How I Built This with Guy Raz - The Laundress: Lindsey Boyd

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

In the late 1990s, while working in high-end fashion in NYC, Lindsey Boyd came to despise the weekly ritual of dry-cleaning; not only was it expensive, but it often did damage to her clothes. So she and college friend Gwen Whiting studied up on the science of dirty laundry to create The Laundress: a line of eco-friendly detergents gentle enough to be used at home on "dry-clean only" items like cashmere and silk. For years, the company operated on credit cards and faced hurdles like snoozing investors and counterfeiters. But The Laundress grew a loyal following, and in 2019, it was sold to Unilever for a reported $100 million. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It had tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hey there, it's Guy here. And really quick before we start this brand new episode of the show, how I built this isn't just a podcast, but also a book. A book filled with stories and lessons from some of the world.

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they built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today how two friends looked at a mountain of dirty laundry and saw a hole in the market and how that turned into the laundress, a lot of of detergents they sold for a reported $100 million. A lot of people ask me to name the single thing that most entrepreneurs have in common. There's resilience, the ability to withstand rejection, unshakable optimism. You get my drift. But a much, much simpler example is that most of them? Before they started?

Had day jobs. A desk, a phone, a boss, coworkers. And in a lot of cases, that day job was what inspired the business that they would come to be known for. Sadie Lincoln worked at 24-hour fitness for nearly a decade before she left to start her own fitness brand, Bar 3. Alex Bloomberg was a public radio producer for nearly 15 years before he left to found his own podcast company, Gimlet. Janice Bryant-Hawroyd got a job temping as a secretary in L.A. in L.A. in the the late 1970s and eventually started her own employment agency called Act 1. For Lindsay Boyd, it was a marketing job in fashion, first for Brooks Brothers and then for

Chanel that inspired her business, but not a fashion brand, even though, as you will hear, she did briefly have her own line of T-shirts. But instead, Lindsay's work in the fashion industry exposed her to a jaw-dropping amount of dry cleaning. This was in the early 2000. This was in the early 2000s, and it occurred to her that many of the solvents and chemicals used in dry cleaning were really bad for those delicate outfits. And that's where she thought there might be an opportunity. So for two years, she and her college friend Gwen Whiting dove into the science of dirty laundry, a quest that would lead them to develop a line of eco-friendly detergents that would eliminate the need to go to the dry cleaner. And in 2004, they launched.

the laundress, a brand that now sells dozens of laundry products and accessories and has stores and customers around the world. But for the first six years, as you will hear, they struggled to make a profit and even to keep the business afloat. They eventually did, of course, and in 2019, the laundress was purchased by Unilever, reportedly, for $100 million. But long before she became an eco-cleaning mogul, Lindsay. thought about becoming a biologist. She grew up in New York's Hudson Valley, and when it came time for college, she decided to major in marine biology at the College of Charleston in South Carolina. But I realized that while I loved science, it wasn't really the ultimate thing for me.

I couldn't see myself doing that as a career. In the very beginning of my sophomore year, I said, I can't stay here. You know, this is not for me. I was taking, extracurricular activities at night in fashion. And then my childhood friend was at Cornell University at the textile program. And she said, you should come here. You should look at this program. You would love it. So I went to visit her and that was it. I mean, I fell in love with the program. I fell in love with the school. And I had the grades and I got in. So you went to Cornell to study textiles. Exactly. What were you? you learning? Were you learning about the business of apparel or the science of textiles or both?

Both, yeah. We were learning about, we were in a lab burning different fibers and finding out what the reaction was and different chemicals and understanding the chemical makeup of what cellulose is and cotton fibers and really the scientific side of it. And then the other quarter, were around retail math and how to, you know, for more of a business side of it. I also did an independent study in color theory and then art history and sort of fashion history too. So understanding trends and forecasting. So it was a mix of everything that you would need to know to set yourself up if you, you know, if you want to go into more the scientific side of it or the business side or design. And when you were at college, I guess,

You met a person who will eventually feature in the story, Gwen Whiting. She was also in the program studying apparel and textiles. Exactly. Exactly. She was majoring in the design side of it. And were you like in the same dorm or you just kind of met and became friends? Yeah, actually, the childhood friend I was speaking about before, she was friends with her, with Gwen. So at that point we became friends and met and that was it.

I mean, there was no talk about doing a business in college or anything of that nature. And I should mention we're going to hear about Gwen a little later on. But after college, I guess you went off and did a bunch of different things. And what was your first job out of college? My first job was at Brooks Brothers. Oh, right. I was in product development in the high-end men's division. I like being hands-on.

so I got to meet with the seamstress and then talk about textiles and got to go to all of the fabric mills and then price the collection. It was so much fun. I had the best time. So you were at Brooks Brothers for about two years, I guess, and you get a job with Chanel. Yes. Chanel. No introduction needed. Yeah.

Did they, did you apply for it? Did they recruit you? I found an ad in Women's Wear Daily. Wow. I think it's like one of the few times they put an ad in. And I read that that was my paper. And I didn't know anyone there. I just sent in my resume and called them and called them and called them.

And then I got the job. As what? As a junior account executive in Ready to Wear. And working in New York City? Yes, working in New York City on Fifth Avenue above the boutique. This is going to be a super dumb question, and I'm super embarrassed to ask this because, like, I've been, you know, in media and journalism for more than 23 years. But I did not realize until I was doing prep for this interview. I'm so, I'm just going to say this outright and be transparent with everyone listening.

I just thought Chanel made bags and perfumes and sunglasses. I didn't know they made clothes. That's okay. I'm sure you're not the only one. Yeah, but they make, like, coats and dresses. I mean, I design. Yeah, expensive, very expensive stuff. Yes.

And what does it mean to be? a junior account executive in sales at Chanel? What do you actually do? So what we did was we did a ton of trunk shows. And what trunk shows are are you basically schlep around a trunk of samples to different department stores and meet with customers that are coming to that store. And you sell the collection based on samples. You do pre-orders.

So we did a ton of traveling. I think I was in a different place probably every two weeks doing that. And you would show up with a trunk full of different sizes of different apparel and whoever showed up could buy them and maybe get like a deal on it. Well, not exactly. So we would show up with one size of the sample. It was a sample and the sample represented the size of the model war during the runway show or, you know, the show in which it was represented in France. So we would set up a rack of clothing and then we'd take orders. And that was a big majority of what I did.

So I had a lot of interaction with customers. I really enjoyed that. And we went to France. We got to go to all of the fashion shows. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. So pretty cool life and learning about this kind of brand. And I read that like, you know, you're doing This job of Chanel, and you're kind of focused on it, but you still, you had like little side hustles.

Like you had like a couple little businesses, like a hat box business. And then you started a T-shirt brand. Like, what, tell me about that. What was that? So I always had businesses on the side. I like to paint. And my mom had bought these boxes. They were cardboard, recyclable boxes. and they were called hat boxes, but I used them as storage boxes. And I was painting them, and friends of mine were saying they wanted them, and I thought, oh, I should sell them. And so I did my own, I created my own website.

I learned HTML, like kind of website building for dummies. I bought the website domain, sassystorage.com, and started selling them online out of my apartment. And I did that for a little while, and then I realized I didn't really know, what I was doing. So I moved on. The hat box business wasn't booming. The hat box business was not booming. No. Got it. All right. So you know that this is not, Sassy storage was not going to be the thing. No, it was not moving the needle for me. Unless you had the royal family as your customers.

That is correct. I had to move to the UK. So what was the next business you came up with? So a friend of mine, we were tied on. It was a t-shirt business called Jessica Lindsay. Her name was Jessica. Obviously, the other part is pretty obvious. Lindsay, yeah. Yes. And we were making tie-dye t-shirts.

We were just tie-dying t-shirts, and people want to know where the t-shirt came from, and we were like, we made them in our bathroom. And but were, were they just, like, tie-dye t-shirts that many of us listening? They were Haynes tank tops. Just Haynes T-shirts? You took rubber bands and tied-d-d-and. Like, we learned at camp when we were kids?

Yeah. What was so special about them? We had an embellishment, like I'm blanking on the name of what it's called. We had a machine, like a grommet machine. Oh, and you could put like gems and stuff? We were putting studs. Yes, we were doing rhinestones and studs around the collar to add a little beda- A little pizzling them.

Yeah, I got you. Okay. I love this. So we, yeah, so that was the main. differentiator from the regular Haynes tie-dye t-shirts. Right. This is like the summer in the summertime of like 2000, 2001, 2002. Yep.

In 2000. What were you selling the shirts for, by the way? It depends on who we were selling it too. Yeah, of course. But ultimately, Saksvith Avenue and Henry Bendell bought them and they were... Wait, sorry. Wait. People are asking you about your tie-dye shirt that you made in your bathroom.

Then you're selling them to Saksvith Avenue and Henry Bendell. There must be something that happened in between. Absolutely. We, I think we were selling them. We were selling them for basically nothing. We were selling them for like $25 or something to friends and people that wanted them because it wasn't really about that for us. We were just, I mean, it's some petty cash, but not. Yeah. We weren't quitting our day jobs. Let's put it that way. We saw this demand, me being in sales and she was also, she was actually in, in magazine, working for magazines. So we, this is your friend. Jessica. Yeah. And we actually, we have an article that Time Out Magazine did on our t-shirts.

Wow. That she helped secure that, yeah. And we saw the trend in the contemporary floors where people were, this is when James Pierce T-shirts were coming out and $100 T-shirts were popular. So we called on a few boutiques where we knew people. And how many would they buy? Like when you went to these buyers, would they say, yeah, we'll order 100 or 50. year. I mean, you were still making them with grommet, a gromm machine in your apartment? Yes, in the basement of my friend's apartment. We were grommeting. My hand had like blisters on them from pressing the machine. And did they ask you, because you were doing a day job and you were working on this in the weekend, I guess. And did they ask you? Like, I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the sackspire. Were they like, so tell me a little bit about your supply chain or, you know, where you get your t-shirts? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

They were like, great, we'll take 50? Yes. And what did they price them at? They priced them around $80. Wow. Yeah, and we shifted our quality from Haynes to American Apparel. Yeah. So we were buying them at wholesale in the Garment District and downtown and just buying them by the bundles.

And we didn't have any space for the boxes that came for our sax order that was like 550 shirts or some insane amount. Wow. And we kind of looked around and we're like, wow, we're really in over our head here. You guys are a real business. And this is called Jessica Lindsay, the brand, right? Yes, Jessica Lindsay, yes. I mean, when you were working at Chanel as an account executive, were other people, your colleagues, have been like, Lindsay, I was just at Sacks.

I saw your T-shirts. It's so cool that you're selling to Sacks. Well, it was something that I was very open about doing on my first. free time. Yeah. And nothing that anyone ever questioned because we worked our butts off at Chanel. So it wasn't as if, you know, it was literally weekends. That was it.

And that's something that obviously parlays really well into the laundress because we knew that, you know, you have to work in your free time whenever you can, yeah, to make it happen. All right. Here, no, okay. So you've got this successful brand selling it some big name. I mean, Sacks, Bendel, I'm thinking, if I'm you at that time, I'm thinking, this is big. This has huge potential.

This is going to be a huge brand. Why doesn't Jessica Lindsay exist anymore today? What happened? You know, it was one of those things where you need a lot of financing for fashion. And it wasn't something that it was, well, something we loved and knew. It wasn't ultimately something that we were able to take to the next. next step. So you just kind of, it just kind of fizzled out. It wasn't, because if I'm hanging out with you at that time, I would hope, I would say, Lindsay, this is amazing. Like, you can really,

you've already done a lot of the hard stuff, but actually that's not true because the hard stuff is taking it to scale and really building it out. Because you financing and capital and infrastructure. And we were, we were really loose about how we were doing the business at the time. We, know, it was a hobby and then it became, before we knew it, we had these sacks. It was almost like a challenge. I don't, you know, I think timing is really important. And the timing just wasn't right. I'm assuming you didn't really make a whole lot of money out of it in the end. Not at all, no. Did you, I mean, this to me seems like a really cool experience, right, in so many ways, because in some ways, it showed you that you could actually start something and gain some traction.

Absolutely. I knew that no matter what I do, I'm going to do it 100%. So that definitely helped gain confidence. That definitely solidified that I needed to do something on my own, especially when my career in fashion was like this industry that I was in was so specific. high fashion, a couture fashion, very few jobs available. So I looked around and thought, my boss isn't going anywhere. My boss's boss isn't going anywhere. And these are coveted jobs.

And there's no reason why they would go anywhere. And there was no place for me to go. Like I had hit the, I was managing my department. And I had sort of like the highest role that I could possibly. have there without taking someone else's job. And I just, I wanted more. I wasn't satisfied. Yeah. Meantime, your friend Gwen Whiting, that you meet in college, is she living in New York, too, at the time? She was in London, and then she ultimately came back to the city to work for Ralph Lauren. Got it. And were you guys hanging out? All the time. And so did you start to think, I mean,

when did you start to think first, not about the business you would eventually do, but just about maybe, maybe starting a business. Do you remember some of the ideas you had in your mind? Yeah, I mean, Gwen and I both wanted to start a business together. And so that's when we started getting, we started thinking together and coming up with ideas of what to do. We had a fashion brand idea. But then we kind of, you know, fashion is tough because it's tough to chase the trends. It's tough to, you need a lot of capital for production. And we put that aside. We thought, you know what, we like fashion, but I don't think that this is, you know, this is, this is not the idea. This is not the long-term thing for us. And then we looked into beauty and we had a beauty idea.

We went, we actually went to manufacturers and- Like lotions or cosmetics? Cosmetics, cosmetics, lipstick and blush and things like that. And we had some samples, made. We met with manufacturers. We came up with colors. Wow. So you really kind of grinding through different ideas. Yeah. I mean, it was fun for us, you know, and I think that's... Gwen was, by the way, living in New York by this point? She was in New York. We were actually, at one point, we were squatting together in our friends' apartment and watching reruns of Seinfeld every night with like this horrible tacky poster on one piece of

artwork. It was a poster on our wall. I remember we put sweaters in our oven. Like we were, you know, typical 20-something with not a lot of money in an apartment in New York City. What was the poster? It was of this Olympic skier. It was an Olympic skier. Yeah. We got it free. But it sounds to me that like both of you had a real design aesthetic. Like we could, we could maybe design something that's really great, really nice. Yeah. We were both very creative. And, both working at very strong brands, which obviously had an impact on our brand. And we ultimately came up with the laundress out of a need and a void that we saw, like a need that we had and a void we saw in the market.

The concept of doing laundry was nothing that I ever thought I would get into, but the concept of the brand and the product ultimately made a lot of sense. How did that idea even come to you? Like while you guys are kind of grinding through maybe an apparel brand, maybe like a fashion brand, maybe cosmetics. How did this idea of coming up with detergents or laundry cleaning? Was that your first idea to come up with detergents or was it to actually have like a store? Yeah, the first idea was a service, brick and mortar store. At the time, I was spending a ton of money on my dry cleaning.

And Gwen was taking the train to New Jersey to do her laundry at our mom's house because we didn't trust anyone to do the laundry. You know, we had to do it ourselves. I was hand washing in my sink. And by the way, I'm assuming you got really good deals on Chanel apparel and she got really good deals on Ralph Lauren apparel. So you had a lot of that fancy stuff. A lot of really nice stuff.

Actually, we were spending more to clean the items than not in the action. item. So it sounds crazy, but it was in fact at the time their sample sales were insane. They were incredible. And then really just and hand washing, even in college I was hand washing, but washing with baby shampoo and anything super gentle. I didn't like anything that was in the market. And I knew because of my textile experience that I didn't have to. You know, I didn't have to dry clean. Silk is washable. Casimir is washable. Really? Yeah.

And Gwen had had this incredible experience in London washing a cashmere sweater or someone had washed a cashmere, a service, a cashmere washing service. And so that was sort of like the tipping point of, oh, well, we, a service is a great idea, but we don't, what do we know about service? We know nothing about service. We know product. We know how to sell product. and we know about how to create a brand.

And so that was when the wheels started going, you know, we were kind of, okay, let's, let's, we need a product. We need like a, you know, a product that works like a baby shampoo, something that's gentle. Basically, it sounds like you were thinking of a kind of a service, a dry cleaning service, but not a laundry slash dry cleaning service for delicate clothing that would use very gentle cleaners for people. but then you thought, this is going to be too hard to do because opening a brick and mortar store in New York in 2002, I guess, was already pretty hard and expensive for the vast majority of people.

Oh, way too expensive. So we kind of, we asked the hard questions of like, what are we doing? We don't have any money. And leaving our jobs was not an option. We had to moonlight for two years. We weren't, you know, independently wealthy kids. Like, we were. Our parents were like, keep your, you know, when we ultimately left our jobs, they thought we were, you know, were crazy. We'll get there. But in 2002, when you guys sort of sat down and said, we let's just focus on, like, how did you focus on instead of having a store, focusing on cleaning products? Do you remember how you got to that decision? Well, we went away from the service quickly when we realized that we didn't have the infrastructure. We visited a local dry cleaner, a green cleaners, where we took a tour of their facilities, and we were trying to partner with them.

And it just was way over our heads. And at the time, both of us were traveling a lot for our jobs. And my first stop would be the local pharmacies, the local grocery stores, to find out what products and sense that they had that we didn't have. And Gwen had that same passion. We would buy detergents, not just detergents, but deodorants and baby cologne and fragrances and products from all over the world when we would travel. And we were noticing these different trends and things that and found products that were for delicates that we didn't have in the U.S. That we were using and testing on our Chanel items and on our cashmere.

All right. So you settle on. let's make a product that people can use at home. Yeah. Okay. And it sounds like you had experience just doing it yourselves, but I imagine if you were really going to do this and jump into this, you had to do some significant research because we're talking about science.

I mean, it's, right? I mean, there's fibers and different textiles and there's different things that might chemicals. Chemicals that react differently. So where was your first stop? I mean, where did you go? Who'd you go? Oh, would you go see?

What would you, because this is also kind of pre-internet. It's not pre-internet, but the internet wasn't really what it is now, 2002. Absolutely. So where did you go? So we contacted our, we went back to our school. To Cornell. And but our first, before we actually physically went there, we contacted a professor. She was an associate dean at the time.

And one of our, she was never our professor, but she was a professor in detergency. And again, we knew these resources that. Cornell had, right? That they had these... A professor and what? And detergency? Detergency, yes. There's a science of detergency. That's a professor at Cornell. Yeah. Who's a professor of detergency? That's incredible.

Yes. And you went to this professor and you said what? Well, we sent her an email and asked her, told her we had an idea and we wanted to talk to her about creating detergents. We called it Fabricare. and she was over the moon, wrote us back immediately and said, absolutely, let me know when you want to meet. And so we quickly scheduled our time. We spent a weekend up in Ithaca.

When we arrived into her office, well, we arrived with two huge bags of detergents, again, back to that collection of detergents that we had been buying over many years of during our travels. So from bleach and detergent, from Argentina, from France, from Greece, and some American brands and things that we had collected and we liked or things that we were questioning because we didn't know what the ingredients said. We just didn't know what that meant. And she had on her table in her office books stacked so high and sticky notes coming out

of the books. And she said, where do you want to begin? Wow. And Gwen and I looked at each other like, oh my goodness, this is, did we really sign up for this? What was the name of this professor again? Kay Obendorf. So you started to do some research on what would work best, and what did you start to discover? We discovered that we would spend a ton of time at Kinko is making copies. Right, of all these textbooks. Of all the textbooks and, and, and, Gwen and I split them up and we had highlighters and we highlighted all of the pertinent information and or what we thought would be important to educate ourselves on molecular structures and what happens when a fiber hits bleach. These are like, this is like the herald-meagie on food and science. This is like this reminds me, by the way, of Ken Grossman who started Sierra Nevada.

He went to the library at Chico State and just kind of buried himself in the science of beer brewing. you really like these these were like academic papers with like models and equations and stuff like that right yeah wow yeah the chemical society um books that come out every year i mean those were what we were reading we were reading them we loved it though it was really interesting we wanted we didn't want to go to a manufacturer and just say make something for us we wanted to know what we were making and i think that's what's woven into the whole business is that we wanted to make sure we were in control of what we were making. So let's for a moment talk about when you say delicates, like clothing that people dry clean,

what are we talking about? We're talking about cashmere, silk. What else are we talking about? So it's silk, cashmere, woolens, silk blends, things that, I mean, a lot of people obviously dry clean suits and things with heavy construction like evening gowns, things like that. Right. You can't just throw it in the wash, yeah. Exactly.

And by the way, what is the problem with dry cleaning? I mean, does it destroy, did it destroy clothes? I mean, besides the expense, I mean, what was your argument for your stuff being better than dry cleaning? Yeah, so ultimately the chemicals in dry cleaning are not great for you, for the environment or for the clothing. Especially the clothing, it leaves, it's not even really cleaning it. It's a solution that will take care of. of stains and it cleans it, but it's not really taking out odor. So it's not properly preserving the fiber. So ultimately, for an example, is when you're dry cleaning a sweater versus washing it, the dry cleaner will strip all the natural oils of the yarn, whereas washing it will bring out all the natural oils and keep it nice and fluffy and soft and the reason and why we love cashmere.

So those were things, and even with a silk fabric, it wasn't really the best way to ultimately preserve and it degrades fabric over time. And so you were, and you were taking, you were trying to figure out

how different chemicals affect different materials? We were trying to figure out why the industry looked the way it did and understand why certain chemicals and things were in the product and if we really needed it or not.

And at the same time, trying to find alternatives that would be safe to wash these things that people always think they have to dry clean. One of the main things for us is that we were questioning everything that the industry was doing. So we were wondering, like, why is everything blue? Is that beneficial to it?

You mean, the color was blue of the detergent? Yes, the color of the detergent's blue. And we wanted to know why. It turns out there isn't a reason why. Oh, really? It goes back to bluing. Well, it goes back to people's perception of bluing agents. And that ultimately is a whitener.

Right. So that's a very old thinking. But it's something that's stuck in the industry and it's still that way today. And so that helped us eliminate a lot of the things that were in the products at the time. When you started to kind of come across things that might work and clean in terms of cleaning, What kind of ingredients did you come across? So enzymes, enzymes were the real, and still are the differentiator for us. The products that work had enzymes, and ultimately the ones that had more enzymes worked better.

Because it break down the stains. It breaks down the stains, yes, exactly. And what we did, or what we do is we have more enzymes, a higher concentration of them. Where do you, what do you, I mean, I'm assuming you, both of you, you and Gwen decide, we got to make some of this. Like, like, the guys who started Method Soap made it in their apartment in San Francisco. You got to, like, make it.

Like, where did you get the raw materials to kind of mix and mix your potions? We went to a, we went to a manufacturing show where they have contract manufacturers. Right. We wanted a concentrated product, less water, no color. Yeah. We didn't want any, you know, additives. We wanted it as a plant-based, no petroleum. And so we identified all of those key things.

And then we were able to come up with sort of the real recipe and formula to make everything not blow up. We weren't doing science projects in our kitchen. Meantime, you were both still doing your day jobs. Yes. How are you financing? I mean, you want to get like a company, a manufacturer, to make you samples of what this could be. How are you paying for it? So initial kind of crowdfunding before that was a thing.

We threw what we called the soap splash. And that was something, it was a for-profit party where we invited all of our friends and family and past boyfriends and current boyfriends and anyone that would show up. We would say we serve them wine and our idea. And we took donations at the door. And we made all these really,

cute little cutouts of laundry hanging from a line and talked about, we didn't even have product at the time. We just kind of spoke about it. And how much, do you remember, like, how much money did you? $10,000. So these were not investors. It's just people helping out. This is just people helping out. And then ultimately, we were able to secure an SBA loan of $100,000. How are you able to do that? We were able to do that through, well, we had really good credit. And we also had our 401ks from our, from our jobs. So we were able to leverage, yes, that, which was really a blessing for us. We also scary because it is scary.

It is scary. You're maxing out, putting in 15,000 bucks a year as a young person. And you were maybe getting a match from your company. And you were putting that on the line, basically, to get this long. We put everything on the line. you personally guarantee for everything. And that was obviously a risk, but, you know, we weren't scared of that. We were so convinced that our idea was a home run.

And I think, but that's because it took two years of research and development before we actually left our jobs, though. So that was like, we wanted some security. Like we were risky, but it was more, it was a calculated risk a little bit. And when people asked you, when they're like, Lindsay, tell me a little bit about the business that you're doing. What would you say, well, we would just, we want to basically, we're making products that will kind of allow you to avoid the dry cleaner to just do yourself. Yeah. We, the initial elevator pitch, if you will, was that we were creating products that you could use for your everyday laundry, but, but most importantly, for things that you think you have to dry clean.

And that was initially the conversation we had. And, you know, everyone wanted to know the price point and the price point was mind-blowing to people. And most people thought we were crazy. Because why? What was the price point you had in mind? $20. Wait, how much is the bottle of Tide? Like four or five bucks?

No, Tide is a... Exactly. Yeah, depending on the size, but around that range. And you were charging $20. 20. So people are like, what? You're nuts. nuts. Who wants laundry? Who wants that? It's laundry detergent. You know, who do you, who needs that?

That doesn't make any sense. That'll never do anything. People aren't going to invest in that. And, you know, there was definitely times where we were like, man, we're never going to get any financing or we're never going to get it. You know, how are we going to do this? Because people are just not buying our idea. When we come back in just a moment, how Lindsay and Gwen managed to live. launch that idea, despite the doubters, and how they would spend the next five years leapfrogging from one credit card to the next just to keep the business from going under. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2004, and Lindsay and

Gwen have just cobbled together about $100,000 to launch their first detergent products. And that money comes from all kinds of places, including a party they had for family and friends. And so that was the initial hustle for us. And then we had the SBA loan, but we ultimately had a ton of credit cards that we were able to use to continue building the business. Just hopscotch from one to the next. Yes, we got a lot. We had, I don't know, six different credit cards that we were using. And by the way, what was the first product that you end up launching with? We launched with 13 products.

Wow, okay. So like different cleaners for different fabrics? Exactly. So we had our signature detergent, which is like for every day. And then we divide, then the rest of it was more novelty. So products like delicate wash, wool and cashmere. And we wanted to launch with a start-to-finish laundering experience all in one cent because there wasn't that experience for people. And so that created, obviously, more than just a few products to launch with. How many actual bottles of things did you order? Like 5,000, 10,000, do you remember?

We ordered about 250 of each skew, a very small run. We were able to partner with a small manufacturer. sure, that's not typical. Usually the runs are very high, but like at the time, it was like all we could possibly handle. Like there was no way that we were going. I mean, that would last us almost a year, six months to a year. All right.

So you, both of you guys still had some connections in the fashion world because, I mean, you had experienced selling your t-shirts at sacks and you'd worked, you were, you were at Chanel. So you were working with people who were buying Chanel products. And was the idea that you would sell the laundress products at stores like Sacks and Bloomingdale's and Bendell? And was that the idea initially? Yes. Yes.

It was definitely what can we tackle first. So that list consisted of friends of friends who had a boutique in the Hamptons, for instance, or in our towns that we grew up in. or even local stores in New York City. And then Berger F. Goodman, they were a client of mine at Chanel. And that was a whole other, I mean, going into the department stores with a luxury detergent, if you know what a department store outline or layout looks like,

it doesn't, there's no laundry section. Yeah. So while I had all of these contacts at department stores, it wasn't that simple. I had to speak to almost five or six different departments before anyone really even knew what to do with me or the product. And even then they didn't know what to do. I mean, I was selling the product at the cash register, you know, at the counter, because in order to get them to believe in that the product needed to be there.

I guess Bergdorf-Gudman was your first big client to say, all right, we'll put this up there. How did you get into Berg-Burdorf-Gum? Well, first I spoke with the lingerie buyer because we were selling delicate wash. So this is a product that was very commonly found for women for washing lingerie. And then I was able to navigate once I had credibility with the lingerie buyer. I was able to look at being with the cashmere buyer and then ultimately with the beauty buyer, which is where everyone would want to be, you know, as far as selling a product, like that. And the beauty buyer at the time loved the brand, love the idea. And, you know,

they had an exclusive. We gave them an exclusive for six months to be the only people selling the laundress. And this worked out really well. And by the way, were you keeping absolutely silent about this? Did people know that you're working on this? No one knew. Yeah. I wanted to make sure that my job was secure if I ultimately didn't take the leap or I always wanted I always had a plan B. I had a plan B for five years into the laundress. I always wanted to make sure that I was going to be relevant in my industry and be able to get another job. Because you would not quit your job yet. No, no. And I, you needed that income. I needed that income. I needed that job. And I wanted that job. By the way, I read that you had this really uncomfortable moment at Bergdorf Goodman,

because when you went there to pitch your laundry products, apparently you ran into another Bergdorf buyer who knew you from Chanel. So I actually, I actually, at that same time, I ran past the woman that let me in, you know, through the security, I passed by my buyer's office, the meaning the Chanel buyer that I work with to get to this new buyer that I was meeting for the laundress. She was like, oh, do I have an appointment with you? I was like, no, no, no, I'm meeting with someone else. And I just kind of like just hurried by. Like there was no, it was really awkward, really uncomfortable. Because she was like, hey, what are you doing here? Yeah. She thought, am I meeting you? And what did you tell her? I said, no, no, I'm, I'm, no, I'm meeting with somebody

yells like we're good you know and she she didn't even question it were you nervous that she was going to blow your cover i was very nervous but no she didn't it happened so quickly and honestly i left there so excited because they wanted the laundress that i think at that point i didn't really care and when when did you pull the trigger on quitting your job like right before you launched exactly did anybody you know your family or anybody say you sure you want to do this? My mom. She said, are you sure?

You know, she, like, over and over again. And, you know, my family never doubted what I could do or couldn't do. But I think they were worried because then I was going to be their problem. Yeah. And I think Gwen's family questioned her as well. I mean, this was, we were leaving coveted jobs and places we were very happy at. but we were passionate and then ultimately they supported that. So you quit your job and you launched this thing and was it like, you know, gangbusters?

Was it, you know, just a frenzy to buy your stuff? Like all of a sudden everybody going for the laundress or was it kind of more like crickets? Definitely not a frenzy. It was really difficult to get people on board. We had to, I mean, there was, there were moments when I made a list of stores to call and I would be calling and calling and calling. And people wouldn't call me back. So I would go to the store to meet the buyer. And we're talking about boutiques now, the smaller boutiques, because that is the majority of our business. It was really the bulk of how the brand was built.

I actually, there's a store in the West Village that I, that we really wanted to be in because the positioning was really, good for our brand and he refused to call me back. So I showed up with the products and I spent the whole day there and I said, just let me sell the product for you and you don't have to take it after. I just want to show you that this is where our product should be and ultimately he was one of our best clients in New York. When you launched this, I mean, from what I understand, you had, you launched it with about $110,000. So I'm assuming you're thinking we need to make money quickly to be able to pay our bills and expand and make more product. But from what I understand, like the first at least three years and probably four years,

you were not profitable. You were actually losing money every year. Right. That is true. We weren't making any money. We didn't take a salary. We had to write down what our bills were and pay our bills, and that's it. So we didn't lose our apartments. But we ultimately, between 2004 and 2008, we were.

worked with rep groups, so different people that would sell the product for commission. So we positioned our products within showrooms in Dallas, in Atlanta, in L.A., in New York. Like showrooms of what? Showrooms where they had other brands. So linen, like bedding showrooms that where it would make sense for someone buying linens and bedding, that they would buy our product. We were also in fashion showrooms where there were. was clothing and then they would buy our products. So we positioned ourselves in places like that and we

did a ton of trade shows. So you had you had to depend only on income from this business, but how did you, if you were not getting any income, how are you like paying a rent and buying food and stuff? Well, we had to pay our rent as a bill. It was like part of our, you know, accounts payable. So through our business in that way. Because everything was, everything was personally guaranteed. Our credit cards. We used credit cards. And then we would look at our bills and our finances and say, okay, who needs to get paid first? You know, what's going to be cut off first? But we had orders coming in. So there was always a flow of cash. It's just that we weren't anything that we made went back in, you know, back into the business. It wasn't like in our pocket. Right. And just curious,

in those early years when you weren't making money, were you ever tempted to try and get outside money just to make sure you didn't collapse? No, we were able to, we had money coming in. So it wasn't, we weren't concerned about collapsing. We probably could have done a lot more at a faster pace. Not probably. We definitely could have.

But we wouldn't have the same amount of control. role, our brand would most likely look very different today. I mean, when investors eventually started to make pitches to you who want to invest, why did you conclude that it was not in your interest to take the money? They weren't going to give us enough money to get, they wanted a lot of, they wanted a high percentage, they wanted a lot of equity for not, for, and not giving us that much money. And ultimately, what we were going to do with that money wasn't going to get us, faster in sales. So it wasn't going to get us to where we needed to be any faster.

So you were getting some like firms saying we'll give you a million dollars for 25%. Right. So we would lose control, but not, we weren't going to be, you know, a hundred million dollar company overnight. So or whatever, you know, and just throwing that number out there. But like, it wasn't going to be, we weren't going to get there any faster. And we were really happy with the the direction of the brand. Did you feel like, I mean, when you would go to these firms and they offered you, you know, a little bit of money for a huge equity stake, did you walk out of those meetings just feeling like undervalued and irritated?

Yes, all the time. And actually, one of the meetings, the guys fell asleep on us when we were presenting to them. Classy. Classy, yeah, classy. And he was trying to, like, act like he wasn't sleeping. and we noticed right away and we're like, really? And we spent a lot of time presenting and we're very passionate about our ideas

and then someone's falling asleep. That didn't really bode well with us. We didn't find, there wasn't a partner that we met that really understood the business. I think that becomes, that was something that if we found a partner that really got it, I think that storyline would have been. been a little different. I read that. Like, I guess there's one, one instance where like one of the

customers you had went behind your back directly to the factories that were making your product and had them white label the same products for them. Is that true? What's, how did that happen? Well, we had our, it was probably around 2006. We started selling to Russia. And it seems random, but it's not really random because Gwen had lived in Russia and we had some contacts there and there were some really beautiful stores there that we knew the laundress would be, you know, perfect for. And we found a distributor to sell the product to all of these stores. We did a huge launch and event. It was so much fun in Moscow. And success, like very quickly in that market.

And so much so that we, you know, not having capital, like we really couldn't keep up with the demand. And we also couldn't give anyone special payment terms. We needed the payment terms, you know? We were the ones that were the ones that, you know, we're struggling in that regard. And a lot of the distributors want to give. payments over a period of time. And we really needed to be paid in advance before we shipped any goods, especially overseas.

What if we never saw that money? So this specific distributor went directly to our manufacturer. Yeah. And he was buying the product from our manufacturer at a lower price. And so... Is it legal, by the way? No. No, it's not legal.

So what did you do? Well, what do you do when you don't have a lot of money to legally go after somebody? We confronted the manufacturer. We confronted the distributor. And we just stopped working with him. We owned our formulas and we went somewhere else. I guess you didn't really have money to sue. Yeah.

Suing him would have been a long headache and a lot of money. And we needed to move forward. and ultimately the distributor that we were working with then come to find out, which is even worse than what he was doing with the manufacturer, was that he was making counterfeit product. Oh, my God. And we found out from a client because she had a rash.

Those are the moments when we thought, oh, my goodness, how are we ever going to recover from this? You know, that was definitely a struggle for us. Yeah. So the client, we had immediately said to the client, can I see the bottle? Can you send me the bottle? And so it turns out it was in our formulation. It was our branding, our name. So, you know, looked like it was our product. And the same distributor that was selling our product was making additional units because he had a demand and he wanted to satisfy and he didn't care. He was

sacrificing. He was buying it cheaper, poor quality and selling it. So we had both products in the market. So he was leveraging himself as being a licensed distributor of the laundress because he was and then selling counterfeit product at the same time. Yeah. Wow. So that, that, you know, we early on had all our name trademarked in any country that we were sold to. So we owned the licensing and the trademarks. And when you sign, when you have a distributor, you allow them to use your name and all those things. But it was really hard for our trademark lawyer to pin that down. And, and ultimately, it would have cost way too much money for not a lot of results. So we pulled from them. Yeah. And luckily, it didn't become a global issue for us. So while you were, I mean,

you're trying to kind of get awareness. You're kind of the, I guess the, the, the, the, The trajectory was good because you're growing. What was the turning point? I mean, I guess by 2008, you finally became profitable. Right. I think you did $1.8 million in sales, and that's revenue. So maybe your expenses were like $1.7 million that year. So you were finally profitable, which meant that you and Gwen could finally take a salary.

maybe it was $50,000 each or $40,000 each. What was the turning point? Was there anything in particular that got you to profitability? Yes, a few different things. We, well, our e-commerce business was continuing to grow. And then we were also expanding globally. We signed up in 2006 with our first distributor in Europe. We also were able to get into areas of Asia as well.

some of our first clients were in Hong Kong as well as Tokyo. Yeah. So we were able to be profitable, take salary, start hiring employees, and running like a real business. When you kind of turn to profit, was that kind of the beginning of profitability from that point forward? Was it just, did you just grow up? Because 2008, 2009, that's a financial crisis. Yeah. So it's a weird time for us because we were growing. And it was a horrible time for, you know,

our U.S. business wasn't really growing at all. So we had to pivot quickly and focus on, we always had a diverse business portfolio from international U.S. retail and then e-com. And so we put a lot of our energy and focus on the markets or the clients that were doing well in the U.S. We put a lot of energy in them. So like really the bigger stores. And we look to our international partners and spent a lot of time going over there and meeting the customers and putting a lot of energy in those markets that were doing well. And this is something that I think was really, really is important for brands to think about.

and having just one way for revenue, it can be really tough. I think about that now, too, during quarantine and what everyone's going through. It's very, it's important to be creative and think of all the angles of what you're doing. Because if we were only sold in the U.S. boutiques, we would not have come out of that the way we did. So you're growing and the growth is organic. It sounds like it's organic. And by, I guess, what, 2015, you open a store, a brick and mortar store. Yeah. And that was entirely financed just by the revenue that the company was generating. Yes, exactly. And that was the initial plan. We wanted the service in the store. We wanted to really show the lifestyle of laundry and have a place where people could go and ask questions. and try the products and smell the products,

the scent experience is really, really important to our brand. And scent in general for detergents are very important to clients and customers. I mean, they're very nostalgic, and it makes them think of their, you know, our baby detergent people still use, even though they don't have babies anymore, you know? It makes them think of that time. And I think coming from brands with stores, It was something we always kind of dreamed of.

We didn't know when that was going to happen. And actually, our first store wasn't in New York City. It was in Sanjuku Station in Tokyo, Japan. Really? Yes, a tiny little place. It's still there. It's fantastic. So they were the first people on board with having a laundress retail store,

and then New York, and then we have Seoul Korea as well. Yeah, why? I mean, it's interesting. Why Seoul and Tokyo? Is that, is the product is really resonating? Very strong markets. Very strong markets for us. What explains that?

Their tremendous understanding of fashion and their love for clothing. They are fanatics about caring for their wardrobe. So they jumped on board quickly. And so did Europe as well, a lot faster than the U.S. market. So you guys are expanding. You're profitable. But I guess around like 2018, you start thinking about finding a buyer for your brand. Yeah.

And why? Were you both just like kind of done? Like, were you just really, I mean, I mean, you work like insanely hard and you were, you just kind of burned out. And is that why? It was more about us. It had to happen. Otherwise, we weren't going to be able to grow any bigger than we were. And I think we were scared about giving, you know, having an outside investor because we didn't know what that looked like.

I mean, we've been doing this for 15 years. It's like, what is that going to look like to us? We heard really scary stories from friends of ours that had businesses for a long time. And we, you know, a lot of our friends that are successful and they're unhappy. They're miserable. And so, you know, I'm talking about not a startup getting money, but like being in this business and living and breathing it every day for 15 years and then having an outside partner come in and tell you to do things differently. It's not received well, I don't think. So we, that was something that we explored. And we had three different companies come to us with interest of, um, buying us and and partnering with us. So the timing was just really meant to be. And we were ready.

You got an offer that you accepted from Unilever. Yes, exactly. They bought your brand reportedly for $100 million and kept you on. You would stay on. I'm still working there. You're an employee of Unilever now running the business. But with Unilever behind you, you now, I mean, it was one of the biggest multinationals in the world. I mean, the sky's the limit. you could probably scale in any way you want to. So it's interesting because that's the potential. But in the beginning, you know, it's really about keeping the brand integrity and the identity

and the way that they work is that they really are adamant about keeping the brand separate, but obviously joined, but separate in the sense where we're still have our same office. We still have all the same employees. and our DNA looks and feels the same. We have additional resources. But we are, we do really kind of run on our own still. So while scaling will happen, it's not, oh, you acquire, you get acquired and like, poof, you're an overnight sensation.

Like it's not, it doesn't work that quickly. And so under navigating that has, that's the challenge now to, really take what they have at our disposal and scaling. When you, I mean, when you think about this journey you took and what happened, I mean, you know, you sold this company, made a lot of money. It was not a guaranteed slam dunk. It was a slow burn. It took a long time before you were able to really become profitable.

There's a lot of stress. Do you think that the success of this company, company had to do with how hard you and Gwen worked? Or do you think some of it had to do with luck? I think it had to do with the success of how hard we worked. The success came from the hard work. Luck, you know, we carved out. We just, we went into an industry. Like, we disrupted a multi-billion dollar industry. I mean, we, we definitely were ahead of our time and, you know, pioneering a product that didn't exist. Yeah, I think, I don't know, it depends on your definition of luck.

I think you create your own luck. I mean, you really kind of struggled for so long with this business. And even when you could pay yourself, I can't imagine you ever really were able to pay yourself huge amounts of money. Maybe it's more significant towards the end, but never, you know, I'm assuming, you know, this Unilever thing, it made you and Gwen rich. I mean, probably beyond what you ever imagined. Was it weird?

Did that kind of change the way you, I don't know, lived or, you know? Well, I think, I think because it was something, so, you know, along the journey, we saw a lot of our friends excel and save money and buy homes and all these things. And we weren't able to save. We didn't have any money to save. We were, all of our money was going back into the business. So I think ultimately our goal of selling to a strategic was kind of our way of saving, if you will. Like we knew like investing this like, you know, everything into a business would ultimately pay off.

And that was what happened. That's Lindsay Boyd, co-founder of The Laundress. The company now sells more than 80 products and they've expanded beyond just fabric care to include household cleaners as well. And while so many companies are suffering during the current economic crisis, Lindsay says their business is actually up by 150 percent because people are stuck at home, doing more cooking, cleaning, and yes, laundering. If you go to a barbecue, by the way, would you still be comfortable wearing white? Yes. You would. You do that. You wear white to a barricie? I have a white sofa with two small children.

Oh, my God. My house is white. My dog just threw up on our sofa. It's gray. What do I do? Quick. What do I do? It really happens.

Really? You need stain solution and bleach alternative. Right away? Just the growing up? No, you don't have to worry about the right-of-way thing. Oh, okay. You can do it later. Stain will still come out if it's properly treated.

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also write to us at hibt at npr.org. If you want to send a tweet, it's at how I built this. at Guy Raz. This episode was produced by Rachel Faulkner with music composed by Rumpteen Arableauy. Thanks also to J.C. Howard, Candice Lim, Dareth Gales, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.