How I Built This with Guy Raz - Serial Entrepreneur: Mark Cuban

Episode Date: December 5, 2016

Mark Cuban made millions off of tech startups, then billions off of stocks — and later went on to buy and revive the Dallas Mavericks. He has come to define the persona of the serial entrepreneur. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Every business I've started, I would count the months. You know, am I profitable? Do I have enough to pay the bills? I mean, I've been in the situation enough times with startups where the bill collectors were calling on a continuous basis.

You know, and back then you had answering machines, and it was like you didn't want to, you know, hit the button on the answer machine because, hello, Mr. Mark Cuban, I've left 17 messages. From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, how Mark Cuban figured out that something called the Internet was going to transform the economy and how he turned that. bunch into millions and then billions of dollars. So if you know who Mark Cuban is, you've probably seen him on Shark Tank. Who are the sharks? They're self-made millionaire and billionaire investors who are entrepreneurs themselves. And if you don't know the show, basically there's a panel of investors who are the sharks,

and they hear a bunch of pitches from people who are trying to start a business. So do you like the idea, and would you want to see a net increase of 30 to 50% in your company? Again, what was my question to you? And when Mark Cuban is doing the judging, he can sometimes be kind of a jerk. Of course, I like the deal, which is why I offered you a chance to close it. You should just shut up and take the deal. Hallelujah. Instead of keep on selling.

And you kept on trying to sell. Okay, so this is the Mark Cuban that many of us are familiar with, self-made billionaire at age 40, owner of the Dallas Mavericks. But how he got to this point, here's the story. All right, so tell me, tell me who, like, what was Mark Cuban like the day he graduated from college? Like, paint that picture for me. You know, I was a hustler. I was an entrepreneur. I didn't know.

I remember making a list of potential industries I wanted to go into. Do you just wrote them down on a piece of paper? I wrote them down. Wow. You know, cable industry, technology, all these things that I thought would be up-and-coming industries. and I was just going to start applying for jobs until I got one. And my first job out of college was at Mellon Bank in Pittsburgh, which I kind of backed into because they thought I had my MBA.

But I didn't. I had just taken all my MBA classes starting my freshman year at Indiana. Then they were kind of disappointed that I didn't quite have the chops that they expected. So back then, banks were just going through the process of converting from paper systems to digital systems. So my job was to do systems integration or systems conversions. This in the early 80s. Yes. And so that's where I got my introduction to computers and really where I found that I really liked computers. I hadn't really taken it at Indiana. Yeah. And then I quit and went back. Why did you quit? Just because I had no future there. It just wasn't for me. I just was not a good employee. But I tried

to take initiative. I remember thinking myself, I'm going to have an impact and I'm going to try to do things differently to stand out. And I started writing a little newsletter. You know, I'm Why you were there. While I was there, right? It was just like, this is my mindset. I'm going to have an impact. I'm going to do what I think. You were a newsletter for like other employees there at the bank?

Yeah, other employees at the bank and employees of the bank and of the bank we were doing the conversion for. And I had a, it was lots of humor in it. And it was hysterical if I have to say so. And then all of a sudden it got back to my direct boss who basically had just dismissed me once they found out I didn't have an MBA. And he just tore me a new one. Yeah.

He just ripped me and just like, and I'm like, okay. I don't belong here. Because he thought you were like this annoying upstar kid who was just kind of going over his head? Yeah, basically. He was like, who the hell do you think you are? You know, and only he didn't use that nice of language. And oh, yeah, he just crushed me. So how did you end up in Dallas?

I mean, you were a kid from Pittsburgh. You went to school in Indiana. How did Dallas happen? I had a bunch of buddies from IU who went down there and they said the weather's amazing, the girls are hot and the economy is getting better. Because you got to remember when I graduated from Indiana, I mean, it was not a good time. You know, there was a recession and this was pre-PC.

And a bunch of my buddies had went down to Dallas and said, you got to come check this out. So what did you think you were going to do down there? I had no idea. I had no idea. I figured worst case, I'd have fun. You know, I started a bar in my senior year in college, so I knew how to bartend. I understood the bar business. And so I figured worst case, I'd get a job working as a bartender and then see what came along.

And that's exactly what I did. I got a job at a place called Alon's working as a bartender. And in the meantime, I would go through the Help Wanted ads. There was an ad in the local paper that said, come to this agency and we'll help you place. And I'm like, look, I'm not paying a fee. And they're like, no, the employer pays. Don't worry. So I got sent to a company called Your Business Software, and they started quizzing me and actually smart questions.

But it was, you know, what do you know about PCs? And this was 1982 at the time. point. And PCs were not a thing. No, people did not have their own computers. No, no, no, nobody did, right? It was brand new. And I was like, I don't know a lot, but what I do know is how to open up a manual and read and teach myself and gave them the examples of what I taught myself at Melam Bank. Yeah. And so I got a job for 18 grand a year plus commissions at your business software. And so what did you have to do for the company? Like, what was your actual job? My job was, it was a retail store. And my job was to get there.

and open the store by 930, have all the PCs dusted, the windows cleaned, set up the software, and then learn all the software that we were selling so that when people came in, I could answer their questions. So you would just tinker and read the manual, and that's how you figured that. That's how I taught myself everything. Yeah, because I couldn't afford. I actually tried to buy a TRS 80 from Radio Shack, and I didn't get approved for credit. I'd already had my Sears credit card in my Discover card taken and cut up. And so since I couldn't afford to buy my own PC, I would stay there late or I would take one of them home and just crunch the hours and teach myself. Were you a good salesman? I mean, did you like...

Oh, are you kidding me? I was the best. I crushed it. How are you the best? You know, one of my strengths has always been being able to put myself in the shoes of any type of business. You got a shoe store. Okay, I understand how that works. You got a bank.

I understand how that works. You've got an oil refinery. I'll figure out how that works. And so if I'm able to figure out how the business works and what makes it profitable, then I'm able to figure out how to apply the software to solve a problem. And the thing about the industry back then was it was brand new to everybody. And that's what I would tell people. It was so new to everybody that if I put in the time to learn it, I could stay ahead of everybody. And new stuff was coming out every day.

Not as much as you see today with apps and everything, but new stuff was coming out every day. And it wasn't that hard if I put in the time to keep up with it. So was that your plan like to just keep working for this company or whatever company came along? No, my plan was I knew I was not going to be an employee long term. You knew you were going to do your own thing. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. How did you know that?

Just who I am, you know, who I was my entire life. I mean, I read that you, like you wanted to be rich from an early age. Yeah, I really did. But lots of kids want to be rich. There's a difference in wanting to be rich than becoming rich. So what did you do as a kid? I just tried stuff, you know, from packaging baseball cards when I was nine or 10 years old and taking them down to the park and reselling them and marking them up, you know, buying and selling stamps,

selling garbage bags door to door, you know, getting together a crew of kids and selling candies door to door. I mean, I remember thinking when I was 11 years old, literally looking out the window in our house thinking, you know, if I hustled, I could move out of this house and take care of myself and pay my own bills. Whoa. 11. Once I realized I could sell and once I learned that selling was about helping people, then it almost became easy. And then it was just a question of effort. So how did you start your first company?

And how old were you at the time? First, I got fired from your business software because I went and I sold a deal that was going to make me a $1,500 commission. And the customer wanted me to, you know, come pick up the check in the morning so that they could get started as quickly as possible. And so I said, yes. And then I told my boss, look, you know, this guy wants Kevin, wasn't it? Kevin wants me to come pick up the check or now because they want to get started. He's like, no, you've got to open up the store. I'm like, I've got Barbara doing that.

He goes, no, you've got to open the store. And so I made the executive decision to go pick up the check thinking when I handed him the check, all would be okay. He fired me. So what did you do? You know, I took my commission. Because I was fired, I went and took some other customers I was working with and started a company called MicroSolutions. So describe what microsolutions actually, what did it actually do? We're a systems integrator.

So what does that mean? What that means is we would take software and we would modify it to your particular business need, install it and stay with it until it worked. So you were just doing this on your own? It was just you? I had a partner that helped do some software development, Martin Woodall, and he basically did our accounting. But more importantly, he was organized. He was anal as they come. His organizational skills is really what it really helped us because I didn't have to worry about the accounting getting done, checks getting written, all that kind of stuff.

How did you get people to hire you? How did you do? Would you go door to door? Would you cold call? I would network. One success led to another. And so I went to a company called Architectural Lighting, who I'd been talking. talking to. And I said, look, your software cost you $500.

I don't have the money to buy it from the wholesaler. If you guys would advance me the money, I won't charge you anything to install it. And I promise you that I'll make it work. And if for some reason it doesn't, then I will work for you or figure out a way to give you the money back. And they did. And it worked. And then I went to the next one and the next one and the next one and the next one. And you got to realize that, you know, my personality is such that I would start learning software, working on an application that I was writing, and I'd start working on it, and I'd look up, and it'd be 36 hours later. You were just a workaholic.

Not even a workaholic. It's just when I didn't look at it and say, okay, I'm going to try to work 24, 36 hours or whatever. I looked at it as saying, okay, this is fascinating. This is intellectually challenging. I want to solve this problem, and if I don't do it, I'm not going to get paid, and I'm going to lose all this time. So solve the problem, and that's what I would do.

And, you know, the thing about programming. you know, you concentrate so, so, so, so hard that time flies. So as the company grew and became more successful, when did you think, okay, this is it? I've made it. I remember being 26 and being at a bar with my buddy, lean them back and going, I have $100,000 in the bank. Never in my wildest dreams that I think I would have $100,000. thousand dollars in the bank. But then it got, you know, business kept on growing and things kept getting better. And then I remember having $800,000 in the bank, and this was the 80s, and getting

an offer to sell the company. So somebody wanted to buy microsolutions? Yes. Who was it? If you remember a company CompuServe by chance? Yeah, of course. And they were part of H&R block. And so we sold it to CompuServe and named it the CompuServe Systems Integration Group. Sold it for $6 million. Gave a chunk of it to my employees. ended up with $2 million, and Martin ended up with $2 million, and boom. So you sell this company for $6 million. You walk away with $2 million, and then you've got to pay some taxes, of course.

So you're like in your early 30s at that point? No, it just turned 30. And I remember finding a stockbroker, Raleigh Ralls, and telling him, I want to invest like a 60-year-old man. He goes, why? And what I told him was, I'd read this book, How to Retire at the Age of 35. That was like a book I kept on my desk. that was my mission. You know, and in this book,

How to Retire at the Age of 35, the whole theme was, if you live like a student, you know, you know, and save a million and a half dollars, as long as you're living like a student, you can live a long time just like this

and really enjoy your life. And that's what I, that was my mission. But what happened along the way was, Raleigh was at Goldman Sachs. And because I knew the technology business and local networking business, and I started getting questions

from all their, analysts. Like what kind of questions? You know, you just installed this synoptics router. Tell me about it. What do you think about it? What works? And I knew the intricate details of all these, all this hardware and software. And so, you know, I'm like, wait a minute. These guys are using my information to make decisions on the quality of these companies and stocks. He's like, yeah. I'm like, well, maybe I should start doing that too. And so I started buying these stocks and selling stocks just based off of my knowledge of the companies and knowledge of the their products, and I was killing it. I mean, literally, you know, over the next four years, I made 20-some million dollars. Just by buying and selling sex, were that $2 million? Yes. So, like, I'm assuming at this point you have nothing to worry about. Yeah, I just had, I had to worry about not screwing it up. Wait, you were still worried about screwing up at that point? Trust me, I had a healthy dose of fear. You know, every business I've started, I would count the months, you know, am I profitable, you know, do I have enough to pay the bills?

I mean, I've been in the situation enough times with startups of my own where the bill collectors were calling on a continuous basis. And back then, you had answering machines. And it was like you didn't want to hit the button on the answer machine because, hello, Mr. Mark Cuban, I've left 17 messages. Coming up in just a minute, how Mark Cuban figured out that audio on the Internet was going to become a huge thing. And how that turned him from a millionaire into a billionaire. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. It's How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz.

So Mark Cuban taught himself computer programming. He started a software consulting company. He sold it for a few million and was officially retired at the age of 35. But that retirement, it did not last long because in the mid-1990s, Mark Cuban wound up starting another business. So what was it? How did it start? So my college buddy Todd Wagner came to me, and we used to get together all the time.

And remember, I was retired. So I was the guy that's go to lunch, let's have a drink. Yeah. So we would get together and he's like, look, he's got this other guy he knows who's doing this thing with pagers to try to get sports audio transmitted to pagers. And I'm like, no, that's crazy. And I'm like, look, Indiana basketball. Right now, if we try to listen to Indiana basketball, we would have to have somebody in Bloomington, Indiana, hold a phone. A phone, yeah, with...

To the radio. Right. And then we would listen to it on the other side here in Dallas, which was crazy. There's got to be a way this new internet, and I've been playing with the internet. I'm like, there's got to be a way that I can figure out how to, you know, transmit audio and eventually video over the internet so that we can solve that problem. I mean, right now, that just seems totally obvious, right? But at that time, like in the mid-90s, did people think this was a good idea? No, hell no.

People were laughing at me. Get by a damn radio. Yeah. But was it technology even there? No, it wasn't at that point. But I figured I could figure it out. And we were, I was playing with NFS files and all this other stuff. You know, I went and bought, you know, a Packard Bell computer for three grand. I set up an ISDN line at my house and just started playing and playing and playing and trying different things. And there were ways using wave files and stuff that you could transmit audio. That had been done for a long time. But actually streaming it in. over the internet in a more efficient manner that hadn't been done. So I set up a website and we called it audio net and then we went to a local radio station here in Dallas, KLIF. I went to him and said, look, you know how cable TV is just blown up and now you can get any network anywhere you have a TV? I think this internet thing is going to do the same thing for audio and eventually video, that you're

going to be able to stream things digitally all around the world and we're going to really make the world a much smaller place. you can make your signal a much more global business. And here's what we need to do. I'm going to bring an eight-hour VCR, and we're going to record your Norm Hitska's show and all this stuff, all your sports shows. And then I'm going to encode it and put it on audio net.

So did people start listening? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And people started coming, and we started getting emails from all around the world going, oh, my God, you just cured my homesickness. I'm living in Korea. You know, I'm living in Oklahoma or California and I miss Dallas. Or I'm stuck in my office and now I can finally get A, B, and C.

And we're like, damn, we got something. And, you know, we just started taking off from there. So this is kind of a weird question, but just to remind people, like, you were a multi-millionaire at this point. Like, you are sitting, like, burning the midnight oil, like sitting in front of a glowing screen, night after night after night. Why? Why were you doing that? That's who I am because I wanted to win. What does that mean you wanted to win? What do you mean when you say? Against what? Against who? Against you? Well, I knew I knew streaming was the future. There was no doubt in my mind. And that's who I was. I mean, I liked the idea of, you know, people used to say I could see around corners, what's next, what's next, what's next. And there was no doubt in my mind that streaming was next. And I remember is telling our employees, we're either going to be a multi-billion-dollar. company or we're just going to be friends and what's going to be a big flame out. But

streaming is going to be enormous and we have a chance to own it. How were you making a profit? We wanted this. I failed on my monthly profitability goals. Yeah, because you weren't selling anything, right? No, we weren't at that point, no. But it was really obvious to me that this is going to be huge, enormous. If only just to reach offices because there was no other way to get media at your desktop at work. You know, you couldn't have a TV. there and, you know, most people couldn't have radios there. And so we were the media device and people were putting media, you know, PCs on every desktop. And, you know, you had the broadband bandwidth of corporations. And so, you know, it was a perfect storm for us. We just had to have the

content. And so we just kept on growing and growing and growing. And so I went out and raised some money from friends. And it was like, what are we going to value this company at? We're like, well, the last company I sold after seven years for six million. Let's just cut that in half, three million. That'll be our valuation. And so we sold, you know, 1% chunks for $30,000 to our friends. When we sold the company, those $30,000 chunks were worth $22 million. You sold the company to Yahoo for how much?

$5.7 billion in stock. Gotcha. Okay. So what percentage of the company did you own at that point when you sold it? 33%. In 1999. Yes. It actually closed in 2000. Okay, you were a billionaire at this point, and you're thinking, okay, now I'm going to retire?

Yeah, kind of, pretty much. And how did you start to think about buying the Dallas Mavericks? How did that come about? I didn't. How that came about was it was October or early November of 1999, and I'd been a Dallas Maverick season ticket holder for a few years. and I remember going to the game to start of the 99-2000 season, and it wasn't a sellout. And I was excited, but nobody else was. And I remember looking around thinking, God, I can do a better job than this.

And I was with my girlfriend, now my wife, and I remember telling her, you know, I can do a better job. And then, you know, ding, ding, ding, the light bulb went off. I'm like, wait, I can put my money where my mouth is. And so that's exactly what I did. I talked to my sales rep who put me, connecting with the guy named Mark McGuire, former player working for Rossboro Jr., the owner, connected with Ross, didn't even negotiate.

I just said, you know what, whatever. And I paid them 285, which is probably $100 million too much. But yeah, so it wasn't like it was preordained or it was planned. That was my all-time goal. It was, I've always been a basketball junkie. I've always loved the game. I play pickup. I still play pickup.

It's in my blood. And, you know, it just seemed like why not? So, so wait, you say you paid $100 million too much for the team? Yeah. When I bought the Mavs, everybody was like, are you an idiot? It was the highest price ever paid for a sports team, $285 million, and everybody thought I was a moron. I mean, it seems so crazy now because NBA teams are worth, like, you know, more than a billion dollars. I want to ask you about the NBA because you get in a lot of trouble.

Like, you have been fined a lot of money for, like, yelling at the ref. So do you cause trouble for fun, or do you just do it because you like to fight? It just depends on the circumstances. If I'm playing pickup or if I'm playing in a league, I'm never arguing over calls or whatever and never have. You know, if I'm in a league and there's a bad call, okay, that's the way it goes. You know, in the NBA, it's a lot different, particularly when I first got there. When I first got to the NBA, refs really worked at managing the game rather than calling the game by the rulebook. And I remember early on reading something from the director of officiating back then who said,

we don't call the game the same in the last minute as we do in the first minute, which just infuriated me to no end. And then from there, it was just like, okay, I'm on a mission to make this fair. And it set me off with a lot of those guys and probably cost me a championship in 2006. But, you know, it's come a long way since. And I think, you know, I'm better for it, and the NBA is better for it since. Because you, sometimes you yell at refs and stuff. I mean, do you, that's my, but you know what, and to be honest, you, you know what, and to be honest, you, You know, if you just see me outside a game, I'm as mellow as you can be. So you're not like an angry guy.

No. You don't have many reasons to be angry. No, I have no reasons to be angry. But during the game, that's where I let out my stress. It's like when I used to play rugby, like during a rugby game, I'm going to try to beat the hell out of you and then we'll drink afterwards. But that was where I let out my stress. And during the Mavs game, you'll see me yell and scream. And, you know, that's my stress reduction.

Is that the same thing on a shark tank? Because you can actually be kind of mean to contestants. Yeah. Right? Why? Is that? Well, the depends what I'm talking to. If there's an entrepreneur who's got their life tied up in something, I'm not going to be mean, right? I'm going to be supportive and I'll come up with suggestions, even if I'm not investing. But if you're trying to scam me, if you're trying to pull a quickie or your product's a scam, I'm going to nail you, you know, because I know that people see these products and they'll go to buy them. You know, we had one on the end of the season where it was called Pavlock, I think, where they had a Fitbit looking device that shocked you. And the whole idea was aversion therapy so that if you don't want to smoke, you shock yourself when you're getting ready to smoke or shock yourself when you're getting ready to eat, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to avert and it would train your brain. And when they tried to show the science, they gave all this science for aversion therapy in general, but nothing specific to their product. And I called them out on it. You know, it was like, okay, why don't you just use a rubber band, you know, and snap yourself when you are going to

smoke. And so those situations, I'm going to crush you. If your heart's into it and your heart's in the right place and your efforts there, I'm going to support you. You've invested like almost $20 million, I guess, in short tank companies. Have you made money yet off of any of those? Have I gotten $20 million back? No. Have I gotten, you know, if I was going to value it, would I have more than $20 million of value? Absolutely. So out of the 70 give or take companies that I've invested in, I'd say two are out of business, two are out of business and just aren't smart enough to know it. And then the next, you know, the top 12 that are making 500,000 or more in profit per year and have paid me back a lot of money or reinvesting a lot of that money into growth. And then there's others in the middle that are just growing and running their businesses the way they should.

And, you know, we'll see if they click and take off or not. You know, Mark, it's kind of amazing because unlike other people who've been on the show, it doesn't seem like becoming a billionaire was weird to you. Like, I mean, like all of a sudden you're, you know. Oh, no, it was weird. Trust me. Was it? How was it weird?

It is so much money to this day. It weirds me out. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I knew I'd be wealthy. You knew that. You just knew it. Yeah. Look, I mean, from the time I was 25 on, I was making money and saving money and increasing.

my net worth, you know, on a monthly basis. But to this day, I remember, I mean, yesterday, I remember being in my backyard and my kids are there and just thinking, you know, I never would have imagined. Never in a million years would I have imagined that I'd be in this position, you know, and just trying to appreciate it. It is crazy. If you woke up tomorrow and found out that everything was gone, all your money, your wealth, your house, like it was gone. You had to start over. What what would you do? I'd get a job as a bartender at night and a sales job during the day and start working. And probably make some of it back, do you think? Yeah. I mean, could I be a billionaire? To be a billionaire, you got to get lucky, right? I started my company, you know, at a time when the stock market

was going nuts. And that was my luck. And I was smart enough to do it, smart enough to run it, smart enough to execute on it, smart enough to hedge it, but no question there was luck involved. And so could I become a multi-millionaire again? I have no doubt because I would work hard enough. And look, and I don't mean that to sound disrespectful. There's a lot of people who work really hard. But in sales, knowing what my sales skills are and the products that I'm able to sell, I think I could find a job selling a product that had enough commissions or rewards for me, and then leverage that up to start a company somewhere somehow and then, you know, build some wealth. Now, maybe not the same, but enough to pay the bills.

Mark Cuban is the owner of the Dallas Mavericks. By the way, for many years, he really wanted to learn how to dunk a basketball like Michael Jordan. And he tried, and he trained, and he tried and he trained. And at the age of 37, after years of training, he finally did. He finally dunked the ball. Hey, thanks for listening to the show this week. If you want to find out more or listen to previous episodes, you can go to how I Built This.npr.org. And if you have a chance, please subscribe to our show through iTunes and let other people know about it.

You can also write us directly at hibt at npr.org or tweet us. That's at How I Built This. Our show is produced this week by Ramtin Arablewe. You also composed the music. Thanks also to Neva Grant, Sanaz Meshkampur, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, thanks for sticking around to the very end of the show because this is the part of the show where we've been hearing from you guys about the companies and ideas that you're building. Thousands of you, literally thousands of you have written in.

And if you haven't, please do tell us your story. You can go to build.npr.org. That's build with AD where you can follow the instructions. It'll tell you exactly what you need to do. Okay, that's out of the way. Here's this week's story. So my name is Marnie Peters, and I live in Gastonia, North Carolina. Which is about 20 miles outside of Charlotte, where Marnie works as a massage therapist.

Anyway, back in 2009, Marnie had to fly from North Carolina to Maryland, and she was with her two little kids. And one of the kids, it was her baby son, was swaddled to her chest. And her other kid, her 18-month-old daughter, was strapped into the seat beside her, and she was demanding to play with her toys. And each toy I gave her, she'd drop on the ground. And because I had my son wrapped around me, I couldn't bend down and get them. And so during the flight, the toys kept slipping off the tray table and rolling down the aisle of crayons and stuffed animals and figurines all over the plane. And so as I was sitting there, closing my eyes going, okay, what would help me in this situation?

I started to make this product in my head. And what came to mind, at least at the beginning, was an inflatable lap tray for kids. But... The more that we traveled, the more I realized that they need a place to put their things. That they need a pillow, that they have to be able to carry it themselves. A bag, a pillow, a tray table, all in one. So Marnie started to sketch out some ideas. She went to friends and family.

She raised about $20,000. And then she went looking for a manufacturer. And there was really only one company that was willing to work with me as a small inventor. And they were marvelous. For 18 months, we went back and forth with samples and prototypes and finally came to an agreement this past spring and was able to actually get the first shipment at the end of August. And Marnie's invention, she calls it Pet Pack. That's P-E-T-P-A-K. It is a stuffed animal that you unzip the belly and it's a lap tray and you can unzip the back of its neck and it has a little pack that you can put your books and your trinkets and toys. And then you can turn it over and it becomes a little pillow.

It's kind of like a stuffed animal transformer. And right now there are four designs. There's an elephant, a panda, a lion, and a pig. And so far, Marnie says she sold about 50 of them, mainly on Amazon. Everyone really wants to see me succeed. And because I've surrounded myself with these pretty amazing people, my friends, my family, it keeps me going even when you have those entrepreneurial slumps where you just go, okay, I don't know if I can do this anymore. And every time I feel like that, I have somebody behind me going, yes, you can. You've made it this far.

You can keep going. Nowadays, whenever Marney travels with their kids on a plane, all their stuff stays together in one place on that tray. If you want to check out pet packs, see what it looks like, Marnie is currently. selling them on Amazon, you can find them by going there, typing in P-E-T-P-A-K in the search box. And if you want to tell us about the company or idea your building, go to build.npr. That's build with a d.npr.npr.org. And thanks. As the end of the year approaches, a lot of you have been asking about the best way to support how I built this. So first of all, thank you for asking. And it is pretty easy to do. You go to stations.

npr.org, you find your local station and you make a year-end contribution, or even better, you become a regular monthly donor. And when you do, please tell them that how I built this sent you. So find your local station at stations.npr.org. It takes like two minutes. It's totally tax deductible. And please do tell them how I built this sent you. Again, that's stations.npr.org. And thanks.