How I Built This with Guy Raz - Live From The HIBT Summit: Brené Brown

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

We have another episode from the 2021 How I Built This Virtual Summit, and it's Guy's interview with professor, author, and host of the Unlocking Us podcast, Brené Brown. In this live conversation, Brené talks about how vulnerability is vital for good leadership, and how she sees gratitude as a driving force for improving office culture. We'll be releasing more episodes from the Summit throughout the month of August, so keep checking your podcast feed.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Airbnb.ca.ca. slash host. Hey everyone, welcome to another special edition of How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. Today, we're releasing the second main stage interview from our How I Built This Summit, which happened virtually back in May. And today's episode is from my conversation about leadership with Bray Brown. She's a professor, author, and host of the podcast Unlocking Us. And if you've seen Bernay's TED Talks or listened to her podcasts or read her books, you might be familiar with her recommended ingredients for good leadership, bravery, trust, gratitude, and, of course, vulnerability. Over the past 10 years, her research and ideas about vulnerability have really changed the way many people think about what makes a good leader.

Instead of a weakness, it can actually be your greatest strength. But before Brunay became known for her research around vulnerability, she grew up in the suburbs of Houston, Texas, where she says vulnerability wasn't something that was valued at all. I remember very early thinking to myself, if I can understand the connection between people's thinking and their emotions and how they're going to behave, show up, that is going to be better for me. That gives me some predictive control over

environments that I'm not comfortable. I mean, I, from a very early age, couldn't figure out where I belonged or fit. I couldn't figure out who were my people. And I loved my family. My family loved me, but I was clearly different than them. I was an introvert. We didn't have that language back then. And so, you know, if you wanted to eat at a restaurant, you need to look the way around the eye in order. And if you weren't comfortable doing that, you must stop hungry like it was a tough kind of a tough texas upbringing zero vulnerability ironically but maybe not you um you've written about about this and about your kind of rebellious teenage years and then um your 20s when you struggled with with alcohol and eventually you got sober and and and you joined

aa um and you describe both your your time um as an alcoholic and then getting sober as this major time of vulnerability in your life for discovering vulnerability, beginning to discover it. What do you remember about becoming attuned to vulnerability? Well, I remember going to an AA meeting for the first time. I mean, I'm just two weeks ago, just celebrated 25 years sober, so this was a long time ago. Wow. And I remember someone telling me after the meeting, I went to dinner afterwards with like a quick sponsor you're supposed to make.

I'm a rule follower. And she's like, listen, you need to quit drinking. You need to quit working so much. You need to quit emotionally eating. You have like a poo-poo platter of addictions, just a little bit of everything. And I was like, holy shit, what am I going to do with my time? I'm like, what's left? But I just kind of tried to do all of them at one time a little bit.

Quit smoking, quit drinking, got a great therapist. And I think what I realized is probably I would have ended up in a vulnerability anonymous meeting had that been an option. I just think anything that I could use to outrun or outsmart feeling uncertain and at risk and out of control was my thing. Of course, everyone watching and knows that vulnerability became really the central. theme, a central theme in your research shame as well at the University of Houston where you have an academic appointment. And you began early on in your research, going back to when you were doing a PhD, you began to see how critical it was for leaders, for all of us, really, to understand the powerful emotions that play out in the decisions we make. And basically,

you came to understand or realize that vulnerability isn't a weakness but a strength. How did you come to that view? You know, it's been a really weird journey. And I think almost all of us were raised to believe that it's really important to be courageous with our lives. But at the same time, most of us were taught that vulnerability is weakness. So on one hand, we're supposed to be brave. And on the other hand, we're supposed to never be vulnerable. You know, and vulnerability has, you know, we just crossed, you know, just cross the 500,000 pieces of data mark in our research. And vulnerability has a very simple definition

driven by the data. It's uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is the emotion that we experience when we're, we feel risk, we're at risk, we're emotionally exposed, or we're uncertain. The really hard part, and I think this is part of the midlife reckoning, so everyone from their late 30s till we die, at some point we've got to reconcile that we will never truly be courageous if we're never willing to be vulnerable. I think when you help people understand what vulnerability is and what it isn't, and then we reflect on courageous moments, in our lives, that's when we truly understand that vulnerability is the path to courage. It's the greatest measure of courage.

In fact, if I wanted to give you an instrument to measure your level of courage, I would literally be assessing your capacity for vulnerability. You know, it's so interesting to me because if you looked at how we assessed leadership in the 90s, for example, especially in corporate America, people looked to, you. Jack Welch, you know, this hard driving, fist-pounding leader. And not to disparage Jack Welch, but I think with all due respect, he would not be held up as a paragon today in corporate America because today it is all about transparency and vulnerability and meeting people where they are. But I wonder how you think that transition began to happen because it's a relatively

recent phenomenon. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I wish I could say it's because we're a kinder, gentler people, but that's not the case. The case is really straightforward. Its performance is the issue. You know, the Welchian approach to performance is higher, fire, higher, fire. And there's just carnage from that. But there's not just people's lives that are ruined.

there's no consistent, predictable performance. So I wish I, again, I wish I could say, well, we've come to understand people better. And I think we have. But at least in tandem is the fact that people are our most valuable resource. I mean, people, without people, we've got nothing. And so you have to think about, you know, what makes people work. And what makes us work is feeling trust, feeling valued, understanding how what we do everything, every day ties to something greater.

And so I think it's a combination, hopefully, of understanding people and valuing people more, but it's also about performance. How do you, I mean, there's no question that, and you know this through our interviews, I ask, when people come onto how I built this, before, they come on, we do a call and I say, I'm going to need you to surrender. You know, this is going to be a different kind of interview. We want to have a seat in the cockpit of your mind and retrace your life story. And that's going to require vulnerability.

It's not easy for everybody. It's easier for some people. It's easier for maybe me and maybe you and maybe some people watching. But how do you start? How does somebody start to do this? that. Well, the first question is, what's the fear? If we want to talk about the opposite of courage as armor, what is the armor? What is driving the self-protection? I mean, it is really one of the developmental milestones of midlife to really understand how did we self-protection. How did we

self-protect as children because we didn't belong, we didn't fit in, things were hard, we didn't get everything we needed. What kind of armor did we find when we were young to self-protect? And at some point in midlife, it is our task to say, what no longer serves? What kind of armor am I wearing? What kind of behaviors are, am I engaging in that were self-protective at one point, but now are getting in the way of me growing into who to being the parent, the professional, the partner that I want to be. Because it's not just leadership and courage. You know, vulnerability is the birthplace of love, of belonging, of intimacy, of innovation, of creativity, accountability. The most vulnerable emotion we experience is joy.

Joy can be almost terrifying for us because we're so afraid that if we let ourselves lean into it or feel it, we will be sucker punched by pain or disappointment. Yes. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

I call it promoting joy. I ask parents all the time. You know, how many parents have ever stood over their child while they were sleeping and thought, oh, my God, I love you like I didn't know is possible. And then in that split second pictured something horrific happening. to their child. And the answer is about 95% of parents because we trick ourselves into believing that if we dress, rehearse tragedy, then when something bad happens, it will hurt us less.

And the truth is that you can't prepare for that, but you can certainly squander joy. And that in itself is very risky because it's actually. actually joy that helps us build resilience, moments of joy. It is, it's such a measure of how how well we can handle our own vulnerability. So now, you know, I'll tell you for people listening and watching us tonight that the antidote to that is actually, we found in the research, the folks who can lean fully into joy have one thing. in common. My hypothesis was spirituality, but I was wrong. It was actually gratitude. Wow. So in those moments where we experience joy, some of us use it as kind of a warning system to

practice, to dress, rehearse tragedy. But others in a more mindful way, use that little quiver to remind themselves to be grateful for what's in front of them. I keep thinking about there There are moments, I think we all experience this, whether we're parents or as leaders, where something amazing is happening. You know, I see this on our show where I look at the team and they're just so incredible. They're so good at what they do. They're working at the highest levels. And I do feel that incredible sense of gratitude.

And those are the moments where I'm actually operating at my peak as a leader. I mean, that is the most beautiful way to put it. I see this all the time in leaders I work with. They refuse to celebrate small moments and small achievements out of the fear that if they do that, people will take their foot off the gas. If we stop and celebrate and we're grateful at this moment, people will slow down. Well, we don't have a shred of evidence. We have zero data that show when we recognize people, when we're grateful, when we celebrate a moment,

that people stop working hard. In fact, all the data say the opposite, the data say that when we slow down, show gratitude, celebrate small moments, it actually prevents burnout. And people redouble their commitment to work. And it's such an important point making the connection between joy and vulnerability

because it's not a connection that many of us make. But I think a lot of people think of showing vulnerability is like a circle where you're all crying and everybody is hugging each other. That's not what it's about. That's not what you're talking about. No. In fact, I'll tell you this really short story. So I'm giving a talk to a group of relatively new CEOs who have received funding. And I'm getting ready to kind of walk out and a guy comes up to me and says, oh, my God, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid on vulnerability. And so that's my first flag.

My first flag is awful metaphor and yikes. And so I'm kind of stealing myself for what's coming next. And he said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm just going to lean into vulnerability. And I'm just going to tell, I'm going to tell the investors, I'm going to tell my employees, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm in over my head. And we are bleeding money.

And I kept thinking he had to have gone to the bathroom or something during the part where I said like vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability. It's, you know, it's oversharing. It's like desperation. And I said, he said, what do you think will happen if I do that? And I said, I think you'll never see another dollar of funding. And I think that the employees that followed you into this business that you're so passionate about will feel. completely betrayed and probably hate your guts. But the thing about this story that I think is important is with whom do you share this? You know, vulnerability is not disclosure. Vulnerability is the skill and ability to lean into uncertainty and risk and emotional exposure in a way that allows you to maintain productive, forward thinking strategy. And so he needs to sit across from someone and get help, but it's probably not the investors at this point, and it's definitely not the employees.

Does, I mean, in order for a leader to show the kind of vulnerability that is necessary to perform at a high level, I imagine the environment in which they operate has to be an environment of mutual trust, which, is not always the case in all workplaces. You know, a lot of times folks will call me in to come work with the leadership team for very specific reasons. Sometimes there's a real lack of creativity and innovation happening. Sometimes people are going through, companies going through massive change, digital transformation. So the first question I always ask, first of all, I never ask the leaders. I always talk to people in the organization. Is this a culture where armor is either required or rewarded. And if the answer is, oh, God, yes, we have to wear armor here. We have to wear armor here to keep our jobs. We have to wear armor here to survive. Or,

yes, of course, they reward exhaustion and perfectionism. And, you know, of course, then it's really easy for me to go to leadership and say, this is a culture change project. This isn't me talking to your folks. This is you changing the culture. And so this is especially true when we start talking about women, black employees, people of color, where is it safe to be vulnerable? Or as a woman, am I already fighting a fight every single day where I have to keep my armor on because of how I'm treated? And the hard thing is like, you know, if there's a fear of failure, if there's a fear of mistakes. That's a choice, but do not expect high levels of innovation and creativity, because those things are mutually exclusive. When we come back in just a moment, more from

Brune Brown about vulnerability and privilege and how trauma can impact our ability to be vulnerable. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to an excerpt for my conversation about leadership with Brne Brown from the How I Built This Virtual Summit held back in May. And Bray says it's not always easy for people to be vulnerable, specifically when we consider the role of trauma. The first and probably most devastating casualty of trauma is the ability or willingness to be vulnerable. When we survive trauma, either a one-time trauma or ongoing trauma, vulnerability becomes very precarious, very difficult, if not impossible.

And I see this a lot when working with veterans. You know, veterans are like, vulnerability equals death. Like we literally say, secure the vulnerable perimeter or we'll die. And now I'm home and I can't be in a room with my children. I'm not talking to my partner. I can't be in connection with other human beings. And that's because there is no capacity or willingness to be vulnerable because of that trauma. What we don't understand fully, I don't think all of us, and I think it's becoming more clear, is racism is trauma. White supremacy is trauma. Poverty is trauma. Discrimination and harassment trauma. And so what is very difficult is, is that just because vulnerability is more dangerous and more difficult because of your identity

doesn't mean you require less of it in order to lean into your full humanity. And so we really as leaders have a responsibility to create real belonging. and real brave spaces. So that vulnerability is not a privilege of a few people. It's so interesting because I keep thinking about the name of one of your podcasts, unlocking us. And it seems to me hearing you right now that vulnerability is like a key. it's like a key to unlocking all kinds of things. And as you say, it doesn't come easy to everybody,

but leaders can create an environment in which people can feel safe, comfortable, supported by unlocking that door. Yes, in very intentional, hard-thought ways. I've never seen it. and an organization where representation is not a priority. I wonder, Brune, is toughness compatible with vulnerability? Can you be both?

You can't be tough if you can't be vulnerable. Vulnerability is a prerequisite for toughness. I'll tell you what toughness is. Toughness is I made a mistake. I made a bad call. I didn't collect enough data before I made the decision. It costs us a lot of money. It costs us a lot of work.

I apologize. I've learned. We need to lean in and fix it. And we need to embed this learning in our culture so we don't make the same mistake again. That's toughness. Toughness is, I hear what you're saying and I appreciate it. I'm not going to be able to take that on right now unless you help me reprioritize the other things on my plate. toughness is, I understand this is important to you, but we are family first and family second here.

And you've got a mom going into chemotherapy. And what's okay is to prioritize taking care of her. What's not okay is to pretend like you don't need help right now and not allow your team to support in a way that is manageable and strategic while you're going to be out. toughness is leaning into hard conversations. Toughness is understanding that clear is kind and unclear is unkind. It's choosing to do what you believe is right over being liked. It's taking a stand and you know your brand is going to take a lot of shit for that stand, but you also know that it's the right thing to do.

So there is no toughness without vulnerability. How important in your view, even in the earliest phases of someone's leadership journey, is it to bake vulnerability into your leadership ethos? You can understand why a leader might not want to focus on vulnerability initially, but do you think that actually is a priority from the very beginning? Only if you want to succeed. Like, yeah. we would use a continuum in our work of daring leadership versus armored leadership. So daring leadership is courageous leadership, the capacity to be able to stay in vulnerability instead of tapping out, to know your values and live into them, to build trust,

and to be able to get back up after you get your ass kick, which you will many times as an entrepreneur. I think a entrepreneur, and someone who's in a startup asking themselves, should I be vulnerable? Too late. You just started a business. Too late. You're already vulnerable, so learn how to do it well. So let's look at some of the big markers. Number one, being a knower and being right is armored leadership. Being a learner and being committed to getting it right, that's vulnerable. That's daring leadership. So if you want to be a learner, if you are committed to curiosity, if you're committed to getting it right versus being right, you've got to be vulnerable. Tapping out of hard conversations.

It's so hard, but that's vulnerable. You know, and what is the alternative? You tap out of them. You don't talk to people. You talk about them. Like, that's not leadership. One of the biggest mistakes that I see, you know, don't start a business if you are not willing to skill up around having tough conversations. I'm going to make a statement here and I'm open to being disproved.

I think it's been much harder for leaders to lead at the highest levels or to lead as their best selves in the era of video. leadership, Zoom leadership over the past year and a half, I think it's been really, really hard. And I'm sure that you have been asked to help. How have the leaders you've talked to navigated their leadership journeys through this medium, trying to lead large or medium or small teams through a camera? Oh, it's been hard. It's been really hard. It's been hard.

It's been hard for me. and I feel like I have a pretty, pretty stocked toolbox. I can't even tell you that over the past year, I don't think I've had a single meeting with a group of leaders where people weren't crying by the end of it, myself included sometimes. It's been very difficult, and I'll tell you, the people who've done well at some point through the past 14 or 15 months,

the leaders, and I'm talking big, Fortune 10 companies are the leaders who said, Jesus, I just got to pay attention to my people. I have to help my people. And I need to make sure that when we come out of this, my folks are still standing. And the people who did that, the people who either didn't have to shift because they went into this with that already as a mindset, I think did pretty well, but they would also probably tell you it was the hardest year. The people that were willing to make that shift, I think they'll never be the same again. And that's a beautiful, wonderful, important thing. And I think the people that could not make that transition, I don't think they're doing well right now. And I don't think

they're going to, I don't think they are actually retaining the people that most of us would really fight to retain. You know, I'm curious, Bray, because I mean, you are an academic, you're a scholar, a researcher, but you also are an entrepreneur. What do you struggle with as a leader? I mean, you're the leadership person. We come to you. You are, I think one time you described yourself as the shame action figure, right? We come to you for these things, right? What do you struggle with? I think my greatest struggle, to be honest with you, is I'm a maker more than I'm a manager. And kind of my source code is research and creativity. And so trying to lead and manage teams when I have to have really uninterrupted time to create and research and write feels like

the unsolvable for me most of the time. And so I think that's hard. And I just have this incredible team. And I mean, they will say things to me like the way that you showed up in that meeting this morning felt really off. I think you were outside of your values. Then I'll cry by myself, get my shit together, think it through. think about what I learned, think about why I was showing up that way, apologize, and do it different. You know, I'm curious about something, Renee, I was thank you for having me on your podcast last year.

It was so fun. I had such a good time being interviewed by you. You're so good at it. And, I mean, after interviewing people for years and years and years with your research, I'm not surprised. And you actually asked me to answer the question, what is one piece of leadership advice that I've been given that's so remarkable that I need to share it or so bad that I need to warn people about. But I didn't get to ask you that same question. So what is one piece of leadership advice that you've been given? I'm sure you've been given a lot and you've given out a lot to other people. but what's one, maybe two, that is either indispensable or maybe so bad that people should not, should avoid it. Curiosity is a big construct in my research, and it's a core value for me.

But I just did this podcast with Michael Bungay Stannier, and it was how to get out of advice giving and kind of how to tame our advice giving monster. And I think sometimes I think, because people come to me a lot for advice, sometimes I think it can become how I feel like I add value. He really deconstructed some of that. Like, mostly our advice kind of sucks. When you go into advice giving mode, you're really sending a message that you don't have the answer and I do. And so one thing that he said that I have found indispensable is stay curious just. a little longer. And so I live by Be Curious, but stay curious just a little bit longer than what I'm

comfortable staying curious has been a game changer for me. Stay quiet. Just that extra pause. Ask one more question. And that's been huge for me because I will tell you, I don't believe great transformative leaders have answers. But the most stunning moments of leadership that I've ever witnessed have been observing the questions that great leaders ask people. That's where great leadership really shines. So I'm going to go with a remarkable piece of advice, which is stay curious, just a little bit longer, even than you think you need to be. That's Brne Brown, professor, author, and host of the Unlocking Us podcast. You've been listening to my live conversation about leadership from the How I Built This

2021 Virtual Summit. More conversations like this one from the How I Built This Summit will be in your feed soon. You will not want to miss those, so please keep an eye on your podcast feed. This episode was produced by Farah Safari with music composed by Rumtina Arablui. It was edited by Casey Herman. Our production staff for the summit includes Neva Grant, Julia Carni. Liz Metzger, Janet Ujung Lee, Annalise Ober, Gianna Capadona, John Isabella, Ali Prescott, Joanna Polovska, and Jessica Goldstein.

Our intern is Harrison V.J. Choi. And Jeff Rogers is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This for NPR.