How I Built This with Guy Raz - Tory Burch: Tory Burch

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

Tory Burch didn’t set out to make her name into a brand; she didn’t even set out to get into fashion. As a matter of fact, she sort of gave up any fashion ambitions when her first designs were rejected by Ralph Lauren. But after noticing there were plenty luxury brands and plenty of affordable brands but nothing in between, Tory began to see a gap that she could fill. She tried to revive a dormant brand from the 1960’s, until one phone call put an end to that idea. So in 2004, with the help of her husband—a fashion entrepreneur in his own right—Tory Burch launched Tory Burch, a lifestyle brand with everything from shoes and swimwear, to handbags and home goods. Despite a rift in the relationship with her husband, that also bled over into the business, Tory has built a global brand with over 300 stores worldwide.This episode was produced by J.C. Howard, with music by Ramtin ArabloueiEdited by Neva Grant, with research help from Katherine Sypher.You can follow HIBT on Twitter & Instagram, and email us at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I talk to entrepreneurs all the time who are looking for a way to upgrade their digital footprint. Well, whether you're just starting out or you're scaling your business, Squarespace is the easiest way to build a great website that stands out. It's an all-in-one website platform that gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your products, and get paid. Anyone can use Squarespace's cutting-edge design tools to build an online presence that truly reflects what makes your business special.

There are templates, intuitive drag-and-drop editing, and even an AI-enhanced website builder. Then, Squarespace's built-in analytics tools help you make smarter business decisions. Review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement, and track revenue all in one place. Looking to grow your business, Squarespace even offers fast, easy business financing

through Squarespace capital. Go to Squarespace.com slash built for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code built to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Loans issued by Celtic Bank and serviced by Stripe, all loans subject to credit approval. This show is in partnership with Airbnb. This past summer, I took my family to Vienna, and it was incredible. We spent our days wandering the old streets, stopping for coffee and pastries, visiting museums, and just soaking up the history of one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And one of the things that made the trip so special was the home we booked on Airbnb. It had

tall windows, beautiful old details, and plenty of space for all of us. And being in that home on Airbnb, right in the middle of Vienna, walking distance from so much of the city, made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with a place with a all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca slash host. How I built this is pleased to have Upwork as our presenting sponsor. Visit Upwork.com to get hiring. Upwork has a message for you. Everything you know about business? It was made up by a bunch of guys 100 years ago.

Don't stay bound to their antiquated rules like the 9 to 5 workday, commuting to an empty office building, or only hiring full-timers. Embrace a new way of working with Upwork. It's a portal to the future of business, and it's disguised as a website. Go to Upwork.com. There you'll see the light and also find talent for projects of any size, from simple deliverables to complex projects, from short-term help to full-time hires. You can finally let those old business titans and their tired ideas rest in people. This is how we work now. Visit Upwork.com to get hiring talented professionals today.

Hey, it's Guy here. You know, we hear a lot of stories on how I built this about facing hurdles, overcoming obstacles, and being told no again and again and again. I recently talked with country music superstar Shania Twain, and she shared some pretty candid and surprising insights on how she, as a female performer from Canada, had to make some pretty bold moves

to break into the male-dominated world of country music in Nashville. You should definitely check out my interview with Shania Twain on my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for the great creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts. And now on to today's show. I never slept. I was working out of my apartment for the first two years. We didn't have an office. So it was doing everything in our kitchen or in our living room.

It was taking my kids to school and then getting on the phone until 4 in the morning, falling asleep on the phone. Yeah. It was the most exhausting year and following by 18 other years. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Tori Burge wanted to revive a former former film. fashion label was told no, so she launched her own and grew it into a global brand with 370 stores around the world. When Tori Birch launched her fashion brand in the early 2000s, there were a lot of people who wrote her off. The perception, at least at the time, was that this was a vanity

project from a so-called socialite. Tori had been an influential executive at Ralph Lauren, Vera Wang, and LVMH. She would sometimes appear in glossy magazines at fancy parties in New York City. But being well connected isn't enough, especially when you're building a consumer brand, because at the end of the day, consumers have to like what you sell. And 20 years later, Tori Birch is one of the most enduring fashion brands in the world, a company that is worth billions of dollars. And one of the reasons for the brand's success is,

its point of view. Tori wanted to create clothing and accessories that were timeless and beautifully designed, but that lived in that zone of aspirational affordability. So shoes, for example, that might look like they cost $1,000 but were priced closer to $300. The road to taking Tori Berch from a single boutique in New York to hundreds of stores around the world was fraught, almost from the beginning. Within two years of launching, she and her husband and business partner Chris Birch divorced. Their split and subsequent legal battles became fodder for the tabloid press, but remarkably the two of them ended up resolving their differences. And through it all, Tori figured out how to compartmentalize the drama happening behind the scenes and still grow the brand.

Tori Birch grew up in a sprawling 250-year-old farmhouse about 30 minutes outside of Philadelphia. She came from a blended family with three brothers. Her mom was an aspiring actress and model, and her dad? He was the most extraordinary man. I mean, definitely known for his style and quick wit. His humor was hysterical, and he was like the king of one-liners, but he was definitely more of an introvert. I remember always just saying, I love you and getting him to say I love you.

And he was just the kindest person you could ever meet. What did he do for a living? So, you know, it's funny. I mean, he never really worked. And so when you had to fill out those little things in school that what did your father do, I never really knew what to write. So I would write investor or I wasn't really quite sure what to write. But in a way, it was interesting.

He was like a bon vivant. But he was much deeper than that. But he spent a lot of time traveling and spent a lot of time in Europe. And I used to have books of the women he dated. And he finally met my mom and fell in love. I don't think they got married until he was 40 years old. And so back then, that was pretty ancient. So he was, I mean, he was like from what you described from on whatever,

Reddy. It was almost like a, I mean, a dandy, right? Like, you, I think you described him wearing espadrilles and pink shirts sitting on a tractor. Well, yeah, I mean, I just have this vivid memory of him on this giant tractor and listening to sport games and always just perfectly dressed. And in a way, he should have been a designer because he had all of his clothing made and it was just incredible detailing, much of which I've used for inspiration and a lot of the things we've made over the years. And were you like as a as a as a as a girl, you know, and forgive me for using this term because it's lazy and kind of just shorthand, but were you like a girly girl or or were you into sort of stereotypical girl things? Like not at all, not even the slightest. I was a complete

tomboy. I was constantly climbing trees and trying to keep up with my brothers. So I, I, I, I don't think I put a dress on until I was later in high school. I remember, you know, when I was young, I had no choice. But I remember coming. Actually, my dad took me one day to the barber. And I finally had gotten long hair. I was born bald. And my dad took me to the barber and I got a cut.

And my mom was so furious because I looked literally like a boy. I know that when you got older, you went to college at University of Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, where I guess you studied art history. And when you graduated, did you, like, is that what you want to do or were you interested in fashion or what? I was, you know, in the college was like the most fun. And I was thinking of all kinds of different things. And then I realized I needed to get a job. And it was the sense of urgency. I'm not as sure that happens today. But back then it was everyone needs. needed to work right away, and we needed to figure it out. And so I sent about 50 resumes to people. And, you know, my sister-in-law was in fashion. She'd worked at Calvin Klein. And my mom wore this designer, Zoran. And so I sent a note to him. He was like a small designer in New York City. He was small, but incredibly cool. He was known as like this extraordinary minimalist and didn't use zippers or buttons. And it was all about the fabric and

the drape. And he had a boutique in the city? He did not have a boutique. He sold wholesale. And he sold out of his showroom, which is where I ended up getting a job. And he basically told me that I could have a job if I came to work that next week, which was literally almost a week after graduation. So I, within that week, had to find an apartment and moved to New York. And I moved with two of my roommates. And we lived in a one-bedroom with three girls in Tribeca. And what was your job? I mean, like, was it substantive work? Was it fetching coffee? It was anything that he needed done. So basically, you walked into his office slash showroom, and he was this man that looked like Rasputin, and the vodka would start at 10 in the morning. And whether I was pouring his vodka or

getting coffee or running interferences if he didn't want to see people. But I was setting up meetings with editors and I was like taking notes. I was sending shipments. I was doing anything that needed to be done. And it was just he's known as Zoran. Zoran. Like Pele or Madonna. Exactly.

And he would dress everyone from Isabel Rosalini to, I mean, everyone chic and beautiful. and it was an amazing induction into the fashion world. And, I mean, so you kind of fell into the fashion world. It wasn't like you were seeking this out. It was like you had to find a job and there was this opportunity to work for Zoran. And then that kind of got you into the fashion world. But it wasn't necessarily like your plan. No, it wasn't my plan.

I mean, that said in like thinking about it, I was immersed in fashion my whole childhood between my mom and my dad and just watching. them, not partaking per se, but I never really thought that would be my plan. Did you have a fashion, like, sensibility as a young woman? Like, did you, was it something you were really into or into clothes? It's funny. I guess I had my own style because I was always made fun of it, Penn. And I always love vintage also. That was something. And so I would wear, like, Grateful Dead T-shirts and an Air Misk scarf and L. L.L. Bean boots. And I kind of had uniforms. And I remember my friend Patrick used to say,

call me prok. And it was because it was like this look of like sort of a bit preppy and a bit of a jock. And so I guess I stood out a bit. And I guess you went on to have eventually a few more jobs in the fashion world. You were for a while you were an assistant at Harper's Bazaar, the magazine. And then and then you went to work for Ralph Lauren to do, I think, PR for them, right? Right. So I went to Ralph Lauren. It was a very glamorous job in a closet, managing samples. And it was really there that I was exposed to so many different parts of his brand.

And, you know, it's funny when I was thinking about this interview, while I was at Ralph, there was one time that I tried to work in design and submitted a project. and I was turned down. And I'll never, I hadn't, I don't think I've ever told anyone that. But I really, I guess at the time was interested in design or at least became interested because I was at Ralph for a while. There's this like this kind of caricature, right, of what it's like to work at a fashion house, right? And it comes from media and films and The Devil Wears Prada and whatever it might be, right? And, I mean, you were in your early 20s in New York.

This is the early 90s. It's like, you know, and Ralph Lauren, really, he's kind of the OG, right? He's the guy who, you know, we had Michael Coors on the show a while back, and he talked about Ralph Lauren how he really looked to Ralph Lauren as a model for what, you know, eventually he would do. Did you, what was the atmosphere and the environment like? Was it cut throat? Was it cruel? Where people mean? And what do you remember?

I mean, I didn't find that at all. I thought it was spectacular and you go and you dream. And so, but it was interesting because I used to have this joke. I don't know if you'd think it was funny, but I used to call them Polo Krishna's, all of us, because everyone was dressed head to toe Ralph. And it was like you had to eat and drink and breathe Ralph in a cool way. And I just thought that that was fascinating. And I loved my boss.

And she's still there. People stay forever there, Mary Randolph Carter. When you meet Mary Randolph Carter, she looks quintessentially like a Ralph model. She's stunning. Did you, I mean, you mentioned that you had submitted some designs when you worked at Ralph Lauren, which didn't go anywhere. They kind of didn't really. It was a project, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, did you hold on to that kind of dream of maybe doing design work, or did you kind of give that up at that time? I sort of gave it up at the time. And I didn't really think a lot about it. You know, I was thinking a lot about just how I became a designer. And with my love of vintage and my mother's clothing, I used to remake clothing all the time with a tailor. Oh, you'd bring her stuff to a tailor? I would bring her stuff or find stuff vintage and remake it.

I mean, even in college, I even remember in high school, we had a uniform, but I was always wearing like boxer shorts and getting in trouble underneath my uniform and like adding patches. And I was always, you know, doing things like that. But I never really, never really registered. Did you so? No. I mean, very, very badly.

All right. So meanwhile, you, you end up doing a few different jobs in fashion, I think. In the mid-90s, you got a job doing a PR at Vera Wang. And then a couple years later, you left to go. co-work for LVMH doing PR for one of their brands, which is the luxury brand Lueve. And also, I guess, during this period, you meet someone who's going to become very important to your life, who is Chris Birch. How did you meet Chris? He had an office in the same building, and then we met in the elevator, and he laughs.

But my sister-in-law said, if there were 10,000 people in the room, he'd be the last person that she thought I would date. And he repeats that story, so I can. And he was old, he is older than you. Yeah. And so you, the two of you started dating and then you got married. You became Tori Birch in 1996. Yes. Yes, I did. I fell in love with his three little girls.

Aside from him, but he had three little girls that were. five, seven, and eight at the time. And what was he, I mean, who was Chris Birch? What was he? I mean, he was this incredible entrepreneur and still is. And he built this company called Eagle's Eye with his brother. And it was a very big company for Philadelphia. It was like the sort of preppy company.

It was sort of novelty sweaters and Christmas sweaters. I don't know if you remember turtlenecks with embroidered whales on it or ladybugs. And so he built this company like from college. He started to travel to Asia. And he was one of the first people to really do production over there. And he and his brother Bob just built a pretty terrific company. So you guys get married in 1996 and you become Troy Robinson, Birch, I think, right? Yes.

And you, I think pretty relatively soon after you had, you had two boys, twins. So you guys had, within a year, you had a pretty big blended family. He had three daughters. Five children. Yeah, I need five children at the house and a pretty busy job. I mean, working for LVMH, so there's a lot going on. And I guess eventually they offered you a pretty big job there. They offered me a bigger job because they were looking for a head of,

of U.S. Head of U.S. For Loeve. And I also found out I was pregnant with my third son. Wow. So I realized that three babies under the age of four was a little too much to have a career at the same time. And it was a very tough decision to leave a career that I loved and essentially become a stay-at-home mom. So when you decided to leave, and tell me a little bit about what that meant in your life.

It's the early 2000s. You now have got kind of six kids under your roof. But did you think that you, I mean, do you remember thinking I probably won't go back into a corporate job? Well, I had so many ideas to start different companies during that time. And just, I guess I was trying to find my way. And I was trying all different things. And the one thing that I realized is that I didn't want to keep talking about things to friends and people until it was real. Yeah.

I was getting tired of the ideas because I would talk about them and then nothing would come to fruition. What do you mean you had ideas? I mean, you... Like, I was just getting tired of the ideas. I was just interested. It could have been like there was a baby contraption. I mean, there was a lot. I mean, I also had an idea to start a school, a charter school, because it was hard to get, you know, children into schools. And I felt like there was a big need in New York City. So it wasn't always around fashion. It was, you know, it was also right at the time when I was moving down to Philadelphia, my dad wasn't 100% well. I had all of these. things happening at once. And I kind of knew that I wanted to start a company. And I also knew that I wanted to start a foundation one day. So I had this instinct that if I could build something big, I could also then have the financials to invest into a foundation. Just the idea of

wanting to start a company, where do you think that came from? Is that something that you you think you always had like a seed inside of you of, like that you always somehow thought maybe you would do that? Or is it something that started to emerge after you got more experience? I think it came with more experience. I really don't think it was, you know, something that I had planned. Certainly I never planned to be a designer. But I think it came with really learning so much from all the different places that I had worked. You came to this. this state of mind, this place with, I guess, with a sense of confidence that maybe you could do this. You could actually start a business.

Well, maybe it's because I really didn't know what I was embarking on because I literally hear myself and think back on some of the conversations I had. And it's slightly embarrassing. I mean, I said I wanted to start a global lifestyle brand so that I could start a foundation. And had I known what that would mean and take, I probably would have been a little more careful in the words I used. I always, you know, there's certain things where my parents always say your own worst enemy.

Like, you can be more confident at times and feel less at others. So, and maybe also hearing, you know, about what Chris had worked on at Eagle's Eye, I think he had the ability to make product. And so that was interesting for me. All right. So you are thinking through a bunch of different ideas.

And you kind of land on this idea that there's a gap in the market. There's not that like attainable luxury clothing apparel is not, there's an opportunity there. That either you had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars or you had to spend. to go to like, you know, fast fashion. But your, you felt like there was an opportunity to create sort of luxury apparel, but not a luxury prices. Yeah, I did feel that there was nothing in between. I felt at the time there was the gap in Banana Republic. And then there was Calvin Klein and Ralph Lauren, you know, so.

Which was true in the late 90s, early 2000s. There was not, there really wasn't the in between. and sort of, I also felt luxury was not necessarily about a price point. And for me, it was, I was always taught through my mom and dad that it was really about emotion and how something makes you feel and time. And I just had a different perspective on what luxury meant. And I would watch my mom get dressed and put on this gold lemay-Zoran outfit. And she'd come, and just, it was like this, like, awakening. And she'd be. so lively and energetic. And she loved fashion. And so it just was an interesting way to think about it,

is how fashion can change the way you feel about yourself. So you left LVMH in 2001, and you wouldn't launch Tori Birch until 2004. So let me talk. Let's talk about the time in between for a moment. When you, this idea is starting to coalesce in your mind. There's a gap here. And I think I can come up with something to fill that gap. And when you went to Chris, who, you know, had experience in the apparel business, and as did you, but when you went to him and you sort of talked to him about this idea, what was his response? I mean, he liked the idea. I also had a friend Fiona Cotor who worked at Ralph with me, and she worked in design. And she also was part of the conversation because I wanted to start a business with her. We had talked about it. And so she,

also had a bit of experience more than I did around the product and the actual design process. So in a way, she really helped me learn about that in the beginning. And Chris really liked the idea. I think he had sold Eagle's Eye, and in a way he probably missed the business because he was very passionate about it. So he really did like the idea of us starting something. And you knew, I mean, you kind of, I imagine you knew what you were going for. I mean, you had worked at Ralph Lauren. You'd worked with Vera Wang and LVMH. So you knew kind of what attainable luxury meant in your minds.

Well, I had an idea. I mean, I sort of, you know, put these books together of what I thought it could be. What were the books? Was that like a mood board of like different images or things that? that you had sketched? Yeah, it was all of the above. It was old pictures of my parents from the 60s and 70s. It was images of a ballet flat from Audrey Hepburn.

It was a company my mom wore called Jacks. That was what I really wanted to do, is relaunched Jacks. That was really what my first idea was, is to bring Jacks back. And Jacks was this great brand that all these various, stylish women wore. It was designed by Rudy Gernreich, and it was in the 60s and 70s. My mom wore it, and it was the perfect cigarette pan. It was the perfect P-coat. It was the perfect gingham dress. And so we ended up going down to New Jersey to someone who had a ton of archives. Because Jacks was no longer in business. Jacks was no longer. It had gone out of business. And so I was,

you know, really excited about this idea. And then I called Sally Hansen, who was probably 90 at the time. I got in touch with her. And Sally Hansen was the founder. She was the founder. Okay. And the owner of the intellectual property. So you were thinking, oh, well, let's buy this brand and relaunch it. Yes. And so I got her on the phone. And literally it was such a shutdown within 20 seconds. She basically said absolutely not. And so it was like, whoa, I would done so much work on it. I had called different people. So then I had to regroup. So she wouldn't sell it to you. No. But your first step really in thinking of a concept was to build this brand Bible, this book.

Yes, yes. Just pictures, your mom. Pictures. And old things by Jacks, but other things as well. It could have been vintage. It was, you know, pictures of. Steve McQueen and different men that looked chic. It was kind of just an image board.

But it was books and books. It wasn't a board. But it was like the beginning of what I thought, you know, what became the company. When we come back in just a moment, Tori launches a website, opens her first store, and wrestles with a loaded word. Ambitious.

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How to Have you. How I Built This. One more thing before we get back to the show, please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And it's totally free. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz.

So it's the early 2000s, and Tori's idea for reviving the fashion brand, Jacks, has gotten a flat no from the founder. So she's trying to figure out what to do next. I regrouped and thought, okay, we can do this without using jacks, but it was still kind of a similar idea in that it was these classic pieces that were incredibly hard to find and beautifully made. And that was a different price point than what you might find at Valentino or YSL. So for me, it was like how do we really think about quality and look at,

look through a luxury lens, but offer something that can reach more customers. And it was the beginning of this concept of a retail store and this idea of direct to consumer, which was also the opposite of what I was told to do at the time. So in that period of time, from like concept to launch, right, you started to talk to people. You partnered up with some former colleagues. And I guess you even brought in some designers to help you kind of sketch out designs of, what, of dresses, of tops, of tunics. It was everything. I mean, literally it was about maybe nine to 11 different categories, whether it was footwear, handbags, swim, ready to wear, eyewear. It was jewelry.

So I really thought about everything in these image books about sort of what would be. interesting to have my take on it. And so I think it was just about women and they were becoming more and more busy and they wanted to look chic and I wanted to be a problem solver. A lot of women struggled with how do you put certain things together. How do I wear a color? How do I wear a print? I always heard that in everywhere I worked. How do you know, women didn't always have the confidence. And I kind of was thinking, like, how do you be irreverent and interesting but still be classic in spirit? And those were some of the things I thought about. So at what point were you comfortable to sort of pull the trigger and say, let's do this.

Let's start to bring some money in. So I remember it. It was really around 2003 when I decided that I wanted to start something. And it was a year of very intense everything to get the idea of the company together. So you needed to obviously raise some money. And I know that you and Chris put in some money as well. But starting a fashion brand is not – it's hard, I think, to do it with $100,000. Like you need significant cash to do it.

Yeah. I mean, Chris and I put in $2 million. and we also were funding the beginnings of it. And that was everything from the branding. We worked with a company called Modco to work on our logo and to actual setting up the production in Hong Kong. And Chris had experience with that. We set up our Hong Kong office before anything.

Let me kind of ask you about the, the logo, which is now kind of iconic two T's, right? Was that, I mean, tell me about that logo. How did that, was that the logo from the very beginning? So, yes. I met with this branding company called Monco, and I said, you know, I wanted to create a logo that we could use in different ways. and I was really interested in Morocco. My parents had spent their honeymoon

and then just constantly went back. And then also David Hicks, who was an interior designer that I always loved and my parents loved. And so I thought there was something interesting that we could combine and that it would be more of a design element. And they came back with different iterations,

but many different iterations. And they came up with this one, and it was the one that I loved. And it was the first one. that I had an emotional connection to. And I would say that wasn't the case for everyone. It was polarizing. And people either loved it or they didn't.

And I really loved it. Yeah, because you can, I mean, probably people said, oh, it looks like an iron cross or something like that. You know, we got the cross. We got, it looked, it looked Asian, it looked, it looked Moroccan, it looked. You know, everyone had a different opinion. And did you ask yourself at the time, like, because it's such an iconic logo today, but you couldn't have known that in 2003 while you were designing it? But did you, were you ever sort of asking the question like, hey, if we just put this logo on a sticker, we want people to know what this is.

Was that? I wasn't thinking about it that way. I wasn't thinking like, what is our logo? What's your Nike swoosh? Yeah, it wasn't like that at the time. It was just, you liked it. It was Maraqa. I liked it.

And I felt that it was like, I felt it was impactful and strong. And, you know, I had spent some time studying Chinese art. And it reminded me of like never ending the circle. And it was, it just felt vibrant. All right. So you have the logo. And you decide that Hong Kong is really the best place for you to set up manufacturing. Because Hong Kong obviously tailoring textile center for a long time.

And so from that base, you could basically establish relationships. Well, I went and I met with factories. And back then to ask a factory to make 50 or 100 pieces of something was not that interesting for them. Yeah. So they had to, I think going there personally made all the difference and showing them that if they took a chance on us that we would stay with them. partner with us that we would grow with them. So it was a lot of long dinners, a lot of long conversations. And I think also Chris's experience of building a brand absolutely helped as well. And this from the beginning was going to be a fashion brand, but that was also a retail location.

You were not, it wasn't like you were going to build a brand and sell it to, you know, Bloomingdale's. No. In fact, I was not thinking about whole. sale at all in the beginning. I was really interested in direct-to-consumer, and I really felt that e-commerce at some point would be worth it. And it was also a way that we could reach more people. But, I mean, because of your experience working in the industry, I mean, you could have had far faster distribution if you, if you, right, if you had designed a line and then went and talk to a bunch of buyers.

Yes, yes. And that could have been a faster way to get your brand out into the world. Well, I think that's sort of a message about our whole company. We've never wanted to take the fast way. We've always wanted to be a patient brand, even from the very beginning. I've never been inspired by becoming the biggest brand. I wanted to be the most extraordinary brand. What about the name of the company?

I mean, originally was not called Tori Birch, right? No. Well, I didn't want to use my name, and I tried to get, I wish I could remember maybe 10 names, and all of them were taken or unavailable in some way. And so I thought Tori by TRB, in retrospect, it was such a bad name. But that's what we ended up using. And I think it was probably a year and a half into it. it or maybe two years into it that I ended up changing it.

To Tori Birch. Yes. And so just to kind of, I mean, just I'm imagining this. I mean, you really did a lot of work before. I mean, you laid the groundwork. You had you set up a shop, an office in Hong Kong. You had a logo, a name, and then a product line. And so what, yeah, tell me about that product line.

So we were designing different products and I was really interested in sweater. And we had ready to wear, we had the P coat, the concept of the perfect pant. We had the caftan. I had found a vintage tunic in a Paris flea market for about $8. That became one of the core pieces of our collection. We had a fair amount of my mom's clothing that I was inspired by. And we had totes, we had swim, we had espadriol, And you would have them, you would have, so you had a lot of products.

I mean, you had a bunch of things in a lot of different sizes. We did. I wouldn't say we had a tremendous amount of inventory, but we had what we needed. And you were going to be selling things online, which was kind of rare at the time. But you were also going to open a physical store, right? Like a retail location in New York. So tell me about that first store. So we found a location where the rent was very inexpensive, and that was Elizabeth Street.

In Tribeca. In Tribeca. There was nothing on the street at the time. There was Cafe Hibana and maybe a couple stores. And the store we ended up taking was a furniture store. So you opened the store February 2004 in Tribeca. During Fashion Week, yep. During Fashion Week.

And what did, I mean, creating. a tangible luxury, did it mean, because a lot of what makes something luxury is in the design, right, in how it's designed and how people perceive that design. But were you able to create that those luxury products because your manufacturing costs were lower because they were being made in Asia? Well, I think so. I think we were pushing the limit there. And we, first of all, I had met some different designers. So the attention to detail and design was there. And the quality was incredibly beautiful. I think I've learned a lot about design, I would say. The pieces were at the time great and they stood out and different. But as I've learned to become a designer over time, you know, it was the first collection.

All right. So that store opens. And it's a hit. I mean, you sell everything. out in the first couple days. And I guess around that time, the New York Times wrote it's a piece about, she's the first time they had written a piece about the brand and they called you ambitious. And that apparently really bothered you.

Well, it bothered me in the way that it was asked. It was not. It was asked in a way that at the time I sort of was put off by that question and I just felt like it was kind of a rude question. You thought the concept of the notion. of being ambitious was, you know. Distasteful for women. You felt that way.

That was how you were programmed to think. I think we, I think it was, it was in the ether that way back then, that it was okay for men to be ambitious, but not okay for women. And I got a phone call from a friend of mine in business. And it was until she mentioned it to me that I should embrace the word ambition and not shy away from it, it never occurred to me. And as soon as I heard it put that way, it struck me as something that I wanted to change and wanted to correct in myself because I also shied away from that word. And I wasn't embracing my own ambition. And I wasn't saying thank you. Yes, I am ambitious. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, ambition is obviously a critical element of, of, of,

building a company and a brand. And so let me ask you about ambition in 2004. When you opened that shop and you talked about to maybe people you really trusted about what it could be, what did you imagine in 2004? Well, I imagined something big and I don't know why, but I felt that I wanted to create a company that reached a lot of women. And I wanted to build something globally. But it was pretty frenetic. It was, you know, a lot of just moving in all directions and just trying to keep up. I never slept. And it was being a mom, I was working out of my apartment for the first two years. We didn't have an office. So it was doing everything in our kitchen or in our living room. It was taking my kids to school and then getting on the phone until four in the morning,

falling asleep on the phone. You know, we ended up having maybe 14 or 15 people working out of our apartment. So I was also contacted from the first day by Bergdorf-Gudman. They wanted to buy. They wanted to buy. And so they came into my apartment to see the two racks and the accessories. And that was the beginning of our wholesale collection. It was the most exhausting year and following by 18 other years. But it's, it was, it was crazy and it was a whirlwind. You got a pretty awesome opportunity a year in when Oprah called, or Oprah's producers called, to be on for the next big thing that she was doing on fashion, which is amazing. You went out to Chicago to be on the show. Well, I thought it was a joke, first of all. You know, my brothers and I are

constantly playing tricks on each other. So I thought this was a total joke. But I realized it wasn't after a moment. So I was completely blown away and said yes. And it was the beginning of a new chapter for us. And did that, I mean, this is 2005, so it's still early e-commerce days. And I have to assume that e-commerce wouldn't become a significant part of your business for a few more years after that. But did that have an effect?

Was there a spike in people ordering stuff online? Yes, and we were so fortunate that we had e-commerce because had we not, it would have been a very different conversation probably, because it really propelled us in a way that I never could have imagined. She told us to back up our site. We had 8 million visitors in our first, almost second year in business. I'm curious about how you felt or responded maybe internally to some of the, let's say, criticisms or sniping that began early on. Right. Here we are almost 20 years since you launched this brand, an enduring brand, a major global brand, which we're going to trace over the course of this conversation. But initially, when you launch, there were, you know, there were people saying, well, you know, this is a socialite or this is a, A vanity project. A vanity project.

This is a wealthy couple who just, you know, and it's going to die. And did you feel like you had to prove something when you would hear that? Well, I mean, okay, I can't say it wasn't hurtful because it was. That said, I mean, literally I hear it every five minutes from my parents. Negativity is noise. Buckle up, thicken your skin. This is going to be a roller coaster. I mean, I had those conversations.

I knew what I was getting into, and I'd also had those snipes before, and it definitely got to me at times. And my mother is my North Star, and whenever it would get to me, I would call her, and I hear, you're Torrey Robinson, don't you know who you are, even just when I was little, but always building me up, and my brothers and my family, they were like my strength. And, you know, when you go back to the concept of a lot of money, there's perception and reality. And I wouldn't say we had a tremendous amount of money at the time when we launched this company. And it was not something we took lightly. It was a big risk. It was a big risk. And I really tuned it out. And I learned to tune it out even more. And I think it's a very freeing concept when, You don't listen and you don't read and you just keep your head down and keep going and believing in yourself. And, yeah, I mean, you know, occasionally, like we'll all hear from somebody who will say, oh, you know, how I built this. Guy Raz didn't start a big company. And so what does he know about business, right?

There were also people who said, well, Tori Burch is not a designer. What does she know about design? Oh, my God. So many things like that. And by the way, I didn't even think of myself as a designer either. So there you have it. I was the hardest on myself. So I would say not until about four years ago did I consider myself a designer and proud to say it, even though I loved, I worked with incredible designers over the years. But personally, I'm the hardest on myself. So yes, she wasn't a designer. People would come up to me and say, do you go to the office. I mean, I'm working 13-hour days. So for me to hear something like that is pretty shocking. Let me come back in just a moment. Tori faces a crisis when the most important partnership in her life falls apart. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. So it's 2006 and two years into the business. Tori Birch, the brand, has already gotten a boost from being on Oprah, but Tori Birch, the founder, is still doing everything she can

to build momentum. We also built it in a very scrappy way. We were doing trunk shows. I was taking suitcases of product to Greenwich and to Atlanta and to Palm Beach. And I would go places where I had fans. They would host a party. They would host a party. I was literally like Avon.

I was kind of always obsessed with the Avon model. And it was kind of they were becoming in term brand ambassadors. And it was becoming word of mouth. And it was just building like that. I want to ask you about what is now sort of an iconic shoe that you designed came out in 2006, which was named after your mom. It was called the Riva. Lots of people listening know that shoe. It's a ballet flat with the gold.

old double T medallion, like on the top of the shoe at the top of the foot. And that went crazy. That shoe just, tell me about the design of that shoe and how it landed. Like, what was it about that moment in time and that design that just like met? You know, like it wasn't a heel. It wasn't a pump. It wasn't a, you know, people were buying stilettos. It was sex in the city. People were right, right. Right. They were buying Manolo Blonics. It was almost the opposite. It was about comfort and it was about this concept of a ballet flat. And I always felt that a ballet flat was super classic. And I'll never forget it because Bridget Klein, who had joined our company from Michael Corr, she became our president. And she would eventually become your president, I think.

And I'll never forget her boss at the time, John Idol told her it was career suicide coming to work for us. I was in this meeting with Vince Camuto. And he was a footwear manufacturer. Sure, he had its own collections, but he had called us because he was interested in a licensing deal. And I rightfully also, you know, probably with Chris too, we weren't excited about licensing in general. I wanted to be extremely careful about licensing. Because it would dilute the brand or something? It was dilutive, and I had seen so many wonderful brands do too much licensing, and it scared me. So we set up a production agreement.

It was a very different kind of deal. So we talked to Vince about this concept of this ballet flat, and I had this idea of our logo being the design element, not necessarily a logo. So I put it on our toe and on this deconstructed, super comfortable shoe. And that was the beginning of the Riva Ballet Flat, which then all of a sudden just was worn by Jessica Alba and Cameron Diaz.

and Paris Hilton, Katie Holmes. I could go on and on. How did you, I mean, you were still a pretty small company at the time. And you were well connected because of your experience in the industry. But did you have a strategic way to get those things to those kinds of people? This is pre-influencer. Influencers were actually real humans, like, you know, getting photographed. It wasn't social media.

So did you have a way to get those things to them? Well, I think, again, it was through friends. And we also had a wonderful young girl named Samantha Gregory. She came to do our PR. And we gave it maybe to some people, I don't remember exactly. But it ended up becoming this sort of word of mouth type of thing. And I think that was kind of something that's missing today. Because with instant gratification, of all this social media, you don't have that concept of building and sort of learning about something. It's everything's out there. You were, you know, running this business, you know, small team and it's growing and you're getting more attention. And in this very formative time in the business, your marriage collapses. Your marriage ends. You and Chris split.

Tell me what was happening. I mean, it was the most difficult period of my life. And, you know, to have a marriage fall apart when you have six children that are all very young. And our parents were great friends and our families were completely intertwined. Like, both of our families are from Philadelphia. Right. And they became very close. Wow.

So I was very close with my sister-in-laws and my brother-in-laws and all the cousins. And I'm a huge family person. So you can imagine it was excruciating. And the boys were really young. They were, Zoya was probably four and Henry and Nick were seven. And then I had my stepdaughters that were all in their teens. And they were like my kids also. When I married Chris, I made the decision that I would treat all of our kids the same.

And so to go through something like that and do it in a public way when you're the most private person and wanting to protect your kids and your family, it was incredibly difficult. How did you compartmentalize the personal side of, and it's obviously a professional side too because Chris was involved with. the business and, you know, was Tori Birch, right? And so how did you kind of compartmentalize what was happening in your personal life and then show up to work and run the business and smile? Yeah, it was, one thing I am good at is compartmentalizing things. And I would say, even though that's a strength, this was incredibly difficult. Yeah. I think everyone likes to get this scoop on what's going on with divorces and, you know, it becomes everyone's story. And I just, you know, for me, it, I really do live my life where I disengage and when with that kind of like gossip.

And particularly when you're the focus of the gossip, it's not fun. I had Vanity Fair writing stories on me. And also the company was taking off. So you had this like, family type of business that you had employees you wanted to protect, you had your actual family you wanted to protect, you wanted to protect the business, and protect yourself. Because when you're being written about, it's hard. That said, I found the inner strength and courage, and my mom always said to me, and dad, that you wake up and tomorrow is a whole new day. And I kept thinking that The tomorrows took longer than I'd hoped. But it was how I looked at it.

That next year, your father passed away as well. I mean, I can't imagine how just challenging of a time that was between the end of your marriage, your dad passing away. I know you were really close with them and running the business. Yeah, I would say my father passing away, as he said, I get children. up because that was probably hands down the hardest out of anything. And it was just, you know, he had been sick, but it was, he was better and he was getting better. And then he had a heart attack. So it was incredibly sudden. And it was just on top of everything, but it really just made everything pale in comparison. It just was, I saw the toll. It was taking on my mother. And,

you know, listen, he lived a great. long life, but he was still my dad. And, you know, it was, I was just not expecting it. One of the decisions that you took in the period of time after your split, and what was going on was you had your brother, Robert, come and join the company, and I'm curious about that. I mean, it seems like you really... You can imagine the conversations with Chris. I mean, it also seems like you really, you've always kind of leaned on, on, you talk a lot about your mom and, of course, about your dad, but your dad was gone. And it seems like particularly Robert your brother was like a rock too. Yeah. He's been a second father figure to me. He's nine years older and he's always been a pillar for me, a rock, as you said. He's also brilliant. And when I finally convinced him. He's always been a pillar for me, a rock, as you said. He's, he's also brilliant. And when I finally convinced. him to come on board and be part of the company. He was doing other things. He was working on,

I think, selling a company. And so I was so grateful that he came. And not only, as it turns out, has he been in-house legal, a new business development. He's helped me build the business over the years. And he's like, he also personifies our culture. In 2009, you were finally able to launch that foundation that you wanted to launch, the Torrey-Burch Foundation. And tell me about the idea behind it. What did you want it to be? Well, so I wasn't exactly sure in the beginning of when I started the company. I knew I wanted to help women and children.

And what I realized is that I was an entrepreneur and there were a lot of exceptional women in business that weren't as a lucky enough to have the access that I had. And so I thought maybe that I could help women get access to all kinds of things, whether it would be capital or each other or other business leaders. And so in 2009, that was what we started. And even though we were doing a lot of work, I wanted real numbers. So we partnered with Bank of America to help women get access to low, lower interest loans and their commitment of $100 million was something that I was so excited about. And that's something that I, as a leader in business, would love to impart on startups and other businesses that doing good is good for business. And that's something that in the early days,

I was pretty much laughed out of the room. And when I talked about building this global lifestyle brand so I could start a foundation. I was told never to say that. And that business and philanthropy don't go hand in hand. And I was told that more than 10 times by many people. And so to see that sea change happen today is very gratifying. All right. Around, I think around 2011, you had, you and Chris had separated, but he was still, he still owned a significant amount of the company. And one of the, I think, I imagine the challenges was he launched his own apparel brand in 2011 called Sea Wonder. And I don't know, what was your feeling when that, because it opened a store. Yes. And did you, were you aware that it was going to happen? Was

it a surprise? I was aware he was working on a concept and I was fully supportive of that. until I went to see the store. And that was the first I had seen anything that he was working on. And what did you think when you saw the store? Yeah, I thought it was a big problem because it was taking cues from our brand and doing it in a way that would be damaging from our intellectual property standpoint. Basically, it looked like Tori Bird stuff. I mean, I would say it sort of looked like some of our stuff. And it was close enough that it was a big problem.

So this, I guess, is in sort of the midst of a period of some back and forth kind of sniping and challenges. And Chris is not here to – I've met Chris before and he's not here to defend himself. So I'm going to try to step in as best I can. But imagine from his perspective he's thinking, well, you know, yeah, I've got a lot of experience. doing apparel and I'm entitled to start my own brand, but he still owned a significant stake in Tori Birch and I'm assuming was was on the board or had, you know, some influence there. He was on the board. What did that mean? I mean, did you have conversations with him and say, hey, you know.

This is a problem. And we need to deal with it because this doesn't work. And he's sitting in board meetings and having proprietary information and starting something that would be brand damaging. So we wanted him to change his concept and then he sued us. He sued me personally and my entire board. And I imagine this was fodder for the press. Oh, they loved it. Right. It was like a dream come true for the press. Yeah. And so all of a sudden you're once again in the press for the wrong reasons or reasons you didn't want to be in. No. And so at that point, presumably, you kind of did not communicate much. I mean, we had to because we also had young children and a lot of children.

But, I mean, we both tried to parent the best we could. I mean, litigation in any circumstance is stressful. But, you know, companies and leaders are kind of, they have to expect it sometimes. And you got to just march on. But it, but it, but not from within. Not within. It's different. And also, I, I had to protect our company and our employees.

You can imagine it was confusing. So you guys countersuit. Yes, we did. And your counter suit basically, I think, said, hey, this is a knockoff brand. And you guys are getting ready to go to court. Yeah. And luckily, we didn't have to. Luckily, you didn't.

Luckily, you settled. By the end of the year, you settled. Literally, we were in Hawaii. I'll never forget it. My brother didn't leave a hotel room for probably two weeks. He hadn't shaved. And we were lucky enough to find two extraordinary partners to buy Chris out. And basically, it was in everyone's interest that this did not go to trial. Yes. It would have just been a complete waste of everything. So that was it. Chris, at that point, he sold his shares or most of his shares. Yeah.

And that was something that was a relief. I think bringing BDT Capital and General Lannick in was an incredible result. These are the partners that came in and bought his shares out. They're the private equity partners that bought Chris and some other people out. But I would say it was challenging. I am happy to say recently, like four or five years. ago, we are the best of friends. We've gotten through the mess of everything.

He told me it was a 10-year misunderstanding, which I had to laugh. All right. So now you are fully, I mean, it's sort of pretty much resolved, and you can focus on the business. By 2013, you had 54 stores, $800 million in sales. Today, I think it's closer to 350 stores. and there's something interesting about the stores too that, like, I don't know if all of them do this, but I know that they would have like mini-friges stocked with beer and soda. They'd have iPads for kids.

So tell me about that, about having all those things in the store. I mean, I've always wanted it to be welcoming. And I think in retail sometimes that's not always the case, that customers are intimidated. And so I always thought it would be great to have an environment where people could stay and get to know our sales team and sort of get their stories as well. And I think you get a lot of insight into the customer that way. So we tried to make it an environment that even from the beginning that you felt like you were walking into a living room. And when you, I mean, when you sort of stepped down to see. CEO, and that happened in 2018, and now your husband, Pierre E. Roussel, is the CEO, and he was,

obviously, we're together before he was CEO. And he came from LVMH, where he was a CEO there. And you were CEO for, I think, 14 years or something like that. It's a long time for anyone to... Well, it's too long in retrospect. And you know what I realized is I learned my passion. over the years, and it wasn't operating a business. It was really designing the product and the creativity. And being able to be focused just on design and the product creation, I think has been transformative for the business and for the product for sure. I mean, it's, I went from me spending 30% of my time on it to 100%. And I do feel that we're just hitting our stride. Obviously, starting an enduring brand in any category is really hard. But if you were

like advising somebody who wanted to start an enduring fashion brand today, I mean, could they take your playbook and do that today? Or is it, is that just the business changed so much? Yeah, I mean, I think there's elements of our playbook, but certainly they need a new one. And I think that we need a new one. And we always need a new one. And we're always, we have our core strategy. And that's not changing, but the world is changing so quickly. And we need to be evolving and changing with it and be intellectually curious and not just jump on everything. Just think about what's important that applies to our business. Tori, do you imagine a day when you might sell this company or do you see a future where it's like more like Esté Lauder where Tori.

which is a family business in perpetuity. You know, I just, I don't know the answer to that. I'm so not ready to sell this company or I hope that we're here for a long time. And Pyrr even I love working together. We love working with the team that we have. And we have so much we want to do. So I don't think about selling the company. That's not something that I'm actively thinking about.

it's a luxury to be private. Yeah. When you think about this journey that you've had and where this brand and businesses today, how much of it do you think has to do with the work and the skill that you brought and how much would you attribute to luck? I think it's definitely both because there's been a lot of luck along the way, and I'm an extremely superstitious person. And so I realize that.

But there has been such a tremendous amount of work that has gone into this company by so many people and me included. So I think they go hand in hand. And I think that we always need a little luck, and I'm hoping that that continues. But I don't see a world where we're not working and doing inspiring work, but it's hard work. That's a head.

That's Tori Birch, founder and executive chairman of Tori Birch. Just one more question for you. When you are, when you're not wearing Tori Birch, who do you wear? Oh, well, I do wear a lot. In fact, I just went to the Met and I wore Chanel by Carl Lagerfeld. By the way, when you go, like when you see people wearing costumes like Jared Lato wearing a cat suit with a giant cat head, How does he sit down for dinner? I know.

Actually, they have a lot of trouble. Even one of our dresses, I felt badly, because it's quite large. How do they do that? Is he holding the cat head at the table? Well, no, I probably think the cat had a chair next to him. I don't know that for sure because I wasn't seated next to him. But the creativity is pretty spectacular. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. and it's totally free. This episode was produced by J.C. Howard with music composed by Rumtin Ereblewe. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Catherine Seyfer. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Sam Paulson,

Liz Metzger, Alex Chung, Elaine Coates, John Isabella, Chris Messini, and Carla Estevez. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.