How I Built This with Guy Raz - ICYMI... HIBT Lab! Blogilates: Cassey Ho

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

Cassey Ho is the face of Blogilates, best known for its free online workout videos which have more than a billion views on YouTube alone. As impressive as that is, digital content is just one part of Cassey’s multi-million dollar entrepreneurial portfolio, which has grown to include her POPFLEX apparel brand, additional product lines at Target, a Pilates certification program, and more. This week on How I Built This Lab, hear about the risks Cassey took to defy cultural expectations in pursuit of a more fulfilling – and in some ways, forbidden – career, along with her perspective on what it takes to grow a business in the creator economy.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.ca. Hey, really quick before we start the show, this week we are revisiting one of our very first how I built this lab interviews. It's with Cassie Ho of Blagallotties. If you haven't heard it, you will absolutely love it. It's a story of how Cassie came out of nowhere to build this incredible. YouTube Fitness Empire.

Here it is, enjoy. Hello and welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. Today we're talking about the creator economy with Cassie Ho, the personality behind the fitness YouTube channel Bloggalates. Cassie's channel has more than 6 million

subscribers and her videos have been viewed more than a billion times. But her fitness videos, most of which are free, are just a part of a larger business she's built. Today, Cassie runs multiple businesses, including an apparel brand, several product lines, and a Pilates certification platform. And the amazing thing is that Cassie sort of fell into her life as a fitness and fashion entrepreneur somewhat accidentally.

It started with a basic exercise video she uploaded to YouTube back in 2009 for her Pilates students. But somehow, word got out and lots more people started to watch the video. First thousands of people, then tens of thousands, and they kept asking Cassie for more. More Pilates videos, then workout clothes, water bottles, yoga mats, the works. That was more than a decade ago, and Cassie's business is just getting started. Cassie Ho, welcome to how I built this lab. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here. This is literally a dream. Well, here you dream come true. Let's make it happen.

Yes. Cassie, I want to, I want you to take me back to, you know, your life sort of before you became, well, one of the best known fitness instructors and leaders in, you know, in the world, really. You did not, I mean, when you were sort of in high school and in college, like this was not in the stars for you. This was not what was written in the stars. You were like sort of planning to be, I guess, a doctor or lawyer or some other kind of quote unquote stable career. Is that right? That's right. So I'm Chinese and Vietnamese American. My parents are both immigrants. And for them, stability and having respect with your career is a really, financial stability is a huge thing.

They came over to this country with nothing. And so in my bones, I always wanted to be a fashion designer, but it's not one of the three careers that are allowed in our culture. And so when I told my dad that I wanted to become a designer. He told me I had three choices. I could either be a doctor, a lawyer, or a failure. Wow. I know. Dad. Dad. Like he literally said that to me. And it scared me. And I was a very obedient kid. Like I did everything my parents said. I was in all the AP and honors classes. And I was like, okay, all right, fine. I'll do medical science. I'll go to school to become a doctor because that's what you want. But my heart was so hollow when I was in college.

We know that you did choose failure, actually, as your career. We'll get to that later. But I get it, right? I read that you first got exposed to Pilates when you were 16. It was a video or DVD that you saw. It was Marie Windsor, I think. Yeah. Okay.

So when I was 16, it was the weekend. I remember I was watching infomercials on TV and I saw Mari Windsor and I saw this lady like coaching like two other ladies doing these beautiful moves. And I was like, I want to do that. And at the time I was, you know, captain of the tennis team. I'd been playing tennis ever since I was six and I was athletic. But I would not say I was an athlete or that I enjoyed what I was doing. I did not discover fitness until I discovered Pilates. because tennis for me was like you're here to beat someone.

You're always beating someone. But with Pilates, what I found, you know, after I begged my parents to get me the DVD and they finally let me, I would do it in my room every night. And I just felt like I was just trying to compete against who I was yesterday and just trying to be better and get stronger and more flexible. And, you know, what used to make me sore no longer is and now I can advance onto the next move. And that was really the moment I discovered fitness and the joy.

in fitness that, you know, I try to spread with people today with the videos that I do. You were, as you say, a good student. And I think you went and I think you went and studied biology at Whittier College in Southern California. But you knew that fashion was the thing that you were passionate about. And how did you find that? Did it just come naturally to you? Were you, would you flip through fashion magazines as a teenager and look at look at the

the models and the outfits and the designs? I don't know how it came to me, but ever since I was like six, I would carry a sketchbook with me everywhere, and I would just draw things. And particularly evening gowns and red carpet dresses, I just love romantic, beautiful things. And so you'll see a lot of that in my designs today

with the active wear. But I just love sketching and creating. So that's what it started with. And, you know, fashion magazines, yeah, like I read them here and there. That wasn't what got me. It was the creation of it, like the sewing. Like that got me more excited than looking at the photos.

All right. So despite your desire to work in a fashion industry, you did go and study biology in college. Meantime, did you continue to do Pilates as a student? Is this something that you really kind of deepened in your practice and developed during your time in college? So I was. I was actually continuing to do Pilates, but in the common. area. And so a bunch of girls would walk by and be like, what are you doing? Can you teach us? And so I ended up teaching, like, for fun to a couple girls. And then I was looking for a side hustle to distract me

from how much I was hating school. I was on Craigslist. And I saw there was an audition for a Pilates instructor. And I obviously was not certified at this time. But I thought, why not just go and audition anyway? And so I went to the gym. I did my little routine for the gym owner. And at the end, she was like, wow, that's really amazing. You're hired. And I was like, awesome. She's like, can I see your certification? And I was like, about that. And she was, you know, this is one of those points in my life that really was a turning point because she believed in me. She paid for my certification. And had she not done that, I really don't think I would have been on the path that I'm on today. So yeah. And I taught at that gym to just a few ladies a time. And then I remember when I got hired at 24-hour fitness, that was such a huge deal to me.

And I was teaching the rooms full of like 50 people. And I remember putting the microphone on and like shaking. Like I was so nervous. But it brought me so much joy because, you know, no matter how you feel when you get into that room, you're there for the people there. And so the energy that you bring to the room and the energy that they give you back by the time you get out of there an hour later, you just feel so good. All right.

So you are doing what you're doing. parents expect you're studying biology, but you're teaching Pilates and it's opening your eyes up to a different world. You're now a fitness instructor. But tell me about what was your plan? While I was in school, because I couldn't stop doodling in the sidelines of my notebook, I was sketching a solution for a problem that I had. So because I was teaching Pilates, I had to bring all this gear to class. I had to bring a yoga mat, keys, CDs, towel, water bottle. And I didn't have a bag to put everything in. And so I decided to make my own. And when I brought that super glam like bow bag with gold chains to class, everyone was like, what is that? I want that. And basically, um, I decided to

find like a tiny, tiny manufacturer in Oakland, actually, um, who would be willing to accept my small order. And I shipped up close out fabrics from downtown LA to have him help me create those bags. And it was that experience, too, that was like, this is something that I really want to do. From what I understand, when you graduated college, you decided to pursue fashion. Yeah, I also dropped out of organic chemistry. It was the last class I needed to take the O-Cham. And I was like, my parents are listening to me. I'm just, you know, they don't listen.

I'm going to do something to make sure that they do listen. And so I dropped out of O-KEM, messed up my entire timeline. And my parents were like, you are bringing so much shame to the family right now. I was like, you know what, I need to live this life for me. And so, yeah, I ended up graduating with an honors in biology because, you know, my parents taught me if you're going to do something, you might as well be the best at it. So I did that anyway. Heart wasn't in it, but I did it.

And then I applied for some programs that would teach me how to become a buyer. Right. To be a fashion buyer. To be a fashion buyer, right? To understand that side of the business. And I actually got accepted into one because that was the closest thing I could get to fashion without having that design degree. But before I moved out there, that bag that I had designed.

Before you moved from L.A. to Boston. To Boston for my first job. I actually did send out a few bags to some magazines, and each one was like gold. And I just prayed that someone would write something about it. And I sent it out. And that yoga bag, just to be clear, it could hold like a mat and like other accessories? Yeah, it could hold your mat, plus. you know, towels, shoes, like everything.

It was like super glamorous and luxurious. And another thing that happened at that time prior to moving out to Boston was that all of my students at 24-hour Fitness were like, well, who's going to teach pop Pilates now? No one is teaching this format. And at the time, I was the only one doing pop music to Pilates. It was normally like classical and very slow. And so I thought, all right, well, why don't I record a short workout video for just these 40 people?

and I'll upload it to this website called YouTube. I don't even know what it was. And I put it there. It was 440 people. And, yeah, that was the beginning of the Bloggalati's channel. Wow. All right, Cassie, let's take a quick break. We're going to be right back more with Cassie Ho.

You're listening to How I Built This Lab. Stick around. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and I'm here with Cassie Ho, the creator of one of YouTube's biggest fan favorite fitness channels, Blagalottis. All right, so you go to Boston. You leave this video behind as a goodbye gift to pursue, you know, this career as a fashion buyer. And that is sort of the direction you're going to head into, I guess, right?

Yeah, I thought I was going to be living my dream career. I thought this was it, and it most definitely was not. I got there, and the culture just was not right for me. But this was the crazy part. I was sitting, this was eight months into my job, completely miserable. And I'm telling you, I would cry before I went to work every day. It was terrible. I get a text from my sister and her finger is pointing to a picture of something that looks like my bag in a magazine. And I ask her, what is that? And she's like, I think your bag is in shape magazine. And I'm like, wait, what? So I run out to the nearest

Target during my lunch break and I'm like sifting through all of the pages. I'm like, oh my gosh, where, where, where, where. And the moment I saw my like no name, nobody bag, like in a real magazine, like I started crying and I was like, this is a sign. I have to go. So, I mean, you had randomly sent out this yoga bag to a bunch of magazines. Shape did have a photo of it in a little feature, but did it have like a link to where you could buy it? Yeah, it actually said the website. It said the website. And the crazy thing was people like typed it in and they actually bought the bag. Like I saw like a teeny uptick in sales. Like it was a sign enough for me to like, let's just go and do this. And so I quit my job the following week. I bought a ticket to China on Friday.

I left on Sunday so that I attend the Canton Fair, which is one of the biggest manufacturing fairs in the world. And I said, I'm going to find my manufacturer and I am going to do this. Because if I don't give myself the 100% chance to succeed, I'm always going to regret this. Like, I would rather fail and fail hard than not know at all what could have been. You essentially get to Boston to pursue this career as a fashion buyer. But meantime, something very strange is happening with this YouTube video that you uploaded. People start to watch it and not just a few people, like tens of thousands of people start to watch this video that you left behind. That's right.

They start to watch the video. Then they start asking for a butt version and an ab version and an arm version. And so in my free time when I wasn't at work or on the weekends, I would film a little video for those people. And I really didn't even understand what fans were, what subscribers were. But it was like a little hobby that I did on the side. But just to be clear, you were not thinking, I'm going to really pursue fitness and building a fitness business. It was like, I think there's legs to this pleaded yoga bag. that could turn into a business.

Oh, yeah. I was not thinking that Bloggalades was going to be the business. It was always going to be my designs. And I really was just doing that. Bloggalleties was like on the side for fun. That's what it was because it kept me entertained. And it was literally a blog. It started with the blog.

Oh, actually, no. It started with that first YouTube video that I uploaded for my students in L.A. And then people online were like, well, what do you eat? I'm like, okay, fine. So I just like write about it. So then I wrote about it. And then my blog started drawing a lot of traffic. And it really was like an open diary. So yeah, I started sharing parts of my life online. And it was really fun in the beginning. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because Pilates today in 2022 is much bigger than it was in 2010 when you, you know, when you launched Bloggalotti's roughly around 2010. 2009 is when I uploaded that first video. And do you think in a sense, because at that time it was a bit more niche, that you actually found an opportunity to have a voice in the world of Pilates because maybe it just wasn't as big as it is now? So I don't think that Blagalates became big because of Pilates.

I think it has continued to stay relevant because of the way I teach and am able to connect with my students. I mean, I'm good at Pilates. I like doing it, so that's what I'm teaching. But whether I'm teaching how to cook or how to dance, like whatever it is, it's about that connection, that friendship that you're fostering with people. And so, yeah, Pilates wasn't that big back then. It's still not super huge today. But the beautiful thing about Blagalates and the workout videos that I put out is that they're all equipment-free.

So it creates a low barrier to. entry and a lot of girls who were just like me when I was 16 doing this DVD in my bedroom all shy by myself because I don't even know what a gym is or how to get a membership. Like you start to build confidence. And so what I found is that Blagalates is kind of like the gateway into fitness for people to get a feel for what this is, begin to understand their body, what it's craving, and get stronger than, you know, maybe move on to different things. Like I've met fans who started with Blagalottis and now they're a professional bodybuilder.

It's such a beautiful community. At what point did it become clear to you that this blog and the videos that you were making was the thing that actually people wanted? Was the thing that you could actually focus your attention on? Was it a moment when you had a certain number of views? Do you remember what that tipping point was? I do remember the tipping point and it wasn't so much on the content side. It was never the views or the followers. It was more how it translated into merchandise. So I remember in probably like 2011 on Facebook, fans were asking, hey, we want to buy a shirt. And I'm like, what kind of shirt? And they're like one that says blog a lot is on it. And I was like, you want a shirt with my screen name on it? Why would you want that? Like go buy this yoga bug. That's a real brand. And then I held a little design contest and we like ended up printing these shirts on like some rib shirts that I bought at Forever 21. And I remember posting it on Facebook

and they like completely sold out within like a couple minutes. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like people actually want this. And so I tried like another design. I tried another. And that for me, that was the moment I knew this was a brand and that I was able to sell something because people wanted to become a part of the journey, the story, and they really trusted me as an instructor and hopefully at that point beginning to trust me as a designer as well. At that point in 2011, when you start to think about making a product, a T-shirt, did you start to think, I mean, I, you know, I imagine maybe not, but I don't know, did you start to think, you know, this is a business. This could be my business. I think I always just kept serving the fans. If they asked for a bottle, I would try to make a bottle.

And then it got to a point where like, and I had moved back to California at this point because I had quit my job and I wasn't really making any money. And so I had to move back into my parents' house. And I remember we were shipping out of their garage. And then it started growing to a point where it was like, okay, now I'm selling 30,000 bottles a month of one design. Wow. And we had to get a warehouse. Like, like, it just kept growing and growing and growing. And the things I was designing, like, people wanted it.

It was so crazy. All right. So you are back in L.A. And you've got this growing business, well, or this growing brand and fan base. At which point did you realize that you needed help, that you could not do this on your own. When we moved to the warehouse, my parents agreed to help me in the beginning, just to like get that set up. And then later as Blagallotti's and Popplex started to grow, I needed to hire a team around me to help, you know, do more obviously. And that was probably

around 2013-14. It sounds like your parents came around that they clearly were at that point supportive, even though you didn't become a doctor or a lawyer? They began to be supportive, but prior to seeing those bottles being sold like crazy, it was constantly, when are you getting a master's? When are you going back to school? So they were supportive, but the thing with our family or maybe Asian families is that it's still never enough. I wonder when you began to really grow and

scale. I mean, today you've got 6.25 million subscribers to the channel and you've had over a billion views. But, you know, as you were growing, what explains it? Was it just organic word of mouth? I mean, did you have any, did you use any specific strategies to grow your audience? The strategy that has worked for me for the past 13 years is really the intention. And from the beginning from that first YouTube video, my intention was to connect with my students. And because I started in a time when there wasn't ad revenue, there weren't sponsorships, there was no like being famous and having followers. You just like, you did things because you did it and you connected with the people. I think that has really allowed me to stay relevant this entire time. But also in terms of like,

was there a viral video or something that really pushed me? Like, no, there wasn't. Actually, it was like really steady growth. And because, I'm also willing to change with the times and change with the algorithms and change platforms or explore platforms so that you don't become stagnant. And I remember like just a few years ago prior to the pandemic, TikTok was becoming a thing. I had no idea how to use it. But I went on there and I gained a whole new following. I have like 2.8 million on there now. And when I joined TikTok and I was teaching Pilates and workouts, there were so many people being like, oh, Oh, a tricep dip? That's so cool. Like, it was new to them. And I actually saw that audience transfer over to my YouTube channel and actually decrease the age of my average audience.

Like, you have to keep exploring and trying and not being afraid to fail. Otherwise, you're going to get stuck. All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll hear more from Cassie about the Blockolotti's business. Stay with us. You're listening to how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. It's Guy Raz here with Cassie Ho. We're talking about how she built what would become this incredible fitness empire around Pilates, Blagallotti's products and amazing content. We'll get there in a moment. Cassie, one of the things that you've done throughout your career in continue to do is you make virtually all your content.

Your videos are free, right? So anybody can go to Blagallates and search for a fitness video. and it's free. From the beginning, were you thinking, yeah, I'm just going to make this free and we'll figure it out later? Did anybody ever, especially as you started growing popularity, did you ever have people coming to you and saying,

hey, Cassie, you know, you've got to start putting this behind a paywall or create a subscriber service or things like that? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So many people would tell me that. Other trainers would be like, why aren't you making people pay for this? They need to pay for it. And, like, interestingly enough,

those people who told me that still don't have an audience. It's like for me, it's like the workout videos are to connect. And for me, also the marketing, right? Like I'm using my mats. I'm using my bags in the videos. And like people see that and they also want it. But I'm creating content that is either that is valuable to people or shareable to people or entertaining to people.

And that is what helps you grow and connect. And then once you're able to make that trustworthy relationship, then maybe they want to explore you a little bit more. a little bit deeper into your world. But blog audience has grown a lot because of the free content. So really the videos were a vehicle to build out other things. In other words, the videos were, in a sense, an engagement tool. But I imagine that today, with all of the views you receive, it's also a source of revenue for your business. I mean, through the advertising. Okay. So you want to hear a crazy stat? Yeah. Okay. My ad revenue from YouTube,

makes up just 1% of all the revenue that I make. Wow. Mm-hmm. With a billion views across your channels, that's unbelievable. Yeah. So YouTube really can't sustain your business at all. We've heard this in the past, but clearly cannot sustain your business, because how many people work for you or work in your business and your company?

I have 12 full-time employees, and we work with about 30 to 40 contractors on the daily. Yeah. So you can't sustain that if one. percent of your revenue is coming from YouTube. No, absolutely not. So it's amazing. I mean, given that you've had all those views on YouTube, in a sense, you clearly, it sounds like you recognize pretty early on that YouTube was not going to be the driver

of revenue, but YouTube is going to be an incredible engagement tool because through YouTube, you've been able to, obviously, you're known as a fitness instructor, you've written a book about it, but you have a whole product line that's available at Target. You've got this whole business called Popflex, where you sell apparel that you design and stationary and accessories, equipment. I mean, so it's like, I guess, it's a multi-channel, right? This multi-stream of different things that you offer all built around this core free content. Right. I built my audience on the free content. Most people know me as a fitness instructor.

I've changed people's lives and bodies through it. And that will always be the core, too. And I don't think my business would be as big as it is right now without that home base that YouTube gave me. But now I have this opportunity to transform my content as well. And it's seeming like that's what people are wanting as well. So it's just really interesting how it's changed because I've been in this industry so long and you'll see people get really big, really fast. And then you'll see them, you know, I have personal chats with people and they'll say like, like, oh, the algorithm's working against me.

It doesn't like me anymore. But the truth is nobody knows what the algorithm is. You just have to keep evolving so that you stay relevant. And for me, like, maybe it's that immigrant mentality that my parents raised me with. Like, you just have to keep trying, like, keep going. Like, that's why I just, I never stop trying to change things up. And it keeps it fun for me, too. You know, in this world, and as you started to get bigger and bigger and more well-known,

you're putting yourself out there, which you have to do. But with that comes the inevitable meanness of, unfortunately, of social media and the world we live in and criticism. And some of it might come from, quote-unquote, legitimate sources, right? Like there might have been criticism from people who were fitness instructors and may have said, this isn't real fitness or this isn't a real exercise regime. And then they were the, you know, just the trolls who are saying, oh, I don't like what you're wearing or whatever they might say. How did you, how did you deal with that? It's hard. It's hard for any of us to deal with that kind of abuse and even criticism. What was your method for coping with it? I'm still trying to figure out

how to deal with it. I'm a very emotional and sensitive. person and it still hurts me. And yeah, like it's interesting because having been in the public eye for 13 years now and having been on different platforms, I see the same cycles happening on every platform. Every platform goes through an innocent, sweet phase where everyone's cool because I don't even know what's going on. And then it eventually reaches a point where there's drama and people want to make videos about you to gain traction or get clicks. And it's happened to me on every single platform and every time it hurts just as much. But how do I deal with it? I just have to remember that what I'm doing is true to me. I'm not here to hurt anybody, regardless of what lies they're

trying to spread. And at the end of the day, there are way more people that I'm impacting positively than negatively. And the negative ones, I mean, that's a story that they want to spin. And I just can't dwell on that. And it's really hard. I mean, when you get a negative comment or negative videos about you, like, you can't stop thinking about it. So I'm still working on how to have a tougher heart, but I'm just sensitive in my soul. And so it's something that's really difficult for me. Yeah. I have been able to spin criticism or just hate comments in my favor a few times in my life now. And one of them, I remember being so upset about the way people were attacking my body, that I screenshot at all of them

and I created a video about okay, well, what if I Photoshop my body to exactly how you wanted me to look like? And I had those words pop on screen as I made my waist smaller, my boobs bigger, my butt bigger. And that video went crazy viral. And people love that. They love seeing you

defy this negativity and this hate. And so I guess that's one of the ways that I've dealt with it. But let me tell you, it is hard when I have to go look at those comments because I'm searching for something that I need to use in my video. Like, it's really, really hard, but I have to go in with like a steel heart and just like, take a deep breath and be like, okay, let's do this.

If you were to, you know, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot from people who are trying to break into this world, right? Because you essentially created your own media company and through that media company built a fashion brand. You wanted to get into fashion. You did indeed. You picked the third career, the failure, right? Not lawyer, not back to not failure. And here you are. Quite a successful failure. But you really built it on a media company that is yours.

And you didn't have to go through a legacy media company to do that. A lot of people are interested in doing a version of that today because you can do that through TikTok and through YouTube and whatever else emerges over the next five years that we don't even know about yet. When people do come to you and say, I want to do this, where do I start? start. What do you say? The start has to be with your intention. You have to stay true to that. What is your why? I mean, whether it's a fitness journey, a career journey, whatever you're pursuing, you have to know your why. Because when things get really hard, you have to be able to fall back on that and let it pull you out. That's number one. Secondly, if you're going to be creating content, what value are you providing to other people? People aren't just going to watch you to watch

like maybe some people, like some really cute people, like yeah, maybe. But if you're going to build a brand, you're going to be giving something to people that's either entertaining, it's shareable, it's educational, like something. And that expertise is what's also going to allow you to create a service or a product one day when people want to get in deeper with you. So, I mean, that would be my advice. I know it's like kind of a higher level, but like if you can answer those questions, then you're on the right path. You know, I'm curious, Cassie, because part of your business is built around you and your personality and your appeal, right? And so I wonder when you think about where you take your business, right, because it is a business.

And of course, it's a community, but it's a business. Do you think about what it looks like without Cassie Ho involved with it one day? Because at some point, maybe you want to move on. You want to sell it or you want to do something. something else. We can't scale ourselves as individuals, right? So do you think about that? Do you think about ways that you can continue to grow your brand and your business beyond you as a personality? I think about that every single day, and it's actually one of my goals to be able to grow my brands without my influence. Of course, it's leaning on me right now, but my goal is for Popplex,

especially to become a legacy brand that lives on past when I die, like for hundreds of years. And I want that same ethos of like helping women find the joy of fitness, like to still be there. I need to figure out how to make that happen. But I think if I continue with the innovation, really testing the limits of fashion and pairing it with fitness, like we will get there. So yeah, I think about that every single day. Cassio, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me, Guy. Hey, thanks so much for listening to How I Built This Lab.

Please do follow us on your podcast app so you always have the latest episode downloaded. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at How I Built This and mine is at Guy Raz. And on Instagram, I'm at guy.org. If you want to contact the team, our email address is hibt at ID.wondery.com. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with editing, by John Isabella. Our music was composed by Rumtin Arablui. Our audio engineer was Neil Rauch. Our production team at How I Built This includes Alex Chung, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, J.C. Howard, Liz Metzger, Josh Lash, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, and Carrie Thompson.

Our intern is Margaret Serino. Neva Grant is our supervising editor. Beth Donovan is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.