How I Built This with Guy Raz - Famous Dave's: Dave Anderson (2020)

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

Growing up in 1960's Chicago, Dave Anderson didn't eat much deep dish. Instead, his dad took the family to the South Side for barbecue, and those memories—and aromas—stayed with him.For years, Dave tinkered with his own recipes for sauces and sides while working as a salesman and business advisor to Native American tribes. Finally in 1994, he opened his first barbecue shack in the last place you might expect to find one: the little town of Hayward, Wisconsin.The chain grew quickly—too quickly—and Dave developed a love-hate relationship with the brand he'd created, but never lost his passion for smoked ribs and brisket. Today, Famous Dave's has over 100 restaurants across the U.S., making it one of the largest barbecue chains in the country.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with a place with a new space. all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hello, everyone. So as a lot of you know, we produce 88 brand new episodes of how I built this a year. And it's a lot of work. So this week, we are taking a quick break to reset.

And we're playing this one from our archives. It's an amazing episode. It's a story of Dave Anderson, who turned his childhood love of barbecue into a national chain called Famous Dave's. It's a barbecue chain that started in a tiny town in rural Wisconsin. And the story of Famous Dave's is really a story about everything good and everything bad that can happen when you go into the food business. We first ran it about two years ago. It's an awesome story, and I hope you enjoy it. Did you give it the name Famous Dave's?

as kind of a joke, because you weren't get famous, right? Well, on the road, out of town, there's like Dave's guns, Dave's antiques, Dave's boats. So I was going to name my place Dave's famous barbecue shack. I get my business cards, and it said, famous Dave's barbecue. I am mad. I can't believe the printer messed up my business cards. And my wife said, Dave, calm down. Why don't you just leave it?

So famous Dave's, the rest is history. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how a passion for smoked ribs led Dave Anderson to open a barbecue shack in the middle of nowhere and how it grew into Famous Dave's, one of the biggest barbecue chains in the country. So most of the biggest restaurant chains started in small places. McDonald's was born in San Bernardino, California. Domino's? In Ipsilante, Michigan. Sonic? Shawnee, Oklahoma. Arby's, Boardman, Ohio. There are a number of reasons why this is the case. There's usually less competition. The rent is lower. And if what you're offering is new or different, people will stand in line for it.

as they did at the original Boardwalk Fries in Ocean City, Maryland, which is now a franchise company with more than 100 locations nationwide. They stood in line at Chicken Salad Chick in Auburn, Alabama, which now has 140 stores. Same with five guys in Arlington, Virginia, an empire of more than 1,500 locations today. And as you will hear, in the mid-1990s, people came from far and wide for some of the best pitiful.

barbecue they ever had. And it wasn't in Texas Hill Country or eastern North Carolina, but rather in Hayward, Wisconsin, a town of 2,300 people in the northern reaches of the United States, where in January, it can get down to minus 17 degrees. This is where Dave Anderson, after years of trying out different business ideas, decided to open Famous Dave's Barbecue in 1994. Today, Famous Dave's has about 125 locations nationwide, making it one of the largest barbecue chains in the country. But the story of Dave's is also a story of how a simple passion for serving smoked ribs, chicken, and brisket can grow too big and too fast, and how a founder can almost lose complete control of a good idea. Dave Anderson,

grew up in a working-class family in Chicago in the 1950s and 60s. Both his parents were Native Americans who grew up on reservations in different parts of the country. My dad's a full-blood Chalktah Indian from Ida Bell, Oklahoma. And if you were to look at a map of Oklahoma, you would see that Ida Bell is in the southeast corner of Oklahoma, which is way down south. And then my mom is from the Lakouturee Reservation, which is way up north. She's a member of the Lakota Ray Lake Superior Band of Ojibway. So she grew up in Wisconsin. He grew up in Oklahoma.

And how did they meet? Both of my parents, I think, is the unfortunate part of my story. We're taken by the Bureau of Indian Affairs away from their families and stuck in Indian boarding schools, basically making orphans out of them. Now, fortunately for me, though, my parents met at Haskell Institute for Indian. in Lawrence, Kansas. So both, just to clarify, so both your parents grew up on Indian reservations, they met at a boarding school that I guess was where Indian kids from across the country were brought to, I don't know. Basically to mainstream them because my dad, when he was brought into a boarding school, didn't speak English.

He was basically a Choctaw-speaking Indian. And when he got put into these boarding schools, he can remember. remember actually being beat and having his mouth washed out with soap until he would forget his language and only speak English. It didn't happen in Abraham Lincoln's Day or George Washington's day, but this generation, my parents, I think that's a story that sometimes people in America never hear. No, they don't. What did your dad do for a living when you were a kid? My dad was electrician and my mom was a secretary. She worked as a secretary. So I was like a lot of kids that lived in a working class neighborhood. And we didn't have a lot, but we always had food on the table. I think growing up, though, I always knew that my family was different. Because when all the other kids were going out for pizza and hot dogs, especially in Chicago being a great pizza town and Chicago hot dogs, my dad. My dad, dad would load us up into the family car and we were headed down to the south side of Chicago for

rib tips. And growing up, I knew every black-owned barbecue joint in Chicago. And I can remember as early as 1959 eating rib tips at Lem's barbecue of 59th at State Street. Yeah, I mean, Chicago became obviously hugely important as a barbecue capital because of the great migration, so many African-Americans who migrated out of the Jim Crow South moved to Chicago and brought with them their culinary traditions. You know, they also brought blues. What a great combination. And so Chicago throughout the years has always been known as a great blues town and also great barbecue. Dave, as a kid, did your mom and dad instill strong Indian values in you?

Did you have a strong Indian identity as a kid? You know, growing up in a Native American family, we were cognizant that we were America's first people. My dad was very proud of his Choctaw Nation. My mom was proud to be from the Lakuta Ray Reservation. And for us, that got carried over in that we ate Indian foods. My dad was very insistent that he had his foods from the South. My mom, when she was growing up, she did a lot of fishing and she harvested wild rice. And so throughout the years, my dad would always, what I almost call it, make pilgrimages down to the south so he could get his Benaha, which is a corn type of bread, you know, almost like a tamale wrapped up in cornhusks. And then my mom would always take us fishing up north and we would harvest wild rice.

but more importantly, to raise money for the family, my parents would have an Indian frybread stand. And my dad would grill it and smoke up venison. My mom would make Indian fry bread and also wild rice soup. But we would sell venison frybread sandwiches along with bowls of wild rice soup. I think attending Indian powwows with my mom where we would have this Indian frybread stand really taught me a lot about cooking. cooking, cooking outdoors, but also the appreciation for foods that are harvested naturally, being able to harvest wild rice, fishing. And all of those are experiences that I think throughout the years I've always carried over to me.

How were you as a student? How was school difficult for you, or were you a pretty good student? I was not a good student. I thought I was the dumbest kid in class. You know, I could remember my dad sitting me at the kitchen table. I would have a blank piece of paper in front of me. And I would cry because I didn't know what to do. And it wasn't until years later that I found out that I had attention deficit disorder,

which explains a lot. You know, it explains why I was bouncing around all the time. And, you know, back then, I don't think there was a name for attention deficit disorder other than you were a problematic kid. you know, if it wasn't for an art teacher telling me, he said, Dave, he said, I know you struggle in the rest of your classes. He said, but when I watch you, you may not be the best artist, but you see things that other people don't see. You know, I would have never heard that from an English teacher. I never would have heard that from a math teacher. And that really stuck with me

all these years. I'm able to see things other people don't see. I'm able to visualize. I'm able to see where things can go. You, so clearly high school was not, school was not, did not come easy for you and was challenging for you. I mean, I guess when you were 18, you kind of had your first experience with entrepreneurship, something about selling fuel additives or some, what was that? Tell me about that. So I was right out of high school. And that year, I had gotten a call from a friend who said, Dave, do you have a suit? He said, of course I got a suit.

He said, put your suit on, I'm picking you up. So I put my suit on, I have no clue what's happening. We drive to a beautiful hotel near O'Hare Airport, and he still wouldn't tell me what's going on. And then we go on to the lower level, we go into this beautiful room, and there's a lot of people in there. And he said, you are about to witness one of the most

most incredible things you'll ever see. And then all of a sudden, the most dynamic person comes out and starts telling all the people in this room, this incredible story, how it doesn't matter where they've been, what they've been through, or what they think of themselves, they can be successful. And this person was none other than Zig Zigler. The famous motivational speaker, yeah. Yeah, I mean, listening to Zig Zig Zigler's share how I could become an entrepreneur selling oil additive and gas conditioner. And I never heard anybody so motivating, so inspiring, telling me that I could be successful. So go home and my dad asked why I put on a suit and where did I go.

I said, you know, I heard the most amazing thing that I could. be successful. I could hold my own business. And I said, Dad, you got to hear this guy. He's having another meeting tomorrow night. Would you please go with me? I begged him. So he goes with me the next night. And here, this guy sounded like my dad. This guy was from Yazu City, Mississippi. He spoke with a southern accent. He said, doesn't matter where you come from. Doesn't matter what you've been through. Anybody could succeed. And my dad was blown away, too. For the first time, he thought his son maybe could be a businessman, maybe, you know, it's oil conditioners. It has to do with a car.

And maybe my son can do that. So you went to see Zig Ziglar speak. And by the way, we had Holly Thaggardon, who founded Supergoop, who also was influenced by his tapes. How did you find this opportunity to get involved in selling a fuel additive? Was that connected to Zig Ziglar or was that completely separate? I think Zig Ziglar was the spokesperson for a multi-level company. Got it. And it cost $2,500 to join.

Now, $2,500 in 1971 was a lot of money. But my dad, for the first time, realized that his son, who wasn't the best student, who barely got through school, who had ADHD, maybe this was something that he could do. So my dad had some savings, and then he borrowed some money to give me this chance. Just out of curiosity, what was the product? Tell me what the product that you were trying to sell. It was called steed conditioners.

There was a gas additive, which made your car run better. There was an oil conditioner. Right. And did you have success selling it? I don't think I sold one case of the stuff. My dad had a garage full of steed, oil, and gas conditioners, which never went away. I didn't sell anything. But here's the thing.

Part of this opportunity was we had to go through a five-day how to sell training program. That training program changed my life because part of the training program every day was they would tear down everything you thought about yourself, and then they would build you up. I read that you even, you would, like, stand in front of a mirror and practice shaking hands to gain confidence as a salesman. Would you do that? Yeah, because, you know, growing up, I was really probably the shyest bashful kid in class, and here I am trying to be a salesman. And so for years in my dad's basement, I stood in front of a $5 mirror that I got from Kmart. I had a candle and I would say, A, B, C, and I tried to put that candle out with my voice.

And I would practice smiling in the mirror. Today, everybody thinks I'm photogenic. They think I've got a good smile. Well, I worked at that smile. In fact, I even would wink at myself. But these were the things that I did because I realized I had to change who I was. I had to go from being a shy, bashful, dumb kid to being somebody that could go into a room

and be able to share a story, being able to tell somebody who you were. But meanwhile, the gas conditioner business did not work out, and I guess you then got like another job working at a new store location for any power? Right. And that was a pretty important turning point in my life because I helped open up a brand new store, start to finish, which would help me later on in life.

But I went over there, and the significant part of this is that not only did I meet my wife there who was selling menswear at Eddie Bauer, that's kind of how I get into selling terrariums. Wait, terrariums? Yeah. There was a young lady there who was selling these little bubble balls. at Christmas that had partridge berries and what they call princess pines wrapped in some moss. And I never seen anything so beautiful. Well, she had said that she just couldn't go out and sell them.

I said, well, I can sell. And so on my own time, when I wasn't working at 80 Bower, I would go out and I would go to a flower store and show them these bubble balls and they liked them. Then I realized that I should be doing this for myself. So I started making my own line of terrariums in planted dish gardens. And you would just make them yourselves? You would just make the little garden inside the balls? Yeah.

I actually had a corner in my dad's basement where I would bring these huge bags of dirt and sand and other ingredients to make the right dirt for these terrariums. then my dad being an electrician set up a whole line of grow lights in his basement. So I started bringing in hundreds and hundreds of plants. How did you know what to do? You just kind of figured it out? How did you know how to make them look nice? Well, I think it goes back to my art teacher who said, Dave, you see things other people don't see.

So I think I had this ability that I could take these little plants and arrange them so that there was almost this sort of magical feeling. to them. You know, they were alive. They had color. And I was able to arrange them. So they really looked special. And I think that's what the florist, you know, saw when I would bring my samples. They saw something that was really special. So did you start to make some sales? Yeah. The first time I have my own samples, I go to Richard Lang Flores. And I got my first order from Mr. Ashner at Richard Lang Flores. And that Mother's Day, I went to his flower shop

because I knew he was going to be busy. And you know what a lot of people don't realize is that florists, unlike a retail store that can order toys three months in advance, florists have to work like days around the clock because it seems like everybody forgets they have a mother until Mother's Day. But all of these flower arrangements have to be,

So I went to him and I helped him. I busted down his boxes. I swept his floor. I even cleaned his bathroom for him. And then I helped him deliver flowers. And after that mother's day, everybody's exhausted. He comes up to me and he said, here, put this in your pocket. And he hands me a fistful of cash. And I said, Mr. Ashton, I can't, I can't accept this. I came here to help you because that's how grateful I am, you gave me my first opportunity. Mr. Ashtner couldn't believe that I would work for nothing. And he went and told every one of his florists that he was good friends with. He said, you've got to meet this kid. He's a hard worker. He's got beautiful stuff. Give him a chance. Give him an opportunity. So after that first summer, I had almost every major retail florist in the city of

Chicago. Wow. Buying your terrariums. Buying my terrariums, planted dish gardens. Yeah. So were you starting to feel pretty confident about the business? Well, you know, part of my story is that I'm Native American, just started out in business. My parents don't have money. I don't have money. My business is growing, and I can't get a bank loan. I must have pounded the streets of Chicago. I went to bank after bank and always got turned down.

You've got to have assets. You've got to have collateral. And I said, well, I'm starting out. really don't, by the way, what's an asset? I mean, I would have stacks of orders and I would go into a bank and I wasn't able to get anywhere. But something else Mr. Ashtner shared with me one day, he said, you know, Dave, if you really want to get ahead, you've got to join the local Chamber of Commerce. So I dressed up and I went to a Chamber of Commerce meeting. And here, every mover in Sheikers, the community that was in business was there.

And they always had a speaker. And so I liked that. I joined my local Chamber of Commerce and I was there religiously. In fact, I started helping set up. And one day I was at a Chamber of Commerce meeting. And one of the presidents of the bank grabs me after the meeting. His name was Gerhard Umlough. He was the president of the bank.

Bank of Chicago on Wilson Avenue. He said, Anderson, Jim Ashtner speaks highly of you. He said, I'm having a promotion at my bank this Saturday. How would you like to set up in our lobby? I'm going to have somebody on the other side pass out hot dogs and balloons and popcorn, and you can sell your dish gardens. So the next morning, I show up at the bank, I set up, and I sell out. Wow. I'm packing up my boxes and about ready to leave and the president of the bank, Gerhard Umloff, he says, Anderson, he said, I want to see you in my office. I am sweating bullets. I think I must have pissed off one of his customers and I start to go back to his office and I have never seen a desk as big as this desk. And he says, pretty good job,

Andy. I heard about your dish gardens and you really did a good job with my bank client. tell here. He said, I also understand that you're looking for a loan. I said, yes, sir. He said, well, how much do you need? I said, $10,000. And he's looking at me. He says, well, what kind of assets do you have? Oh, my heart sunk. I knew I wasn't going to get my loan. I said, well, sir, I don't have assets. I figured I had a, you know, net worth of $400. And he didn't say anything for quite a while. He sat there looking at me. Finally, he reaches down into his desk drawer. He said, we don't usually do this, but I just watched you today sell out every one of your products.

He said, I'm going to take a fly on this. And with that, he wrote out a check for $10,000 on my signature alone. And obviously, I mean, you were really able to grow this business. I read that. Like, at a certain point, you were doing more than like $300,000. in revenue a year. And you'd hired a bunch of people, you know, you had employees. But I guess it ground to a halt and eventually like went under.

What happened? Well, act of God. You know, I don't know how to explain it other than the Chicago blizzard of 1979. Look it up. You will see snow that goes over the roof of cars. The mayor of city of Chicago could not clean city streets for three months. Because of that blizzard, that snowstorm, that just created a gridlock in the city of Chicago,

a lot of businesses went bankrupt. And in the flower business, I had a whole bunch of floors that could not pay me at all. And then for months, no orders. At that time, you were in your 20s. Were you married? Yeah. Did you have kids at that point when you had the terrarium business? We just had one young son, James.

And, you know, a lot of people don't realize when you can't pay bills, you know, back then I was digging through seat cushions to find change just so I could buy my kids' milk. It was tough. It was just so tough that because of the snowstorm, I ended up going bankrupt, lost everything because of that. Yeah. So this is the early 1980s, and when that business collapsed, I guess you worked at a few other jobs in sales before you landed a consulting gig with a Native American tribe in Wisconsin. What kind of business did they have that they needed help with? Well, it was my mom's tribe, the Lake Superior Band of Lakouture, Ojibway. They had called me up and they said, Dave, we understand that you always. your own business in Chicago. We could really use your help. They had a cranberry marsh. They had a logging company. They had a construction company that was building houses for Indian people. They had a grocery store. They had a printing company. They had a gas station. And they had a bingo haul.

But one of the things I noticed right away was every time I was in one of these businesses, we were failing. We were losing money like water flowing out of a sieve. hundreds of thousands of dollars, easily a half a million dollars a year we were losing. And then I realized that the problem was that with any of the people working within these businesses, they didn't think successfully. They didn't talk about achievement. So they wanted you to help them kind of turn their businesses around. And you kind of realized that morale was actually the biggest problem. It wasn't mismanagement. It wasn't. But morale was the top.

hop challenge? Not just morale, just the basic understanding of thinking successfully. Yeah. They didn't talk about profits. They didn't talk about achievement. That's when I called up Zig Ziglar, and I said, Zig, remember me? You met my dad, were the Native Americans from Oklahoma, my dad's Choctaw. He said, I remember you, Dave. I said, I would like to bring 20 of my managers and my assistant managers down to Dallas, Texas to go through your born-to-win course. So I bring this group down there. I come back and boy did I catch holy hell. The tribal leadership comes to me and said, we heard you took all of our managers down

to Happy Camp. We could have used that money to have groceries for the poor. We could have built roofs over the elderly. I said, yeah, but you're failing in your businesses because nobody thinks about success. And when they came back from the Zig Ziglar experience or sessions like the team that you brought there, were they transformed? Very much so. We had a group of native business people who went from doing a job to becoming entrepreneurs in a way that really wanted to be successful in their businesses. And within three years, we turned around all the businesses.

We're now making money. We now have accountability, and we got recognized by President Reagan's commission on Indian Reservation economies as being one of the top eight most progressive tribes in the country. So I guess on the strength of this success, you decided to go and get more education. You decide to do a master's degree in the mid-80s. And by the way, just because we didn't talk about this much, you actually went to college. Back in the 70s, you went to Roosevelt University in Chicago, but she never finished. But still, you went and pursued a master's degree in public administration at Harvard. How did that happen?

Well, kind of what happened for years. I mean, years, I would enroll every fall religiously. I would enroll in school. And I always dropped out. I mean, I think if you went back and looked at Roosevelt University's records, you'd laugh because you'd see. enrolled, dropped out, enrolled, dropped out. I just could never make it. I think what made the difference for me at Harvard was I was able to take the courses that I wanted to take, and I took courses that I understood, because once you get into any master's program in Harvard or any graduate program,

you can basically go to any school there and take a course. So having worked for a tribe, I I really flourished in a course that had to do with community development. And so I was able to design a course that really made sense to me, and I was passionate about it. And I did well. I mean, in fact, I did really well. So by then, I'm starting to understand that maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought. So in 1986, you get your degree from Harvard or master's degree, and you are the then I guess sort of recruited by another tribe in Minnesota to help them with their bingo operation.

And this is like early days. I mean, sort of Indian casinos and Indian gaming was still in kind of its nascent phase at that point. So tell me what you, what you did. I mean, you get there and they had like bingo parlors there and that was how they were making some of their money. Right. And I didn't know a thing about bingo. But again, you know, one of my strengths is seeing things that other people don't see. So I'd watch this bingo game.

And I would see generally ladies and some guys, older guys, they come to bingo, you know, spend a few dollars and have a good time. And I got to thinking, you know, some of these gals really spend a lot of money playing bingo. So I asked this other guy who was kind of helping me, I said, Fred, I said, what do you think they spend here sometimes? He said, you know, they may spend anywhere from $20. to $50. I said, really? Well, this place can hold 400 people. Where was it held?

It was in a skating rink for kids. And I said, why don't we hold a big bingo game? Because back then, the bingo games generally had a jackpot of $1,000. But I was thinking, well, if I could fit 400 people in here and they spent $50, that's $20,000. So I said, Fred, why don't we offer a job? $20,000 jackpot. And he looked at me like I was crazy. I said, I think we can do it.

I said, if you were to have $20,000 bingos, what do you think they would pay? He said, well, I think they'd spend $100. I said, great, let's charge $100 and see if we could sell it. And did people, I mean, $20,000 jackpot, I'm assuming it attracted people to the bingo hall. Oh, my God, we not only sold out. We had people that were like banging on the door. We literally had to lock the doors, and we had hundreds of people standing outside that wanted in.

And that's what really kind of started my being known in Indian country, because then I started like a consulting business that I would help other tribes figure out how to do big bingoes. And I was doing some consulting for the Malax tribe, and the tribal chairman came up to me. He said, I foresee that casino gaming is going to be a big thing. Could you help get us started? And so we were able to put together a financing group. So I was one of the original founders of Grand Casinos. And so all of these casinos were on Indian tribal lands?

We started out that way, and then we got to be so successful. We actually took Grand Casinos public. So that's the first time I was part of a company that went public. Wow. And we went on to build eight casinos all over the country. Wow. In fact, also built Stratosphere. Oh, Stratosphere, the hotel in Las Vegas?

Yeah. So this is kind of a turning point. It sounds like a pretty significant turning point in your life because I'm assuming that really for the first time you actually came into some significant personal wealth. Yeah. But we were also helping tribes become successful in emerging gaming markets. But I want to be careful when I say this because not every tribe does really well with casino gaming. Yeah. There's a lot of small tribes that have small gaming enterprises, but the one thing they're able to do is keep people employed.

And there's probably only a handful of tribes that really have come into significant wealth. But a lot of these tribes also help other tribes because now there's access to capital. But I guess kind of in the early 90s or maybe the mid-90s, you sort of decided to take yourself out of the gaming world. Why? What happened? Yeah, I can remember that the day that stratosphere opened, my wife and I were in a limousine on the bottom watching this wonderful skyscraper casino that really, really changed forever the skyline of Las Vegas. And I said, I think I'm going to leave tomorrow. Wow.

I didn't want casino gaming to be what I was known for in life. I really was a Native American. I was an entrepreneur. I really don't want my kids to think that gaming was where dad hung his hat in life. And that's when I made the decision to quit. So I guess, I mean, as you were, you know, working for grand casinos, but in the back of your mind, it's in like the mid-90s, you started to come up with an idea for a barbecue restaurant. And I know you had been obviously a barbecue fan.

And, you know, I know your dad was really into barbecue and would take you to places in the south side of Chicago. But were you always kind of experimenting over the years with like building fires and smoking meat and grilling meat? Like people knew you as the guy who made great barbecue? Well, I can remember it was still in grade school, but I had come home and my dad was home. And I can remember opening up the porch door. And I was just overwhelmed by this aroma. And he had been to the south side of Chicago. He had gone to one of his favorite barbecue joints.

And I see my dad pulling this rack of ribs out of his lunch bucket that was wrapped in newspapers. This was the real deal, real wood, real flames, real fire. And I tasted that rib. And even though I've been eating barbecue all these years, it was that day, that time, that rib, I said, I'm going to learn how to make barbecue. Why did you want to open up a restaurant? Well, I don't think I started out that I wanted to open up a restaurant. I just wanted to make great barbecue. And so I started inviting friends over to my cabin and could say, hey, why don't you guys come over this Friday and I'll cook you up some barbecue? Yeah. They said, sure.

So then they started showing up and they'd say, oh my God, Dave, this stuff's phenomenal. You ought to open up your own rib shack. Well, the more that happened, finally the dream started to come together. And so in the north woods of Wisconsin, I started building. this barbecue shack. So wait, you decide. I'm going to open this up. I think you opened it up in Hayward, right? In Hayward, Wisconsin. Is that right? Hayward, Wisconsin, a little town of only 2,000 people. I mean, let's just be honest. Most people, when you say Wisconsin, don't think Southern barbecue. No, Wisconsin's all about Broughtwurst and cheese. Right, exactly, right?

It's Browherston cheese. And did anybody say to you, hey, you know, you make great barbecue, Dave, But there are 2,000 people in this town. How are you going to make this a sustainable business? I mean, did anybody say that? Oh, as I was building my barbecue shack, people would drive by and they'd say, Hey, Anderson, what are you doing? I said, I'm building a rip shack. And they literally would laugh at me, and they would say,

are you crazy? Hayward, Wisconsin? Why don't you go down to Memphis or Kansas City, Nashville? Some place down south are people really know barbecue. You got to be nuts. Coming up after the break, why Hayward, Wisconsin turned out to be just the launch pad that Dave needed to become famous. And how that first restaurant fueled an aggressive expansion that nearly broke the business. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 1994, and Dave Anderson has decided to open up a... a barbecue shack in the little town of Hayward, Wisconsin, and he set himself a pretty high bar. Before I even opened the doors, I had already determined that I was going to have the best ribs. I was going to have the best honey-buttered cornbread, the best barbecue baked beans. I had this list, and, you know, I started out with my dad's recipes, but I visited every barbecue joint every time I was going anywhere.

I always look at who had barbecue joints in town. And I learned things. I liked how somebody did their cornbread. Or I liked maybe how they had one type of sauce or how they were doing their briskets. And Guy, I know you've been all around this country. And if you were to tell me that you know for a fact they had better coastal on Anchorage, Alaska. I will be on a plane today. I will be flying up to Anchorage, Alaska.

And by tomorrow night, I will have stolen that recipe. But, I mean, you knew, like, you had recipes because you were making barbecue from the time you were a kid, right? Yeah, I can remember even back then, we were the first family on our block that had a charcoal grill. And so I started learning how to grill foods and then I wanted to smoke things. And we didn't have a smoker. So I took an old trash can. I cut a hole in the bottom. I took rebar, put it across so I could put my ribs on top of that.

And so by time I opened Famous Dave's, I actually have been working on my recipes for 20 years. Because, you know, the ingredients that you use to create the sauces, the seasonings, barbecue is not easy. It's hard. Because to make a good barbecue sauce, you know, it's almost like Chinese cooking. There's a lot of flavors involved in making a good barbecue sauce. It's sour. It's got a robust spiciness to it.

It's sweet. And then there's different forms of sweetness to it. You've got your brown sugars. You have your honeies. You've got your fruit sauces. There's a lot of nuances to making great-tasting barbecue sauce. And I think especially when you're creating robust flavors, that heat is very important. And a lot of people may not realize this, but every menu item at Famous Dave's is hot.

My coleslaw has a bite. My beans have halpinos in them. That heat opens up the taste buds. And that's when you really can enjoy the full flavor of my cooking. And did you give it the name Famous Dave's as kind of a joke? Because you weren't get famous, right? Well, the road to Famous Dave's, and not only are we in a small town, but I was also eight miles out of town. And on the road, out of town, there's like Dave's guns, Dave's antiques, Dave's boats.

So I was going to name my place, Dave's famous barbecue shack. We're getting ready to open. I get my business cards, and it said, famous Dave's barbecue. I am mad. I can't believe the printer messed up my business cards. And my wife, in all her wisdom, said, Dave, calm down. Why don't you just leave it? You know, we're about ready to get open.

leave it. So famous Dave's, the rest is history. Wow. I read that, like, you were obsessed with all kinds of things. Like, when you, when you set out to make the restaurant, you wrote down 100 things that you wanted to be the best at, not just like the best ribs and the best brisket and the best coleslaw, but like the best bathrooms? Like, is that, is that right? Like, you wanted to put a lot of attention into the bathrooms in the restaurant? I believe that I'm the first one that coined the term bathroom marketing. I think that's one of the things that people talked about was my bathrooms. My lady's bathroom had imported rose-painted basins in 24-carat gold faucets on a marble base. I had wrought iron around the mirror. I had crown molding. I mean, who puts crown molding

in a bathroom? But I could remember when we first opened, I got a call within the first week some lady said, Anderson, write me down for 8.30 on Thursday, your women's restaurant. I said, what? She said, you heard me. 8.30, I want your women's bathroom. She said, I'm going to hold my next cocktail party in there. Wow. So it was really just about, you know, there was all kinds of details. It wasn't just great food, but you wanted people to talk about the bathrooms. Well, it wasn't just the bathrooms. I think it goes back to my best of the best list. For instance, my music. I personally inventoried every blues song that was played in a famous daves. I had something like 6,000 blues CDs back then. I knew the difference between jump blues, pushbeat blues. I didn't

want any old blues. I wanted all the sort of Chicago jump blues. So when people were sitting in a famous daves, I almost wanted it to be sublimally. They had to start getting in this groove and they felt good and they were bopping around. So that was all the experience. I wanted to touch all five senses from the smell of the wonderful wood aromas of meat

smoking in my pit to them feeling good because of the music. And then the visuals, I put a lot of antiques in my famous daves. So everything about famous daves was really sensory overload. I'm looking

at Hayward on the map, and It is, I mean, it's up there. It's in northern Wisconsin. It is far from everything. It's like got to be, what, two hours from Minneapolis? Three hours. Three hours. Okay.

Seriously, we're out in the middle of nowhere. And even though I never advertised, it wasn't but months that the word quickly has spread throughout Wisconsin. And even as far away as Iowa, I mean, we're serving 6,000 people a week. And as I'd be walking through the restaurant, people would grab me. And Dave, you got to open up one of these in my town. I said, well, where are you from? Well, we're from Des Moines, Iowa. We drove all the way up here.

We heard about your barbecue. We just came all the way up here just to eat. People actually demanded us to have famous daves. And so the first famous daves outside of Hayward was in Minneapolis. I found an abandoned gas station. It was only 2,900 square feet. We only had 50 seats. And we opened up.

Again, without any advertising, but within weeks, I've got a line around the block. Wow. We're doing phenomenal numbers. I can't even keep food in stock. I had to get a refrigerator truck to park next to my little restaurant just so we had food to cook. What was the, I mean, what was it that you were doing? I mean, obviously your food was good, but you got to put the word out. How were people finding out about it?

Was it just word of mouth? You know, it was like word of mouth on steroids. You know, I have no idea, but people were telling friends and friends telling friends. You got to try the barbecue. But, you know, I think that's what speaks to famous daves, is that I went through all of the things it took to make great barbecue. I slow smoked our ribs until they were tender. I flame charred them so we were able to caramelize the sauce on them. But more than anything, Guy, it's America's food.

Barbecue is how America celebrates. You know, if you want to have a good time, you tell your friends, come on over. We'll have a backyard barbecue. Yeah. You know, I know that while you were starting to get famous days up and running, you were also kind of struggling in your personal life. You were drinking heavily at the time, and you would later recognize that as alcoholism. Can you tell me about that about what was going? going on in your life? Well, I'm pretty open that my life has had some very dramatic transformations.

I do think sometimes that our Native American folks struggle with alcoholism. I know my mom's side, it was in the family. I know on my dad's side, it was the family. But, you know, you didn't talk about those things. And so I wasn't really aware that was something I needed to watch out for. And, you know, over the years, it just kind of built up where, you know, I couldn't wait till Friday so I could party and couldn't wait until Saturday so I could party after work. And, you know, what I didn't realize was that pretty soon. I was partying on Sunday and it wasn't too long after that. I was partying on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I was parting all the time. And one morning my wife came to the bedroom. She said, Dave, you got some friends downstairs.

You better go down and see them. I said, I didn't remember inviting anybody over. She said, well, they're here. And they say you're friends of yours. I'm all confused. I have no idea what's going on. So I go downstairs. And sure enough, there was people that I knew, and it didn't take me too long to figure out what was going on. They were doing an intervention. on me. And that was a tough thing. You know, nobody wants to admit that they struggle with alcoholism. Nobody wants to admit that they need help. But here I was listening to my wife, my son, and some really close friends tell me how much my drinking was taking a toll on the family. And when they said, Dave, you got a choice here. What are you going to do? And I said, you know, let's do this thing.

How were you able to, did you go to treatment? Yes. You know, treatment sounds like a tough thing. And I think it's one of the reasons why people who are struggling kind of don't want to have anything to do with it. Because it sounds like something people do to you. But today, I am so grateful 25 years this April, I've been sober, that today I look at treatment is really recovery. And recovery is a gift. And, and, I mean, meantime, things were moving fast with famous days.

Like, you opened that first location in 94, and then a second one in 95 in Minneapolis. And then by 96, you've got four restaurants, I think all of them in that region. But then with just four restaurants, you decide that year to take the company public. Well, you know, I'm very open about it. I think that was one of the worst mistakes. of my life going public because I didn't realize that when you go public, you don't own it anymore. But we went public and we actually oversawed. We were supposed to open up at $6. We ended up opening at 11. Wow. So Famous Dave's Goes Public in 1996 and a new CEO is named Douglas Lanham.

Did you bring Douglas on because you were now a public company and you thought it was better that he kind of run the operation? Well, one of the things I was told by the Wall Street guys was that I was just a barbecue guy that I needed to hire Wall Street savvy casual dining executives. The one thing was is that they tried to run famous days as a casual dining company when really we were a bunch of. barbecue company. We sort of lost our heritage of being just barbecue and people were trying to turn it into something else. So you were basically the chairman of the board. Douglas Lanham lasted like a year or so before he stepped down because the stock price was falling. And I guess around 2000, Famous Dave's kind of shifted or pivoted into a franchise model. Did you support that idea? I think I was always supportive. Looking back, though, I wish we had kept it within the family.

But, you know, we had some good franchise partners. But I think one of the problems early on was they tried to get rid of the lines that we had around the block. And so they thought that the way to alleviate that was to build bigger boxes. So they were giant. They were just giant restaurants. Too big. Too big. And today there's a lot of.

of 6,500 square foot boxes that probably should have never been built. But to me, the franchise model was going to be tough for Famous Dave's because it was your recipe. It was a whole technique. And you're kind of handing that off to franchisees and you risk giving up the quality, right, when you turn to a franchise model. Well, I think that's one of the things that's hallmark about Famous Dave's is that we never really lost the quality of our food.

my original menu is actually inspired by Jimmy John's dad, James Leotode, who he said, Dave, he said, first of all, you want to keep everything simple. And the second thing, you always want to do everything in threes. And he said, there's something magic about threes, whether it's the Holy Trinity, it's the three little pigs, the three amigos, the three amigos, on your market set go, ready aim fire. People remember things in threes. So the original famous day's menu is really pork, beef, and chicken, coffee, milk, and pop, coastal beans, and potato salad. You know, it was all in threes, and even how we trained people. We would season, smoke, and serve.

Now, there might be several steps underneath, but everything was done in threes. And I think that speaks to going back to that 100 best of the best things that I wanted to accomplish was I wanted to have the best training program in America. So in the early days, I spent about $2 million developing my training programs. And I created this leadership from the Heart Training Program that actually focused on building up the people. The second thing I did was I created Hogghaven University. I wanted to create certified pit masters.

And then I also created a train the training program. And so we spent a lot of money on training. In fact, people would look at famous daves and they say, wow, you guys spent a lot of money training people. What happens when you spend all this money training and they leave? All I had to do was look at them and say, well, what if I didn't train them with the best training I could do? And they stayed. After the company went public and you kind of found an outside CEO and they, and then, you know, there were other kind of corporate folks who were brought in to run the company.

Did you feel like you were losing control over the business that this idea that you had was kind of slipping away from you? I think for the most part, the only thing I regretted was the company building these bigger boxes. And, you know, barbecue is a type of thing that grows slow. and it's slow smoking. I think that tried to grow too fast. I think that was one of the problems of being a publicly traded company. Now it seemed like we were being run by the court of the earnings report. And if we were to miss earning statement by one penny, my God, the stock got slaughtered.

And as a Native American, I didn't have a lot of people around me that could counsel me. You know, I was sort of at the mercy of people that knew how to run publicly traded companies on Wall Street. That's what I think I didn't feel comfortable with. So when you had ideas, would they listen to you? When you said, hey, let's do this. Let's do that. Or would they say, well, Dave, we got this. We know what we should do.

You know, I think that's a struggle with any growing business. I think they thought of me, even though I was the founder and I was the creator of all this, they sort of thought of me as the entrepreneur. And they thought that, you know, the corporate people needed to take over and that the entrepreneur just sort of messed things up. And today, I wish I had fought harder and I had trusted my gut more because I would have stayed to these smaller footprint. and I would have stayed to a smaller core menu. 2003, you stepped down to become an assistant secretary at the Bureau of Indian Affairs in Washington, D.C. Must have been an exciting opportunity for you.

So you just kind of, at that point, just left Famous Dave's entirely. Like, you walked out and said, look, I'm going to go do this job, and maybe I'll be back and see you in a couple years. Well, the reason why I left is I had to. When you accept a job as an assistant secretary or any high-level government job, you basically have to sign away all of your rights to any of your business interests. And so as much as I wanted to stay involved, I couldn't. I had to, if I was going to do this job for the president and serve the White House,

I had to sign away all my business interests. Looking back, I wish I'd never did that. Because why? Well, I think what happened when I went to Washington, D.C., all of my entrepreneurial spirit got lost in the politics of being in government. And I should have listened to people who counseled me and said, Dave, you don't want to go to Washington, D.C. And I said, but I really believe that I can make a difference. I wanted to encourage entrepreneurship within the tribes. I really had some great ideas.

But when I got there, boy, did I get an awakening? That, you know, change doesn't happen in Washington, D.C., like people think. And as an entrepreneur who's used to getting things done, I was stifled here. And I was really frustrated. And, you know, it just seemed like every turn of the road, everything was gridlocked. So you stepped down in 2005. clearly frustrated with your job in Washington. And I guess you tried to come back to the board of famous Dave's, but the board refused to give you a seat. Is that right? Yes, that's one of the

unfortunate things of publicly traded companies. They felt they didn't need me. You know, they were still a shareholder. I was still a major shareholder, yeah. But you had no other influence over the company at that point. No, none. Wow. They felt they didn't. need me anymore. Wow. How did you take that? I mean, were you bad? Were you hurt? How did you respond to that? I was devastated. I was devastated. Everything that I worked hard for all my life, my ambitions. It was just like shattered. It was like, this was my dream. I had worked hard all these years, you know, in my kitchen, working on seasonings, working on recipes, working on my barbecue sauces. And I look back and I think, how can they do that?

When we come back in just a moment, why Dave Anderson decides to walk away entirely from the business and the surprise phone call that eventually brings him back. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So after losing a seat on the board of Famous Dave's, Dave Anderson continued to do publicity work and consulting for the company, but had much less of a say in how it was being run day-to-day. Famous Dave's was going through a lot of management shake-ups, and in 2014, the job of CEO went to a former CEO from McDonald's named Ed Renzi. He tried to turn Famous Dave's into a McRibb.

Got rid of a lot of the history of Famous Dave's. There was a lot of fun antiques that were... part of the decor. He started pulling the stuff off the walls. He started getting rid of, you know, our honey buttered cornbread. He thought it would be easier to take the honey butter off the top of the cornbread and just put it in the cornbread. But there's, you know, one of the most interesting stories of famous Dave's was in the beginning. I didn't have money enough to have a smoker.

I used a garbage can lid. And so our All-American Barbecue Feast has served on a garbage can. Well, Ed Renzi got rid of the garbage can lids and tried to put it on some type of stainless steel platter. And I can remember people just coming up to me and saying, Dave, my family just absolutely loves the garbage can lid with all your barbecue on it. Where'd the garbage can lid go? There's a lot of things that just was being, the heart and soul of famous Dave's was being ripped out. I guess you were so angry. that you, I read that you like severed ties with the company in 2014, is what, what happened?

Well, I wasn't going to listen to some guy who ran McDonald's tell me how to be a barbecue pitmaster. I had barbecue sauce running through my veins. I wasn't going to stand for it. And I just said, look, if the board at the time wanted to have somebody like Ed Renzi, if this is what you're going to do, I'm not going to be part of it. And so I basically emotionally, legally, financially was separated out of famous Dave's. Wow. Financially, too. Everything.

You divested. It's all gone. You sold all your stocks. Well, I didn't have much stock left. You know, what a lot of people don't realize is they may think I had a lot of stock. Well, over the years in the beginning, you know, like any business, you have your highs and you have your lows. Well, there were times when famous days had its lows where I put up my stock as collateral

and there were margin calls. And by time things were where they were, there wasn't much left. I mean, your name was still on all these storefronts all over the country. Well, you know, one of the things I didn't realize is that when the company went public is you don't own your name anymore. Yeah. So consequently, I lost something that I had worked all my life for. And, you know, I wish I had attorneys that had given me better counsel in the early days because, you know, I'm a Native American.

I don't have a community of people around me that could give me good counsel. And if the attorneys really cared for me, what they should have said was, Dave, you shouldn't go public. You really have something special. You should really keep this in your family. So you step away. And the brandist is not doing well at this point. There are a number of management shakeups. And I guess in 2016, you get a call.

They want you back. They want you to come help them rebrand and return to their roots. What's the story? So I'm kind of out of famous Dave's. And one day I get a call from Mike Wright, who was running the famous products retail line. And really, Mike was a good friend. And he called me up. He said, Dave, he said, I'm in the area.

Do you mind if I stop over? So Mike shows up my house. And he said, Dave, he said, there's some things we got to talk about. He said, the company misses you. All the franchise owners miss you. Your customers, they miss you. people who love famous Dave's are missing you. You've got to come back.

And I said, well, I don't think the leadership wants me. He said, that's not true. He said, people want you. They want you. You're involved. And I said, well, I am out of famous Dave's. I'm not going back. And he really laid a guilt trip on me.

He said, Dave, if there was ever a time, and there may never be another time, if there was ever a time that you come back, you've got to come back now. Because Ed Renzi's not going to be around. the company really needs you. There's new leadership. We need you back. That must have felt pretty validating. I was in tears.

I thought I would never hear that again. After Mike left, my wife and I talked, and it was really a tough conversation of what do we do? Famous Dave's has really been such a love-hate relationship where I love the food I created. I'd love being with our guests. And the reason why I came back was my wife and I came to an understanding that it was really the people that we cared about. It was the franchise owners.

It was the people who came to famous days who've loved the food. And I think it was for that as I knew I had to come back. So you start to, I guess essentially, consult with a company to take. help them like do a rebrand. And one of the things I guess you kind of suggested was to just kind of bring back the classics, right? The Cajun Chicken sandwich and the brisket burgers and other things. But also I guess at that time, this is 2016, and even to this day, Famous Dave started to buy back some of its franchises in order to kind of retake control, I guess, of the business. Yeah. One of the things I think the company realized is that

There was some franchise owners who probably had enough. There was a number of management changes over the years, and they kind of got disenfranchised with not having the passion they once had. So one of the things the company realized is that the only way they could write the ship was they probably had to buy back some of the franchise reinvest in them, get back the training programs that we used to have, and just kind of reinvent ourselves and bring back the basics, getting back to what made us famous in the beginning.

We needed to be devoted to making people happy. A new CEO came in in 2018, Jeff Cravello. And I guess, I mean, he started to ask, you know, kind of bring back some of those things like the trash can and the history. I mean, you go on the website now and your story is right there, it's front and center. Well, I think one of the things that makes Jeff so special is that he grew up eating famous Dave's in Chicago. He loved famous Dave's.

He was the first CEO who actually called me up on a regular basis. I mean, Jeff and I talk all hours of the night. He'll call me up at 11 o'clock and we'll talk to one in the morning. This is how passionate this guy is. Jeff reaches out to the franchise partners. you'll see Jeff in a restaurant actually pushing a broom when we were doing a remodel on one of the restaurants. Jeff was there with a paintbrush. I had never seen any prior CEOs actually get in a restaurant and want to work. And your role really in the company in a sense, and this is not,

I hope this sounds complimentary. I mean, you really are, you're like Colonel Sanders. I mean, you really are kind of the ambassador, the brand ambassador of the company. Do you feel like you are listened to more now than you were in the past? Today, there's without a doubt, Jeff listens to me. Jeff is the first CEO that actually brought me back to the board and said, you know, the board needs to hear your ideas, Dave. Because after all, you know, I'm one of the few barbecue restaurant owners that was actually inducted into the National Barbecue Hall of Fame.

Yeah. I'm a celebrity judge at all. all of the big barbecue events. I live in this world of barbecue. Yeah. By the way, is the company still publicly traded? Today, yes. The company is still publicly traded.

I think our stock is around three bucks. Right. So, you know, the only place you can go is up. Do you think that, I mean, you know, we're in the midst this pandemic, right? And many states in which famous states is operating have certain restrictions and there's a lot of delivery. And as you know, the restaurant industry has really been hit hard. Do you know, I mean, how is Famous Dave doing in the midst of this crisis? You know, Famous Dave's really is built on what's basically picnic food.

Barbecue travels, and it travels really well. When you look at our menu, when you're serving barbecued ribs, pulled pork sandwiches, beans, colesaw, that's the type of food that travels. The famous days restaurants are built for takeout. We have our own dedicated takeout doors. And that's why I think famous days for the first time in a long, long time is on the road to recovery. So we're actually able to thrive, unlike a lot of restaurants who are struggling. You know, given all the ups and downs of your career and a lot of incredible ups and a lot of just incredible triumphs and success.

but also some really tough, tough breaks. I mean, you know, even with famous days, you know, kind of taking a public and then, you know, losing the business for a while and the brand. And, of course, now you're back involved with it. But, I mean, when you kind of look back on the different decisions you made, would you have done things differently? Or do you think that you kind of had to make the mistakes you made in order to learn how to do things right? You know, Guy, I struggle, I think, every day sometimes thinking that I wish I could do things differently. But, you know, the reality is I really have overcome a lot of adversities in my life. I have done things in my life that I wish I hadn't done.

I should have been dead three times. I've been broke three times. But every time, I've always come back stronger. You know, I often tell people that life is not always on top of the mountain. It's the valleys and it's the struggles down there that you have to come back from where you learn things. I think that's how you grow. And so if you're not out there on the edge making things happen, how do you know what's possible? But one of the things I go back to is that the food of famous days, my original recipes are still holding the tested time.

And as much as we shoot ourselves in the foot, as much as we've made our mistakes and growing, is that people have always resonated with my food. And so, yes, we've had our tough times at famous days. But look at what we've also accomplished. Our barbecue products are in big box retailers like Target, Sam's Club, Costco. We are all over America. It could not have happened if things were easy. So, you know, I think my story of my struggles and overcoming my ADHD, overcoming my alcoholism, overcoming the tough times in my life is no different than the story of famous Dave's.

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, Dave. You know, your legacy will continue to live on after you're gone because at some point we're all gone, right, obviously. And this brand will continue. And is that more important to you, that legacy, than wealth? Or are they both equally important? Well, first of all, I don't think I've ever worked to get a paycheck more than I've worked to be a positive difference in the lives of other people. I've worked really hard to be good at what I do. But more than that, guy, I think if anything people remember about me, I've been,

able to build something and give jobs to families and create opportunity where there was none. And a lot of people sometimes say, God, would I wish I was in your shoes? I have to laugh. And I say, I don't think so. But the one thing I can share is that I am grateful. I live a life of gratefulness. I live a life of sobriety. And I live a life that I am so fortunate to be living in this country.

because the things that I have done, it doesn't make sense. There's no rhyme or reason that I was able to get a bank loan on my signature alone, much less having a 1.98 grade average in high school, no undergrad, and getting into Harvard University. Who would ever known that from some Indian kid growing up on the west side of Chicago? Yeah. When you think about your story and everything, you accomplished. Do you think that what happened to you happened because of your skill and

hard work and perseverance, or do you think a lot of it had to do with luck? Well, I don't know about luck. I wish I had been lucky. You know, I think luck is created when you have a dream. You're willing to work for that dream. You're willing to work hard. You know, I think luck is a byproduct of you just being 100% devoted to never, ever giving up. That's Dave Anderson, the founder of Famous Dave's. Earlier this year, the restaurant's parent company was bought by a Canadian franchisor in a deal worth $200 million. And last year, Dave was inducted into the National Native American Hall of Fame.

And by the way, some of you may remember that several years ago, Dave competed in a Food Network Barbecue Challenge called Best in Smoke and he made it all the way to the finals until Until right at the very end they pull a surprise you've got 20 minutes to cook something out of tofu I said what's tofu and all my years of cooking

I had no clue what tofu was and today I know there's like a firm tofu and there's like a silky smooth tofu well they gave us the silky smooth and I lost $50,000 because I could not cook tofu. Cannot grill silky tofu. I tried.

It fell through the grill grates. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you enjoyed it, please help us spread the word. Tell someone about how I built this or post about it on social media. And thank you. If you want to contact the team, our email addresses hibt at ID.wondry.com. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at How I Built This and mine is at Guy Raz. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtin Arablewe.

It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Dareth Gales. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Liz Metzker, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Sam Paulson, and Carla Estavis. Our intern is Susanna Brown. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.