How I Built This with Guy Raz - Hinge: Justin McLeod

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

In 2010, Justin McLeod was in business school, still trying to get over a bad breakup that had happened years before. Determined to solve his own problem and convinced that the best way to meet people was through friends of friends, he built an app to replicate that experience. Gradually, Hinge grew into a streamlined swiping platform that yielded mixed results: good dates, bad hookups, mismatched swipes, and missed opportunities. Disappointed with this outcome and inspired by a sudden twist in his own love life, Justin redesigned Hinge as an app for finding meaningful relationships, with the tag line "designed to be deleted." Today, Hinge is owned by Match Group and is one of the most popular dating apps in the U.S.How I Built This Summit - information and tickets at:http://summit.npr.orgSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Airbnb.ca.ca. When we did the relaunch, you know, my first instinct was obviously to like go raise money. So I was talking to every VC, but no one will give me money. I mean, I was begging. Yeah. And I had this like one investor that was really holding out for. And I remember the partner at the VC firm called me. And she was like, you know, we've never seen a company that was cool and then went away and then was able to come back. And we just can't do it. Wow. And I was like, Timberlands? From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how the live. The one that got away led Justin McLeod to build the dating app Hinge and how Hinge led him to the love of his life. In 2019, a very distinguished, peer-reviewed academic journal published a paper about human courtships. The study, led by Stanford sociologist Michael Rosenfeld, concluded that most romantic relationships now begin online. Now, if you are, say, under third. this may not come as a huge surprise. Pretty much everyone you know either uses or has used or has at least downloaded some kind of dating app. But to anyone older, say people over 40, this study may come as a shock because most of them met their partners at churches or workplaces or school or a party or through a mutual friend or at a bar.

And sure, you can still meet your future life partner in any of those ways, but the bottom line, online dating now seems like the default, the norm, the path of least resistance. And today, dating apps alone are a $3 billion a year global business. There is an endless array of them. So how does one app stick out from another? Well, when it comes to one particular app, Hinge, the company's tagline is, designed to be deleted, which at first glance sounds like an unpromising business model. But when you think about it, what Hinge is basically trying to tell you is, we're going to help you find the one, and then you won't need us anymore.

Now, like any successful business, Justin McLeod built Hinge on relationships, relationships with users and investors and employees. But I think of all the founders we've had on the show, Justin's personal relationships and one relationship in particular were inextricably linked to the launch and very identity of his brand. Now, I don't want to give too much away here because you have to hear his story to believe it, but in a sense, Justin's own romantic life became a kind of litmus test for the way he hoped hinge users would approach dating. Not just as a frenetic, swipe left, swipe right kind of a game, but a serious, thoughtful, intentional first step towards something lasting and long-term. And the story of how Justin essentially turned his life experience into a brand

is in some ways so dramatic, so implausible that you'd half expect to see it on a TV show or in a movie. But we'll get there. Anyway, Justin grew up in Louisville, Kentucky. He was an only child who attended Catholic school. I think I was a pretty sensitive kid. I was a pretty scrawny kid. I was small. And so even like literally in second grade when all the boys would be playing sports,

I would be like hanging out with the girls. I just like, I just, and if I had to play sports, I would usually fake an injury pretty early so that I could be nursed back to health by the girls. So I think I was, I don't know something about me always. I wasn't like a guy's guy. Yeah. Did that continue into high school?

Like you're kind of hanging out mostly with girls or did that start to change? Well, when I was in seventh grade, I had this girlfriend actually. I had a girlfriend in fifth, sixth, and seventh grade. Her name was Kristen. And I was like totally in love. I mean, I was like done. I was like, I found my person. I'm like, I'm done.

This is it. Yeah. And then one day in. English class, she just turned around in her desk and dumped me. That was it. After three years. That was it. And I was so sad and heartbroken. And also at my school, because it was so small, it was a little bit clicky. And everybody knew. And everyone knew. And I was sort of like kicked out of the cool kids group. And so for seventh and eighth grade, it was like, it was just torture. And I was supposed to go to this high school. It was like a,

It was like a feeder for a big Catholic high school in Louisville. And I just decided, like, I'm going on a different path. I want to get away from these people. And I chose a small private school in Louisville. And let's be honest. Seventh grade, you're not at your most sophisticated in life yet. I mean, this is still puppy love. Yeah, but it was traumatic.

It was traumatic to me. I know that sounds so silly. But I just was so heartbroken. And I was so traumatized by the. experience in like the social isolation that followed, I was just like, I'm never going to let that happen to me again. And I think I just determined that like I was going to be cool. And so I turned into like a completely different person when I entered high school. How so? Well, for one, partying. I mean, I was I was actually, I mean, I definitely had a troublemaker class clown got a lot

the detentions and things in grade school. But it was always kind of like good nature, funny, fun, or like not doing my homework or being late to class. And when I got to high school, there was like a senior there named Billy, who I, like, idolized. And he was like a big drinker and a big partier. And I literally remember the first weekend, before school started, my freshman year,

we went to a field hockey game, which was the It's, sport at my high school. And there was like this big party later that night. And I knew the cool kids were going and I went home. And this is, I mean, this is reflective of who I was at the time. I went home to my mom and dad and I said, there's going to be a party tonight. There's going to be drinking. I want to go. Because I was like really honest. I was like, I was really earnest. And I was like, and I really want to go. And they said absolutely not. And I argued with them for like two and a half hours probably. And finally, my dad drove me to the party and I got dropped off.

And I remember that night I had two beers and two shots and I was floored and like passed out in a pool house. And I woke up the next morning and I just felt like a golden god. I just thought that was the coolest thing. And that began a career at high school of being the center of, of a party scene. Huh. I mean, you must have been good enough at school, right? Because you went to college. You got into college.

I did. Well, I had this other side of me that was still an overachiever. Like, in high school, I got both the most detentions in history and I took the most advanced placement classes. I was the captain of the tennis team. I was the graduation speaker. So I had that whole side. It's not like I was just, like, parting and not doing any work.

And I actually really reveled. I think it was a big part of my identity. to be able to do both to be able to be this like overachieving person, but also at the same time have this trouble making party side. All right. So you go to college, you went to Colgate University, which is a pretty small place in rural, sort of upstate New York. And I guess from what I understand, like you continued your kind of approach to life, I guess. It is fair to say, right? Like a lot of partying there. I think I let the overachiever go to the wayside, and I doubled down on the partying. I remember around March of my freshman year, I woke up one day, and I reflected, and I was like,

I have not gone to bed sober this year. And I actually went in like March or April of my first year. I actually went to go see a drug and alcohol counselor at Colgate. And she was like, you know, I think you might have, a problem with alcohol and drugs. And I think maybe you should stop doing alcohol and drugs. And I, I looked at her and I was like, don't you think that's a bit rash? I just wanted to like come and talk about my feelings. I didn't anticipate having to just stop. And so I didn't go back to see her, except that I then got referred back to her when I got written up three times and one night like a few weeks later. And she was like, I've already met this kid. He needs help.

and that's how I spent my first summer after college and rehab all summer. Wow. It sounds like you were a kid exposed to this early on, and you just a combination of maybe you had a sort of a predisposition to addiction, plus you were young, and you didn't quite know how to handle it or how to moderate your behavior. And so a combination of that and addiction really kind of took over. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.

I think going back to what I was saying before, I was a pretty sensitive kid, and I think I had a lot of emotions, and I think I didn't really know how to express them in a productive way. And when I felt overwhelmed, it just felt the easiest way was to, like, overwhelm the uncomfortable feelings with this better feeling of getting high or drunk. Were your parents aware of it, and if they were, I'm assuming they were worried. Yeah, I think they were worried. I think my mom was especially worried. You know, I was really good at holding it all together, though. And that's what I would always point to. I'd be like, well, look at my grades. I don't have a problem. You know, I have like a 3-7 GPA, and I'm taking 400-level courses my first year. And I hit it well. You know, I wasn't a dummy. I figured out over time how to hide it and how to get away with it. During college, you met somebody who you started to date named Kate. And, and I was a guy. And, you know, I was a guy. And, you know, and I was. And, you. And, you And I guess you kind of, you guys dated basically throughout college, right? I met Kate her first day of her first year. And it was my first day of my second year. So I'd just gotten out of rehab.

And Kate was like the polar opposite. Kate showed up to school, never had a drink, never kissed a boy. So like very different human being than me. And my roommate had gone out in search of, like, finding some girls, like, the very first day of school, right? So he's, like, going out and, like, and he finds these couple girls out on the quad and invites them back to our place. And he's walking up the stairs with them. And there I am, passed out in the stairwell, like, literally on a landing in the stairwell. Kate, I think, was scared.

You never seen a passed out person in her life. And an RA saw us. And Kate got her first. She was in trouble just for being around me. I wasn't even conscious. That was our first interaction. But later that year, she and I had a class together, and we would sit together sometimes, and she developed a little bit of a crush on me.

And one night she came over to my dorm room. We were chatting for a little bit, and she asked me to walk her home, and I walked her home. And we had our first kiss that night, and we were just inseparable after that. But I guess shortly before you graduated from college, you and Kate split. Was that your decision or was that her decision? Well, we had a, we'll say rocky relationship, as you could imagine, trying to be with someone like me and someone like Kate. And we had this really strong personal connection and bond and really loved each other.

I mean, really just were really attracted to one another and like magnets to one another. but it was also tumultuous because I was always going out and getting into trouble. And so we broke up and got back together like six or seven times during college. And at the end, we broke up. She actually transferred. She transferred another school. She transferred to Wellesley. And we got back together one last time.

And I just like, I just couldn't do it. I don't know why. I just let her go. And then I almost immediately regretted it. I wanted to call her like two weeks later and I just said I have to stay out of her life because I just kept interrupting it and messing it up and then leaving again. So I just vowed to like not contact her anymore. All right. So 2006, you graduated college. You guys are split and that's the end of your relationship. And and you obviously had to kind of deal with sobriety. How did you how did you do it? I mean, how are you able to give up drugs and alcohol? On graduation day, I woke up and I'd been out partying the night before. And I woke up at like a stranger's house. And I had to get back home in order to like shower off and meet my parents who were going to come over and meet me.

And I was walking home that morning. And I just thought to myself, it feels like the steering wheel on my life is broken. I just had this innate sense that I was like supposed to go do something big and I held on to this belief that I was like destined for success and I was going to do all these great things. Where did that idea come from, by the way? I don't know, but I always had it. Only child syndrome perhaps, I'm not sure.

But I, you know, I was looking at my life at that point and I was like, God, like, I keep wanting to go in this direction and yet every day, I wake up and go this other direction, and I feel like I do not have control. And it scared me. You know, I hadn't gotten the job that I wanted. I was taking some other random job in D.C. that I didn't really want. I lost the girl. You know, it just, it felt like, didn't seem like I was on track for success.

And I just vowed that morning to, like, stop. And I did. Well, you know, I participated in 12-step programs, and, I like it really threw myself into work and that was that. I mean, in some ways you're really lucky that this happened early to you in your life and you were able to deal with it early in your life. Hugely lucky. I didn't feel lucky.

You know, I'd go to these meetings and these old people would be like, I had, you know, I drank for 50 years and, you know, you're so lucky. And I'd be like, I'd be like, you're so lucky. You got to drink for 50 years. I have to stop when I'm 22. All right. So you graduate and you move to Washington, D.C. And I guess you work in management consulting for a few years. And then you had to business school, right, to Harvard Business School?

I did. Yeah. And your previous experience in a college environment was like super partier and drinker. And I imagine that that was also kind of that drinking helped you meet people, right, a little bit because it's... Totally. And now you're in this new environment where you're... I'm assuming no longer drinking. What was that like?

It was so hard. I mean, there's just a lot of partying, and it's how people connect and how people bond, especially in the early days. And I just felt like a fish out of water. I just felt so I just couldn't be around that. And so I kind of just stayed away. And socially, it was very hard for me to be there.

Really hard. So you are at your Harvard Business School. And one of the advantages of going to business school is It creates a network. And a lot of people go to business school with that intention in mind, finding their future co-founder like Andy Dunn of Bonobos did when he went to Stanford. Or, you know, Jen Hyman of Rent the Runway found her co-founder at Harvard Business School. Was that your intention to find like your co-founder and start a business when you got there? No, because startups wasn't really a thing.

I did have a sense that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. My dad ran his own business when I was growing up. So he was his own boss and he lived this kind of leisurely existence where he really felt in charge of his own destiny. And he really instilled into me like you should go work for yourself. How did you start to think about while you were a business school something connected to relationships or dating? What was the story? I mean, it was so out of left field. I had no idea what I wanted to do and interviews were starting.

You have like most people have jobs by Thanksgiving. and the consulting firms were interviewing, and I applied to all the consulting firms. I got rejected from all of them except McKinsey. So I took the job and signed with McKinsey. And so it's around Thanksgiving, and I've gotten John McKinsey, and I'm actually dating this girl from HPS. And I just couldn't get Kate out of my head. I mean, everyone that I tried to date ever since I'd lost Kay, that was like four years ago

at this point, I would just compare to her. By the way, were you in touch with Kate? No, not at all. I wouldn't, I didn't reach out to her. I just wouldn't. I wanted to. You didn't even, but did you know where she was? I knew that she had graduated and met someone and moved to London with him.

Right. That's all I knew. But this is now four years after you split up and you're still, she's still on your mind. Yeah. It was just such a magical relationship. and I think every relationship I had I would compare and just no one felt like home to me in a way that she did. And I'm a business school, and I can't get Kate out of my head.

And I'm finally like, okay, Justin, it's been four years. You've been sober for four years. You've gotten into Harvard Business School. You've got a job at McKinsey. Do we think that we can reach back out to Kate? Uh-huh. And so I did. I wrote her an email.

What did you say? I said it was kind of like an amends letter. It was kind of like a, you know, I know that I did not act with a lot of kindness or integrity during our relationship. And I don't know how I could ever make it up to you, but I would love to try, basically. And she called me like the next day. And we had this phone conversation. And we actually agreed to meet back in New York. that Christmas.

And I was so excited. And then she called back the next day and she said, I'm sorry, Justin, I just can't. Like, if I see you, I don't know what's going to happen. And I have a life now. And I've just moved in with this guy. We have a flat together in London. And I just can't see you.

And I was totally heartbroken. In the back of my mind, again, I have these, like, these feelings. But I had this feeling like Kate and I were like meant to be together. And we were going to be together. And when that happened, I was like, Oh my God. It's like over. I've messed it up. And I felt like I had like torn the fabric of the universe or something. I mean, I know that sounds grandiose, but I just felt like this is not the way that it's supposed to be. And I like went into this total depression. Like for I think more than a week. I just cried. I like went to go see the therapist. I was like to get any depressants. I just like wanted something. I just felt so horrible. And. And then I'm from that and

Harvard Business School is throwing this Valentine's Day party in February and I back to try to rebound I was like this socially awkward person didn't like to go to parties but there was this one girl in this one class that I sort of thought maybe there was a thing and so I was like really

excited to list her as like a it was like a crush party where you'd like list people that you had a crush on and it was kind of like a last chance dance dynamic and then one day I'm I'm walking to class in early February with the class president, Brett, we're chatting. I was like, oh yeah, and this, you know, dance is coming up, the last chance dance. He's like, yeah, you know what?

We decided that was just too complicated. It's like 1,000 people listing people and all that stuff, so we just scrap that whole thing. And I was like, what? I was like, this is my chance. So I took it upon myself to build this. And computers is something I really threw myself into as a kid. I love to code.

So I decided to, build an application that would allow people in the class to list their friends on Facebook. And if two people matched, it would alert them. So I was going to build that and release it at business school. Wait, it was a Facebook, like a web app, right? Because it was pretty, this is really, yeah, it was a Facebook canvas app. It was like Farmville. I don't remember Farmville. It was like, you could build an application within the Facebook frame. So that's what it was. And the idea was that you would just, people would like sign up for this and then it would match them with other people in the app that they knew? Yeah, it would use the Facebook network.

You know, so you'd log in and you'd have a list of your friends. I mean, this was the Wild West early days before there were a lot of privacy regulations and all that. So, you know, you'd log in, you'd download all their friend list from the API. You would display them their friend list. You'd select the people you have a crush on. You'd go through and select them. And then if they selected you, then it would let you know that it was a mutual match. Was the fact that the day.

dance was canceled. Did that have anything to do with you launching it? Or was that just kind of coincidental? No, I mean, it's what sparked the idea. I don't think I would have, that initial spark would have happened had the dance not been canceled. And I hadn't been walking with Brett that Wednesday afternoon to class. Wow. So this was basically, this idea kind of replaced the dance, because the dance was designed to kind of do the same thing. Exactly. But it's just in real life. Yeah. The original name of this, by the way, was called Secret Agent Cupid, and it was this whole thing of like you're undercover listing your crushes. It was a terrible name. I can't talk about it. But it was the beginning of this whole dynamic of this what's called like the double opt-in of, you know, you list someone and they don't find out unless they list you two or they like you too. But how was this idea connected to anything in your personal life? I mean, I know you were heartbroken because Kate didn't want to meet you and you kind of didn't have a whole lot of success dating. But how was it? Was it? Was this in a sense a way to kind of solve your own problem or was just an idea that kind of came about and seemed fun?

No, it was totally to solve my own problem. I mean, it was very practical. It was very like, there's a girl in this class that I have a crush on that I want to, like, wanted to find a girlfriend. I mean, I always wanted to find. I just, I don't know why, but I've always just been this romantic who just really wanted to find my person and had this belief that when I found my person, like, everything would just be amazing forever. So I built this very practically for me. All right, so you put this up there and you're at Harvard Business School. So presumably it wasn't that hard to get people to notice it because you just told people, hey, check this out, right?

Yeah, it's a small class and a bunch of people hopped on and did it and it led to do a few matches. It didn't lead to much, but it got me thinking. I just thought, why doesn't this exist in the real world? Because at the time, the culture was you'd sort of like creep on your friend's photos on Facebook. You know, you get on Facebook and you go through your friend's photos and you'd see someone kind of like cute in one of their photos that maybe you didn't know. It was like a friend of a friend. And so this idea sparked of like, if there was a dating app that was connected to Facebook, people would use it because it would be so simple. You already have your profile.

It's already done. You already have your photos set up. You have social verification. If you just connected something that was really simple and connected to Facebook, I'll bet young people would use it. As opposed to at the time, all dating websites used, you know, screen names, and you had to sign up and fill out these long profiles and do all the stuff. And it was a lot of friction. And so that excited me.

I was like, there's really, there's something here. I mean, this is still, like, you're still in Boston and at business school, and this is like your last semester there, and you have a job lined up at McKinsey. But what happened to make you start to think that maybe this is something you should pursue after you graduate? Like, were friends at business school, like, finding success? Were people saying, hey, this is awesome. I love this.

Like, was that happening? I was obsessed with this idea. I don't know how to say it. It was like, I mean, the closest analogy I can imagine is, like, being, you're, like, pregnant with this idea, and it is, like, coming out of you one way or another. And that's what it felt like. It was like, I couldn't stop. I couldn't sleep.

I just was, like, thinking about it all the time. how the algorithm would work and about how you would get people to sign up to it. And I just, it was like being possessed. And then I found out that other schools and other people had had this idea. And what happens is a lot of people join, people list their crushes, and then you find out whether you match or not, and then everyone goes away. And then that's when the insight came to me. You know, people mainly just like cruise their friends' photos. And like, what if this were actually not about people you already knew, but it was about your friends of friends. It was, and that's another piece that I think made it really accessible to the next generation. It's like, these aren't

random strangers that you're going to see on this app. You're going to see friends of friends. It's the same idea of like listing a crush, except now it's just people that you have a mutual connection with and you can see some of their photos and then so you list them as a crush. That was like the idea that really got me to be like, I'm not going to take the job at McKinsey, or at least I'm going to push back the start date and see where this goes. graduate in May and you decide to pursue this. And did you need money? I mean, I have to assume you need some money to try and get this off the ground, right? So I got together with a friend. Her name was Francis at business school. She worked at Google. And we each put in $12,000, which was obviously

like a lot of money for us both. But it's what I had. And so we put in this money and we hired a team of engineers down in Argentina to start building a prototype. Argentina, because I'm assuming that was a lot cheaper than doing it in San Francisco. Yeah, exactly. And so I followed her out to San Francisco where she was going to take her job at Google, but sort of half-time work with me on Hinge. And that was all the money you had, $24,000? Yeah, $24,000. That was it. And so that's what we used to pay these developers. And started to develop prototype, and I was sort of the,

product person imagining what the interface was going to look like and she would help talk to the engineers because she she also coded and so I follow her out to Mountain View. I'm sleeping on her floor in Mountain View and eventually she's like this has been fun Justin but you know I'm a stay at Google this isn't really my thing so I left her apartment in Mountain View I bounced around for a little bit around SF and then Berkeley and then I just was like this is not my place. I don't know anyone out here. And so I drove cost country back to D.C. where I had worked before and knew people and had a network. And I decided to start it there on my own. And the idea was to build like a website, a dating website initially? Yeah, initially it was a dating

website. Initially it was this Facebook canvas app. And it was still, I think that was primarily the idea. And it was initially clunky and complex and it would like ask you, like questions about your friends and it had all these bells and whistles features and it was way over complicated. But I was able to, you know, I ran around and I was able to raise a little bit of money. I got into this little incubator in DC called Fortify, raised like a little bit from my little friends and family round of maybe like $100, $150,000. You know, most VCs, of course, wouldn't pay attention to us at all. We, I mean, right, the, we always trying to, you know, you come out of Harvard Business School and you think the way that you start a business is you write a business plan

and you go to Greylock and then they give you $50 million and then you like right right and that is not not how it works so we you know I'd go to these VCs and I'd be like you know we're going to create a dating app it's going to be you know young people are going to use it and then VCs it'd be like match.com like owns this market you know you'll never be able to beat them and but I you know I got a few believers and yeah we just started building this website and and was it still called because originally you called it secret agent cupid was that what you still were calling it at that point in 2011 no no no that was like pretty pretty early on we moved away from like it went through a few iterations in the early days it went from like double o cupid to secret agent cupid to two degrees to three degrees and each of these

names had like trademark issues and i just needed like a placehold older name. And that's where Hinge came from. I was like, I just, it was a Friends of Friends app. And I was like, I just need a name for something that connects to things. Like, it's the thing in the middle. And I was staring at a door. And I was like, I'm going to call it Hinge. And so I just called it Hinge. That's interesting. I did not know that. So, so that's why. Because a Hinge connects the door to the door frame. I was, because when I first heard the name Hinge, I was like, it's sort of a, it's like the, you know, the door swinging out back and forth. Like you're coming in and out of the door. Like one date, two dates, three dates, four.

dates, five dates, like the door on the hinge keeps swinging open and closed. But that's wrong. That is not where hinge comes from. That is not where hinge comes from. It was just, it was like a placeholder name. I honestly don't love the name. I mean, it's kind of stuck now. But it was just, it was a placeholder. I was like, I needed something that connected to things that wasn't already trademarked. And anyone, any founder who's probably tried to name something before and spent lots of time on USPTO.gov, trying to find a name that hasn't been trademarked, especially in like the love and dating space is no joke. Yeah. So you got a little bit of money. You're in Washington, D.C. And did you have an office or were you working out of the accelerator in Washington, D.C.? We worked out of the accelerator. I mean, first I was just working out of my apartment. And then when we got into the accelerator, I started working out of the accelerator.

Got it. You know, there are like four of us. And what was the, I mean, like, I'm trying to think in 2011 when you started to look for potential. investors, and I think it would be a little while before you got real money, I would say to you, what differentiates you from Match.com? Why would somebody use or OKCupid or J-Date or whatever was out there? I don't even know if Tinder was out there yet. What makes you different? And you would say, what? We're going to be stigma-free. There was a lot of stigma around dating websites at the time. I think a lot of times VCs think by analogy. And they're like, that dating, website has stigma, so like dating websites has stigma. Like that's just how it goes. But you have to

look at like the principles underneath that. Like why do dating websites have a stigma? And the stigma was because it was difficult. The stigma was because you would have to spend a lot of time, setting up a profile, answering long questions, paying a lot of money. So no one would do that unless they were really struggling in their dating lives and had to resort to that. And no one wants to admit that. Like no one wants to admit to themselves or certainly to other people that they like struggle in their dating lives and can't meet people. And so the idea was people still want to be able to meet new people. You just have to make it frictionless. You just have to make it easy. If you make it easy and you make a one-click sign on, it won't have stigma. And if it doesn't have stigma, you're going to

unlock the biggest single market, which is people who are 20 to 35 when those people didn't use dating website. So that was the pitch. But how would you match people? I mean, when you were pitching this to investors in 2011 or 2012? Like, why would somebody, why would people use Hinge when they ask you that question? You would say, okay, it's easier, but then you would say, I would say, well, but how do you match people if you're just one click? So that is where the complexity of the original idea came from. We would ask you questions about your friends that we would use for the algorithm. So we'd show you Susie, and we'd say, would you describe her as more athletic or more book smart or more something. And you would answer that. And we'd like build up

these sort of like personality profiles based on quizzes that we would give you about your friends. And so we would show you someone. And then let's say someone liked your friend Susie, tell her to join Hinge. And then you'd tell Susie and then she would join Hinge and then she would start answering questions about her friends and would unlock more people for us to have access to. And it was it was complicated and people were a little confused because they were like, well, I'm joining us to find new people. Why are you asking me questions about my friends? But that is how it worked in the early days.

But basically, originally you were saying there's going to be no friction, no nothing to answer. But you did, ultimately, you did have to have a way to gather information about people, right? Yeah, but it was these fun personality quizzes about your friends as opposed to these long intimate. So it wasn't filling out a bunch of forms. It was just answering questions, like a quiz you would get. Exactly. So what kind of feedback were you getting? I mean, you still didn't have a whole lot of people using it, but was the feedback at least good?

No, not really. It was. People were weirded out by it. People weren't used to it. Like, people didn't understand why you had to answer these questions about your friends. They, you know, people were nice and they'd sort of nod their heads. But, you know, you could tell, like, they didn't really get it. And there's just no way that we're going to be able to sell one.

Maybe at the end of like an hour-long focus group, we would have sold someone on like how it works and why it's great. But, you know, we weren't going to be able to do that with thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of people. When we come back in just a moment, how Justin decides to simplify Hinge and winds up building an app that a few years later, he'll decide to pretty much rebuild from scratch. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR.

I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2012, and Justin is trying to take the friction out of dating by building a site that's meant to help people meet friends of friends. But in order to do that, he's got to raise some cash. I was mainly talking to investors in Washington, D.C. You know, there's a few VC firms there. And the amount of money we were looking for wasn't like Sand Hill Road money. It was just a few hundred thousand dollars. Right.

And I guess you didn't have a whole lot of success with them. No. The wisdom at the time was that there was a saturated market. You know, Match.com and E-Harmony owned it and it would be impossible to break into. Which, you know, I looked at and I'm like, I am in my mid-20s. None of my friends use dating websites. It is not saturated. It's just, it's very clear.

But they were saying, no, no match. A match that comes owned by IAC, right? Yeah, and even if you get big, like, they'll copy you, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, did that in any way discourage you? I mean, did you ever feel like, God, maybe they're right? It frustrated me, but it did not discourage me because I had a strong thesis that they were not dismantling. They were just drawing these other irrelevant analogies. And so a big part of being a great entrepreneur is being hopelessly idealistic but ruthlessly

practical at the same time. You really have to balance these things. And I was being ruthlessly practical. I was like, no, no, no, there isn't a clear market opportunity here. And so I wasn't discouraged because they weren't dismantling the argument. You're a year in now. And it's really not getting much traction in your mind. burning through cash, what kept you, you know, from not just getting depressed or anxious about

the possibility that this would just collapse? Well, I mean, I was definitely depressed and anxious. I, you know, I was worried and I was concerned with the feedback that we were getting. And at a certain point, it became pretty clear that, like, iterations weren't going to get us there. And around Thanksgiving, this is 2012, we have like $25,000 left in the bank of this. point and we probably raised like 150 or something like that. It's pretty clear this isn't going to go anywhere. So I had this kind of crisis moment over Thanksgiving and I called the team and I'm like, let's start over from scratch. This needs to be simple. We got to get rid of all these questions. And by the way, it's 2012. So the world's going mobile. And this needs to be a mobile application.

And that was because by 2012, you yourself, presumably and all your friends were using iPhones? Yeah, it was starting, you know, the App Store was starting to become more popular. There were more companies starting to develop things for the App Store. So it just felt like if we're the dating company of the future, the dating company the future is probably on mobile. And I think, again, the simplification, it dovetailed with the simplification of the interface, which is that we'll just make this thing really simple. And if it's really simple, it should fit on mobile. It's almost like a good forcing function to make it simple

because you can't fit that much on a three and a half inch screen. And so let's just distill it down to like a photo, age, location, a few interests, and just like, yes or no, do you like this person, move to the next person. And if it's a match, we'll let you know. So, all right. So the idea here was to just do a pivot and focus on, building a mobile app. I'm trying to figure out

how you did that, though, because in 2012, building a mobile app was a lot more expensive than it is today. How did you guys do that? We used, at the time, there were these,

I don't want to get too technical, but there was a way to essentially build a website that looked like a mobile app and behaved like a mobile app that you could package as a mobile app. So that is essentially what we did. What was your strategy in terms of getting it out into the world?

So one of my really good friends from Colgate had moved down to D.C. with me. His name was Bennett Richardson. He and I were original roommates when we first moved to D.C. And he was just very plugged into the social scene. And so we just used his email lists and we were just like hustling to get people on and telling them to tell their friends. When we started with just iOS and we just burned. I mean, we just worked all day and all night because we had to be when we were going to run out of money, which was February 7th, 2013-ish. And we took our last $25,000 and we threw a 2,500-person launch party in D.C.

We set the date and we just worked backwards from that. All right. So this party that you're talking about, you're working on the app and I guess you decide we're going to relaunch the company. with a party. We're going to throw a big party, invite everybody we know, and hopefully people would download the app. That was the idea? Well, yeah, because the other issue was the cold start problem. And when you get one or two or three people coming in at a time, you know, in the early days, I would sit and look at the logs and I would watch. Someone would log onto the site. And I would be like, oh my gosh. And I would watch them. You know, they would like like someone and

then pass on someone and then like someone and then they leave and it's like oh i mean that's the trickle that was happening and we were just like we've got to get everyone on at once like no one's going to stick around if there's not a lot of people on this thing so we've got to just like throw this hail mary we've only got 25,000 left we're going to pivot to mobile and we're just going to like get 2,500 people in here they're going to be like the coolest trendiest people in dc and they're all going to see each other downloading the app and so they're going to think it's cool and And they're going to keep using it. This was in February of 2013.

Where was the party? It was on a floor of an office building that was about to be built out as a new incubator that we were moving into. And they hadn't touched it yet. So it was just this big empty floor. And so we just used that. And, I mean, how did you entice 2,500 people to come to the party? Open bar? We had a liquor sponsor who just, I think Tito's vodka just, like, shipped us a bunch of alcohol for free.

We had like a DJ, we had an art exhibition, we had photo booths and a dance party, and everyone had to download the app to get in the door. Now, mind you, we actually didn't have an app almost because we had submitted the app to the app store for approval, and they were not giving approval. And we submitted it like two weeks early. and it is the day before the launch party, and we still have not gotten approval for the app. So we're about to throw this launch party, and we have no app for people to download. I was just like, I was trying to get in contact with people at Apple.

I mean, who cares? Like, we're like nobody, but I'm like trying to reach out to the head of the app store and reaching out to any VC I've ever met and seeing if they have contacts there and just like begging and writing emails trying to get this thing approved. And I remember, like, the night before the launch party, I just was, like, curled up in a ball in the floor of our little office at this incubator crying.

The last two years have been for nothing because we're going to launch this and we're going to have no app. And, you know, we skirted. We had, like, days of cash left at that point. So what happened? I went to bed and I woke up in the morning and the app had been approved. Wow. Yeah. It was nuts. No explanation. Never got an email back. Never know why. But it was approved that morning.

All right. So that night, to get into the door, you had to download the app, which meant that's 2,500 downloads, guaranteed, which is pretty good. How much of an impact did that have? I mean, did those 2,500 people, presumably not all of them, but did a percentage of them start to use it? Yeah, the next day, we had like 500 people log in to use the app who didn't have to. You know, they, like, just came of their own volition and used the app. And then the next day, like, 600 people came. And the next day, like, 800 people came. And we were off to the races. And I know this would eventually change. But initially, let's be honest, I mean, if you want to increase your chances of making money,

there are a few places that, you know, we'll do that. Sex, maybe alcohol, a few others. was a proposition in your mind like or that you guys were kind of let's say selling to to potential customers users was like hey this is a way to poke up was that initially part of the value proposition because I would think that that would make sense I mean that that's what people want no we were we were such a wholesome brand we were friends of friends right so people would equate it to like you know a house party or a wedding and And that was the kind of crowd and the vibe that you'd feel on Hinge, whereas maybe on the other ones, it was a little bit more just like people nearby and random. And so it just felt a little bit more like a club. And so we sort of gained this reputation as the more wholesome, more relationship-oriented app. Right. And that was our niche.

It sounds like you didn't really change your approach or your strategy too much. I mean, you went to mobile, but the value proposition was the same. Like this is a, you know, friends of friends relationship app. What explains, I mean, is it that launch party alone that explains how you really start to acquire users? Well, I mean, the details make the difference for sure. And those are pretty big details. Mobile only simplified interface.

Everyone's on it is very different than clunky interface. No one's on it. So, yeah, I mean, those details definitely made a big difference. So we started in Washington, D.C., and then a waitlist built up in New York City, and then we opened up New York City and threw a launch party there, and then a waitlist built up in San Francisco, and then, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And presumably, now you've got to raise money. Was it now easier? Were investors now more open to giving you money? Oh, my, well, one, we had traction.

Yeah. And two, we had Tinder. Tinder was exploding, and no one could invest in Tinder because it was owned. by IAC. And so the only place that people could put their money as a competitor to Tinder at the time was basically us. Wow. And so we were, we raised like a few million dollars towards the end of 2013 and then we raised a big round of like 14 or 15 million dollars at the end of 2014. And I was turning away millions. I was like, I don't even like, I can't, I can't take anymore. Like we have to close the round, like, I don't even know what I would do with all this money, so we're going to

stop here. All of a sudden, like, there's Tinder, there's Hinge, and there's some others, but you were very different from Tinder, because Tinder was swipe left, swipe right. Not that different. The apps really converged over time. They became similar. Yeah. You know, we were very focused on our competition, and in our competition, we release a feature,

and we released a feature, and, yeah, they became very, very similar in their appearance. And we were still friends of friends, and so we had this different vibe. But practically speaking, the apps were very similar in how they operated. There was an article that came out in Vanity Fair. I think in 2015, it's called like The Dawn of Apocalypse dating or something like. Yeah, the dawn of the dating apocalypse. Right. Yes.

And it's mostly about Tinder, but there's quite a bit in there about Hinge. And there's a paragraph in there, and I'll read it to you. says, Marty, who prefers hinge to Tinder, he says, hinge is my thing, is no slouch at, quote, racking up girls. He says he's slept with 30 to 40 women in the last year. And he says, I sort of play that I could be a boyfriend kind of guy in order to win them over. But then they start wanting me to care more and I just don't. Now, forgive me, I don't want to sound judgmental. But like, this guy just sounds horrible, right?

I mean, when you hear that and you saw that and you saw what. and you saw what you created, did a part of you just like, I don't know. I mean, yeah, it was amazing. You built this amazing app and people were using it. But I don't know, did a part of you kind of feel like, oh, this is not what I wanted to do? A huge part of me felt like that. That article, it was by Nancy Joe Sales. I mean, I went to go meet with Nancy Joe Sales in New York.

And I was like, I want to hear your experience as you put together this article. it was a really big, yeah, it was a pretty big gut punch. And that wasn't it. I mean, there were some other things going on in 2015 where, you know, our growth was starting to slow a little bit. But I do think more importantly, it was like, this just isn't the company that I wanted to build. It's not, it doesn't have the values that I wanted to have. It doesn't have. It's not having the impact that I wanted it to have. We're kind of just this copycat app that has the same interface. with like a small twist, we're just friends of friends. But it was still a, let's just say, quote unquote, like a meat market. Yeah, I mean, again, it was, had a little bit, it just wasn't well designed for what we wanted it to be for, which is long term. I mean, I got, I started this because I wanted a girlfriend. I was sorry to this because I wanted that real connection. And it was not designed for that.

Yeah. And again, like, I, I have to be really careful because, like, I'm older than a lot of people who use these apps or we're using these apps in this article. And so it's like anything that is not familiar, you sort of see it differently. And it's hard for me to talk about it without sounding judgmental. But like, you know, you read these stories like in that article in Vanity Fair. And it's like just stories of young people just talking about, yeah, I've slept with eight people in the last like 10 days. And it's so easy because I think one quote in the article is like, yeah, it's just a numbers game.

Dating is a numbers game. If I went to a bar, I'd have to talk to 100 different girls. With this, I could just swipe all night for my apartment and do better. Yeah. You know, and I thought it was a numbers game too. I had a different objective in mind. But I also believed when I created that version of Hinge that, you know, you just go through enough people. And then when you find the perfect one, everything's easy from there.

And so that is the kind of ethos that I'd. built Hinge around. Let's go back to something we talked about earlier in this interview about Kate, this woman that you dated in college that you loved and wrote to her and almost was to see her in 2010. And then she said, no. And now it's 2015. And there was a New York Times reporter who was a writer who was writing for the

modern love. She was writing an article for the New York Times about Hinge named Deborah Copacan. And so she meets with you in 2015. And you were like, you know, this young. hot shot running Hinge and it's raised all this money and doing really well. So she wants to do a story about you. And what happens during the interview?

Yeah, so rewinding a little bit further, it was like end of 2014. And Deborah writes me this email. I didn't know who she was. She had downloaded Hinge, and the very first person that came up for her she had matched with and started dating and fallen in love with.

and she was like, I have to know how your algorithm works. Like, how the heck did I just download this app, hit a button, someone comes up, and I match, and now we're dating, you know, I want to write a story about you. So she reaches out to me and we go for this like pretty standard founder interview about whatever I was talking about at the time. I could tell it was just kind of like, it was an okay interview. And we were about to finish up, you know, as we were like packing, she said, have you ever been in love? I was like, well, once a long time ago, but I didn't realize it until it was too late.

And she's like, well, tell me the story. And so we sat down. I told her the story of Kate and me and this magical connection we'd had and the sort of twists and turns and the breakup and the drug addiction and alcoholism and me reaching back out and how, in a way, she'd sort of, I realize, especially at that time, she'd inspired Hinge. And I guess it makes sense for a reporter to ask the guy behind Hinge, like, how's your love life? Exactly. And you were not dating anybody at the time? No. Again, there was someone that I was dating on and off during that period, my sort of usual pattern. But no, not really.

And so she shuts off the tape recorder and she says, I've got to tell you a story. And she tells me the story of how she had this, like, amazing. romance when she was younger and really felt this person was the one. She was a war reporter, a photographer actually in Afghanistan, and they were supposed to rendezvous in Paris. It was like this very romantic transcontinental story. And he lost her number. And so they didn't meet up. And then they lost, you know, this was like the 80s and 90s. So they didn't really. Pre-email, pre-cell phones. Yeah, pre-mail, pre-cell phones. And so they didn't connect. And she ended up marrying the next person she dated. And he ended up marrying the next person he dated. And then 20 years later,

he's researching a story, comes across his name, and reaches out to him, and it's like, hey, are you the same so-and-so that stood me up 20 years ago? They ended up coming together, and they met, and I think it just lit her up in a way that she was like, I'm going to leave my marriage. Because this guy that she had, was supposed to meet in Paris, he didn't stand her up. They just both, he lost her address, and she lost 20 years. Yeah. Exactly. And so she left. And so she left. and downloaded Hinge and then had met this guy. And if it sounds familiar to anybody, it's because it was written in a modern love article by Deborah Copacan.

She wrote this part of this story in this article. But anyway, so she tells you this story. And she said, listen, don't get me wrong. I don't regret my life. I love my kids. But you still have a chance to be with the one. Wow. And I was like,

lady, nice to meet you, you're a little nuts. It's been eight years since I've seen Kate at this point. She's engaged to be married as far as I know. She still lives on another continent. It's too late. And she's like, you won't know until you try. And early February, we were going to be throwing a launch party in London. and so about a week before the launch party, I happened to run into Kate's best friend from Wellesley and we're chatting. And she's like, I think you should reach out to Kate. You know, at this point, by the way,

I had written Kate an email every year on her birthday after she told me no. And some of these emails would be like, you know, I'm over it, I hope we can be friends, no response. I think my last one in like 2013 had been something like, I'll come over with an engagement ring, please. It was, you know, it like ranged depending upon the year and how I was feeling. Wow.

And after that one, you know, she had like defriended me on Facebook. And, you know, it was like pretty clear that like that had sent her. You know, that was it. So after that, I'd let it go. And I was headed over to London and I'm like, you know what? Whatever. Like, I'm just going to send one last email. And so I composed a really short note.

It just said, hey, going to be over in London. Weird to think I'm never going to see you again. Would love 15 minutes just to say hi and goodbye. And I woke up the next morning to a response. Saying, sure, I'll see you in London. No. Saying you're a terrible stalker. I don't live in London anymore.

I live in Switzerland. My fiancé is not a huge fan of yours. But I'm willing to chat, so he'll be away this weekend if you wanted to. just like hop on the phone. I said, great. And then I went to the airport and I bought a ticket to Switzerland and I flew to Zurich. And the next morning, which is a Friday, she thought she was like in another time zone and she was like, I'm awake, like whenever you want to chat, we can chat. And I said, great, because I'm going through customs in Zurich right now. Wow. You know, I flew over there, definitely having Deborah, having inspired me to do something, like, big.

But I have to admit that it had been eight years. I had changed a lot. I mean, I'd gotten sober. I'd been to HBS. I'd like started a company. You know, it was like a lot had happened since I'd seen her. I assumed a lot had happened for her. And, you know, a pretty big piece of me thought we would maybe see each other and then laugh this off and, you know, bring some closure to the whole thing and I could move on, she could move on. So we met in a cafe in Zurich, and five minutes in, I was like, I don't know what I am doing without this girl. The conversation started off and we obviously, there was a connection still there and she was like, well, obviously I'm not calling off my wedding. I'm getting married in a month. 400 people coming from

five continents. She's getting married in a month. Yeah. Invitation sent, planes booked and she's like, well, obviously, I'm not calling off the wedding, but, you know, we should stay in touch. And then, you know, halfway through the conversation, it was like, well, if I were going to call off a wedding. And we sat there for like eight hours straight. I don't even think we even got up to get a coffee. And then by the end of our like eight-hour chat, she was like, I think I'm going to call off the wedding. I mean, wow. I mean, it's, I have so many feelings and thoughts about it because obviously this was meant to be the two of you.

But like, wow, I mean, that's a lot, right? I mean, she was making, both of you guys were making a huge decision to, that was going to be really hurtful and painful to somebody. But clearly, this person she was going to marry was not the right match for her. But still, like, she was a month away from getting married. And I'm assuming that when she decided to call off the wedding, she also kind of implicitly decided that she also kind of implicitly decided that, she was going to move to New York, to be with you. That's right. Yeah, I moved from a big chalet in the Alps to my 300 square foot studio apartment in Manhattan.

And this will lead us back to the discussion about Hinge, which is that, you know, here I am thinking, like, oh, my God, like, I got the person. The one, the one I've been dreaming about all this time. You know, and then I flew to London and we did the launch party and then I flew back to the States and then she met me back in the States. and she moved in, and it was amazing for like two months. And then, you know, we're two people living together in a 300 square foot apartment, and we're like figuring each other out, and it's not perfect. All the stuff that I wanted to run from, because I did. I mean, there's a piece in me, like two or three months in that was like, ooh, like,

should I have done that? You know, but there was like, but she'd given up a whole life. she'd come back and so I'm like yeah I'm going to stick it out and we just worked it out together one step at a time and I realized that it's not a volume game love isn't about trying to go through enough people until you find your perfect puzzle piece and then everything's smooth sailing love is about the way you approach it it's about vulnerability it's about connection you don't find the one you create the one that completely completely overhauled my approach to how I thought dating apps should work.

But this is the thing. Again, like now, the thing that you had built was, let's say, lots of people were using it in ways that didn't lead to that. It was more like a hookup factory. And again, please, anybody listening, I am not judging you. I am not being judgmental. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. That's perfectly fine if that's what you're looking for. but Justin, that's not what you wanted to build.

You didn't want to build a hookup app. That's right. But you were kind of pushed into that direction just because of the forces of, you know, the economy and of what people wanted and what investors wanted you to do and what you thought was going to work. It was a lot of pressure running that company at that time. And we were really trying to keep up with the competition.

And the natural thing to do is to, like, be obsessed with your competition and look at what they're releasing, and then they'd release a feature and be like, oh, we have to have that feature. And our users would be like, why don't you have this feature? And so then we would want to, like, copy what they were doing. And we were always a step behind

because we were not as well funded and not as experienced. So, I mean, not only was it not alone with the values, it just wasn't going to succeed. Like, it was just not that different or interesting of a product. And so, yeah, on both fronts, I was frustrated. And I remember, It was around Thanksgiving that year. It was around 2015.

I was headed home for Thanksgiving. I was about to fly back home to Kentucky. And I had lunch right before I left with Katie Hunt, who was our chief brand officer. And she and I sat down, and I was just like, Katie, like, I just want to tear this whole thing down and start over. Like, I'm just like done. And she looked at me and she was just like, what's stopping you?

And I paused, and I was like, nothing is stopping me. What is stopping me? When we come back in just a moment, how the effort to relaunch the app would lead to a dramatic drop in users. And how an 11th hour investment from a one-time competitor would help revive the brand. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the fall of 2015, and inspired by his rekindled relationship with Kate, Justin decides once again to completely rebuild Hinge.

We're going to rip down this whole thing. Bigger deal now. We're not four people anymore. We're 30. And we don't have 25,000 in the bank. We've got like 10 million. And I called up my C.O. Sam, talked to Katie. I got them rallied around this idea that what we built is not going to succeed,

and we have to rip it down, start over from scratch. And by the way, there's a market opportunity. So now it had been, what, three or four years since the dating apps had launched. A lot of those people who are like 22, 23, when they came out, are now like 26, 27, 28, and they're looking for something more serious. So let's start over. and let's build the app that's going to be accessible to young people and have a cool brand, but is really designed to get people into relationships and off the app.

And by the way, it's a great word of mouth. Like, if people always ask, how did you meet? And if we're the best at getting people who are in relationships, we're the best at that, and people will tell their friends, and as long as they're single people in the world, we'll do great. Right. And, like, we're not thinking about competitors anymore. I don't want to talk about it.

I don't want anyone to have those apps on their phone for competitor research. That was the biggest decision we made. And we said, we're going to actually measure whether people are going out on great dates or not. We're still the only app that asks whether you went on a date and whether it was good. And that is our North Star metric, period. How are you guys going to make money? How were you, you know, I mean, presumably charging a fee to join, a monthly fee, a per dating fee? How did it work?

Well, that was one of the massive mistakes we made when we launched. So we had this thesis that the serious dating websites are all what are called hard paywall businesses, meaning that in order to engage pretty much at all, you have to pay a monthly fee. But it's usually pretty expensive. It's like $39.99 or $49.99 a month. Are you talking about the big sites like eHarmony and Match.com and stuff like that? Yes, that's right. So we were like, we're going to create a hard paywall app, but it's going to have a millennial-sized price of $9.99 a month.

And that gave you, like, basically unlimited. No, just access to the platform. Gotcha. I mean, you know, you couldn't even, like, we're just like, we're the intention platform. If you're not willing to pay $10 a month, then, like, you know, go somewhere else. Right. And the other apps, by the way, were free, right? And the other apps were free.

Yeah. But we had, we were very idealistic and we're like, people will pay. pay, like, that'll be the model. That was a totally wrong thesis. So people were not willing to pay. And then we had to, like, give people free trials. And then we had to, and then by the time, it was like, it was such a mess. Because the market, the market for dating apps, it's like sort of like podcasts. Like, people are used to free dating apps. All of a sudden, you're coming on saying you to pay for it. People are like, no, I'll just go on this other dating app. Yeah. And even more important than on podcasts, like, there's network effects. So if there's not a

lot of people on it, then people don't find it valuable to be, you know, loses its value anyway. And you figured this out because it was like crickets, like no one was paying for this? Yeah, we got like, you know, a few hundred thousand people to sign up, but then no one really would, like when they hit the paywall, everyone was just kind of bouncing. So, so we started giving away free trials, like, oh, if you've had a hinge account before, you can have the first three months free. We thought like if we could just get the engine going, then like the new people would come in and pay. Because before that, it was free, totally free. before you kind of relaunched it?

Before that, it was totally free. We'd never made money up until that point. But now you needed to make money. You had real investors and real money behind you. Yes, that's right. So what did you, had you salvage it? I mean, given that you, this sounds like it was kind of a disastrous relaunch in that sense, even if the other features were great, people weren't buying it.

What did you do? Yeah, that was, it was pretty rough relaunch. And that whole period of time was tough, by the way. I felt like Moses leading people around the desert. Like we didn't know where. Like we were testing things. And, you know, we're just like didn't know is like the best thing is the only thing to have the swipe feature. Is that the only way that an app can work?

Is this like, what are we going to do that's going to be really any different that's going to be better than that? And we did figure that out, by the way. And we did come up with a very different way for people to interact that had very significant ramifications on how people behave on the dating app. Tell me more about that. Well, one of the biggest changes that we made is we did get rid of the swipe feature. And we had people fill out longer profiles, still relatively simple, but you had to add six photos and you had to add three prompts, which are responses to short questions that are designed to help you get into better conversation.

But more importantly, is when you like someone on Hinge, first of all, you like something about them. You have to choose something like one of their prompts or one of their photos, and you can comment on it and you send that like. And that seems subtle and maybe not that big a deal, but it has a pretty dramatic effect on people's behavior. They are way more selective and way more thoughtful, because when you're not just throwing people to the left and to the right,

you actually have to think about what you want to like about them, what you want to say. It just makes people way more thoughtful and selective. And when you're way more thoughtful and selective, about who you like are data is way better about learning your tastes. And if someone liked you, we would just notify you and tell you that someone so liked you and they liked this thing about you so that there wasn't a strategy of just liking people to see if they liked you back. A lot of people will use the swipe feature and they'll just like, like, like, like, like, and they'll just see who matches

with them. And then they kind of figure it out from there, which creates a lot of engagement, but it's a lot of noise. And it frustrates people because a lot of those matches don't go anywhere. And so when you can actually distill it down, and it's not as engaging, it's not as noisy, but it's a lot more substantive. There's a lot more signal there for people to latch on to. So that was a very fundamental change that we made. So you sort of offer up a free version, right, like a freemium model, which a lot of these sites have. And basically, users can go back to using it for free, but if they want more features, there's like a tiered system. How does it work?

Yeah. So now you pay for certain upgraded features like advanced preferences or unlimited likes. And I have to assume it's a tough business, right? I mean, there are lots and lots of options, right? And so a big part of differentiating yourself is through the branding, like what you represent. And now you guys were kind of really focused on being the relationship app. like, okay, Tinder's to the hookup app and Bumbles, you know, women initiate, but we're the relationship app. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, that was actually, I think, our original tagline, but yes, it was very much branding around. If you're looking to get off-dating apps, this is the place for you. Let's talk about this tagline that you guys eventually settled on because it's, it is, it's hinge designed to be deleted, which I love. Yeah. Your tagline now is, hey, download us, but really we want you to delete us. Because if you succeed on Hinge, you won't need us anymore. That's exactly right. And I mean, that's how a dating app should be.

And by the way, designed to be deleted has two dimensions to it. One dimension is we are the experts in getting you into a relationship. We get this better than anyone. We research it. We spend all our time looking at how users behave and how do we get them on better dates and that our whole company's organized around that but there's also an element of digital wellness to it as well which is that we don't want you spending all day on our app like we don't want you stuck playing a game on hinge and and this really grew out of my experience with

addiction and and i you know i don't use social media i don't i don't use instagram i don't I don't really have an Instagram account or a Facebook account. I don't spend any time on it. Because it's, you know, I didn't escape drug and alcohol addiction, just become a slave to my phone. But do you think, I mean, given, you know, given the fact that you relaunched a few times and your tagline is, you know, we want to be deleted,

do you really think that Hinge is no longer the place or a place for someone who just wants a casual hookup? Like, how are you able to now change the behavior of people who went on the app if in 2015, in Vanity Fair, some guy was saying, yeah, I love Hinge. I've slept with 30 to 40 people in the last five months. Like, how do you change that person's behavior with the relaunch? It's just too difficult if you're looking for a hookup. It just requires too much effort. You asked about the, you know, how do you, aren't you going to still have people like that person in the Vanity Fair

article using your app? And what we find is that when you have to answer all these prompts and have to send, you know, like a piece of content. Like, if all you're looking for is a hookup, like, this is way too much effort to do that. And so that's, I think, the difference. You know, we lose more than 20% of our users during the sign-up process. On other, those other apps, you hit one button and you're in and you're swiping and you're going. So, again, if you were like talking to a Silicon Valley social media investor, they'd be like,

oh, my God, you can't lose 25% of your, 20% of your sign-outs? Like, are you crazy? and for us it's a feature, not a buck. You know, it's like, yeah, you have to, finding a relationship is hard. If you're not willing to put in the effort to fill out this profile and answer some prompts, and then, you know, you're probably not the, it's not the right service for you. Like, we just want people who want meaningful relationships, full stop, period. Like, we just want to get amazing at that.

Okay, so when you did go ahead and do the relaunch, of Hinge in 2016, how did it get, like, how was it received? Well, I mean, it was not a breakout success, like when we did the relaunch in 2013. We got off to a rocky start, but the numbers started to look really interesting and really promising. And so, you know, my first instinct was obviously to, like, keep this thing going and co-raise money. So I was back out in the fundraising game, flying all over the country, talking to Every VC, and now I could get in the door of anywhere, right? I mean, any VC firm would at least take my meeting.

Yeah. But no one would give me money. So, I mean, it was, I mean, I was begging. I mean, I was offering valuations that are embarrassingly low. Even your existing investors were getting coal feet? My existing investors were willing to rally to put together a few million dollars. but a few million dollars is not going to get us to where we needed to go. So I really wanted to raise a bigger round.

And I tease that. And I said, you know, our existing investors will put like three or four, but I need five to ten more at least. Yeah. And I just, I mean, I went everywhere trying to make this deal happen. I talked to everyone. I mean, it's amazing because you had already had a record of success. You had launched this thing.

You defied the skeptics. by even putting this out into the world, you had achieved quite a bit of success with it. You know, millions of people had used it. And then, and still, you had a hard time raising more money. Well, we made a decision when we decided to do the reboot that we were just going to not touch the existing app. You know, this is a big debate.

Like, do we keep the app like on the rails and keep adding updates and kind of just keep it going? Or do we just let it go completely and divert all of it. our focus to this new thing, and we decided to do the latter. And so meanwhile, the app had started to go down and the user numbers were going down because we just weren't putting any effort into it at all. Where were you putting the effort in? Into developing the new hinge. I got you. And why you were developing that, you weren't even updating the app at all. No. So it sat there stale for almost a year. Right. And I had this like one investor that was really holding out for

and I really thought we were going to get across the line. And I remember the partner at the VC firm called me, and she was like, you know, we just can't get our heads around. We've never seen a company that was cool and then went away and then was able to come back. And we just can't do it. And I was like, Timberlands? That's a great, actually.

You're totally right. K-Swiss? Yeah, exactly. It's just like fashion brands are not the same as apps. And I said, fair point. But our numbers were actually starting to look really interesting. And if you had the right eye for it, you knew that there was something here with the new version of Hinge. Yeah.

You know, on the old version of Hinge, the biggest thing, just to give you a sense, you had to send a thousand likes in order to get to a date. And on the new version of Hinge, it was 50. So, a thousand to 50, 20 times more effective at getting people out on a date. So, I mean, I think finally in 2018, you guys did get an investment, a pretty big one, which was a majority stake in the company from Match Group, which is Match.com, owns Tinder. So former competitors, and then in 2019, they fully acquired him. There are lots of reasons to get acquired. I mean, obviously, you've worked on this for many years, and it's a chance to kind of get a payout and to take a breather and not to worry about having to raise money every year or every few months.

And it takes – and now you've got a bunch of resources behind you. Are all those reasons why you agreed to the acquisition? You know, funny enough, the way that the relationship with Match Group started is I tried to poach. their head of business development to come run finance at Hinge. I mean, that's the level of audacity that I had. We had like three months of money in the bank, and I'm trying to like steal their head of finance to come like run the finance at Hinge. And he very quickly turned the conversation around and was like,

have you thought about, you know, maybe we can partner with you? And that started a conversation. And so the more time I spent around that team, the more I realized that the combination I think of our different perspective on the hinge side with their wisdom, financial backing. It was going to be a really good success. And there's a reason, I think, you know, you see that the startups that have really taken off and grown in the dating space were all started in-house. Yeah, they were all, I mean, Tinder was started within IAC, right? And Match was owned by IAC, and they had huge resources and marketing dollars.

and it's not surprising that they exploded in growth. That's right. And so it sounds like the calculation you made was these guys have a lot of resources. It's like it's like Procter & Gamble. It's like you have a product and Procter & Gamble comes and says, look, we want to acquire you and we have all this research money and marketing dollars and could be a really attractive idea to go and work for them. And scary at the same time, right?

I mean, for us, like, you know, Tinder was the enemy. Right. So, like, you know, it was like, it was kind of a lot to get your head around that. And at this point, I had friends who'd sold their companies and had agreements. And it, like, almost never works out. Yeah. Either the company goes sideways or the company goes up, but then they, the relationship doesn't work with the founder and they leave. And so I was really conscious of that, obviously.

So it was scary. But ultimately, I just thought I wanted to do what's best for Hinge. the company and I think this is it. What did that allow you to do once you were acquired by match? Did that, I mean, and then you sort of became more comfortable with this idea that you could still run the company the way you wanted it. Does it take some of the stress out of Hinge knowing that, you know, the money is there, you're not, you don't have to worry about firing people or going on begging for money.

Does it kind of de-stress you a little bit? Well, you're trading some stresses for new stresses. Right. But it's like a new relationship, you know? Yeah. It's just like with Kate and me and you like hop into, you know, you're now living together and you figure each other out. And just like that relationship, I was really, really committed to making this one work. And they were committed to making it work too.

And we figured each other out. And we have a pretty incredible relationship today. That was 2019. And I think the relationship with Match, really enabled you guys to grow and to scale more. And then comes 2020, which I imagine at the beginning of the pandemic, you must have thought, oof, we're in big trouble. Nobody's going to be going out on dates. Is that initially did you see a steep decline in users? Yeah, it's been really volatile. You know, we planned in 2019. Our growth was really incredible. And we planned a very big,

2020. You know, we're going to grow the team. We're going to like double the size of the team. We're going to do all the stuff. And the pandemic had in. I think initially, you know, everything went into lockdown. It was cold outside. And so we definitely saw some shakiness in the business, to say the least. But then as things started to stabilize and it started to warm up outside, it actually like completely turned the other direction. Yeah. Because now people can't meet at house parties and weddings and bars and yoga classes and gyms and all the other places that theoretically they would have met. Now we're the only game in town. And I also think this period of time has been people have been rethinking their dating lives and rethinking their lives in

general. And I think people have become more thoughtful and more serious during this time about their intent and what they're looking for. And so then when it started to warm up and the number stabilized, then it was a huge boon to. the business. Were there things that you guys features that you introduced during the pandemic that made it easier, like, that, you know, made it easier for people to connect virtually? The biggest shift that we saw was a shift to people willing to try video dates because people wanted to, like, spend a little bit more time getting to know you and decide whether it's really worth, you know, risking getting COVID to meet up. And so video dating, like, more than half of our

users now have gone on a video date. And so that was something that seemed like a pretty clear thing to build into the app. Yeah. And also just less risky, right? You're just on a video call with somebody and if it's weird or you're just not connecting, then, you know, that's it. You didn't have to leave your room. That's right. And that's why I think, you know, when we talk to our users who have tried it, most of them say that they want to continue to do it even after the pandemic, because it just makes a ton of sense. I mean, it really is like doing a quick 15-minute screen before you go spend an entire evening

and spend money and energy to go meet up with someone, I think will actually make this a much, much better experience if that becomes part of it. Yeah. This may be a hard question for your answer, but I'll ask anyway. You're still pretty young. You're in your 30s.

I think you're mid to late 30s. And you started this app, which is a pretty big deal. It's a major dating app. and now fully acquired by Match and you work for Match. You're an employee. So you're the CEO, but presumably, you know, like any employee, if they wanted to find a new one, they could. And if you wanted to move on, you could. And probably eventually you will. And maybe start something new. Can you, is that what you imagine doing? Like, do you feel like you've got another business in you? I don't know the answer to that question. And

believe it or not, I actually don't think about it that much. I have so much on my plate at Hinge right now. I think the opportunity is so great. I'm actually very happy. And, you know, I worked so hard to build this culture and this company and this service and this brand. I mean, it is so difficult. I am so invested. I mean, this is still my baby.

And so doing that over again sounds now that I know how hard it is. You know, when I started Hinge, I just thought, like, oh, yeah, this is a $2 billion company. This should take about a couple of years. We'll sell it. And, you know, like, if I had any idea how, like, many tears I would shed and how many nights, I just, like, I don't know if I would have started it. And so it's hard to imagine that again. And I think everyone finds their sweet spot. And I think some people are really good at the beginning and the starting and the ideation and pulling the resources together

and getting something off the ground. And then some people are good at the scaling and some people are good at the operating. And I've really enjoyed each part of the journey and I enjoy the challenge of the constant shift. And so I'm still very much on that trajectory. Like I love this challenge of scaling from 50 to 150 employees remotely while still trying to innovate and grow internationally.

I mean, that's a lot of intrigue for me. And I don't need more. When you think about, Jess, when you think about your story, everything that's happened and all the ups and downs and what you've come to. How much do you attribute to, you know, your hard work and your skill and talent and how much do you attribute to luck? I feel pretty lucky. I mean, if you go through my story and going through it today has really reminded me of that. There are so many serendipitous twists and turns that had they not happened,

it's hard to imagine I would be here. I would be somewhere, maybe. there are a lot of really lucky things that happened to me. There are a lot of, like, really tough things that happened along the way. I mean, having the company fail multiple times, like drug addiction, alcoholism, like there's all these, like, really tough things. And when I look back, I think the hardest things, losing the girl, drug and alcohol addiction, the company failing, you know, ended up being my biggest blessings. If those things hadn't happened, I certainly wouldn't be here today either.

And if there is skill involved, I think it's how we roll with the bad things that happen. You know, do we resist it and fight it and judge it and get resentful about it? Or do we lean into it, learn from it, and keep showing up the next day? But that said, I feel unbelievably lucky. I choose to feel lucky. That's Justin McLeod. founder and CEO of Hinge. And if you were wondering, yes, he and Kate are actually married.

And back in the fall of 2019, they had a baby, a boy named Oliver. And by the way, if you think their story sounds like a movie, well, it kind of is because it became the inspiration for an episode of the Amazon Prime series, Modern Love, which Justin found out was being made literally on the last day of filming. And so I call Kate and I'm like, so I'm never going to believe this. But someone's filming a show about our lives, like down the street. And so Kate and I like hop in the car and we like go to the location and we get out. There's like 150 people there and they're filming the 2013 Hinge launch party.

And Dev Patel is up on stage. And they put Kate and me in his extras. So you're hanging out with like Dev and Catherine Key? I have like a photo with them from from okay but Deb doesn't call me that often Hey thanks so much for listening to the show this week if you are not a subscriber please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts if you want to write to us our email address is hibt at npr.org if you want to follow us on Twitter we're at how I built this or me at guy ross and on Instagram I'm at guy dot ross or at

How I Built This NPR. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Rumtine Arablui. Thanks also to Liz Metzger, Farah Safari, Darith Gales, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Janet Ujung-Lee. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR.