How I Invest with David Weisburd - E42: 6 Hard Questions You Should Ask LPs When Raising Your Venture Capital Fund with Katie Riester

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Katie Riester, Managing Director at Felicis sits down with David Weisburd to discuss venture capital fund strategies, building relationships with GPs, and the math behind venture capital. They discuss the importance of clear communication with LPs, common red flags, and advice for new LPs.

understand where your LP is coming from. If you don't know, spend the first couple minutes of the conversation asking them questions. Hey, like, how many venture investments have you made this year? What does your committee talk about when you bring an investment opportunity to the table for approval? Who actually votes on that? How are these decisions made? How many open diligence projects do you have on your plate right now? Have you ever invested in a solo GP fund? I'd love to hear about that. If you could answer, even get two or three of those questions answered as you're beginning to engage with this person, we'll help you understand how busy they are, what's really important to them. What are the chances this is actually going to turn into a

real investment for you, which allows you to just calibrate your time. And, you know, maybe this is a relationship you're going to spend two years building instead of two months building. For more ideas on how to raise venture capital in this market, make sure to subscribe below. Well, Katie, I've really been looking forward to chatting. Katie Reister of Felicis. Really looking forward to the episode. And you have a very unique blend of experiences. You started off as a senior consulting associate at Cambridge, then you were director of SVB's fund of funds, and now you're managing director and GP of fund of funds at Felicis. Before we get started, I know you have an interesting origin story of how you started at Felicis. You met Aydin back in 2010 when he pitched to you at SVB, and this was prior to the rise of SoloGPs. what gave you the conviction to invest and later

join Aydin? Yes, I will always remember that meeting, sitting across the table from him at SVB Capital. The signals that Aydin gave were so strong that he truly wanted to make his career and the next chapter of his life all about creating a venture capital firm. So a couple of things. One, sometimes very, very simple things. He showed up with this deck and it had our name on it. It said presentation for SVB Capital. That says to me that he took the extra. And remember, this is back in 2010. So for sure, this was a nice paper book. This was not digital, right? This had taken the time to print it, change the name, maybe took him like 10 seconds, but that means something, right? He was thinking about that meeting earlier in that day. Two, he had already decided to work with what I would consider the top

service providers. So top law firm had already contemplated how he was going to manage all of the financial side, the back office, you might think of it as that, and had a really crystal clear story about what he had done on his own, what it meant to him, what he learned, and why now was the right time for him to go out there and raise his first institutional fund. So it was clearly a deeply contemplated next step for him. And he had what I consider to be the evidence to show that he'd been thinking about it. In your portfolio today, you invest in a lot of GPs and you see, as you mentioned, a lot of different strategies. How important is ownership? I know there's this church of high ownership.

Are you a subscriber to this church or do you believe that it really depends on the strategy? I don't think it has to be high ownership. I think it has to be a math equation that works. Ultimately, what we're looking at is to make multiples of the fund size. ideally 3x, ideally 5x, even great if it's more. One of the things that I talk about with other people or even my own family, like, what do you do at work, mom? It's like, my kids should be able to do the math that helps an investor understand if they're going to have the amount of ownership that they need to 3x their fund or whatever, without believing that you are some incredibly lucky person that has somehow picked all the right companies in your portfolio, that's not going to happen, right?

You're going to have dilution. You're going to have failures. So pick some percent of your portfolio that you think is going to work out. Pick a reasonable outcome for these companies and apply your ownership. And if you want to get fancy, apply some dilution to that too. That's kind of the very simple back of the envelope math that people should be doing. So let's talk about the fund of funds. You mentioned you met Aydin in 2010. When did Felicia start the fund of funds? What is the strategic and financial

strategy for the fund of funds? The fund of funds started before I joined. So I joined in 2017. The fund of funds started in 2012. There were a handful of investments made before I joined. I've been making a lot more since I joined because I can focus more time on it. And so today we actually have about 30 firm relationships and about 50 fund positions. In the context of Felicis, these are very small investments, right? So the most recent Felicis fund, as anyone can see on our website,

was over $800 million. So it's about $825 million. The fund of funds portion of that is below 5%, right? So we're working with, in this fund cycle, So, you know, fund cycle is going to last a couple of years, about 40 million dollars. So that's actually a lot for the types of funds that we're investing in, because usually what we're investing in are small funds. I've many times invested in first time funds. I've many times invested in solo GP funds. And the reason that tends to be a match for us is that what we're doing is we're looking for people that are the best at what they do. Similarly to the way that we're looking for the world's best companies, we're looking at people that are the best at what they do. So is the bargain essentially a one-way option in that Felicia's gets access, that kind of how you look at it as kind of a special LP

that could lead a future round, or is it completely kind of divorced from the core strategy? Okay. So I probably should have said this from the start when you asked me, which is actually the top of my umbrella or the top of my filter is I don't want to have to convince someone. If someone's already not into that idea, it's probably not a good partnership. So transparency is a core value of Felicia's. I personally think that going into any relationship, whether it's a business relationship or anything, with just like being really upfront, being really friendly and transparent about what we're up to is the best way to do it. Usually the way I'm

meeting funds is either another LP has introduced me or someone on our team has introduced me. And so it'll go something like this. Hey, Katie, so-and-so has been looking at like all of these deals with us, or we happen to see this person in all these deals. You should talk to them on the fund-to-fund side. So it's already a very warm relationship. It's like, hey, I noticed that you and Sandeep looked at these three deals together or look, we're already invested in these three companies together. Let me tell you about the Fleece's fund of funds program. It's part of our fund. We'll be investing out of our institutional fund. It's not my personal money. It's not any partner's personal money. And the idea here is that we're an LP and you're fine. You can learn

from us. You become sort of just closer to the team in general. There's no special strings. And yes, we would love to look at your portfolio. We would love to talk with you. What is the way that you like to talk to not only your LPs, but other venture capitals that you partner with? Because we want to be like that with you and we want to have this relationship. There are lots of firms like that, actually, where someone's like, hey, maybe this is like a fund to funds candidate, but for whatever reason, they don't like to take other VC money. And then we actually end up doing three deals together, right? Like, that's great, too. I just think it's extra nice when we can be an LP because it allows us to help them in more ways, I would say. Absolutely. You mentioned about partnering with GPs. Tell me about the typical arc of a GP relationship for you. From

start to first check into the fund, how long does that evolution take? And what are the different data points that you look to collect over time from GPs that give you conviction to invest? We'll get right back to the interview. But first, to stay updated on all things Emerging Managers and Limited Partners, including industry trends and insights on how to raise LP capital, please subscribe to our newsletter powered by Carrier Labs, a full-service content marketing firm that's partnered with us on the newsletter. Visit 10xCapitalPodcast to subscribe. That's www.10xCapitalPodcast.com. Thank you. It can go really fast, especially if we're already doing something that's happened several times. Someone is kind of angel investing, maybe raised, opened a fund on angel list. So kind of

is like moving the institutional direction. They're thinking about raising their first fund, but we already have a lot of interaction, right? So that's one where it's easy to just say, hey, we want to be your first LPA. And in that kind of conversation, it's like, hey, I'm not. Basically, it's just the lawyers reviewing the LPA and it's easy. And then the conversation kind of continues on like we have. And then often I'll do as much as I can to help them think about how to build out their pipeline and raise their first fund. And that is like a additional part of the relationship. Other times, it's less clear to me because there aren't as many strong signals coming from our deal team side, right? Like we're doing all these deals together. Let's look at this fund. And it's more of what I will call a typical

institutional LPGP interaction where someone's like, hey, Katie, you should look at this fund. Like I've maybe never heard of it. I can't see any deals in common. There's not a totally clear, maybe the overlap between what Felizis is doing and this fund is doing is like a little more fuzzy. Maybe they're doing a couple of things that we're not doing and we don't want to do. However, and this is the hardest thing for me, however, that person clearly has that spark that I saw in Aiden or that we've seen in other managers where I'm like, this person's going to be around and venture in like 15, 20 years and they are doing something and I want to be part of it.

That's a little bit harder because I think of that more as the more typical LPGP relationship where you're just back in the person because you think they're going to do awesome things. And so that tends to take a little longer for me. And I would say maybe a couple of months, right, as you just sort of understand where they really want to take the fun. You're dealing a lot with fund ones. And one of the things that I think is a little bit absurd is how LPs expect fund ones to have all the check marks from day one, like portfolio construction, follow on. Obviously important questions to consider, but not necessarily questions that one should know coming out of the womb. Do you ever give leeway if you meet with

somebody that has that spark, like an Aiden? As long as I can tell someone is deeply contemplating something, I will always revisit it with them. I think the thing that I've run into a couple of times is when someone doesn't seem to internalize over repeated conversations, that managing a fund is much more than finding and getting into deals. There's so many more parts to managing a fund. Finding and getting into deals is like super exciting and incredibly important, but that is not the only part of the job. So I have found people that sort of repeatedly

like return to that part of the job and just get better and better and better at that and then never build out the rest of that skillset. And then that like, usually it just kind of like falls apart. Let's say you're a great stock picker, a great early stage picker. And of course you are also a great stock picker, a great early stage picker. And of course,

you are also a great one at being picked because it's an active asset class, not like buying in the stock market. So let's assume that you are very good at picking. What are the main ways that you could still fail as an investor? Well, I feel like I've returned to this many times, but it would be a lack of understanding of the simple math equation. And you're going to be wrong, but I'm saying just do the homework, right? Like we've all been there. Even if you don't use all of the math you learned in fifth grade in your life day to day, like this is a time to use it. Just do the basic math using the information that you have today about, hey, you can like get it on PitchBook. Typical venture outcomes. Assume that at some point during your market, the lifecycle of your fund, you will hit a market in which exit events

are happening. It will happen if you wait long enough and make some basic assumptions about the percentage of your portfolio that can be successful, what the exit value for those companies will be. apply the ownership that you think you can actually buy in the market with the money that you have, with the cards that are on the table right now, which I'm using that as a metaphor for the valuation environment, and just do the math. Can you make a 3x fund using some reasonable assumptions? And hey, you can build your upside model, you can build your downside model. If you can't do that, you're probably going to have some negative surprises for yourself. Oh, like I thought one of my companies would get, you know, go public and be worth a hundred billion dollars. Like

that'd be nice. But like, that's your upside case. That's not your base case. So that is a fail. I think here's one that I think is controversial. I actually, so you will hear some LPs say, I want GPs to do what they say they're going to do. I want that too. That would be nice. Hey, I'm building this portfolio. I picked this person as my infra fund. I would like you to go do infra. That was a choice that I made. If people make some adjustments or pivots, I think it's okay. As long as they're clearly communicating that and clearly telling their LPs why they have chosen to make these these pivots. So the fail here would be not communicating that and later looking back and going, oh, yeah, guys, look, this is what I did because of blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, a year later or six months later and everyone's going like, what? You know,

like, how did that happen? I thought you were doing this. Now you're doing this. Like this doesn't this doesn't feel continual to me. So I would say to put it, state it positively, and this is something we haven't really talked about yet, is how to stay in touch with your LPs, how to communicate with your LPs. If the mark is changing on you, you're smart. Maybe you need to adapt, right? Maybe you don't keep doubling down and tripling down on that strategy if it's not working. If you do adapt, it's a, it's a communication with your LPs about why and why you're going to be successful in this new way. Some LPs are really like not into that. They're just like, nope, you said you were going to do this, like you got to do it. But I think that you have to communicate that. Let's talk about that. It's obviously

sensitive situation. So you have your LPAC, you have your LPs. Let's say that it's a minor strategy creep. How should that be communicated to LPs and what are the best practices for LP communication during difficult times? We'll continue our interview in a moment after a word from our sponsor. The 10x Capital Podcast is proudly sponsored by Deal. Most businesses use up to 16 tools to hire, manage, and pay their workforce. But there's one platform that's replaced them all. That's Deel. D-E-E-L. Deel is the all-in-one HR and payroll platform built for global work. Smartest startups in my portfolio use Deel to integrate HR, payroll, compliance, and everything else in a single product. Focus on what you do best. Scale your business and let Deel do the rest. Deel allows

you to hire, onboard, and pay talent in over 150 countries, from background checks to built-in contracts. You can manage an entire worker lifecycle from a single and easy-to-use interface. Click the link in the show notes below to book a free, no-strings-attached demo with Deal today. Minor strategy creep. It's a discussion of,

here's what I'm seeing in the market. More cards are getting dealt. I'm now seeing this. Here's how I think I can take advantage of that. And here's why my skill set still applies here. And maybe if it's really minor, it's maybe like, actually, this strategy is the same, but it's sort of now looks like this, given what my opportunity set is. So an example of that would be there have been different times in the market where sort of the maturity of the company and the cost of the company has become very detached from what people had previously thought of as a seed round or an A round. So if someone got very hung up on

like, I am a seed fund, maybe in today's parlance, they're actually a pre-seed. So I don't view that as strategy creep at all. I just view that as the kind of company that this person had been pursuing, which might have been pre-product market fit, might have been very early, is just now called a pre-seed company. So that's just jargon, right? That's just terminology. That's just talking with people about what's going on in the market. And LPs actually love those kinds of conversations. If you think about a typical LP, they might be actually managing multiple asset classes, right? Like they might be doing a heck of a lot more than just venture. And of their venture program, manager X might be like one of 10 or maybe even one of 15.

So when you think about how many things that person has to manage, has to stay on top of, like their normal day job, interact with their colleagues, you are their view into your space, especially if you're a sector-focused manager. So part of your job should be showing them like, hey, here's what's going on in my world right now. And this is what I see. And this is how I want to take advantage of that. So I actually view that as a really positive communication opportunity. If you're talking about crisis communication, like, wow, something went really wrong here. Like maybe a year in, a GP thinks that they could have been investing 250K checks and earning 3% ownership or something like that, or 5% ownership. And they actually haven't been able to do that once. And they've

invested in 10 companies and they're only able to get in 50K checks and they actually haven't been able to do that once and they've invested in 10 companies and they're only able to get in 50k checks and they're getting one percent ownership like that's a pattern that is a different way of not doing what you said you're gonna do right that's like hey like i'm actually not able to execute this fund in the way that i thought i would it doesn't mean that you can't that it's a fail necessarily but that's that's a different conversation so that is where you're probably reflecting with a smaller, more trusted group of LPs who can still can just like give you some really honest feedback. It's like, what do you think I should do?

Should I sort of reconfigure my fund? Or like, you're probably going to have to talk to some of your peers out there. So those are different conversations, but I think that the data, the data is going to be the data and people are going to see it at some point no matter what and not talking about it. I don't think you want to talk about it too soon because it could just be like, I don't know, like what's going on this quarter or something. But if you start to see data points like stacking up, I would absolutely not wait until your next fundraise to have that conversation. You want to be talking about that on a semi-annual or annual basis. As far as like day-to-day stuff, I think a 45-day cadence is like, hey, we got into this company. You're like, hey, this company did this or this founder, you know, ended up on this list. That can be like all the time as long as it's short and unobtrusive, I would say. When I say unobtrusive, I mean easily consumable is a positive way to say that. But big stuff like the strategy is not working. You want to hit that well before you're asking for money again.

Let's get to brass tacks. You've had quite a portfolio across SVB. You help clients with Cambridge. You now run the fund of funds at Felicia's. What has caused you not to re-up from a fund one to a fund two or fund two to fund three historically every LP goes through this so sometimes I have not re-upped with a GP because Felicis's strategy has sort of moved to a different area so this is a long time like a long long long time ago Felicis did some consumer we actually never really had any consumer funds but if I had I would have told them way early on, hey, guys, you know what? We're not really doing this anymore.

So we're totally here for you. I'm a reference and we won't be investing in your next fund because our fund's moving in a different direction. LPs do that type of thing all the time. It might be that their portfolio got too full. And I think this is something for all the LPs out there, just the same way that I said a few minutes ago, that if things are not going well and it's become a pattern, it's not just kind of like a blip in the market or something went bad today. I think we all have an obligation to tell each other as soon as we know that that pattern is real and that we need to act on it. So if an LP knows like, oh man,

my board really doesn't want me to add on more liquid to my portfolio right now because we have this capital need coming up or whatever, like those LPs should be telling those GPs as soon as possible because they need to replace them in the LP base. So it goes both ways. The other, I'd say there's like obvious bad behavior. I don't think we need to cover what that is like. Let's talk about bad behavior from LPs. This is something you'll never hear on a podcast. What is some bad behavior that you've seen from other LPs? You're welcome to names, but assuming you won't, what is some general bad behavior that you've seen from other LPs that you'd like not to happen in the future? Well, I hit one of them

just there, which is I think that sometimes LPs know that they're probably not going to re-up and they wait until the GP approaches them with a fundraising conversation to let them know. Now, if someone's not sure and they're kind of waiting it out, I mean, I think that's different. But if like, if you know that you can't make maybe it's like a portfolio wide problem, like right now, times are tough, right? It's a different market. And I've had LPs do this to me over the years, right? Like our board has put a moratorium on private investments. I need you to know that. That's great. I can go and say, OK, I hope you come back next time or whatever. And they have come back at times. Right. And I know that's not about me or Felicia. Right. That's just what's going on in the market. And I can

go replace that LP. When someone doesn't do that, often it's because they care so much about the person that they don't want to have a difficult conversation. That just actually is really hard. Another thing they've seen LPs do is use their power to do things and negotiate terms with a GP that are ultimately not in the long-term best interest of all parties. The way that I've always approached this, actually, here at Felicis and I'd say in general at SBB as well, is that life is long, right? We talked about you're going to play a repeating game over and over and over again. Sometimes terms are, there are really important things in terms, like there's tax stuff, like nobody can control the tax. Like that's just what it is. There's

economic stuff. There's stuff that's sort of market and fair. There's control things that are meant to protect people if bad things happen. And that's all really important stuff. And then there's, there are other times when I've seen LPs use terms to control a GP. And this is not about Felicis, by the way, these are about some of the smaller managers that are just starting out that ultimately I think are not great for those fund managers in their long-, negotiating for themselves special access to co-investment rights. And on the surface, that can make a lot of sense. And I'm sure for some LPs, they just love that and they need that to be able to invest in the manager. And that's kind of what makes the relationship work. But ultimately, I think that that constrains a capital ecosystem in a certain way and sort of pushes like certain forces, certain types of relationships

or engagements, which by definition means that either the company or the GP or the overall opportunity to create the pie and make it bigger is being like forced in a certain way. So I don't love that. At the same time, I know it's allowed some great GPs to be able to raise their fund because they've needed to access large amounts of capital. And that's kind of what comes along with it. So I do, I know there are trade-offs, but I would love, and this is wishful thinking, but I would love to see all LPs and GPs enter each relationship as if everyone's going to be successful, if the game would be repeated over and over again. We've been kind of circling this issue of communication, both on the GP side and the LP side,

what is the best practices that GPs should implement in terms of talking to LPs? So I'll take this in two buckets. First one I'll do is you've already got the LP, right? They're already in your fund and now you're doing an investor relations job. And first I'll describe a mindset that will apply to both this and the job of cultivating new LP relationships and hopefully eventually bringing them over as an investor. One of the things that I always encourage people to do is to understand where your LP is coming from. If you don't know, spend the first couple of minutes of the conversation asking them questions. Hey, like how many venture investments have you made this year? What does your committee talk about when you bring an investment opportunity to the table for approval?

Who actually votes on that? How are these decisions made? How many open diligence projects do you have on your plate right now? Have you ever invested in a solo GP fund? I'd love to hear about that. If you could answer, even get two or three of those questions answered as you're beginning to engage with this person, we'll help you understand how busy they are, what's really important to them, what are the chances this is actually going to turn into a real investment for you, which allows you to just calibrate your time. And, you know, maybe this is a relationship you're going to spend two years building instead of two months building. That's really important because one of the things that happens is that people get on the phone or on the Zoom or in the meeting and they just start their pitch.

And then you look at your watch and 25 minutes has gone by and the meeting's almost over. You have no idea if they've ever even invested in the type of fund that you are. They feel like you've talked to them for 25 minutes. So that's, even if it's your existing LP, right? Like, hey, that's how always I start my conversations.

Like what's going on? What's the conversation at your existing LP, right? Like, hey, that's how always I start my conversations. Like, what's going on? What's the conversation at your investment table this week? Is it toxic for an LP to push back on that and be triggered by that? What your portfolio construction is, how many VC investments they're looking to do over the next couple of years? Are those valid questions? And is it toxic behavior by LPs to get triggered by that? I don't know that I would use the word toxic. I would be very surprised if any LP, I mean,

we're all in the investment business, right? Like this is their work. Their work is, maybe their work is actually managing an entire endowment that has many different investments, fixed income, hedge funds, public equity. I would call that a red flag. I'm not going to use the word toxic. You're not going to call it toxic. I'm going to call it toxic. This is my podcast. But I will say the reason I'll call it toxic is because, and Zoe could correct me, but in nearly 100% of cases that people have went and triggered, it's because they're not deploying

or it was just an information gathering call, which I would call bad behavior by LPs, especially without that context. One of the things that actually, that's similar, but completely different that I get really excited is when I meet an LP and they say, hey, just to give you a heads up, we're not deploying till Q3. You know, I know that's going to be a great relationship because when you start with that level of transparency, I know this is going to be a good partner long term. And I tend to invest much more of my time and energy into that relationship than somebody that gets easily triggered by basic questions. Penultimate question. Okay, fine. You brought me to your side. It's

toxic. Okay, great, great. We have to get the podcast ratings up, so that'll help. You've been on the LP side. Now you've been on the GP side. What should LPs know about the asset class? There's a lot of LPs that listen to a show that are just going into venture for the first time. What would be your advice for somebody making their first or second or third or even fifth fund investment in their career? Go in with a very clear vision of what you're hoping to accomplish. Okay. So are you making a couple investments in venture to get your feet wet and learn about the asset class? Because if so, go with something that's probably very mature. They know how to run a venture capital fund.

They maybe even have a dedicated IR person so that you can actually get what you need out of that. Another really great way to play this is to invest in a boutique venture fund of funds and then start to make some bets of yourself, buy yourself a long side of that. So I sort of think of this as like a hub and spoke, right? So if you're just like, hey, I don't have a lot of time, but I really want to up my venture exposure, you know, go for a really great venture focused fund of funds and then start to make, make, you can either expand on the relationships that you have or place your own bets. One thing bears mentioning, the worst thing that an LP, a beginner LP could do,

it also happens to be the number one thing that a beginner LP does, is to choose one or two startups to invest directly because they will, quote unquote, save fees. I've seen a lot of catastrophic events there for a lot of different reasons. If you look at the different skill level needed, investing in a fund is a two out of 10 skill needed, or maybe a three out of 10. I don't want to disparage any fund investors, but investing in an individual company,

especially when you're trying to outsmart institutional investors, because all the hot companies will be oversubscribed. So you're essentially trying to out-compete the Felicias, the Sequoia, the Andreessens of the world, and trying to get that right as a beginner LP, the odds are almost close to zero, not to mention the lack of diversification. So similar to your strategy of investing in a fund-to-fund, as Hanba spoke, I'd say at a very minimum, invest in a basket of funds, invest in several funds. The other thing that I would say is almost a little bit contrarian is that start with a small

ticket size and just get in the game. You can't play poker with fake money. You can't be an investor with fake money. Start with a smaller check size so you can make your mistakes early, but don't become paralyzed and start investing even a little bit in order to start gaining the knowledge that you need to be an elite investor. So on that note, Katie, you've been an incredible guest. What would you like our listeners to know about you, to know about Felicia's and anything else you'd really like to shine a light on? There is one thing that we didn't cover today that I is what keeps me doing what I do and why I really, I really love what I do and feel called to do it, which is that if you think about not every LP, but many of the LPs out there, they're working

for nonprofit institutions. These are mission-based organizations and they are like get to know them a little bit, right? They are usually super fired up by whatever their organization does. Like when I've gotten to know some of our LPs a little better, what I find out is, you know, they work for big fancy name Ivy League institution and what really drives them is they hope that by getting great returns for that endowment, that the organization will become a needs blind educational institution. And that's what drives them. So that type of engagement that you can start to have with LPs, like LPs are doing really cool things. And so hopefully one of the things that both GPs and LPs can access is like the joy of working with other people that are

really motivated by what they do. And that's actually one of the most fun things. That's part of what I love about this fund to fund program too, is I get to be on the other side with GPs. Like I just attended an annual meeting of one of our fund-to-fund investments earlier today, and the person talked about their journey. And he said, I never thought I could do this. And somebody encouraged me to do it. And now I get to build the fund that I always wanted to engage with as a founder. And that is where my joy comes from, is engaging with founders in the way that I always wished that I had been met by my investors. So I think that there's a real opportunity to tap into what drives people

through these relationships, even though a lot of the beginning of this conversation, you're right, is sort of like talking about track records or checking boxes or things like that. So I encourage people to, as soon as it's appropriate, to push past some of that and really understand why somebody is doing something. I think it'll really open up that transparency and that honesty that we've both been talking about in this conversation. Katie, I want to thank you for jumping on the podcast and look forward to meeting soon.