How I Built This with Guy Raz - Supergoop!: Holly Thaggard

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

In 2005, the trajectory of Holly Thaggard's life completely changed when a good friend of hers was diagnosed with skin cancer. Holly realized that most people weren't taking sunscreen seriously, so she sidelined her vocation as a harpist to dive headfirst into the unfamiliar world of SPF. After a false start trying to market her sunscreen to elementary schools, Holly pivoted to retail, hiring a publicist she could barely afford. She eventually got her products into Sephora, a success that helped turn Supergoop! into a multi-million dollar brand. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.ca. I had created these sunscreen swipes and apparently the swipes were a huge hit. So I would go around to stores during that period and the swipes were always gone. They were just wiped off the shelf. But the problem was I knew that my sales couldn't be great if there were no products on the shelf. And so I'd go into as many stores as I could with swipes in my bag

and literally like stock the shelves. Like I'd give them product, which is crazy, right? From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz. And on the show today, how Holly Thagger decided that sunscreen should be used every day and at every time of year, and how that idea grew into the multi-million dollar brand Supergoop. There's a concept in business known as product market fit. It was popularized by the well-known Silicon Valley venture capitalist Andy Rackleff, and the idea is pretty simple.

You have a product. If there's a market fit, people will buy it. If not, they won't. Sometimes there's no product market fit, the product solves a problem that no one really has. For example, Cheetos lip bomb. Did someone really think there was a market for Cheetos lip balm? At other times, there's no product market fit because the idea comes too early, before people are ready, like Pets.com, which fizzled out in 2001, but a decade later, chewy.com, which basically does the same thing,

took off and is now valued at more than $10 billion. But not having an exact product market fit doesn't necessarily mean your idea is doomed to fail. Think about Airbnb or Lyft. There was no market for those ideas at first. It took those companies a lot of time to convince consumers that it wasn't weird sleeping at a random person's house or hopping in their car. Airbnb and Lyft had to create the market for what they offered. And it's kind of the same story for Holly Thaggart and Supergoop. The vast majority of people think of sunscreen as something you use at the beach or you slather on small children before they go outdoors.

But Holly wanted to convince people that they needed to use sunscreen every day all the time year-round, like getting dressed or brushing your teeth or taking vitamins. Her whole plan was to work with educators to create awareness around skin cancer, something thousands of people are diagnosed with in the U.S. alone every single day. And Holly's business model would be based on selling giant sunscreen dispensers, kind of like those hand sanitizer dispensers, to schools. But as you will hear, that whole business model was doomed from the start, and not just because there was no product market fit. So Holly had to pivot and completely rethink her idea of how to get people to use sunscreen every day, and in the process had to basically build out a market for her product.

And although her mission is still very much a work in progress, Supergoop is now one of the top-rated sunscreens on the market. The company did about $40 million in revenue in 2018 and became profitable last year. And so far, even seems to be navigating the economic uncertainty of the pandemic. And as I often say when introducing the story of a founder, nothing about Holly's early life in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, hinted at the career she would ultimately choose, except for one important thing. Both her parents were entrepreneurs. Her dad ran a machinery business,

and her mom was an accomplished portrait painter. Yeah, she and my maternal grandmother, even her mother, they were both amazing artists. And I watched my mother's career go from, when I was younger, she created a custom handbag brand that Neiman Marcus could not keep in stock, all hand-painted and monogrammed, and she went on ultimately to paint portraits, senators and judges.

Wow. She's very talented. I feel fortunate to have her as a mother because I have portraits now of my children, and I didn't have to pay for them. Yeah, that's so cool. And so I guess as a kid, like as a little girl, you took up the harp. Is that right? How old were you?

I did, you know, but I'd even back up a little bit to that as I started on the piano. and I played the piano for several years. Gosh, I started in, I think, second grade. And by the time I got to fifth grade, I saw this bright, shiny gold harp that I didn't see anywhere other than my grandmother's living room. And I thought, gosh, if I could switch gears and play the harp, it would, you know, there's not a lot of competition. You could be the best harpist because they're, right, there probably weren't that many around you. Yeah, and everything sounds beautiful on the harp. Even when you mess up, it's pretty. Yeah. By the way, as a, you know, a fifth grader or sixth grader, how did you carry the harp? Was it on wheels? It has a dolly, and you learned how to handle it.

It's not so much that it's heavy as that it has so many moving parts. But you were not bringing the harp onto the school bus. No, no. And in fact, I played at home. And then for the talent shows, of course I'd show up, but it wasn't really until high school that I began getting really excited about the harp because I saw it more as a business. And the idea of creating a business around Holly the harpist was exciting to me. Wow, wait. So you, as you sort of got better at the harp, you thought, hey, this could be my business? Like, you were thinking this in high school? I was. I was actually already working on the weekends and every Sunday for brunch. at the local country club.

Like in the dining room, you would just be in the corner playing the harp? Yeah. Be Holly the Harpest. Be Holly the Harpest. And I could kind of set my price because there wasn't a lot of competition. So I really started out playing for like $100 an hour, which was a lot when you're in ninth grade. Wow. All right.

So you are Holly the Harpest playing harp for money, which is awesome. And you decided to go to school at Louisiana State University, which is not. that too far from where you live, I guess. And what did you, did you study music there? Yes, I did. So I was never really that great of a student. I spent those first two years in college studying music. I totally did not fit in with anyone in the music school.

I realized how serious the musicians were in college. And I was more interested in doing what I was already doing, which was performing and playing. And I was at the time, you know, still. getting jobs in New Orleans at the Museum of Art. And I played a little backup for Aretha Franklin when she came through. What? What?

What did you play with Aretha Franklin? Amazing Grace. Wow. That's, I mean, if there ever is a song to play with Aretha Franklin, you run the harp, man, that's amazing. And look, that makes me sound like I was this great harpist, but like I was so winging it. I had no idea, but I knew I couldn't say no and I had no business. I literally had to break down every measure, and I was that reading music type student, you know, but you keep in mind, like, I enjoyed the business of Holly the harp is way more than I enjoyed playing the harp.

So if you, I mean, if you didn't enjoy playing the harp that much, what, like, what did you decide that you want to do professionally? So I had also grown up because I think I'm such an organized person and I love pencils and supplies and things. I grew up thinking that being a teacher would be really fun. And I often, even when my little brother would get home from school, and, you know, keep in mind he was seven years younger than I was, I would sort of start a new session in his room and get worksheets for him and pass out my sheets. And so I thought, well, maybe I should, maybe I should be a teacher. And I guess that's what you did. I read that you went on to study education and got your first teaching job, I think, in back. Rue is that right? It was. So there was a private Episcopal school in Baton Rouge that was,

actually I later learned, was quite difficult to get a job there as a first year out of college. And how was it? It was fantastic. So I had a wonderful year. I poured my heart into doing everything that I had learned in college. I also kind of looking back now, I think I poured my hard into outdoing every other teacher in the school and kept my eye on trying to impress the board that had given me the opportunity to be there. But I loved every second of it. And in fact, I still talked to those 17 students, many of them today. But from what I've read, you were only a teacher for a year. I mean, you had this promising career. Why aren't you a teacher today, what happened? Yeah, so, you know, the end of the school year came when contracts

are placed in the teacher's boxes and I didn't receive one. And the school said they were not offering me a return contract. And I later learned as a first year teacher, you're considered provisional. And they said, you know, this was due to problems and concerns that were brought up from my other peer teachers and not really fitting in well. What did that mean? Exactly. I didn't know either. I did a lot of exploration at that moment, but I was devastated. Yeah.

I had gone to college to be a third grade school teacher, and here my career was seemingly ending very quickly. And you never got any more specific feedback? Like, what was it that you did? or not do or? I did. I did. And I learned, you know, I was sort of breaking rules. I wasn't eating lunch with the other teachers. I wasn't hanging out in the teacher's lounge, talking and connecting.

And I, if I was, you know, being completely honest with myself, I did feel a little claustrophobic within the four walls of a classroom. And they were in a way right. I did constantly look for ways to sort of leave campus early or, you know, You know, I'd say I had a hard job and double book myself. And, you know, that wasn't in the carts for me. Yeah. But, you know, after a couple of months of exploring these things, I just decided I'm going to move on.

Yeah. I mean, it is amazing, though, that setbacks can actually be a blessing that you don't realize at the time, right? Like, had you had this amazing year and they renewed your contract and you stayed, there, you might not have ever done what you did. Absolutely. I'm so grateful that that played out like it did, because I don't think I would have been pushed to go and change directions. I would have kept that cush job, and that's not what was in the cards for my life's work. So what did you end up doing next? Well, at the time, my brother was starting college at SMU and Dallas, and I, I had plenty of time on my hand, so I went to help him move in the dorms, and all I could do was look around at all the beautiful homes in Highland Park and how they all really needed Holly the Harpest in their life.

So you decided to stay in Dallas after helping him move in? Well, I knew that if I were going to propose a move to my parents, that I needed to have a job lined up. So I actually, during that brief weekend visit, I walked over to the doctor. Dallas Country Club and knocked on the door of the general manager's office and introduced myself and told them all about my music and and that I was hoping that they might look to have some new entertainment in their in their dining room. And I went back convinced my parents that I could make a living performing and moved my harp to Dallas, found an apartment and literally did the kind of back of the napkin math like how many hours a week do I need to play the harp to pay for

the rent. This is like 1996, I think. Yes. So you're like in your, you know, 22, 23 years old, living in Dallas, playing the harp, and that's, that becomes your business, Holly the Harvest? Holly the Harvest, yes. So I went from Dallas Country Club to the Petroleum Club to Brooke Hollow Golf Club and did this, made the same introduction. And this is really when I realized that building this business of Holly the Harpest was when I lost. all track of time and creating like direct mail pieces and looking into the book of list. I often would read the CEOs and write letters to their home. You know, I'm from the South, so writing letters has always been a big part of my upbringing.

But I got a really good response from just the jobs that I had and spent the next 10 years of my life actually performing. And that's how I paid the rent. You are the harpist of choice, or one of them, I guess, in Dallas and probably making a decent living. I was doing really well. My rates had gone up to. I had a thousand dollar minimum for any party, which often if a party was only an hour, that's a great. It's great money. That's like a senior partner at a law firm in New York. Right. I just wasn't billing the hours. The lawyer would bill. Yeah. And what about you? You.

your personal life, were you married? Were you single at the time? You know, no, I was just dating in Dallas. And until my late 20s, did I not meet my now husband? And his very best, closest friend in college, I performed. I played the harp for many rehearsal dinners and weddings for their family. And Mary Montgomery, the person I worked that would engage me for these, said, you've got to meet my son's best friend. And so that's how I met Ty. And we continued dating as I performed and played until, I guess, we were engaged when we were about 31.

And so this was like, what, 2004-ish, you got engaged around then? 2000, more like two, I think. Then two, okay. But when Ty and I started talking about a family and being married and everything, you know, performing on Mother's Day and Christmas and Thanksgiving, and continuing on that path just felt like it was time to retire. And it's exhausting playing evenings, and that's not a real great life or having a family. Sure.

So you're kind of done with the heart side of your life. You're newly married. And I guess something happens in 2005, which is a friend of yours is diagnosed with skin cancer. Yes. And first of all, this is, I didn't know this, but this is like one of the, you mean, most diagnosed form of cancer, you know, full stop. Yeah. When your friend was diagnosed, what was the prognosis?

Oh, and he's fine now. But, you know, I started thinking, and a good college friend of mine was going through her residency in dermatology at the time. And I was talking with her about my friend's skin cancer. And, you know, she said, Holly, it's not about the beach. It's about that every single day cumulative exposure that ultimately, and, you know, And usually much later in life becomes skin cancer. But for your friend who has blonde hair and blue eyes.

And, you know, it happened at a much younger age. It's not by going to the beach and not using sun lotion, suntan lotion. Right. Or sunblock, whatever. It's just about being outside every day. And over time, some people develop skin cancer. And by the way, most people who do develop skin cancer,

it is generally highly curable. If it's caught, you know, relatively early, it's like a... Yes. It found early. So you, to hear this, and what? And then you're thinking, well, my initial thought was this could have just as easily have been me. I have blonde hair and blue eyes. And I remember, gosh, my spring break in my middle school years, I remember going to Florida and lying on the roof of this house we rented. And I got so blistering, sunburned that I was sick and swollen. And it ruined my entire week. But then I also immediately thought about my 17 kids that I taught that. year in the classroom. And never once did I see a tube of sunscreen on the school campus. Despite the fact that the children were on the playground in the middle of the day and often even staying and in sports in the afternoon, no one was wearing sunscreen.

And to be clear, the vast majority of us are not wearing sunscreen all the time, right? This is just not part of our, it's not like brushing your teeth. Most people don't just don't do this. This is 2005 and you start to. think what? Like, hey, maybe I can figure out a way to get people to wear sunscreen all the time, not just at the beach. Was that what you were thinking like immediately? Yes. So I found this study by Memorial Sloan Kettering that was talking about how most people knew sunscreen prevents skin cancer, but I think it was like 70 percent don't wear it just like you said every single day. And the number one reason was because it didn't feel good on the skin.

And I think just being a child of two entrepreneurs and always thinking about creating and building and researching and this just was really interesting. I also think that I have always been a product person, which I think kind of goes back to being with my mother and often, you know, critiquing other art and talking about skin tones and colors and the composition of things being so important to the success of that. So I was thinking, why don't schools offer sunscreen? Why don't children have access to sunscreen in schools? And for me, I just took it to this extreme of like, gosh, we wouldn't send the kids on the playground without a fence around the playground. Yeah. But we're sending them out on the playground with a carcinogen above them. So the original idea you had was let me figure out how to get sunscreen into schools.

Like, you know, we've got like hand sanitizer dispensers. Yes. Like you would have those around schools and that would essentially be your business. Yes. And in part, I also knew the importance of education around this. And, you know, I was a teacher. And, you know, it's not really a, it wasn't a shortage of SPF products in the country that were causing the epidemic. It was a lack of education around the importance of wearing SPF every single day. So was your, this is 2005. Was your idea to find an existing sunscreen brand and then just get schools to put that into the hallways?

Was that, or did you already from the beginning think, I'm going to make a sunscreen? Well, so the first step was to what is out there. And I really wanted to look. I did not grow up wearing sunscreen every single day. So I was thinking, what is that product that I should have been wearing? And so I looked on the market. And like you said, in 2005, SPF was an incredibly sleepy category. And it was owned by the mass channels of distribution like Walgreens and Target and Walmart.

And what I found was that SPF was being promoted and marketed as an incredibly seasonal thing. And you couldn't actually even find SPF outside of May, June, or July. And when I did find it, I looked at the ingredients and found that, that 90% of what was on the market was just full of very controversial ingredients. What's an example of that? Well, so one of those that was often spotlighted was the ingredient oxybenzone, which was being found in breast cancer tissue. And what I also found is that every single chemical formula in the country relied on oxybenzone

for its efficacy. Even the organic brand? Well, so there were two types. types of formulas. There were the chemical formulas, which are those that absorb easily into the skin, and they're great for athletes. And then there's mineral formulas. And the mineral formulas, just to be clear, there's the ones that are like really white on your skin, like the zinc sort of sticks and stuff. They feel real thick and pasty on the skin. Yeah, sure. And essentially, you couldn't rub in the natural ones into your skin. And you're thinking, hey, why isn't there a natural one that they couldn't do that? Yes, I felt like there was such an opportunity to do both chemical formulas, which there are advantages to in a clean and healthy way. And mineral formulas, I felt, needed an upgrade too because they didn't need to feel so thick and pasty.

Because if there were options for people to wear sunscreen every single day that were beautiful and luxurious and felt great, then that would be that first step closer to stopping skin cancer. All right, I'm thinking, if I'm you, it's 2005, 2006, and I'm starting to kind of, you know, sounds like you're kind of following this idea and thinking there might be something there and you're obviously learning as much as you can about sunscreen. But when I've read the backs of like comparative brands that I think are pretty great, I don't understand any of the words. Were you, weren't you like looking at the backs of sunscreen bottles and like, what is this? And what, like, did you even know what, what those? things were? No, it was a lot of research, a lot of exploring. I found that there was a national sunscreen symposium, and I reached out to every chemist that was speaking at that event, and I just picked everybody's brain and just became obsessed with learning. You called them or you

emailed them and asked them what? You said, I'm Holly and I'm starting a sunscreen brand. Like, what was your pitch to them? Why would they give you the time? Well, fortunately for me, the chemist, all the response was very kind to me. And they taught me so much about ingredient decks. And most of those chemists were not up for the challenge of, the challenge that I gave was I'm interested in creating an SPF product that does not have oxybenzone, does not rely on paraben's propylene glycol, a handful of other ingredients that I just wasn't that fond of. And most of what I heard was it can't be done. It can't be done. They were saying you can't make a sunscreen. that is non-chemical that can be rubbed into skin?

They were saying that you can't make a sunscreen that will test to a high efficacious SPF number without the use of oxybenzone. And without the preservative system of a paraben, which is what keeps your product healthy and clean, it couldn't be done. So paraben's were needed. Why is sun? I had no idea that sunscreen was so complex. Well, I think what is so complicated is not necessarily having an efficacious sunscreen.

It's limiting yourself to a certain set of ingredients and then making it aesthetically so pleasing that it would make Guy Raz want to pick it up and put it on his skin every single day. Got it. Because now, if you ask me, like if you saw me on the beach in the summertime, you would think I was a zebra because I'd just have giant white stripes all over my face. Because I'm fine with that. I don't care. But you can't do that every day, right? You can do it. get away with that at the beach or if you're three years old. I remember like slathering on white zinc stuff on my kid's face, but you're saying you wanted to do something that you could use every day and you can't, you can't look like a zebra every day. Well, and the reason for that is that in my research, I learned that there's UVA rays and there's

UVB rays. And UVB rays caused that burning on your skin that changes the color of your skin. But UVA rays are not only aging, but they penetrate deeper into the sun. skin, the UVB, and they're present in all seasons, no matter what the weather is, even on a cloudy day, and their skin cancer causing. So you clearly are starting to develop an expertise on sunscreen, but like you're not picking cookies to bake. You can't do this alone.

You actually have to go and find somebody willing to make you a product that doesn't have the ingredients that you don't want it to have, but that. does what you wanted to do. Correct. That is the joke around our family is you had to do sunscreen, Holly, because it's very difficult to formulate. And so where do you go? I started with the first chemist that said, that's interesting. That's an interesting idea. I didn't realize that oxybenzone was so controversial. And he was willing to completely pro bono start working on a formula to see if we could rise to the challenge of creating something that felt great on the skin and was healthy and ingredient choices. And wait, who was this lab and where were they and how'd you get in touch

of them? Yeah, so through those conversations with chemists from the National Sunscreens Symposium is who I found that first chemist was in California and I'm in Texas and I think, you know, in a good way, a lot of chemists are a little nerdy and up for challenging things like that. And I just got lucky, too, I think. But how did you convince this chemist to make your prototype? I mean, putting on my hat as like an entrepreneur hat, right? And that's not enough for, I mean, you can't just call somebody up and say, have this mission.

I want to do it. And then the person says, okay, I'm going to devote all this time in my lab to working on building a prototype for you. Like, it had to have been harder than that. Maybe it wasn't. I don't know. You know, I think telling my story, my intention for this magic formula that we were going to create was to put it in every school across America. And so I, you know, sold that story of, gosh, we're going to create this.

And every child in the country is going to be wearing this game-changing SPF. And that is when, and the process of creating an SPF product takes a while. And once I had that kind of off and running with the right chemist who I felt was up for the challenge, I then sort of pivoted my time and attention to how are we going to do this in a beautiful way that's fun and playful and more of the marketing and education side of the business. And did you fly out to work with the chemist or were you just dealing with the person on the phone or the email or like how did that work? We had a lot of phone calls about what I felt like, you know, the characteristics of the texture, the feel. And then they started mailing FedEx. We did mailing samples and then I'd give feedback on those samples.

And I just kind of passed them around to my family and asked what they thought of this goop or that goop. You already knew you were going to call it goop. I did not. I just actually called it goop because I didn't know the word lab sample, I think. You know, I wasn't from the beauty industry. It's your glop. or whatever. It was goopy.

Yeah. Yeah. And in the meantime, what were you doing? I mean, in the meantime, you're living in Dallas still at the time? Mm-hmm. What were you doing? I was completely obsessed with this project. I pulled my sister, who's an excellent writer, into helping me create an educational curriculum.

You know, I mean, changing consumer behaviors, like one of the most difficult things to do, right? But I looked at campaigns like Lady Burr Johnson's Don't Be a litterbug when she was First Lady, she started that Don't Be a Litterbug campaign. Sure. And it wasn't necessarily the children that were throwing the Diet Coke's out the window, but it was their parents. And so I thought this is really interesting because through a very playful way, she's got the kids telling their parents not to be a litter bug,

which is going to ultimately change, you know, the parents' behavior. And so I thought if I could create this first formula and make it a fun and playful way that appealed to young children to then sort of bug the adults in their life. There was something there. So you've got this product that's being developed. And what are they making it with? I mean, if all these scientists were saying, hey, you got to use oxybenzone, that's the most effective way to protect your skin from UV rays

and there's no other way to do it, what, I mean, what? Yeah, actually what I learned was, oxybenzone is not the only way. It's the most inexpensive way. And again, going back to most SPF was a mass product and mass products are, you know, as inexpensive as possible. It turned out that there was a counterpart, Ava Benzone, that could help achieve the efficacy needed, but it just costs a little bit more. Ava Benzone. Ava Benzone. And that's still today what we've used in our chemical form.

And where does that come from? It's a raw ingredient that you buy from the people that make. I mean, there's different brand names like Parcel and that make that. So you managed to work with this lab entirely remotely? Like you never had to go and present to them or anything? They just kind of... I didn't have the money to go and promote. You know, I was bootstrapping this with my new husband,

and we were thinking about having a baby, and he was thinking actually about going out on him. his own at the time. He has a background and he was practiced law out of law school and he has a real entrepreneurial spirit as well. And so we were both bootstrapping all of the cost. All right. So you're going back and forth and you finally settle on what you think is right. And how do you know, like how did you know that they finally got it like the smell of it and the feel of it? Was it just just you were just using your own your own? judgment, your own instinct? You know, it was probably the 15th or 20th iteration on a formula that we

had tweaked many times over those two years that finally felt amazing on the skin and it tested because, right, it has to be efficacious. And it was then that I literally said, this is super. And the name immediately occurred to me that I had also, in that moment named the brand. Super goop. Super goop. And was it SPF 50, 15 or 30 or what? Yeah, it was a 50. It's a 50.

Which is exactly what we were aiming for. And so you get the, finally, you get the one that works. And would you like slather it on and go outside and just stand outside in the sun? I started wearing it every single day because I had to know over the long term if that was something that was actually a pleasant experience, right? And in fact, I've always believed in no animal testing or anything. So I often laughed and made my husband the guinea pig and say, hey, can you put some of this in your eyes and make sure it doesn't burn? Yeah. Had you by that point formed like an LLC and done all the formal stuff that people do to start a business?

Yeah, along the way, I definitely relied on my husband. He had, I mentioned, a background in law. and he helped me with registering the trademark and forming an LLC, kind of just put a few of the things that weren't too costly in place to start creating this business. So you've got the formula, you've got the name, and now it's time to go to the schools. And I'm assuming, you know, you kind of rip out your old playbook

where when you contacted the CEOs of companies to play the harp or you called all these scientists. I'm assuming you start calling school administrators. You're right. I've whipped out my playbook and started talking to the heads of schools and school boards. And I very quickly learned that as an over-the-counter drug, sunscreen is actually prohibited in schools across America. So you just spent two years building this prototype only to discover that you have no market.

No marketplace. Right. Wow. Your whole business model is down the tubes. Exactly. When we come back in just a moment, how Holly eventually pivots out of schools and into retail, and along the way hires a publicist that she cannot afford and makes a connection at Sephora that she cannot afford to lose. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it was 2007, and Holly Thaggered had a big problem. She'd built a sunscreen company Supergoop with the goal of getting SPF into schools. But at the time, most public schools did not allow students to use sunscreen without a prescription or a doctor's note. So Holly thought, well, maybe I should try the private schools, where the rules aren't as strict. And she actually made a bit of headway. I did. I launched five private schools. All in Dallas, the Dallas area?

No, Dallas and Louisiana, Baton Rouge, where I'm from. in Dallas. So how did you approach the schools? Did you just get like a directory or go online and just type? I did. I think I looked in the private school directories by city. And I would call and ask for a meeting. I've all, you know, dating back to sitting under my father's desk, reading and listening to Zig Zig Zigler tapes, which is what I did throughout my childhood.

Zig Zig Ziglar, was he used like that, like that guy who told you that, like, motivational speaker on. sale like for sales right yeah he was a sales and marketing genius i guru like he had these tapes in the 70s and 80s maybe is that right yes exactly i learned from zig so many things that i still referenced today you know you have to have so many knows before a yes and attitude is everything being optimistic and thinking positively and i mean i spent weekends sitting under my father's desk listening and absorbing these neatly organized tapes that he would bring home from having been president of the Sales and Marketing Club. And that really shaped how I approached things because, you know, those conversations with those schools, I just kept going, kept going. If one said no, I'd go to another one.

So school would say, no, no interest, and you would say, okay, well, thank you very much. And you'd move on. I'd move on, but I'd still keep them informed of everything I was doing. Because, you know, I also learned from those tapes that no is just tell me more, right? And so, you know, I'd hear no and I'd realize that maybe they're just going to say no for another month, and then they'll eventually say yes. So it's 2007. You've got this formula. You're in a couple of private schools, but that's not enough, presumably, to really sustain a business.

Right. And how were you dealing with finances? I mean, you had to get the product made from that. I'm assuming that lab was making the product for you. even for those five schools. Yes, they were making it in large pumps, and we were really just coming up with every which way we could financially pay for it. And how was that?

Well, I know our Amex was maxed out to the limit, which was like $30,000. It wasn't a huge number, but it was always about that. And I also convinced the people that were making this product that they needed to also, I didn't have a warehouse or anything, so I convinced them to warehouse it for me, and then let me pay as I pulled from the warehouse. And then, of course, I could also go play the harp. And, you know, anytime I started to get concerned about cash, I'd take a harp job and use that to pay for the product.

It was pretty messy, actually. We didn't keep real good track of the financials at that point because we were just still kind of testing this whole model. And you're right that that soon became, after one year of being in the school that year, it seemingly became hard to scale. And did you, I mean, I'm assuming you were not packaging these into small bottles with the branding and the logo. This was just like, or were you?

Not yet. They were still in 24-ounce containers. They did have our logo, which I'd created in Photoshop. And I sort of self-taught how to make a label and how to make a barcode. And the logo that you even have to this day, you created that in Photoshop? I did. And actually, the logo today, we just had a refresh on our brand about four months ago, actually, and tweaked a little bit here and there with my handwriting. I'm also obsessed with handwriting. And so we digitally used my handwriting to tweak the original logo. So you've got the product and you're trying to, you know, mount a campaign and to get people to know more about this. but it doesn't sound like you're really making a whole lot of traction.

The school's thing doesn't sound like it was really working. So how were you going to build this out into something bigger? Well, so I started just looking at what retail would look like and what is the world of prestige children's retail? And how do brands go into what I thought were some of the best storytell like F.A.O. Schwartz in New York or the now defunct Giggle was a very popular, very highly curated store of just the best of the best things from San Francisco to New York and started down this path of going to trade shows and showing my line to buyers of little prestige mom and pop

and retailers that could help support my vision and tell the story in their location across the country. Your husband was a lawyer, so he had some income, but were you, like, getting help from friends and family at this point? I mean, because still, like, right, you can't run the business on air, and were you asking people for help? Yeah, so my husband was not practicing law anymore. He was actually going out on his own in real estate investing. And so we were definitely depleting all of our savings. And it really wasn't until, I think, Thanksgiving of, gosh, 2008-ish that we asked my dad for $25,000, I think. So he kind of saved you?

He did. It was that, you know, every entrepreneur has the Thanksgiving dinner story. And I had another trade show I wanted to go to in Vegas. and I asked my dad at the dinner table, I think, like, if he'd be willing to give us $25,000. And that really forced this conversation of how are you planning to scale this? Because I think at this point, we were like literally making $45,000 in sales, I want to say, a year. And how are you going to scale this, Holly? Because even if you double-tripled your trade show at this trade show that you're, you're going to,

you want to go to, you know, that's still not much money. And did you need the money for that trade show to make product to bring to that trade show? No, I needed the money to actually pay for the trade show itself to like pay for the booth. Yeah. And I had at that point also received a phone call from the skincare buyer at Sephora. So wait, while all this other stuff is going on, uh, Sephora, which is like a huge beauty company, like retail company, they also reach out to you. Like how did the buyer even know about the product?

Well, she was a new mom and she had been shopping at Giggle, which was that little boutique retailer that I landed at one of my other trade shows. And she purchased it for her child and also took it to the Sephora corporate office. And they started passing it around and having this conversation apparently. What they shared with me was that they, felt most skin care today, and this was 2008-9, was really highly clinical and built on doctor-driven brands and not fun and playful. And they thought there was something really interesting about a brand that was very serious

in technology, but doing it in a very fun and playful spirit. So, all right. So Sephora calls you out of the blue. By the way, I think of this time you had your phone number on the bottle, right? Your personal cell number? Well, and that was so that if anybody wanted to talk about Supergoop, they would reach me directly. And she said, we like what you're doing. And we don't think that you're ready for a meeting, but we thought maybe we could be helpful.

And, you know, Sephora is known to really nurture indie brands and brands with strong founder visions. And she said, you know, I thought I would reach out and just share a few things that might be a good idea for you before, if you're interested in. us and then maybe you can get in touch when you feel that you've grown up a little bit. And by the way, what was her name? Kim Holt. And what did Kim suggest you do? She said you need press. She said you need, if you want to get into Sephora, you got to start with getting some more press.

Yes. So in 2008, you know, this is before Instagram and influencer marketing. And it was all really about those press placements that you'd get in the magazine that showed your product. They were very product driven, and that's what sold product in Sephora. So I had none of that. So what did you do? Well, so that 25,000 that my dad, the next day, left our home after Thanksgiving, and he left a check on the counter, and he said to me, Holly, go get your elephant.

And that was his way of saying, stop messing with all these small little retailers and go get a big account. and so I went to Vegas and we put that booth together. But what I found when I got to Vegas was just like I could have cried. I had really fought to be in the natural and organic and very thoughtfully curated selections of the show. But what I found was I was smack dab in the middle of all of the granola and very homegrown brands and all of the very cool, modern, beautifully aesthetic brands were up on the second floor. And the lady in the booth right next to me had a brand called Happy Green Bee, and she spent the whole show all five days knitting.

And the show was so slow that I spent most of my time in her booth learning to knit. I thought you were going to tell me about how you found a publicist. Did you find them at the show? Well, kind of. The last day, when everyone was doing, breaking apart their booths and everything. I was, you know, walking around and someone came up to me and said, gosh, you've really gotten to be good buddies with Roxanne. And I said, oh, I know, you know, we had way too much time to talk during this show, not enough sales. And they said, well, I would imagine

she could really help you. And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, you know who that is, Holly? It's Roxanne Quimby, the founder of Bert Spees. Oh, you saw Roxanne Quimby, who has been on our show? We've had on our show. She's amazing. So you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, Did you go up to her? Yeah. So I went right back over there and I was like, Roxanne, how could you not tell me that you were the, you were Roxanne Quimby, the founder of Bert's Bees? She's super low-key. Super low-key.

And she said, Holly, I wanted to hear your story and your vision without you knowing that. So then what? I mean, do you like exchange numbers, emails you go for coffee? What do you do? No, it's the last day of the show. She said very quickly, how can I help you? I want to help. I like what you're doing.

And I said, I need a PR firm in New York, and I can't get one to save my life. And? And an hour later, Nancy Berman was calling me while I was in a cab to the airport. And Nancy is the founder of Berman Communications, which was known as the biggest beauty PR firm in New York. And she said, I just got off the phone with Roxanne Quimby. And she says, I need to fly to Texas to meet you. She says, I got to fly to Texas to meet you. doing 45,000 bucks a year in sales.

Yeah. And this is like a big shot PR person. Yep. And you're like, great, let's do it. No, actually, I immediately kicked into, well, she needs to know there's competition because I know this is going to cost me an arm and a leg. And so I said, well, actually, I'm going to be in New York next week interviewing several other PR firms, and I'd love to schedule you in.

Wow. Which was totally made up on the fly. Nice. Okay, so then you, like you fly to New York? So, well, then I grabbed my sister, my brother, my husband. You know, the company was still just me. So I had to put people in the room to look like we were doing something bigger than we were. And I did, in fact, get several other PR meetings with quite a few of her competitors

based on being able to call and saying, I'm coming to New York to sit down with Nancy Berman next week. And I'd like to also, I hear I should also be talking with your firm. Huh. So Nancy, presumably you end up working with Nancy. She did. She rolled out the red carpet and I was very impressed with, we were all very impressed with her pitch. But given that you only had 45,000 revenue for the year, which is not profit, how much

did Nancy cost you to bring her on? Well, that was the hard part because when it got to be the last page of her proposal was where we started talking about money and knowing that the world of PR wasn't going to talk about SPF outside of the summer months, she pitched me on a six-month contract that would go from January to June. And she felt in that time we could in January hit the long leads to make sure we were in the April-May books. And she would charge us $12,000 a month, but only six months out of the 12. So $72,000. And you thought, I think I might have said, have you been listening to everything that I've been talking about because I'm trying to deseasnalize a category and it's never

going to happen if I'm only talking to the beauty editors. And I think, you know, everybody's going, oh my gosh, she's trying to like convince now Nancy to take a 12 month retainer. And I always credit my husband for this because that sounds crazy to pay 12 months of a retainer when we weren't even making in revenue. But he was adamant about you've got to do this, Holly. This is your path to Sephora and that's your elephant and we will figure out how to pay for this. So you were going to basically you decide we're going to get the best publicist because this is our one, this is our moonshot here. It's going to cost us two years of our revenue to get this publicist. And you, you basically take the plunge. And I think she came down to about $8,000 a month because it was a

12 month retainer. Right. When you signed on with her, where did, where was she able to place stories about Supergoop. In all the beauty magazines. So allure and, you know, just the traditional press. And did that move the needle? Did you start to get a lot of, a lot of people inquiring? We did. And we also got, that helped a lot with the launch in Barney's, New York, which Nancy

set up an interview with the beauty buyer of Barney's. And she actually was a skin cancer survivor. So she really, a pretty, and very fair skin. Her name is Bettina O'Neill, and she bought into the idea of building a skincare brand with a foundation in SPF. And Barney's, certainly at that time, was really important, a really influential place to be. Yeah, we launched in their apothecary, and there are things that came from that that were super inspiring along the way, like being asked to, I know we got a call once from Elon Musk's team to put Supergoop into all of his roadstriary. that were taking a press tour down the BCH or something. And I thought, you know, gosh, if Super Goop makes sense because the Roadster was a convertible,

you know, could be in every cup holder. Yeah. A lot of cool people would see it. I think that's the year that we also were asked to join the TED conference in Long Beach and put our products into the hands of all the attendees. And that's, and by the way, they don't pay you for that. You've got to donate that. That was 100% donation.

And I had to create a custom. box because I wanted my story to be on the box because I knew that if it weren't, nobody would know what the meaning behind the product was. So I really kind of went out on a limb there. Yeah. And at what point do you feel comfortable to reach back out to Sephora and say, hey, look, you know, we've been, we've gotten in a couple of magazines and we're getting a little bit more publicity? Because I'm assuming you're still not really profitable at this point. No. No, we're not. This was in a couple of years. after that press and growing. And my revenue went from 45 to, I know, 150 to I think 600.

So we were, you know, we were increasing in growing the business. It was by no means profitable. And I don't think I was even keeping quite good track of the finances like that. I just knew I had to keep going. And it was actually in 2010 when I felt like I was ready to talk again to Sephora. You called the same person who originally called you? I called her and left her a voicemail and told her that I was going to be in San Francisco the following week. I gave her a five or six-day range because I wanted to make sure that she could find a minute for me on her calendar. And she didn't call me back. And so how did you get her attention?

Well, so I felt obligated to go to San Francisco, because I said on her voicemail that I was going to be there on other business. And I was afraid that she might eventually call during that week. And then if I weren't in San Francisco, she'd be calling me out. And I didn't even have a hotel reserved when I got on the plane to go there. I just knew that I had to be there. And I cried the whole way there and found a shoebox of a hotel in Union Square that I remember going in and it didn't even have windows.

and the bathroom was down the hall. And I was so upset because we didn't have a lot of money. And this was an expensive thing for me to go do when I didn't really have anything to do there. Does she call you back? So I went to bed that night. And at 1130, my cell phone lit up. And it said Sephora on it. And that's how I had programmed her name into my phone was as Sephora.

Wow. And I don't know why she was up late at the office that night. but she said, I think you might be in San Francisco. And she said, well, we would love to meet with you. Are you available tomorrow morning at 10 a.m.? Amazing. So you go to Sephora headquarters. And did you have a bunch of product with you, like samples?

Oh, I was so prepared. I had foam boards with each of my products, the pricing, you know, and I had product with me. And they just said, tell me about what you're trying to do here. And I walked them through my story from, teacher to to where we are today and why I needed their help and why I felt like they could help put a megaphone to this message. And did they say, all right, we're in. We will work with you. They did not. They just, they just said, we enjoyed meeting you. I thought the meeting went really

well. It lasted, you know, a good hour and a half. And I felt pretty good about the potential. And they said they would be in touch. And that was it. Yeah, and I got to go home early. So you go back in the plane. I'm assuming on the way back, you were not crying. Well, actually, I, the next morning, woke up. And, you know, my father growing up had this thing about doing things in twos. And he always said to me, the best time to accomplish something is after you've accomplished something. You're on a high.

You feel optimistic. You feel good about yourself. And so whenever I had done something well, he would say, that's awesome, Holly. That's so great. I'm great to hear it. Now what are you going to do? And so I felt like that next morning I had to figure out what the answer to like I felt really good. You're right. I wasn't crying. But I felt like I had to know what was next.

Yeah. I mean, you must have been feeling pretty confident because I think like maybe even the same day you decided to reach out to the buyer of Nordstrom too, right? Yeah. So I said that I was in San Francisco talking with Sephora about a spring 2011 launch. Which was not totally true, really. Yeah, no, I, you were kind of bluffing, bluffing, hoping, willing it to be true. Yes, okay. And I would love to come through Orange County on the way back to Texas and share with her more about my brand. And was she in? She sounded really interested and optimistic.

Again, she didn't give me any answers, you know, Johnny on the spot, but she sounded interested. And I felt good about flying home. and then doing the follow-up that was needed to land both of these accounts. And I feel like that was a real important for me was when I think about where I saw our brand, I felt like, so the Sephora demographic, the customer was young, and they were playing with makeup. They needed to understand how important it was to first protect their skin. And for the Nordstrom customer, I felt like that was the mom with three kids in tow and a stroller.

and she really needed to be instrumental in teaching young children these healthy habits. So I felt like the two brands were the ideal launch pad for me in the country together. But how do you get into them? What convinces Sifor to finally call you and say, okay, we'll do it. And then, of course, you know, what kind of shelf space are going to get and how long? So what was the deal they offered you? Yeah. So, well, and to back up a little bit, I got home and for several weeks didn't, you know, I sent my follow-up email,

my, you know, exactly as I should have post a meeting, but I didn't hear from either of them. Oh, wow. Nothing. Not even like a great to meet you? No, not, nothing. Like the silent treatment for six weeks? For the rest of that year, actually. Oh, God.

And so that's when my husband and I were kind of tapped out on the money side. And we went to my brother, who, after graduating SMU, moved to New York, started a business and has been super successful. building it to several hundred people with his partners. And we asked him if he would be interested in investing. And he agreed. And he agreed. He said, you know, Holly, I think if he were here today on the podcast, he'd probably say, you know, I was betting on the jockey, not the horse. And he put in initially $750,000.

Wow. So you're assuming that in March of 2011, you're going to do a nationwide launch somewhere, but you don't have any commitments, I guess, from Sephora or Nordstrom. So when do they call or when does Sephora call? January 26th. And I know the date because it's my brother's birthday. They called you on the 26th. They called me on the 26th.

And it was actually... 2011. Well, and she called and said, Holly, it's Kim. And I'm super excited to share that we are going to prepare for a summer launch in all stores and a big in cap for the 12 weeks of summer. So good news because Sephora is going to launch, but only 12 weeks and only in the summer, which kind of undermines your whole narrative,

because you're not selling a summer product. Exactly. So what'd you say? I said, you know, as flattering as this is, and I'm super excited and want this badly, I need to scale my size down to whatever size makes sense that you can assure me 12 months of distribution. You're talking about the size of the size.

bottle? The size of the space on the shelf. On the shelf. Yes. I don't, an in-cap is that big fancy thing at the end of the aisle where you have five shelves and it's full of products. And I didn't expect that they would hold that for a 12-month period. So I convinced them. And this is how I really knew that Sephora was the right partner for me. They listened. And they said, you know, let us take this back and think about how we could do this and assure you 12 months of distribution, which I also didn't know that that's kind of crazy. Really, retailers don't launch with any guaranteed one year of distribution. Right. And how

much shelf space do they offer you? So they later called and said they were excited to share that they were going to open a new wall in Sephora called Skin Care Favorites, and they have secured six inches of space and to pick my two favorite products. And is that pretty good? good? Because I'm thinking six inches, my God, there's nothing in a big store. But is that, is that, were you happy with that? I was ecstatic. This sounded like a dream. It sounded like something that I could manage. Again, I didn't have a team. I didn't have a marketing team. I didn't have people in the stores to help sell it. I felt like that was positioning us in the skincare category, which is how I've always seen our brand as not a sunscreen brand. We are a true

skin care, but all about protection. And that's our thing. So I was just thrilled. So summer of 2011, you debut at Sephora? Yes, and I had nurtured the Nordstrom relationship along the way and keeping in touch. And we launched in 47 stores. So I had full distribution in Sephora and 47 Nordstroms and a lot of work to do. Right, because you still, even if you're in Sephora or Nordstrom, it doesn't mean people are going to go to your product and buy it. You've got to explain, you've got to get them to buy it. So how did you do that?

Exactly. Well, because of that 12 months of distribution, I think that really shaped how I thought about product. I've always thought about innovation in SPF and how do I create products that are game-changing that you will reach for in those shoulder seasons. And I had created these sunscreen swipes that were a way to reapply your SPF in a tallette. And they were, at the time, pretty new to the world. And I didn't really realize it at the time because I didn't know what success meant. at Sephora, but I would go around to stores during that period, and the swipes were always gone.

They were just wiped out of the, off the shelf. Yeah, what explained that? Apparently, you know, the swipes were a huge hit, and the world loved them, and the problem was, I knew that my sales couldn't be great if there were no products on the shelf. And so I started what I, like later coined within my family as reverse stealing, but I didn't know how to get product to the shelves and I knew I couldn't make the numbers if there weren't products. So I'd go into as many stores as I could with swipes in my bag and literally like stock the shelves. Like I'd give them product. Wow. Which is crazy, right? Wow. I love that story.

By the way, I've never told that story. It just popped in my head, which is so crazy. But like, I literally remember going into stores and pushing products onto the store shelves. All right. So you are, You're now in these brands. By the way, was there an immediate or fairly quick impact on your revenue? I mean, you've gone from what? 150 went to like 600. In that year, in 2011. Wow.

So that was, and then what about 2012? We kept doubling. We've been doubling and sometimes more than that since. So 2012, you pass a million dollars in sales. Yes. Did it now start to become easier to raise money outside? Because up until this point, it was just family. is your dad, your brother, you and your husband.

Yeah. Now, to scale, I'm imagining you wanted to go out and raise more money because it costs money. You got to make the product. You got to make the bottles and distribution's expensive. Or did you say, you know, we're just, we're not going to raise money. We're going to self-fund this thing. No, no. And I've always known, you know, when you have this vision to change the way the world thinks

about sunscreen, scaling is super important. And also, I'm dealing with a category where we actually have to convince people why they need to wear SPF and then why Supergoop. So, you know, I often say, like, imagine I was having lunch with the founders of MZ Wallace, which is a handbag brand. And I said, you know, imagine if you had to convince women everywhere to carry a bag with them everywhere with their water bottle and their wallet and their purse and their phone and their umbrella. Yeah. You don't. You just have to sell them on your bags. But for me, I've always looked at it. Like, I have to convince first people why it's so important that they protect their skin. And then, second,

secondary to that is why Supergoop. So yes, it's been very expensive from a marketing perspective. And I was still not profitable at that point. So raising money was something that was just a necessary thing that we had to do. Yeah. And so I guess you were eventually able to raise like $2 million from a combination of friends and family and even some private investors and people in the medical field. And I should mention tennis star Maria Sharapova. how did that happen yeah so that was just a phone call from her agent that said i'm maria sheripova's agent and i'm like googling maria sherpova and seeing what's in the word sunscreen and she said she found your product at sephora and it's the only product she can compete in wow and it doesn't burn her eyes and so she's interested if you guys or have ever thought about making an investment and actually this was a just about the same time as our friends and family was still open and And I thought the first thing I need to do is get to L.A. to meet her because, of course, if we're going to have an investor come into the brand, she's becoming part of our family. And so I want to

make sure she could also be a brand ambassador or spokesperson, presumably. Yeah. So we flew out there and spent a day visiting with she and her agent and, you know, honestly put the deal together really quickly. Wow. Holly, as you grew, and today I think that the latest public numbers have found are that you did like 40 million in revenue in 2018 and maybe more in 2019, I'm assuming. But at a certain point, you decide to open up a New York office. You were based in San Antonio. You've got a New York office. You hired a president to more or less to run the company. And from what I understand, like this was sort of a request from your investors. You're like, hey, Holly, you're great. You're really good at what you do, but like you need an operations person. That's not your strength.

Was that, is that true? Is that how it went down? Yeah, you know, so we had our series A followed our friends and family. And one of the former partners at TSG, John Kenny, was going off on his own to create what is now cult capital. And he asked to lead our series A round. And he said, Holly, what is it you want to do for this next phase of Supergoop? And I said, John, I want to build a team. I want help. I want a presence in New York City. And we decided together that it was time to go on that search for a brand president who could be the perfect integrator for my vision. And she's been now with us for four years. And this is Amanda Baldwin, right? Yes. And having had Amanda to help was a real turning point for me. in realizing the time to put our foot on the gas and build the team that we needed to take this and make the magic of Supergroup happen.

So let's talk about this moment now. No one is going into Sephora. Presumly most Sephora's are closed, if not all of them. Nordstroms are closed. And who knows when they're going to open up. Some may open. But, I mean, I have to assume that, you know, you've got direct-to-consumer. You can buy Supergroup online.

But I've got to assume that, like, probably 90s, 99.9% of businesses you've taken a hit in recent weeks. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think definitely we had to set reset, but I think what's been really neat is we're having real breakout conversations. In fact, this week we launched Sephora Canada and I trained over Zoom 350 of the cast members in Canada. Oh, wow. Wow. We're still there and you mentioned direct to consumer is still very, very strong. We, in fact, relaunched our supergroup.com platform yesterday. And this time has given us all a minute to really focus on these things

and how business in general is being impacted by what's going on. Are you, I mean, obviously, we've done a lot of companies that are cash-intensive companies and that don't have 90, 180 days of cash sitting around. And they might have 45 days of cash sitting around. And a lot of those businesses won't be able to make it, even with, you know, investors and so on. I have to assume that your business is a little bit different. For one thing, you're making a product that is relatively shelf stable and it's not as cash intensive, or am I wrong? Well, fortunately, 2019 for Supergoop was our year to get to profitability and double-digit profitability this year.

So having Amanda, a brand president and a husband and a brother that's all very strong in finance, We have, you know, remodeled the entire year to remain profitable and continue pushing and even spending money. Do you think that what's happened to you and the success of the company is because of your skill and work ethic, or do you think more of it has to do with luck? I think it's a little bit of both, Guy. You know, if I think back, was it a skill that positioned me next to Roxanne Quimby in Vegas? No, but it was very strategic in that I was telling my story to everybody that would listen. And same is true with my launch at Sephora, because gosh, I was lucky the skincare buyer that year happened to be pregnant and shopping and giggle.

But, you know, I put my number on the carton, and so anybody could reach me, and that was strategic. This is something you mentioned earlier, but I want to ask you that this again, what do you think, How do you think being a musician playing the harp helped you be an entrepreneur? I think being a musician has really helped me in just learning those how to break it down. And you can be overwhelmed if you open a picture opening a piece of sheet music and there's just notes everywhere and staff and it can look very jumbled and like how in the world am I ever going to learn this whole song. But what you learn in music is to break it down and learn the first measure, learn the right hand, then learn the left, and then put the right and the left together. And then once you've mastered that, go on to the second measure. And if you continue to break it down like that, you eventually have a beautiful song.

And I think also, though, for me, because I started performing at such a young age, it gave me so much confidence. And if you think about, you know, playing, here comes the bride to a church that's full of, people that are everyone's dead silent and you are the music. You're the only thing that anyone's listening to. And this is this bride's biggest day of her life. It really gives you the confidence to think you can do anything. And that helps me and has over the years as we've been fundraising. And you've got to be completely confident to walk into any scenario and pitch your brand and sell them on evaluation that you believe in. And I think music really is what gave me that.

That's Holly Thaggart, founder of Supergoop. By the way, Holly has come full circle with her original idea of getting sunscreen into schools. Since she got her start, a bunch of states have changed their laws and now allow kids to use sunscreen in schools without a prescription. So Supergoop has started a program where they give it out for free. In this past school year, they donated 3,000 pumps of Supergroup to schools across the country. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to write us, it's hibt at npr.org. If you want to tweet at us, it's at How I Built This or at Guy Raz. This episode was produced by James Delahousie with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. Thanks also to Candice Lim, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.