How to Be a Better Human - How to approach the daunting question: who am I? (w/ Brian Lowery)

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

If you take away how others see you, how do you see yourself? Psychologist, author and Stanford Graduate School of Business professor Brian Lowery argues that this question is so difficult to wrap our heads around because what we think of as our individual identity is actually a social construction. In this episode, he and Chris take us on a journey exploring the objective vs the subjective self, the performance of identity and how your view of others has a stronger sway than you realize. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. If you were to ask me as a joke to come up with two questions that we just could not possibly answer in the course of a single podcast episode, I'd probably say something like, what is the meaning of life? Or what defines a person's true self and identity? Those are pretty big questions. Those are philosophical questions.

They're huge. And I would say they're almost comically impossible to answer in under an hour. And yet, today's guest, the psychologist Brian Lowry, he is going to do his best to dig into exactly those questions. I'm not going to say that we come up with a definitive answer by the end of this episode, but I will say that Brian has got me thinking about these really profound questions in new ways. And Brian is such a smart, thoughtful guy. I can't think of anyone who is better at getting deep, but still keeping it accessible and fun. I mean, this is a guy, Brian, who gave a TED talk about how to have a meaningful life, right? That's what he's an expert in. Meaningful lives. It's incredible stuff. Here's a clip.

Life is amazing. Life is incredible. The experiences we have, the possibilities of personal achievement. You could summit Everest. You could create a huge successful business. You could give a TED Talk. And when you're successful, it feels incredible. Success, the flush of excitement, the celebration, and you should celebrate the congratulations, the posting on Instagram, wherever you put your stuff up, it all feels great. But when that fades, when that starts to fade, sometimes slowly, sometimes all at once, a question comes up. Is this it? Is this all there is? We will be right back with more from Brian in just a moment. Don't go anywhere. Today, we're talking with Brian Lowry about meaning, identity, and what makes you, you.

Hi, I'm Brian Lowry, professor at Stanford University at the Graduate School of Business, author of Selfless, The Social Creation of You, and founding co-director of Stanford's new Institute on Advancing Just Societies. You know, Brian, in your work, you think a lot about meaning. You think a lot about self and you think about the ways that we impact each other. In your book, Selfless, you push back on the idea that we have one core unchanging self as an individual. In fact, on page 59, you write, and I'm quoting, I personally reject the idea that anyone has an innate true self. I imagine for many people who haven't read your

book, that's kind of a big, surprising idea. So can you tell us how you do think about what each of ourselves is, if it's not that? Yeah, I think about the self as an amalgamation, a combination of cultural influences, which are relationships that preceded us, family influences as close relationships that for many of us are our firsts, our first relationships, close friends, romantic partners, the interaction you have on the subway

with all these interactions, I think, combine to produce our sense of self, who we are. I think that the self is made up of who we are with other people. This is one of the things that I loved about your book is this idea that, and again, I'm quoting here, to have a self at all requires others. countercultural idea because, you know, we live in the society, you and I, in a culture, in an economic system, all of which place a lot of idea on the value of an individual. But I think your book and your work makes such a compelling argument that we actually don't exist as individuals in any meaningful way. Even just the idea that we could exist as an individual, the idea that you have a self without others isn't actually

true in any sense of the word. It's a powerful fiction. It feels so real that it's hard to see it as not the way things are. When you go a little deeper and start thinking about it, it kind of falls apart a bit, right? This sense that you exist independent of other people starts not to make much sense like when you think of yourself as a man what does that mean how do you know right if you think of yourself as a woman same it doesn't mean as you think we think about your gender how do you know what gender you are so when you

think about what makes you most you I don't think people generally have in mind physical attributes they have in mind is how people engage with them and who they think they are in relationships. And that requires other people. Even what you just said, when I start to think about them, I kind of get a little like dizzy. I feel like we're at the limits of how smart I am that I'm like, I am just barely smart enough to even comprehend what we're talking about because like, it's so fundamental, the idea that I am this self, and yet everything you're saying makes sense and is true. But where's the solid ground to root myself down into? I feel the same way, just so you know, I feel like I'm at my limit

of understanding. And you know, it's one of those things where sometimes I give this comparison to physics, you know, I guess contemporary physics, people will say like there's no intuition for quantum mechanics as an example. There's just no intuitive understanding of it. Like you, there's math and we believe it to be true because the math suggests so. But it's so far from our experience of how the world operates that it's difficult to hold on to or think about it in just an intuitive way. There's like aspects of psychology that are like that, that we just have the sense of how the world is because we move through it and it feels a certain way on examination the way it feels may not actually be how it is.

And that's tough. We're not designed to understand that. I don't think. This is also one of the things that I really appreciate so much about you. This is a podcast that people are listening to because they want to do something to improve themselves and the world. And I love how you argue that self-help, it cannot exist if you're just trying to help yourself. In fact, you say on page three, this book doesn't argue against the aim of self-help so much as argue that it is not possible. self-help so much as argue that it is not possible. And then again, you say later on, when you're talking about this whole genre of self-help that you say, I won't pander to what we want to believe. That's not what I'm doing here. Yeah. I mean, I think often what people want, especially when we talk about the self is affirm my view of how the world is. And you can

tell me things that I might not like as long as they fit with what I believe. Right. And it's a strange thing. Like even when I wrote this book, people like, well, what, what are people going to do with it? And I was like, well, sometimes I want to say there are few things in life more interesting than other human beings. Why is it not sufficient to have a deeper understanding of human beings? Why, why are we, why are we unsatisfied? If you learn something about yourself or about people that is challenging and illuminating and crazy, like, why is that not enough? Why do I have to tell you what to do with that thing? But I will tell you something you can do with that thing. I think, um, I try not to be prescriptive. Like I don't tell people this is how you should live because I don't know how people should live. But I will say that understanding that your relationships shape you also entails an acceptance that you're shaping other people. And with that comes a deeper responsibility for how you engage with other people. So I think taking that on board will change how people behave in meaningful and I would hope positive ways.

how people behave in meaningful and I would hope positive ways. I know this is something that you say in talks and also you say frequently on your podcast in many different eloquent ways that we each play a role in creating others, that our existence makes demands of others. But it also means that this is again, I'm quoting from your book. You have power in mundane, everyday interactions. You affirm or challenge other selves. You open or deny possibilities of being and others do the same for you. That feels at once like a very practical and important thing that we can do in our everyday lives. But for me, it also answers why some

issues or topics are so charged, why people get so upset, why people are literally going to war or violence or, you know, burning systems down. Because if we challenge something that gets at the core of who they understand themselves to be, people are willing to do quite a lot to protect that. It's incredible, right? That when you think about the things that people fight about and are willing to harm other people over, it's sometimes it seems inexplicable. Like, why do you care if someone wants to marry someone of the same sex? Why do you care if someone of a different race is immigrating to the country? These things are, they seem strange to elicit such a strong response.

The way I see it anyway is the reason people care is it goes to the core of who they are. And in challenging sometimes who they are or who they can be, it also challenges the fundamental relationship. So if you are allowing someone to decide that they are a man, when you think of them as a woman, what does that mean for who you are? Right. What does that mean about your relationships? Right. And I think that is what is really powerful about these kind of identities and how people respond to others' identities. And it really puts the lie to the idea that we're individuals separate from other people. Because if we were, we wouldn't care that much. That we operate in a collective.

And what other people do matters to us enough to get really mad about. I have a friend who is trans who talked about how incredible he felt at something so simple as someone saying like, see you later, brother. That felt so affirming and felt like the person wasn't trying to make a political statement. They were just recognizing the truth of who this person was. That is, in my mind, a participation in construction of who that person is. They are participating in that moment, constructing that person in a way that is affirming to their sense of self at that time. But in doing that, it's also a communal act, right? That's, I think that's what's missed, right? When someone else hears that,

they see that as a challenge to how they think about gender. And in some ways, I want to be sympathetic on all sides. Like they're right. It is a challenge to how they understand gender. And it is a communal act. My own beliefs are that like, we should try to allow people to be who they aspire to be, who they want to be the way they understand who they are. But I also understand the challenge that introduces to others. Right. And understanding that is, I think, useful if you want to engage with it, even if you want to change it. I mean, understanding it is a useful thing. But one of the big takeaways for me from your book was that actually all elements of our identity are socially created, not just the culture war ones, right? Like you say society is an intricate

social game and you compare it to this card game that many people have played where you have a card that you can't see that's up on your head. And so if you have a higher value card, like an ace or a king, people have to act deferential to you. And if you have a lower card, they don't act. And you talk about how people without any information about who they are in that game are very good at guessing what card they have up on their head and how actually all of our lives is kind of a version of that game is just figuring out where are we in relation to other people and what do they think we are. 100%. I mean, anything that you think of as an important part of yourself, it's not like just really a straightforward physical attribute. Like how do you know what it is without somebody else

helping you see it? This is kind of the point I make, like the same way that we see our physical self in a mirror, like we see our social selves, all aspects of the social self and other people, they are constructing it for us, with us. And even our physical selves, right? I am 5'10", maybe 5'11". And there are times where I see myself as tall and there are times where I see myself as regular height and there are times where I see myself as short. And it's the same height all the time. Right. I'm the same height every day. And yet I can feel like I am very different because it's in relation to other people. Yeah, Chris, I love that example because it does point to this thing where people confuse like your objective height with in some sense, like the social idea of how tall you are. And those are not the same thing. Like, obviously, there's actually a physical thing that is your height, but that's not what's affecting how you understand yourself. What affects how you understand yourself is like whether you're tall or short or medium height. And that is not just about

your physical height. That's about how you understand yourself around other people. My friend, Julie, I'm going to say her real name just to kind of put her on blast here. Julie, I love you. But it was funny because Julie was describing how I had gone to like a New Year's party at her mom's house several years ago. And Julie was telling her mom, I guess, that I was coming over and her mom didn't remember who I was. And Julie, to me, told this story and said, and I was like, oh, you remember, Chris, he's the hairy guy. And I was like, hairy guy? I'm not a hairy guy.

I have a beard, I guess. But like, I'm so much more well-groomed than most people. And I know people who have backs that are like covered in fur. I'm not a hairy guy. But then to her, I was the hairy guy. You know, that's like how she described me to her mom, the hairy guy, Chris. Hilarious. I love that. The funny thing about these things like height or the hairy guy, these things can be affected by other social things too, right? So height as an example, if people think of you as high status, they're likely to overestimate your height. It's also

like people see you and they're like, oh, you're an important person that can affect their perception of your height. Right. That also is an interesting kind of instance of how these these things that we think of as a black man, when he walked through a white neighborhood at night, he would whistle Vivaldi so that people would see or hear, I guess, a different identity in addition to the one that they perceived of him as a black man walking in their neighborhood. Yeah, that's actually, that comes from a book that a colleague, friend of mine, Claude Steele wrote, actually. He has a book called Whistling Vivaldi, which is an excellent kind of examination of what you're describing. But you think it means a

certain thing to be black or white. And then you're like, you run into someone who doesn't exactly in your mind match that. So you have to like, try to make sense of it. Right. And you try to assign that person to something that you can understand that you can fit within your model of how people, what people are and how they can be. All these identities are incredibly complicated. And people know that, but people want them to make sense. They want them to be easy. They want to use these identities to help figure out how to navigate the world.

And I think we're constantly in the act of portraying ourselves as something or other to other people. Well, it's like that Judith Butler idea that gender is a performance, right? In some ways, everything is a performance. Any social identity is a performance. Being a New Yorker is a performance, right? Being 25 is a performance. And the part that I'm most interested in is like, what does the performance matter if there's no audience, right? Then you're performing this thing because there's an audience and the audience is reflecting back to you where you are. Without the audience, what difference does it make? What would it mean to be any of those things without an audience? Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back in just a moment.

And we are back. We're talking with Brian Lowry, the author of Selfless, the social creation of you about finding meaning in your life and what it means to create a self. I think the human need and pursuit of meaning is both beautiful and profound because when you have meaning in your life, that means that someone else gave you the opportunity to participate in the story that is not your own. On the other side, when you allow people to participate in your life, you're giving them the opportunity to generate meaning. And so in that way,

the deep, deep human need for meaning connects us in a circle. I think a beautiful and profound circle of generosity and gratitude. Brian, I'm curious to talk to you a little bit about yourself and your identities, if that's okay. Yeah, of course. You as a child, you moved around a lot. Mississippi to Chicago to California.

You said that you went to six different schools in Chicago before attending college. I'm curious how that experience impacted your understanding and interest in the social construction of self. I think that's in part where it came from. I mean, you just see these types of characters. Like, I'm sure you mean everyone has it. Like 80s movie tropes where it's like the high school kids. It's like the slacker, the cute girl, the jock, the nerd, blah, blah, blah. You know, these things.

It's like, yeah, I went places. I saw all those characters in all these places, but their outcomes are so different depending on where they were and who they were around. I just became interested in how does the environment affect who we are and who we can be. But it's also interesting that some of the same characters exist in such different environments. Um, and that says something about the strength of the broader community, the broader culture and constructing those or creating those like the idea of a nerd, like every school has some concept of that. And every school has some person who or people who are in that, in some reason, that category, probably. But I was just struck by how important

our environments are in affecting what happens to us. And I think it's easier to see when you move around than when you're in one place, because you can see people who worked hard in different places, not producing the same outcomes. And then you ask like, why is that? How does that work? Um, who they become is maybe not who they would have become in a different environment. So I've always been kind of been interested in that. And in the beginning, it was like kind of a, still it is to, to some extent, like a social justice issue. From my perspective, the book is about not what happens to us, what opportunities do we have, but who can we be? I think that's a very deep thing that everyone can explore in their lives.

One of the big things that I've been thinking about in a new way, thanks to you, is that it is it is that question, of course, who can we be? But it is also this other question, which I've thought about so much less, which is who can we allow others to be? I'm happy you brought that up because it's really just the other side of the coin. I think it's easy to focus on the self and not focus on the effect we're having on others. we're having on others, right? This is just a framework that I think of things in often is going back to when I was teaching fifth grade, right? Like I think I had strengths and weaknesses as a teacher, but I was not certainly some sort of master teacher. But some of the teachers who had been teaching for a really long time would sometimes say things

that would just stop me in my tracks. And I was struggling to get some behavior changes. There were some like tough behaviors and it wasn't quite working out. I was not having great control in my classroom. And one of the teachers, I asked for advice and I kind of thought she was going to say something like, make sure you have more red pieces of paper and hand them a red piece of paper instead of a green one when they do something bad. And instead she said, why don't you try this? Why don't you say you're disrupting

the class? And that doesn't seem like you like make it so that the identity that you're disrupting the class. And that doesn't seem like you. Like make it so that the identity that you're giving them is the identity that you want them to have that you know they can have and that the action is at conflict with that identity. And I thought, like, surely that can't work. And it was amazing how quickly the behavior changed. And not just in like a weird manipulative way, but in like a building that internal sense of self, because, you know, with kids, it's more explicit, but we all have that, that self that's made by the others. I love that story. I think it's, I think that works at all ages when you tell people, here's who you are. I mean, and it makes it harder for them to act in contradiction to that

claim because people want to be consistent with who they are and they're finding out who they are all the time by the people they're around. So can you tell us about your first conscious memory? My first memory is feeding ducks at a pond with my mom. And it was on the hospital grounds, Singing River, the hospital I was born in in Mississippi. I think whether or not that is actually true is another question. But my first memory, the first thing I can recall is being on these hospital grounds with my mom feeding ducks at a pond. And you talk about how that's your first conscious memory, but that isn't where you believe yourself started because you were probably three at that memory. So there was a self that existed before you could even remember. For sure. You come into a story already underway. I don't

know why people sometimes behave as if things started when they got here, right? And your parents' story about who you were and their hopes and dreams for you or their fears for you, or who knows, like their fear for themselves. They didn't know you were coming. There's all kinds of things that are happening that certainly will shape who you are to them and therefore shape how they interact with you. Therefore shape who you can be going forward, right? It's clearly the case that people have ideas about you before you even physically exist. And then as we get older, I think many of us have a moment where we say something or do something and we go, oh, no, I am becoming one of my parents or both of my parents.

That is a way in which our parents self is continuing past them. 100% like you have a sense of who they are and you're carrying them with you in that relationship. I give this example of you have a relationship with your mom or your dad or, you know, you can think of whoever else, that you don't see regularly. Maybe they live somewhere else. That relationship doesn't stop when you hop on a plane and don't see them. You still believe they exist and you engage and think about them as if they exist. If something happened, they passed away,

you wouldn't know right away, but they would still exist for you. And even when they do pass away, my argument is that they do still exist in that relationship with you. And they do continue to affect you. And you do continue to engage with your idea of them in the same way you do when you're not in their physical presence. The self, as it exists in relationships, not as it exists in our bodies, but as it exists in relationships, certainly continues past the physical death and begins probably before physical birth. I mean, here's the thing. I think it's evidence that people believe this, even though it sounds, to say it that way sounds strange, but people clearly care about legacy, right? Leaving something behind. Why? Why would you care about that at all if you thought it all

ended as your physical death? Who cares whether or not something persists after that? And I think that concern is some evidence that people understand that there's something important about who they are that transcends their physical self. I think that that idea that we leave a legacy or that we want to leave a legacy, that dovetails so perfectly into this connection between the self being more than the self, that it actually being a social construction, but also that meaning, the meaning of our lives, the answer to the question, do our lives amount to anything has to do with that social construction, with that community, with the way that people around us have been affected by us and have affected us. I'm curious, what do you think, Chris?

What is your life about? I feel like, honestly, that's such a close and more eloquent encapsulation of what I believe the meaning of my life and of life in general to be, which is how can we leave things better than we found them? How can we do our best to make other people feel seen and respected and have dignity and comfort? And how can we be of service? I mean, honestly, if I was to boil my idea of what makes life meaningful, it would be to be of service. I love that. Look at you. How lucky are you that you have a podcast called Better Human? I mean, listen, this is the smallest act of service. You know, I could be out there picking up trash on the street right now. Instead, I'm in a comfortable room talking on a microphone.

I'm not saying I'm doing it. I'm just saying that's what makes it meaningful. There's definitely a guy out there right now sweeping the street and he is doing more to be of service than I am. Oh, I love the humility. But, you know, it's nice to have a sense that what you're doing is participating in something larger. And I honestly believe that everyone is. The question is, can they see and feel that? much when you go out and have that interaction with someone at the grocery store like you're affecting that person's life right and maybe in a small way i'm not saying every interaction has some you know huge consequence but it might matter for that person more than you know when you pick up trash you're helping and engaging with some idea of how you think the world should be in a way that that matters or can matter for you like I think sometimes people think they have to go on this cosmic quest to find meaning when

it's maybe all around us in these mundane actions and more importantly, mundane interactions that we have all the time with people. People talk about this in terms of artistic pursuits, but I think it applies just as directly to having a meaningful life as well, is people get so focused in my mind on product rather than process, right? Like, how can I write a great script or how can I write a great joke? And the answer is write a hundred bad scripts. How can I write a great joke? Write a hundred bad jokes. By the end, each joke will get a little bit better as long as you pay attention, right? If you are working and striving to be a little bit better each time, that's how you actually get to be good. And I think that this idea of like, how can I have one perfect, meaningful life is like, well,

how can you try to do that by the day, by the minute, by the second? That's actually, for me, the answer. And I think you have a really beautiful anecdote about that in the book. This man you met who was a gay man who was living during the height of HIV in San Francisco. And he told you the story about his garden. So he was a gay man, I think, you know, relatively young man at the time living in the Castro area of San Francisco, which is, um, considered like a, the gay neighborhood in San Francisco. And this is like, you know, I guess early nineties, like near the height of the AIDS epidemic, people would just be disappearing. Like people were just dying all over the place. So people lived that they might have some memory

of how, how bad it was and how scary it was, especially. And obviously in the gay community, it was really frightening at the time. And eventually he gets diagnosed with HIV. And he told me the first thing he thought about was, what am I going to do about my tomatoes? Which you would think is a strange thing to think when you're diagnosed with a disease at the time that is fatal. Every spring, early spring, he'd plant tomatoes and get really excited about planting his tomatoes, eating tomatoes. He loved garden-grown tomatoes. And he was like,

what am I going to do about these tomatoes? Because I probably won't live to consume these tomatoes. His friends were like splurging on trips and doing all these other things. They got diagnosed with HIV. They're like, I'm going to go out on a bang. They were partying, going on cruises, et cetera. And he's like, no, I'm just going to plant my tomatoes and do what I do. And he, and he said, you don't plant the tomatoes to consume them. Most of the planting of tomatoes is about the tending of them. It's just the day-to-day and the consuming them is just the pleasant bonus at the end. His point was that life is mostly tending tomatoes. And I thought that that was just like a very compelling way of thinking about engaging with life. And, you know, I'm curious,

you're a comedian. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. Jokes. What if you kept writing jokes and they weren't getting any better? The way that you get better in my experience at performative comedy, as opposed to just, you know, laughing with your friends and having fun socially, is you go out and you fail. And then you figure out, oh, what worked a little bit? And you try and pursue that and pursue that a little bit more. And over time, you construct with the audience this idea of what works for you. And that is informed very much by who you are perceived by, by the audience versus how you are perceived by yourself. Almost always the reason why jokes will fail at the very beginning is because people think that people will understand who they are.

Like a lot of the things that make your friends and family laugh are because they have so much background information about you already. And the audience doesn't have that. So you have to figure out right at your start of your career as a comedian, what information are they actually getting? And how can I play around with that? I would think that when people don't laugh, it challenges your sense of who you are. Like, and you can say it's a simple way, right? Like you think you're funny. And now people are telling you, no, you're not funny. That's's why it's hard at first now it doesn't challenge my sense of who i am because i have enough accumulated experience that i know that i'm funny and so when people don't laugh i say oh that joke is not clear or there's something that i'm saying that is not

resonating in the way i want it to resonate but at first it challenged my idea of like but i thought i was funny but i thought I was funny, but I thought I was a likable person. And then are you asking, every time you go on stage, are you asking for affirmation? Certainly at first. Now, sometimes I,

it's a little bit more like a research experiment. Like I'm running an experiment on, I think that this joke works in this way, does it? But I have to say, even now as we're talking about like me as a comedian, in the back of my head, I have this idea that someone who is a stand-up comedian, and I do stand-up too, but someone who is a stand-up comedian who says, well, a real comedian is out there every night performing three times a night.

That's what it means to be a real comedian. I have this fear in my head that they're going to say, you're talking about like jokes and all that stuff, but you're not a real comedian. You don't even perform once a week sometimes. So there is this social idea of like, even right now where I'm like, who am I to talk about comedy? Am I a real comedian? I don't know. Well, you're funny to me, Chris. Thank you. Yeah. And you know what? Funny is not funny and comedian are not the same thing. Plenty of people are real comedians and not funny at all. But okay, I want to go back to your TED Talk for a second.

You gave this TED Talk that's about how to have a meaningful life. How did you choose that as the topic that you wanted to discuss? I feel like I'm at or nearing a transition point in my life. And I feel like I've gone through enough of those that I recognize in a way I hadn't so clearly in the past. enough of those that I recognize in a way I hadn't so clearly in the past. I also have this sense of feeling community with other people who are experiencing that, that sense of becoming or imminent becoming, like I am something now and I will be something else in the future. And I don't know what that will be and feeling that and seeing it approach. And in that space, I guess there's a wondering, at least for me, a wondering of what's the point? What do I want it to be? What's the meaning of all

of this? And I guess I just kind of wanted to explore it for myself and put out there a way of thinking about it to other people, because I think this is something that lots of people struggle with shifting from this individualistic focus on what I produce, right? Am I funny? Am I rich? Am I whatever? And, and highlighting the possibility that that's not going to be enough. That will not in the end be satisfying. Now don't poo poo striving for success or adulation or whatever it is that people want. That's that's fine. But I think the kind of satisfaction that people, the deep satisfaction that people want will elude them if that's all they do. meaning in the talk was really about thinking about what it means to transcend those things and pointing to the possibility that participating in something larger than yourself is actually necessary. Not a nice thing to do if you're a good person, but something that we all have a deep need for that sometimes we don't recognize. And so much emphasis is put on what we produce in our personal success that we lose sight of the fact that we exist in a larger community.

And that community not only constructs us, but probably gives us meaning. And that participating in those stories is something that we can choose to do and focus on in a way that might make us much more satisfied with our lives. Beautiful. Brian, it was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.

That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Brian Lowry. His book is called Selfless, and he hosts a podcast that is called Know What You See. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects, at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team that I define solely in the collective. But if we were to break it down into their individual parts, those parts would be called Daniela Bellarezzo, Ban Ban Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Lainey Lott, Antonia Leigh, and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Matthias Salas. And then on the PRX side, the selfless

team of philosopher kings who put this show together are Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Maggie Goreville, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making it possible for us to do this as a job. I will tell you that a podcast is nothing else if not a social creation, because if you don't listen, it's just me talking alone in my basement.

If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five star rating and review. Share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. Send them an email, text it to them, send it to a friend, send it to a family member. Send it to someone who has helped to socially create who you are. And we will be back next week with even more episodes of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you for listening and take care.