How I Built This with Guy Raz - Norma Kamali: Norma Kamali (2021)

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

When Norma Kamali studied fashion illustration in the 1960s, she never expected to become a designer. So when a job as an airline clerk came along, she was glad to accept it—along with the perk of dirt-cheap flights from New York to London. On those weekend trips abroad, she discovered fashion that was exuberant and eye-catching, so she started loading her suitcase with clothing to sell in the U.S. By the 1970s, she was designing her own pieces out of a shop in New York; soon she was selling them to celebrities like Cher and Bette Midler. Today, after more than 50 years in the fashion industry, Norma Kamali is known for iconic designs like the sleeping bag coat, and the bold red bathing suit popularized by Farah Fawcett.This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant.You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram, and email us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Airbnb.ca.ca. slash host. Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So this week, we're pulling one from our archives. It's an episode with Norma Kamali, the legendary and iconic fashion designer. So iconic in fact that recently she's been building an AI model of herself with the hope that her team can use it in the future to create new Norma Kamali designs based on her aesthetic. Also, if you want to hear more from Norma, she came back on the show a few weeks ago, this time on the advice line. So you can scroll back in the podcast queue to hear her give advice to up-and-coming entrepreneurs. It's another super fun conversation. But this episode will blow your mind. It is an epic tale. It is a hero's journey. Here is her first appearance on how I built this from 2021. Well, I started to make

some things and I would put them in the store to see how they would do and they would do really well and so the majority of the stock slowly became my designs and I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good size page in Bazaar and that was beyond belief because I thought somebody is going to find me I don't know what I'm doing. And I have a full page in vogue and bizarre. This is nuts. Like, I don't have a clue. Welcome to How I Built This,

a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Norma Kamali built a 50-year career around hot pants, sleeping bag coats, and a Farah Fawcett swimsuit and helped usher in the era of American fashion design. Starting a brand and then scaling it fast is hard. The Glasses Company Warby Parker was founded in 2010,

and within five years, it was valued at over a billion dollars. The suitcase maker, Away, was launched in 2015, and by 2019, investors valued it at $1.4 billion. dollars, both incredible achievements and both incredibly rare achievements. But what's just as hard, maybe even harder, is to build a brand that endures that lasts a long time. Think Dell Computers and Southwest Airlines or even Starbucks and Burton snowboards, all stories we've told on the show. And this raises a question, what does it take to last to build something that can withstand? changes in culture or in technology or in lifestyle.

Well, in many ways, our story today answers that question, because fashion designer Norma Kamali figured it out. She's been able to build a brand that your mom might have worn and that you'd want to wear too. She's probably best known for creating the sleeping bag coat, but also helping to popularize hot pants, shoulder pads for women, the all-in-one dress, and for designing the iconic red bathing suit made famous by supermodel Farah Fawcett,

a piece that is actually in the permanent collection at the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, D.C. But this isn't just a story about someone with incredible staying power as a fashion designer. This is, you could argue, the story of modern American fashion design. Because back before, say, the 1960s, design, for the most part, happened in Europe. To wear something fancy usually meant wearing Hermes or Chanel or Christian Dior, not Donna Karen or Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein. And Norma Kamali was in the vanguard of young designers who changed all of that. She grew up in the 1950s in Manhattan in an immigrant neighborhood called Yorkville. Her mother was Lebanese and her father was Basque. When Norma was little, her parents

split up and when she was 13, both her parents were. her father and her stepfather died. So Norma was mainly raised by her mom, who, according to Norma, was an incredibly creative person. My mother always had an easel with oil paints, where she was in the middle of an oil painting while she was cooking some incredible dish that she just created. She made costumes for the plays that we had in the neighborhood for all the kids, but beautiful research costumes. And so I thought that that's what everybody does. And so I was drawing very early.

I was doing creative things for as long as I can remember. And it was a great satisfaction for me. And did you have easels and canvases all over your house? And were you constantly painting? Actually, no. because the house was about two feet by three feet. So there was just enough space, let's say, really tiny space. So in this neighborhood, we had a community house that we would go to after school,

and that's where I did a lot of painting. And then I enjoyed sitting by the river and sketching. it was such a happy place to just see a beautiful view and being able to sketch it. But when it came time to go to college, you didn't go to art school. Instead, you wound up getting a scholarship to FIT, which is the Fashion Institute of Technology, right? Yeah, I decided on FIT because my mother was very clear that she didn't think. think painting was actually going to help me pay the rent because she wanted me to know that she was not going to help me pay the rent. So I went to FIT to see where that would take me.

But you have to know that I hated fashion because it was madman time, right? That girdles, garter belts, cone bras, the whole thing. And everything was matchy. This was like the early 60s. Yeah, yeah. And I did not like that at all. I found it very restricting. And I was obsessed with vintage films from the 30s and 40s. So I was already going into these sort of secondhand stores.

They weren't called vintage stores at the time. Right. And I would find these clothes and wear them. And I was just off the grid. Like nobody got me. And I didn't study fashion. I didn't study pattern making. I studied fashion illustration with, and this was at the time,

there were actual jobs that you could get in fashion illustration. Now, I mean, people probably don't even know what that means as far as an advertising style. So you studied fashion illustration, which is. Right. basically drawing outfits on models. And I was able to really study anatomy in a big way. I used to take a lot of courses on anatomy outside of FIT. And from that, I really understanding the body, the movement of the body, the muscle over the bone

and the skin over. So it all comes together. Yeah. And were you an ambitious student? Did you think, I'm going to do this and then I'm going to become a fashion designer. I'm going to make a name for myself. No. First of all, let's put this in perspective of the early 60s.

Yeah. It wasn't until the 70s that being a designer in a design house was an American concept, right? So the jobs that you would get in the 60s would be manufacturers who knocked off European fashion. Yeah. Even the department stores at the time would copy the collections and put them under their store brands. So if you look at vintage clothes,

you'll see in a lot of the labels, the store that carried them, not necessarily the manufacturer or the designer because that was the way it was done. So the store was really, the brand. And I want to add to that, women in the workplace, in the 60s, think madmen again. Most of the women were secretaries, assistants, had those kinds of jobs. So I just thought, if I can get a fashion illustration job at a company or at a newspaper or a magazine, that would

be fine. I would be happy with that. And so my first job interview was in the garment center at a manufacturer. Unfortunately, it was a difficult experience. It was an objectifying experience. When you went in for an interview? Yeah. So I was very happy with my portfolio. I felt very good about it. This is your portfolio of your illustrations. Yes, yes. So I was so excited to be graduating and, you know, hopefully at this job. And I walk in and he's got his feet up on his desk. He's eating a tuna sandwich.

And he tells me to put my portfolio down. And I was wearing a little black dress below my knee. low pumps. My hair was back in a bun. It was very low key. And he said to me, come here and turn around for me. And I just, there was this white noise and I thought, what does that mean? And he's the power in the room. And I hear my mother's voice saying, you better get this job. You better get a job. And so I turned around and I just, was so embarrassed and humiliated. And I ran out of the office.

I grabbed my portfolio, and I remember my portfolio tearing up my stockings and I'm clip-clopping on my pumps, and I'm feeling and crying and so devastated. So when I got home, my mother said, well, did you get the job? And I said, no, I didn't get it. And I got a New York Times, which is where they had a big section for jobs that were available.

And I saw a job at an airline. And at the time, Pan Am, TWA, all of these airlines were the Apple of the time, right? Those were the jobs you wanted. Yeah. And so I, of course, didn't want to be a stewardess. and I had zero office skills, but I went for the job because I thought, I want to travel. That's what I want to do. I want to see the world.

I don't want to do this. And so I went for the job and shockingly, I got it. And the next thing I know, I'm working at a UNIVAC computer in the 60s. Besides education, airlines were the first ones to actually commercial. use computers. And so what was your, you were hired by Northwest. Northwest Orient Airlines in the office at Penn Plaza, yeah. And as a, as what was your official job?

So I was a reservation specialist and basically a clerk. And I worked in this big room with desks all in a row. facing a big glass-din walled office, and every single call was monitored, and people were in there with headphones listening to how we handle our calls. So people call up and, like, if they want to book a ticket, you would be the person that they talked to. Right. I was Agent 1006. I still remember it, and it was North East Orient Airlines. May I help you? I mean, I still, in my, you know. So when you worked for Northwest Orient Airlines, which eventually became Northwestern and now is no longer exists.

Pardon me as a merger of Delta. Did you get discounts on travel? Yes. And that was the reason I wanted to work at an airline. So the discount to travel round trip to London was $29. Wow. From New York to London for $29. Yes.

And I, every weekend, I would leave Thursday night and come back Monday. Wow. And that was like the glamour, the height of glamour travel. Yeah. And everybody dressed to travel. Yeah. So you were going back and forth to London in the mid-60s and just hanging out in London? So my first trip, I did a stop first in Paris.

I met my girlfriend in Paris that was at FIT with me and we met in the lobby of her hotel and I was waiting for her and at the same time there was a rock group from London in the lobby and so they thought I was French and they were talking about me and I was really trying not to divulge that I knew they were talking about

and so my friend Betsy came And of course, we see each other and we're screaming and they started laughing and they said, oh, so you're an American. And it was the Spencer Davis group. I don't know if you know who they are. You know, the song, I'm a man. I'm a man. Yes, I am.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's what it is. And they said, when you guys come back to London, there's a club called the Speak Easy and we'll get you in. So we said, sure. And when we got back to London, we, of course, went to the speak-easy on Margaret Street. And this was this club, this private club, where all of the rock people, the everybody, I got to meet Jimmy Hendricks and everybody. Oh, my God. You were really like in the, got into the scene.

Like, this is like swinging 60s, Carnaby Street, London. Yeah. Jeff Beck. Yeah. Jeff Beck was a really good friend. And at this club, I met these two guys who were really nice, and one of them said, you're going to really get along with my girlfriend really well. Tomorrow come meet us at our shop. And so they had a shop, and the stones were partners with them in the shop. Where was the shop? On Kings Road.

On Kings Road in Chelsea, okay. A friend of mine at the airline suggested I stay at a boarding house off Kings Road. for $6 a night. So I did. And so this was when Kings Road was all gray, except for a few stores that just burst color up the walls outside. And Dandies, which was the name of the shop, was one of those stores. Wow.

What was this? And what did the store sell? They had men's clothes, women's clothes. They had a motorcycle in the store and a car engine. and I actually have a photo of four of us outside on Kings Road. Parry Match came and did a color double-page spread of all of us dressed in the clothes from dandies. Wow. And it's hysterical.

It looks like it's a costume party, but it wasn't a costume party. It was what we were really wearing. And the clothes were great. And by the way, this is a time, if I'm not mistaken, When London was like, it was the center, like the cultural center of the Western world. I mean, of course, you know, there were massive, like student demonstrations were beginning in Berkeley and in New York City and in Paris. But like culturally, right, London was Carnaby Street and the Stones and the Beatles. Everything.

And people were wearing things that you were not seeing in New York. Right. Completely different. I connected right away with it. I felt that that was where my soul was. I was totally comfortable with it. So when I talk about London being gray, you think of these tweed coats and the hats

in the gray London and this color bursting, literally bursting, and the music blaring out of the stores, it was art in expression in every way that you could think of. film, music, fashion for sure, so much had just flipped and went against the grain of anything that had happened before. So when I would come back from London with my skirt very short, mini, nobody had been wearing mini skirts before that. So when I came back and I would walk in the street with a miniskirt, cars would screech to a hall. It was shocking and people would say the most

ridiculous things like, you know, either that you're a prostitute or what do you, what, but the shock of showing your knees. And that was completely like radical when you would come back to New York? Radical. Radical. I guess around this time, you, this is sort of the mid, mid-60s, you met a guy named Eddie Kamali who would go on to be your husband. How did you meet him? His name was Mohamed Hussein Kamali, and his spoken name was Mansour, and some of his friends would call him Eddie. And I love to dance, and there was a club that opened that was a very small club, and it turned out that I knew the DJ. And he was. was like, oh, Mom, I'm so glad you came. And he said, they're going to have dance contests here.

And I think you should enter the dance contest. And I was like, I don't know. And he said, yeah, and I know a guy that's a really good dancer that you should dance with. And they have prize money that you could win. So he introduced me to Eddie Kamali. And of course, we won the dance contest. So that in itself is enough reason to get married at 19. God. Oh, God, Norma. My mom also got married at 19, which was not unusual. No.

And so 19 years old, because I'm thinking, Norma, what are you thinking? I know. Right? So you were 19. You're married. So you and Eddie were married when you were going back and forth to London. Yeah. Yeah.

And was he coming with you or were you going by yourself? No. He was a student here. He was studying economics. He was one of a flood of Iranian students that came during the Shah's time. Yeah. So I would go to London and it was pretty early on that I started to bring back clothes for friends of mine who were saying, you've got to get me this, this.

And so I would bring back these little dresses from, you know, be able. and bus stop and all of those shops in the garment bag. And I got those with the sort of expandable sides. And I literally, it would be like I was carrying a body through my carry on. You were just packing your suitcase and bringing stuff back, seeing that to pay shipping costs. I mean, I just didn't know better that you should. I mean, I was this, oh, this sounds good.

And I just did it. And I did that for very, I mean, four. years. Meantime, you're still working for the airline, right? Yes. I'm working for the airlines and bringing clothes back, yeah. This is around like 1968, I guess. And that year you would go on to open a store selling clothes. But how did you connect the dots? I mean, you're obviously bringing clothes back for friends. But at what point did you say, you know what, I should actually open a shop and sell this stuff? well it was obvious to me that more and more people were asking me to bring clothes back and

and i thought i don't know maybe this is maybe this is a good idea and having a shop would sort of solidify what i'm doing it would you know make it have a purpose not to just be sort of like a cattle car coming back and forth with clothes um and the the good news was because Eddie was a student, he would have time off that he could work in the store and sell. And he was great at selling, very charming. And while I was at the airlines, he was selling the clothes in the store. I mean, this is 1968, so it's not New York today, because New York real estate today is, it's almost impossible for the average person to just rent a place in New York. But how realistic? I mean, you were a reservations clerk. How were you able to rent a space in New York City? Was it cheap? Was it just cheap? Well, it was $285 a month. Nice.

It was a basement. It was literally nine by 16. Where was it? On East 53rd Street. This is 53rd between what streets? Second and third. Between second and third. Okay, so this is midtown. Yeah. But by the way, did anybody in your office know that you had a shop selling fashion? That's a good question. I kept it a secret. But the interesting thing was there were very strict rules on dress code at all airlines.

Very strict. Not uniforms, but you had to wear nude stockings, low-heeled shoes. And I took advantage of the fact that I was. really good at my job. And I had a feeling I would not get fired if I wore, say, a wig or a boa around my neck. Wait, wait. You just said it was like a conservative environment. Yes. So how were you able to wear a boa or a wig? It happened over a period of time. And I think they sort of got used to it. And I never got sent home. People would get sent home. But I was, really good at selling tours, tours to the Orient. I mean, I really made some big bucks for them. And I

learned, I have to say, I learned how to sell through that job. I learned how I learned service, sales. It was a great learning experience for me. All right. So you, this store, I'm assuming, when you opened it up, there was nothing like it because it was you're selling clothing from the UK. London, yeah. And so people looked at shopping as sort of a sport or a sort of a thing that you did. So couples would get dressed to go shopping and word would get out. It would almost be like going to art galleries, right, where people want to go see what's going on. And couples of all ages, all types of people would come and shop. And a lot of the fashion magazines, a lot of the stores, you know, big department stores would come to see what we were doing.

But we sold things to people of all ages. I mean, I still have people who are in their 80s now who are telling me they wore my clothes. And I think it's so funny. Here's somebody who's 86 who is telling me she wore my clothes. And I think, that's pretty fab. That's really good. By the way, what was the store called? Kamali.

Kamali, okay. And Eddie, was he, like, did he, because he came to study economics, but did he prove to be actually a pretty good sales person? First of all, he was incredibly handsome and incredibly charming. And he left Iran when he was 11 and was in boarding schools in London, outside of London, until he came here. to go to college. So he had that British accent that charming. Yeah. Yeah.

So he charmed everybody that came in the store. And then he would say, I would say to him, Eddie, I think this is way too much money to charge for this. And he would say, I'm going to sell it. You'll see. I'll sell it. And I was like, no. And he would.

So then I just thought, well, I don't know what I'm talking about. So I'm just going to be quiet. So he was mainly handling the business side and you were kind of handling the creative side. Was that as I first say? Yeah. But you asked me before, did anybody know at Northwest if I had this company and nobody did nobody did until Time magazine decided to do a story on snake skin and how snake skin was becoming the accessory or whatever.

and I had snake skin wallpaper in the store, and I was making, at that point, I started to make some things, and I was making snake skin vests and shirts and stuff like that. And so they came to 53rd Street, and they photographed Eddie and me in some snake skin in front of our store, and it got into Time magazine, and one day this buzzer starts going off from behind the glass wall at the front

and Norma Kamali come to the front. Wow. This is in the in like that big cavernous room at Northwest Orient. Right. Okay. So I go walking up and they take me into a room and they open the Time magazine and they slap it down and said, what is this? and I said, oh, wow, I didn't even see it myself.

Like, wow. I was so excited and scared at the same time. I didn't know how to react. And they said they frowned on that. And I said, I understand. They frowned on the fact that you had a business or what? Yeah. Yeah.

But I realized then also that this was time that it was, was getting very hard to do both and it just had to make a decision. And they didn't push me out, but in a few months after that, I decided it was time to go. Focus on the, but now you lose your cheap flight to London to be able to bring the stuff back. Right. But it sounds like at this point you're already designing and selling some of your own pieces. Yeah. I started to make. some things. And my mother helped me because, as I told it before, she was great, she made costumes and beautiful clothes. And I really didn't know how to sew. I didn't know how to make a pattern.

I didn't have any of those skills. But my mother and I, through my growing up, would work together at say, Mom, can you make these pants? I want them to do this, this and this. And she would make them until she stopped making things that she didn't think were good for me to wear. So she didn't want to make them. But we did do a lot together before this. So I asked her to help me put together some of my new ideas. And that's how I started it. So we started to do some things together. And I would put them in the store to see how they would do. And they would do really well. And what were you designing? I don't know if there is a term for what the clothing was at that time, to be honest.

They were very creative, mainly one-of-a-kind pieces, handcrafted. I did a lot of snake skin clothing. I did a lot of suede and dough skin, hand-whip stitch. skirts with different shapes and flares. I did the very first suede skin skirt that I made, I hand-wip stitched. You know, you just take a whole puncher and you punch everywhere and then you stitch it together with strips of suede.

And I remember making that skirt. I put my heart and soul into it and I was so proud of it. And of course, Eddie sold it for some whatever ridiculous, amount of money, I thought. And so I had started to accumulate the majority of the stock slowly became my designs. And in a very short time after the clothing was primarily mine, I had a full page in Vogue and I had a good-sized page in Bazaar. And that was beyond belief, I thought somebody is going to find me out. I don't know what I'm doing.

Like, I don't have a clue. And I have a full page in vogue and bizarre. This is nuts. When we come back in just a moment, how Norma found the best person you could possibly imagine to narrate her first fashion show, a then-unknown bet Midler. And how the ceiling eventually came down,

literally and figuratively, on her clothing store. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the late 1960s, and Norma Kamali's clothing store in Midtown Manhattan is starting to get noticed. Her husband, Eddie, is running the place, and she's designing her own versions of some of the most iconic looks of the time. The first thing that got a lot of attention and that, I mean, I'm not going to take credit for being the first to do it, but I don't know anybody else that was doing it at the time was hot pants. Hot pants.

This is in, I guess, like, 1960s. For those who don't know what hot pants are, what are hot pants. So Hot Pants, don't forget, we're talking mini skirts, right? And how do you get a mini skirt shorter than mini? It has to be shorts. We're all wearing boots that just come below our knees. We're sort of having that proportion. And so they were little tiny shorts.

They weren't obscene. They were very cool on long legs with boots. and everybody looked like they had long legs. And I made them, what I did was I treated them as pieces of art. So I would do appliquees and designs on these little tiny shorts. With like rhinestones and stuff? Well, not the rhinestones I did as tops, but the hot pants were mostly velvet, appliquees,

and lots of beautiful colors together. I would do palm trees. and scenes, you know, all kinds of designs like that. And these were short shorts, basically. Yes. Obviously, you went to Fashion Institute Technology. You studied illustration, like super talented, artistic person anyway, really into clothing. But you hadn't been a clothing designer.

This was not part of your skill set. Was that hard to figure out how to do it? Because I think you didn't study clothing design at FIT. No, but I'm obviously glad I didn't because I would have had a certain imprint that would have worked against what I really felt akin to. It was very easy for me to envision what I felt should be next. When you were kind of, you know, you're writing the story, getting attention, you're getting celebrities coming in. Like, I mean, like, Bet Miller and. the New York dolls that they even had like an album cover with one of your uh wearing your clothing

and were you were you getting lots of celebrities coming to the shop tons so bet midler started around the same time we started and we heard about this girl who was funny and an amazing singer and she was singing in this little dive place and so this one night we're at this club and we're sitting right up front by the stage, tiny stage. And this girl comes out, and she is such a good singer, and she's hysterically funny. And she was not famous yet, right? No. She had brown hair, like, to her shoulders.

And she was wearing vintage that was falling apart on her. And in the middle of her act, she stops and says, wait a minute, Who are you people? And where did you get those clothes? I need to get those clothes. And so after the show, I met with her and she said, I have to get these. I should have no money. Can I work for you?

I'll work in your store, whatever, but I just don't have money. Wow. So I said, I know what you can do. I'm going to do my first fashion show. And at the time, fashion shows were narrated. people talked about the clothes and the fashion show. So you had a narrator. So I said, I want you to narrate my fashion show. Bet Midler. Yeah. So this is my first fashion show. So she said, what should I say? I said, I don't care. Anything you want to say when you see the

clothes, you just say whatever you want to say. So we were in this mansion of somebody, a customer, his boyfriend's aunt was selling it or something. And so. Does it a mansion in New York or on Long Island? In New York in the 60s. It was incredible. And so we invited all of these people, including Bill Cunningham. And so I had clothes that looked like this. Let me explain what this was.

I had big polka dot ruffled jackets. I had gold lame caprice. I had platforms shoes. I had clothes that nobody's, in fact, stretch was not available in fabric. So the stretch I was using was actually girdle and circus fabric. And I used circus fabric to make these pieces. And so this is the tone. This is not what anybody was doing.

So all of these fashion people come. Bet is sitting on a piano with a microphone. and she's saying whatever she wants and the people are looking at my clothes like like I lost my mind. This is just totally nuts. Totally crazy. The designer lost her mind and that woman on the piano lost her mind. Like nobody knew either one of us. But you had a bunch of like fashionistas there and Bill Cunningham.

It was like a big fashion photographer. No, he wasn't a big fashion photographer. This is this, you know, the 60s. I got you. So he took a ton of photos, and that's when we became friends. And he said, dearie, I'm telling you something, they're going to come back and understand what you're doing. Wow. This is like a time capsule of like such a moment in New York City.

Beth Midler and Bill Konyam unknowns and Norma Kamali. Okay. So I'm curious about the actual shop, right? because it's doing pretty well. It must have been doing really well because by 1974, this is like six years in, you had to move to a bigger space. You went to Madison Avenue. Right.

So when we moved in to Madison, I thought, if we're on Madison Avenue, I have to do different clothes. I have to grow up. I have to learn how to make really beautiful, well-made suits and dresses. So I started to do suiting, but classical suiting. And I was making suits for Raquel Welsh and Cher and everybody. So it really was the right decision to make, the right place to go. And that period of time in New York fashion was very creative.

And it was one of my very creative times as well. But it sounds like you were focusing more now on professional clothing or like sort of high-end suits and dresses. I mean, you'd gone from, you've been doing hot pants and, right, some of these. And snake skin and velvet, you know, bell bottoms. So things you would, you would kind of wear at clubs or you would wear in the scene. And this sounds like you were now kind of shifting to making clothing that you might wear in an office or sort of a fine dining restaurant. It was a little, it still was very, very, very, unique in the design. It still was not typical of what you could find anywhere else.

And prior to that, people only knew Eddie. They didn't know me. I was very much in the background, an occasional photo or something like that. But he really was the face of the brand. And then I started to get a little recognition. People wanted to know where the clothes were coming from. And so that was happening about that time. Were you interested in the business side, or did you kind of let Eddie handle that and kind of just focus on the creative side?

Yeah, I did. You know, this is a time when women would not consider business, as something they typically would do. It was okay to be creative in that space, but the business part of it, I never considered something that I want to have the responsibility of, and I assumed, like everyone else, that men were better at business, that women.

I, you know, my world was that. Everybody believed it and assumed that that was the truth. And so he was in charge of hiring employees and making sure people came in on. And you were, I know we're going to get to what happened later on, but at this time, you know, when you're in the store in Madison Avenue, what was your relationship with Eddie like? Was it a pretty good marriage? Well, you know, when you're 19, you're really still a child. It's just you're a child in a grown-up body.

And by 1974, you know, our identity started to form, and we were clearly going in different directions, which is expected, right? I mean, how do you not? I was so happy to have found something I loved to do, and I worked so hard because I loved every minute of it, was. work. He was much more social and outgoing. So there was sort of a difference in the way we looked at life and the way we looked at everything. He was more of like a partier? Really big time partier. And he was very into drugs and very into the nightlife. And, Money is being spent on drugs and being spent on things that are not business related. And it became more and more difficult for me to get fabric and to just sort of do the basic things that you need.

Wow. I mean, meantime, your, like your profile, I have to assume, is rising. I mean, you had this kind of big, big breakthrough in 1975 with, with the sleeping bag coat, that anybody, I mean, people who don't know it, just type it and you'll see and you'll say, oh, of course, I know that. That's a sleeping bag coat. It was like a big puffer jacket that looked like a sleeping bag and you wore a coat and became like this iconic thing. How did you come up with that idea? Well, I loved camping and I loved doing the whole canoeing and going down the rapids. And so at one cold night when I was trying to figure out how I was going to get out of my sleeping bag to find a place to go to the bathroom, I said I'm not getting out of my sleeping bag. It's coming with me.

So I wrapped it around myself. and as I was wrapped in it, I thought, you know, I think I'm going to go back and make a coat out of this. And so the first sleeping bag coat was my actual sleeping bag. And I used every bit of it. I was very conscious of saving fabric and, you know, very, very careful about those things. And that pattern is still the pattern I use today for the classic, sleeping back coat and I've made the coat every year since. Wow. And and that coat right, that was, I think it was like the first, because that material, right, sleeping bag material was just like

puffer jackets. Like I read that people really did not wear puffer jackets unless they went skiing. Now it's like, you know, a North Face or a Patagonia puffer jacket's like, you know, a fashion statement. But at that time, like, people only wore them to go skiing or for, so it was sort of like unusual, right, for that material to be used in just a coat. Well, first of all, sleeping bag fabric was different from fabric you went skiing in. Mine was sort of a khaki fabric on one side, and the inside was flannel with geese. And it was fabulous. And then I bought a ton of sleeping bags and just started cutting them up like a crazy woman making sleeping bag coats. Was it a hit right away, the sleeping bag coat?

It actually was. And, you know, that's like 74, 75, 76, Studio 54 opens, and the doorman are wearing my sleeping bag coat. And so people decided if they bought the sleeping bag coat and stood outside, you know, maybe that would be a way they could get inside. And I did not dissuade them. So we sold a lot of sleeping bag coats during that period of time. You know, I'm surprised that you, I'm curious about your public profile, right?

Because by the late 70s, I mean, you were getting Bianca Jagger coming into your store and like Ian Schrager and, you know, of Studio 54 and like all these sort of New York iconic. fashion kind of in crowd people coming in. But it sounds like you didn't have as much of a public profile as Eddie come up. You were Norma Kamali. You were designing this stuff. Did people know who you were? No, my personality has always been, even up till now, very, very private. I always felt intuitively that my clothes,

should be the star. My clothes should make people feel good. People wearing my clothes should be the celebrities and the stars. And my personality is really not an outgoing personality. However, I attribute that decision, quite frankly, through the years to one of the reasons for my longevity, When you're the flavor of the month, people get tired of you and they want to see the next flavor of the month. Totally agree, yeah. I think there's sort of a formula there that works because I always did what I felt was relevant and I never really allowed myself to be out there. I pulled back a lot.

I didn't go to parties. I didn't. I just really stayed sort of in the background. I mean, this was really at a time where your profile, I mean, if we were in the Instagram, Twitter age, I mean, you'd be all over the place, right? Like, you're, there's an iconic photograph that everyone listening will know this photo. Anyone, anyone over, let's say, 40 will know this photo. It's a Farah Fawcett in a red swimsuit.

It's just an iconic photo. That's your swimsuit. You design that. which I believe today is in the Smithsonian's permanent collection. Right, it is. And you all of a sudden, I think kind of overnight, become known as a swimsuit designer. So I asked Farah. Farah was a regular in the store and a just spectacular human being.

And so she was in at once, and I saw her in the store, and I said, I have to ask you, why did you choose that swimsuit? Because I hated it. I hated that swimsuit so much. I did six of them. And I would do six to test to see how people reacted to see whether or not I would continue doing it. And I would do these tests. And I remember thinking, I don't know. I just am not sure about the suit. And don't you know, she purchased it. And I didn't realize I didn't know that she did. And then she said, well, I had it in my bag. And I was with my friend, this photographer. And we talked about doing photos for a poster,

but this was just another sort of, we're going to take pictures. And she said, so I had it with me. So I put it on. And that's why. And I said, oh, my God, I really, I couldn't believe out of all the suits she had for me that she chose that. But clearly the suit is just the subtext to her beautiful smile, her just the aura she puts out. And I think the reason men love it is because she's not threatening at all.

She's just very sweet. I'm curious. I mean, this is at times, this is like the late 70s, where this is pre, obviously, long before internet commerce. And so you are in New York, which is a... a super hugely influential place. But people couldn't get your stuff outside of New York, right? Not yet, no. No. At that time, you had to go to Madison Avenue. The Kamali shop on Madison Avenue to buy your stuff. And you couldn't get it in L.A. at like Fred Siegel or, you know, some of those fans. Okay. And I mean, this is also a time where you

American designers are starting to really, right? I mean, it's the beginning of a complete revolution. You have Donna Karen and you're going to have Ralph Lauren and you're going to have Calvin Klein and then Vera Wang and on and I'm leaving out lots of them. But right, this is kind of the beginning of that move because most designers were in Europe. That's correct. And the 70s started to be especially in New York an incredibly expressive time. There was such an energy and expression. It sort of was what London was in the 60s. This was now the next sort of energy ball.

That was intensely exciting. By the way, did you have a sense that you guys were making money? I mean, did it seem like, I mean, you saw people coming into the shop and were you just not even paying attention to that? I was paying attention because it takes money to buy fabric. It takes money to sort of create the next thing you're going to sell. And that's probably where the differences between Eddie and myself came about because he was spending a lot of money from the company. He was actually spending money from the business account of the company on his own, like, social life. Yes. And he was going out every night. And then he started, you know, word would get back to me that he was with girls. And then he started dating the sales girl in the store that I had fired because she wasn't doing her job. So he hired her back. So it started, we started to have that kind of a not so great relationship. And we'd grown apart. And to be quite.

honest. I wasn't mortified that he was seeing other women. In fact, I was like, oh, well, you know, that's the way it goes. But what was happening was people were starting to realize that there was somebody else in the Kamali thing and that that there was somebody who was designing the clothes. And at that time, it was very hard for men to reconcile a woman with power. And I wasn't, I was very, I mean, I hardly spoke. I was very quiet. But my power wasn't coming from me. It was coming from people's idea of me.

And that was bothering him too. And I think part of the reason he was dating the sales girl was because he had some sort of issue with what was happening with me. And so how did you guys resolve it? Well, clearly, this was not going to keep going in a good direction. And I think the turning point for me, you know, there's always that one thing that happens that's so horrific that you thank your lucky stars that had happened because you make the right move. And so I remember being in the sample room one day and the same sales girl that he hired back came in to tell me that she decided she was going to be the new designer

and that she wanted me to make some of her designs and she described them to me. So I was just looking at her thinking, this girl has definitely lost her mind, but I just let her keep talking. And then she leaves, and I went to my cutting table. I didn't even say anything. I went to my cutting table,

and the ceiling over my cutting table just fell. And I said to myself, time to leave. And so I just left. I literally, I just left. You mean, you just walked away from the business? Yes. I had $98 to my name. At that point, Eddie and I had already separated our living situation.

I had got an apartment. I had a mattress. I didn't have furniture. I had my clothes. And that was it. And it was definitely one of those moments in your life that you think, oh my God, what am I going to do? When we come back in just a moment,

how Norma figured out how to restart and rebuild her business and how she also learned to reinvent it with new designs, new technology, and a rollout at Walmart. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Build. this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. So it's the mid-1970s and Norma Kamali has gotten a divorce from her husband, Eddie, and walked away from the clothing design store that they started together. And this is not one of those stories where they agreed to split up the business in equal parts. I had the $98 that I had

on me. That was it. And I had been asking around, to see if I wanted to leave, what would be the right thing to do? How do you handle it? And I had advice that you can't take anything if you leave. It's not, you know, that's not how you do it. If you leave the business. Yeah. So if I wanted to leave and he didn't want me to leave, I mean, he literally contacted me to say, you owe me a swimwear collection before you go. And I was like, Okay. And knowing full well that I wouldn't have money and that I would have to come back. So I think he really expected that I would. Wow. So you, I mean, this was a business that you started. I mean, that store, Kamali, presumably had to shut down. Well, he kept it going for a while. Obviously, it didn't stay for that long, I think maybe a year or two.

and I really, I was so frightened and I'd never really told, I never talked to anybody about anything private or personal. And so I felt really kind of alone. And a big lesson I learned was that being private and quiet is not going to get you anywhere. And I had had planned to meet this writer from the L.A. Times, which was one of a rare situation that I would ever meet an editor. And she really persisted and wanted to meet me. And my eyes were swollen shut from crying, and I was so embarrassed. But I thought, I know where I'm supposed to meet her, but I don't have her numbers.

So I went to meet her. And she said, what happened to you? And for the first time in my life, I shared anything private. You told her that your marriage was resolved and that your business is. And that I left the business. And she said, well, then what do you need? And I was like, oh, my God, I need everything. And she said, well, I'm going to get you some sewing machines.

And so I realized that if you talk to people and tell them what you need, something can happen. But if you keep it to yourself, nothing is going to happen. She connected you to people who had sewing machines? I mean, this reporter for the... Yeah, she, her husband knew somebody in the industry. And then I decided to reach out to people

and ask for help and ask if I could borrow money. And that was my first, like, okay, I better figure out how to do this. So, I mean, what you did have, though, was your reputation. And obviously, your track record of designing already kind of iconic designs, but no money. This is a time where I imagine, especially for a woman entrepreneur to go and, like, raise money. I mean, was that even a possibility? Could you have gone out and, like, I don't know, pitched people and gotten investors on board?

No. But don't forget, women didn't have businesses that I didn't know a woman who had her own business, never mind in the fashion industry. I knew women who were partners who had shops and things like that. But to have your own company and run it and design for it, that was sort of like, I couldn't think about it. I just had to do it. And so friends invested their money in me and, you know, family, friends, anybody, anything that I could muster, I did.

And I was so committed to paying everybody as soon as I could because what they did for me is they gave me a freedom that I so desperately wanted. All right. So it's 1978. and you're completely starting again. And you call your new business, OMO, on my own. I love that. And did you kind of recreate this idea? Was it a brick and mortar store with a space to design clothes in the back as well?

Yeah, I had to come up with something. So I came up with OMO Norma Kamali. And I did find a space on 56. Street and there was a space that I used as a sample room. And so that was really the turning point in my career. All right. So you've got OMO. You're starting from scratch and kind of. And this is a time, I think you started to experiment with like material that was used in like sweatpants, like sweat clothing. Yes.

So for my entire career, I would put in styles in the store. And then the people from Bloomingdale's would come in. And I would see full page ads with my styles, but not with my name on it, but with Bloomingdale's. Basically, they were knocking, they were knocking your style off. Right. And I was crying, trying to pay the rents. Let's just plain and simple. You would design stuff, sell it in your boutique, and then you would see it at Bloomingdale's.

Right. Or other places. And so finally, I was doing a swimwear collection. And as I was doing the collection, I thought, I think I'm going to get sweatshirt fabric because I love to swim. And when I would swim, my brother had these sweatshirts from the Army Navy store, and I would put them on when I got out of the water. And I bought gray sweatshirt fabric and I designed some cover-up pieces for swimwear. And then I thought, this is really beautiful. I did a dress and then I did a jumpsuit

and then I did a coat and then I did a suit. And I had 36 pieces all in gray sweatshirt. And I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, you know what? Somebody's going to make a lot of money on this. and this time it better be me because I can't have any more sleepless nights. We got to pay the rent. And so I didn't know what to do. So I contacted Women's Word Daily who were very supportive of me, especially going out on my own. And they came to see it and I said, how do I protect this?

And they said, do not show it to anybody. we are going to introduce you to someone who will be a great partner for you to do a license with. So they introduced me to Sydney Kimmel, who had Jones Apparel at the time, which was a hugely successful line for women going into the workplace. And we signed a deal in two weeks. We were in business. then the brand, the name became known globally. It really just took off in a huge way. I'm looking at a photo of a Norma Kamali sweat jumpsuit from 1982, and I see my mom in that.

It's not my mom. I see my mom in that picture. That did really well. I mean, I think by 1981, you were doing $11 million in sales. Easily, yes. And it became global. I had licenses in Japan, in Europe, in the U.S. I had 30 licenses for everything covering accessories, the whole deal.

And that's when I really learned how to negotiate, how to manage a bigger kind of company. But there comes a point. when you get too much attention that you get scared and you think this is going to be the end of me because it's going to be too much. And so after six years of doing the collection with Jones Apparel, I didn't renew the contract. Now, let me tell you, there was a lot of money on the table. I'm sure. But I said, I don't need a lot of money. I don't need a a lot of money. I just need my independence and how can I maintain that? What can I do to maintain that but still keep my brand in a good place? Now, walking away, as we all know, is a very important

thing to do at the very right time and it is the hardest thing to do. But those were the the times that really saved me from really bad situations. But you thought that, I mean, I guess I'm not entirely clear about why you would. I mean, if it was successful and it was doing well and there was money to be made, what was it? Well, as it got bigger and bigger, the quality control diminished. And that's not good for me, right? That's not good for my reputation.

and then the distribution was in control. I remember Sacks was complaining because I did these big yellow slickers, right? They were really big with buffalo check flannel buffalo check inside. These are rain, like rainclots. Rain slickers, big, fun ones. And they did a big ad promotion, everything, and they still hadn't gotten their shipment. And I was on my way home. and I passed a store on 14th Street, like a schlucky junk store,

with a rolling rack outside of the yellow slickers, of my yellow slickers. And I said, what is happening with the distribution? Why are there no controls? And I remember I was told, you're only a pimple on an elephant's ass, and that's how big their company was. And I thought, oh, okay, I think. This is the time to hang it up. And, of course, another thing that's really hard to keep control over is the designs themselves, right?

I mean, because, I mean, let's just be clear. Like, it's very hard to patent designs. Now you can't. Right? You can't. So which is why like fast fashion began in the 90s and, right? Sort of cheap knockoffs that you would find at, you know, some of these stores. Because you can't, right?

People can really just kind of copy your style. It's sort of, to be honest, it's sort of a way of life in the fashion industry. There's a whole, most of the industry copies. And, you know, for me, I've always thought, I'm not going to get upset about it. I have another idea, so I don't have to worry that they took that idea. But when it comes to your survival in the business, that's when you start to get anxious about it. Now, you know, people still copy me. In fact, there's this young designer who in 2016 she opened, did a website. And she based her website on a dress I designed in 1973 that I still sell called The All In One. And the dress can be worn in a hundred different ways. It's easy care. And I have a whole video showing.

the way you wear it and her whole website is this dress, the video she did of all the ways you can wear it, and that she is the creator of the dress. And she even came to my store to see what was going on, the whole thing. So I hear about this. And she is a very small business. And my CFO says, we have to, you know, we have to put a stop to this. She can't make these claims. So he talks to the lawyer, the whole thing. I said, this is what I want to do. I don't want to have negative conversations about somebody knocking me off. The only thing I care about is that she makes the dress in a good way. The way she's making it is so ugly and poorly made that what I want to do is drop all of the charges against her, and I'm going to send her a pattern of the dress with

instructions on how to make it. And I said, and you know what, now she's not taking advantage of me. I gave her a gift, and that's it. And so that's my attitude at this point about knocking off. I mean, it's just so pervasive, though. Yeah. Normal, while you were, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in the 80s, you were really focusing on comfort clothing. Like, I mean, Now we all talk about it because everybody's been doing Zoom calls. And here I am. I'm wearing pajama pants right now and house slippers. But normally together I'd be wearing a colored shirt and, you know, I'd be meeting Norma Kamali.

I would dress really well. But it seems like you were doing like comfort clothing, you know, washable, machine washable. How would you describe your, like if I were to go to a shop and said, I want to look, I want to dress in Norma Kamali stuff. in like 1985, what would I look like? Well, my philosophy has been the same all these years. So I was believing in clothes that felt good on, knits, clothes that you could wash and not dry, clean, fun clothes, clothes that you could be active in.

I've always, I'm still that same person. I'm wearing sweats as we speak. I love to feel good in clothes. I don't want to feel uncomfortable. I don't even want to think about my clothes. But the most important thing is that it's not precious. You can wear it any time. You don't have to hang it on a special hanger or it's going to get wrinkled.

That to me is so not on the list of what I'm going to do. Yeah, I'm curious because today, like, for example, streetwear, which is such a weird term to me because streetwear means like $600 T-shirts, right? Or like $300 rubber flip flunk. That's streetwear. I'm like, who on the street is wearing a $500 t-shirt? Was your stuff super hot, expensive? Or was it affordable?

Affordable. So to me, value is also really important that you're able to pay the rent and still have something you love. And, you know, the idea of somebody buying like a $5,000 handbag and not having any money to do anything else is like insanity. So for me, beautiful clothes don't have to be expensive. And, I mean, clearly that, it sounds like that became kind of a, or was a mantra of yours. I mean, because you, I mean, I'm moving forward a little bit, but you would go on to partner with Walmart in the early two. 2000s to debut a collection of clothing at Walmart, which, by the way, you can still get through like eBay and people sell them at a premium, like Norma Kamali T-shirts and stuff.

But tell me about that partnership, because, I mean, Norma Kamali, high fashion, you know, there's a certain kind of reputation of branded Walmart obviously is not that. Yeah, I'll tell you. So first of all, when Halston made a decision to do a big box, I think it was Penny. it killed his career. And so, you know, word has always been. You don't want to get involved with those because for your reputation, it's not good.

But I love to meet people and listen to ideas and what they are offering. So if people approach me about something, I probably nine times out of 10 will have the conversation. I always learn something from it. And it sounds like that's what happened in this case, right? I mean, I think at some point, what, like, someone you knew from the industry who'd got a job at Walmart, like, called you up and made some sort of offer? Yes.

And he said, I'm going to ask you something, and I don't want you to say no right away. He said, I'm working at Walmart, and I want you to come and meet me here. and I said, oh, I really don't think so. And he said, I know you would like this meeting. I know you're going to like it just for the experience you have to come. So I said, okay, I trust your judgment on that. So I get on a plane and then you take that little plane to Walmart, to Bentonville. And I go to my first Walmart superstore.

and I am blown away. I have never, I mean, I'm a New York City girl. I don't even... There's no Walmart superstore in New York, yeah. And I don't drive a car, so I'm not, you know, I'm like a New York girl. So I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, holy mackerel. So then I meet some really smart people. We have these great conversations and they want to have a fashion line for Walmart.

And I said, I don't think so. I don't think that's a good idea. I'm just saying. And a little over a year later, I got a call from them. It appears that they did do a fashion line for Walmart, and it didn't work. And somebody that was at that meeting said, we have to talk to Norma, but this time we'll come to see you. So they said, what is in your mind?

What are you thinking about? And I told them that I thought that they should have the core of a wardrobe, like a trench coat, a white shirt, a black trouser, a jacket, all the basics. And so I remember when I was doing a T-shirt, T-shirt designs for them, and I see 650 units. And I said, I don't know, that doesn't seem like it's going to be enough. And they said, well, that's 650,000 units. And I was like, oh, okay. All right, I get it. And so the quality of the clothes was exactly the quality I wanted.

The fabric was the fabric I wanted. And why so? Because when you order 650,000 units, you can. get the quality you want and the fabric you want. That's a tremendous amount of power. My experience at Walmart was extraordinary. I read that when the collection was debuted at Walmart and you were at a Walmart, like people were running up to you with like cash register receipts for you to autograph them. Right, right. It seems to me that that part of what you have tried to do and have done throughout your career has been to constantly, like you're constantly, coming up with different ideas. Like you got into e-commerce super early, like in, in, in, in, 1996. And you got on, you were on eBay, like, really early. And you mean, in the 90s,

you introduced, like, I think, a line of, like, home goods products. Like, were all those things, was it, was it just you following your curiosity? Or were these, like, like, really kind of strategic business decisions that you were making? I actually had a website in like between 95 and 98, why I started to really kind of want to be, because I was so comfortable with computers and because of the airlines, and I understood what you could do with this kind of technology, I just wanted to jump right in, right away.

And of course, it was way early. But I do well when I'm doing a lot of different things because I find each of them inspires the other and keeps things very exciting. Remember, I haven't changed my job in 53 years. I've had the same job. And so when I'm interested and I see something is an opportunity, that can use creativity and technology, I am super excited about it. I, you know, I love VR. I love some of the amazing directions we can go in.

This is a very exciting time, inventive time. This is going to be bigger than the 60s were in the revolution part of it. When, I mean, there's so much, there's so much in your life and career that we can, that we just can't talk about because it's been, you've had this incredible career. And I know you've got a book, kind of talking a little bit about your life and also about your experience. And I gather the message of your book is like, hey, actually your life gets better as you get older. Yeah. The book is called I Am Invincible, and what I do is I share my life experiences through the decades. And so the goal of the book is to help women get through each of these decades with some tools and information. And aging with power is sort of the headline of the book in that you can get better with age. I love the fact that I'm so much smarter now than I ever was and that I do things now to serve my purpose in this lifetime, which is a very freeing experience.

We all have a different schedule. We all have a different timeline. And one should never judge theirs by others. And I think the universe just is checking things out for us and helping make the right decisions like meeting your soulmate at 65. I am very fortunate that I did end up finding someone who is my soulmate. I'm happy that it was at this point in my life because honestly, I wasn't ready earlier. It's funny because I talked to my mom about this who's almost your age. She always says to me, this is the best time of my life.

Like, I love being in my 70s. Right. It's, do you feel that way? Yeah. She's absolutely right. You know, anti-wrinkle, anti-aging, all of that just drives me and your mother crazy. Okay? I will speak for her.

So I feel that I'm in the place where I can communicate. and help educate what aging is about. And whether it's a 20-year-old that feels like she's getting old or a 30-year-old, 40-year-old, 50-year-old, the idea of getting old should be part of the passage in a woman's life, not something to fear, but something to cherish because of the knowledge and the experience you gain in each of these days. decades. Yeah. When you think about the history of American fashion, you know, I think a lot of people would say you're a big part of it. You're right there in it. It's like the history of restaurants. And, you know, Alice Waters, who was on the show. Like she's just incredibly important. Part of why so many people eat local and organic food. Do you feel like that? Does that, do you feel like a pioneer in American fashion?

You know, it's really interesting. I look at Norma Kamali almost as this other person, right? I think that Norma Kamali contributes to the fashion industry. I like to think people are comfortable in a casual lifestyle in their clothing because of maybe something I did with sweats. I'm like that little speck that gets things activated and then it becomes something bigger and much bigger than I am. I certainly don't want to have like my name on it to feel better. I just sort of feel, hmm, that's pretty cool. I like that.

I like that that's happening. I like that people are wearing sweats now at home. And everybody's saying they're going to never wear sweats again. Sorry. I don't believe you. I know you're going to wear a sweats again. When you think about it, you had no intention of becoming a fashion designer. You went to the Fashion Institute of Technology because your mom was like, you better get a job.

And that really was your objective. The idea that you would become this known fashion designer was not part of your plan, but you did. And, you know, a successful, well-known designer, how much of your story and your success do you think, happened because you worked really hard and were really strategic and how much do you think has to do with just getting lucky? First of all, yes, you have to work really hard. And the way you work really hard is that you're doing what you love, you love it so much that you don't feel like you're working hard and that you have good relationships because the last thing you want to do, is burn bridges and relationships, you know, the one thing I can tell you is do not burn a bridge

because that bridge is going to come around again. You're going to see all those people again. You cannot believe how everything comes around. But I also think, I hope I don't sound too crazy or woo-woo, but I do think the universe has a big plan for us and you can call it luck, but I think it's even

more than that. I think we do things because that's what we should be doing. That's iconic fashion designer Norma Kamali. And by the way, remember when she was talking about that one-off design she did back in the late 1960s,

that suede skirts that she whip stitched using a hole puncher? Well, a few years back, decades after she created that skirt, Norma was out walking around town. And I see a girl walking towards me in the most amazing skirt. And I kept looking at it thinking, oh my God, it moves so beautifully. I really loved that skirt.

And as she was coming towards me, that was my skirt. And she must have been 19. So clearly that skirt was purchased by someone, either handed down to her mother to her, or sold then given to a vintage store that then sold it to someone. That skirt probably had several lives. And here I was seeing it. And I wanted to stop her, but I thought, no, that's not what you're supposed to do. You're just supposed to look at it.

And I had chills. I was so moved by it. I'll never forget that moment. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, sign up for my newsletter. You can find it at gairoz.com.

This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Rumtina Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Sam Paulson, Devin Schwartz, Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thompson, John Isabella, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.