How I Built This with Guy Raz - Whole Foods Market: John Mackey (2018)

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

In 1978, college drop-out John Mackey scraped together $45,000 to open his first health food store, "Safer Way." A few years later he co-founded Whole Foods Market — and launched an organic food revolution that helped change the way Americans shop. PLUS in our postscript "How You Built That," we check back in with Steve Humble, whose company Creative Home Engineering makes hidden secret passageways in people's homes ... just like in the movies. (Original broadcast date: May 15, 2017.) See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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made it feel less like a visit and more like we were actually living there. Plus, taking a trip is the perfect time to host your space on Airbnb. Your place with all of its personal touches and its amazing location could make someone else's vacation even better. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.ca.com slash host. Hey, everyone. So it's Thanksgiving week, and at some point, some of you might be killing time in a long line at the grocery store. So we figured it was the perfect moment to rerun the story of how one grocery store, in particular, got started. This episode first ran back in May of last year. Oh, and one more thing. On Thanksgiving Day, this Thursday, we're going to be posting another interview from the How I Built the Summit

in San Francisco. It's my live conversation with Adam Lowry and Eric Ryan of Method, and they're going to be talking about the chemistry of partnerships. Okay, here's the show. Venture capitalists are like hitchhikers with credit cards, and as long as you take them to where they want to go, they will help you for the gas. But if you don't take them where they want to go, they will try to hijack the car and throw you out on the side of the road. So I did not trust the VCs. I liked them. I didn't trust them. I did not want them to take control of the company. So I thought, we're going to go public, and then we're going to get the hitchhikers out of the car. From NPR, it's how I built this, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists,

and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz, and on today's show, How life in a vegetarian commune inspired John Mackie to start Whole Foods, and with it, an organic food revolution that changed the way Americans shopped for groceries. If you happen to step into an organic food co-op in the 60s or the 70s, you would probably walk past aisles and aisles of bulk bins full of beans and brown rice and dried fruit. There were no big brands, no Stonyfield Farms or Nature's Path, no Amy's. or annies, and the people who shopped in these stores, they were among a teeny, tiny handful of Americans who even knew what quinoa or kale were. And they were mostly counterculture types, hippies,

back to nature folks, my mom. And yet all of these people were at the leading edge of a food revolution that would start to sweep the country in the 1990s. And that revolution was largely propelled by Whole Foods. And even though that company inspires pretty strong, strong opinions. You've got the fanboys and the haters. There's no denying that it's had a monster sized impact on the way we eat. But the person who is partly responsible for this revolution, well, here's what John Mackey grew up eating. I would start today with cocoa puffs and milk pop tarts. Very picky eater as well. So hamburgers for lunch with nothing on it. Certainly no vegetables on the hamburgers, maybe fried chicken for dinner or macaroni and cheese out of a can or a box.

Yum. This was the era where stay-home moms were so thrilled about the great innovations that could happen like TV dinners. Yeah. You could frozen TV dinners that you could just pop in the oven and voila, you'd have a meal for your family. Where were you in life when you first discovered food? like real food. Yeah, my food consciousness awakening really occurred when I was about 23. And I moved into this vegetarian co-op in Austin called Prana House.

I was definitely interested in the counterculture. I thought I'd meet interesting women as well. So I thought it was a, I was an adventure. Yeah. I expanded my diet tremendously. I did become a vegetarian. Then I became the food buyer for that co-op. and then I had to get a job and I went to work for a small natural food store in Austin called the Good Food Company.

And wow, I was launched on my path. I loved everything about natural organic foods. I liked cooking. I liked retailing it. And I thought this is something I could really be passionate about. Okay. At this point in your life, you did not, like, you didn't have a college degree, right? Like, you kind of dropped out of college.

Yeah. So when I was about 20 years old, I was on track to get a degree in philosophy from the University of Texas. But I ran into a course that was a required course that I needed to complete. I didn't like the course. I didn't like the books that I was required to read. I didn't like the professor. And then one day, the battle was over, and I stood up. And in the book I was reading or trying to read, I threw on the ground.

I'm not going to read this book. Yeah. And then I just began to read books and take courses that I was interested in. So I ended up with 120 hours of electives that were just courses I was interested in. But I took control of my life. I began to be authentic and true to myself. And that led me into this whole natural foods world. So when you show up into this in this co-op, you don't have a college degree.

I'm assuming it's kind of like a hippie type of place. Yeah, it was definitely a hippie place. Your parents are super excited and proud of the decisions you've made at this point in your life at 23? No, my parents were very worried, very unhappy. The very last conversation I ever had in my mother in 1987 was on her deathbed, and she asked me to go back to school and make something to myself. And I was a grocer. I was a hippie grocer.

And she said, you have a fine mind, John. Why are you wasting it as a grocer? or go be a doctor or a lawyer, do something with your life that makes a difference. And I said, I'm doing something in my life that makes a difference. She said, you're just a grocer. And I said, mom, grocers are great. So what was it like?

What was it like working at that health food store? I loved it. I mean, the store wasn't very big. It was only a couple thousand square feet. But the retail business was really fun. I mean, first of all, I'm surrounded by food, which I'm fascinated by, with other people that I'm working with. You know, there are seven or eight of us working for the store, and they're also equally interested in food.

There are people that you get to know over time in a small store with not, you know, not that many customers, and you develop relationships with people, and you serve them. And I just thought that was like super fun. I knew I could do this. This seems within my realm of competency. And then I worked there about six months, and when I some idea grew in my mind, which is, this is what I want to do with my life. I want to open my own store. I went back to the co-op and talked to my girlfriend, Renee. She was four years younger than me, so I think I was like 23 and she was like 19.

And she got super excited about it. I often wondered if Renee had said, that's a stupid idea. It'll never work how my life might be different now. But she was very excited about it. And we began to plot out opening our own store. So how did you even get started? Well, that wasn't easy. I make a joke about it now that an entrepreneur is a little bit like a panhandler

except that they're selling dreams to people. We raised the money because, like most entrepreneurs, friends and family, we thought we needed $50,000 to start the store, and we could only come up with $45, but we decided we could make do with it. And my initial stake was $10,000. That's the most I ever owned at the company. company and 10 of the 45,000. And I borrowed all of that from my father. So with that money, you were able to open up the first Whole Foods?

Well, the original store was called Safer Way. I think Safeway, but Safer Way. And truthfully, we were always hoping that maybe Safeway would sue us. It would be good publicity. And all those electives I had in school, none of them were business classes. No real business experience. Renee didn't have any experience. The time we opened the store, she was 20, 21. And we opened a store in an old house, not even on busy road. It was just like we just thought this was a super cool house. So we had a store on the first floor, a vegetarian store, and we had a vegetarian restaurant on the second floor or a cafe.

And then we had an office and we lived on the third floor. If you were to walk through Safer Way, what would you see? on the shelves. Was it like bulk products and like beans and was there meat? Was there sugar? No, there was, so we didn't, we were pretty pure. We didn't sell sugar. We didn't sell meat. We were selling real foods. We were selling bulk foods and produce. And yes, definitely, everybody was a hippie. But we had about, I don't know, counting the people in the cafe, so a lot of them working part-time. We probably had 20 people working. They're 15 to 20 people. So were you scared? I mean, you were still a kid.

No, I wasn't scared at all. You thought this was going to work. Well, when you're, again, when you're 24 or 25 years old, you don't have so much to lose. I wasn't married. I didn't have any kids. For my case, the worst case scenario was I would disappoint a lot of people and I'd do something else in life. It didn't. For me, it was a grand adventure. Starting in business is fun.

It's fun because you're engaged and you're, you're, you're engaged and you're, you're, You're passionate about it, and the whole dream just sort of swept us along. We didn't know what we were doing, but we learned very quickly, and we got better. You must have burned through that $45,000 pretty fast. We did. We actually lost half of it in the first year. Oh, wow. We lost $23,000 the first year.

Were you freaking out? No, but the investors were. I bet. Yeah. My dad was freaking out for sure. But I just began to read books. I read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. I have read hundreds, possibly thousand books on business since the beginning. I also, I'm an entrepreneur, so I try things. But if something doesn't work, I stop doing it. That enabled us to learn quickly. And we did make a small $5,000 profit in our second year. And how did you do that? I started managing our costs better. I started buying better. I started buying better. less spoilage, better management of labor hours.

You know, the very basics of retail we didn't really know, and we had to figure it out. And who were your customers at Safer Way? Were they just like local hippies in Austin? Or did you also have like sort of, you know, Austin High Society people? So one of the jokes I tell is because I run into people all the time that tell me they were original Safeway customers. I say, you know, if half the people. that said they were original safer way customers had been there. We never, we'd have five times the sales we ended up having. It's kind of like the number of people that went to Woodstock,

right? But now they were all, they were all young. These were people, this was the counterculture, and part of the counterculture was they wanted their own stores. They didn't want to go to the traditional big supermarkets, a very alien experience for them. I mean, so obviously it sounds like you guys were doing pretty well. When did you, when did you start? thinking about, you know, expanding. Well, after about when I began to make money the second year, I began to realize that Safer Way was too small. And I just thought we needed to have a bigger, better location.

So I began to dream about opening a real grocery store where you could do all your shopping there. Yeah. So we found this location. It was this old nightclub on a big strip road in Austin Lamar that it had. burned down to the ground, it had been a nightclub. So I first had to try to sell our board on it and try to get more money. And they said, this is crazy. You lost half the money the first year. And this is great. You're making money now. But why don't you just stay there for a few years? And then,

you know, we'll see. It's like, no, we're really got to do a bigger store. We're going to get out competed. We're not well positioned competitively. Yeah. But they weren't buying it. And more or less, they said, look, we don't want to put any more money in, but maybe you could find somebody else. else to invest. The strategy there being, no one else would be stupid enough to invest in this company with this, you know, crazy entrepreneur who hasn't been successful yet. So I began to hustle anybody I knew that had money. I'd already, you know, people that knew people I met. And there was a guy I was playing basketball with that one day we'd finished playing pickup basketball and he got into like a BMW and drove off. And he's the same age as I was. And I said,

What does Jay do? And they said, Jay doesn't do anything. Jay's a millionaire. He inherited a bunch of money from his parents. Well, I gave Jay a call the next day. And it just turned out that Jay had kind of his own food consciousness awakening and started shopping it, Safer Way. And Jay said he would put $50,000 in.

So I was like, wow, okay. Went back to our board and said, I got a guy that's going to put $50,000 in. And they were in shock. And several of them decided they wanted to kick more money in as well. Wow. So what happened? So we rented that burned out location. And the story there is also kind of interesting because the owner of that building was this guy named Ben Powell and had been in his family. He lives. He's an attorney living in Houston at that time.

And I had to go and sell him on doing this natural food supermarket in his building. I pitched him on it, and he started laughing kind of towards the end of my pitch. And I said, well, Mr. Powell, what are you laughing at? And he said, John, I mean, this sounds like something you'd seen in a movie, a kind of a corny movie. He said, John, you are so full of enthusiasm. You think you can conquer the whole world. Well, life's going to teach you different, son. But you remind me of myself when I was.

young. Let's do your god-darn natural food supermarket. And so we were able to get that store open. However, while we were building it, one of my friendly competitors that had opened up after Safer Way was called Clarksville Natural Grocery. And I really love the two entrepreneurs that were doing that Craig Weller and Mark Skiles. I thought these are good guys. They work really hard. They got a good store. and I pitched them, look, we're going to open this natural food supermarket, one of the first natural food supermarkets anywhere in the world. Why don't you do it with us? Why don't they join you instead of being competitors? Wow.

Exactly. Join up. It's going to be so much fun. By the way, if you don't, we're only a mile away from your site, your store. You're going to have trouble competing with us. Wait, you told them, you basically said to them, hey, this is going to be great. Let's work together. And if you don't, we're going to crush you?

No, I didn't say it that way. because sometimes funny thing is when I've told this story, that's how it gets interpreted in the media. Of course, I didn't threaten them. I mean, I said, we're only going to be a mile away. We're going to have this big store. It's going to be harder for you to compete. Why don't we do this together? Did they have any of their own conditions?

Yes. One of the Craigsman-Marx conditions is we have to make this a real store. We have to sell meat and we have to sell beer and wine and we have to sell coffee. We can't just be completely a veggie-ed. an idealistic store, we don't want to partner with you. And I'd already thought Craig and Mark's store was very successful, and I talked to a lot, a lot of the customers cross shopped. And they all wanted us to loosen our product standards to make it more a real grocery store. And it was kind of like, you know, if we're going to eat these foods, then we need to be able to, we should sell them.

So that was a compromise that was made that turned out to be the right. compromise from a business decision perspective. And so the funny thing was they had trouble making up their minds about it and they'd come down after they'd close their store up and our store was being constructed. And then literally like two weeks before our store was set to open, they had seen enough and they said, we're in. And so we had to really scramble to, now that we had to try to integrate our team members together and we had to change the name.

And I'm assuming this is where Whole Foods is going to come in. Well, we started with the name Market. We are a market. And then it was like, what kind of market are? We're a food market. What kind of food market are we? We're kind of a natural foods market. Well, that seems kind of generic.

We call ourselves natural food market. Well, we're kind of an organic food market. Yeah, but we don't have just organic. We can't call ourselves an organic food market. And we saw what were we selling Whole Foods? And that was it. Whole Foods Market. That's how I came up with our name.

And the store was an immediate success. People sometimes ask, how long did it take the first Whole Foods Market to be successful? And the answer, true answer is it took until about 3 o'clock in the afternoon on the first day. Wow. Was that just because of luck? Or was that just because of there was this instant clamoring? There's always an element of luck and success in life. Yeah.

You know, we, one of the reasons I wanted to merge with those guys was not only because I liked them and thought they could help us, but I thought, you know what, if we can get Clarksville and safer way in here, we'll have almost enough sales between the two stores to break even. And then if we get other customers, we'll, we'll never look back. But again, people were so excited about this first store. It was, it was amazing. And we didn't do any advertising. We just opened the doors. But the word of mouth was incredible. The whole Austin kind of counterculture hippie community knew about it immediately.

Wow. And did it just keep going like that from that point on? No. Like nine months after we opened, this is now in May of 1981, Austin had the worst flood that it had in about 100 years. And our store was located in the 100-year floodplain. So we were actually aware we were in the 100-year floodplain. But when I said, well, what does that mean?

It says, well, about every 100 years, you're going to have a flood. I said, okay, I'll take that chance. I think it was a Sunday night. There been a lot of rain during the weekend, but then it just really started to rain on Sunday. And I had gone home and was at friend's house, having dinner. And Renee started to call and said the water's beginning to rise.

You know, what do we do? And I said, take the bulk bags and pile them up in front of the doors inside the store, because that's where we thought the water would come in through the doors. And actually, it kept the water out until they got up to about four feet. Wow. But that store was not designed to be a submarine. And so when the water got up to about four feet, the sheer weight of the water basically broke through the glass of the doors. And it just came in like a tidal wave.

Yeah. And it was a Sunday, and we'd had three days of sales. there was in our floor safe. So I wanted to get the cash out of the store. And I went back. There was no lights. You got to picture it now with all the powers out. It's night.

I'm sloshing around in the back with a flashlight. And there are actually people wandering around the store, looters that were wandering around the store. And I went into the office and I opened up the floor safe. I was able to pull the money out. This was a time when we didn't take, nobody took credit cards. Yeah. More than half our money back. then was just in cash. I mean, I think we had about $100,000. And I'd put it all in this grocery

bag. And I was wandering out the store and this guy comes up to me and he says, hey, buddy, did you find anything good in the back room? And I said, I'm not sure. It was dark. I just grabbed this bag. There were probably something back there for you. Go check it out. And we got the money out and put it in a safe place. And we thought we were pretty much out of business. There were cars floating down the street. We're watching float away. In just a moment, after the flood, and how John Mackey took Whole Foods from Austin to Boston

and eventually to almost every state in America. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the spring of 1981, and John Mackey's first Whole Food store is literally underwater. It had only been open for six months, and they had no flood insurance. I got to picture what the store was like.

This tidal wave of water had come in, and when you have a flood like that, all the sewage lines back up as well. So you have all this bulk food, and we had meat and fish and sewage, and it was just a total horrible mess. And it stunk. Anyhow, we showed up for work, and we started cleaning everything. everything up. And all those other people, I kind of recognize them, but they weren't team members. I didn't. They were customers. We had customers and neighbors, and everybody was pitching in.

Oh, that's cool. And by all rights, hopefully should have died through that flood. And we had to rebuild the store. It was going to cost a lot of money to do that. And we just didn't have the money. So I thought, we all thought we were finished. But every one of the stakeholders rallied. There was a benefit held for the store and the team members. They worked for free. Our bank loaned his money on my signature, which was worthless. And the investors decided to kick in more cash. So we were able to reopen 30 days later.

That just pulled everybody together. We really united around that near-death experience. So did you focus at that point on just getting things in order? No. I wanted to open a second store after the flood. Oh, wow. It was like, we can't. put all of our eggs in a basket that might float down the river, we've got to have a second store.

The second store didn't, it didn't start as well as the first store. It was up in North Austin and it was in the suburbs, kind of away from the counterculture community of Austin and was trying to market to more conventional, you know, suburban people. And it took a couple of years for that store to actually turn its first profit. And then we opened a third store in Austin and South Austin. Now, that turned out to be very challenging for us because that store was too close to our original store and cannibalized it significantly. And together, we started to lose money. And did that, like, cause any tension with your partners? Well, that led to a big debate because one of the partners, Mark, he really didn't want to

grow because we had this gold mine. He just wanted to mine it. Yeah. So the long and the short of it was that Mark sold his interest in the company and went into another direction in his life. So he was the first co-founder to exit. Actually, Renee exited slightly before him because she and I broke up. And she wanted to travel the world and see other places. So she got a new boyfriend and she left. And doing a startup business together either brings you closer together or a rip.

your part. And the case of Renee and I ended up ripping us apart. So then it was just Craig and I left. And I think a partnership is challenged when it gets into hard times. The good times are easy. But did you ever, did you ever think to yourself, maybe they're right. Maybe we expanded too quickly. Maybe I made a mistake. Of course I was thinking that. I mean, I was regretting that opening the South Austin store because, I mean, almost all the sales it got came at the expense of our original store. But I really wanted to grow the business. I'm not saying all the challenges were like, oh boy, another great challenge that's hitting

us really hard, but I've always saw it as, okay, this is a great lesson for me. I can learn something here. I am learning something here. And I learned a lot from those early failures or those early failures, but sort of the early trials. So if you were looking to expand the business, presumably, you would have to raise some pretty serious money, right? Yes. In 1988, we decided we couldn't grow as fast as we wanted to grow from just our retained profits,

tapped out all of our friends and family. There was no angel network, so we needed to raise some venture capital. And this was a time when venture capital was not really very cranked up like it is today. We hired a banker, and we began to try to raise venture capital money, and we got rejected. it again and again and again. I mean, trying to talk to the venture capitalist, they just couldn't get what we were doing. I mean, one guy who turned me down, he said to me, he said, you know, John, I see you got a pretty good business here, but it looks to me like I looked at all the stores, and you're just a bunch of hippies, and you're just selling food to other hippies.

And I don't think that's a very big market. Yeah. And if it's going to spread further, then the big companies are going to take a lot of interest in it. And I don't think you can compete with Safeway. I don't think you compete with these big conventional supermarkets are going to run you out of business. People are still telling me that today. I've been hearing it for 40 years now. But, I mean, he had a point back then, right?

I mean, you're talking about the mid-till-880s. And, of course, I'm sure that guy is kicking himself today. Yeah, he apologized to me about 10 years later, said it was the worst decision he ever made. Were these venture capital companies based in Texas, or did you go to, like, Silicon Valley? Like, where were you looking for money? We did go to Silicon Valley. and we got two based out of Houston. But we were beginning to slowly cross over

because we were not only selling natural organic foods, but our quality of food was better. And so we were beginning to get a more mainstream shopper coming in. And that was beginning to drive some of our growth. So we got two investors from Houston, and we got another one out of Silicon Valley. And then what did that enable you to do to just expand and expand more?

Yes. We sold 34% of the business for an $8.5 million valuation. Wow. So about eight times our earnings or about, I don't know, 20%, 15% of our sales. It's ridiculous the kind of valuations people get today compared to what we could get back in the late 1980s. And is this also when you start to think about going public? Yeah. But venture capitalists,

and they didn't want us to go public. They wanted us to do another round of venture financing. But I was determined not to do another round of venture financing because that would have given them control of the company. And I just didn't trust the venture guys. Venture capitalists are like hitchhikers, hitchhikers with credit cards. And as long as you take them to where they want to go,

they will help you pay for the gas. but if you don't take them where they want to go, they will try to hijack the car and they will hire a new driver and throw you out on the side of the roof. So I did not trust the VCs. I liked them, I didn't trust them, I did not want them to take control of the company.

So I thought, we're going to go public and then we're going to get the hitchhikers out of the car. So it was a little early for Whole Foods to go public or so I was told later on, but we did go public back in 1992 and we raised about $28 million. And so overnight your company was worth what? Overnight we were worth about $100 million when we were public.

And so what did that mean? I mean, did that mean that instantly you had all of this cash and you could actually grow at the pace that you wanted to grow? Yes. The greatest thing about it was we had a currency, the currency being our own stock. We could now go to other companies that were like Whole Foods Market. We were the biggest, but we had other peers.

So you were looking to buy them? Yes. First one was Bread and Circus in Boston. In Boston. I remember that place. Great company. And next we acquired Mrs. Goochess. Remember Mrs. Gooch's?

Yep. And we did that in 93. We did a big one with fresh fields, and they had 22 stores. We acquired them in 1996. Once we had those, we were able to grow much faster. So as your expansion. just moved at a clip, right, through the 90s and into the 2000s. Yeah.

I mean, I have to assume that you also were changing how supply chains worked and how people produced food and I guess created new markets for organic food. That's certainly true. We did. I mean, we didn't do it by ourselves, obviously, because you have farmers. But we created much of the demand. for natural and organic in the United States. Our success did. And that created more farmers and more entrepreneurs wanting to farm organically or more manufacturers wanting to produce organic

manufactured goods. So we helped, we had a huge impact and we still do. Yeah. What what percentage of the grocery market does Whole Foods control today in the U.S.? I think it's about one and a half to two percent. I don't know if we, we don't control that, by the way. Right. Yeah. But about one to two percent of all gross trade shop, which is a lot smaller than I think a lot of people would assume because Whole Foods influence is probably much greater than that I would think. I say we're like a boxer punching above our weight class.

Yeah. I mean, it's surprising. How many stores do you have today across the country? We have about 465. So I want to ask you a question about those stores because you, of course, have heard. heard the joke that Whole Foods is more like a whole paycheck, right? That the prices are so expensive for most people. So, I mean, do you think that's a fair criticism? Well, of course, we don't like that. And that's not a, when that nickname was given to us, it was first giving to us

affectionately by people who loved us. And then it became a club that people would beat on Whole Foods who didn't like us. And there is a kind of a tendency, I think, for people. to think you can get the same quality stuff at lower prices. I don't think people have the same quality. Whole Foods has. I think we have the best quality. So it's about a tradeoff that there's exist between quality and price. And I mean, you've had people who've attacked you as well, because you mean, you've been kind of a lightning rod with some of the things that you've said and written about like climate change and unions that don't, in the views of, I guess people don't don't necessarily seem to jive with Whole Foods.

Well, my take is, of course, the people that know me like me, but people that don't know me and they just read things or hear things, they project. But, you know, I've learned a lot. I've learned that there are like four topics I just don't talk about in public anymore. Yeah, what are they? I don't talk about politics, religion, sex, or GMOs. What is there left to talk about? I mean, I wouldn't even care if people hated me.

It's just that then they try to attack Whole Foods. It's like my baby. Stop picking on my kid. Do whatever you want with me, but leave the kid out of it. You know, John, when somebody, like anyone listening to this who's been to Whole Foods, right? Like, when I walk into Whole Foods, there's a feeling that you get that the company has certain values that I think a lot of the shoppers identify it with. Right. There's, you know, there's there's sort of an attempt to to help make the world a better place and to work with community organizations. And it feels very, I mean, lack of a better word, it feels sort of liberal to a lot of people. And so you can understand why people are interested in the people behind Whole Foods, people like you. They're interested in how you see the world, right? Yes. And I don't know, I don't equate liberal with caring, so I'm not going to get into political argument with you, but there's a meta-narrative about business in our world, guy, and that narrative is that business sucks.

And business is greedy and selfish and exploitative. It only cares about money. But people don't want to believe Whole Foods markets a different kind of company. We are. We're purpose-driven. We're stakeholder-focused. If I'm proud of anything, it's that Whole Foods market has made a difference. And we do care. You know, I'm wondering whether some of the criticism that you've had over the years, you know, even the way Whole Foods does business, has that improved Whole Foods? Have there been times where people have said, hey, you know, what Whole Foods is doing with this is wrong and or protesting? Has it changed the way you guys have actually operated? Yeah, it has. I mean, the most famous example is back in 2003, we were being picketed by animal rights activist that were very unhappy about this particular duck we were selling, which they consider to be a factory farm duck.

But I got into a dialogue with one of the activists, a very passionate young woman named Lauren Ornilius. And I know after about a month or so, she sends me an email and she says, you know, Mr. Mackey, I see after our dialogue that you are a very idealistic person. However, when it comes to livestock animals, honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. You are not well informed on this subject. And, you know, I thought about it. I thought, you know, she's really right. I don't know that much about this personally. I'm just, I decided to become an expert myself. And that summer, summer 2003, I read about a dozen books on how we raised. animals in America. And I was utterly horrified. I guess I'd just been living in denial. It was a complete wake-up call for me. And by the end of the summer, I had made two resolutions. One, I was going to go to be, I was becoming vegan. And number two, I knew Whole Foods needed to do a much

better job, that the accusations that the animal rights people had made about what we were doing were fundamentally correct. We then began a process of bringing in animal activists and Whole Foods people in dialogue. Yeah. And that led to the global animal partnership, which Whole Foods Market sponsored and tried to follow the gap standards for the last several years. John, you still, of course, live in Austin. So I'm assuming that now and again, you must pass by the location of that safer way

store. Do you ever... I go out of my way to pass by it. And do you... What is it, what is it today? It's a school. Oh, wow. It's a school.

and one of my friends started that school. And I got a tour of it a few years ago, and the thing that was so odd, of course, they changed some of it. But I remembered it just like it was yesterday, and I could see where we had our bulk bins, and I could see, because they left the basic structure of it intact. So it was a trip down memory row for sure. John, at a certain point, I mean, you will not run Whole Foods, right?

I mean, you'll move on or retire or whatever. I mean, can the company, can Whole Foods continue without, you know, without the charisma, without your charisma, without your vision? I mean, you founded this thing. I mean, you are running it. Of course, it can. And but, I mean, I do think when the founder, I'm the last founder left. I mean, Craig was the second to last. I think he left almost 20 years ago.

And a lot of the people that I built the business with besides the founders, they were retired. hiring now because they're in their 60s and they've made a lot of money too over the years through Whole Foods. So there'll be no one that ever loves Whole Foods market as much as I love it. Yeah. But building a business is a little bit like having children and watching the children grow up is that you hope your child is healthy and you hope your child is happy and you hope your child has integrity and does the right thing. And I think it's important to have a good founder and entrepreneur, but the great businesses continue to live on after the founder moves. I certainly hope whole Foods is in that in that space.

John Mackey, co-founder and CEO of Whole Foods. And last summer, just a few months after this interview first ran, Whole Foods was purchased by Amazon in a deal worth nearly $14 billion. And please do stick around because in just a moment, we're going to hear from you about the things you're building. Hey, thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for how you built that. And today we're running a story. We first ran about a year.

year ago with Steve Humble. And his story starts at the movies. So there's a scene in Indiana Jones and the last crusade, and you may have seen it, where Harrison Ford is stuck in a room that has burst into flames. So he starts to scoot his chair to the only place that is not on fire, which is the stone fireplace. And then, and I think you know where I'm going with this, the fireplace suddenly spins, and Indiana isn't a whole new room. And this, and this is a whole new room. This room is full of Nazis. So this was kind of a formative moment for Steve. He's a mechanical engineer, and some years ago, he was living in Salt Lake City, renting a big house with some friends.

And there was a spot in the house that was a big stone hearth. And I have always been kind of fascinated with secret passageways. And I thought I could totally make a secret passageway like what I've seen in the last crusade. Because let's face it, how awesome would it be to have a secret passageway in your house? And the more Steve mulled it over, the more he thought, you know, I bet other people would want one too. So the first thing he did was to Google secret passageway building companies. And there was nobody. Absolutely nobody anywhere that could make these secret doors like we're in the movies, you know, motorized and maybe high security stuff.

Now, at the time, Steve was pretty bored at his day job. So he started to dream of creating a business that would build secret passageways. And he called up some contractor friends and he asked, would your clients possibly be interested in something like this? And I got overwhelmingly positive feedback. So eventually, you know, I decided I'm going to do this thing. I quit my job. I had to move in with my parents.

Steve moved to his parents' place in Mesa, Arizona. And he started to tinker in his dad's garage. And it just so happened that an old high school buddy was building a house nearby. So Steve said, hey, why don't I build you a secret hiding place? He had a niche in the wall, like a recess, and he kept a vase in there. And I made it so that when you twist the vase, a painting on the wall opens, and it exposed a fingerprint scanner. And then when you scanned your print, then the niche itself would slide upwards towards the ceiling,

and it was replaced from below by a gunsafe. A hidden gun safe. So at this point, Steve started to market his idea. He got a story in the local paper, and within a year, people started to find him. Like big people, like people you would have heard of, and they're building multi-million dollar houses. And of course, we asked him for the salacious details,

but, well... I wish I could name drop for you, but yeah, I am sworn to secrecy. So anyway, Steve is suddenly in his dream job. He's flying around the world, he's working on palatial homes, putting in vaults and fingerprint scanners and secret doors for people whose names he cannot reveal. I felt a little bit like an imposter. I'd show up at this house where there's this incredible team of talent. But I kept reminding myself that nobody knows how to make secret passageways any better than

I do. Certainly no one's built any more than I have. So I guess I am the expert at this. A custom-made secret door starts at around $9,000. But Steve's recently introduced a cheaper line of his secret doors just $1,500, and they're made to look like anything other than a door. One is a full-linked mirror. One is a bookcase.

One is a wardrobe. And you can install one of these secret doors in front of your spare bedroom or a closet. You hide what you want, and then you trigger the door by remote control. And Steve says he's barely advertised, and he's already selling about one of these a day. I mean, it's on a clear trajectory to surpass our core business. Steve's company is called Creative Home Engineering, and today, those cheaper $1,500 doors are indeed selling faster than the fancy custom-made ones. To keep up with demand, Steve has hired some new employees and has a new factory in the suburb of Phoenix. His company is set to hit $2 million.

in revenue this year. To hear more about creative home engineering or hear previous episodes, head to our podcast page, How I Built This.npr.org. And of course, if you want to tell us your story, go to build.npr.org. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and while you're there, please do give us a review. You can also write to us at hibt at npr.org, and if you want to send a tweet, it's at How I Built This. Our show was produced this week by Rumtin Arablewe, who also composed the music. Thanks also to J.C. Howard, Nor Kudsi, Neva Grant, Sanaz-Meshkampur, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Mia Venkat. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This from NPR.

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