How I Built This with Guy Raz - Live From The HIBT Summit: Cynt Marshall, Chieh Huang, and Sadie Lincoln on Leadership

Episode Date: June 24, 2021

Our first episode from the 2021 How I Built This Virtual Summit is from our leadership panel with Cynt Marshall, CEO of the Dallas Mavericks, Chieh Huang, CEO and co-founder of Boxed, and Sadie Lincoln, CEO and co-founder of Barre3. In this conversation with Guy, the panel talks about the importance of showing vulnerability, and how leaders can build trust within their teams. We'll be releasing more episodes from the Summit, so keep checking your podcast feed.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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at Airbnb.ca.ca. slash host. Hey, everyone, it's Guy here and welcome to a very special edition of how I built this. So, as you might have heard a few weeks ago back in May, we held our first ever live How I Built This Virtual Summit. Most of the time, we do it in person, but for obvious reasons we had to go virtual this year, but still more than 3,000 people from around the world attended. And all this summer, we're going to be releasing some of our conversations from the summit on the podcast, and some of those conversations were absolutely incredible. And today, we've got one of those discussions. It was a panel on leadership with three inspiring CEOs and founders, all of whom have been on how I built this in the past.

You're going to hear from St. Marshall, the CEO of the Dallas Mavericks, the co-finding founder and CEO of Boxed Che Wong and Sadie Lincoln, the CEO and co-founder of the fitness brand Bar 3. And to kick things off, I asked each of them to think back to a time earlier in their careers before they were actually leaders themselves. Let me start by asking all of you. Do you remember a moment over the course of your career when you began to form your understanding of what a leader is, And how do you define that today? Let me start with you, CENT. Yes, and it was actually very early in my career when I started out supervising operators way back in the day, guy.

You know, I started out at AT&T. I remember the moment when I had these 10 evening operators asked me to, you know, change some of our policies because it was back in the day when they had to even get permission to go take a break or to go to the rest of. restroom. And I remember listening to them that night and, you know, learning the process and, you know, what they want it done. And then we came up with the plan. I took it to my boss. She was hesitant at first, but then she let us do it and just kind of took the risk. I was brand new. I mean, I was brand new. I was just a few months into my job. I was 21 years old. And that's when I kind of, you know, I go by these three else that my job as a leader is to listen to the people,

learn from the people and love the people. It really goes back that far. That's what I actually. we did then. So I remember the moment very well. Wow. Che, how about you? When did you begin to form your understanding of what it means to be a leader? And how do you define that? When I was first year at a law firm, we had just pulled an all-nighter for some transaction we were working on. So here I was 20-something years old, hadn't slept in like, you know, 27, 30 hours. And so sitting there trying to stare at documents. And the lead partner that was on that transaction came down to where the lowly first year said, and kind of put his hand on shoulders and said, you know, how are you guys holding up?

You know, you guys look like you could use some coffee and hot chocolate and breakfast. And went downstairs, took our order and went down to the coffee shop and brought it back to us. And I just, at that moment, maybe it was me being delirious because I was awake for so long. But I just remember, wow, like such a small thing, that empathy that someone showed as a leader meant so much. Sadie, how about you? My first instinct is to answer, and I feel like this is cheating, but it's true. I'm still learning what it is to be a leader. I feel like for me, leadership is a practice, not a destination for sure. I learn every day what it is to be a leader. One of the things that's helped me immensely as a leader is to learn more about myself, to learn where my inherent strength lies, and then to stand up for that and support it in the best way I know. possible and that's most of the time by surrounding myself with people who fill kind of where I miss. Yeah. And also respect where I'm strong. I love that. Che, let me come back to you.

You founded Box. It's it for those who don't know, it's an online retailer that specializes in packaged goods. It's sort of like Costco, but it comes to your door and it's a really cool company. When you launched it, you were doing it out of like a garage in New Jersey, right? And of course, You did everything at first. You were packing the boxes. You were taping them shut. It was physical work. It was hard work.

But I remember you telling me how much you loved it. But of course, as the company grew and now you're a much bigger company, you had to start to manage the people who were doing that work that you had been doing. How did you move from worker to leader? It was really difficult for years, even after. we had raised a lot of money and we had like a corporate office environment, I was still, you could find me in my spare time just packing boxes on the floor. And even today, people joke whenever I walk the floor, they're like, you know, you can't pack a box anymore. And I'm always warning them like, don't let me get online. I'll show you guys. But the reality

is I'd probably be the slowest packer out there today. I remember an investor had called me and said, hey, some of the other folks said, you're still packing boxes. And I was like, yeah, I thought it was a positive. I was like, I like to be with their troops. I'm still on the front line. I'm doing this every single day. But at that moment, the investor basically told me that you need to stop that because for every moment you are there packing a box, you're actually doing the company a disservice because you've graduated past that. You now have hundreds of people in your charge and you need to do the things that they can't do themselves and that they, that you're in the best position to do. And that's lead the company. So whether it's setting strategy, whether it's

raising more money, whether it's working on marketing, those are the things that you need to focus on. for you to really benefit those on the front lines. And that really stuck with me. And so at that moment, I felt like I graduated out of kind of the physical world of picking and packing boxes. Yeah. Sadie, when you started Bar 3, and for those of you who are not familiar with Bar 3, it's an exercise studio. It's a form of exercise combining yoga and Pilates and a lot of core work. It's a really cool program. And, Sadie, you founded it in Portland, Oregon. But you actually decided to expand pretty quickly. And then you brought in other owners, franchise owners, who you had to kind of train in the culture of Bar 3. I love that you talk about leadership

as an ongoing process. I think that's exactly right. But when you started out, right, I mean, people probably look to you for guidance. How did you start to figure out how to do that, how to present as a leader? I didn't consciously think, okay, how am I going to be a leader? I showed up true every single day. I think I attracted people who were already interested in what we were doing and had a deep understanding of Bar 3 before I really needed to train them. And so it was, for me, it was more of an investigation about what do you see in Bar 3? Like, how do you think this could grow? What would this look like in your community in Bend, Oregon or Seattle or Manila?

you know, how would Bar 3 work in your community and in your life? And those kinds of questions, I think for one thing, the burden was lifted from my shoulders of having all the answers, but also it ignited a culture of collaboration and ownership, literally and figuratively. And I think that's why, you know, we were able to rise pretty quickly. Well, Sint, you were our show last year, and there was so much incredible feedback from your episode. But you described how you didn't seek this job out. You didn't seek to be the CEO of the Dallas Mavericks. Mark Cuban, he actually tapped you for your expertise around diversity and inclusion.

And the MAVs were having some serious problems with culture when you join them, which I can't even begin to imagine what a challenge that was. Yes. It is not easy when you walk in. You know, you're already starting a new job, you know, new people and all that. but then to come in with a crisis and a crisis that is very public and it's very visible. And it's one where you know you'll have to make some changes. It's not easy. But fortunately, you know, there's some just wonderful people at the Mavs who are still there.

And they wanted a change too. So it's not like I walked into a place and 100% of the people were resisting a change. You know, I laid out a vision that said we would set. the global standard for diversity and inclusion by the end of that year. And then we laid out a set of values and just dug deep on those values and basically said this would be values-based employment. And these values would not just be on the walls because, of course, we got our big posters made and all that. We put them on the wall. But they would operate in the halls. And then we put that 100-day plan in place that you and I talked about last time that focused on, you know, modeling zero tolerance

for inappropriate behavior, misconduct, false allegations, anything like that, a very holistic approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And then just basic operational effectiveness. And put a diverse leadership team in place, had one-on-ones with every single employee in the first 90 days because it's so important to just sit down and talk to people. And so we all rallied together. I want to follow up on something you did because I think this is really interesting and really actionable, actually. You met with every single member of the staff. You had a one-on-one with them.

You listened to them. You asked about their life stories. It wasn't just, hey, what's bothering you or what's on your mind? You wanted to know about their childhoods and their passions and their interests. How did you know to do that? And tell me what that accomplished because it's a really interesting approach. Well, you're right. I mean, you said it earlier.

By the time I got to the Mavs, I had 36 years of experience. being a leader. And then just as a human being, I know what has always worked for me is someone who actually cares about me as a person. And my first thing I would say to the employee when they sit down, I said, give me your whole life story. And nine out of ten times, they would say, oh, this is my fifth season at the Mavs or my 10th season at the Mavs. And I'd say, were you born here? I want your whole life story. I want you to talk to me. I want to get to know you. I want to know about your family, all that. And then they would just open up and talk. talk to me. Then we'd end up talking about some of the workplace issues, and then I would end with

the same thing. I said, tell me where you see yourself five years from now, personally and professionally. You know, I want to know about the past, but then I wanted their vision of the future because my job as a leader is to kind of meet them where they are, but then to help them get to where they want to go. And I will tell you, after having over 120 of those sessions, I fell in love with the folks at the maps. I was just, I was just all in after that. Sadie, you do a version of this. Since you've launched Bar 3, you hold regular leadership circles, and you've done this at the How I Built the Summit, and I've been able to see them, and they are so powerful where you openly share your fears and joy and things about your life. What do you, I mean, not everybody wants to share that way, right? But I wonder when you do hold these leadership circles, what kind of information comes out that enables you to do what you to do what you?

you do better. Yeah, well, I like that you brought up that not everybody wants to share like that. And I think that's probably the most important thing about Circle. Leadership Circle is permission to pass. The only role in Circle is that everyone's there and listening and connected. I mean, we've actually had profound conversations like, what's your favorite item at Trader Joe's? You know, and it sounds like an icebreaker, but we add a little more structure to it. And it's a practice of being seen and heard and holding space with structure around circle leadership is a way to fight lonely. Often when we get around a table in a work setting, there are a few people that have a voice and usually the same kind of people who don't. And it's a way for everybody to have a voice in a

structured way. You know, I do. I think it's so beautiful that both of my panelmates here talk to their employees on a soulful level about their life story because I know that that's what we're all craving. I know that, you know, I think it's sad that we feel lonely at work. I think it's sad that we all feel like impostors and that we have to leave our true self behind and show up with our power suits on and be our work self. I don't think that helps build culture. I don't think that helps build innovation. I don't think it helps us problem solved. You know, that old way of thinking in the workplace doesn't evolve us. It doesn't move us forward. If somebody wanted to convene some kind of session where everybody would feel comfortable and safe, how would you suggest they start?

Okay, I'll just lead out on that. I think you start small. Sometimes it's better to start with kind of individual conversations because sometimes people are better one-on-one. sometimes they're a little fearful in front of other people. We have small circles. We have things called experiences of understanding. So when something happens like hate that's rising in our Asian American Pacific Islander community or today is the one-year anniversary of the death of George Floyd, we have small circles that talk about those kind of issues, how they're feeling, what's going on there. And you start individual, then smaller groups, and then before you know it, you have a huddle.

And so we have an organizational huddle every Wednesday, and it's not just covering work items. I mean, anything could come up in that huddle. We literally evolved from the one-on-ones to the circles of understanding to larger huddles. And somewhere along that continuum, you will meet somebody along that way, and you'll get to them. And then you'll learn what works for them. One thing I would add to that that we've found really helpful is, for me, for me, me not to be in the room all the time. When I'm not there, I mean, I don't know, but I have a hunch that's when a lot of magic happens because our team is empowered with this idea as well.

And I think no matter what, if you're the founder of your company, you're seen differently. And it's something I've tried to fight for years and I finally surrendered to it. And I've realized, yeah, there's really something to that. Like, when I step away, that's, at this point, that's when the magic happens. And that's, you know, ultimately exactly what I want for them anyways. Yeah, Sadie, on that point, I couldn't agree more. Like, you know, I would just sit in on meetings sometimes

and just mention something. It's like, have we tried this or have we tried that? And then just leave the meeting, you know, and just say, oh, okay, got to go. Thanks, guys. Keep doing your thing. And then one day, one of our co-founders, like, very forcefully grabbed me in the hallway after I left.

And it's like, do you know what you, what you're doing. And I'm like, what, I just dropped down. I'm just trying to be nice. But sometimes as a co-founder or as a CEO, as a leader, sometimes by just saying a few things, the entire organization tries to pivot around kind of what you just said. And so realizing that, listen, like, I'm just trying to help the team. And sometimes by helping the team is just sitting back or not being in the meeting, that's something that's important as well. And then something that I love about what Cint was saying about leadership and starting small, I would just add to that is that, like, sometimes leadership is about being the first to be vulnerable.

not just charging through the door, but in a small group like that, to be vulnerable and say, hey, guys, this is how I feel about it in a vulnerable way. And I've often found that more likely than not everyone else follows that lead and says, okay, this is not one of those meetings where I have to put this sheen or this facade up,

but this is one of those meetings that we're really going to break through here. And so I've had good luck being vulnerable as well. When we come back in just a moment, more of our conversation on leadership from the virtual How I Built the Summit, including ways leaders can encourage vulnerability and also some takeaways from leading over the last very challenging year. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

Hey, welcome back to a special edition of How I Built This from NPR. On today's show, we're bringing you my live panel discussion about leadership, which happened during the 2021 virtual How I Built This Summit. And one of the key elements of leadership that we talked about was the importance of vulnerability. how a good leader should encourage people to be vulnerable, but also how challenging it can be for some leaders to show vulnerability themselves. For me, it got to a point where I just decided

I was better off being me and being vulnerable, and I just couldn't play a game anymore. And it actually came when I got a big promotion in our company, and I got this laundry list of things that wanted me to change, just everything and it just wasn't me and I just finally said I gotta be me. You can keep it now it turned out I ended up getting it anyway But I gotta be me and I gotta start telling my story and so I started telling my story about growing up in the projects Things that happened domestic violence. I talked about miscarriages. I mean you name it

My daughter who died I just started telling stories and talking about how I got through things in my life and and and it just actually made me a better leader, but the side benefit, it made people talk to me more. And it just created a culture that was just very authentic. It's not why I did it. I actually did it because I was just tired of faking it. And it had a great impact. And it taught me that people really do want to be themselves and they will connect with you if they know you are real and they know that you are vulnerable. Sadie, you had, and we talked about this very openly on the show, I mean, given that you run a fitness business. I mean, the fitness industry got hit so hard over the last 15 months. You had to be very real with your team and with your franchise owners. I mean, you had to basically

level with them and explain what was going on. And that must have been really hard. Yeah. About a year ago, I took a sabbatical, which is kind of counterintuitive. But I just knew I needed to step away and take a deep breath and learn about Black Lives Matter and myself. It was a huge reckoning moment for me. And at first, our owners were upset that I left. It was like, how could you leave us right now? Right. And that is a very real, you know, the optics around that probably weren't great.

and I had to really honor that and recognize that. And then so we got on an all company call and I told them that, you know, I learned in that moment the importance of my mental health and that in order for me to lead and to get uncomfortable with them around equity, diversity, inclusion, around the chaotic climate we were in, you know, losing 60% of our revenue overnight. I had to get well. and that I would I invite I said I hope this is an invitation for you to do the same thing and to not feel like you have to hold it together all the time and I did have guilt around it I had shame around it but ultimately I think it's the best thing I could have done and um you know I suppose a moment of a true vulnerability um just recognizing that I needed to step back that way and I am really glad I did it and you and you sent your people a message it's okay not to to be okay. And people need to know that because, I mean, that's how we end up with, you know, with illnesses, with, you know, people having nervous breakdowns, with stress-related illnesses. A guy, you know, I'm a stage street colon cancer survivor. All kind of things happen where you just have to step back and let people know it is okay. And I told my team the other day,

I said, I need a break. And they know I'm the energizer bunny. I'm always this. We don't know where you get your energy. Well, you know what? It's just about gone. And so I need a break too. It's okay to tell people when you need a break. And so I applaud you, Sadie for what you did. I absolutely applaud what you did. We all need to think about that. It sends a great message. You know, I'm wondering, Che, you gave a TED talk at an event in Toronto, and you talked about how you learned to stop being a micromanager, which is really understandable. It's your baby. You started this company.

But we all know that micromanaging, it can be a human instinct, but it can also be an incredibly destructive instinct that can hinder our own personal growth and the growth of the business and also the happiness. And it can damage the culture. So first, Jay, how did you learn to let go and to stop micromanaging and trying to tinker with every part of the business? It's so hard because like you said, you know, you bring it up. It's like your baby and you just want to, you know exactly how it should be in your mind. And a lot of founders, a lot of leaders are very gut driven. And so you just kind of know your gut says, no, that's not how it should look. That's not how we should pack a box. But if you step back and actually think about it rationally, no one in the history of humankind has ever said, I love to be micromanaged. And my best boss, you know, how I got the most production was when my, my, my boss micromanaged me to the point that I really got it. And then also on the flip side, you know, it's so counterintuitive that we go out and try to hire these folks from the best schools, you know, with the best experience, only to try to tell them exactly what to do and how to do it. And so when you think about it that way, like your rational self really tells you that

micromanaging just is not the best way to get the most production out of folks. But it's really distancing yourself for once away from your gut instinct of just wanting it the right way. thinking about it for a second, that micromanaging, this doesn't make sense no matter how you, how you break it down. You know, I'm curious about this. And I want to kind of push back for a moment. And, Sint, I want to pose this question to you because I have to imagine this is something all leaders struggle with. Sometimes you have to be the decider.

You have to make a decision. And sometimes you're going to make it, oftentimes you're going to make a decision that not everybody is aligned with that will upset some people. But you've got to make that decision and it creates friction. The foundation of it all for me is trust. That if you have a foundation of trust and it takes a while to build it, it takes a while for people to understand everybody's intentions. But once you build that foundation of trust, when you make that decision, people know that it's in the best interest of the organization. Or when you're micromanaging, if you have that foundation of trust, the response will be, oh, You just can't help yourself, okay, and they can tolerate you.

If they don't trust you, then they think you don't trust them. Why are you micromanaging? Why are you in my business? All that. Because, I mean, we all micromanaged just to some degree. But it's the foundation of trust because we want to be in a place where you can deal with that friction. For all of you, I mean, you're all so experienced. You're all, you're so invested in where you are working and what you've created, whether it's a culture or a business.

how do you keep yourself honest? How do you make sure that the that the team around you can tell you when you're not doing a good job or when you're making a mistake? I mean, especially when you are a leader, Sadie, how about you? I mean, you also work with Chris, your husband. He's a co-founder, but you've got a team around you. How do you stay in check? Well, I've learned that the most rich and rewarding professional relationships are one where we can establish safe space to check each other, mutually, respectfully do it. And I invite that. And I've learned to invite it often. I do think that it's important to realize in my role that no one can fire me. I'm the founder. I have complete ownership of Bar Three. It's my job. up to kind of fire myself. If I'm not taking the time to investigate, where do I need to improve? You know, did I show up with our core values today? Am I asking the right questions? You know, oh, I'm falling back into that pattern where I'm interrupting. I'm going to work on that. You know, I have a dialogue with myself. Che, I'm curious because a question, and I want to ask all of you this question, we are often asked by our listeners for guidance and help when it comes to probably the hardest thing a leader has to do, which is to acknowledge that

maybe a person they hired is not the right pick. And maybe they have to let that person go. And that happens. It happens very, it happens in the earliest phases of a startup. It can happen well into the startup. It can happen years into the business growing and scaling. I have to imagine all three of you have been through that. Che, how do you, what's your advice about letting people go? You know, I'd have to say I've learned the hard way. You know, it's probably a skill set that, at least for me and some of the folks I've talked to, it's not innate in me to be ruthless. And the minute I hear something I don't like, it's, you know, I have a button under my table where that person falls through the floor and, you know, we're going to replace the VP of whatever,

you know, I've learned the hard way that that is unhealthy, keeping folks too long and thinking that, oh, you know, just another month or just another quarter. And I really feel that. like they're going to be able to turn the corner. More often than not, that just never happens. And I think what I've learned is that keeping folks too long is really bad not only for the company, but also for that employee. Sent? Timing is everything. And so I like to give people notice. I mean, the minute I start to feel like it's not a good match and it's not just a feeling, you have to have data to back it up, I like to sit down with them and say, this doesn't seem like it's a good match. And let me tell you

where I'm struggling. So it's not even about them. that point, it's about me and the disconnect that I'm having. And so we start to talk through that. And then I like to set out some timelines. And if it's 90 days, let's take a look at this, let's continue to check in. Because part of giving that notice is you want them to really start thinking about it too, because if they need to go somewhere else, you want to give them time to get another job and start that process because, you know, people, they need work. But sometime that is not a good fit where they are right then. So I like to give notice. And then the last thing, I like to do is ask them when it's time to go, how do you want to do this? I want to do it in a way

that it works for them. So how do you want to do this? You know, you want to come in later and get your stuff. You know, let's come up with some lines. What do we want to tell people? I want people to leave with dignity. And you can't take too long because they, once you know it's not a good fit, usually they know it's not a good fit. And everybody else knows that too. And so then you're sending a bad message to your folks if you're tolerating something like that. that. Now, that's if it's not bad behavior. If it's bad behavior, misconduct, and ethical violation, code of conduct violation, that's immediate. Sadie? I completely agree with both responses. I would add that moving upstream,

take a while to hire. I take it very seriously when we hire someone, that they will be set up for boundless success, you know, really thrive in our culture. I think for a while there, I was trending towards hiring people because they were so endeared to the brand. And in the long view, that didn't really serve them. You know, finding people who had the skill who maybe questioned what we were doing and wanted to move us forward, tends to be the team members who stay the longest, who are the happiest and have a longer life with us. The other quote I have from my friend Kim Malick that I love is let them outgrow me. You know, have them, let this be an experience for them where they can build their skills,

build their confidence, and then outgrow and move on and be really, really okay with that. This year, this past year, has been incredibly challenging for leaders, in part because of remote work. I mean, all of you have, to some extent, I know Che, you were going in a lot. but to some extent you've had to lead via Zoom or via video link. And we've all heard stories all across the country of how disruptive that's been. I think it's also accelerated a desire to demand, and I think rightfully so, among employees to have more say, you know, in their work environments, to have more power in how work in their lives are structured. What have you learned this past year trying to lead through video, trying to maintain morale, trying to be a great leader? I mean, it's a completely new environment.

So what did you learn that you think will make you a better leader in a truly post-pendemic environment? It was all about compassion. And I always talk about meeting employees where they are and all of that. it really, really became a focus for me because people were going through so much. Some people all of a sudden had kids at home that they had to school. Their roles had changed. It was just crazy. And so I realized part of what I needed to do is have a lot of compassion for people in

their individual circumstances and demonstrate that and then try to help. The same with the community, even though we weren't playing the game of basketball, I told my team, we're playing the game of life with people and with the each other and the sense of community has to elevate. And then our communication had to go to new heights. We thought we were great communicators, but now over a sudden we are remote. So what kind of structure do we actually need to put in place to help us communicate on a regular basis and what kind of things do we naturally communicate on in the office, but now we need to set up that structure. And I had to be very diligent about that. Our leadership team had to be very diligent about that.

And so we're going to carry that into kind of this new world. The things that we have put in place around those things, we're going to carry that for it. The lesson that I learned was really that if you think about kind of everyone as being a battery, by being completely remote, I think you discharge the battery at a much faster rate. For most folks, at our very core, we're social human beings. Like, we want to see each other. We want to once in a while banter in the coffee room. We want to know how people's kind of weekends were and go out for a random call.

Being in person, not all the time, but even some of the time, I found discharges that battery at a slower rate. And so you also find that what's really damaging towards kind of that discharge of that battery is also when you have a heated Zoom meeting where folks have differing points of view, as we often do running businesses, there's no repair time. And so there's no time to say, hey, after the meeting's over, that was a really contentious meeting. You got a minute in the hallway or, hey, do you want to go grab a coffee afterwards? There's no repair time. you go off onto your next Zoom, which are probably two minutes late for, and it kind of festeres over and over again. And so I think definitely what I learned is that you do need that human interaction and that by going full remote, you can be as effective, but that battery just seems to discharge a little bit faster. I would just add that what I've learned is more of an affirmation around the power of having true purpose and a strong vision and mission.

when chaos strikes. You know, we had remarkable constraints. But we had a strong purpose and vision and essential problems we were solving. And because of that, I'm so proud of what this team, our team has done. One of our core values is stronger together. And I really think that that value was present this year,

just also letting go and letting all these people problem solve in their own way versus, you know, having one answer at our headquarters. It's a huge lesson. That's from my live conversation about leadership from the How I Built This Virtual Summit with St. Marshall, the CEO of the Dallas Mavericks, Che Huang, CEO and co-founder of Boxed, and Sadie Lincoln, CEO and co-founder of Bar 3. More of these conversations from our virtual summit event will be in your feed soon,

including another panel discussion on innovation, as well as my live interviews with Gary Vaynerchuk, Bernay Brown, Adam Grant, and Rashad Robinson. You will not want to miss those. We're going to release them in addition to our regular Monday episodes of the show, so please keep an eye on your podcast feed. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger with music composed by Ramtin Arablewe. It was edited by Casey Herman. Our production staff includes Neva Grant, J.C. Howard, Julia Carney, Farah Safari, Janet Ujong Lee, Rachel Fockner, James Delahousie, and Annalise Ober. Our virtual summit team also includes John Isabella, Ali Prescott, Gianna Capadona, Joanna Palofska, and Jessica Goldstein. Our audio engineer was Alex Dre Wenskis. Our intern is Harrison V.J. Choi, and Jeff Rogers is our executive producer.

I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.