How I Built This with Guy Raz - Logic: Logic & Chris Zarou

Episode Date: March 11, 2019

In 2010, Logic the rapper, born as Sir Robert Bryson Hall II, released his first official mixtape titled "Young, Broke & Infamous." At 20 years old, Logic certainly was young and broke, and while crashing on a friend's couch, he poured himself into his music. Logic's career could have fizzled if it wasn't for Chris Zarou, a young college athlete-turned-manager who had no more experience in the music business than Logic. Undeterred, the two decided to work together, continuing to use free music and social media to build Logic's reputation as a talented, fast-flowing rapper with a hopeful message. In 2012, Logic signed to Def Jam Records and in 2014 dropped his debut album "Under Pressure," which shot to number 4 on the Billboard charts. His third album in 2017 went platinum and included the breakout single "1 800 273 8255." PLUS in our postscript "How You Built That," we check back in with Cassy Burnvoth who built a skincare company using an unlikely ingredient – beef tallow. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Airbnb.ca slash host. I met a lot of shady people who wanted to manage me. I didn't feel like I was a priority. It was a bunch of guys who knew everything and were telling me, you got to have a girl record, you got a hard record, you got a record for the club, you got this, you got that, and they're like telling me what to do. And I sat down with a young man who had just as much experience as I did and was prepared to risk everything to attain his dream. And he needed me, needed me as much as I needed him. And I was like, yeah, let's like yolo. Like, let's do it, man.

From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how a broke rapper and an aspiring music manager with no experience teamed up to top the billboard charts and build a multi-million dollar business. So about two years ago, if you turned on a pop music station, you could not get away from this song. Now, if you don't know this track, it's worth listening to. The title of this song is

1-800-273-8255. This also happens to be the phone number for the American National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. This song blew up on the billboard charts. It was nominated for a Grammy, and it actually turned logic, the rapper behind the track, into a superstar. This song, as you can imagine, is about pain, about the pain of loneliness and depression, two subjects that aren't always front and center in the world of hip-hop.

And the thing about this song is, when Logic performs it live, people in the audience break down and cry. So many people connect with it in a deep and personal way, almost like he's rapping about their exact experiences. But Logic, who was actually born Sir Robert Bryson Hall II, was writing something that authentically describes his own experience, about growing up around violence and addiction without a stable home life. and sometimes without anywhere to live. And the chances that he'd one day be performing in front of tens of thousands of people was so totally remote. But what logic could do was write music and rap.

And for the most part, that's what he was doing 10 years ago in and around the D.C. metro area. At around the same time, Chris Zeru was a college student struggling to find work in the music industry. In fact, he couldn't even get an internship at any of the local. the big record labels when he first came across Logic, but we'll get there, because the story of how Logic built the brand Logic is as much about his talent as a musician as it is about Chris Suru's talent as a marketer. And today's episode is about what happens when two totally

different people, with totally different skill sets, happen to meet. And just to note, you'll hear from Chris Seru a little bit later, first to Logic, who, as I mentioned, was born Sarat. Robert Bryson Hall the second. My dad likes to tell me now that we have a better relationship that he's the one who named me that, but I know it was my mom because she's like of English descent. If you go far back enough and she's an eccentric woman and she decided to name me, you know, sir first. And my father's name is Robert Bryson Hall. And so she named me Sir Robert Bryson Hall the second, wherein technically, because she added the sir, I'm actually the first, which is really funny. And whenever I have a boy, I'll name him the third, but he'll name him the third.

be the second. So tell me about your parents and I guess you were the only child of their marriage or their time together. Were they married? They were never married. I was born at a wedlock. My mom, like the nitty gritty of it is she's just a deep, deep, deep, deep down good woman who, you know, at a young age was molested. She'd been raped growing up. She got into all kind of drugs running around with drug dealers. And my father, was never really in the picture because he was addicted to crack cocaine. So when you were little,

it was just, you never knew your dad. You just knew your mom. Yeah, well, I knew my dad, you know, but I knew him as a drug addict, which is messed up, you know. But yeah, it was like he'd go away for a few years and then he'd come back and he'd leave and then he'd come back and,

but they were never together. That's the one thing is like they, It's really weird. I've seen my mom go back to a lot of men. She never went back to him. I never had that moment or that time of where I felt like family. So your mom and dad basically, they had a brief relationship. You're the product of that relationship. Your dad is African American. Your mom is Caucasian. She's white. Yeah. And tell me about like where you grew up. Did you, did you grow up in a house or an apartment? Yeah, we grew up in Section 8 housing. So food stamps, welfare. We had a few hundred dollars a month from the government. to live off. Was you and your mom?

Yeah, just me and my mom. She spent a lot of that in different times on, you know, alcohol and cigarettes. And I, you know, remember times where we'd have three and a half dollars that could have bought us some rice and some powdered eggs and, you know, she'd buy a pack of cigarettes. And I grew up with her saying the craziest things. Like, I was just a kid, you know? I was a hyper kid. And then if I pissed her off, she'd say things like, you deserve to feel pain or she'd call me

or any of these crazy things because of the systemic racism that, was deep down inside her, which is insane. But mind you, it's like she was troubled. So I feel bad for her. It's not like I'm like, oh, my mom, screw her, terrible woman. It's just like, was she a good mom? No. Was she a human being who had a terrible past and took that out on me and her other kids?

Yes. And that's the reason she's not in my life. It's just that simple. So you grew up with your mom mainly and you would see her dad from time to time. And was he, would he sort of go in and out of bad spell? or was he constantly, you know, using drugs? Yeah, he was pretty much constantly using drugs. You know, a lot of my childhood was in AA meetings.

Like, you know, you know, just kind of reciting the prayer at the end of it and listening to all these people talk about all the things they go through, which is so hard and it's so difficult and seeing people, you know, just kind of using again and then getting clean and this and that. And my dad was like that. One of my earliest childhood memories, I was about five, and my dad, I don't know why I was with him, but I was with him for, I think, the weekend.

And my dad took me to southeast D.C. and left me in a car, back of a car for five hours, while him and some woman I didn't know went to go smoke crack in this house, which was insane. It's crazy. How did you avoid, like, getting into drugs and alcohol? It just really, really, really scared me. You know, I ran around. I've done a lot of stuff. I've shot guns. I've robbed people.

I've ran from the police. I've done a bunch of stupid things because I was around other stupid people because I felt that they were my family. You know, it's why a lot of young men and women join actual, like, real gangs. It's because they have nothing at home. And here's a family who will protect them. And it's kind of sick and twisted because it's like, okay, we're going to hurt other people, but these people won't hurt me.

So we'll hurt others together. And then at least that way I'm safe. But there was that voice deep down that was like, yo, like this isn't right. And for me, when I got into music for real and I was 18 and I was like, I'm not going to let anything hold this back. My father is an incredible musician, singer, percussionist, playing GoGo and Chocolate City, D.C., I mean, amazing. And I saw what cocaine did to him. And I was like, I can't let this happen to me. So that's why I steered clear from it.

So sticking with music for a second being exposed to, it. I guess as a teenager, you start to meet some people who kind of took an interest in you musically. Who were they? Well, kind of even when it comes to music, I had a friend named Josh and he was, who would eventually go on to be my godmother's son, and her name was Mary Joe, and I love her, and she's the sweetest woman in the world. And he kind of saw that I had a niche for raps. I just freestyled, you know, on the block with all my friends and had fun. And so he He was a person that was there, and a gentleman named Solomon Taylor, who was my mentor. Who's Solomon?

So Solomon was this guy that I met when I was volunteering at RFL, which is the Rockville Football League, just to get extra credit to be able to pass eighth grade. So I was 13. He was 19 at the time. And he's a hustler. So basically, you have all these football. I would set up the football fields and you'd have, like, pee-wee and, you know, these kids in middle school and stuff playing football. And what he would do is he would show up and how he built this whole kind of business is he would film. the kids games and then duplicate the tapes, create highlights, and then sell those to the parents,

which was really amazing. And then so we became friends, and then I eventually kind of worked for him at his booth, and he paid me nothing. And it taught me a lot about a lot in the winter and the freezing cold and the snow standing at a booth outside. And this dude was there for me. He introduced me to, you know, so many incredible MCs. He brought me these old things called How to Be an MC CDs, which is basically like,

a bunch of instrumentals, famous instrumentals of the 2000s, and he'd be like, rap on these. And I would literally rap on every single song. And he gives me 10 CDs, there's like 80 beats. I rapped on those. And he was cool, and he was great. He was a good dude. I read that, I read that when the movie Kill Bill came out,

you got the soundtrack to that film, which was produced and composed by Riza from Lutang Clan. And that was like a huge, like, turning point for you. You heard this and you were like, what is this? Yeah. Man, that movie, like, it's just something about it. There's probably also the fact that my mom was like, you can't watch this.

It's too bloody. And your parents say, don't do something. And then you want to go do it. When I heard that soundtrack, I was like, who the hell is the rhythm? You know? And like, this was like back in the time where it was like, pop, lock and drop it and do that, laugh it, tap it. It was like the whole South fun turn-up music, but I wanted something a little deeper.

I'd listen to ATLians and, you know, so Outcast, UGK., like hearing those stories. So after being introduced to the Riz, I found Wu-Tang Clan. And obviously we've all heard of Wu-Tang Clan. Sure. But I'm, you know, I'm the 14-year-old kid. Like, I don't really know. I'm learning. And then I listen to Wu-Tang, and I'm listening to the Wu-Tang album, and then I discover

Ray Kwan's only Bill for Cuban links And then I discover Naz And then I discover the beef Between Nas and JZ Like truly If it wasn't for Kill Bill If it wasn't for The Riz

And if it wasn't for Tarantino Dude Like we wouldn't even be talking right now So when you were like Already a teenager Were you just like Would just rap with friends Like just mess around

And just like You know Throw out rhymes Or just try to imitate your favorite Artists Or did that come later? Yeah no No no

That was yeah for sure Like we would always do freestyles, but I took it seriously. When I was 15 and I was introduced to how to record myself through a BS microphone into a computer, like, I took it seriously. And I learned to emulate all my favorites. How does Pock rap like this? How does Jay do this? How does Kanye do that? I want to wrap over this boom bap 90s beat, this run DMC beat. Okay, now I want to wrap over super mainstream hit song. I want to sing like Drake. I want to do this like that. I wanted to do it all. So take me back to 2007. You're 17. You leave home. You stop living with your mom and you're working jobs. But you're also making music. How are you actually making music? Did you buy a microphone and like did you have a computer? How are you actually doing that?

I was on a Yahoo messaging chat about music and hip-hop. And some person introduced me to a program for recording. A lot of people use it in radio called Adobe Audition. Sure. And I was like, what the hell is that? I don't know what that is. And this is back of the day where, like, this small file took probably about nine hours. The person actually was sat with me for nine hours on my computer. So they were somewhere else. I think it had been Alaska.

I don't remember. And they transferred the file onto my computer. There was an illegal download. 100%. Everything was. Yeah. Yeah. And so I learned kind of how to use that.

And by the time I was 18 years old and living with Mary Jo and had two jobs. Solomon had provided me with a PC, very strong PC at the time, and a million torrented albums. I mean, from Jay-Z to R. Kelly, I was rapping on Brian McKnight beats. Like, it was whatever. It didn't matter what it was. You would just take beats and samples from other records and then just like mess around and wrap over those?

Yeah, and I would just like loop them. I would like loop the end of the beat and I had the beat. And I did that with $80 microbreed. phone in a jerry-rigged closet with a pillows around it and and just would just go. I would just go and go and go. And the crazy thing is I have every song I've ever created. Wow. But you thought you were going to, I mean, you were like working Jiffy a lube or whatever job you could get, but like you really thought I'm going to make a career out of being a performer. Like this is what I'm going to do. Like you really thought that? That moment came two years later. I was 20 years old, and it's before I put out my first mixtape ever called Young Broken Infamous to the public on the hosting site datpiff.com. But you would just put your mixtape out there of your own music, and anybody could put their music on the site?

Yeah, anybody could put their music on the site. I think you had to pay like 50 bucks or something to upload it, but that was the time. That was the moment. There's actually a song on there called Young Sinatra, which then inspired the series. So then my following mixtape was Young Sinatra, then Young Sinatra, then Young Sinatra, 1, 2, 3, 4. So that's when I said, I was working at a supermarket, I quit, and I was like, this is it. This is everything. I'm just going to do it.

Now is the time I'm young. It's okay to fail now. It's okay to fall down because I don't want to look back in my 50s with regret. Can you imagine being 50s? 60, 70 years old, filled with regret. There was that voice in my head like, nah, man, you can do this. And that's when I went to go live with Lenny in his basement in college park. So you're living in a basement with a friend in college parks around 2010, 2009, 2010.

I'm trying to understand. I mean, you decide I'm going to make, I'm going to make a go with this. Like, you're putting out mixtapes and I guess you're performing locally. You're like going to open mic stuff. But you had no money. You were still, I'm assuming you were still pretty broke. Oh, you don't understand. I was so broke that I would steal quarters from Lenny's little collection that he had so I could go buy food.

And he actually like screamed at me and was like, just ask, man. Like it's all good. Like you just got, you know, I got to just ask. And I didn't have a job. I was supposed to get a job. It was unspoken. And I kind of just sat down with him and was like, can you just give me a year? Like, can you just give me one?

I know this is insane, but it seems like every week something new and exciting is happening. And now is the moment. Like, could you just give me? just give me just one year. And this was 2011, so I was just turned 21. And yeah, he gave it for a year, I did everything I could. You just put out music on the internet. You weren't selling it at that point.

Yeah, no, it was all free. All right, we're going to come back to Logic in just a couple minutes because while at this point in his life he was crashing in his friend's basement, his future manager, Chris Zeru, is going to call him. in New York. At this point, they do not know each other. In fact, a career in music isn't even on Chris's radar because at that point in his life, he was laser-focused on soccer. I thought I was going to be a professional athlete. I played soccer very competitively growing up all the way through high school and got an opportunity to play Division I, which I thought

was the first step to, you know, completing that goal, right? How are you playing, by the way? What college? My freshman year, I played for Canetius College in Buffalo. And, you know, I thought that was the best opportunity for me at the time. Very, very competitive team. Soon after that, I think after my sophomore year, and I had transferred in between then to play at a different school, I realized that I just, you know, I wasn't good enough. I was very good, but I wasn't good enough to play at the higher level.

So I'm trying to try to figure out how you, like, made a transition into music. I mean, did you just think, I'm not going to do sports. I'm going to get into the music business? Yeah. I was 20 or 19, probably at the time when I started trying to figure it out. I knew when I stopped playing, I wanted to do something I loved and was passionate about. I think that's all I knew. So I kind of asked myself, you know, what else do I love as much as that sport?

And the only thing that I could answer it was music. So I said, okay, that's what I'm going to do. I didn't know where I'd start. I didn't know anybody. I didn't have any relationships. So I would literally go to Barnes & Noble and kind of read books on the music business and try and figure it out. And I chose management because I thought it would be the least barrier to entry. And I was like, okay, if I find talent and start working with them, that would be my way into the business.

But you didn't think, like, let me go, like, see if I get a job working for, like, one of these big record labels or management companies and kind of get experience. Like that wasn't where what you thought you should do it first? I tried. I definitely tried that route. I started with internships. I didn't graduate college yet, so I didn't really apply for jobs. But at almost every major record label, I applied for internships. And, you know, I kept getting turned down one after the interview.

I actually got one interview that they actually had me coming for an interview. And I thought it went great. And ultimately, you know, they said, you know, sorry, this isn't going to work. And I just remember, I emailed the woman. and I asked, I actually still have the email, I asked why isn't, isn't this going to work? And she told me I didn't have enough experience, which I just thought was really funny because I was going for an internship, yeah. Right. And the funny part about it, and the reason why I said, you know, I have the email.

I actually printed it out recently, and I'm getting it framed for the office. It was Def Jam, which is ultimately where logic signed to probably a year, a little bit over a year after that. All right. So you're living on Long Island with your parents and, getting all these rejections for internships. So what? Like you decide maybe I'll just do this on my own without an internship? Like maybe I'll just figure this out? Yeah.

And to be honest, I didn't have another choice. I couldn't get an internship. I didn't have any relationships or friends or family that worked in the business that could give me an opportunity. So yeah, I didn't have a choice. That was the only path that I had. So what did you just, did you decide to like start a business or did you just first decide, let me kind of scour the internet and see if I can find someone. Yeah, I think that starting a business came a little bit later.

I was just like, you know what, let me find some talent. Let me reach out to them and just kind of start a dialogue and try to build a relationship with some of them and, you know, convince them to let me manage them. How did you come across logic stuff? Yeah, it was, it was kind of by chance. It was, you know, I used the word, it was serendipity. I was managing an artist, a rapper, at a Philly at the time, and this was 2011, so it was very early days of Twitter,

and I probably at the time followed 25, 30 people. And I was sitting in front of my computer, and his DJ, the rapper's DJ that I managed from Philly, tweeted out a YouTube link, right? There was no description, there was no anything else in the tweet. It was just the link, and I clicked it. It was an a cappella video of logic rapping at the University of Maryland campus. And it was super low budget and poorly done.

There was wind in the microphone. He actually, I think, had the microphone tucked in his hoodie. There was just something about it that stood out to me. And I thought it was really special. And I kind of dug in a little deeper to try and find out who he was and reached out to him. What did you say? Like, I'm Chris and I'm a manager? Yeah, I'm a manager.

You know, can we jump on the phone? Do you have... First of all, I probably asked if he had management because I didn't want to step on anybody's toes. Sure. You have to understand it. You know, I'm a kid trying to get another kid to trust me with their career.

I had no... Yes! Yeah. No experience, no resume. I think I pointed to some of... or one of the other artists I was working with at the time and say, hey, you know, I'm working with this artist. We had built this so far.

you know, check it out. And I'd love to, uh, to, to, to be involved. All right. Just time out for set, Chris. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Like, you were 20 years old and you were emailing like different potential artists, including Logic at the time, who was, you know, not that well known. And, and you were saying, I'm a manager. What did you know, like, what did that mean to you? Like, how would you even know what to do? Like, were there books that said, hey, here's how to be the manager of a recording artist? Like, how did it? you know what to how to negotiate contracts and find venues and record music like how did you know to do any of that i i didn't to be honest um you know a lot of what i was doing was was learning as i went

and i to looking back now i'm i'm very grateful and glad that i did learn that way because i think that's the best way to learn a lot of management and a lot of the music business is very difficult i don't think you can learn it in a textbook yeah and you call and i should mention you called your company visionary music group, right? Yeah, yeah. Which is a great name. It makes it sound like a huge company. Like you've got a big building in Hollywood.

Visionary music group. Yeah, it was, I remember I made, and at the time, having to come up with a company name, it was more just to kind of, you know, I formed an LLC when I started to make money because I had to be paid. And I had a little, I remember a Microsoft Word document with some names. and I ended up landing on the word visionary. I thought it was at the time fitting. I think that's how Logic and I looked at ourselves. I think we were doing something very different that I thought and we thought was visionary.

All right, Chris, we've been leaving Logic and Lurcher, because you are sitting right next to each other. Logic, what do you remember about Chris? Like you were, I guess, 21. This guy named Chris comes down to me. you, what was your first impression of him? Actually, we met in New York City. It was my first time ever in New York, and it just kind of happened by chance that I was going to go there

to shoot a music video. I wanted to do something that was different. And this was like a low budget, right? A video you're doing like, yeah. There's low budget, and then there's no budget, and that's what we had. You know what I mean? Literally, you know, just a camera,

and, you know, point and shoot, as we call it. And so, yeah, I, I go to New York, and Chris had, like, a friend who had a rooftop, and we're like, Roof Top, you know, that's content right there. So we're like, yeah, let's get a rooftop in New York. And we go there, and the music video is called Mind of Logic, and it's like skeleton me rapping at like 120 pounds a long time ago, just, like, winging it.

Step into the mind of a young man. And if you don't do, I don't really give a damn. All I want to do is make you understand, but if you don't want to listen, I guess you ain't a part of the plan. After the shoot, he was like, hey, I want to buy you lunch. And I'm like, free food. You ain't go say less. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm like, okay, let's do it.

And so we're kind of near Times Square. I'm like, yeah, I'd never been a Times Square before, man. Like, this is great. Let's go somewhere. And he's like, oh, okay. And I'm like, yeah, there was like a Ruby Tuesday or something like that. And I'm like, let's go, man. I'm about to get a free chicken sandwich or something.

And he's like, no, you know, yeah, I mean, it's just tourist stuff. You mean, you want to go somewhere else. And like, what I didn't realize is, you know, looking back is like, I'm talking to a broke college student with maybe 140. $50 in his account. Like, if that, like, it's got to last them the next six years of his life. And, yeah, I mean, we talked and he was like, I want to manage you. And he was honest with me.

He was like, hey, look, like, I'm just getting into this too. He's like, but I've made some connections. I know some people. And, you know, he had met some people at blogs, different blogs online and kind of music spaces where young people were excited. And word of mouth via the internet was a big deal. And I was like, all right. Well, I didn't want to sign anything.

That was a big thing. I was like, I don't want to sign anything. If we're going to do this, like, I don't want to sign anything. And he wasn't pushing to sign anything either. And that's a really amazing thing because he allowed, he was like, I'm going to walk to walk. Like, I'm going to show you that I'm going to do this. And that's what we did for about the first six months.

Just unsigned. You were like, okay, yeah, we can try this out, but I'm not committing to you. Yeah, and I remember we released the music video and, like, overnight, it had 20,000 views. Now, you've got to understand, dude. 20,000 views in 2011, yeah, I was going from 100 views and it was all people I knew, like to that, to the point where we actually sat Chris down, all of us. And it felt like an intervention. And I was like, yo, what's up, man?

You paying for views or what? Because there's like back then where like people, it was a big deal because it's kind of like fake it to you make it. People would pay and it would be fake. He's like, no, bro. He's like, I can prove it to you. I could show you. And man, it was legit. But even before you got to that point, like, I'm trying to figure out, like, you're, like, eating at Ruby Tuesday or whatever.

And Chris is like, hey, give me, you know, give me a chance. And you don't have anyone managing you at that point. And I guess you're still not kind of an unknown artist. But what made you think, yeah, I'm going to trust this guy with zero experience who's, like, my age. Because obviously, we know how this story is going to end. But at that point, in 2011. You did not. And neither of you knew how this is going to end.

You both could have just, like, could have fizzled out. But what was it about in that you thought, yeah, I'm going to try this? I met a lot of shady people who wanted to manage me, you know. Older dudes who were once kind of in the industry, you know, different people who were musicians themselves or this or that. I didn't feel like I was a priority. It was a bunch of guys who knew everything and were telling me, you got to have a girl record, you got to have a hard record, you got a record. You got a record for the club. You got this.

You got this. And they're like telling me what to do. And I sat down with a young man who had just as much experience as I did. And I was looking in a mirror. I was looking at a green kid who had no idea what he was doing and was prepared to risk everything to attain his dream. And he needed me, needed me as much as I needed him. And I was like, yeah, let's like, yo.

Like, let's do it, man. Like, yeah, and that's what it was. So, Chris, at this point, and I'm, and Logic and Chris, forgive me for kind of characterizing this way. But in a sense, like, like Logic, you were, you were the brand, that the business was being built around you and your brand and your talent. And you, it's like you're the product that is, you're putting out into the world. But Chris, like, when I do interviews with other entrepreneurs, it's at this point when they go out to VCs and raise money. to get the product down into the world. How are you funding this?

How are you having logic record music? Because I think at this time, you were just releasing all of his music for free, just putting it out on the internet and letting anybody to take it, right? Yeah. And what we were doing, like you said, we were building the brand. I viewed that putting out free music as investing in the brand, right? As we were building an audience and a fan base that was becoming more and more invested. And what that means is they would later down the road whenever we asked for it

spend the money, meaning, oh, we're going to put out our first, you know, project for sale. Or, hey, we're going to put up a tour for the first time. Well, you spend $12 to come see me in San Diego. Hey, we're selling T-shirts for $20. So I, that's how I viewed it. We were essentially monetizing free music. So how did you guys make a living? I mean, if in 2011, then 2012, you were putting out, and maybe even 2013, like, you were just putting out free music. How are you, like, how are you guys paying your rent? How are you buying food? My parents were very, very good about allowing me to live there. Again, I was still in school, so I didn't have to, I didn't have to worry about that. Logic was still at Lenny's apartment,

so, you know, we didn't have too many expenses at the time. And mind you, not to interrupt, up, but like, I was in college park sleeping on Lenny's couch. Yeah. And, you know, we were, we were still shopping ourselves. Like, we wanted a deal. That was, like, the goal. And, you know, there was even independent companies that put a contract for $1.5 million in our hands. In front of you.

Wow. In front of us. And Chris had it. And I remember he said something really corny. It was really funny. Like, he was just excited. He was like, how much you think our brand that were creating is worth? And I was like, I don't know.

And he was like, well, somebody thinks it's worth $1.5 million. And mind you, it's like, bro, like, 1.5 million. It's a lot of money right now. Like it's like, let alone as like some super broke young kids. And so we turned it down. And long story short, we turned it down. Yeah, we turned it down like it was nothing. Why?

Because they wanted, I mean, first of all, we were getting screwed over on points, on royalties, on longevity. They also wanted us, they were going to take a lot of control. And we were like, no, we always have to be in control because we know what we want. I just want to kind of pause for a second, just ask you about. music for a moment because like what what do you think it is and it was about your music that connected with people like it's rap it's hip-hop but generally like you know you're described as as having positive messages and and you know talking about things in an open way about your own emotions and about injustice and about anxiety and depression all these things I mean do you

think that's what was connecting with with people even from the beginning yeah i think i was the every man or every kid or every person or every whatever it was like people were watching me grow up like a child star you know what i mean like they were they listen to this and they hear me say i can't wait to make it i can't wait to have fans i can't wait to beat a man with the master plan i can't wait like da da da and they're like me too like i can't wait to graduate college i can't wait to you know raise my children. I can't wait to follow my dreams. I'm going to do that and I'm like follow your dreams like no matter what and hate is going to hate. Like, until I overdose, I said it once had to say a dose. I remember living at Mary Joes. Now I'm living

like pharaohs. I work. Even today like on a mainstream level like all the so much of the things I talk about openly from anxiety, depression, just all the like you said, injustice, the things going on. One, I'm scared to talk about or I was scared at a point because I was scared that of how people perceive me or this or that. But two, it's like, now it's become a trend. You know, you've got, you've got, you've got rappers, hardcore rappers in people talking about depression and mental health. And I ain't the first one. I think it's just time, place, you know, a bit of image, just, I was this nerdy young kid that other people felt they could relate to. Yeah. So how soon after Chris, you started working with logic, did you say, all right, let's, we got to go on tour. And, and, and did you

go on tour. Yeah. I'm not sure exactly how soon, but it was an intuition thing, right? Because there was no metrics at the time or data that we had that said, hey, you can sell out 30 shows across the country. It was something that we both felt, hey, I think it feels right. And I think we could probably go on a tour now. And how we did that, because that's an expensive thing, right? There's a lot of startup capital that you need to fund a tour. We ultimately signed a record deal. to fund our tour because we needed the money. I think we could have waited longer if we had some money, but, you know, we didn't have an opportunity to wait.

And it felt right. I mean... And just to clarify, this is 2012. The record deal you signed is with Def Jam? Yeah, this is 2012. Yeah, no ID comes to you, you know, legendary producer who's, you know, new executive at Def Jam. And Def Jam in general, like Def Jam records,

the most iconic hip-hop rap label is willing to sign you, give you great money, give you creative control. It was kind of like if there's a time, like now's the time. And yeah, but I'll tell you this, it was very difficult, you know, looking at a check and seeing, you know, lower six figures, very lower, just six figures in an advance, which is still great. And then literally going, okay, well, you know, after X, Y, and Z takes their percentage just on my team management and lawyer at that time, I have to put all of this into a tour. And that was, that was a hard thing. but it was, it just has a young man who's like, oh wait, I just got this check

and now I got to let it all go, but it was worth it. Right. This is your sweat equity in the brand, basically. This is like you had to kind of put all that. So you could have gone through that tour and been broke and we might not be talking today.

I mean, that was a possible. That was a very real possibility. The odds were in that favor that it wasn't going to happen. When we come back in just a moment, Logic and Chris hit the road, but there will be speed bumps ahead. with money and mental health all on the line.

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. So it's 2012, Logic and his manager Chris Zeru have signed a record deal with Def Jam. But it's hardly glamorous. They still haven't cut an album, and the money they got from signing that deal, they had to put most of it towards their first tour. We toured the country in a minivan and a Nissan Ultima, right? I rented from Enterprise rent a car, and I remember filling out the paperwork,

and it specifically said that the cars, the vehicles could not leave New York State. And we were literally touring the country, and the way it was routed, we were going to California and back. So I was like, all right, they'll never know we left. And then I ended up getting, you know, a million and one tickets for going through tolls and all over the country. But no, it was not first class and five-star accommodations. We were lugging garbage bags, and we were, you know,

selling merch after shows. I'd run and sell merch after shows. Logic would come over to the merch booth and meet fans. And, yes, it was a, it was like a mom-and-pop tour. And we tried to figure it out, and I had my right-hand man today, the CEO of Visioner Music Group, Harrison Remler, at the time, he was in school. He was 18 years old. Wow.

This was your only employee at the time? At the time, he wasn't even employee. I think he was interning for me. And I said to him, I said, hey, because I realized very quickly that I couldn't be on the road full-time and try and sustain and run the business. It was very difficult. I think I did the first two weeks of it. And I remember saying, I was, hey, dude, would you like to tour manage?

and he was sure and I threw him on the road. And again, we didn't know what we were doing. It was terrible. We had no idea we were doing. Our accounting, my accounting system was Manila envelopes. So before tour, I kind of wrote out every show. So you had Denver, Colorado, and we'd settle the shows in cash at the time. That tour was actually a no-guarantee tour.

So the risk was massive. Tell him, very quick, because it's something I want to say, tell him about what happened with the money. Oh, trust me. Again, it was Manila envelopes, and I'd settle and we'd put the cash in the envelope and seal it. We ended up finishing the tour, so I had these, I think it was 30 shows. I had 30 different envelopes, and looking back, we just did so... I kept a backpack on the tour of all of the envelopes with all of the cash and would carry it around, and we would just leave it in a green room and walk away.

Now, if someone had took that backpack, That was the entire income from the whole tour. So we ended up getting back and I'd later put everything into, you know, an Excel spreadsheet and try and, you know, log everything. So I would take out the cash and I would, you know, count it and put it on top of the middle envelope. And I was at my house at the time. Harrison was helping me. I had, I was working still. And Harrison was like, yo, I got it.

Don't worry about it. I'll finish up here. I said, cool. I ran off to work and I came back. What was your job? way. I worked at a, it was called Rule. It was, it was like an Amber Crompy and Fitch, you know, retail store. This is after going on tour with Logic, managing Logic's tour, you were back at the mall working retail. Yeah. Okay, okay, all right. And I came, and I came back, and the envelopes

were gone. There was just 30 piles of cash that I had no idea what belonged to what. And I, And I called Harrison and I think he ended up trying to clean up. So he took the envelopes and ripped him up and threw him out. So I had no. You were hot. Yo, Chris was so mad. We had all this cash. We didn't know where it was.

We didn't know how to divvy it. But I say all this to say that Harrison went from fumbling 20 grand or whatever we had to juggling millions and millions of dollars in this company with Chris. And it just goes to show that some 19 year old, 18, 19 year old kid. is now this young 30 under 30 boss. And I just had to show some love. So you basically are, your accounting system is jotting it on the back of a manila envelope and then later on inserting this into Excel.

But you walk away from that tour in the black. You made some cash. Yeah, we did really well. Yeah, it was awesome. How do you, and this is a super awkward question for both of you, but I always ask this of partnerships because it is part of business. Like, how do you figure out who gets paid what? I mean, obviously, logic, you're out there.

You're the face of this organization. Like, you represent all of the people now who work for visionary music group and the other people involved. And so, Chris, like, how did you know how to divide that up? There's, right, a typical commission is how management works. Right, it's anywhere. It's anywhere. anywhere anywhere from 15 to 20% is the traditional commission for for a manager um i've learned to love the commission model the more that i've grown it's because you you don't eat unless everybody

eats there's not one person you know at the table that has a full plate when you're starving it's it's that's why i've learned to to love commission yeah and things are crazy now you know what i mean 30 plus million dollar deals here and there doing this doing that but you can you You just got to look in the mirror and say, like, well, does this person deserve it truly? Like, yes or no. Take your ego out of it. Take one in an extra mill here or there in a deal that if they had a lower percentage or that.

But the truth is, man, like, he earns every penny because he provides that with me. I don't feel cheated. I never felt that things were unfair or this or that. And we're so open. We have conversations about it. We have talks about it. And also, to be fair, when you get to my level, there are, there's, there's, a bunch of different people in your pocket, but they're all there to make you money, but I am

always the majority. And I think that that is fair and where you find yourself with artists who are being like taken for 70%. Like it's just, I mean, that is insane as a collective. And, uh, and that's where the music industry is really horrible vile and they chew you up and spit you out. But this is my friend and my brother in arms. And I think that's the, the secret element that has enabled us to be successful for so long is it's just it's really simple it's just genuinely caring yeah about that person's well-being and what i mean by that you know going back to 2012 when we had a 1.5 million dollar offer i knew in my gut it wasn't the right opportunity they were not the right partner it was not a good deal but if i had just suggested or advised him that we take this deal because i didn't really care

what happened to him i wanted to get my commission and get my check and then, you know, I'm out. But I didn't. So this is 2012. It's still going to be like another two years before you guys release your first studio record. But between that point and the release of the studio record, you still are releasing mixtapes. Were you guys selling that or were you just, again, still kind of building the brand and

releasing the music for free? We were still putting out for free. That tour was a massive iron. opener for us. It was what logic and I had thought we were building. It proved to us and I think everybody else that it was, it was something very real, bringing out three, 400 kids in different cities across the country from putting out free albums and free mixtapes and selling a lot of merch and it became very real at that time. And we wanted to keep that going because again, we were building leverage and building his brand. So our thing was we want to

wanted to make a splash when it was his time for debut album. We wanted to have a really big first week sales. So we decided to continue building and putting out free products. What I'm trying to figure out is how did you get the word out? Like we've done we've done interviews with like the founder of Glacier, the cosmetics brand. And she started with a beauty blog. And over time, she just, you know, she built a following. And then she introduced the brand of the products, the product line. And then we've we've done episodes with like the founders of Instagram and how that was kind of a slow build. Like how did you how did people discover logic's music? I mean, you just you can't just put it out of the internet and hope people will find it,

right? No, it was it was much more thoughtful and there was a strategy behind everything. I think what I did a lot is I watched right. I would watch the way other artists would break and I would try and reverse engineer that and figure out okay, this is really interesting. YouTube is in a amazing tool at the time for being discovered because the way their algorithm worked and their suggested video algorithm, if you remember, and it's still there today. I think it's much different now on the right-hand side. If you'd be watching a certain video and music video would suggest another artist, that's something that we took advantage of. I sat down with logic. We would go through the project and I'd say, okay, let's identify four or five songs that we think are singles.

and we'd shoot no budget, low budget, point and shoot music videos for those because that was a way for us to get more attention to those songs. And as social media started to come out, paying attention to that, I remember the very early days of Snapchat was something that we took advantage of and Logic was on there and building a big audience on that platform. And then Instagram played a role. And we tried to be first movers and on these people. platforms quick logic did a great job at you know speaking directly to his audience it's it's always about

sorry to cut you off in like taking something that's already been done and making it better you know i've recently come out with this thing called freestyle friday's on my instagram where you essentially create a perfect loop of a song and it seems like it's a never-ending music video that doesn't stop and i don't necessarily know of anybody who's done that at least not on a mainstream platform but it's like finding ways with something that already exists to put your own stamp on it and make people want it. And all that freestyle friday thing is that's, it's just crowdsourcing. Yeah. Logic and I were just having a conversation. We came up with the idea.

Now we get to go and look at 15,000 comments and see what their opinion is on the song before we put it out. And we can decide, hey, is that something we want to put out? Should that make the album or not? I mean, it sounds like you had a, you had this slow build from sort of 2000, Well, for you, Logic from 2009, but once you entered the picture, Chris, really the first two years were, sounds like they were focused on building up, you know, the brand awareness. Like, who is making sure people knew who Logic was. So by the time you put out your first studio record in 2014 under pressure, that record, what, I think it debuted or went right to number four on the Billboard chart for, which is like, I mean, were you guys surprised by that? Were you shocked or did you think, yep, this is exactly as we planned it?

We were devastated, actually. Yeah. No, I mean, I think we were legitimately devastated. For us, it was a number one album or bust. Wait, that was a number four record of the Billboard charts. You were devastated that it wasn't number one? Devastated. Wow.

And that was where, again, looking back, I think I could have done a better job, probably. at educating the record company and making them feel a little bit more involved in the early days as we were building still very much independently. We were putting out these free albums and touring the country. At that point, I think he had gone on...

I think you did a great job. I'm sorry to interrupt you, bro. You did an amazing job, and we were working with people who aren't at that company anymore because it's like musical chairs who didn't believe in your vision. And you're talking about like communicating, bro,

you did a fantastic... job and to say what Chris won't they undershipped us they didn't believe in us so much that they undershipped my album and you had all these other huge artists with you know 400,000 plus CDs in stores and I had fans going to Best Buy having to have the workers there go to the back and take it out of the box because they are labeled it and believe in us enough to even buy shelf space not just new release shelf space but shelf space so I just have to say you're the man, bro, and you did your job. But I have to say, I mean, I mean, just let's put some perspective on this for a sec.

I mean, there are thousands of records that are released every single week around the world. Like number four on the U.S. Billboard charts, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of albums will ever get that high. That's a huge achievement. I mean, like, even if, okay, I believe you that you were sad. It wasn't number one, but it sounds like you spent the first two years building up the awareness and by the time that album came out it was gonna it was gonna sell our records sold a million copies i guess um eventually yeah i think that was the first time that we proved to not only

ourselves because i didn't think we needed to i think we understood it and we we believed in and knew what we were building but i think we proved to the business and and really the world that what we had built i think a lot of people viewed it as almost like building it in a vacuum i remember having the conversations and being incredibly frustrated, you know, with the head of sales at the time at Def Jam, where he didn't understand because he's like, hey, you have zero, you have never sold the song in the history of your career. And I'm like, that's accurate. But we had sold a hundred thousand tickets, an X number of dollars in merch. So that's going to translate because it's fans who are invested in him, right? It's the first time we're asking them, not even asking,

and we're putting out music for sale, if they're coming to shows and selling out rooms across the country and we're selling out shows all over Europe, they're going to buy an album for $7.99. To me, that was the next logical step is like, okay, it's just the natural progression of his career. Now he's a major label artist, and we're going to sell music. Logic, when you perform, right, do you feel like you're the same person?

Do you feel like you're sort of a heightened version of yourself? Do you feel like you're almost embodying a character when you're on stage? Oh, man. What a... Yeah. I think I'm me at my purest form in a way. Like the best version of you? Well, not even.

I think the most vulnerable. I used to be so nervous if I would mess up a line or flub here or do this or do that. But then you got to realize it's like, do you know how many lyrics are in my mind? Like right now, one breath. Get down to lay down. Hit you with a burvite. Get better to stay down. Straight shots on a place.

playground, living how I'm living with the life that I'm giving anybody. Just ride them with me. I'm riding with him. Show me the enemy and I'm a hit him in a I'm hit him with the venom. I don't need to pretend I'm I never do it. I knew it already been through it. I do it for the street, for the fan, for the life, anybody that's gang related. Like, do it. Like, do how many times I had to mess that up to be able to do it like? I cannot imagine. Yeah, but it's like, I was kicking myself. It wasn't good enough enough. I was, I was Michael Jackson and after the show, I was Joe Jackson, looking in the mirror, like, how could you do this? And then I kind of started to realize like, yo, it ain't that deep, man. Like, and it was because I felt I was at a time where I was at a time where I was, needed to like prove myself so everything had to be perfect but it's like yo if you hit one wrong key bro it ain't that deep you know why because you have a sold out arena at the garden of people who if you make a mistake if anything it makes them feel a further connection to you because totally mistakes because we all make mistakes so it's definitely a heightened version but a more vulnerable version you guys released on the second studio release was the incredible true story that debuted at number three on the billboard charts your third album everybody debuts at number one and

i think a huge train point in terms of like your mainstream popularity and maybe i think it's fair to say superstardom was a song one 800 273 8255 that came out in 2017 um how did that song come about oh man it's so crazy so earlier with the second album uh we did a tour where you know we paid six figures for a tour bus for fans to go to their homes and surprise them and play them the second album before it was even out. And, you know, we ate dinner

with these people and met their families and their friends and I heard about their hopes and dreams and hard times and happy times. And the biggest thing that I heard, you know, when they would talk about my music, they're like, yeah, dude, I love your music. Like, it goes without saying, like, you make great music.

And I'm like, wow, well, thank you. But they're like, but that's not it. the reason I love you, like logic and your brand and what you represent, is because of the message. You know, there's people who are like, you know, you've saved my life. Your music has saved my life. And I, after that, I thought about it for a long time. And I was like, yo, I didn't even try to do that.

And I actually have the power to do that. Could you imagine what that would be like? And so when I wrote it, I knew it had to be simple, man. It had to be. And it just came. It just was, we were just in the studio. and I had the hook and I sang it and then I did the verse and then I knew in my heart I was like, man, I need other people on this and I need other young influential people, you know, that can help get this message out. Mind you, I'm not in the studio like, yo, this song about killing yourself is about to be a banging number one.

Like no, like no way. None, nobody, I don't care. Nobody saw that. Like, nobody saw that. And it was Chris who had the idea to make it 1,800, 275, you know, and really give it the whole number because then we could reach people and give them that platform. And that number, the name of the song, 1-800-273-8-255, that is the telephone. And that number, the name of the song, 1-800-273-8-255, that is the telephone number. for the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, which is, I mean, wow, like, you could have called that song, I want to be alive or something else.

And you, by giving it that title of the phone number, it was like, it was just super powerful. And did you, did you know that? You know, hindsight's like 20-20. Like, we could sit here now and be like, oh, of course it could have been. But like, no, like, especially with what was on the radio. I mean, it's glorification. and we knew it was a great song. And it's funny because then the song comes out

and you got people like, well, of course it's going to do well. And it's like, get out of here, man. We had no clue. Did you, I mean, I understand that you were singing on that record from different perspectives of sort of embodying different voices. But did you ever feel that way? Were you ever suicidal in your life? Here's the crazy thing.

I've never thought, I've thought about killing myself. I've thought about punching anything. cash register. These are intrusive thoughts that just happened. We're human. Like, they, they happen. And it wasn't until I was, like, I experienced true depression and didn't even know I was depressed while I was touring and working that song. Because everywhere I was going, it's suicide, suicide, suicide, talk about killing yourself. Talk about this. Let's talk about this. Oh, death, death, death. And I mean, can you imagine doing a solid year of talking about killing yourself? Even if you aren't like talking about killing yourself, in particular as the

artist singing the song but it's like yo and that is is crazy and going from like i'd given up on trying to get a hit record and i remember telling chris before that album i was like i'm done i don't want to do it i was always like in the studio trying to make hits that doesn't mean i wasn't trying to make something from the heart but it's like man i wanted to be drake and rick ross and this i wanted to be that popular guy too and when i gave up i ended up making the song that did it and then i kind of was like oh man like i love this i love being in the spotlight and being in the spotlight for a positive message, but I just worked it and worked it and grinded and did it so much where I was waking up every day and I wasn't happy going on stage. And I guess at the end of that, sort of towards

the end of that just long stretch of touring, this is in sort of the fall of 2017. You actually had a breakdown like on concert. What happened? This is in Pittsburgh. What happened? Yeah, it's crazy, man. So I'm backstage throwing up before I'm going on. I'm malnourished. I'm completely unhealthy. You know. Were you nervous? Or was it just? No, I wasn't nervous. No, I was like, you feel like you're out of your body. Like you, you feel like a little person in your brain kind of like, you take a swig of water and you're like, wait, did I actually drink that water right now? And what I've come to realize, I think it's a hope, a hyper-analization of the world around you in real time. And that was really hard.

So I'm going through all this and, you know, won't really get too much into it. But obviously I was dealing with like relationship issues and I'm trying to manage a company and my business. and make albums and go on tours. And there was a time where I was even like, like I love Chris. He's my partner. And I want to like quit, not quit rap or that,

but I just, I just want to run away. But I can't because we got multi-million dollar deals on the table. And if I don't do this, then it's all going to crumble. And he's sacrificed his life for me. I'm up here. It's all the weight of it's on my shoulders.

I can't. I can't do this. I can't do that to him. I can't. And then I start realizing I'm doing shows for other people, not just him for myself and for my, my future. your family and I have to stack this money for my children and I've come from nothing and if I don't do

this it could go away and they like me now but then they might not later and I go on Instagram and it's you suck and you're terrible and you're going bald and you're white and you're you can't rap and you're horrible you're a disgrace to hip hop and what is this one 800? I like you better when you rap like this and somebody's like well I like this and you don't like and your mind is going crazy and you step on stage and you don't want to be there after nine months I mean think about nine months on the road Nine months of hotels, nine months of dark places and behind the scenes and this. And I'm a human being. And that's something that a lot of people don't understand.

Fame be like, fame is crazy. And that's what that was. And I didn't go home and shoot guns and rob this and just like, no, I went home. And I said, I'm going to go see my therapist. Do I see regularly? I'm going to drink a lot of water. I'm going to work out. I'm going to eat better.

And I realize that my goals have changed. you know it's like it's not about money anymore it's about it's about happiness why go do a show just because it's going to make me five hundred thousand dollars in an hour on stage like that's great but if i'm not there i should want to be on that stage and now i do i want to be on that stage because i've taken that time chris how did you how did you deal with with logics anxiety and exhaustion and and you know that what happened in pittsburgh like that that that wasn't just a i mean obviously that was an expression of things that were probably building up over a long time. How did you cope with it?

And what did you do? I mean, immediately, you kind of put on the friend hat, right? Because that's what makes this relationship and specials that, again, you generally care about him. So for me, it was a lot of questions about, hey, how can I make you feel better and what can I change? What can we do differently to make sure something like that? like this doesn't happen again. And we learned a lot from it. I think both him and I on how to move forward and conduct the business and operate on a daily basis even. It kind of changed a lot of the things we did from just daily communication to what we say yes to, to what we say no to.

And I think we're better for it. I think he'll say the same thing. And I think we're going to be much more successful moving forward and it's because we got through that and it allowed us to grow. So when I think about the business that you guys have created, I'm curious about where it goes from here. Like I think about like if I'm an investor, right? And I go to Jay-Z or to Kanye West, like I could buy their company outright and Jay-Z could leave the picture because there's still like an investment arm and there's a label and there's a label and there's. There's other things that at this point, you don't necessarily need Jay-Z. The business can thrive.

Right now, you have a business around your brand, whether it's performing or selling merchandise or the tour or writing books or acting. And all of those are great, but they all require you to constantly stay on the hamster wheel. Did you ever, both of you, do you ever sort of think about how do we build something for the future that may not require both of us that can just be a business that is even bigger than the two of us? Well, one, I think Chris has already done that in Visionary Music Group and the partnerships that he has, but I won't speak for you. I'll let you say that. But even still, I have a record label and we're both equal partners on that that we run together. called Elysium with artists that I've signed that we believe in, that will go out and essentially make us money, you know, by killing it. So it's those businesses. And I think that mind state, like, I have a production company and I haven't really discussed it too much, but it's called Bobby Boy.

And these are the things I'm doing my films through. And yeah, and exactly. And so imagine, like, if I have this production company and I write a script and somebody else takes the wheel. So I, I am looking at the future through still being creative, but more so behind the scenes, because I have a fan base that wants any product I am willing to give them as long as they are familiar with where it is coming from. So how about you, Chris? What do you think? Yeah, I mean, the brand logic, there's a lot of equity in that now. And, you know, I'm growing my business and have used my experience and I think some of the relationships and most important I think the knowledge and experience that I've been able to gain while building logic career right next to him. I've recently took on a handful of more

clients. I think I've seven management clients right now. I just did a joint venture label with Sony music, which I'm very, very excited about. So yeah, there's a lot of things to look forward to. Well, one thing I will say, though, is we kind of didn't answer his question. And the question was what do we have? So kind of, because we have these artists, you have these artists, we have these artists, that are doing things for us. I can't speak for Chris.

I like to think I can when I say this. You said, you know, that we're always on, the hamster wheel is always going. The truth is my brain is a hamster wheel. It does not stop. And that's how I live. So I have to be involved somewhere. If I'm not involved.

I trust no one with my money, with my company, with my this, with my that, if I'm not involved. Like, I trust Chris with my life, but I'm not just going to be like, just go take it. Not because I don't trust them, but because I don't work that way.

I need to know how you cook the fries at McDonald's, who sweeps the floors, who flips the burgers, the exact time to flip the burgers, this, this, that even if I'm sitting all the way on the 57th floor in the CEO chair, I need to know.

So this is a question that I ask everybody who comes on the show, and of course I'm going to ask both of you. First you, Chris, when you think about the journey that you've taken, you know, 20-year-old, no experience.

like pitching this guy logic to where you are now. Like how much of that do you attribute to just really hard work and intelligence and skill? And how much of that do you attribute to luck? I think it's probably somewhere in the middle between the both. You know, I look back, you know, at my life and I think being, you know, raised by my parents played a large role in who I am as a person today and instilling confidence in me. how serendipally played such a role in me discovering who Logic was. I told the story if I hadn't been sitting at my computer at that very moment to click that YouTube link and see the video of Logic, I don't think we'd be sitting here today.

But there's a large portion of that where, you know, it just takes an almost unimaginable amount of hard work and perseverance because of every roadblock and every door that's closed to figure out a way to get through it. I think it lives somewhere in the middle. I think my journey, I would probably have one foot in hard work and intelligence and grind and hustle and one foot in pure and simple luck. Logic? Yeah.

I mean, I think in the beginning it's a lot of luck, right? Because without that luck, you wouldn't even be blessed enough to be in those positions in those situations. You know what's really funny? I can't speak for other famous people, celebrities, musicians, whatever, but I can tell you, like, no one knows how hard I work. And until you, how hard we can work. And I pay out over a million dollars in salary to my employees a year.

This is a real, real company and hard work, man. You work hard every mother-effender day. I work out every mother-day. We work hard every month. Hey, I work hard every motherfucker. That's Logic, aka Bobby Tarantino, aka Young Sinatra, aka Sir Robert Bryson Hall II,

and Chris Zeroux, founder of Visionary Music Group. Despite the success of Logic's music, both Chris and Logic are relying on an old business strategy to keep the business relevant. That would be the strategy of diversification. In addition to working on a new record, Logics writing a book, and a film script.

And for his part, Chris has taken on several new artists to manage, including up-and-comers like John Bellion, Chelsea Cutler, and AOK. And as you mentioned earlier, Chris is launching a joint venture with Sony to build a brand-new label. It's called What Else? Visionary Records. Hey, thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for how you built that. And today we're updating a story we ran about two years ago from a woman in Stateline Nevada. Hi, my name is Cassie Burnside and I'm the owner and founder of Fat Co. Yep, Fatco.

And why would anyone want to put the word fat into the name of their startup? Well, you have to go back a bit because about seven years ago, Cassie started to notice something that kind of bugged her. I would go shopping and I would look at labels and look at ingredient panels and not be able to read anything or pronounce anything. I had no idea what these ingredients were. And she was especially bothered by products that go directly onto your skin, like deodorant and lotions and creams. But then she thought, maybe I can make some of those things myself and use, you know, old-fashioned ingredients. Those were ingredients that we used a lot in soap making. It was used a lot in candle making.

And I started wondering, like, why don't we use them anymore? Why did those things go away? And here is where fat comes in. Because Cassie realized that animal fat, it used to be able to. a main ingredient in things like soap and lotions. And so she decided, why not make skin products with beef tallow, the fat from a cow? And you chop it up and you cook it low and slow. And rendered tallow is the liquid fat that drips off of that hard fat during that rendering process.

Just to be clear, Cassie does not do this at home. She gets her tallow from a company in Colorado that specializes in rendered fat. And then she mixes the fat with other oils and forms. fragrances to make things like body butter and lotion and those kinds of things. They're nourishing, they're nutrient dense. They're very concentrated and a little goes a long way. Cassie says she took a big risk five years ago when she quit her engineering job to start Fatco. But for the past three years, she's made about $600,000 each year. And last year, in January of 2018, Target started selling Fatco products.

As for all the friends and family who told her this wouldn't, never work? They are not saying that anymore. Even my mom told me I was a little crazy, but now she's our biggest fan. She will go to her grave saying she was customer one for Fatco. Cassie's company is called Fatco. They're launching five new products this month. If you want to find out more about it or hear previous episodes, head to our podcast page, How I Built This.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts,

and while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write to us at hibt at npr.org, and if you want to send a tweet, it's at How I Built This. Our show is produced this week by James Dela Hussi, with music composed by Rumpteen Arablewe. Thanks also to Julia Carney, J.C. Howard, Nora Kudzi, Neva Grant, Melissa Gray, Sanaz Meshkenpour, and Jeff Rogers.

Our intern is Candice Lim. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR.