How I Built This with Guy Raz - How I Built Resilience (Special Edition): Guy Raz

Episode Date: September 12, 2020

On this special episode, Stacey Vanek Smith interviews Guy about his brand new book, How I Built This: The Unexpected Paths to Success from the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs. Stacey asks Guy about growing up with entrepreneurial parents, working overseas as a war reporter, and how elements of entrepreneurship have mirrored the trajectory of his own career. These conversations are excerpts from our How I Built Resilience series.Pre-order the How I Built This book at: https://smarturl.it/HowIBuiltThisSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hey everyone and welcome to how I built this resilience edition. Now, usually on these episodes, I talk with entrepreneurs and other leaders about how they're navigating these challenging times. But, you know, over the years, a lot of people have asked me, how did you build how I built this?

So we decided to answer that question today with my friend who is the host of this episode, Stacey Vanek-Smith. Hello and welcome to How I Built This from NPR. I host Planet Money's Daily Indicator podcast. And I am here for a very special episode of How I Built This. If you have not heard, Guy has a book coming out on September 15th. It is called How I Build This, The Unexpected, paths to success from the world's most inspiring entrepreneurs. And in it, Guy lays out some really fantastic practical advice for people starting their own businesses. There are, of course, a

bunch of very powerful stories from some of the world's most successful entrepreneurs. And my personal favorite part, there is the story of Guy Raz himself and the creation of the show. Guy Raz, welcome to how I built this. Hello, Stacey. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. I'm very honored to be here. And I mean, I hope you're not nervous. I am a little bit. Because normally I get to just sit back and ask questions and then just stay quiet. And then the pressure's on the other person.

So it's, yeah. But this is like, this is a very, I mean, in a lot of ways, this is exactly like the kinds of interview that you do with your guests. So I feel like this is particularly exciting for people. Anyway, to the book, the important business at hand. My favorite part is the story of how you built the show. So you started in the book talking about growing up. And your parents were entrepreneurs, actually, which I didn't realize. So talk a little bit about that because you were not necessarily drawn to entrepreneurship. No. I mean, my dad, he worked for a defense contractor as an engineer. And that was his career. My mom was a teacher. And at the age of 41, my mom and dad decided to start a business. I mean, decided my dad decided to leave his safe, comfortable job as an engineer. And my mom, you know, stopped teaching. And they said,

started a jewelry store selling pearls in downtown Los Angeles. And I remember as a kid watching my mom and dad go through like lists of people to cold call and go door to door in downtown L.A. trying to sell their pearls. And it was, it was tough going. I mean, you know, at 41 kind of with three children starting his life again, his professional career again. And it was tough. I mean, a lot of late nights and a lot of struggle.

And, you know, I didn't really fully appreciate it as a kid, of course. I just, you know, I noticed my parents coming home really late or leaving for downtown L.A. really early. But, you know, as I got older and began to reflect on it, you know, I realized how difficult it was to become an entrepreneur. And, you know, I think over the course of my early life, it seemed to me that what I wanted to do was the opposite of that. I didn't want to be involved with that. That was, it didn't seem stable. You know, it seemed very uncertain. And I also grew up at a time, you know, where I think a lot of what we thought of as like business people or entrepreneurs, which wasn't widely used in the 80s.

There were a lot of pitchmen on TV selling products that seem to be kind of half-baked. You mean like those infomercials when it was like, do you have trouble getting lids off of like cans of peanuts? And it's like, now you can buy this device with like free scissors and all this stuff, right? Like the Norelko blade, as close as, you know, saves as close as a blade or your money back or the, you know, whatever it was. You know, the Ronco products, you know, there were all of these infomercials on Lainitev with Pitchman. And so when I was younger, I was very sort of skeptical of what, you know, of people selling products. Because to me it seemed, you know, they seemed like a scam. Right.

And so you become a reporter at NPR, a war reporter, actually. And you're kind of on this track at NPR. then things kind of go in a direction you don't expect. So tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, I was really, you know, I was a news reporter and, as you say, I covered wars. I mean, a lot of people, when I tell them this, they're sort of surprised because I'm not really an adrenaline junkie. It's not in my natural state of being. I kind of fell into it. I mean, I was overseas before 9-11. There were some sort of skirmishes in the Balkans that I covered. And then after 9-11, if you were overseas, you basically were sent to conflict zones. And I was sent to Afghanistan and to. Iraq and and then eventually I worked for CNN covering Israel and Palestine and then I came back to NPR and covered the Pentagon. So that's what I did for a while for a long time and then became a news anchor of all things considered on the weekend. But you know, I think in a certain point I, for a variety of reasons, decided that I wanted to leave the news world. You know, a lot of people go into

journalism because they want to make some kind of improvement in the world. You know, I think a lot of journalists are committed to the idea of spreading information and truths with the hope that the more people know those things and understand them, the better the national conversation will be and the more engaged people will be and the more rational our debates will be. And, you know, steadily over the years of doing that, I didn't actually see that happening. I didn't, I didn't feel like I was making that kind of contribution. So I had an opportunity to kind of just, jump ship in a sense and to leave the news world and then eventually to begin working on what are now, you know, podcasts. This was in 2012 when podcasts were still relatively kind of fringe in a sense.

Oh, yeah. I remember when I went into podcast myself, I was trying to explain to my parents what they were. And my mom said, so it's like radio on the internet. And I was like, what have I done to my career? I just remember being like, yes, it's radio on the internet. So yeah, it was very new and fringe. Yeah, you were a reporter at Marketplace and then you went to Planet Money. And I sort of left the news world and went and collaborated with TED. And we created this show called The Ted Radio Hour, you know, that had been created in the previous summer. And then I joined it and then we kind of relaunched it. And that was an amazing experience.

And through that, really how I built this grew up, sort of came up. But the idea for it goes back about 12 years. I was really fortunate earlier in my career to take a year out and to do a fellowship. It's called the Neiman Fellowship. And it's at Harvard. And they basically pay your way to go there for a year as an adult. And I took a class at the business school. This was in 2008.

And on the first day of the class, we received a handout. And it was the story of how Starbucks was founded. It was like a case study. It was a case study. It was part A. And I brought it home and I devoured it. It was so interesting. It was how Howard Schultz kind of navigated all the ups and downs and ended on a cliffhanger. And you had to wait a week to go back to class to get Part B. And it was incredible. I had no idea that that is how business school was taught.

And it kind of planted a seed in my head. These are stories that can be told in a really deep, meaningful, powerful way and also for free because you don't have to pay the Harvard Business School tuition. So that's really where the idea kind of began to germinate. And when I finally had the confidence to pursue it, it was about six or seven years later, I think in 2015 when I started to work on the concept for how I built this. And we launched it in 2016 almost exactly four years ago. That's amazing. One of the things that I loved reading about, too, was when you were in this class reading these case studies, something struck you about sort of the story of the building of a business, of an entrepreneur.

and I wonder if you'll talk a little bit about that. Yeah. I don't know if you ever saw this documentary that Bill Moyers did in the, I think it was in the 80s, and it's about Joseph Campbell. Oh, the power of myth. I think I've seen it like a hundred times. I love that movie. George Lucas is in it, and he talks about how Joseph Campbell influenced Star Wars. Joseph Campbell was a writer and a philosopher who basically codified this idea that most narratives, most epic stories trace a certain narrative arc.

and there are moments in those stories that are common throughout all stories, whether it's stories in the Bible or Gilgamesh or The Odyssey, you know, Harry Potter. It's basically there's a hero. She's different or an oddball and has an idea. And the people in the village kind of think she's crazy. So she has to leave the village and then go through a series of trials. You know, she finds a mentor. She gets lost.

The mentor dies. She falls into an abyss. she fights a dragon, she's almost killed, she slays the dragon, she emerges in the hole. You know, you see these patterns in all of these archetypal stories. And while in building a brand or a business, you're not slaying a dragon. There are extreme ups and downs that are so dramatic, that are so powerful that they make for incredible stories. And so really what how I built this is, it's not a business show. It is a storytelling show told through the prism of business.

So you have this idea and you have the background of a storyteller and a journalist and you think these are the stories that people want to hear. And as humans, I feel like we are just drawn to the hero myth. I mean, Joseph Campbell makes the point that this is like pretty much universal. All cultures have a hero myth. What do you think it is about the hero's myth that we love so much that like draws us in so much? I mean, I think we're drawn into it because there are elements of it. that mirror our own lives. We will all experience grief and hardship and struggle and challenges and moments, you know, maybe not this extreme, but moments where we're on the bathroom floor

crying in the fetal position. What I think is so remarkable about the stories on how I built this is that they're designed to be relatable. You know, I want people to hear the story of Sarah Blakely and imagine Sarah Blakely going door to door selling fax machines. And, you know, after the 100th person tells her, please leave our premises, no soliciting. You can picture her in her car, just crying and saying, this is not, this is not what I want to do. This is not how I want to live my life. And I think anybody listening to that story can relate to it. You know, Sarah Blakely, of course, started Spanx and became the youngest self-made billionaire in American history. And was your first interview on how I built this? And it was our first interview. And we did that very deliberately

because we wanted to signal that this show was going to be different. It wasn't going to be a show about fourth quarter profits or, you know, the latest earnings report or P&L, which are fine. I mean, there's there's a place for those kinds of shows. There's a whole channel that does that all the time. Yeah, it's very popular. You know, it was going to be a show about story, narrative-driven show full of wisdom, ideas, and practical advice, you know, for people who don't. have access to the many people we do. And because we have that access, we also feel great responsibility to open that person up, you know, to just kind of unpack their experiences so we can

deliver it to our listeners and our audiences who don't get to spend three or four hours with Sarah Blakely, you know, interrogating them about their lives. So you said something very interesting in your book, which I, which captivated me and maybe this is is too insider basebally, but you said when you started the show, you'd done thousands of interviews. with all kinds of different people in all sorts of circumstances, but that you were actually quite nervous for your first, how I built this interview, which very much captivated my mind,

because I wonder, like, what was that first interview like for you, and why were you nervous? Yeah, I mean, the way I think I express nerves is a little bit different. I mean, I get nervous, a version, I experience a version of nervousness before every interview I do. And it's not nervous about the, meeting the person or being in a room with them or whatever it might be, I want it to be so powerful. I want the story to be so, you know, so resonant. I want it to be worth our listeners'

time. If you as a listener are going to give me an hour of your time, I have to make it worth your time. I have to, I mean, an hour of your time is extremely valuable. You know, we have maybe three or four hours at most of free time to ourselves every day and fewer if you've got people that you take care of. And I'm asking somebody to give me an hour of their time on a certain day to listen to how I built this. I better be giving you something worth your time. And so that's really where the nervousness comes from. And with Sarah Blakely, I wanted that first episode to be so powerful. I wanted us to send a signal that we were doing something different, that we were going to create a show about business that was going to sound different.

that wasn't going to include the usual suspects, that was going to be full of diverse voices. And I want every episode we do to be excellent. I want people listening to it to come out of that feeling inspired and energized and really motivated to power through their day or their week or their business or whatever it is that is making their life challenging at that moment. I'm wondering if there's like a moment from that interview that stands out in your mind where you thought, I mean, because this is like you were risking a lot here. You had pitched this to NPR. This was your venture. This was your, you'd gotten this big get as far as an interview. This was a moment kind of to see if this was going to work.

This was where the rubber met the road. And I'm wondering if there was a moment during the interview where you thought, like, yes, this is going to happen. You know, probably from the first 30 seconds. Really? Because she is so charismatic and wonderful and funny and dynamic and a wonderful storyteller and open. I mean, she has nothing to hide. we have one precondition for everybody who comes on the show, and it's very simple. It's we don't accept any preconditions.

Your precondition is that you don't accept preconditions. Right. We don't say that to be difficult or to embarrass people, but a lot of, you know, a lot of famous people are used to doing interviews where there are, there's kind of a give and take. Like, I won't talk about this. They won't talk about that. They won't talk about that. They won't talk about that. And I totally respect that. That's fair enough, especially when it comes to celebrities who want to protect their privacy. On our show, we can't do that because we are avatars for our listeners, for our audience. Our audience expects us to ask the questions that they want answers to. So what I always say to our guests is this is a 360 degree view of who you are. There's nobody on planet Earth who is perfect. Every single person has flaws. Everybody has made mistakes.

Everybody's done stupid things. That's the point of the show. It's to show your entire journey, you know, this full contextualized. story of who you are, what you did, the mistakes you made, why you did them, what you learned from them along the way. And I think that's been really, you know, that's been a really important part of why the show connects with people, because I'm actually much less interested in success than I am in failure. We learn so much more from people's failures than we do from their successes. If you heard our recent episode we did on Ring Doorbells with Jamie Simenoff, 80%

of that episode is about his failures and his struggles and his crises. You know, just a tiny part of it is when Ring really made it. But it was such a powerful episode because here's this guy who sold his company for a billion dollars to Amazon, but who up until the very last second was actually really struggling. And it's, that's when we grow, when you as a listener, grow as an entrepreneur. And when I also, when I grow as a storyteller, you know, when I learn from the hardships and the struggles and how people got through them, because I also internalize those. And I also, they also help me think about how to break through challenging moments and times when I'm going through them. Yeah, I also think the hero's myth can give a meaning to difficult times, which I feel like is especially important in difficult times. Like we're all kind of going through right now as a country. And I do feel like, One of the things that's so powerful about the hero's myth is when you hear it, you can see how the failure ultimately was part of the success. And I feel like that's a very powerful and important thing to hear over and over and over again. Like I feel like it's one of those things you can't necessarily hear enough times.

Right. It's sort of why I structured the book that way. You know, there are a lot of people out there who either are starting a business or want to start a business or just want to be inspired by the people who do these things. because a lot of us, most of us, many people will work for big organizations, will work for companies. And I don't believe that being an entrepreneur just means that you're doing it on your own. Being entrepreneurial, I think, is a mindset. You know, there are a lot of entrepreneurial people who work inside big organizations. There are a lot of entrepreneurial people at NPR. There are a lot of entrepreneurial people at Apple.

I mean, the iPhone was invented by employees of Apple. You know, Johnny I've designed it. He was an internal entrepreneur. And I think that that way of thinking is a mindset that is very powerful. And so the idea behind the book is to say, here is how other people have done it. And by the way, they're no different than you. You know, they're not superheroes. All they did was walk into the phone booth and put on the cape.

Here is your guidebook and your map to get to the phone booth and put on the cape. And so I feel like I have to ask you, what was the biggest moment of struggle for you in starting the show? was there a moment when, I don't know, you felt like it wasn't going to work or you didn't want to do it or when you hit a wall yourself? Yeah, I mean, there were certainly moments where it was certainly not clear whether it was going to happen. But, you know, I think what's important and one of the reasons why I focused so much on crisis and struggle is that implicitly in how I built this, right, the people who come on the show, we know they're successful. We know they have achieved some level of success. Not always financial, but they've built something that's out in the world that has had some. kind of cultural impact. And I think we often default into thinking that these people are superheroes.

And that's why I focus so much on those moments of failure, the moments of crisis. You know, when Jamie Simeonov is wondering whether they should take a line of credit against their mortgage and worrying that they're going to lose their house, or James Dyson pretty much broke at the age of 42 because he's spent seven years trying to perfect this vacuum cleaner and everyone thinks he's crazy. or Gary Hirshberg spending eight or nine years losing money while building Stonyfield yogurt and not really sure whether it's going to work. Throughout my career, I've had so many failures that were so pivotal and so challenging and so difficult at the moment, but we're so important in hindsight.

You know, now that I can reflect on them and can think about those moments of failure, I really understand that they were so necessary and so important. important. You know, the directions I didn't take, the jobs I didn't get, the positions I really wanted that never happened. And even moments where I thought, you know, I'm sort of, maybe I wasn't meant to be a broadcaster. Maybe I wasn't meant to be an interviewer or a host or a journalist or whatever it might be. And I went through that so many times in my career, but they were so important because each time they pushed me to explore a different direction. And I think it's the same with all the founders in this show. I'm wondering if there's like a specific example that you

could give us of just a moment where at the time it seemed like very bad news, but you changed direction in a way that in retrospect was quite important. Well, you know, for me, I think one of the hardest moments for me professionally was I had always thought early in my, this is about 10 years ago, I had always thought that I wanted to be one of the main news anchors on NPR. You know, that to me was a really important job, a prestigious job, and it is. And, you know, for a variety of reasons, it wasn't going to happen. It wasn't going to be me. I wasn't going to be one of the main anchors. And that was hard because I had sort of thought that that was what I wanted to do. But in fact, it kind of was one of the reasons that I got out of the news side of things entirely because I felt like

my future wasn't in that part of my profession, that the news wasn't probably what I should be doing. And had that not happened, you know, I wouldn't have gone on to collaborate with TED to do the TED Radio hour and then create how I built this and wow and co-create wow in the world. And, you know, again, very difficult at the time 10 years ago, but incredibly important for me on reflection. And I think had those things not happened, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to pivot into a totally different direction. So I definitely have to ask you, there is a word that is very associated with you. Okay. That you say quite a bit, the word is wow. You're very known for it. It's like your signature. I'm wondering if you can talk to me about, wow, why does this come up so much in your interviews?

You know, before I do an interview with somebody, we spend a lot of time digging into their life. So I know a lot about the person. What I then do when I go into the interview is try and forget all of it and go inside of that person's head. Because we are all living in our own movie, right? We're all, our consciousness is basically our movie. Everyone's life is from their own perspective. And it's almost impossible, pretty much impossible, to get inside somebody's head and to see the world through somebody's perspective. What I'm trying to do is to get inside somebody's into the cockpit of their brain and to sit there, you know, next to them with the steering wheel and relive that journey with them.

What happens is that I am swept up in that story so intensely because I'm with them on that journey. I'm with that person. I'm with, you know, Kate Spade. I'm with her as she's, she comes to New York City for. from Arizona to start her job at, you know, is it a low-level editorial assistant at Cosmo? And the day, you know, her husband, Andy, arrives and she can't find her keys and he has to climb the fire escape ladder to get to their studio apartment in New York in the 80s. You know, I'm with her. I'm with her as she's telling me that story. And it's mind-blowing.

It's just so exciting. And so the wow is not a conscious thing that I do. I'm just in awe. I'm like right there back in New York in the 80s or back in. in San Francisco in the 90s with somebody in their apartment. I'm so riveted and excited about the story. And I think that's how it, that's, that's just what happens. I just, I just say, wow, I get, you know, I just express it that way. It's a genuine reaction. One thing about the word wow is that there's, like, there's nothing like cynical about it. You know, often as a reporter and I'm a thousand percent

guilty of this, you'll be like, oh, yes, of course. You know what I mean? There's always this temptation to be like, oh, yeah, I knew that. I knew that. But this is almost the opposite of that, Which I find, which is really interesting. I think rare in an interview. I'm, I feel like my job is to trigger memories. And what I'm trying to do is to trigger recollections and details of things through the questions I ask and how I ask them. Oftentimes, we don't, we don't remember things until we're prompted to. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm on that journey. And, and I'm experiencing the emotional highs and lows with that person. So at a certain point, you are rooting for them because you are. you're in the movie with them. Right, because you're like, if you're really in that moment with them, you don't know that everything's going to be okay

and Amazon's going to buy their company for a billion dollars. Right. And at the time, they didn't either. I mean, now they know the story ends well, but at the time, you're on your last credit card. You don't know that the story is going to end well. And in the process of writing the book, because that is a little bit of a different process,

although the book is very, very related and intertwined with the show. Did you learn anything either about the show or I'm just wondering what that process kind of taught you? Yeah, I mean, so much. You know, ultimately, what is really remarkable about when you sort of begin to see this in context is that every single person who has been on the show is starts out more or less at the exact same place, not in terms of the resources they might have or maybe connections, but the same exact place, which is they haven't proven anything. They haven't gained the

confidence of anybody yet. You know, Airbnb, the guys who created Airbnb in 2008, they went to 20 investors, not a single investor invested. And so what really strikes me is that we are all at a certain point starting out more or less in the same spot. You know, there's a great line that Bob Dylan sang once, you know, sometimes even the president of the United States must have to stand naked. And it's a reminder that we are all in this vulnerable spot, you know, at a certain point in our lives. And all it really takes is a slight nudge, pivot, twist, turn, luck, hard work, call it whatever you want, but something that then gets you out of that moment of vulnerability. And that's what's really, you know, incredible to me about all these stories. It's very generous, Guy.

All right. This is a question from Heather from Facebook. And she asks, how much of guy's success does he attribute to luck versus hard work? Yeah. You know, I don't ask that question. I don't think of it as a binary question. I don't think of it as, is it luck or is it skill? I really ask that question more, it's more of a device to give somebody an opportunity to reflect on everything we've talked about. Because by the time we get to that question, you've heard an hour, an hour, 15 minute interview, and we've really gone through their life. And here is a moment for the person to reflect on everything that we've talked about. How often do you reflect on your own life? You know, how often do we get a chance to sit back and really take stock of our life.

This is a very rare moment for most of these founders to do that. And it's hard to do it. So I'm not looking for a specific answer to that question. I'm really looking just to hear their thoughts. There's no right or wrong answer. There's so many factors that play into success or perceived success. Those things can be access. It can be your background, certain inherited and

often unearned privileges that some people have based on where they were born or their gender or their race or their economic situation. All these are factors that contribute to outcomes that, you know, I think we are having a deeper conversation about in our country. You know, in my case, I think like most people, of course I work hard. I love what I do. But I always say that somebody working on a construction site works harder than anybody in Silicon Valley. Somebody waiting tables works harder than any billionaire because it's a really hard job. So hard work alone isn't enough, but it is important and it is a factor. And I think the element of luck or chance or whatever word you might want to use, I think it passes all of us by in some forms once or twice or maybe more

than that in our lifetime. You know, when I think about luck, for me, It was the luck of people that I met, you know, the chance encounters that I had that led me to be able to do what I do today. Sometimes those encounters were so random. The way I met my wife, it was random. We've been together for 20 years, and without her in my life, I don't think I would have done how I built this or wow in the world or the other programs that I do because she is the person I talk to about my ideas and go to for advice. So I think that there is an element of chance and luck and fate and fortune in some of the successes that I talk about on the show and some of my own. But it's part of a more complex series of things that help to explain outcomes. Well, another sort of interesting thing is as you're talking with these entrepreneurs about failure and you know, you made the point that sometimes something that seems like a huge setback is actually the thing that turns someone onto a new path.

So it's hard to know sometimes if something that happens, even that feels like bad luck is bad luck or might be good luck. It gets a little tricky in there sometimes with these journeys. No, for sure. It really does. And it's why I ask that question. It's sort of like, you know, when you go to a museum, you go in, you look at the art and then you come out into the atrium and you're looking at the soaring atrium. Oftentimes there's a soaring atrium and they were designed deliberately for that reason to kind of reflect on what you've just. experienced. And that's sort of how the question is designed.

I think it's time for us to wrap up. Thank you, everybody, for submitting your questions, as we're awesome. And of course, do not forget Guy's book, How I Built This, The Unexpected Path to Success from the world's most inspiring entrepreneurs. It is available for pre-order. And Guy, thank you so much. This was such a privilege for me. And thank you again to Stacey Vanek-Smith for guest hosting this special episode of How How I Built This Resilience series. You can hear Stacey on the Indicator podcast for from Planet Money. And of course, you can find my new book, How I Built This, wherever books are sold. To see our full interview, you can go to facebook.com slash how I built this. And if you want to see

all of our past live interviews, you can find them there or at YouTube.com slash NPR. This episode was produced by Candace Lim, with help from Will Mitchell, Matt Adams, El Manion, Gianna Cappadona, John Isabella, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Thanks for listening. Stay safe. And I'll see you back here a few days. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.