How I Built This with Guy Raz - How I Built Resilience: Live with Tony Xu and Marcia Kilgore

Episode Date: May 21, 2020

When Tony Xu started DoorDash in 2013, he wanted to help local restaurants stay afloat by introducing them to online delivery. Today, his quest remains the same, now that DoorDash has become an essential business during the COVID-19 pandemic. Marcia Kilgore's footwear brand, FitFlop, is experiencing a downturn in sales as retail stores stay closed. However, Beauty Pie – her direct-to-consumer cosmetics brand – is thriving as the beauty industry goes digital. These conversations are excerpts from our How I Built Resilience series, where Guy talks online with founders and entrepreneurs about how they're navigating these turbulent times.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I talk to entrepreneurs all the time who are looking for a way to upgrade their digital footprint. Well, whether you're just starting out or you're scaling your business, Squarespace is the easiest way to build a great website that stands out. It's an all-in-one website platform that gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your products, and get paid. Anyone can use Squarespace's cutting-edge design tools to build an online presence that truly reflects what makes your business special.

There are templates, intuitive drag-and-drop editing, and even an AI-enhanced website builder. Then, Squarespace's built-in analytics tools help you make smarter business decisions. Review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement, and track revenue all in one place. Looking to grow your business, Squarespace even offers fast, easy business financing

through Squarespace capital. Go to Squarespace.com slash built for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code built to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Loans issued by Celtic Bank and serviced by Stripe, all loans subject to credit approval. This show is in partnership with Airbnb. This past summer, I took my family to Vienna, and it was incredible. We spent our days wandering the old streets, stopping for coffee and pastries, visiting museums, and just soaking up the history of one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And one of the things that made the trip so special was the home we booked on Airbnb. It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city,

made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hey, welcome to how I built this resilience edition. I'm Guy Raz. Each week, I'm doing live video conversations with founders and entrepreneurs about how they're building resilience into their businesses right now. And you can join those live conversations at new, Eastern Wednesdays and Fridays at our Facebook page. By the way, if you're looking for our regular

episodes, we're still dropping new ones every Monday, so check those out. Today, I'm bringing you two conversations later on. We'll hear from Marcia Kilgore, the founder of too many businesses to name, including Fitflop, Beauty Pie, and Bliss. But first, we're going to hear from Tony Shue, the founder of DoorDash. We originally featured Tony and DoorDash on the podcast back in November 2018, so check out that episode if you want to hear his backstory. Today, DoorDash makes up about 35% of the food delivery market in the U.S. And since the crisis, DoorDash has seen a spike in their business, as more and more struggling restaurants are trying online delivery to stay afloat.

Tony joined me from his home in the Bay Area. And right now, he says, DoorDash is seeing a spike in new drivers signing up. All right, so let's start talking about the business here, right? We had a whole week where we talked to chefs and restaurateurs about that. that industry and that industry was kind of like the canary in the coal mine because they were the first to be hit really, really hard along with the airline industry. What has that meant for DoorDash? Because in the one hand, I'm assuming there's been a surge in demand, but also a drop in options and in restaurants that are able to operate. So tell me, give me a sense of what's going on.

Yeah, I think like you said, it certainly started as a public health crisis, you know, globally. And when it came to the United States, we were still in the middle of that health crisis. And very quickly, it emerged into a simultaneous economic crisis. And I think, like you said, a lot of industries have been hit very, very hard. Travel is one. Services, I think, is another. And local retail is a third. And restaurant owners, you know, I think back to when I was a kid as a dishwasher in my mom's

restaurant, in the three decades, I've been observing the restaurant industry. I don't think I've ever seen something like this where business effectively just halted to a stop. I do think, though, some restaurants are actually doing okay. I know there's lots of heartbreaking stories where restaurants having to close, lots of furloughs, and those stories are true. In the meanwhile, because governments have allowed restaurants to keep their kitchens open, deliveries have gone up, you know, especially after consumers got used to the idea that the shelter in place and some of these other announcements that they would be in place for a while, that they got used to their old ways of life. They still seek that convenience. They still seek that convenience.

still want to support their local business. They recognize maybe they can't always do that walking inside stores, however they can get delivery. And so yes, that that is definitely going up. And some businesses, they're actually doing pretty well in this time of year for them, just making sure that they can even have enough money to pay things like rent is a pretty big deal. I would say the vast majority of businesses can actually do that. There are even restaurants who have been doing a lot of off-premise and takeout prior to this pandemic who are actually seen success. You know, They're actually doing okay. So it is a very, very difficult time. But delivery and takeout, I think, have now become essential services that have kept a lot of these businesses alive. Are you finding restaurants that are pivoting right now that are actually saying, you know what, we just got to focus on just getting food out the door and not worry about presentation so much?

Restaurants that are doing well in surviving this pandemic were ones that recognized that even prior to this pandemic, it wasn't that, you know, know, every meal occasion was happening inside their walls. So they were starting to invest, or they had already invested in, you know, their takeout or their off-premise business. And those businesses are actually doing pretty well. And they're able to pay off their rents. You know, some of them are starting to think about reopening their stores, especially given, you know, some of the progress we've made on the health front. The second point I would make is there are businesses that are starting to change how they do business. I see Michelin Star restaurants changing their menus, which used to be exclusively for in-store, very high-end kinds of experiences.

And they're making now more approachable, accessible, family meals that can really service both comfort and as a way for them to keep their business up and running during this period of time. Tony, you are, I mean, most businesses in America are losing right now because of the economic situation. And there are some businesses that are actually doing very well. We had Stuart Butterfield from Slack on last week, and that is a business that is a quote-unquote winner. Zoom is another example. DoorDash is another example. It's sort of weird, right? Because you're seeing this economic crisis play out in real time, but your business is actually doing well.

So I just want to get a sense from you on sort of how you kind of internalize that. And also what you think your responsibility is as a quote-unquote winner in this very unusual situation. To me, I think it means different things. We started this company to empower local economies. And when I think of that, I think of all the audiences that we serve. You know, for these restaurants, as you mentioned, and for other types of merchants now that we serve. So even in addition to restaurants, it's making sure that we can keep their businesses afloat. And that's actually why we invest tens of millions of dollars in marketing for them so that they can get as close as they can to the sales that they once were seeing before this pandemic in the forms of marketing.

For drivers, it's making sure that they're safe, defaulting to no contact deliveries, making sure that there's a holistic program to protect them. So it starts with prevention, so masks, hand sanitizers, and gloves, making sure that they can get access to diagnostics, so in the form of telemedicine at affordable rates, making sure that heaven forbid if any of them were impacted by COVID-19, that they would have financial assistance. And then, you know, finally for consumers, making sure that we can speed up some of the things that maybe we had planned for later years now, because bring things like essentials, like perjury items or convenience items, these services are no longer, you know,

convenient services. Sometimes they really are essential services to some of the most vulnerable populations like the elderly. You know, the final one that we've, you know, elevated and accelerated is really the community, giving free deliveries to all health care workers nationwide, you know, to the largest hospital systems, hundreds of thousands of health care workers daily. And then finally, you know, bring meals to school children who, you know, sadly can't get access to those lunches anymore because schools are closed. And so to me, the responsibility has always been there. It's just pronounced right now. And, you know, from a company perspective, we take that extremely seriously. And we're pulling forward a lot of the

initiatives that we have planned for later years. Tony, what do you say to people who are skipping tips right now? I mean, I don't want to shame anybody and it's tough time and people are tight, you know, right now times are tough for so many people. But what do you think about somebody who doesn't tip? Well, I recommend people to give when they can. And, you know, what I would say is tips certainly help. At the same time, I'm seeing a lot of, you know, other ways of giving as well in addition,

you know, to tips. For example, thank you notes that are. being drawn out in chalk on the garage driveway or posters in the window. And I know it's different from tips. But I think these small moments of positivity, they go a long way. I see this also in the restaurant community where restaurant owners are not just trying to bring positivity in the form of, say, donating meals to those who really need them. They're doing that also with the dashers. But if, and when you can, and I recognize it's a very hard time for everybody and we're all in this together, if you can give a little, I'd recommend that you do.

Given that you operate across states, are you seeing huge differences in business depending on the state? Like, for example, in New York where the crisis has been, you know, quite acute, did you see just sort of delivery numbers surge in New York compared with California, for example, where the numbers of COVID-19 cases is far lower? So most states took a similar shape. There were certainly a couple of exceptions, but most states took a similar shape. And a lot of it have to do with, you know, what announcements were made by state governments or city officials and when those announcements were made. So, for instance, right after the shelter in place announcements were made in a city, the first thing that would happen is, you know, consumers would actually go and stockpile on groceries. And I think this is where you may have read about some of the stories of stores running out of toilet paper, you know, convenience items and things like this. After about a couple of weeks, that's when you started seeing consumer behavior.

resumed to some of what was happening before the pandemic, which was seeking convenience and not necessarily cooking every meal, and they would actually start ordering from restaurants again. And most states and cities took that shape. New York was a bit of an exception to that in a sense that New York has a lot of people who commute into the city, typically when all the businesses are open to work during the day, and then they may leave after hours as the workday closes. Because of the shelter in place announcements, New York just saw a reduction. in the number of people that were there. And so the delivery volume there was more significantly impacted.

Tony, before I let you go, let's talk about like five years out from now, right? When you look back at this time period, what do you want to do now that you can say in five years' time, like, we did this right? We did this in a way that conforms and aligns with our values. Like, what is the thing that you really are kind of reminding yourself to focus on right now? To me, this moment has really been one that has energized Team DoorDash. And I recognize we're amongst a lucky few who get to see our mission, especially now, realized almost every single hour of the day in a very, very pronounced way. And for us, it's making sure that we do the right thing to continue being a true partner to cities,

making sure that regardless of how the world is going to evolve and change and adapt to any form of new normal, we are the best way for local businesses to be online, to learn how to do business in a world where customers may not always walk inside their doors, to be there for the workers on the platform and make sure that not only do they have the flexibility, but that they also have the protections that they need and deserve to be on the road, to make sure that we can continue serving all of the consumers and bring food and other essentials. And finally, making sure that we're a partner to the community. Because we started DoorDash as a business that can solve real problems, that can take technology, you know, to bring food from those who are very generous in donating them to those who need them,

to bring supplies, to make sure that health care workers are protected. So all of these things are things that I look at as not only things that. that I'm proud the team has done now, but also things that we will continue to do in the future. Tony Shue, DoorDash, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to see you here, and hopefully we can see each other in face-to-face one of these days. I hope so. Talk soon, Guy.

That's an excerpt for my conversation with Tony Shue, the founder of DoorDash. To see our full interview, you can go to Facebook.com slash how I built this or to NPR's YouTube page. When we come back in just a moment, we're going to hear from Marcia Kilgore about why good ideas and inspiration, come from crisis and struggle. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This, Resilience Edition. So we first featured Marcia Kilgore's story on the podcast back in 2018. So if you want to hear her backstory, look for it on our podcast queue. It's an incredible story. Anyway, she's founded five brands, including Soap and Glory, Fitflop, Bliss, and Beauty Pie. Fitflop, her footwear brand, is mainly sold in retail shops, but her other business, Beauty Pie, is a direct-to-consumer cosmetics company. I spoke with Marcia about how, for her, big ideas actually emerge during times of crisis and struggle. Let's start with Fitflop. I mean, how are sales for Fitflop right now? Well, you know what?

Footwear, of course, is going to be tough because we normally will wholesale our product to a lot of different retailers throughout the U.S., the UK, and actually 65 different countries. As soon as COVID hit, of course, and retailers shut down, most retailers, if not all of them, as well as a lot of our distributors just canceled their forward orders. And we were having a banner year guy, which is sort of the worst time to be having a really great year. Our product looks beautiful. We had a new design team. We had this incredible momentum because the retailers were also really excited about the product. Now, unfortunately, they all canceled their orders. So not only do we have our normal product that would have gone to them, but probably 30 or 40 percent more.

So that's been a real challenge for us because we have to figure out, okay, what are we going to do with all of these shoes? It's very interesting, though. Of course, people are finding their way to the Internet, which is amazing. And we've had probably a doubling of our online sales because those who couldn't go into retailers are just coming to our site, you know, to buy the shoes that they want and would have. And I find that people love the brand so much that they're still buying shoes despite the fact that not many people are spending that much time walking around out. side. So I guess that goes to the strength of the brand and the strength of the quality of product. And we're really excited about that. Your other brand, Beauty Pie, Cosmetics brand that you launched three and a half years ago, I think you were about to open up a pop-up shop in London,

like in mid-March, right? Like in Harvey Nichols. Yes. So Harvey Nichols, which is a luxury department store in London, asked us to do a pop-up shop. We went in for three days. And then we started to kind of get too much noise in terms of the news about how close COVID was getting to London, and we decided that we would just shut it down and start again another time. But it was great while it lasted. And Beauty Pye was already direct to consumer. I mean, that was not in retail stores anyway. So presumably that brand is a bit more resilient because that was your business model. In fact, we're seeing about four times the number of new members joining every day now because you're getting these incredible luxury quality products, but for so much.

less money that people, I think, in a crisis time, are more responsible with their disposable income if they have disposable income still. And I think people are looking for ways to economize, but without letting go of the quality that they want. So we are kind of on fire, actually, a beauty pie. What explains how people are buying cosmetics and skin care right now? What explains that? Well, A, you have to look good on Zoom. Right? No, we're all on these meetings all day, every day and I think you've got to have your glowing skin. And also I think now more than ever is so important to take care of yourself. Just to remind yourself that you're still human, you still need a small treat. If you can get something that's great and it's affordable, that's

fantastic, but just something to kind of ease the burden. And everyone needs something to look forward to, especially when the days kind of roll into, you know, one into another. I think we all just need to treat ourselves a little bit. Some people are drinking a lot of wine. Some people are using a lot of beauty products. One will make you look better in the end. I want to go to a question from my audience. This is from Kathy Sonnet. She asked, as a creative leader, it's been challenging to create the same magic with teams or clients in this new landscape. What are your thoughts or your approach to kind of achieving that creative magic when remote collaboration is the new norm? It's really hard, isn't it? I think storytelling is a big part of it. I think we are getting

used to, of course, you don't have the same kind of momentum that you will have in a group setting, but storytelling and just building up, I guess, anticipation before you're presenting something, for instance, to a client or to a group will probably help you a little bit more. It is all about figuring out how to communicate and to build that same kind of magic with the energy and the pace, but doing it in little tiles on your screen. So, you know, it's going to be practice. We're going to be perfect at it. But it'll take a while before you perform. your technique. And I think probably also just being very in tune to your audience if you are presenting something. I've done this a couple of times actually because I've presented

decks to people over Zoom. Afterwards, I will actually stop and I will write down what didn't go well. What could I have done better? Or what could someone have done better? And then gone back and just rejig the deck so that I remember, this needs to go here because that storytelling that you might normally feel or be able to see from body language. Maybe it's not taking place in the same way. And you just iterate. But I think we have to be, you know, easy on ourselves. Not too easy, but it's a new learning curve, how to do this. And it's a new skill. And we'll be better in the end for it. I remember in the episode, the first time you were on the show, you described how you were like 19 years old or 20 years old. You were in New York. Basically, you took a three or four week

skincare course to learn about skin care. And that said a whole chain of motion. for what would become bliss and then your journey as an entrepreneur. We're in the middle of a great pause in a sense, right? That it's challenging and difficult. But I wonder whether that experience in a sense, you know, you had that time to learn how to do something which eventually led to what you would do with your life, how this is a moment maybe for opportunity as well. Oh, so much opportunity.

This is sort of my whole theory about entrepreneurship and also about new ideas. And they usually will come from difficulties. I don't think that anybody who is sitting around feeling very comfortable is necessarily going to come up with the next big idea. Usually big ideas come from struggles, from things that are difficult, from fears that you've got, things that are lacking in your own life. And in all of my businesses, I came up with an idea based on something that I couldn't find myself or a bad experience that I'd had and then, you know, created something better out of it. and it really has, you know, worked out time and time again for me. It's usually a disappointment that brings me to create something better. And that just means that for everybody watching,

there are so many opportunities. If you look at them that way, you know, I always say there are two kinds of thoughts. There's a helpful thought and there's an unhelpful thought. That's it. So when you're at home, I think, you know what? Okay, I'm feeling this. I'm feeling scared.

I'm feeling like I don't have. this kind of skill, well, let me go and get that skill rather than I'll never have that scale. And always try if you're having an unhelpful thought to identify it. It's human. And then think, okay, do I need to have this thought? And instead, try and turn that into a helpful thought and what kind of plan you can put in motion to get where you need to go. Yeah, I remember when we had Howard Schultz on a few years ago, he talked about how when you're comfortable, that's when you're in trouble. That big ideas come from struggle and they come from being uncomfortable and being sort of off balance.

Yeah, absolutely. It's how you grow. You know, how you grow, how you build your muscle. Everything that you don't know how to do is just a muscle that you haven't exercised. So this is the opportunity to kind of get in their battle fight. It's your exercise. It's your weight lifting. And you want to come out with those muscles being stronger on the other side.

So it's an opportunity for everyone. I know it's still early. We're still like, what, eight weeks into this thing for most of Europe and the U.S., a little longer for other countries. but are you sort of seeing the beginnings of new opportunities for you, for what you do right now? Are you starting to kind of see the seeds of those future opportunities? You know, my plate is so full at the moment. It's difficult sometimes when I've got so much going on and just so much to run every day in terms of output.

It's hard to come up with new things, although the shower is a good place. You know, often in the shower, you will come up with a new idea. And I have a few other ideas kind of in the pipeline that I put on hold because I just don't have time to even. think about them, but I'm sure that, you know, there are so many people out there with ideas that they perhaps didn't, didn't have the time to look into or didn't have the need. And those are things that are going to sprout from this. I'd encourage everybody to just try and create a plan for whatever their idea is, whatever their goal is, right?

And it's going to be about being flexible emotionally and flexible in how you approach things. It's that yoga. you need the muscle building, you need the yoga. You've got to be a river that can kind of move and change your direction, but you have to set your side on a goal. And I think this is the time that people can really get there because you don't have as much to lose. Right.

It's a question from Jennifer Jordan, Hamaker. What are you learning? How are you learning to manage inventory and new product rollout creatively right now? What are some things that you're doing to figure out the best way to handle those things? Well, so for Beauty Pie, we've had. a product plan for a very long time and it takes about 18 months to make a new beauty product. And, you know, oddly, the supply chain hasn't really been challenged that much. So we're very lucky there. With footwear, of course, we have to think about how many of the products that we

ordered for this year will ever even see the light of day. And whether or not we should be putting them all live, for instance, or we should hold some of those products that are going to be just as classic this year as they might be next year when no one has seen them. And do we just told them in the warehouse, try and work on some payment plans, for instance, with some of the factories and have them ready for next year and think, you know, everything old is new again, as they say, but sometimes if you've got a classic product, no one will know that it isn't new except for you. And it is new the first time that anybody sees it. So I guess it's being open-minded about what our definitions are and trying to move some of those things to suit the financial

situations we find ourselves in. Marcia, when you, we last side, other in San Francisco. You came to the How I Built the Summit. When I interviewed you on stage, then you quoted the book Originals, I think, by Adam Graham. That book says, true entrepreneurs hedge their bets. What does bet hedging look like in this environment, right? Because, I mean, I think you were referring to the fact that at one point in your career, you had two businesses going at the same time. And that was kind of an example of that. I mean, should entrepreneurs be hedging their bets approaching big decisions more cautiously? I think certainly in a time like this, and this is extraordinary, right?

We never, as a world, community, we've never faced anything like this. So I think that most people will be so focused on just keeping the day-to-day running, it's probably hard to do too much hedging. But hedging in terms of having skills, right, or honing skills, or learning how to do more than one thing, just in case you can't afford a person in your business to do job X anymore, or you might be able to pick it up yourself, I think, is, you know, it's always a good thing. Until recently, I've never had a business that I couldn't do most of the jobs. So when I had my very first facial studio, I was doing the laundry and the facials and the reception

and the booking and everything else. And then, you know, eventually I could give some of those things away. So for smaller businesses, hedging your bets probably just means learning more parts of that business that you might have thought you could afford to outsource. Maybe you can't right now. And that's all right. There'll be a time for it. And probably that will mean that when that time does come, that you can hire someone, you will know that person's job so well that you'll be able to find the perfect person to fill that role.

And that's a gift because you'll always feel really confident that you've chosen someone who really knows what they're talking about because you've done it. Question from Gloria Duarte, she asked, brainstorming is so important. And so Gloria asks any suggestions or advice for how we can find platforms to brainstorm ideas, or to find support right now. Oh, my, I think that's so easy right now, isn't it? Because you've got Zoom and you've got all these platforms where you can just share, invite everybody to a brainstorm. Invite 20 people to a brainstorm and say,

I've got three problems. Can anyone help? Get a glass of wine and let's go and set a time and send out invitations. I bet you'll get some people. It could be quite fun, actually, to have brainstorms and invite some people and ask them to invite people. And when you start doing those connected thought projects, You come up with so many fresh ideas and also people who are willing to help.

Marcia, every time I've been to New York since I interviewed you, I think about you living in New York in the 80s, like came as an 18-year-old. Like you knew nobody. Your sister was there. You came from Canada. You'd no money. If you were that same young woman now and you were starting out and you were looking to build something, what do you think you would have done or tried to do to figure it out?

You know, it's so different now because everybody. is online. And I'd say it'll be easier, so much easier when lockdown ends and you can connect with people. But I think that what's going to make people special now and make you different is your ability to connect really closely with other human beings. And it's not going to be so much about rushing around, but what makes you special as a person will also be your greatest advantage. So that uniqueness and your network and your ability to be authentic with people, I think, will give you, you know, a real step up when you can connect with people. And of course, now that can be done via Zoom or via FaceTime or any of the other different

platforms that we've got. But I do think that being your authentic self, working hard and focusing on what really matters to you in terms of your career and what you want to do is the way that it's going to go. Do you think that this economic crisis is going to change the way people consume, cosmetics and beauty products. I mean, you are direct-to-consumer. Fitflop is a retail-based product. But with respect to Beauty Pi, I mean, do you see a future where more and more cosmetic brands are going to focus on direct-to-consumer rather than going into department stores and Sephora and that kind of distribution model? I think there were probably a lot of brands

that are already direct-to-consumer, but they will have a direct-to-consumer model that also charges retail prices because you have to have the same price equivalence across all of your channels. That's the one thing that we did that was very disruptive. We just didn't charge for the retailer markup or for the celebrity marketing or for the middleman. So it's the same product, but much less expensive. And of course, it will depend on whether retail comes back. If you're a brand that's in retailers and on retail websites, you're going to have to charge the same price for your product no matter where people pick it up. So that's sort of the differentiator between us and other brands. I think a lot of people,

when first hearing about Beauty Pie say, well, we'd like to be able to go into a shop and try on a lipstick or try on an eye shadow. And I'm not sure how soon something like that will come back because we're going to have to be really careful about trying on products that aren't freshly wrapped, let's just say. Question from Kelly Marie Williams. How do you stay motivated when things are not going as planned or when your personal life is not particularly motivating? She wants to bottle up your enthusiasm, Marcia. That is what she writes. How do you do it? Because is it work?

Do you work hard to make yourself? It's a habit, right? So being positive, I think we're thinking, okay, if you're having a negative moment, you just think, well, this is temporary. And the habit of remembering that negative moments are temporary is just something that you have to practice. Like Buddhism, right? You have to practice how you control your thoughts. And over long periods of time, you just get better at it.

And you know, you know, there are hard times, and you'll have those more difficult days. but usually the next day, if you get a good sleep, you're going to feel great again. So just remembering everything is temporary and just, you know, being grateful for what we've got. Anybody watching this has a computer or a phone to be able to connect with people through technology that isn't available to everybody. And that's just, that's also a real gift. So I try to always remember what my gifts are, even if I am having, you know, struggles on one side. I try and remember how lucky I am all the time.

And I feel incredibly blessed. And every time that I'm going through a struggle, and certainly, you know, with business, there are always these struggles. You just remember that you're going to come out stronger on the other side. And anything that is hard is a learning experience. If it wasn't hard, you wouldn't need to learn it. And anything that's worth doing is hard. Yes, agree.

We've time for one more. I'm just going to ask you this question, which I've been asking everybody who comes on, which is in five years from now, what do you want to take away from this time that you want to carry with you in the future and you want to kind of inform the way? you think about how you run your businesses. I think the most important part and the most important kind of reckoning that I've had from this is just the understanding of how important it is to connect with people, to take that time to really listen, that you're listening to understand, not necessarily to respond, to be able

to have that real and authentic connection with customers because you're not rushing as much to find out what they really want and what's important to them. because that's what's going to keep you on top of your game in the future and being able to have those real heartfelt true conversations with people. This is a time that we're getting to do that you probably wouldn't normally have. So we really have to embrace it, take advantage of it, spend that extra time that we've got also on our families, on our kids, who we might not, you know, I have not had to get on an airplane for nine weeks.

that is just absolutely amazing and that's a gift too. So, you know, because of technology, I'm able to be, you know, with my kids and also able to be with my customers and that's a wonderful thing. I love it. It's so great to see you.

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And good luck to everybody who's watching. We'll make it. That's an excerpt for my conversation with Marcia Kilgore, the founder of Fitflop, Beauty Pie, Bliss, and many others,

To see our full interview, you can go to Facebook.com slash how I built this. And if you want to see all of our past live interviews, you can find them at YouTube.com slash NPR. This week, we've been going live every single day with leaders in the fashion and beauty world. On Friday, I'll be hosting my last conversation of the week with James Reinhart, the founder of Thread Up. So bring your questions and join us live on Friday at noon Eastern, 9 Pacific on Twitter, YouTube, or Facebook. And if you want to find out more about the How I Built This Resilience, series or other virtual NPR events, you can go to nprpresents.org. This episode was produced by Candice Limb, with help from John Isabella, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers.

Thanks for listening. Stay safe and we'll see you next week. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR.