How to Be a Better Human - How to keep close friendships (w/ Aminatou Sow)

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

“People are expected to have good friendships, but nobody talks about how they happen,” says journalist Aminatou Sow. Aminatou is also the host of the podcast Call Your Girlfriend and the author of the book Big Friendship: How We Keep Each Other Close. She joins Chris to discuss the communication efforts necessary to maintain meaningful friendships, why she rejects Western society’s obsession with self-improvement, the insights she gained from reading obituaries and the act of grace in sharing bits of yourself with others.FollowHost: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy | chrisduffycomedy.com)Guest: Aminatou Sow (Instagram: @aminatou) LinksCrème de la Crème SubstackBook: bigfriendship.com/Podcast: callyourgirlfriend.com/Subscribe to TED Instagram: @tedYouTube: @TEDTikTok: @tedtoksLinkedIn: @ted-conferencesWebsite: ted.comPodcasts: ted.com/podcastsFor the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscriptsFor a chance to give your own TED Talk, fill out the Idea Search Application: ted.com/ideasearch.Interested in learning more about upcoming TED events? Follow these links:TEDNext: ted.com/futureyou Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. If I had to pick a single thing that I think is the most important thing when it comes to friendships, relationships, and even your relationship with yourself, I'd say it's being able to communicate honestly about what it is that you're feeling. Today's guest, the inimitable writer and podcaster and woman around town, Aminatu So, is extremely good at this. Aminatu Soh, is extremely good at this.

Aminatu gives honest advice to strangers in her newsletter. She wrote a book, Big Friendship, How We Keep Each Other Close, with her friend Anne Friedman, where one of the memorable sections was being very honest about how they went to couples counseling together as platonic friends to figure out how to navigate issues and communicate better and stay connected. She and Anne also hosted the popular podcast, Call Your Girlfriend for years. Call Your Girlfriend was always funny and fun,

but it was also refreshingly honest. As an example, here's a clip from one episode where Anne and Aminatu are talking about being self-employed. We were having a conversation some months ago about the ways in which the skills we have had to develop in working for ourselves and on our own. Do and don't translate to staff employment and also about some of the myths surrounding self-employment that I think are perpetuated by a lot of self-labeled, creative class, digital people who are like, this is a thing that everyone should aspire to. So we kind of want to talk about this whole cocktail of stuff.

Right. I mean, it probably helps to talk about how we ended up being self-employed, right? I agree. How did you end up self-employed? Woo, child. My serotonin went to war. My dopamine went to war. Nobody is back yet. That's how you ended up self-employed.

That's how I ended up self-employed. All my life I had to fight for myself. Okay, you already get a sense of the kind of person that Aminatu is just by hearing that clip, right? So today we are going to have a wide ranging, a fascinating, and of course, a very honest conversation with Aminatou So about how to navigate friendships, how to navigate relationships, and how to navigate your career while staying true to yourself.

What does that mean? What does it mean to be really honest about who you are and what you want? But first, a quick ad break. This podcast is brought to you by Wwise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wwise, you can send, spend, and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Plus, Wwise won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with Pesos and Puerto Vallarta

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It's time we stop ignoring our gum bleeding. Use Colgate Periogar to significantly reduce gum bleeding and inflammation. It helps fight bacteria that can lead to early gum disease and improves gum health with daily use. So just like you take care of your cuts, help take care of your gums with Colgate Periogard. Healthy gums, confident smile. We're talking honesty, friendships, and how to pave your own path through the world with Aminatou Soh. Hello, I'm Aminatou Soh. I am a writer and interviewer.

You can find me over at Substack at creme de la creme. And yeah, that's it. For people who maybe aren't super familiar, you wrote a book on friendship with one of your best friends. How did that come about? Yeah, I wrote a book called Big Friendship with my big friend, Anne Friedman, who was also my creative collaborator for many, many years. We were the co-host of a podcast called Call Your Girlfriend.

And in 2020, we published this book that was a joint account of our friendship told by the both of us. I loved the book. I thought it was so well-written and accessible and funny, but also it brought up some really, to me, big ideas. I'm someone where I really am willing to put a lot of work into a romantic relationship. I'm willing to have the conversations and understand that there's going to be rough

periods and we're going to have to have like tough moments. And I don't think that I had really thought much about that same kind of work in friendship before reading your book about the idea that you might need to spend time and effort and have awkward, uncomfortable conversations with people who you're friends with if you want those friendships and those relationships to last? Hearing you say that is not surprising to me. Like, I grew up in the exact same culture as you, where people are expected to have good friendships, but nobody talks about how they happen.

And somehow it's... You make friends when you're very, very young, and that's kind of all a mystery to everyone. And then you're expected to have young, and that's kind of all a mystery to everyone. And then you're expected to have them at every stage of life. And the truth is that if you don't put work and effort into that relationship, it's not true that you will have long lasting friendships, you know, for your entire life.

And so we were, Ann and I are people who I think like, think a lot about this because we shared a lot of friendships and also our friendship was very important to us. But I think more than anything, it's that we recognize that there was nothing special about our friendship, especially our age, this kind of geriatric millennial, like a younger gen X,

that's kind of the age range that we're in. We were reaching that part of your mid-30s, where it's, okay, your time is being challenged and your attention is being challenged in all these ways. It's the peak of career. It's a lot of people get caretaking responsibilities. Romantic relationships are like really important in this phase of life. And I was like, well, how do I make time and room for this, these other relationships that really matter? And so the book was really born out of all of those conversations. other relationships that really matter. And so the book was really born out of all of those conversations. But your book came out right into the coronavirus pandemic into a time where all of

a sudden people are having to be long distance. But also I think there was a really profound disconnection for a lot of people that at least the people in my world still have not fully recovered from the like the severing of these like close ties and especially the like somewhat weaker ties. Yeah, I mean, you're so right. Nobody foresaw publishing in a pandemic. I will say that like, as somebody who I like, I moved to the United States when I was 19, I was an international student college, I grew up moving a lot. I come from a background of people that have a lot of experience with long-distance relationships.

So I will say that the pandemic did not challenge my relationships the way that I saw it challenge a lot of other people's relationships. And that's not to say that it wasn't hard, but like Anne, for example, who is my, you know, my co-writer and collaborator and friend, we had not lived in the same city

for like six or seven years at that point. So we were already in the rhythm of having a long distance relationship and suddenly in COVID, we were like, oh, everybody's kind of living like us, where you have this person that you love that is halfway across the country and you have to find ways to show up for them,

that are creative and that are hard and it threw a lot of people in for a loop. But I think the way that I really try to think about that time also is, well, all relationships like face challenges. Like in the book we write about what happens when you get into a rhythm with someone and then all of a sudden it's like,

they have a new shift at work. It's like, this was your work from that you saw like nine to five and then now they, you know, they either work far away from you, or you had the morning shift, and now they have the evening shift. There are always these kind of small, smaller type challenges that insert themselves, and part of growing in a friendship

is learning how to stretch with them and stretch with that person and finding ways to overcome them, and sometimes those things are not overcomeable. What are some of the most effective, practical ways you've found to do that? I think the first thing that people should do is communicate, which sounds so silly.

It sounds so silly. And I'm like, God, I can't believe I pay someone hundreds of dollars a week to remind me every week about this. But I think that no two friendships are the same in the same way that no two relationships are the same. It's like they're governed by kind of the people inside of them and the moods inside of them. about this, but I think that no two friendships are the same in the same way that no two relationships are the same. It's like they're governed by kind of the people inside of them

and the moods inside of them. And I think that communicating with that person, hey, I feel like we're challenged with time or with play or whatever the thing is. And saying, how do you think we bridge that gap? Because that communication is, like, I think more than 60% of the battle. It's like, if you can tell someone, like,

hi, I really love you, but, like, life is doing a number on me right now and I don't have time or a way to show up for you, that takes care of, like, most of the anxiety, you know? And then everything else is, like, people are understanding. Like, they are going through similar things, usually, than you are, you know, or they have a framework for kind of like what you're going through.

And so, yeah, it sounds really boring, but I was like, you should talk to them about it. You should know what they kind of expect and want. You should know what you expect and want, and then you should find like small delightful ways to like show up in that. Like with Anne, we're big on like writing mail, and I still get excited when I open my mailbox

and there is a postcard from my friend and it's something silly, you know what I mean? It's not like she's on some fancy international trip. It's like she literally lives in Los Angeles, but she sent me a piece of mail and she was thinking about me in that moment, and I was like, I love this, and now there are not just bills in my mailbox.

Someone is thinking about me somewhere else. Let's also talk about creme de la creme. I am such a fan. I think it is so fun and thoughtful and thought-provoking and funny, often all at the same time. Do you have a one-sentence description for it or is it just the writing and the topics that interest you the most? No, I do not have a one-sentence description for it because actually, you know what, let's

try. It's a newsletter about things I'm interested in. And my interests are very varied. So some days it's very silly and other days it's a little more serious. There's an advice column and other days there is, I don't know, links to shopping I'm into. It's a real insight into how my brain works, I think, that newsletter, because I just show up and I do whatever I want every day.

I'm like, I don't have a boss, like I'm the boss here. This is very exciting. I think that there is like a kind of like older internet that I miss that I am trying to recreate for myself. And that has been, that's like kind of the intent behind it. A thread that I kind of see in your work, whether it is working in tech, being a digital strategist, being a writer,

publishing the book, hosting the podcast, call your girlfriend, and writing this newsletter, creme de la creme, is figuring out who exactly you want to be and who you are in a way that is not fitting exactly into some sort of culturally prescribed box. Wow, you're reflecting something back to me that I have not, I'll be honest with you,

I don't spend a ton of time thinking about it. I think that there is this very Western, white notion of self-improvement.'s like a thing I see a lot, and I don't really understand it. Like, I genuinely do not understand it. It's not my culture. I have no judgment about it. I just am like, wow, like, so many people are preoccupied

with, like, how do I become, like, better all the time? And it feels very laborious, you know? And I'm not really particularly interested in that kind of labor, but I am interested in kind of this philosophical question of who am I and where do I fit in the world? And I think that that is universal. It's like I'm trying to write my way

into my own thoughts, you know? My brain is not quiet. I spend a lot of time thinking all the time. And in fact, I was talking to a friend who was telling me that like he has no inner thoughts. And then we got into this whole rabbit hole of like, what? Like some people it's quiet in there, and then other people it's just like shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-shhh-sh-shhh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh I certainly did not have a quiet mind. And so much of writing for me is organizing those thoughts. I really appreciate that you call out the sense of humor because I think that so much of my rejection on self-improvement is this.

I'm like, this is so self-serious. Being alive is not serious business. You know, I get it. It's serious. But it's also very absurd and unserious. And I really try to lean into that absurdity and how I'm like, wow, I can't believe I'm here and I got to do all this stuff, didn't ask to be born and here we are. I think that at the end of the day,

I'm a writer, I like to tell stories, I like to understand how things work. Understanding my place in the world, it's the best frame that I know how to do that with. I completely agree that there is a very real cultural perspective that this comes out of. It's your job to be improving yourself as an individual and you have to do this work all the time

and that's your job. Even if you don't think about it as a job, I think there's something at least counter-cultural about not doing that work and not vying into that and just saying, I'm not my version of who I am and what success looks like for me and what a full complete life looks like is gonna be my own not some sort of one that's imposed on me that involves like living up to these impossible standards that also involve paying money all the time to all these certain things you

know like I think that that countercultural piece is what I'm really interested in. Yeah, I mean, I did not really grow up in a world where the model of success looks like me. I was like a fat black girl from West Africa. And I'm not saying that in like a self-deprecating way. I'm like, those are like kind of the facts of my life.

But I think that something about not being a contender ended up really working well for me because the rest of the people who look like me, I grew up in very predominantly white environments. Some of this is very nature versus nurture, you don't really get to take too much credit for what your factory settings are. I think that my factory settings were very much like, okay, like, um, they said that it's not for me

and that I am not really gonna amount to anything in this, like, system. So, but I still have to be here and I have to find ways to survive and I have to find ways to figure it out. And so, I think that that has ended up, like, something that, like, is obviously, obviously like this painful wound for a lot of people and probably including for me ends up being like an avenue for figuring out another path, right? And I think that that's really important. I think the other thing with me is that I am so not interested in like scolding other people or really like kind of looking too much at what's on somebody else's paper. And that's like from a really young age. I used to drive me crazy in class when people would be like, what's the homework? Like, what are you doing? And I'm just like, just look at your own paper.

Like, we can't be like looking at each other's paper too much. This is it's like very counterproductive. And I think that's something about like really focusing on myself. And it's like all of my energy goes towards like making sense of myself. I don't really quite have the time to be like, oh, I like I wonder what's happening over there with Chris Duffy. Like, what's he thinking? Like, what's he doing? What's he, you know, like I. Never an interesting answer, I'll tell you that.

No, but I think that it's like a form of like being very self-centered. And I also think that the kind of negative feelings that I work through a lot, and a lot of that has to do with shame or feelings of inadequacy or surprise, surprise, we all have the same sickness. But I think that for me, I have found that I've gotten further ahead

in thinking about this stuff by just being honest about where I am at. I was like, I can't make assumptions about anyone else. And I'm just like, okay, here's my deal today. Like I feel like this, or I feel like that. And I think that when you are honest about where you're at, it creates like an environment where other people are able to be honest as well.

And I think that so much of the community that I benefit from, particularly like online with strangers is this thing where I'm just like, from, particularly online with strangers, is this thing, where I'm just like, okay, here's what you think about me, but here's kind of the mess that I'm living in, and here's the mess that's in my head. What's going on with you? And I think that an invitation to that conversation

is so much more productive than just performing, being perfect, or having all your shit together or whatever, I don't know. I hope you can swear on this podcast. Yeah, I'm also like someone who's fascinated by scams, you know, like I love a scam. And so much of that is like growing up in Nigeria, like we were surrounded by these like very specific scams.

And this is not to say that Nigeria is a country of more scammers. Like what's happened is that I grew up and I was like, oh, everyone is running some sort of scam. And one of the like most like persistent scams that people are running is that like some people, you feel that some people have it together. And I'm like, no, everyone's like a mess.

And they like figure it out. It's like, yeah, you can be a mess and you're the president of the university or what? Like, I'm like, these things don't, they're not like correlated. And so I think that just being really aware of that is also, I find that very humorous. I'm like, oh yeah, everyone's messy and weird

and we just all have to live with that. I feel like often that feeling of being a little outside of the situation that you're in, whether it's because people look different than you or have different amounts of money or are attracted to different people. Whatever that situation is, I think is often a really rich position,

even though it's uncomfortable, it's a really rich position for comedy and for humor because you get to say, you all take these things for granted and I can just see the absurdity of that one piece that you're missing. And often that's, like, the funniest joke to me, is to just point that stuff out. Yeah, I mean, but that stuff works on, like, every level, because, like, to go back to, like, the self-improvement piece of it, the loudest people about self-improvement should

be taking their own advice. It's like, what are you telling me about, you know, like how to like use my time, like use your time. Like, I'm good. There's also just this like very human thing of like, we always wanna show each other like kind of what we're up to, you know, and I think that like at its best, it's really cool.

And at its worst, it just like breeds a lot of resentment and misunderstanding. And so again, for me, I was like, I stay in my lane. I try not to talk about things I don't understand or I don't know. And I'm like, keep it small, keep it simple. Let's see where we all shake out after life is done. We're gonna take another quick break right now, but then we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by Cozy.

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But when I brushed my teeth and saw blood in the sink, I shrugged it off. It's time we stop ignoring our gum bleeding. Use Colgate Periogard to significantly reduce gum bleeding and inflammation. It helps fight bacteria that can lead to early gum disease and improves gum health with daily use. So just like you take care of your cuts, help take care of your gums with Colgate Periogard. Healthy gums, confident smile. This podcast is brought to you by WISE, the app for international people using money around

the globe. With WISE, you can send, spend, and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Plus, WISE won't add hidden fees to your transfer. Whether you're buying souvenirs with Pesos and Puerto Vallarta or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. Be smart. join the 15 million customers who choose Wwise. Download the Wwise app today or visit wise.com. Terms and conditions apply. And we are back. For me personally, like something that I really love

about being a writer and hosting a podcast, but also that I loved like since I was like 10 years old, reading books was just getting to ask questions and have my curiosity be sated a little bit, or even to get even more curious. I think that's like, to me, that's really the driving force. I remember reading books that took place, like a kid living alone in a forest, or people living in the 1800s and being like I can't believe That's how you'd make a log cabin or something like that And I still feel like that in getting to interview people

It's just amazing to see the different ways that people think about the world and their life Yeah, no, you're scratching the exact right part of my brain. It's I'm getting so excited hearing you say that but I'm like, wow You're laying there my scam. I Love I love when people tell me what they think about. You know, I'm just like, how generous and how amazing. I think that, like, yeah, it's like, I was a kid like you who I read everything. I read every... I was like, wow, there's like kids in Alaska,

like, doing this, and then there's kids in Madagascar, doing that, like, it was so cool. And I think that it probably, for me at least, like, comes from a place of like, it just made me feel less lonely. I was like, okay, great. There's like... There's so many more versions of like, how you can be a person than what I am seeing

in front of my own eyes, you know? And so I think that was cool. And part of why I do an advice column, really... is that, um, on creme de la creme, is that I just really think that if you can ask questions, you kind of expose to everyone else that we're all dealing with the same shit. It's like whenever I look at the mail that I get

for that advice column, it's always the same stuff. It's like, okay, I've disappointed someone I love. I'm like, check, always the same stuff. It's like, okay, I've like disappointed someone I love. I'm like, check, like we all do that. Or I'm about to do something that I know is bad, but I'm gonna do it anyway, check. Like I do that too. Or, you know, like my neighbors are driving me crazy. How do you talk to strangers?

I'm just like, these are the same problems. Like no one has brought me a problem in the advice column that I'm like, categorically, this is a new, this is a new modern, you know, like, not in the Talmud kind of problem. And that is, you know, I find that like very exciting because I'm just like, wow, we're all so different, but we're all the same. And I love interviewing people because I love asking them, I love asking them questions. I love hearing how you can ask the same person the same question,

and there's like, you know, however many different answers to that. I also love when you have an assumption about someone, like especially like the people that we interview that are in public life, you know, where you're like, okay, like, I've read like everything that you have to say about something. And I love when you ask them a really basic question and they can still like surprise you in their answer because guess what? Like perceiving someone is not the same thing as them Telling you themselves like what they actually mean and say and so yeah that curiosity will never go away for me. I love them Are you more excited when you're interviewing someone who feels like?

unattainable like I can't believe we got to talk to them or are you more excited when you're interviewing someone where you're like, I had no idea that you existed before this? Oh, I don't believe anyone is unattainable. So that's the first problem. No one's unattainable. It's a matter of like, what's the right cycle for this? Yeah, I'm not like particularly interested in interviewing people that are on the interview circuit like I don't think that I personally am gonna bring out something so interesting about someone that like has a book out or is on a you know, like movie run or like a show or whatever like celebrities or celebrities and Famous people are known people are known people and also to be fair to them Like they are here to talk about their work

Not necessarily they're kind of the the innermost like the thing that you here to talk about their work, not necessarily their kind of the innermost, like the thing that you want to know about them is actually their private life, which is not fair to them and I, that's also not interesting to me. However, I do love talking to someone that is not like a known quantity and talking to them either about like work that's like fascinating that they're doing or like a way that they think that's different. You know, we're introducing like a new person to the public, like I love that so much. And something that makes me think about is that like I'm obsessed with reading obituaries. Like every week I find out about like amazing people who would like had a lifetime of like amazing works, you know, that you just like don't know about. Always blows my mind.

Every single week, it's like I sit down, I read them, and particularly obituaries of women. I'm always so struck by that where I was like, oh, look at this person who had an amazing life and I am just finding out about them now that they're no longer here. I think that's an experience that a lot of us have. It's always interesting to me to think about it in the obituary thing where it's like, oh, there are a few milestones that you hit. And like, that's the stuff that gets remembered.

It's not like the each of the little rungs along the way. Like, you published a book. I know. But it's so fascinating to hear you think about obituaries in the lifespan of work. Because I'm like, sure, maybe that's how you make it into the New York Times one, maybe. But there are all kinds of obituaries. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the ones that are written by family members. That's what you're talking about.

Yeah. But I think that, again, yeah, but I'm talking about both of those things. But I do think that it is fascinating that, again, it's like someone's dead and we're like, what did they do at work? Like, how would I know them? And I'm like, sometimes they're just an amazing neighbor. You know what I mean? It's not a work thing, or it's someone who started

a cool community program. I read this a bit the other day that was from this family that they wrote about their son who died by suicide. And it was so heart-wrenching in the sense that I was like, okay, it's a very conscious choice to mention suicide, right? Because they're like, we want people to know what happened here. And the whole time I was reading it, I was like, this is so generous. They wrote about their like family member

in just this like beautiful, true way. And also like giving the public like a way to be like, here is how you can talk about your family member that you also might have complicated feelings about. And so, yeah, obituaries, what a fascinating, fascinating territory. That also brings, that brings up something that I wanted to talk to you about.

It's something I struggle with a lot, is that line between public and private. And I know from reading your writing that it's something you've thought consciously about, especially in the last couple of years, of like, what do you want to be out there in the public, and what do you not want to be out there in the public? Because so much of what I write is like personal narrative,

and also like I've written a memoir, of course like I share parts of myself. I think that the negotiation that I made with myself a long time ago was always that like I only share things that don't feel precious to me. If it feels like it will be helpful for someone, like it's in service, right? As opposed to like in just like here's like a cool thing about me, I had cancer. Which is not how anybody thinks about that stuff. I was like, if it's in service to like a greater conversation

then I'm happy to like let it go. I also think that something that happens is that we all have different ideas of like what should be private and not because I, again, and I think that some of this is being a woman who writes online, and also because I had a podcast with my friend, people have a parasocial relationships with women in ways that are very specific.

But the things that people ask of me are never the things that I give them. It's always fascinating what they wanna know. They wanna know about romantic relationships. Like even in the New York Times review of our book, the reviewer was like, I wish I knew this thing about her. And I was like, yeah,

you're not going to know that about me. And I think I wrote a column about this recently because, oh yeah, because somebody wrote in with a very unhinged kind of question. And I went back to them and I was like, if you know me personally, you should ask me. And if you don't know me,

you kind of don't have a right to ask me. And so for me, like that's kind of where the line is. It's like with my friends, like I'm generally like very open and it's, you know, it's like whatever. But I was like, I do think that I fall on the side of like, like even with famous people, I think that people are allowed their privacy. Somebody living out loud or telling you

something that you might think is invasive is not an invitation to like, to like rummage through their lives. That's like very kind of counter cultural to the tabloid culture that we live in and to the Instagram culture we live in. But I'm just like, yeah, I was like, if somebody tells you something intimate about their lives,

like, it's a kindness, actually. It's like, you should be grateful. Now you know something that you didn't know. You get to make meaning of it in your own life, but it's not an invitation to like ask them more about what else is going on with them. Like, they'll tell you if they want to. I think just to ask a little bit more about this line,

you know, you made the joke, but it's also not a joke that you have been public about having health battles and dealing with cancer. And so that is something that I think people latch onto. And they completely agree with you. That is a real generosity that people can learn from what you went through and just not feel as alone if they are going through it.

And yet, that's also, I imagine, a real weight to have people know that or reach out to you and share their own versions of that pain and struggle. That example specifically is interesting because when I did it at the time, there was not a lot of forethought. I think it was more of a, I genuinely thought I was going to die,

which looking back on it now, I was like, that's interesting too. And also, it's that thing that happens, I think, like when you are sick, where you have to keep a lot of people updated also at the same time, you know? And I was like, the logistics of that are becoming really hard. And so something that I told my friends ended up being something that I told the whole world.

I still feel good about that disclosure. What is intense, though, is what you're talking about is like other people reaching out or they have like all these like very specific questions or they have these questions about treatment and all this stuff. And I'm always like, sorry, like I don't, I'm not a doctor.

I don't really love to talk about medical stuff. Yeah, like that's not my lane, you know? Like going back to like, I don't like to talk about things that I don't understand very well. It's also, like, none of this stuff, like, matters. It's, like, actually, like, when you are really sick and if you're annoyed about, like, you know,

like, people asking you questions, I'm like, that's not the real thing you're annoyed about. You're annoyed about the fact that you might die, you know? And so that's just, like, another layer. And for me, at least, like, it was helpful to understand that. And many years later, like later people still have questions about it and I'm like buy my next book and maybe you'll find out about it.

Yeah wait, tell me what is the next book? You said it's done but not out. It's a memoir about the years after my mom died. I think that's gonna be a really interesting and amazing book. I mean I've read a little bit of what you've written about dealing with that grief and moving in a world without a person who you really care about.

I'm curious, you probably get a lot of questions from like people who are younger and kind of early in their career and trying to figure out early in life, trying to figure things out. I'm curious what threads come about the most in those? Like what are the people, when people reach out who are 20s, early 30s,

and they're asking you about life and work and figuring themselves out, what comes up the most? What do people most ask you about? You know, it's funny, I don't actually get those emails a lot anymore, I used to. And I remember at the time I was like, I'm young too, like, I don't know what I'm doing. Which is not a good answer.

I am like very involved involved with a younger writer program and I'm involved a lot also with a program at my university. And so I do talk to young people all the time and it's the same questions that I had and I still have. It's just like, how am I gonna survive? How do I make money, basically? It's like, how do I make money and how do I survive? I mean, I'm like, I don don't know girl like you just take jobs but the one thing that I

do tell a lot of people who talk to me about like how do I make work for my art is I always say I'm like you probably won't so you should get a job you should work a job there is no shame in having a job I always had jobs and I am you know like what like almost 20 years removed from like college graduation. And I was like, that's how long it took for me to make money from being a, like to be a working artist, which is a thing I tell a lot of young people. I was like, find a way to support yourself.

That is more important than suffering. And then the second question is always some variation of like, how do I do what you did? The answer to that is also like you can't because I come from like a kind of like a media and internet world that doesn't exist anymore. And so I think that like the kind of the sadness for me whenever young people are like, you know, like what's the path to here? I'm like, I don't know because the path I took like doesn't exist anymore. I climbed this ladder as the steps were disintegrating. I just don't know if you're 22 and you're like,

I wanna move to New York and be a writer. I'm like, I actually don't know how you do that. That's a question for somebody else. And so a lot of times I try to direct them towards younger writers to answer that for them. Careers of people today who do the thing that you and I do. I was like, I don't know that that is replicable, in a way that makes sense for young people,

because media has shifted so much, the internet landscape is different. Capitalism is doing a more intense version of capitalism. And so that really bums me out. The last time I nicked my finger, I threw on a bandage, took care of it right away. But when I brushed my teeth and saw blood in the sink, out. disease and improves gum health with daily use. So just like you take care of your cuts, help take care of your gums with Colgate Periogard. Healthy gums, confident smile. Add a little curiosity into your routine with TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you

a new TED Talk every weekday. In less than 15 minutes a day, you'll go beyond the headlines and learn about the big ideas shaping your future. Coming up, how AI will change the way we communicate, how to be a better leader, and more. Listen to Ted Talks Daily, wherever you get your podcast. The joke that is very much not a joke that I always make when someone asks me some version of that is like,

I really hope that you figure it out and that you will hire me when you do, because that is... Yeah. I don't feel like I'm gonna be hiring you. I feel very much like I will be begging you for a job if you figure it out, so please do that. Oh, it's not a joke. It's the only reason I keep young people around. I was like, you guys are all gonna hire me one day.

What that is. And it's been true. It's like a lot of people, like someone who was my intern many years ago, was someone who just gave me a gig recently. I was like, see, I always knew this horizontal loyalty, it was always going to work out one way or another. What about when they're asking you about how do you survive?

How do you survive life? Yeah. I think that the thing I push them to is like, you're not gonna survive alone. And it's probably why this question of friendship is so important to me, because I do think that finding ways to be in community with people that do not have like the pressure of romance or like biological family ties is so important.

We're not looking for like a hundred friends in the frame. It truly is like do you have a person in your life that you can count on that can count on you and are you both trying to move towards this like goal of being like good citizens of the community that you belong to, like that to me is, it's part of the answer. I don't think it's the whole answer. But whenever people come to me and they're just like, how do I survive?

I'm like, I don't know, but find someone else who's trying to survive because it turns out like you're not the only person with this question. You're not the only person that's suffering. And to like tie it back to this theme of grief, I do think that one of the things that like having a parent die young

like kind of afforded me was this truth of like, everyone is grieving something. You know, like every interaction I have every day with someone it's like whether I like them or they are driving me insane and I wanna push them into traffic, I'm like that person is grieving something. Friendship and grief are like very,

they're like two pieces that go hand in hand. Staying in that place has like provided a lot of answers for me. It's just these like very simple truths. It's like all the stuff that you spend time running away from when you're young are the things that you have to run towards. All of the coping skills that helped you survive

up until the train crash are now all of the things that you have to unlearn to like of the coping skills that helped you survive up until the train crash are now all of the things that you have to unlearn to get to the next phase. It's like all of it is so, it's just like, I'm like everything is cliche, it's so annoying. And at the same time I'm like, wow, what an intense opportunity to just choose another path. But again, it's like, I'm just like,

no one has a monopoly on the human suffering, especially not people who are making or listening to podcasts. You know, so. That is definitely true. But yeah, again, being a person, it's hard. It's not like a oppression Olympics, but it's like, it's hard to be yourself.

We've talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious how humor and the art of conversation and the art of writing, again three things that I think you are so stupendously talented at, how those help you to navigate this like building of community and dealing with grief and figuring out your own path, how is the art tied to the life part for you? And how do they inform each other? Whatever the smallest human tether is to understand someone else, like I don't care where they're from or who they are or what they look like or you know, I'm just like my survival like

involves being connected to another person and And that is, you know, like, a broad statement. But I do find that, like, generally, all conversation is, is, like, asking questions and following up. You know what I mean? Like, that's all the welcome to podcasts. Some people do it better than others. I do think that one of the secrets of asking questions is that people love to talk about themselves. You know? And so if you ask questions that are like remotely thoughtful or you ask people things

that they're not being asked of or you know they're not being considered that way, really opens up a like it opens up like a beautiful channel for being connected with people and making them feel like kind of kind of considered. And there is, like, dignity and, like, respect to every single person, like, whether they are known or not. And I find that, like, in my line of work, at least, that giving people the kind of time of day that really considering deeply something that they're asking,

not because someone else says they're important, but because I believe that every single person is important and the questions that they have are important and the dignity that they have as a person is so central. I'm just curious on a meta level, if you can give advice to people who are trying to do this in there, because I think you've done this to me

in a really interesting way, which is to like push back on the framework or assumptions that a person has when they're talking to you, what advice would you have for people who are trying to do that in more in their life and haven't quite like mastered it yet? One is you just ask questions. I think that like a place that humans get in a lot of trouble is that people make these really strong declarative statements. I obviously feel very safe to do them here in the hands of a professional. But I think like generally in civilian conversation, it gets you further along

if you say, hey, have you considered xyz? Or what do you think about it's like, you take the conversation somewhere else, you know, like not in an arrogant way. I do think that so much of the art of conversation is being humble. and it's not about me. Making assumptions is very silly. So if you don't know something, you should just ask. Thank you so much for being on the show. This was such a great conversation. I really appreciate you making the time.

You are the best. I really enjoy you. I think you are so smart and lovely, and this is a fun show. So thank you for having me. Wow. What a delight. I'm so honored. That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Aminatu So.

Her book is called Big Friendship, and you can find her newsletter at aminatu.substack.com. That is A-M-I-N-A-T-O-U dot sub stack dot com. I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects, at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who I would gladly go to therapy with. On the Ted side we've got Human Beams of Light, Daniela Balarezzo, Ban Ban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohannini, Laini Lott, Tansika Seungman Nivong, Antonia Lay, and Joseph De Bruyne.

Speaking of being true to yourself, this episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who are always true to the truth. On the PRX side, they are the creme de la creme. I'm talking about Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please call up your girlfriend and recommend this podcast to them. We will be back next week with even more How to be a Better Human. Until then, take care, thanks for listening, we appreciate you. The last time I nicked my finger, I threw on a bandage. Took care of it right away.

But when I brushed my teeth and saw blood in the sink, I shrugged it off. It's time we stop ignoring our gum bleeding. Use Colgate Periogard to significantly reduce gum bleeding and inflammation. It helps fight bacteria that can lead to early gum disease and improves gum health with daily use. So just like you take care of your cuts, help take care of your gums with Colgate Periogard. Healthy gums, confident smile. This podcast is brought to you by WISE, the app for international people using money around the globe.

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