweaver and put all of these things together. that I didn't really know and made what I'm sure is by all means a completely mediocre website. But the process was fascinating to me. And, you know, I remember being in art school and I was learning anatomy and old master painting at that point.

And I would go down to the computer lab once a day to check my email. And I would see all these people hard at work staring at computers. And I would think like that is definitely not for me. But lo and behold, you know, the piece that we think, is not what we're going to be is what becomes the cornerstone of what we're going to build next. So basically there was an opportunity to build a website, and that's kind of, just by default, you kind of start to figure out how to do this. So that kind of became a little business.

So I made that first website, and because this is, I don't know, 2003, I got known as, oh, this guy can make a website. And the wife of one of my NYU professors, Jean Rela, was running a website called Get Crafty, and she needed that website rebuilt. What was Get Crafty? Get Crafty was a community site, really like a forum with people sharing what they were working on

and talking about life. And, you know, one of those beautiful early examples on the web of these kind of like watering holes where people just kind of gathered and talked and there wasn't all of, you know, there were no algorithms manipulating people's attention. There weren't even really any ads being served up on this. And so she was just like, hey, I need this rebuilt.

I hear you make websites. Can you help me? And this was not a commercial website. It was just like a community board for people to like, I guess, post photos of what they ever worked, like the crafts that they were working on. Exactly. And there was a dynamic element to it that I didn't know because I was just doing the front end work

and didn't know how to do any back-end work. And at Gallatin, there was someone known for writing code and I reached out to him. So Chris and I built at Crafty, I imagine, in a couple months. And when you take Chris, you're talking about Chris McGuire, the guy you met at NYU, who would go on to found. Etsy with you. Yeah, so

the idea was let's start a little web dev shop and we'll go look for more clients and we'll do bigger work. And we were able to parlay building Get Crafty into a couple other projects. You know, a lot of times we didn't have any say on

the design side. And after several months of that, I remember telling Chris, I just want to build something that's our own that we can kind of steer the direction of. And I set up a woodshop in my bedroom in Brooklyn and got to making furniture. And when I was looking to actually try and sell the furniture,

all of the storefronts where you could sell it are taking a large commission and aren't really looking for mediocre furniture made in a bedroom in Brooklyn. Yeah, by the way, what kind of furniture were you making? At that point, mainly desks, and I was specifically trying to make desks with a computer built into the desk.

And I was also just studying the history of furniture and getting a sense of different styles, different cultures and trying to think like what's like a Brooklyn vernacular for a furniture aesthetic in the early 2000s. Were your desks, I mean, were they good? Were you good at woodworking? Compared to, so I've been woodworking more or less continuously for the past 20 years or so. So, I mean, compared to what I can make now versus what I was making then, no, I would not say

they were very good. Right. You know, again, they were a very good attempt at expressing something and exploring something. And so running up against this challenge of, well, how do I sell it and not really having access to any storefronts? And I was like, okay, you know, I'll try and sell this online. And, you know, there really isn't much infrastructure for doing this at this point in the world. You know, this is 2004. And the only option for selling it online was eBay at that point.

really had no interest in doing that. So built a website to sell my own furniture. Right. After doing that, one of my friends who also made furniture said, hey, I need a website. Can you make me one so that I can sell my own furniture? And, you know, it wasn't a big leap. And this is like 2005.

Yeah, this is, yeah, this is probably early 2005. And, you know, I'd made Getcrap. And I'd seen the power of all of these people sharing a space together and communicating about what they were making. And then, you know, my friend is like, can you make me a website? And so I said, instead of making you your own standalone website, why don't I just kind of create a place where we can both sell what we're making? And I remember going to Gene, who was running Get Crafty and saying, you know, could we add a tab on here for a marketplace so people could actually sell some of this stuff? and, you know, she's very thoughtful and decided against it because, you know, that energy of commerce

really wasn't a part of the community at that point. And so I asked for her blessing to kind of just go off and try and build this thing on my own. And lo and behold, that was the seed of what eventually became Etsy. And so when you, and by the way, the name that you picked for this website, Etsy, where do that come from? Yeah, the naming process, there's something quite ineffable about that, where it has to feel right.

And I was looking for something that could just have this emotional connotation of no baggage, plus here's something new, and ended up, you know, mishearing something in a Fellini film, and looking up the dot-com for that. And by some very strange stroke of provident, and luck, the word letter domain for ETSY.com was available. And you'd heard this.

You thought that you'd heard somebody say Etsy in a filini film? Yeah, I think in Italian it means and if or something like that, Etsy, Etsy. And so I was specifically plumbing the depths of my you know, Latin and Greek language learning to try and come up

with a word that wouldn't mean one specific thing. I mean, I remember my Greek professor, companies would contact him all the time, usually pharmaceutical companies, to help him create names for different kinds of, you know, drugs that they were creating. Right. And I also, I think even at that early stage, had a sense that I wanted it to be a global brand. And so if it was just two English words stuck together, I felt like it would be more difficult. So I wanted to create a kind of playful, nonsensical word that had no branding baggage attached to it.

So you said you were thinking about a global brand. So, I mean, it sounds like from the get-go you had ambitions about this. It wasn't just let me just build this thing and sell my woodworking stuff. It was more like, let's see what we can do. Let's see how big we can make this. Yeah. So there was this moment where I was sitting in a chair by my window in my apartment on South Elliott Place in Brooklyn, just starting to sketch out the causal chain of what Etsy could be.

if we started from these principles with these values in this community. And it just became so clear to me, even at that moment, how big it could be and where it needed to go. And there was absolutely the sense of inevitability pretty much from that moment on. Let me come back in just a moment, how Rob and his partners launch Etsy move from an apartment into an office, which they soon discover is not an easy place to pull an all-nighter. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, small business leaders. On how I built this, we hear all about how founders have built their companies from the ground up. Today's sponsor, JustWorks makes it easier for you to start, run, and grow a business.

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You guys are the best. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2005 and Rob, his friend Chris McGuire, and another guy from college, Hym Schopich, decide to devote their full attention to building the website that will become Etsy. That was the kind of seed getting planted of like, okay, let's build our own things. thing, I now had to go out and do some fundraising. And obviously, like, I've never done fundraising before. And I was actually finishing up building a bar in the apartment of what became

Ansi's first investor, Spencer Ayn, along with his brother Judson. And when I was done building his bar, we were just kind of chatting. And I was like, hey, you know, here's this other project I'm thinking of doing. Do you have any interest in it? And he kind of looked at the bar and he looked back at me. And he's like, if you can build that and he really liked the bar, then I'm sure you can do a good job building this. And he's like, you know, come back tomorrow and I'll have a check for you. And, you know, I still remember that experience. He lived near NYU's Stern, like their business school. And went back the next day, picked up a check at his first money in for $50,000 and walked by stern and was like, you know, I did it.

Went to the bank. That seemed like a kingly sum of money to me. I was like, this is enough money to run Etsy for, you know, as long as we need to until it gets profitable. Yeah. Tell me, and how much did you need to raise or did you raise initially? So at this point, I didn't even know that startups were a thing and didn't have a sense of like, oh, okay, there's a difference between an angel investor and instance. institutional investors. So I went to my grandfather, and I told him what my intentions were. He was the kind of businessman and the family, and he worked at IBM back in the 50s and 60s and just said, hey, like, here's what I'm thinking of doing. So there was this sense of like, okay, he'll know what to do.

And I remember telling him, all right, you know, here's my idea for the business and here's the capital that I've raised. What do I do next? And he's like, well, you need to, spend this amount of time doing this amount of market research and you need to do this and you need to do that and I need to meet with Spencer. So Spencer and now with his brother put in a bit more money and a third investor joined in. Sean Meehanan, who's a restaurateur who had a restaurant tour who had a restaurant across the street. But at that time, help me understand what you needed the money for. I mean, presumably at the time it was just more expensive to build a website and to to get servers.

Is that why you needed to raise it? Today, if you were going to start a business, you and some friends would just go start building a website and you wouldn't need much money to do it. But in 2005, I guess you needed the money to actually buy the services that you needed to buy to make the site. Yeah, so in 2005, there's no infrastructure.

There's no cloud computing. And apart from hosted servers, which are very expensive, and we're doing our best to build the website at that point. The software is by no means as efficient as it could be, and we're compensating for that by bulking up on the hardware side. And so all of the fundraising in those early days, because we were not making much money, in terms of what we were paying ourselves, was going towards hardware. And I remember just kind of like countless hours spent ordering from New Egg,

and then the hardware is showing up in my apartment and, you know, these big pizza box, one URAC servers on the floor and assembling them and then driving over to SACACACUS New Jersey and installing them in the data center. I remember Christmas Eve crimping RJ45 plugs onto patch cables, setting all of this stuff up. So, yeah, those were the good old days. We were just doing the best to be good with what we had. All right. So the three of you, Chris, you and Hym, are basically starting to build out this site.

And before you even made it, you know, launched it and went live, how did, what was your business model going to be? Like when you went to Spencer, the guy whose bar you built and who was your investor, and he was like, okay, how are you going to make money? What did you, how did you explain it to him even before you went live? The business model, thankfully, was very straightforward, even from those early days. Obviously, we could point to a website that already existed like eBay and say, all right, there's going to be a per. item listing fee, and then there'll be a sales fee associated, you know, when something sells. So that piece of it was more straightforward, and it actually felt really nice because the other websites of the day, you know, watching kind of Facebook's rise, and then Twitter were based on

ad revenue, and, you know, we were kind of able to take this pseudo moral high ground and say, like, we're not going to be reliant upon third-party advertisers that will have to kind of cater to. were just going to like the business model felt like it was baked into the the website from the beginning and when people asked you well how is this different from ebay your answer was well this is not ebay at all we're not selling everything we're only selling handmade items things that people make yeah so the sense of the overcoming inertia in the early stages of a marketplace is incredibly difficult. It's almost impossible, which is why, you know, there were so many eBay clones that never went anywhere. And, you know, you need to be able to tell a compelling story and you need

to build up a community and the community needs to organically overcome that, you know, inertia in the early stages of the marketplace and start get the flywheel going. And one interesting thing is you can't fake that, right? We knew. that we had to be that community. And from working with Gene on Get Crafty and really seeing what it looked like to participate in an online community in those days, you know, had a good sense of that.

All right. I guess from what I read, it took you guys just two and a half months to build this website. And you launched it in June of 2005 at c.com. And then what happened? Like you hit the go-butt. You know, it's out there the world. But this is like still early days on the Internet.

And what happened? Did anything happen? Did people start to find it immediately or not really? Yeah, what happened was we hit the go button and then went for dinner. And I think when we'd come back for dinner, you know, we're checking the web traffic. And a couple people had noticed it. We posted on Get Crafty and there was another, you know, kind of handmade community called Craftster, and we posted about it in those forums, and people

started noticing it. There's this beautiful D.H. Lawrence quote that has always resonated with me, slow, like growth. And Etsy very much embodied that. And I think that's actually a really healthy thing, because it ends up becoming something that has a lot of momentum behind it, and which means, you know, it's got a lot of staying power. And you see the inverse of this with companies like Groupon, which I think was, you know, fastest ever to go from zero to a billion dollars in revenue. So with Etsy, it was this kind of long, slow, organic growth. That said, you know, in the first year of business,

we did a million dollars in sales. And that seemed like quite a lot. And this was all being driven by the more organic traffic of the early web, you know, being written up on blog. like Boing Boing Boing. So basically people started to discover it from blogs and from other, you know, being pointed to it from other places. And what were the kinds of things that people started to, I mean, what kind of, yeah,

what were people selling on it initially? So the sellers were predominantly women and the categories were actually laid out by Leah from Craftster. And, you know, they span in some. ways all of the obvious things that you would expect, you know, everything from houseware and accessories to clothing to stuffed animals. There was a B-to-B side from the beginning, where there was a supplies category, and we relaxed or basically let go of our requirement that something had to be handmade if it was considered a supply. And there was also a vintage category. And a lot of

people in the community, they would make things, but they would also buy from other people who make things. Yeah, but again, I mean, other sites at the time were doing that kind of thing, too. So how did you distinguish yourself from like eBay or other places that sold the same types of things? Yeah, so when Chris and I were building Etsy, I knew that we needed to have something in our visual identity that really proclaimed that like we were different, we weren't eBay. And there was a digital artist who I had an enormous amount of admiration for her named Jared Tarbell. And he was doing these kind of generative artworks where pixels would imitate life. And I remember while we were building Etsy, just emailing him and

saying like, hey, we're building this. I'd love for you to create some visualization tools for the items that get listed in the marketplace as new ways to discover what's for sale. And there'll be all of these ways that we can shop online that you just could never do offline, like arranging everything by color or that you could zoom through a three-dimensional helix showing you all of the items that were listed in a particular category through time. The pitch to Jared was this will be a kind of laboratory where we'll give you a really interesting set of data and you can kind of work your magic on it. And while we were building Etsy, Jared was a little bit on the fence, you know, before any items were listed. And as soon as some items were listed, he was like, all right, I'm in.

And Jared would go on to become like your fourth founder. So it would be you and Chris, Heim, and Jared. And I think he really contributed to the early look and feel of the site, right? Yeah. So even just the first things that he was creating when I was going to the investors and when people would talk about Etsy, they would say, oh, that's the website where you can shop by color. And Jared's work played a big role in that.

So understanding, again, it all comes back to that storytelling piece of being able to wrap it up in a big flag that you can wave and say like, look, this isn't what you think it is. This isn't the ordinary stuff. This is something special. And, you know, there was a bit of being more philosophical about it and saying, why would we just try to reprise offline shopping experiences online? This is a new medium. So you shouldn't just, you know, take a newspaper, put it online and make it a digital. newspaper. We're not just trying to take an offline marketplace and make it, you know, and put it online. We should be creating these genuinely new ways to shop. I guess like pretty soon after you, you launched it, you started to think about, I mean, obviously this is going to take more money and if it was going to become something bigger. And I guess you got in touch with the founders of Flickr, Catarina Fake and Stuart Butterfield, who were married at the time or a couple. And you wrote to them because I guess you liked Flickr and you sort of asked for their advice.

Tell me the story. Yeah. So again, early days of the web and they were absolute royalty. I mean, Flickr was one of the first websites to really like even the design language really take a stand and say like, here's what we're about. And so I remember just writing to them pretty simple, you know, two sentence email, saying, hey, you know, I really admire what you made. Here's something that we built over here and any advice. And I forget who replied first, but they were basically like, yeah, let's meet up. And I was like, well, I'm not in California. And there really wasn't a New York tech scene back

then anyways. And so pretty early on in the company, we were like, well, let's go out to California and see if maybe we want to relocate there. So you went out there to meet Kettering. And Stuart, and Stuart, obviously, of course, when I found Slack, it was on this show many years ago. You went out there to meet them, and what happened? Yeah, so I still remember the first time meeting them. They definitely kind of took us under their wing,

mainly on like product design and fundraising were the two big pieces. You know, this was probably two years into building Etsy, maybe not quite that far in. And Catarina was the one who kind of, you know, she could at that point just kind of pick up the phone, make one call and get a meeting with different investors. Those meetings were kind of all over the place. That was definitely my introduction to the world of venture capital. And a lot of those meetings, I just remember leaving them being like, I don't understand how that person would want to invest in this. Or I wouldn't want their money investing in this. So she did a little bit of filtering up front and then kind of worked with me to figure out who he wanted to raise money from in the end.

And you were, I mean, I guess the attraction at that point was that you were, you had, people were set up accounts and they had storefronts and the more accounts they set up, the more essentially users you had. And so, and you mentioned that in year one, they sold like a million dollars worth of things on Etsy, right? So the artist sold about a million dollars worth of products. Is that right?

Is that your memory? Yeah, so year one, and again, this is the kind of inertial momentum, I'm getting built up in the very beginning of a marketplace, the classic chicken and egg problem. Here, one, did a million dollars in sales, which looking back on it now is far more than I remembered. And I'm pretty proud of that.

I think that's one of the hardest pieces in a marketplace is to just, like, get the flyable going. And a million dollars in sales was great, but you guys only got three, four percent of that. So your revenue is still fairly small, but obviously you were showing a trajectory of growth, of significant growth. Yeah, so at that stage, any investor is more concerned about, you know, total addressable market and how big is this opportunity, not, you know, there's that other piece of how much we'd already captured. And when you're talking with these institutional investors, you know, this was in some ways the best piece of business advice ever got. from Sean. It's a little bit crass in his Brooklyn way, but he's like, you're the drug dealer,

they're the drug addict, where he's like, you have what they want, and maybe you'll let them invest. And obviously, right, that's very haughty and got a lot of swagger to it. But it was definitely helpful to feel like there was some kind of safety net there in the beginning. So, all right, so you, I guess, on a trip or maybe this first trip to San Francisco, but going back to that trip, when you met with Katerina and Stewart, they introduced you to some potential investors. Because the idea was you wanted to raise, I guess, from what I read, you wanted to raise about a quarter of a million dollars at that point. Yeah, so that was the beginning of this process that has been a kind of long and start. journey and we ended up raising yeah very modest I think this would have been called our series

B just to show how much times have changed we probably raised like 250 grand on a 1.5 million dollar valuation something in there and from that point on most of the fundraising was primarily driven by needing to buy hardware and then just headcount you know we weren't spending I had money on advertising or anything like that. So when you, I mean, when you guys were really, you know, now in the thick of it, you know, you launched in the middle of 2005 and you're growing organically. How, I mean, tell me a little bit about what do you remember about just the work environment? First of all, did you guys initially you were doing this out of your apartment, but at what point did you actually get like an office to work to work out of? other. Yeah, so for the first two years, we didn't have an office. And I remember just traveling

around the world, bumming around Europe. And when we came back from traveling in, you know, late 2006, the community was growing enough that we needed to hire more people to support it. And we're like, well, let's get a small office. And so we started looking and ended up finding, a place near the Brooklyn Bridge and we were just going to get part of this floor. And we ended up renting the whole floor. And I was literally for a period of time living there. And it was, you know, an office building. So they didn't heat it outside of nine to five. And that first winter, I remember I'm, you know, sleeping on a little blowup camping pad and I'm freezing. And I'm working blissfully, you know, 18 hours a day on, on this project.

and then, you know, the rest of the people would come in in the morning. And I may have missed this, so let me ask about this. You were traveling in the first, a lot in the first year of Etsy's launch. Why? Where were you going? What were you doing? So part of it was to just kind of go visit all of these different craft fairs, and I would walk around the craft fair handing out these little postcards that said what Etsy was. and 100% of the people had never heard of it and didn't know how to pronounce it.

And so part of it was just kind of traveling to start connecting with the community, but just this sense of like, oh, our community is online. We're spanning different time zones and we can kind of check in and work for wherever we want. I guess that was a glorious glimpse of remote work

way back in like 2006. How are you, I mean, you know, when you would go to, Craft fairs outside the U.S., how are you accommodating those sellers? I mean, were you able to, because today it's easier, obviously, to, you know, just the infrastructure there or Shopify or whatever you want to use. But how did you have, like, somebody in, I don't know, Germany selling pottery, sell to somebody in the U.S. and then also accept dollars?

And how did you guys make that happen? I mean, it must have been really hard. So as much as we disdained eBay, we were definitely standing on their shoulders in a couple different ways. And one of them was our exclusive method of payment was PayPal. And so if PayPal worked in that location, then we were able to just ride those rails. Another piece of it, which I think could have ended up making things a lot more complicated but didn't, was that Pierre Mediard decided not to patent all of the basic mechanisms of e-commerce at that point. And so, you know, we were able to learn a lot from how eBay did things and make ample use of one of their services.

And so Etsy was definitely kind of built on the shoulders of eBay in that way. And PayPal was owned by eBay by that point. Yeah, exactly. And I'm also curious in those early days in that sort of first year and a half, it was really presumably even once you opened Etsy Labs, it was still a pretty small team. How are you dealing with like when things went wrong, right? Because I have to assume that, you know, there were probably, you know, more than a few examples of people getting things they didn't like or, you know, not being happy with the products or not feeling like their money's worth. And they would complain to you guys about it.

How did you guys handle that? Yeah. So lots of different ways things can go wrong, especially when you're building a marketplace like this. I was just rereading a lot of our early blog posts, and most of the ways things were going wrong was the website itself wasn't functioning. And because the scale and the growth of the marketplace was a gentle enough slope,

we could learn the hardest lessons when the stakes were lower. And I really like that kind of crawl, walk, run approach to building a business in general. On the seller's side, again, we were able to leverage PayPal, PayPal had different kinds of dispute resolution procedures. And so I'm not proud that we did this, but we would basically just kind of kick people to PayPal's customer support

and say, look, you know, if you want a refund, you have to take it up with them. And that insulated us from a certain amount of that. But that said, if we became a place where it was just, oh, this is scammers and shoddy goods, then it would have really hurt the brand. And again, I think the slow-like growth approach to this helped us there because we didn't really have to deal with high levels of fraud until, you know, significantly later. Yeah, this is when the Internet was still innocent.

I know, I miss those days. Or more, yeah. Yeah. Because it probably was really earnest community of makers, right? And so you probably didn't have to worry too much about people just being jerks because, that would come later. And so, and in terms of like curating, I mean, did you guys have any standards for what was allowed? Like, you know, did you have rules about what you could and could not sell?

Obviously, it had to be initially, I think it had to be handmade. But, I mean, could people sell, you know, for example, like handmade glass tubes to smoke pot out of, you know. Did you have any rules? So in the beginning it was more, here's our list of categories, and if it doesn't fit into one of these categories, it shouldn't be on the site. And obviously you can get a bit creative with that. My general view on that stuff was, again, just like celebrate the diversity of it. One of the funny jokes that we had was we defined the vintage category as something more than 20 years old. And when people were challenging what that was, and we were trying to clarify the terms of service, there were plenty of, VHS players that were 20 years old. And so it's like, under our rules, you could list a VHS player on Etsy, and it just felt so wrong. Like, someone listed a Ferrari on Etsy once, and I was just like, and not even in the vintage category. It's like, well, what's interesting is, you know, it's like the marketplace itself develops this kind of immune system.

And so when they list that, hundreds of people flag it, it's just this beautiful expression of humanity. and all of our foibles and imperfections. And I think ultimately, we tend to love things for their imperfections. I know that pretty early in the early days, some of your co-founders left. But how did you guys, I mean, how did just the sort of interpersonal relationships,

you know, how did you guys get along? Is it stressful, right, building something together, especially when you start to get investors behind you. how was the relationship? Yeah, in the beginning, there was just this sense of incredible sense of camaraderie and we're all in this together. It doesn't mean to say there wasn't plenty of arguing.

There were just so many things we were doing that it was the first time everyone at the company had done it and we would be making these first-timer mistakes. And Jared was recently sharing a story with me where when we were in Noe Valley and walking to get lunch, one of the other guys was just, berating me about something. And Jared thought he was witnessing the dissolution of the company. And after lunch, I was like, no, that's just normal. When we come back in just a moment, Rob confronts a new normal that he did not see coming. He gets fired. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to how I built this.

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And so I started interviewing someone with more experience for a COO role and ended up hiring Maria Thomas from NPR. That was a really interesting cross-crued. current in this office full of, you know, younger folks and who are just kind of very earnestly going all in and are very much part of the community that they're serving. And then Maria entered and just brought with her a very different culture. You know, I still remember the first all-hands meeting we had where I introduced her in her opening speech. She kind of said the most important thing for us to do is execute, execute, execute. And I could just kind of see the

air go out of the room. Like, that's such a strange word to focus on. And I tried to kind of make it into a joke. And she had her way of doing it. And I wasn't about to assume that like, oh, this is wrong for Etsy. And so watching her work and giving her the space she needed to run operations, I definitely learned a lot. And it reached a point where I was like, look, you know, the way that you're doing this is so different from the way I'm doing it. I think you should just do it. So you should be the CEO. And looking back on it, it's quite easy to see, like, you know,

that culture piece was too important to be a mismatch at that phase of Etsy's growth. And so she ended up not being the right fit in that role. But I initially transitioned to being chief creative officer and then just a board member. Right. Yeah, I should mention I haven't seen Maria Thomas at least a decade, but I knew her a little bit when both of us worked at National Public Radio. She had been the head of digital media there. And so she came on initially a CEO and then essentially became CEO.

But you said that it wasn't the right fit. Why? I mean, you wanted a professional to come in and, you know, make this company stronger. So, you know, first of all, what was it about her? I mean, clearly you had felt that she was the right fit for an operational. role. So you must have liked her. You must have thought that, you know, that you must have gotten along. Yeah, we got along. I definitely enjoyed the early discussions. The culture piece becomes evident in a couple key ways. And remember that Etsy's commerce is very much kind of

standing on the shoulders of the community side of Etsy. And so that community, especially the community of sellers. She just wasn't a part of that. And at that particular point, there were just too many consequences that fell out of that where she didn't see Etsy for what it was and what it needed to be. I mean, from what I understand, what I've read about the company, I mean, during that period, it was a potentially tough period because this was a recession, of the financial crisis, but remarkably, Etsy actually really benefited from people not going to traditional retailers and looking at Etsy for maybe ways to save money. So actually, it turned out to be a pretty good time from a financial perspective and a growth

perspective for Etsy. Yeah, I always did my best to insulate the majority of the company from any kind of financial concerns, even in the early days working with engineers. they would tell me how much money we needed for hardware, and I would go out and raise the money. So there really wasn't much of any financial pressure on the business, building it through the recession. And it was approaching profitability at this point.

Again, you know, we're a marketplace. This business model is kind of baked into how we run. And this interesting shift happened, probably starting with Maria, where this sense that, like, who's your primary customer? And for me, Etsy's primary customer was always the sellers because they were the ones that we were generating, you know, collecting our revenue from. And the buyers were our sellers primary customer. And so

our role as a company was to support our sellers as best we could. And you look at a marketplace like I would say Etsy now or eBay. And the primary customer is clearly the buyer where the whole experience is optimized on the buying side to the point where, you know, I pay a listing fee and here's my item, but the website is going to place other items on that page that are similar because it's primary, you know, it's catering to the buyer now. It's not really there to support the seller. And that really started under Maria that where she was like, we need to focus on the end buyer, the person going to the website. Yeah, I think that shift started happening then. And is that wrong? I don't think so. No, I mean, I, I, it sounds like there was a, there, the tension came from,

I mean, you were the founder, and then you brought in a professional C.O. Who becomes a CEO, but you're still there. And in some ways, I think you would even admit this. It almost never works out, because when a CEO is brought in and the founder still has power, it creates a lot of conflict. I mean, usually it works out when the founder leaves and a new CEO is brought in. But when they're both there, because the people in the company don't know who to go to. I'm sure half the people, maybe lots of people in the company, were going to you and they were like, hey, I'm not really happy with this decision that our new CEO is taking. And you were like, yeah, well, let me see what I can do.

I mean, is that fair? Was that happening? I'd like to think that wasn't happening, even just at the most practical level. I didn't stay in the CCO role for very long. I completely removed myself from the day-to-day operations of the company. And I didn't want to do anything that was going to underpin the authority of this person that I just suggested to run the company. I care deeply about the company more than anything else. So she eventually steps down and you are brought back in to become CEO in 2010.

And did you feel like, you know, I mean, oftentimes, you know, that could have been a great opportunity for you. two years to watch a professional run the company and to learn things and maybe gain more experience and come back in with a sort of a renewed vigor. And so when you came back in in 2010, you know, back to running the company, did you feel like, okay, I got this? Yeah, so that was a really interesting time for me because I'd spent a year being immersed on the community side of Etsy again and just making things. And, When I was asked to return, I was like, if I go back and do this, it needs to be in a much more mindful manner, not this kind of ad hoc. Let's just do my best and everything's going 100 miles an

hour. So I remember really thinking about that. And then when I rejoined, Etsy was in a new office. You know, they totally moved offices. The office was concrete floor and fluorescent lights. And I was just like, oh, man, that didn't feel right. So we put a wood floor in and put, you know, warmer bulbs in the fluorescent lights. It sounds so trivial saying it now. But, like, the office didn't reflect the ethos of the company. And then she'd hired a lot of senior people where I think taste is one of the most ineffable things about the human condition. Like, what gives someone some kind of taste and not another?

And so, you know, her, whatever was guided. her hires for people to run things like marketing and customer support or anywhere else, just also didn't fit. So rejoining was a bit of kind of getting it back on the rails. And that part felt good. So I wanted something to kind of show when I was returning that we're going to make some changes. So I remember it's like throwing a coffee mug up into the air in this look on everyone's face when it's just in the air before it drops, like that look of expectation and excitement. And, you know, then it smashed. But I was like, that feeling is what we need to have here as we're, as we're building Etsy. You were basically 30 years old when you were brought back.

And, you know, but, but you had started, I mean, you, you know, you started the company five years earlier. So there was a lot of, even in the trenches with a lot of people. And I imagine it was probably people are excited. But there were also, I mean, I'm sure you remember this well. While you were CEO, there was an article that came out. I think in Inc. Magazine was critical. And it was a, you had some quotes in there that were a little bit, shall I say, unfortunate. You said, you know, I speak to people in the business world and technology world, but I admire them.

You were quoted saying, you know, I think trying to maximize. my shareholder value is ridiculous, even if you did believe those things and felt that way, sometimes you kind of, you know, want to not say that. Oh, yeah, and you need to learn the lesson to not say those things. So at that point, I didn't, I was used to, well, first, right, taken out of context and contextualizing those things with what comes before or after them, helps make more sense of them. That's one piece.

Another, for sure, still learning. I didn't even know that if a reporter was recording you, they don't have to run any of the quotes by you before publishing them. And yeah, that was very humbling. Like lots of lessons to be learned from that experience. I hope this is not like piling on. But this is important because we're talking about, you know, now more than 10 years ago. And what you've learned from it and obviously how you've grown, we'll get to, But, you know, one of the things in the article, and again, I'm sure there are people who could say, you know, things about anybody, anybody listening, me, anybody. But somebody in the article said, working at Etsy was like being in an abusive relationship in that same article. Do you, do you, do you, you were kind of described as being erratic and, you know, you have, you know, 20, 30 ideas a day and, and, you know, change course. And you were in a great.

manager. Do you think that, I'm sure some of it, maybe a lot of it, was unfair, but was there some of it that was accurate? Oh, I'm sure. And no worry about piling stuff on. I am amazingly self-critical. I can't walk by a stick without picking it up and finding some way to hit myself with it. So these were things where, like, what's your, let's see, I think everyone's frame of reference for these things is different. And I was trying to get a better sense of, you know, how to manage and all of these things. I don't ever remember once yelling. I just don't raise my voice at all. And then, you know, you read these biographies of Jeff Bezos or Steve Jobs, and they're screaming at people that they're morons in front of the whole company and all this stuff.

And I'm just like, is that what being a, like, you know, in an abusive relationship looks like, or is it something a lot quieter and a lot softer? And, you know, one of the things I did that I remember bothered a lot of people was we were, you know, we had these conference rooms with lots of glass on them so you can see in. And there were these meetings where it very clearly, to me, at least, you know, half the people in the meeting were just like, this should have been over half an hour ago. and like it's just dragging on. And so I was working late one night.

I don't know, probably 8 or 9 p.m. Some people in customer support are still there. And I was like, let's just remove the chairs from the meeting room because if it's not worth standing up for, you shouldn't be having a meeting. You know, to me, this is just something that's a bit cheeky. And, you know, lo and behold, like the next day, the engineers are doing some kind of like long triage of something that happened

and there's no chairs in the room. And, you know, eventually they just end up bringing the chairs back in. And so I'm sure that, and I doubt I even understand all of the different ways that I, you know, to frame it positively, needed to improve. I did really feel like I was on the path to learning that. And, you know, again, I'd stepped aside once. I was not holding on to that position with tight hands. Like I was coming back to it and saying, like, let me do a better job.

here. So I got in a CEO coach and eventually hired another COO, Adam Freed. Again, in the back of my mind, there was a piece of me that's just like the culture needs to change. And that's the direction that it needs to go in. So, all right. So you're, you know, we're working on your leadership and this article comes out, which obviously wasn't a great article in ink. And I guess a couple months later, you are fired by Etsy's board. And this came as a real shock to you. You did not see it coming at all. Tell me about that. I mean, is that the case? Did you not have any inkling or indication that that was on the horizon? Yeah, absolutely no idea that it was even within the realm of possibility that would happen. And again, this is one of those situations where

looking back, it's much easier to see things. So Adam had joined as C-O-O and pretty early on in that relationship, you know, we started trying to figure out what that dynamic was and not just amongst ourselves, you know, going to a kind of executive coach, working stuff out. And I think we both felt that there was a bit of that culture. or mismatch, and I definitely didn't support him the way that I should have. You know, I remember this meeting where we had to reclassify all of the customer support workers from being like full-time salaried to having to keep track of their hours. And it's ostensibly for labor laws to protect them, but it also created this whole like second class of worker inside the company.

And it sucked, like having to do that. But Adam was kind of leading that process. And I remember this meeting where it was being communicated and I was standing in the audience and he was standing up front with the head of HR. And they were trying to pitch it to the customer support team. They were dressing it up as this like, this is an improvement and, you know, just not Etsy's culture. And I was standing in the audience and I had the same reaction to it that they did. and I obviously hadn't been involved enough

in preparing what the presentation should have been, all of that stuff. And I remember talking about that with Adam afterwards and I was like, look, the way to do that is like slide one says, this sucks and slide two says, this really sucks. We don't want to do it. And you just like talk to him. Like, don't wrap it up like that.

And I'm not even saying my way is like, quote, the right way to do it. It's just like knowing the people in the room. So that was one piece was like my relationship with Adam wasn't great. The investors were checking in with him. And I had a biweekly lunch with Fred, you know, one of the investors. Fred Wilson. Yeah, Fred Wilson. I thought I was just going to lunch to chat about Etsy and went to their office and met him. And he told me that I was fired, but he didn't tell me why. And he just said, we have to do this. And I remember saying, like,

you don't have to do this. Like, you're choosing. to do this. And the whole process felt like it was something straight out of a Kafka novel. Yeah. And I'd already stepped aside once. So I mean, I remember when Fred was like, you need to go. And the strangest part of that experience to me was, you know, he's like, do you want to, do you want to resign? And I'm like, what would that look like? And he said, well, you'd stand in front of the company and, you know, tell everyone that you've decided to leave. And I'm just like, who would believe that? But Rob, I mean, at the time, didn't anyone sit you down and clearly explain to you why you were being fired? I mean, this was 12 years ago now, right?

And I don't know. Maybe you've had a chance to get more insight into it by now. But looking back, did you have any idea? Were you pretty much in the dark? So, you know, I've tried to reverse engineer why I was fired so suddenly and hasn't been easy. But I did reach out to one of the investors in advance of this interview to try and learn more about what actually happened. And he did shine a little bit of light on the situation. And, you know, the feedback that he gave me, sometimes I was too involved, sometimes I wasn't involved enough, and sometimes I was a bit unkind.

And, you know, fair enough, I would have greatly appreciated that kind of feedback at the time. Yeah. So you were out. And I imagine, and I obviously came as a shock to you, and I imagine it was also just emotionally very challenging. Because it's like a death. Yeah, I was wrecked for quite a while. I mean, I'd obviously like built up a lot of my sense of self-worth around like, here's what I do. My identity wrapped up in it, my friends, where I lived. I mean, I remember. this moment, you know, before this happened, where I was living in Red Hook, Brooklyn, and I would ride my bike everywhere, and I'm just riding to work, and it's foggy and Manhattan's to my left, and I'm just looking at Manhattan and biking to work, and, you know, my fiancé was at home, and I was

like, wow, I figured it out, you know, I made it. And this, like, feeling of accomplishment and instability and then it's just like nope you know everything we think is is solid can just kind of crumble in that sense and yeah it makes it hard but i've also come to peace with it the anger is gone it's just sadness that lingers you left presumably still with a significant amount of equity in etsy right so you had that um i have to imagine yeah and which you know isn't obviously doesn't entirely mitigate the pain, but certainly helps a little bit. And did you feel like just from your own, I don't know, for your own mental health, did you feel like it has to be a cut, a clean break and you just, you know, it was like a

breakup with a partner where you just stopped any kind of communication or following it or just you just tried to put it out of your life in any way possible? Yeah, so those two different things are connected that you said. So, you know, I had some equity. I didn't have a huge amount, you know, when the company went public. I didn't even make the threshold of shareholders with over 5% that you have to disclose. So, you know, I had some equity in the company. I couldn't do anything with the equity. You know, I couldn't sell shares. And then once I went public, my shares were locked up for year anyways while the share price was falling. And I was trying to communicate with people. I was. I was trying to communicate with people. the company to kind of arrange some kind of secondary sale. So that was interesting. Like, you know, now I have to talk with Fred about trying to sell some of my shares. And, you know, Fred was very professional about all of that. Yeah, I think that has to do with my own personal coping mechanisms too. Like compartmentalization was there a bit. I geographical compartmentalization really helped. So just getting out of Brooklyn was really helpful.

when you moved up to upstate New York in the Catskills you got it really involved in the community and I mean I know for example you helped build a preschool like you I guess probably was to solve a problem you had which was your children and you wanted a good preschool

yeah so what was interesting was that whole piece of my identity that was built around I work at a tech company that has no cachet in Catskill New York and that was great and worked with a group of moms to start a preschool and then eventually start the Catskill Montessori School, which has over 100 families at it.

I've also been doing some work in the local public school. And yeah, reconnecting with this sense of place and sense of purpose outside of I live in a big city and I'm working at a tech startup. So I guess you, in our... conversations before this interview you mentioned that you're working on something at the intersection of technology and humanity you mentioned it's still a secret um is it still a secret is can you talk about this because it sounds like this is your really your biggest endeavor you know in a big way since you left etzy yeah this is what i hope one day to come back on this podcast and talk about and show all of the

lessons that i've learned um yeah the new endeavor of I'm working with a pair of absolutely brilliant engineers, one of them a close friend from METI. And it's at the intersection of early childhood development and technology. The general thinking is there's this famous story where this journalist asked the Wright brothers, why did you succeed in building the world's first flying machine when thousands of people have been trying,

why you, there's nothing special about you guys? and they think for a minute and they say, well, no, there is something quite special about us. As children, we had access to our father's workshop and we encountered these tools. And if we didn't have that as experience as children, we wouldn't have gone on to do what we did, which is what led us here. And, you know, there's this long history of making beautiful hardware for children in order to kind of calibrate their senses and learn about the world around them. You have frivoled gifts in Montessori's sensorial materials, but no one's updated that hardware. So I'm trying to, I think there's a whole continent of computing

in between the blocks that children play with and the way technology currently lands in their lap, which is just phones and tablets and reduces them to poking at pictures under glass. So we're exploring this continent of computing and don't have anything specific to share yet. We're starting to work with, the school up the road now. But hopefully you'll be hearing about that shortly.

Going back to the Wright Brothers thing, there was no reason why those guys were the ones to make it except for what they said, right? They started out playing around their dad's toolshed. Similar, there's no reason why Etsy was going to make it. I mean, there probably were 10,000 reasons why it should have failed or could have failed because it just, it was too early and the business model wouldn't have worked.

But today it's a powerhouse. I mean, it is a, you know, it is a publicly traded company with a, you know, its market cap is at $8 billion as we speak today. And, you know, you were raising it at $1.5 million. So you're certainly your investors did well very well. You're certainly your early investors extremely well. I mean, it's a powerhouse. I don't know. What do you make of it when you look at it today?

Yeah, there's this kind of error of inevitability to it. With the 10,000 ways it could have gone wrong, it almost seems like it's the inversion of that where we did 10,000 things that could have pushed it off the rails and it didn't go off the rails, you know, including, you know, management stuff and my own shenanigans. So how did it persist? And I think ultimately the,

the heroes of all of that are the sellers and that, you know, in many ways, that's who we should all tip our hats to. So here's this publicly traded company and the people who are running it, I'm guessing, are not part of that community of sellers that they're serving. And I would also venture to guess that, you know, Etsy's primary customer right now isn't the sellers. It's the buyers. And so it's going to keep optimizing along those lines. So it's just different. it's obviously put a huge financial cushion under me. You know, I come from peasant Ukrainian stock and now have more wealth

than the prior 50 generations of my family or whatever. And one thing that I really enjoy is the fact that, you know, there's a secret, that this word that I made up is on the lips of so many people. Just the stark contrast of going to those craft fairs in 2006 and handing out these flyers and nobody knowing about it

to now being at a concert and knowing that like anyone I walked up to say like, hey, do you know about this thing? They'll have heard it. When you think about the journey you've taken and what it's enabled you to do despite the very traumatic exit,

how much of your success and where you are you or do you attribute to your work and your intelligence and how much you think has to do with the luck that you, that, you know, broke your way? Yeah, such a great question. How much of it is under my control, which is my own hard work,

and how much of it is out of my control, which is luck. And the older I get, the more it feels like there's at least one other force in play, the kind of carmic force or Providence or whatever So without all of these different forms of luck, of being born in the United States, of being born in a, you know, middle class family of this really strange path that I took through school of literally handing my rent check to my landlord when he happened to be holding a piece of paper to make a proposal for a website, like how can you look at that and not think it's both luck. and some form of providence. So I think that's the prerequisite,

and then all the hard work is what follows. And you get to lean into both. That's Rob Kalen, co-founder of Etsy. By the way, when you guys were at Etsy, what was the weirdest thing that you saw somebody put on there? And you were like, I don't know if you should allow this thing to go on sale at the site. There was one class of items that took off that I didn't even know was something that existed,

and that is penis cozies, and they are hand-croached cozies for male genitalia. And generally, the community was totally supportive of that. And I thought it was a rather lovely expression of all of the different values and cross currents at play in the Etsy marketplace. I don't even want to imagine what somebody needs that for. Wow. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And as always, it's free.

This episode was produced by Carrie Thompson with music composed by, Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Sam Paulson. Our production staff also includes J.C. Howard, Casey Herman, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, and Malia Agudelo. Our engineers are Gilly Moon and Patrick Murray. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.