How I Built This with Guy Raz - Simon Cowell: Music Mogul

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Long before he became famous as the sharp-tongued TV personality who launched the careers of pop stars, Simon Cowell was a rebellious teenager who dropped out of school and started his career in the mailroom at EMI. After a failed business left him nearly bankrupt, he found success by zigging where others zagged—initially by selling hit records based on TV shows like Power Rangers and WrestleMania. Eventually Simon got behind the TV camera himself, where his brutally honest feedback on shows like American Idol and The X Factor made him a household name. Today, through his company Syco Entertainment, Simon continues to discover new talent. His latest challenge: an upcoming Netflix show where he’ll try to build a boy band from scratch.This episode was produced by Josh Lash, and edited by Neva Grant, with research by Iman Maani. Our audio engineers were Patrick Murray and Jimmy Keeley.You can follow HIBT on X and Instagram, and email us at [e-mail]. Sign up for Guy's newsletter at guyraz.com or Substack.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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if you can't sing. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Simon Cowell used sharp business skills and blunt opinions to become one of the best news. known music moguls in the world. Back in 2010, a 16-year-old kid walked onto the stage of the talent TV show X Factor. He was charming, polite, and slightly nervous. He told the judges about his part-time job at a bakery, and then, with no music to back him, he launched into a pretty shaky, acapella version of Stevie Wonders, Isn't She

Lovely? After he finished, one of the judges paused, looked straight to. at him and said, with a little vocal coaching, this kid could actually be pretty good. That teenager was Harry Stiles. And the judge who saw something special in him was Simon Cowell. Simon Cowell is one of the most recognizable personalities in global entertainment. He's the guy who helped bring us shows like American Idol, The X Factor, and America's Got Talent. He's helped launch the careers of artists like Kelly Clarkson, Jennifer Hudson, Carrie Under, Underwood and Adam Lambert, to name just a few.

But what's maybe more surprising is that Simon never studied music. He doesn't play an instrument. He can't sing. But what he does have is instinct, a deep understanding of what makes a hit. And more importantly, what makes a star. Now, long before Idol or One Direction, Simon was working behind the scenes, scouting talent, cutting compilation records, and even licensing music tied to shows like Power Rangers in WrestleMania.

He was able to recognize the connection between pop culture and pop music. And he built not just a company called Psycho Entertainment, but an entire persona, the brutally honest judge who says what everyone else seems to be thinking and sometimes what no one wants to hear. And if you think he's being rude, well, take a listen to this interview to get his perspective on why he says the things he says. Anyway, as a child, Simon grew up in a well-to-do family in the London suburb of Ells Tree,

where he was exposed to the film and TV studios that were based there. Simon's dad worked in the real estate business and his mom had once been a ballet dancer. Yeah, she was very glam. If I had to describe it to anyone, it would be Elizabeth Taylor, the hair, the makeup, the dresses. She would always, I remember this, her telling me this, that she would always kind of get herself, I suppose, doled up

when my dad came back from work. And I was like, why? She just said, I just like it. You know, she was kind of like very classic in that way. And was she, I mean, I've seen her described as a quote unquote socialite, which is a bit of a weird word because it conjures up, you know, images of superficiality and things like that. But was she, I mean, did she entertain at the house? Was she sort of known as somebody who, you know, you always want to go to, you know, you always want to go to her parties?

Like, oh, yeah, Julie's having a party. Let's go to her house. Everyone, yeah, used to entertain. There was, you know, if it wasn't our house, it would be the neighbor's house. Pretty much every weekend, there would be a lot. large party. And obviously in the summer, when the weather was good, it would be outdoors. And, you know, I always remember my next door neighbor was a guy called Jerry Blatner. And he ran, I think it was MGM Studios in the UK. So we all looked, and he was a little guy, but we all kind

of looked up to him as, oh God, he's the producer, you know, he's the guy. Because when we used to look over into the garden during the parties, all we ever saw were film stars. And I always thought that must be the best job in the world, being him. How were you as a, I mean, from everything I've read, including in your biography, you really loved your parents. You had a really good relationship with him, but you were not, I mean, you weren't a good student, for example. You talk about this, right? No. Was there, did that create conflict at all between you and your parents?

Well, you know, I think if I, let's say Eric, my son had turned out like me, I would go, we have a problem because I was, I just rebelled against any form of discipline. I just, I couldn't, I couldn't deal with it. If they said, don't do that, I would always do the opposite. There was, you know, one particular school I went to and the teachers were just brutal, I mean, to the point where, you know, I mean, I went home one day like I was beaten up because this teacher whacked me so hard. And eventually, you know, I told my mom and my mom came to the school and had this massive fallout with the headmaster and this awful teacher. So I think that didn't help. I think they knew I was kind of bright but not academic. Yeah, I guess you never really finished school. I mean, I think you left or dropped out when you were like 16 or maybe 17. Yeah.

And then a few years later, you got one of your first, I guess, quote-unquote, real jobs at EMI music publishing, which was in the mail room. Yeah. And from what I read, you pretty much hated it, right? I didn't actually hate the job. I tell you what I experienced. I kind of was bullied a bit. there were people who were my age by the way a little bit older who would work in say the copyright department of eMI music publishing you know they were what i would call desk jobs so they were my age and i'm wandering around with my mail car and they used to be sort of sneering you know like oh here comes you know the male guy you know and they were just rude so i just was frustrated i suppose I didn't like them. I didn't actually want their job. I just didn't like being sneered at.

Having said that, I actually quite liked the job because I thought eventually I'm going to get out there and I'll find a job, you know, because I started to understand what a music publishing company actually does. And actually being in the mail room, I used to see some of the checks that turned up. I'm like, my God, these people are making a fortune. Yeah. You know, I used to always go into like the executive's rooms when I delivered mail and just say, well, come on, give me a job working for you. And it didn't happen, unfortunately. And I think you left that mailroom job, like after a year or maybe two and went to work briefly at your dad's real estate company. But then he went back to EMI.

But this time with a better, with like a better job, right, like helping to, I guess, produce cover songs or something like that? Yeah, so my job was sort of a song plugger, which was any copyrights EMI, you know, owned from, say, I don't know, country artists from America, I would listen to thousands of songs, you know, over a period of time, and then try and get other people to record them. And a lot of these songs were hits in America, weren't hits in the UK, and I would then try and find a well-known artist to, cover these songs. So I would meet with A&R guys on a regular basis or try to, which was honestly really, really difficult to do. And once you were in, you had about 30 seconds. And if they didn't like what you were doing, they would basically just throw you out. And so you're doing that. And did you, did you, I mean, did you successfully sign anybody like notable? I think I got a lot of songs recorded. So it was enough for my,

boss to say, I think, Simon, you're going to do well, you know, in music. I've been thinking about leaving EMI. Would you consider leaving with me? And I'd only been in that job for about, I don't know, a year. And I was so young and naive. I didn't really know what I was doing. And I was like, well, okay, but I'm quite happy. Are you sure this is the right thing to do? And he said, yeah, I've got some financial backing. Cut a long story. short. I said yes, and I went with him, and then I realized very quickly, we just didn't have the money we would need to be an independent music publishing company. This was Ellis Rich, I think, who was your boss, and he formed a label that, I guess, really went nowhere.

Yeah. Well, Ellis did well, to be fair to him. I mean, he became, I think, president of one of the publishing associations or something. So he was very well respected. Just for me at that age, I had very itchy feet and I thought I don't have the patience to try and build something from scratch. And I also didn't really want to be a music publisher. I wanted to be an A&R guy. I'd made that decision. You wanted to be the guy who was going out there, going to shows, going to clubs, looking for up-and-coming artists to sign, basically. Yeah, I thought the fun job would be to be the person who signs the artists and makes the records, basically.

Just for me, it was more exciting than being a music publisher, which is quite slow. So that's why I decided to do that. Did you naturally feel comfortable, like, in this role of going to gigs and just going up to artists and bands that didn't? know you and just kind of introduce yourself and try to strike up a conversation with them? Well, it's a good question. I don't think anyone even today is really trained to be an A&R person. I don't even know how people today, you know, get that job because a lot of the A&R people I knew were genuinely tone deaf. Seriously. So it was all about blacking it. I just thought, you know,

what, I just want to have hit records. That was it. And this was just at the cusp where there was this kind of crossover period between what was happening in a lot of the gay clubs in the UK. They were kind of ahead of the curb. It was like, you want to know what's going to happen in six months time, you went to this club. The music was fantastic. The energy was incredible. So I would sit in the booth and just watch and listen and think, yeah, if I can get a record as good as one as those with an artist signed to me, I think this is a good way to start. It just made sense. And I was fortunate one night. I was out and I met this girl and she told me that she'd be making some demos and I heard her songs and I thought actually she can really see.

And I felt with her, Sinita, this girl, actually, if we could find a record that we could break through those clubs, but is commercial enough to then be a record, that might be a good way of starting. What was your sort of criteria in your mind? I mean, I want to kind of dig into the story of Sinita a bit, because this is like 1983. and she's a teenage singer, right? And were you listening for a sound that you just appealed to you?

Or were you listening for something that you thought would have mass appeal, whether you liked it or not? I kind of had a benchmark in terms of what I thought the record should sound like. So we made two records. One was called cruising and one was called Sir Macho. And I just thought those two words so macho, it's funny. And I thought the lyric is quirky enough to be a crossover record. And I could break the record probably by taking Sanita to every kind of club I could in the UK.

You know, we'd manufacture, I don't know, five, six hundred white labels, 12-inch finals. and I would take the white labels into the club, go out to the DJ, can you play this record? Yes. And then if they liked it, sometimes they would invite her back to actually perform in the club. So we started to build a kind of an audience for her really at a grassroots level. It reminds me of so much of the story Troy Carter told about Lady Gaga, you know, going in vans all up and down, California in clubs. It's really amazing. I mean, that's how you have to do it.

So there's a song so macho, and I confess I have heard it and seen the video. We didn't have a big budget. No, clearly you did. But I mean, this was a, this was somebody you had kind of quote unquote discovered and had this song written for her. And I guess you borrowed money to put the song out, to make this record, to press the records and get some kind of video. But I'm wondering, like, in 1984, 85, how do you, how do you then, you know, when you're just you, you're a young guy with, you know, how do you get, how do you get that on the radio? How do you get that song to be heard? Well, that was the issue.

I met this guy, Ian Burton, who I really liked because he ran a management company and an agency, a traditional kind of agency. Was he older than you? Yeah, he was probably about 10 years older than me. And I said to him one day, I said, look, Ian, I really like you. And I think you're doing really smart. Have you ever thought about running a record label? He went, I wouldn't know how to start. And I said, well, I could do that for you.

So in other words, if you pay me, it's your company. I just need a salary. He said, well, how much you want? I said, I don't know, 65 pounds a week. And I can't remember the number we ended up. It wasn't as high as that. it was round about that figure. So I started very quickly found Sinita,

and I persuaded him to give me enough money to sign her, make a record, make a video, and everything else that goes with it. I did the radio promotion myself. I did the television promotion myself. As you could tell by the video, we didn't have much money. It was somebody in a camcorder. It was classically bad.

And I had to release this particular record three times. I tried to get into the top 40 each time, whether it was the clubs or whether it was getting the artist on TV. I would do anything I could to get my record in the chart. Even to the point, there was a soap opera, which was running for years in the UK. I used to phone the producer of this soap opera because they used to have a cafe and in the cafe they had a radio and I'd say,

could you play my record on the radio on the show next week? And he'd be like, what? I'm like, yeah, I just want people to hear this record. So I was just, I was a constant hustler which meant it started to get some radio plays and some traction. And then the record just flies up the charts.

So I thought, oh my God, the world's fantastic. This is incredible. You know, it's my first record. Everyone's doing well. I bought a house. I bought a car. And then... This was just to interrupt for a moment.

I mean, this was all in the strength of that first single, so macho. So you as the sort of the person behind this song, you didn't write it, but you produced it. And, I mean, you had made quite a bit of cash off. of that song? Well, I was making, yeah, I was making more than 65 pounds a week and it sold, I can't remember, 800,000, a million copies. And I guess you should mention that there was another hit song that she had called Toy Boy, which is like a proto Spice Girls song. Like it's, it was 10 years before the Spice Girls, but it had elements of what that would be 10 years later. Yeah. It's sort of, there's like a spice girl's element of like wannabe at the beginning with a group of young women.

and just kind of rap singing, and then Sinida kind of takes over the song. And it's called Toy Boy. And it's a totally ridiculous song. But it became a huge hit. And I mean, this is what I'm curious about, right? Because especially because, you know, in certain kind of parts of our culture, there's a tendency for especially young people to kind of become like music snobs. Like, oh, that's not cool.

Or, you know, like, like at your time, it was like, somebody would be listening to Smiths, not Toyboy, right? Like that kind of person would just have utter contempt for that kind of popular music. And I wonder whether you were, because you were onto something, you understood that people were going to like that song, and it didn't matter what the sort of the Smiths crowd might have thought of it, right? It's a really, you're absolutely spot on. You've hit the nail on the head.

This is what I had to deal with. And to your point about, you know, know, the song itself, I actually thought it's a very commercial song. I could picture in my mind people liking the song. I liked the song. I thought the melody was brilliant and it just sounded like an obvious hit record. I mean, what I never did though, I never tried to pretend that I could produce a record or be a musician because I can't produce records. I can't play instruments. I don't know what note anyone's any singing in, whether it's C, B, D or G. I have no idea. So I only, I base everything I ever do based on do I like it. I never guess. It's like,

do I like it? Yes or no. All right. So everything's looking good with these two hit songs you've got with Sanita. But then you run into some trouble, right? Because I guess at one point, like your record label had gotten acquired by a larger company and then sometime in the late 80s, that company kind of, I guess, went bust.

Yeah. So basically, you know, my label was just a tiny part of this much larger company, which I didn't have anything to do with. So when the larger company went broke, we only found out when we turned up for work one day and, you know, we were told as we tried to get in, the company's bust.

So you're broke. You had a mortgage on your house and what did you do at that point? I mean, did you, I'm assuming that part of you knew that you would be okay because you had already had experience with success or was it a low point? Do you remember feeling like I failed? Well, I was making anything to make money. So there was one sort of craze that happened. They were called Megamixes. And what a Megamix was is that you would find a session singer and say, I don't know, ABBA, you'd do an ABBA mega mix. So you would just find singers who sound like ABBA and just record 10 ABBA songs and get a DJ to mix one song into the next, into the next,

into the next, put them on 12-inch, and sell them as export records. And we could sell 10,000 at a time, if we were lucky, and make a decent profit. So I just jumped on this, and I was making tons of these records. And I did make a WAM mega-mix. Unfortunately, George Michael didn't like the wear a mega mix. So we were taken to court and George Michael's lawyer was a guy called Tony Russell. So as we lost this case, I walked up to him and I said, Mr. Russell, you absolutely killed us in there. Would you mind representing me in the future? I just liked him. And so when all this terrible things were happening in my life. The one person I reached out to at that point was this lawyer, Tony Russell, and I said, look, I've got myself into a real mess. I had next-of-equity on the house. I owed the bank a lot of money. I had nothing, basically. And I said, Tony, what do I do? And he said, you're going to have to find a major label, Simon, now. to back you. And that means getting a label deal. I said, what does that mean? He said, well,

some of the major labels are offering, you know, people like yourself, their own label, which, you know, you'll own a part of, but they will bankroll everything. Because without that, there's nowhere else for you to go. Two companies were willing to meet me. One, I think, was Polydor, which is now part of Universal. And the other companies, company was BMG. And I went in to meet with Polydor. I thought we had a really great meeting. I basically told him, you know, I've had some success. I think there's a massive gap in the market, you know, for pop music. This is what I do best. I had the similar meeting with BMG, which I didn't think went as well. And then two days later, I got a phone call for my lawyer and he said, they don't want to do it.

And I'm like, okay, so where we left? He said, you're left now with BMG. If they say no, you have a big problem. So I had to wait about a week, and I'll never forget it. He called me and he went, I've just heard back from BMG. And I went, yeah? He said, they're going to give you one year. And that was probably one of the most exciting phone calls I've ever had in my life.

So you become like an independent consultant. for BMG, like an ANR consultant for a year. You get a year contract. And I'm assuming under the terms of this, you had to sell a minimum number of records for them. Correct. It's exactly right. That was part of the condition,

is that because I didn't have any artists at that point. I had to start really all over again. I had an ANR budget, which wasn't very much, by the way. I was able to hire, I think, an assistant. And I remember we were in their offices the first week in this tiny little office with one telephone and we just used to stare at it and it never rang. So it's like, okay, fine. I know.

Well, I didn't have a business plan, nothing. You know, it was literally just sell records. Whatever we can find, just sell records. That's all I kept thinking about. The thing that I'm really interested in is that while you are in that time at BMG, you do, you just, you don't. did something very unusual and risky and kind of crazy, which is you suggested signing, like, well, puppets, for example. Doing, doing a, so I should, I should get some backstory here because I don't think most people will know who Zig and Zag are. Zig and Zag were this, it was this weird TV show.

I think it was Irish and there was these weird alien puppets and they would just sing songs. It would be the kind of thing today that would just pop up on. TikTok or YouTube and be huge. I mean, it was just really funny Irish humor, which kids and adults liked. It was nuts. And I remember there was something about them singing. So, you know, obviously they weren't real puppets. So I found out who the two guys were.

And I called them. And I said, you know, hi, I'm Simon. I'm a worker BMG. Would you ever, you know, consider about putting our record? Because you are, you know, singing on what of the shows they were doing. And they went, yeah. And at the same time, the Power Rangers were huge in the UK. And I said, no, I can't remember which one came first, Power Rangers or the world wrestlers.

But I also, someone told me that the wrestlers had sold out Wembley Stadium, 87,000 seats in two minutes. And I'm like, what? And, you know, I'd seen enough of them on TV and saw how much music they used. in their shows to go, gosh, they're sending so much merchandise. If I could get the wrestlers on record, this is a no-brainer, which I, you know, fortunately managed to get them to do. And I did the same thing with the Power Rangers. I mean, so Zig and Zag, Power Rangers, WrestleMania.

So let's kind of take Power Rangers, for example. Like, they had music, right? They had their theme song, and there was music in a show. So I can imagine how you could take that theme and get some artists together. or whoever was making the music for Power Rangers and have them write eight or ten songs for a record and put that together and put that out there. WrestleMania, that's come up.

So basically the idea was if I'm trying to work this out of my head, you thought, okay, let's get these wrestlers, put them in a recording studio, and give them, I don't know, things to say or just have them kind of talk or give them some lines to sing, and then we'll get professional singers to fill in the gaps and add beats

and just make 10 songs? Like, how did you conceive of what that would be? You know, once I got the deal, I went to see one of the shows. And I actually thought the show was brilliant, but I loved more than the wrestling was the entrances, because each wrestler had a kind of like a signature theme. Yeah. So I thought actually music's a huge part of what the show is.

So, you know, whether you're the undertaker or whether you're the undertaker or whether you're the British Bulldog or whatever, each person should have a kind of a signature song. By this point, I was at BMG. I used to sit in these A&R meetings, and it took me back to the times of when I was delivering the mail. These guys in these A&R meetings used to look at me, like I am the lowest form in the room.

They couldn't even make eye contact with me. because they were so serious. And they were playing all these cool bands that were trying to sign and not doing great. And I used to, you know, play these crazy songs. And they would sometimes just get up and walk out the meeting and tell me to my face what an idiot I was. And I'm like, well, it's the music business. I'm just trying to make money. You know, it doesn't really matter, does it?

If someone's enjoying it, let them enjoy it. Who cares? I mean, the thing about any industry, and it's like whether it's music or, you know, or or my world or whatever, I mean, people get horse blanders on, right? And so all of the people around, like all the people who are in that world had a certain view of what good music was and what it meant to be respected and appreciated and for a good review from a critic. But essentially, it sounds like you didn't, that wasn't in on your radar screen. Like you, you, you're focused on. what is going to sell? Yeah, and look, to be fair, when I made the Power Rangers record and the video, I actually loved it. I mean, I've got goosebumps when I saw the video.

I just thought it was fantastic. I found it really exciting. I knew the music industry would hate it, but I personally liked it. It got to a point, however, where it was so miserable in one part of BMG I was working for, I just had enough one day because I was sitting in this label meeting. They were making the projections for the final quarter of that year.

And everyone had played their songs. And my boss turned around to me and said, and what have you got, Simon? I said, well, I've got some pretty good news. You know, I've got the Power Rangers. And I've got Zig and Zing-Zang. And she's, what? And I went, yeah.

And I, well, can we hear them? I said, yeah. And I put these records on. There was absolute deadly silence in the room. And there was a huge board, which she was writing on. And she just wrote a massive zero on the board after me playing these two songs. And I just said, that's it. So I went up to the big boss.

And I said, I'm walking out my contract. I just can't deal with this anymore. You know, I'm making you a lot of money. I'm being humiliated. and he said, look, I'll tell you what, I'll move you to another label, you know, within BMG, the cool label, but the best label to be on was RCA at that point. And they were really doing well. And they moved me over to RCA.

So with the same deal, and my boss, you know, direct boss was head of A&R. And he just said, look, I get it, Simon. You know, I understand what you're doing. don't let anybody make you lose your confidence. You've got a good track record from where you've come. Just make sure your first records are hit here. And that was it. When we come back in just a moment,

how Simon taps into television yet again to find his next hit and then winds up on camera himself. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the early 1990s. Simon is working as an A&R consultant for BMG and scouting around for his next hit record. The way the business worked in those days, we were still manufacturing records. So all the independent shops or the chains, if they wanted to reorder a record, they would phone the tele sales department.

And I used to go in and talk to all the people in there. What's hot at the moment, you know, what's selling. It just gave me a kind of an idea what was going on. And I was very friendly with a lot of them. And just by luck, one morning I walked in. And one of the girls who I think ran the operation, she said, Simon, we're getting calls all morning for a song by two actors from a TV show.

I said, what is it? She goes, Unshamed Melody. And I said, okay, leave it to me. So anyway, I track it down, which, which was the night before on this show is a drama series called Soldier Soldier. These two actors, in a kind of a love triangle story, one of them or both of them are singing this song. In the show. In the show, not for long, and it's in the end credits.

And it was, I mean, obviously a cover of Unchained Melody, which was written, I think, in the 50s and then famously sung by the Righteous Brothers. And because the story was so powerful, the song just resonated immediately. So the following morning, thousands of people literally are walking into record shops saying, is that record available? And so the shops were phoning all the companies saying, do you have the rights to this record? And they went, no. So I'm like, okay, this is a good opportunity.

So anyway, got hold of their agents. Hi, I'm Simon Cowell. We're going to buy this record. Would your clients be interested? No. What do you mean? No. They're actors.

Let me talk to them personally. No. Anyway, I get hold of them personally eventually. Would you ever consider doing this? Absolutely not. And I said, well, why? And they just said, we're not interested. So I thought, I can't give up on this.

I felt I had an understanding of what the audience wanted. it and that's always what drove me, which I thought if there was a potential demand for something, give them what they want. So I just was relentless. You hounded these guys. I did hound them, if I'm being honest with you. So finally, I was able to meet one of them and I said, look, I know that you're taking this really seriously. I think there will still be a demand for this record if I can get you in a studio quickly. Make the song. I'll get it out, you have to do much. On top of that, if you go in the studio,

I'll give you 100,000 pounds to split between the two of you. And they went, really? And I went, yeah. So I managed to actually get them on a television show to perform the record. It was actually the National Lottery. The lottery show was big in those days. So we did it.

And then the following morning is the day of release and if you get three, four thousand, five thousand repeat orders on the first morning, you're heading to a top ten. You get 10 to 20,000 you're heading to a top five. You get 50,000 plus repeat orders. You're heading top two, number one. So I really need to know because we basically had to on sale of return, give the record stores a ton of records we all.

also manufactured. So the risk now is getting higher and higher and higher. So I'm really in a hole here. I was so nervous that morning. What's the repeat order like this morning? And I looked on the screen and I saw this number and I went, no, what is the real repeat order this morning? That number was 930,000. Wow. It goes ballistic, this record. And I mean ballistic. everyone, not only did they sell out, once people knew the record was available, everyone's trying to buy this record. We can't make enough records. So I've got every pressing plant across Europe in 24 hours trying to make enough stock to

fulfill the demand. And I think that was my real first kind of like, you know, oh my God moment. You know, television is such an important, you know. key here. Emotions are such an important key. Everything, you know, together. If you manage to make all those things work together, you know, this is incredible. All right. Let's, so you have this, this sort of mega hit and you're still in this joint venture with BMG and, and, and, and essentially an A&R, but you've got, you kind of, it's kind of like your own imprint, like in publishing. essentially. It's sort of a similar analogy. And one of the, one of the acts that kind of

slipped through your fingers and you've written about this, which was a regret of yours, was the Spice Girls. Not, I don't think it was your, I think you wanted to sign them. Yeah. But you couldn't sign them. I think the girls were told that I'd passed on them. That wasn't the story. We used to have to sit in an A&R meeting once a week and a business affairs meeting once a week. There was a very kind of rigid system. You know, every week, you would have to tell everyone what you were working on, you know, whether you had a chance of a hit, who you were signing. And then in the business affairs meeting, you would be told whether you're making money or not. So, you know, it was a really good system. They'd created, you know,

within BMG to kind of teach us to be entrepreneurs as well as music executives. You know, It was really, really smart, actually. So during one meeting, I remember one of the A&R guys saying, I'm hearing a buzz about a band called Spice. So it was in the back of my mind. And then I went to a meeting with my people who used to plug my records, and they had been hired to work on the Spice Girls at an early stage. And as I pulled up, the girls were in a camper van or something.

And for some reason, knew who I was. you know, as an A&R person and then dragged me into their van and played me wannabe. And this is before mobile phones. I get in my car, floor it back to my office, call the manager and said, look, I'll literally double whatever deal you've been offered if you haven't already signed. And he said, too late to sign. And so whether they had or not, I don't know if that was true or not, but that's how I missed out on them.

But soon after that, you sign Westlife, which also became. comes a huge act. And I know that you've talked about this. When Westlife, when their record hit number one, you also found out that same day that your father had passed. Yeah. Yeah. And the terrible thing about it was, was, yeah,

I mean, I was kind of at a point where I never actually could believe that my parents would ever pass away. I just loved them so much. I just couldn't ever imagine it. So when I was playing demos and things like this at home, you know, my dad had a really good ear for music. And he would say, I think that's going to be a hit, Simon. I would go with that record if you're going to choose between the two.

And he was always right. And he'd heard the first Westlife single. And he said, I think that's going to be a big hit for you. And I'm like, really? He went, yeah. Okay. Well, I'm going to give it a shot. I believe in this band.

And I was in, I think I was. I think I was in America. I was at a conference and I was waiting to get the news about the first morning's repeat orders, which were great. And it was a, wow, this looks like it's going to go to number one. And then my boss walks into my bedroom and goes, I've got some news for you. And I'm like, oh my God. and it just hit me like a train. You know, I just wasn't prepared for it.

So, you know, I flew home and went to see my mom, and I think I had to take at least one or two months off work. I just couldn't go into work. I was so upset. Yeah, I can imagine. And, I mean, this happens about the time where your career takes yet another, major turn because, I mean, here you are. You've got a bunch of successful records now, right? Westlife and, I mean, you know, you could have been like a super producer, like a Clive Davis, right? Like we could have been talking about now, 20, 25 years later, all these artists that you signed and you signed this band and that band, but that's not the direction your career went into, right? So before we get to where it went, did you, let's say, I don't know, 1999, 2000, could you have anticipated that for the next 25 years of your life, you would become a television star? Like, was that even on your radar?

Never. No. I got an approach about this show. It was called pop stars. And it was about making a band, basically, on TV. And there was going to be auditions. And if I agreed to be the judge, then I would get the group that was created, which I did think, yes, this sounds like a pretty good idea. Reality TV is starting to take off and I could sort of see this in my head, which is, yeah, I think people find the whole process interesting and it's a great platform for a new artist, so, you know, whoever the group is, they're going to sell a lot of records. So initially, I said yes. And then I thought about it and I went, you know what? No, I'm not going to do it. It's just too much out of my time. It's not something I'm even remotely interested in. So I call back

the television company and I said, I'm not going to do it. So they gave that role to somebody else, another ANR guy. So, however, I'd heard enough about the show that it was niggling me. And I went away on holiday. And I think I must have seen something, whether it was, I'd seen one of the episodes, a short bit of it. And I thought, oh, God, this is going to be. to be huge. We've got to find a way of coming up with our own version, which is what me and

another guy did. This is Simon Fuller, who is the manager of the Spice Girls. And so you kind of got together with him to create your own concept. Yeah. Me and Simon went into two companies, ITV, BBC, both said yes. However, ITV said, you've got to be on the panel. And I just, I just thought I can't miss out a second time. So I said, yeah, I'll do it for a year. You know, the artist gets signed to me, which is all I really cared about, if I'm being honest with you. And then after a year, someone else could do it. That's honestly what I had in the back of my mind. And then when the show aired, it became an instant hit. And then America instantly made an offer to do their version. So Idol becomes a huge success in the UK. And Fox's

very soon after wants to make a version, an American version of it, American Idol. And this really is the first time American audiences are introduced to you. And this is 2002 when Terrestrial TV was totally different than what it is now. Like people would sit down and watch en masse. So all of a sudden there's this Brit on American TV next to Paula Abdul and Randy Jackson. Most people knew who Paul Abdul was. A lot of people might know Randy Jackson. They didn't know who you are. So how are you introducing? produced to American audiences. How is your sort of credibility established? How did they do that? I mean, there was none. I mean, first of all, when they made the offer, I said yes. And then about a day later, I called them back and I went, I'm just not interested. It's not going to happen. And I really had made my mind up. It was absolutely no. Why were you not interested? I mean, this was massive exposure for your business at the very least. I just didn't love the whole being on TV that much. I mean, I kind of loved the idea of signing the artist.

The being on TV just, you know, wasn't really my thing, if I'm being honest with you, guy, genuinely. And then a friend of mine who I really respected, I spoke to her, and said, I'm in a bit of a dilemma at the moment. You know, they want me to do the show in America. I don't know if it's going to work there or not. And she said, well, look, Simon, no. you, either way, you're going to beat yourself up. If it is a hit and you say no, you're going to beat

yourself up. If it isn't a hit, you could say, if I was on the show, maybe I could have made it better. So I'm like, yeah, you're right, you're right. Okay. So I agreed. And by the way, I didn't ask for any money for myself on both the British show and the American show on the first year. I said, I don't want a contract. I don't want to be paid. If it works, then we're going to have another conversation if it works. So all you got was you were guaranteed to sign the winner. Correct. Yeah. That was, yeah. And that's what I really wanted.

And so when I went to America, I remember we rented a house and I got to the house and the real estate agent said, I'm not sure about this new show of yours. And I said, why? He says, well, the network have asked for a one month break in the rental agreement. Oh, great. Anyway, we made the auditions.

The auditions were just a mess, if I'm being honest with you. There weren't that many good people, and I just thought this is a disaster, an absolute disaster. To be honest with you, Guy, genuinely, I finished filming. I didn't even know when the show was going to air in America. I actually didn't know. I'd forgotten about it. I was back busy in the UK. And then I get this phone call.

I just hear this guy screaming down. the phone. You know, the ratings are, the ratings are in. And it's a hit. I'm like, what? American Idol. Everyone's talking about it. And they want to meet you. And I'm like, really? And they went, yeah. I'm like, okay. And that dynamic worked for, at least from the viewer's perspective, worked so well with Paul Abdul and Randy Jackson. Like, it just, the three of you. It was the perfect chemistry. Yeah. But here's a thing, right? And so that first season kind of legendary, And I know it very well because I've interviewed Kelly Clarkson twice on different shows that I do. And so I've gone deep into that experience for her, like winning that, right? And Kelly Clarkson becomes Kelly Clarkson, right? It's his first season and now she then she becomes a megastar.

What? I mean, you didn't want to be on TV, right? You were, it just, it sounds like you were just, it wasn't, it wasn't interesting to you. But the thing about being on TV, because I was on TV for two years back and, in, as a reporter, 20 years ago, it's a completely different beast. Like there's a, there's a charisma you have to find. You've got to jump out of the camera. And it and it, and some people have it. And some people really have to work on it and learn it. It, it. It, it's, it's. It. It. It doesn't, you don't come across as like a two-dimensional person in that, like, you come across to somebody very comfortable on TV. So, but was it uncomfortable for you? No, because I'd done so many auditions in my life because we were always creating bands and groups. You know, that was all we ever used to do. I mean, I spent most of my year auditioning people and I knew what auditions were like, you know, they were like most of the time people aren't very. good. You have to be honest. They're pretty quick. And what I wasn't going to do was change who I was just because I was on TV. I wasn't going to lie to these people and say, oh, I think you're amazing

and everything's going to happen because I knew the reality, you know, which is, it's hard enough if you can sing. I mean, it's impossible if you can't sing. So I was just frustrated that first year thinking, I just want to find a star. And if we don't find a star, I'm going to look really stupid. So I'm getting increasingly frustrated. you would already been doing at auditions, which were not filmed. You would get people together and you would give them feedback, and the feedback was just very blunt, and then you were doing the same thing. It's not like you created a persona of like this harsh guy.

It's you were just doing what you do. I always respected tough love. And I did make that very clear, by the way, when I agreed to do the show in America, I said, look, just so we're clear, I'm not going to pretend to like people. I don't like. I'm just not. Yeah, and I am not judging you. Maybe a little bit. No, I'm not judging. I promise. But I'm curious about how, like, how that kind of played out because I think your feedback

today is slightly kinder a little bit. And maybe that's just because we're in a different era. But like in the earlier days and certainly, you know, as it went on, you can see people are like deeply hurt. And, and I get it. Like, sometimes. you would have people come on or often and they would say, I'm going to be the next pop star. I'm going to be the biggest star in the world. And they'd come on and it would be shocking. Like they were so horrible. And you would think, are you delusional?

And that's what you want to like, most of us in our minds are like, are you delusional? But most of us wouldn't say that because we're kind of socialized not to say that. We'd say, oh, thanks so much. That was, that was interesting. I think we're going to pass. Look, I mean, the point is going back to what I learned. you know, becoming successful in A&R was when you first start out, you have to have a correct steer. Because if I hadn't had that correct steer, if I'd had somebody lying to me and saying everything

which I was doing wrong was right, I never ever, I promise you guy, would not have been able to have a successful career. If you're entering into the entertainment full stop, you've got to have thick skin because you're going to get so much rejection. I actually think, for the me, I would rather someone say to my face, I think your idea stinks. It's absolutely terrible, and this is why it's terrible, and I'd go, well, I'll disagree. Rather than it's wonderful, and then as I lead the room, they go, that's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. And, you know, that does happen. I've heard it happen. And to give you an example, when I talked about setting up that very first business, you know, when I got that job at EMI.

And we, you know, it was a tiny little business and we needed backing, you know, by by getting money from each territory to give us an advance against earnings. That was the business kind of model. So we had to go to America. So I turn up in my very, very early 20s to L.A. and I'm like, oh my God, this is unbelievable. Look at this place. It's everything and more. And I go into meet all these people and I thought, my God, I've had 10 meetings in a row. And everyone's going to back me, every single person. This is incredible. I never heard a word from any of those people. And I was really pissed off. Because I thought, wow, every single one of you lied. Just lied. I would rather someone said, Simon, the reason why we are not going to back you is your songwriters aren't very good. The songs you played are terrible. You don't have a business model, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we are not going to risk any money. about your wild idea. And I would have gone, I respect that. When we come back in just a moment, Simon talks about his latest project, which he says is one of the hardest things he's ever done. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This, I'm Guy Raz. So by the mid-2000s, Simon Cowell has one of the most recognizable names in TV, is the force behind American Idol,

America's got talent and the X Factor. And one day, while he's judging one of those shows, a kid who works in a bakery named Harry Stiles shows up to sing. He's got a lot of charisma. You can see it already as a 16-year-old kid. I mean, of course, you remember that moment because he became Harry Stiles. Do you feel like when you see somebody like that, you are 100% airtight sure that they will make it? No. No, I think what you're looking for on a first audition is potential.

You know, has this person got potential? That's the only thing I think you can say. I mean, some people, you know, have better voices on their first audition, but may not have charisma. Harry had a good voice. He was nowhere near the peak of, you know, what he could do as a vocalist. But, you know, his charm was just, I mean, crazy charm. I mean, he was 16. He wasn't phased by 7,000 people, you know, in front of him.

And he's talking to be about pies and cakes and stuff like that. I just really liked him. And that was it. I think it was that season where the other singers would be put together as one direction, right? Was that same expectation? I mean, was it like my sort of conspiratorial mind is like that was engineered. Like to find those guys and have them all auditioned separately. And then for them to come together and make this band One Direction just seems like totally fantastical.

Well, it was interesting. None of them really popped, you know, as they did on their first audition. And I remember seeing, you know, the five of those in particular just going, you know, we don't have room for them as individuals. But this would be crazy. crazy to lose them. And then I just turn around to the other two sitting at the table and I went, well, why don't we put them in a band?

I mean, it was quite obvious that these five just looked amazing and they had great personalities. And I just thought, you know, having put together a lot of bands, you know, in my life before, I thought, okay, well, maybe we just got lucky here. What have we got to lose? So I said, look, we're going to give you a lifeline. And you've got two weeks to work it out. And good luck.

And that was just, that was it. And this was a band that you would eventually sign to your label, Psycho, which I want to talk to you a little bit about because I think you really kind of, it really started in 2005, Psycho Entertainment as sort of a production company. Tell me a little bit about how you operate that business and also, you know, appear in, you know, up here. the shows and prepare for the shows and edit the shows and then run the business. How do you kind of manage your time? We all evolve and we find how do we work best and even something as basic as working out one year. Well, how many meetings do I actually have per year? And the number was frightening because it was over a thousand. You think about that, a thousand meetings a year. And it's very easy, you know, three, six, five times three, it's a thousand, you know.

And you, I don't think you can function well like that. I think, you know, what I've learned now is less is more. Yeah. Don't do two things in the same day, you know, whatever it is, if I'm filming, I won't take a call, won't look at an email, I will only concentrate on filming. And then when I'm doing something else, it has to be just that thing for the day. Whereas years ago, I, you know, I would be doing seven or eight different things in a day, working until seven in the morning, thinking I'm doing a great job, and I don't think I was. And it sounds crazy, but in between all of this is how do you make everything good? You know, how do you make each artist sound good?

How do you make the show look good? How do you make each week better than last week? I mean, that's really the only thing that's going on in your head is that, is that, that no matter how overwhelming this is, the quality's got to get better. I wonder about just all of that time. I know you've got a child and that, I'm assuming, changed your life. You know, I've got two kids and it does change your life. It changes how you see the world. But before that time, would you have called, I mean, were you such a weird question? And I know Brits particularly hate this question, but were you happy? I mean,

would you have called yourself a happy person? I mean, you were so successful outwardly, making a lot of money or a celebrity, traveling all over the place? I don't think so particularly, no. No, I don't. I did actually remember saying to myself, before Eric was born, is this as good as it gets? Because you get very stupidly get caught up in ratings battle, battles, chart positions.

You know, I know this is important, but I started. to think that was more important than the quality. And I had to do a massive, massive shift. And luckily, when Eric came along, and I started to really, I suppose, well, first of all, I just looked at everything he loved as a kid. And I realized that actually he still loves the Jungle Book. He loves 101 Dalmatians.

He loved every movie I've ever loved. Nothing had changed. And it kind of reminded me actually, when something's good, it's good. And if it can last a generation, isn't that your main kind of aim, rather than trying to be so radical one week to get the ratings up that it might damage your long-term brand or something, which I think we all were guilty of at some point, you know, where now I'm completely the opposite. it. I'm thinking, you know, if you get to 20 years with a show, how do you get to the next 20 years? And you don't do it through gimmicks or anything else. You do it by the talent has to get better. The editing's got to get better. Everything has to get better. You know, that's the kind of the drive I still have. What does the drive come from? Is it you against yourself? Is it you against, I don't know, someone else or an idea of, of what people had of you, because you're driven by something that keeps you got.

Like, you could stop working now, and of course, it would be interesting because working is interesting, but you are still, I wonder if you're still chasing something. I've always chasing something. I'm doing something at the moment where I am really putting myself in the public eye

to prove that I can do something I was well known for doing a few years ago, but I haven't done it recently. And I did it to prove a point, I think, to myself, that I either can or can't do it. This is your launch to find a new boy band? Yeah, yeah. And I did it, you know, not with any, you know,

buffer in any form whatsoever. It was this is when we are going to launch it, and this is going to see if we get enough people to audition. And if we don't get enough people, we're going to have to do what I used to do years ago and just promote, promote, promote. And to the point on the first day, genuinely, guy, I had no idea whether there was going to be two people or 400 people waiting for me. I just didn't know. And it was absolutely terrifying. And then when I finished the auditions, because I'd only auditioned them once, I honestly didn't

know whether they were any good or not. I just didn't know. And so there were times when I was making this thinking, why have I put myself through this? And I suppose it's because, you know, when I'm sitting on a show and people want my opinion, I don't want them to base that opinion on something I did 10 years ago or 20 years ago because I'm not really interested in that. I'm only really interested in what I'm doing today and tomorrow. And to launch this, this idea of launching a search for a new band. And by the way, I think you have found the band, right? The band's created. Is it public yet? No.

No. Okay. So when will it be made public? I think around about maybe the end of the year I'm thinking. Got it. Okay. So from everything I read it was a struggle, it probably is a struggle, right? To find the right mix of guys, right, who can do this.

It's one of the hardest things I've ever done. And with the pressure that this is all being documented. And if this goes wrong, this is going to be really, really embarrassing. But I think, you know, and I was thinking about this before, you know, we're having this conversation today because I was thinking, you know, we're going to touch on this. And I do think, as much as I don't like thinking about the past, I do love that hustle I used to have to do on a daily basis because it was that, or you don't survive. I mean, you know, I wasn't left any money. I didn't really make any money until I was in my 30s. I had to really kind of just hustle everything. And I really loved it. And so when I like to sometimes put myself back in that position where the odds are against me

and can we make it work without any guarantee? It's kind of this weird thrill I still get. I don't know why, but I do. Simon, when you think about the journey you've taken, right, from dropping out and mailroom and and here you are now, right? I mean, certainly one of the most well-known, if not the best-known kind of music executive in the world, maybe. How much of that do you attribute to how hard you worked and how much do you think had to do with just luck and circumstance? everything you have to have luck i think you have to work hard i mean there's no question about that um i

mean you know what i called the hustle that was the hard work i mean you know you know when i was promoting that first record i would be you know driving hours to clubs all over the country every single night you know just to get my record in front of an audience it was the only way so the idea of not doing that meant failure so i just no one else is going to do it for me because I had no resources. So it was just that. It was single swim. Yeah.

You know, this whole path I've been on, it's worked because I've also had amazing people working with me, you know, I've just been very, very fortunate. And I do believe I've been a good mentor. And many people have been an amazing mentor to me as well. I really believe in that whole mentorship thing, you know, which is, is, you know, someone comes in without much experience. And, you know, you hope that after working with you for, say, 10 years, they're going to go on and do wonderful things on their own.

I get a real kick out of that. That's music mogul, Simon Cowell. By the way, when it comes to musical recommendations, one of Simon's favorite influencers is his own son, who is now 11. I mean, he came to me about three years ago, really excited. He came running into my door. Dad, you're going to hear this band.

They're really good. And he plays me a One Direction song. I know this band. No, you don't. I said, well, yeah, I do. How do you know them? I said, well, I used to work with them. No, you didn't.

And you must have found that afterwards. Seriously, you work with them. I mean, yeah. But it was, I was very flattered because he, the song still sounds good today, you know. And that's what I think we've, been talking a lot about today is that I like to feel that, you know, the things I'm most proud of are the things that have lasted the longest.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And please sign up for my newsletter at gairozz.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by Josh Lash with music composed by Ramtin Ehrmoui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research from Imman Maani, our art. audio engineers were Patrick Murray and Jimmy Keely. Our production staff also includes Catherine Seifer, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, J.C. Howard, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung,

Carrie Thompson, Andrea Bruce, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to how I built this.