How I Built This with Guy Raz - HIBT Lab! Saysh: Wes and Allyson Felix

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

Allyson Felix is the most decorated American track and field athlete of all time. She’s also a mother. Those two identities came into conflict in 2018 when negotiating a contract renewal with her shoe sponsor, Nike. Ultimately, Allyson broke ties with Nike because the new contract presented a significant pay cut and lacked adequate maternal protections. After struggling to find a new shoe sponsor, Allyson and her brother/agent, Wes, decided to take matters into their own hands and start their own shoe company, Saysh. This week on How I Built This Lab, Allyson and Wes talk with Guy about their journey to the top of the track and field world, the decision to leave Nike, and how they built the iconic shoe that Allyson wore during her gold medal performance at the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo. Plus, why most name brand shoes aren’t designed for women’s feet, and how Saysh is working to change that. This episode was produced by Chris Maccini, with music by Ramtin Arablouei.Edited by John Isabella, with research help from Lauren Landau Einhorn.Our audio engineer was Alex Drewenskus.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram, and email us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. Alison Felix is one of the greatest athletes of all time. In fact, she is the most decorated American track and field athlete in his head.

history. And yet, when she ran in the Tokyo Olympics, she did so without a shoe sponsor. And it happened because her previous sponsor, Nike, offered Allison a contract that she felt was a low ball. And so Allison decided to do something totally unconventional. She made her own shoe, and she became the first Olympic athlete to run in a shoe that was her own brand. The idea came from Allison's brother and business partner, Wes Felix. And now they turn that single idea into a shoe brand called Seish. It's a lifestyle and running shoe brand that is designed specifically for women's feet. And you might be wondering, wait, aren't all women's athletic shoes designed for women's feet?

Well, the answer actually is no. And you'll hear why in a moment. Allison and Wes both started track and field as teenagers, and it wasn't long before their talent and effort led them to. to much bigger competitions. Wes, you were really the first track star in your family, because from what I understand, Allison, you didn't really start running track until you got to high school. And Wes, you went to USC on a track scholarship, right?

I did, yeah. Yeah, I went to SC on a track scholarship. And, you know, Allison and I always kind of joke that, like, it went from when we were younger, people would come up to her and be like, oh, you're Wes's sister, right? And, you know, and then real quick, it, like, switched. And it was like, you're Allison's brother. So it was something Allison and I really were able to share together, this love for the sport, this, you know, this kind of passion to try to excel in it. She just, you know, a whole lot better.

Allison, you decided your senior year of high school to go pro, which I guess it was kind of controversial at the time because you were offered, obviously, every school wanted you. on their team and including USC where Wes went. But you decided that you would sign a deal with Adidas and become a professional athlete and still eventually go to college and end your degree. But that was kind of like a, as I say, it was kind of a controversial decision at the time, right? Definitely. It was something that in the U.S., to my understanding, no one had done before. And so, you know, people had all their thoughts on it. I remember watching one of Wes's track meets. It was like the USC, UCLA dual meet. And it was on TV. And so I'm watching in the broadcast. And somehow, like, my name comes up. And they start talking about this decision. And if I go pro, it's the worst decision in the history of high school. And so it was just a lot of people had different

thoughts on it. But for our family, it really came down to a timing thing. You know, Wes was at U.S. And I understood, like, to be a collegiate athlete, like NCAAs came first. You do all of the events. It's about points and all of those things. And at this time, the Olympics were going to be the next year. This is Athens, 2004. Yeah, Athens, 2004. And so it was like, if I'm going to try to make that team, I'm really going to need

to focus in on one event, peaking at the right time, and giving myself the best shot. And so ultimately, that was kind of the decision maker. And that was at 200 meters. Exactly, yes. So as a result of that, you couldn't get a scholarship and compete at the collegiate level, but obviously you wanted to compete in the Olympics, which you did. You won a silver medal in 2004. And in this sort of parallel world, Wes, you are, you've got the successful career at USC,

Pek 10 champ in 100 meter. I mean, but also it sounds like, Wes, you were also really focused on just college and getting a degree knowing that probably this was not going to be your career. Yeah, definitely. I never thought about it as a career. I knew I wanted to work in sports and entertainment, wanted to do deals and didn't have this like full master plan of what that would look like. But at the time, it was just let me run fast and work hard. And it was what was paying for college and, you know, and also like I was running well, winning, felt good. And my dad said, you know, if there's an opportunity to continue running, why would you not take that?

You know, like school's going to be there. Your mind's going to be there. But this opportunity to run professionally to go and sign a sponsorship deal, that's only there for a little bit. And you did. After you graduated, you did become a professional athlete for a few years and ran for Nike. I mean, it sounds like you were trying. I mean, you were sort of, there was a goal possibly that at least compete for the Olympic trials. But you, I guess there was a detour that you took as a result of an illness, right? Yeah, totally. I had a liver virus. I just was in practice and just felt really tired, couldn't hit times, you know, and my coach was kind of like, what's going on? You know, and I was like, I'm not sure. And he's like, are you getting your rest? Are you doing all the

things and I'm like, I'm doing all the things. Like nothing's changed. And went to the doctor. And so we start the tests and, and they run through and see like, yep, your liver enzyme levels, liver function levels are like off the charts. Something here is wrong. And it's probably a good six months of just in and out of the hospital, constantly taking tests, liver biopsies. But ultimately we got to a point where the doctor just said, you know, where we know that there's something wrong. with your liver. We know that there is at least at minimum a virus attacking your liver. We think that you need to stop competing. And so stopped competing. And yeah, and I think in a lot of ways, it was like it was really hard, but it was probably the best gift I could have gotten.

meantime Allison you became a student at USC and I guess you weren't on the track team you were you were competing at the international level but you weren't you were a student at USC studying education yeah I was studying education I was a normal student but I was also a professional athlete at the same time and I was I was having a really tough time like my freshman year because the way that track and field works is the majority of your competitions are overseas and so here I am like, you know, in Switzerland, racing and trying to explain to my professor why I need to take like a final on the road. And they're like, but you're not on the track team, you know? So it was that first year was really, really bumpy. You would go to the Beijing Olympics and compete again. And once again, you won silver in the 200 meters. The team won gold in the relay. And meantime, Wes, you. kind of knew that your career as a runner was over. And so what did you, what did you decide to do? Yeah, I knew that I was really interested in, in business. And so I called one of my friends and I was like, hey, I think I'm going to start like a fake business. Like, I just want to practice, like to just see, like, what are the steps? How do I build it? Like, what do we do? And, and he was like, yeah, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Like, why don't you just actually start something? And I was like,

yeah, I have no idea how to do that. And he was like, well, I think you could figure it out. And so I had this idea that was a online women's fitness email newsletter. And I like learned how to code and, you know, took this idea and built this website and built out an email newsletter subscription service. And but along the way, you know, I also was talking with Allison and was just like, yeah, I don't know. I'm like kind of, I'm getting into this thing, like building this thing, but I've always wanted to, you know, do deals for athletes. And what if we work together? Like, what would that be like? And we started this conversation of, of just exploring it, you know, and what would that even mean? What would it look like? And I remember that, you know,

Allison had like her contract with Adidas and it was this really great deal, really, really incredible opportunity for her, a really big deal in the sport. but I looked at what she was making off the track. I was looking at, you know, those sponsorships that she had outside of Adidas. And we kind of looked at each other and I was like, I think I can do that. I can go scrape up that much money. And I was like, in worst case, you know, then it doesn't work and you go back to, you know, a more traditional agent in the sport.

But what if it does work and we get to do it together? Wow. So I remember I wrote her a letter and this was after our conversation and we should look for this one day because it was probably so ridiculously formal, trying to be professional at 25 years old, and sent it over to her and said, you know, basically, dear Miss Allison Felix, I think we can partner up and I think we can change the world a little bit. And, yeah, she was sweet enough to say, yeah, I think we can. So you basically become your sister's agent at this point.

Yes. And one of the coolest things that you did, I think it's so important for anyone who is going into any field to think about doing exactly what you did was you reached out to Serena Williams agent, Jill Smoller. You didn't know you had no connection to, I guess you got to her over Facebook and you said, hey, can I like hang out with you for a little bit of time just to learn from you? Yeah, completely. I thought there is a whole lot that I don't know. but I also knew that kind of this dream or vision that I had from my little sister was bigger than just what I had seen in track and field. And I thought, okay, if we could build any sort of business around a female athlete, who would I want her to be? And I was like, well, Serena.

Yeah. And I was like, well, who helps Serena do what Serena does? And looked it up and found Jill's name and got her phone number and called the office and got to her assistant and tried. tried to set a meeting and couldn't get a meeting, couldn't get a meeting, couldn't get a meeting. And finally, I was like, I'm just going to try on Facebook. And I had no idea if she would be on Facebook. And sure enough, she was sent her a message. She wrote me right back.

And she said, what are you doing? Why didn't you call my office and set a meeting like a normal person? And I was like, I've been trying to get to you through your office. It's not working. And she was like, all right, come in tomorrow. So I came in tomorrow. And she's like, so what are we talking about? and I just pitched her what I thought Allison could be.

And she said, I really like you. And I really like this idea. And I think Allison's incredible. Let's do it. Yeah. So what did that mean? I mean, because being an agent, right, like there's a certain kind of approach you have to take. And so how did you learn?

What did you learn from her about how to do deals and how to represent Allison the best way you could? Yeah, totally. And I would say, like, what Jill taught me right away was. first humility. And she said, you know, there's going to be days you might be on a private plane with the CEO of some big company. And there will be days you're going to go and you're going to run and you're going to grab your client water. You need to be exceptional at both of them because the job is both. And she was like, you are never that important to not go and run and get the water. And I was like, okay. And that was easy with my sister, right? Because like if she was thirsty, I wanted her to have water.

But the other thing she said she taught me was how important information was. And she was like a lot of people are going to come to you with opportunities. That's great. She's like, you don't need me for that. What you don't know is how much other people are getting for that same opportunity. And when she said that, it fully clicked. And my trust for her grew even more. And people would come to me and they're like, you've got the biggest athlete in the sport.

Why do you have this talent agency? Why are you doing that? You know, like the deals are going to come to you. Why would you split the commission there? And it was because somebody can come with a 10-cent offer, but it's really a dollar deal. And that's what Jill helped me with. Yeah. And I learned really quick, they saw Allison's brother.

And that was an opportunity to take advantage of us. And as soon as I brought Jill in, then it was, I've got to get it together. The numbers have to be right. It has to be fair. And so the issue wasn't, could we get the deal or not? We could get the deal. We just couldn't get the deal for the right money. And Jill made sure the money was right.

Wow. Okay. So here you are. The two of you are building a business around Allison and her incredible talent. And I guess shortly after launching your own agency and becoming Allison's agent, Wes, you secured a new sponsorship deal for Allison. So leaving Adidas, signing with Nike. And then two years later in 2012, Allison, you get to the London. Olympics, you finally win the gold in the 200 meters, which that must have been an incredible

moment for you. It was, it felt like such a long time coming. And when Wes and I started to work together, it was like this sense of relief because it was just like, okay, I can fully trust this person. I can put my head down and do what I need to do. And so I remember going into the London Olympics. And obviously, now the pressure is even more because. It's like I've tried this twice before. I don't want to wait four more years to have another opportunity. And I just had this sense of calm.

I remember like getting to the starting line and I looked back at, I log every workout. I write everything down. I remember like just going back over it. And I was like, I'm ready. Like if this is for me, it is going to happen because there's nothing else I could have done in preparation. And I remember just giving my all. and then finally, you know, looking up to the scoreboard and seeing my name come up there. And it was just like, it was, I think the relief was bigger than the joy, if that makes sense.

It was just. Yeah. And I think I also had just built it up. Like, I thought, like, once I got this gold medal, like, everything was going to change. Like, I just, this is what I've been, like, aiming for. And then I remember, like, coming home and being like, oh, my God. I feel exactly the same. Like what happened here?

And I think the lesson in that was just really like instead of just this one goal that I've been aiming for, like the beauty has been along the way. Like that was the magic. And I had to just like look back and say like the next time I have like a defeat or a failure, like I'm going to embrace it. I'm going to like go. I get another opportunity. Like I'm just going to have a different mindset. meantime, from a business perspective, what are the things were you guys thinking about to kind of build out the business? Were you already thinking about, hey, maybe we can do a line of apparel or maybe we can work with a beverage company?

Were either of you thinking about starting something yourselves or was it mainly focusing on endorsements and partnerships? Yeah, it was really focused on endorsements and partnerships. I think that like everything that we had seen was this like constant reminder that the individual athlete, it's not really about that. It's about the big brand that you can help sell their product. And the goal is have the best brands. And if you have the best brands, then you'll have the best brand too. And so I remember us really focusing on the blue chip sponsors, you know, make sure you

have Visa, Procter & Gamble, Nike, Gatorade, like, these are the ones that if you partner with those companies, you know, they have a similar type of storytelling. And that's what allows you to become Mia Hamm, Serena Williams, Michael Jordan. It's the sponsors that do it. You know, and so it was this idea that like our job is work really hard. Allison has to win on the track. I have to go find the sponsors and then make sure. sure that there's a cohesive story. And if we do that, then, you know, everything else comes into focus and it all takes care of itself. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, we'll hear more about Allison's Olympic triumphs and the contract renewal offer from Nike that changed

to everything. That's ahead in just a moment. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This Lab. Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. My guests are Wes and Allison Felix. All right, so the two of you are building Allison's track career around sponsorships with big brands. And I guess this was sort of the typical playbook for an Olympic athlete. And Allison, you would go on in the Rio Olympics in 2016, I think, to win a silver medal and two gold medals that year. And then the next year, 2017, you are up for renegotiation with Nike to renew your contract. And I guess they came back with a surprisingly lowball offer.

What do you remember about that? I remember when Wes called me and he told me what it was. And the number was 70% less than what I had been making. And I remember just feeling like somebody had just like punched me. And at this point, that World Championships that we just came off of, I think, Wes, correct me if I'm wrong, I think I had become the most decorated athlete at World Championship history. Yeah, that's right. So it was like this moment of like a high.

Like we were celebrating like this is great. Like for me, I had been happy at Nike. And I was just like, okay, cool. I'm going to sign, you know, this will be my last deal. I'm going to end here. Like I didn't think anything more. So then when it came back, it was just like, oh my gosh, they don't believe in me anymore. And for me, like that is just huge.

Like I tried to be a good partner, you know, go above and beyond whenever there was calls. You know, I remember getting a call like my. 30th birthday that I had like planned for like a year and you know I got a call like well can you be here like somewhere across the world and I'm like yeah I guess I have to cancel my birthday party you know so it was just very hurtful yeah and at that point as you mentioned you had you were the winningest track and field athlete in the world like you'd won more medals at at world events which is amazing but this is a thing like you know it doesn't matter how how often you go to the meetings and how often you show up at headquarters and how many times you say yes and

all the people there who love you and work with you like at the end of the day like it comes down to a renegotiation and none of that seems to matter and it's crazy but it's it's like how big corporations work yeah and i think that's you know that like you said that's how it works and i was like okay i guess i'm at that age where you know it's up and it's you know it doesn't matter that my performance hasn't gone down. It's just like this is what happens at this time period and it's business and I, okay. But then at the same time, I had been putting off like my real life stuff that I wanted to do because I was like, well, you know, my job is to win medals. I have to be focused on this. And so that's when all of that shifted. And I was like, okay, well, if they're offering

me this, they think I'm done. I've been waiting to like, you know, I want to have a family, like do all these things. I just, why am I waiting any longer? Yeah. So you ran unsponsored because you were in these negotiations with Nike that would last about a year and a half. But meantime, you became, you were married and became pregnant with your first child. And you were worried about anyone finding out that you were pregnant while you were training, so you would train in the dark to hide your baby bump? Yeah. So this was like something that had happened in track and field.

And I was naive to it, you know, when I was younger, you know, I had been in the sport since I was a teenager. And I kind of heard whispers and saw different things. And then as I got older, I really understood what it was. But women really struggled through pregnancy and motherhood and track and field. And so what they would do is if they were like in between contracts like I was, they would hide their pregnancies. They would sign new deals and then they would carry on. Or contracts would be pause.

Athletes would be reduced. And so there was just like all of this struggle that would happen. And so I was just, I had so much fear around. Because you were still negotiating with Nike. the hopes of resolving this. Yes. It was the worst timing ever. And I told Wes, I was like, I've been the best client up until now. Now I'm making life really hard for you. And so even where we started off those negotiations, we didn't have anything on paper yet. So the fear really was that even that 70% less would be taken away once they found out that I was pregnant. So that's when

I started to say like, okay, I'm just going to do what everybody else has done. until I'm ready to, you know, see something on paper and disclose my pregnancy. And so I trained at 4 o'clock in the morning when it was dark. I went on for a time period where I was competing and I was pregnant and nobody knew. I wore baggy clothes. I rarely left the house. Like this whole time period that, like, I had dreamed about and that I was so excited about that should have been celebrated ended up being. ended up being the most isolating, dark, and lonely, and just really difficult time period in my life.

You also had preclampsia, which I'm very familiar with because my wife also had it with our first child. And so you gave birth 32 weeks to Cameron, to your daughter. Yeah. I mean, it was crazy. And being an athlete, I think I took my health for granted. I just never imagined I would be in that scenario. And there was points where, you know, when I called my family, you know, they weren't sure if what they were coming for. You know, were they coming because I wasn't going to make it? Were they coming, you know, to meet granddaughter, niece?

Like, it just, it was very scary. And then I think it just made everything feel so heavy because we're going through still this just brutal renegotiations. and then this like real life event happens where it's like, does any of this even matter? You know, I just want my daughter to survive. I want to be able to leave the hospital. And it was just, it just felt like too much. And in my mind, I had this like plan before any of this happened. I was like, okay, I'm going to have this baby.

I'm going to come back in four weeks. I am going to train. Like, this is what I know how to do. I'm just going to get it done. And then everything went out of the window. It took much longer than I could have ever imagined. And I remember my first workout back. My coach, he gave me a treadmill workout that was a 30-minute walk.

And by the end, I am just crying because I just can't fathom how am I going to compete with the world's greatest and I cannot even get through a walk. Wow. And so it was a very humbling beginning to the, journey back. You are still in negotiations with Nike in 2019. Wes, you are very much involved with these conversations with Nike. And I guess they're not budging. They're not going anywhere, right? Wes, what do you remember about Nike just wouldn't move on their offer? No, they weren't, they weren't moving, you know, and I think that one of the things that I would always try to do is

let me put myself in their position. How would I look at this if I had their job instead of mine. And it was, you know, you can do what feels right and fair or you can potentially get a top athlete for a whole lot less. It wasn't that they didn't think she deserved more money or that they didn't have more money to give her. It was on their end, a smart business decision. They looked at her age and said, you know, even if she goes and she can win more medals, she's got four more years left is another company going to spend this kind of money and then also try to rebrand her? No, we don't think so. And there was an angle of this where we started to really fight for maternal protection. And it was because we said to them, you know, you're already offering her 70% less.

We were able to get it from 70% less to 60% less. So clearly you can see how great my negotiating skills were. So we get it to 60% less, you know, and then we go through this process of, you know, disclosing the pregnancy to them. And for us, it was really important that we had the offer on paper. We wanted that in writing. But we were never, for us, just morally, we felt like it wasn't right to sign that contract without telling them that she was pregnant. And if they decide they don't want you because you're pregnant after they already offered

you a contract, then they, they can deal with whatever the consequences of that are. But we'll give them the out. We'll tell them. We're not going to sign it and then tell them after the fact. So we told them she was pregnant, but we had the offer in writing. If they wanted to pull out, they could have pulled out. But then what we had to address next was the way that these contracts are set up, you get a bonus if you win a medal, you get a reduction if you don't win a medal. So here was going to be Allison, you know, 10 months after giving birth. And she would need to go. to the world championships, she would need to win a medal.

And if she didn't, she'd get hit another 25%. And for us, that's where it was just like, no, that doesn't work. Like, that's the line in the sand where that's not okay. And that's not okay for Allison, but that's not okay for any woman. She's having a baby. Yeah. All right. May 22nd, 2019, you kind of dropped.

Dr. Baum on the world, you decided to write an op-ed in the New York Times about this experience of being pregnant while negotiating a contract with Nike. And I guess it came out of stories of other women athletes who were also dropped by Nike. And essentially made the point that, like, you know, Nike talks about women's empowerment and markets to girls. But when it comes time for the rubber, to meet the road here, like they don't, they're not supporting female athletes to become moms. Yeah. So what originally happened was I had two teammates who were working on this story with the New York Times. And West was actually involved in it because, you know, he had done all these negotiations. And so he was working kind of like anonymously with them. And we were kind of sharing

different things. And the idea was just that that's what that was going to be. You know, it's never going to attach a name to it. It was just that. And then the Women's World Cup was coming up. And I remember like this very vividly. I was sitting in Cameron's nursery and I got a call from Wes and he has, he's like, don't shoot the messenger. But Nike wants to know if they can use your image in this campaign. I think it was in a commercial, you know, for the Women's World Cup. And literally that was the moment that that just changed everything. Because I was just like, what? Like, Like, you know, like everything I had been through, you know, and then the birth experience, and I'm fighting my way back to get in shape and just like all of these things.

And I knew he was working on the story. And I was just like, okay, I need to be a part of this story. And we have to do this. We have to put our names to this. And I looked at my daughter. Like, that was the reason why, because I wasn't going to let Cameron and her generation deal with the same thing. And at that point, it was kind of like, if I lose every.

then that will just be what it is because this has to come out. Wes, when Allison told you she wanted to do this, take on the biggest athletic company in the world, how did you respond? Were you immediately supportive or was a part of you nervous? No, I was really supportive. And now I say it in a really calm way. Like, I was, you know, there were there were definitely racing thoughts but I remember I called up um the editor at the new york times and where where I live you lose cell service um from the house until you get like down the hill and I remember I called her at the house and I said all right let's go and then got in the car I drove down the hill when I got down the hill maybe three minutes um I had an email from Nike

and it was no words, just a contract that they sent via docusign. And I called the New York Times editor and I said, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. Did you already publish it? They just sent me a contract. And I think like in that moment and, you know, how Allison remembers her moment of sitting in the nursery with Cameron, I remember for me pulling off to the side of the road, shaking as I'm holding my phone, going through and looking at the contract and saying, like, they had to have changed it.

And I go through and I read through the first time, don't see any changes. I read through again, don't see any changes. I'm on my phone. I'm trying to figure out how do I search the document so I can just do like a keyword search to just search for pregnancy, baby, maternity. I'm just not seeing it. I read through probably about 11 times. and I just didn't see it anywhere.

And I was like, I have to be missing it. There's no way. I just got the same contract. Why would they send it? What are the chances? And I called the editor back and I was like, I read through it 11 times. There's nothing any different. And she was like, well, how do you feel?

And I was like, yeah, let's go. Like, go ahead and publish it and put my phone away and, you know, drove away and remember thinking, like, what are we doing? Yeah. But there was still this calm. I think I remember calling my dad and just telling him, you know, here's where it's at. And he just said, like, you can be proud of this. This is the right thing. And kind of held on to that.

And yeah. And then we let it out to the world. And I remember seeing the New York Times News Alert come through. And just, like, that moment was, it was terrifying. But it was also, I don't think I've ever been more proud of. of anything that Allison has ever done or that I've ever been able to do with her. We're going to take another quick break, but when we come back, more from Wes and Alice and Felix about how their experience with Nike inspired them to start their own footwear company,

Seish, which makes shoes specifically designed for women's feet. Stay with us. You're listening to How I Built This Lab. Welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm talking with former Olympic track star Alison Felix and her brother and business partner Wes. All right, so you release this op-ed in the New York Times, which details your experience with Nike, and that was the

moment that you probably didn't realize it quite yet, but that was a moment that would, of course, change the trajectory for both of you, right? Leading you from this business model that was about endorsements and sponsorships to a totally different model where you would do your own thing. You would actually

make a product, and that product would be shoes. At this point, Alison, you were planning to be in the Tokyo Olympics in 2020, which of course happened in 2021. Obviously, Nike was not going to be your sponsor. And tell me how the two of you started to think about, wait a minute, why don't we just make our own shoe? Like, why do we actually need Nike or Adidas on Allison's feet? Like, why not make it ourselves?

Yeah, it started kind of with first, I got a new athletic apparel sponsor. With Athleta. With athletic, yeah. They actually, they had never sponsored an athlete before. They read the op-ed, and they were just like, let's just have a conversation and see where it goes. But I would say that that relationship really changed my mindset because I felt like they empowered me. They wanted to celebrate me as an athlete, but also as a mother and support the advocacy work that I had started to do. And so it was like just this different experience. And so that set us off in the past. And so that set us off in the past. path of, okay, let's try to find this in a footwear company. Like, I love how this feels. It makes me feel good. At this point, I'm like, I see so much more value than just financial value. So, let's focus in on this and let's find it. And so at this point, I'm still competing. So I'm wearing athletic. And I am actually wearing like Nike shoes and I would just like peel off the Nike sign. And that's kind of what we were doing. And then I'm talking to Wes after like we're doing the search of

like trying to find, you know, this potential company. And I just got to this place where I'm like, I'm tired. Like I am so exhausted of asking these companies and like begging them to see my worth and my value. And it's like, how am I in this place? You know, I'm trying to compete for my fifth Olympic Games. And I am out here, like hustling and grinding, like taking meetings and trying to sell myself to have like a shoe sponsor. And Wes, He's always been the one with the big ideas and, you know, the visionary, very, like, hopeful and optimistic. And I'm, like, very much so the opposite. And so we're having this conversation.

And he's just like, well, why don't we just, like, do this ourselves? I love that so much. Wes, how did the idea come to you? I mean, it seems so so plainly obvious, but also so insurmountable, a shoe, right? But of course, that made perfect sense. How did you land on that idea? Yeah, Guy, this moment is probably going to be, as I share this with you, what's going to keep me single forever.

But it was the pandemic. I was sitting there. I was building Legos. And I just, I remember thinking, like, building stuff. It's like so cool. Like, I wonder what other stuff we could build. And that's how I kind of thought of it, you know, was like, huh, I wonder if we could build a shoe.

And it wasn't a serious. I wasn't thinking about a business or anything like that. But then when Allison called and she kind of, she speaks to that frustration. And at times that kind of gets me to like, you're just, you're being negative. Like there's hope here somewhere.

But in my own frustration, I said to her, well, why don't we just build our own? And, you know, she says back, like build our own shoe company.

And like older brother, I doubled down. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Why don't we build our own? own shoe company. And, um, and she's just kind of quiet. And then she comes back and she's just like, well, yeah, put together a plan. I was like, wow. Okay. Okay. Um, and I put my Legos down. And I,

I actually started thinking about it. And again, like, it's the beauty of building something is you don't quite know what you're building. You just start with the first step. Something I tell myself a lot and try to share with people is, you know, it's not about 10 steps. There's just one step 10 times. And I just thought through like, what's the first step? And I went back to her and told her, like, I think this is the first step. And she was down to take it. Wow. All right. So let's start with the nuts and bolts here. You know you want to do this. But first, Allison's got the Olympics to prepare for. And you want to design a shoe. And presumably, you want this shoe ready in time so she can run in them in Tokyo. I mean, first of all, you guys had some sponsorship money. So did you

have enough to at least finance like a prototype? Yeah, we were able to, yeah, self-funded. And we said we knew that if we were going to launch this, you know, it started with the shoe she runs in in the Olympics. And at that point, we were just thinking, if we make the shoe she can wear in the Olympics, we think other track kids, college kids, high school kids, they'll buy this. What an incredible platform, right, for a runner to be wearing her own shoes in the Olympics? Totally. We were like, yeah, we're going to be able to sell like a thousand of these, or maybe like even 5,000. Like, we're going to be able to sell these shoes, you know, like. And I remember talking with a developer.

that we found and asking her like, here's what we want to do. Do you think it's possible? And she's like, I mean, it's possible, but it's going to be really hard. And I was like, okay, but also like, how expensive is it going to be? Because, you know, during that whole fight, Allison didn't get paid for almost two years. You know, so there was, there was fear and stress around, is this the right thing to do? Is this a good use of money? Are we just doing this because we're frustrated? But we worked through the process and got an idea of how much it could potentially cost. But in that process, there was something that Tiffany Beers, the developer that we worked with, said to us that changed it all. What'd you say? She was like, well, you know, shoes are not made for women.

And I think we're like, oh, okay. What does that mean? Yeah, what does that really even mean? And I'm like, no, we've all been to, like, footlocker. Like, we see, what's that wall of shoes on that side? You know, the pinks and all of those ones. And she's like, no, like they're not made for women. A shoe is made off of a lass, which is a mold of a foot. And it's a man's foot that has been used to make women's footwear. And that just, like, it took a while to sink in.

And then it just kind of like blew us away. We're like, well, so what? is that wall? And eventually we understood, like, that wall was just marketing. There's nothing different about them. And then that changed our whole course of how we were going about all of this. And that was because then all of a sudden, that feeling that we felt there, it mirrored exactly what Allison felt when she got that offer of 70% less. It was, you have been so loyal to this company and they're totally taking advantage of you. They're taking you for granted. And we looked at that thought of that wall in Foot Locker of women's shoes by the major footwear brands. And we said,

if that's marketing, women are coming and buying those shoes, not knowing their men's shoes. They're buying those shoes because they believe they're women's. And it just helped us to see there was a much, much bigger problem. And the bigger problem was that women were being overlooked by the brands they're most loyal to. Yeah. The idea that all shoes are basically designed from men's feet is just weird to me, right? And so this idea of building a shoe around a woman's foot, it's almost shocking to imagine that that was revolutionary, right? I mean, both of you sound like you were shocked when you discovered that.

I mean, I had been a runner for, you know, 18 some years at this time, and I had no idea. And then we learned that there were molds of like women's feet, right? Yeah, we learned that like, you know, as we talked with the last makers, as we went to go and build shoes. And, you know, we said, okay, we have this idea, you know, and what we're hearing is it's not out there. But we want to build a last based on women's feet. And the guy's like, yeah, you want the model AJ 9. whatever, whatever. And I was like, wait, what? You have it? And he was like, a last based on a woman's foot. I was like, yeah. And he's like, yeah, yeah. We've been studying feet for the last hundred years.

Like, yeah, we have a last based on a woman's foot. And, you know, inside I'm like, okay, well, how did we miss this? The whole thing is crumbling. Like, this was a stupid idea. And I was like, well, who uses it? And he was like, nobody. And I was like, why would no one use it? And he was like, you know, probably money. And he's like, you'd be making two shoes instead of just one. And I was like, huh. And we had still never made a shoe yet. So that kind of made sense to me. If I have a business where I make 100 million pairs of shoes, you're burning through molds.

And no one's asking you for a different shoe. Women aren't saying we're unhappy with our shoes, make one for me. Because they think they already have one for them. And they don't have anything to compare it to. They've never put on a shoe made for a woman. So you guys are fully committed to building the spike shoe for Allison to compete in the Olympics. But it seems so complicated and challenging. I mean, you obviously found the designers.

And they were willing to sort of work with you on this. And I don't know, to sort of the understanding that maybe they'd work with you on the project in a bigger way on this shoe brand. Yeah, I think like one of the things that we found were we had more friends. at Nike, then we realized. And when that op-ed came out, I think there were a lot of people who said, thank you so much, because I've had a hard experience and maybe my voice wasn't as loud, or maybe it didn't feel comfortable to speak out. There were a lot of people that really respected what we had done around the op-ed. And as we reached out to our developer, she was former Nike. She reached out to a designer who was also former Nike who then said, yeah, we're in.

They said, you know, we built Michael Johnson spike in 1996, the most iconic spike ever made. You know, we'd love to help. We believe in what you're doing, what you're standing for. And, you know, we worked with Mike Freeton on this spike. And, you know, Mike was one of Bill Bowerman's original protégés. You know, he was there in the shed with the waffle maker, like putting shoes. together. He's this master pattern maker. And he said, oh, this is exactly why we started Nike at the very beginning. It's lost its way, but this is why we started it. And he was like, I would love nothing more than to be a part of it. And so we were able to have the best in the world working on this shoe. And, you know, they did it and definitely delivered on an unbelievably iconic shoe for.

a woman and and the first shoe to win a gold medal by an athlete who owns the brand, too. Wow. So you, last year, I think you closed a series A round, $8 million. Athleta was an investor. And you now have two lines, the SAGE 1 and the SAGE 2. You describe them as lifestyle shoes, so they're not designed necessarily for running. but you're designing a specific running shoe as well right now. Yeah, so our SESH one is lifestyle.

You know, it's great for walking. It can do a workout really well. I mean, I participate in all the wear testing, and I like, I go in on them. So it is possible. But yeah, so excited. Like the shoe that obviously has been, I don't know if I should call it my baby because I actually have a baby, so I probably shouldn't say that. But just, you know, really what I'm passionate. about is this running shoe and really giving women something that they haven't felt before. And not for the woman who is like trying to, you know, break the marathon world record. Because I just don't feel like that is every woman. But, you know, the woman who is doing all the things, I'm really excited to bring this into the world. Yeah. You know, one of the smartest things that, I mean, in some ways, it was the luckiest thing that happened to you that would happen with Nike because one of the smartest decisions you guys

made is from a business perspective was you depersonalized your business. Your business was built around Allison's ability to endorse and to win races. And now you've built a brand using Allison's expertise, Wes, your expertise as runners, and a business that, you know, can live beyond the two of you that you've built. And that's what's most meaningful. Like, I want this to be so much bigger than myself, it is about women deserving better. And that's our mission. Like, that's our purpose. And we are all so aligned by that. And it is. It should go so much further than just myself. And so now as I've transitioned from track and field, like right into this business that I love and believe in, I love that it's centered around that very core message. Yeah. And Wes, when you think about,

I mean, you know, just two years ago, you're like, let's make a shoe. And your sister was like, what? And then how you've got a shoe? And now you've got a brand. So, I mean, tell me about the vision. I mean, obviously this is so much of this is about women and creating products for women. When you think about what SESH will be in 10 years, how would you describe it? Yeah.

10 years from now, I hope that SESH is a brand that that women feel really gets them. a brand that they are really proud of that they know sees them and works really hard to know them. We've talked a lot about how we celebrate women holistically. You know, we have a maternity returns policy where if you're a woman who whose foot changes size while you're pregnant, I can't imagine like all the sudden waking up and my foot's a different size. And now I need to throw out every shoe I ever had. So, you know, for us, we feel like our contribution to you doing the most incredible thing on the face of this planet, we can send you another pair of shoes in your new size. So I hope that, like, we are a brand that can meet women exactly where they are for everything that they need from us.

And if we can do that in footwear, then we don't want to stop there. We want to ask women, what else is broken? What else are you realizing is it made for you? and we want to do our best to look for other things that aren't made for women. And then we want to show up and provide those products for women and make sure that they continue to feel seen and known by us. Wes and Alice and Felix, thank you so much. Thank you. This was incredible. Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab.

Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at How I Built This and mine is at Guy Raz, and on Instagram, I'm at guy.org. If you want to contact the team, our email address is H-I-B-T at ID.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Chris Messini, with editing by John Isabella and research by Lauren Landau Einhorn. Our audio engineer was Alex Dre Wenskis. Our music was composed by Rumpteen Arablewe.

Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Jacey Howard, Liz Metzger, Sam Paulson, Kerry Thompson, and Kira Joaquin. Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.