How to Be a Better Human - How to solve your problems through drawing (w/ Liana Finck)

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Liana Finck’s cartoons explore life’s big predicaments: what to make for dinner, how to leave a party without being rude, how to feel like more than a snack machine once you have a child. In today’s episode, Liana shares how drawing has become a practice for her to answer questions, solve problems, and why creating art helps humans understand ourselves better. Liana also discusses why she’s not bothered by impostor syndrome (okay maybe it helps that she regularly contributes to The New Yorker) and how she navigates the feelings of doubt we all experience with honesty and humor. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. When I think about the artists, comedians, writers, when I think about the people that I admire the most, they run the gamut when it comes to the topics that they cover and their styles and the formats that they work in. But the thing that ties everyone who I admire together, the thing that they all share, is that they found a way to be distinctly and uniquely themselves. That is the trait that I admire the most.

And that is why I am so excited about today's episode of our podcast. Because our guest, the cartoonist Liana Fink, makes work that could only be made by her. You can see her cartoons in places like The New Yorker, but her style is so distinct from what a classic New Yorker cartoon is. You would never mistake her work for something by anyone else. Because Liana's drawings, they're much simpler, but they're also more impressionistic and they convey so much emotion. And they're also very, very, very, very funny. Liana is hilarious and her humor comes from this deeply honest confessional place.

It's some of the best proof I've ever seen that the more specific and the more true to yourself you go, the more universally your jokes will connect. Whether it is Liana overthinking what to say at a party or analyzing the pressures of adulthood or motherhood, she is always so funny and she is always 100% herself. If you can't already tell, I am a huge fan and I'm so excited to talk to her. Here's a clip from Liana's TED Talk. When I first started making cartoons for The New Yorker

about a decade ago, I kept my ideas light and quirky. I didn't draw anything too personal. I figured I was too specific, too hard to relate to, and read possibly too female. It took a breakup to get me to start drawing more autobiographically. The pain I was feeling,

although objectively pretty run-of-the-mill, was impossible to ignore. I knew that drawing was my strongest problem-solving tool, so I decided to diagram what I was going through. By making these drawings, I could see how my ex and I had hurt each other and move on. Drawing from my own life was a revelation to me, not only because it helped me understand myself better,

but because it made me see for the first time that people could relate to me. Now that I had this amazing tool, there were so many problems I wanted to solve with it. had this amazing tool. There were so many problems I wanted to solve with it. We're going to be right back with much more from Liana after these quick ads. Don't go anywhere. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA.

That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just

15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Today, we're talking about humor, creativity, and cartoons with Liana Fink. Hi, I'm Liana Fink. I'm a cartoonist, which in my case means that I make New Yorker cartoons and graphic novels and a lot of random freelance stuff. of the driving idea behind the interview, which is also a big part of your TED Talk, is how drawing and how art more generally can help you to figure out who you actually are and be more yourself. So could you talk to us a little bit about that journey of how your cartoons let you be more yourself or figure out who that self really is? I think for me, drawing coincided with wanting to figure out who I was. I'm not sure that they

need to go together for everyone. I think some people draw and some people are on a desperate quest to figure out why they are the way they are. And some people are both and some people are neither. And there's room to be creative in all in each of those quadrants. Where do you put yourself in those quadrants between just drawing and desperately trying to figure out who you are? I'm both of those things for now. I lately I feel like I've done enough figuring out and I don't really need to do that more. So I'm trying to figure out. I really hope drawing is a through line in my life. So I'm trying to figure out new reasons to draw.

One of the challenges of being in the public eye, especially the way you are, I imagine, is that you get known for one particular thing and people feel really connected to you. But then when you change, it's hard to figure out if you're allowed to be a different person than your audience expects if they got to know you a long time ago. Yeah, I feel that. And it's hard to talk about because like everyone has a different like journey with their art career so yeah mine is that I was known in this very flimsy way as I'm not sure this was the main thing but it felt like the main thing that I was an Instagram personality and I posted a lot of drawings every day on Instagram and they were somewhat autobiographical.

And I feel like that is ending for me to some extent. I don't know if I chose for it to end without admitting it or if it ended and I was forced for it to end. But I feel like I'm being forced to choose something new. Like I can't go on the way I was going on, even if I wanted to. I'm hoping there is something new that I'm allowed to choose. I'm not sure yet. Does it feel like it was a choice in the first place? Did you choose cartoons and drawing as your medium? I chose drawing. I drew as a little kid and I was always kind of praised for it. And I think as a sad teenager, I wanted to be a writer, but like I used the tiny shred of

canniness that I had to realize that I had a better chance at getting into art school than getting into school to write because I had nothing to show for writing. So I chose drawing, even though it was something that I had done as a younger and not sad kid. And I think I'm glad I did, although graphic novels are kind of cumbersome. Yeah, it's also interesting because the drawings in your cartoons, I think sometimes people get really hung up on the idea that everything has to be like photo realistic and you have to draw like a hand that perfectly resembles the photo of a hand. And it's clearly not what you're going for when you draw your cartoons. Yeah, I'm against that ideologically, but I think also I can't do it. So it's lucky that I don't

want to. That's my favorite kind of ideological stances. I both technically can't do this and I am ideologically opposed to it. It's a little self-serving, but also who has the time to draw like that? Why? Why would you draw like that? Like, because I think for a lot of people like me included, I think if you draw something that doesn't look, I'm just going to put this in quotes, right? Perfect. It feels like, well she puts visual thinking in two categories. One category is like people who think in very involved photorealistic pictures, and she puts herself in that category. And then she has another visual category of people who think in symbols and kind of boil that like they're like idea people, but they put visuals to each idea and like the simpler and more direct, the better. And I resonate that that category resonated with me.

I don't know if the categories are real, but I like that. And I think that's what I use drawing for. And that's a really good thing to use drawing for if that's your bent. to use drawing for if that's your bent. It also makes your work feel approachable, I think, because there's this sense of like people can relate to not just the ideas that you're conveying, but the way that you're conveying it also feels approachable. I don't know if that's something you consciously think about or not.

I think consciously about drawing the thing you want to get across and not cluttering up your drawing with things that you're not caring much about. So like I care a lot about emotion. So if I'm using body language or facial expression or some kind of symbol to convey the emotion or the points that I'm trying to get across. That's all I need for my drawing. I think, though, there's a lot to be said for using drawing to explore a little bit. And I think you need a slightly different mindset for that.

You need to be able to just kind of chill and not know where you're going with something which has never been good for me but um because i freak out and i overwork things but um i've been reading good night moon several times a day for the past year and there's just more and more details that you see in that book every time you read every time you look at it and and that's like a very novelistic way to draw just where like there's all these details and the reader can learn more and invent more every time they see them so I think neither of these is a photorealistic thing I just think of photorealistic drawing is like really different it's more like some kind of engineering or something where you're like crafting something and it's not it's very foreign to me I admire it but it's not

to me you don't need that to get ideas across so if someone is listening and they across. So if someone is listening and they have this sense, like it would be fun to try to make cartoons. It would be fun to draw. It'd be fun to express myself in that way. What are three things that they should keep in mind as they get started? What would you tell someone who's just getting started? Even if they were like a kid. I think there are a lot of different ways to do this, but the ways that I do are, one, when I have something that I want to get across, and two, when I just want to make a cartoon and I don't have anything in mind. So for the first way,

when there's something that's just eating you up and you need to solve it and you want to maybe solve it by drawing, it could be a drawing or it could be words. If there's a problem you're trying to solve in your life to tell yourself, I'm going to solve this by summing it up and understanding it and how can I diagram it for myself. And I used to draw them the minute I had those ideas, But lately, I put them in words just because it's more convenient for me. So I email myself an idea when there's something I'm trying to figure out. And I'm like, why is this stressing me out? And then I'll think about why and I'll write it down

in a line and maybe I'll turn it into a drawing later. The other way that I make cartoons is when you want to be a cartoonist, so you have to make cartoons. I like to be somewhere where I don't, where I feel like I can just sit still and doodle. And in my case, I love to sit in a cafe or on a train or somewhere where people are just allowed to sit and kind of observe the scenery without getting out of people's way all the time and then I'll just doodle and like maybe after an hour or two of doodling something will happen and the ideas will start to make sense um and then those ideas that make sense they it takes a lot more like pushing and pulling before it's actually a good cartoon. But I like to do the ideas all in one day and do the pushing and pulling another day.

I love that. I think about the idea first and then try and sum up the thing that is troubling you in your life or that you're struggling with. Try and sum that up in its simplest form by the drawing. Those feel like they're so much more doable than when someone is like, start by drawing three orbs and then connect the orbs with an oval. Eventually you'll have a horse. How would you describe your visual style? Do you have like words that you use to describe it? I have a few different styles, but lately they're all really the same style. It's just a question of whether I magnify it before presenting it or not. My more complicated and illustration-y drawings are not magnified, so they're drawn at the same

scale that someone would see them and my new yorker drawings and my graphic novel drawings are usually like that but my instagram drawings the really essential really really simple drawings i draw them like let's say one to two inches tall and then i magnify them either by photographing them up close with my phone or by scanning them in and blowing them up. So it looks like they're drawn much more confidently than they are. It looks like they're drawn with like a big, a thick line, but they're actually drawn with this like thin pen. I like a Muji gel pen, but everyone is different. I don't feel like pen recommendations really transfer from person

to person. Yeah. It also feels like, um, I feel like it's kind of counter to the whole thing that we've been talking about, which is the idea that like, if you get the perfect tool, then you'll be the perfect artist as opposed to just what do you like and what is the thing you're trying to express? And that is the closer you can get to that is the closer you get to perfect. Yeah, express. And that is the closer you can get to that is the closer you get to perfect. Yeah, I think so. I think if there's something that makes you feel like you're speaking in your normal voice in a way that people can understand you, but withdrawing, then that's a good tool for you. Okay, well, we're going to take a quick break for me to speak in my not normal voice. Instead, I'm going to switch over to my ad voice,

and we will be right back with more from Liana after that. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. And we are back. I want to go back to something you said earlier, which is that if there's something that you want to explore through drawing, you send yourself an email. I'm always really interested in how people, especially people who are doing work that is comedy or funny, which many of your cartoons are, although some of your work

is really serious too. But as a comedian myself too, one of the things that I tell people when they ask like, oh, I want to do this. How do you do it? Is that the biggest thing is actually like keeping track of the things that make you laugh or that you think are funny because you think that they'll stick with you and they just disappear. Like I have a notes app on my phone that I just like have a running doc and I always start a new one. It gets too long because just in the course of a day, there'll be, you know, 30 things that are the seed of something. And when I look back, most of them are worthless and don't even make sense, but a few of them are. So is that how you keep track of your own ideas or the little seeds you send an email to yourself? Yeah, I send an email to myself. I'm experimenting with having a separate email address just for ideas so that I don't like

have to see emails I have to write back to. I love that. I'm so tempted to ask what that email address is, but that would be a horrible thing to do because then people start emailing you ideas to that email address. That's so funny. Yeah, I've never I've actually never told anyone that I even have this email address. But I think that the important part is that it's like something that is like clean and separate where it's like you go in and it's just ideas. It feels like it is a way of keeping it almost like sacred, like that sacred space for just the ideas and the possibilities. Do you have seasons when you have a lot of ideas and then seasons when maybe you're too busy and you don't?

How on earth do you save your ideas for the time when you need ideas? Oh, yeah. Well, I actually feel like right now I am in one of those seasons where I have fewer ideas and I'm just trying to execute. And so these days when I'm like, I should find something funny to put up online. I'm like scrolling back so far. And it's not a good feeling to me. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm not I'm not creative at all. I have to go years back before I find something good that I haven't put out yet. And the reason I didn't put it out then is because it wasn't good enough. But now I think it is. It's really confusing for me. I wish I had like I could find a math person to like really diagram it. Yeah. What type of season do you think you're in right now? I just like you caught me at the end of, I think, the longest period I've ever taken without doing any work because I just I have a residency in Berlin and I have a little kid and I'm alone here with him and so I just spent one week being a tourist with my husband and kid and then one week getting my

kid acclimated to his daycare here which is this whole process in Berlin that usually takes eight weeks but they fast-tracked me and then one week of like a lot of formal meetings at the residency they're really nice but also it's been too too many reasons to not work so I can't and I have all these different streams of work that I'm supposed to be doing. Like technically, I'm here to be working on a book that isn't serious, but I'm pretending it's serious. It's supposed to be like a funny, a funny light book. But also I make cartoons every week. So I really want to have ideas for my cartoons every week and those aren't coming I wish they would come so I'm not I'm in a no phase right now there's nothing happening how do you think of the balance

between like finding that perfect inspiration and using it for something versus making the inspiration come because it's that day of the week where the inspiration has to come. I'm very much in the camp of making it come, but I have really, really mixed feelings about making people read it. I think I'm like, I'm pretty weak and I don't think I would make anything unless I knew I had an audience. So I ended up like roping nice people into looking at my stuff when it's not good. And I feel so bad about that. And it kind of spirals into badness. And I also like feel that I owe the New Yorker a weekly batch of cartoons. And so I feel less guilty about sending in bad cartoons every week because I know they like that I send things in every week.

And if they're bad, at least I made them. But then if they don't buy a cartoon because they were bad, that makes me spiral also because I'm like, I'm worthless. I was supposed to send them good cartoons and they were bad and everyone knows. And yeah, a lot of mixture of guilt and shame. And I think it feels like sometimes when you get to the end of the line and you don't have the cool, impressive idea and you just have to be honest about where you are, those are the most authentic ones. You wrote one a few weeks ago that literally is just called If I'm Being

Honest. And it's like, I've been feeling really blank lately. And then you have, you don't even have the word. You're like, I can't quite figure it out. Is it empty? Is it closed? Is it dense, internal, not verbal? And you talk about how when you feel like that, it's really hard to come up with anything to draw. And so this is, it's kind of a meta thing where you're sending out a drawing that is of how hard it is to. I couldn't relate to this more. This is so funny, but also so clearly you being honest about like sitting in front of the computer and going like, what am I going to put out? How do you get yourself over that hump of like, I'm going to put out a cartoon that's about not knowing what to write in a cartoon? about not knowing what to write in a cartoon for me the hump with that kind of cartoon is not like admitting failure but it is this fear of repeating myself i'm pretty i've been

that the one he described was on my substack newsletter so it's like a three page card comic, let's say as opposed to a single panel cartoon. And I find, I think one can really repeat oneself with single panel cartoons, but it takes a while like I feel like I'm just starting to like hit that wall after making cartoons for over 10 years. But with the longer comics, you get to kind of explore a feeling you have and i don't know about you but i think i have about 10 feelings ever yeah so i'm like i think like i'm sure i've made that cartoon that comic several times already because it's a strong feeling it makes for a good comic but like that like that kind of kind of essential feeling comic gets really repetitive if you're making a new comic every week. And I've been making these for like a year, I think,

and I'm already really repeating myself. So that's really interesting. And that's an argument for making like an even longer comic because then you can kind of sink into one idea instead of pretending that you have a new idea each week. It's interesting because even that sense of repeating yourself is also a really relatable idea. Even someone who's not an artist in any way. I think in therapy, like when you are with a diary or something, it's really freeing to realize that the problem you have is the same problem you've always had. And then like recognizing that can help you just sidestep it. But if the problem is your art, like what are you going to do? Like sidestep, what does sidestepping it mean?

But then also, yeah, if you put the pressure on the art of to always have a revelation, right? Like sometimes it's not necessarily going to be revelatory. It's just going to be a drawing. Yeah, I do feel a little bit like I could be at the point where I just stopped drawing because I've solved the problems that I wanted to solve through drawing. And what, what was the problem that you were originally trying to solve? One was social anxiety, just like figuring out the, I don't know know the hundred forms of social anxiety that torment me and then one other thing had to do with like gender stuff that i think i've had like a thread of like rate like feminist rage in me that has i'd like to make a longer project exploring this, but I think it has a few aspects. One is feeling expected to live for others.

And then one is eating issues. I was kind of ruled by eating stuff for a decade there. And I think I'm still dealing with it. So I talk about it like it's universal. I think it's pretty personal. One was dating, like, how are you supposed to have a partnership with another person that you love? Like, if the history of such partnerships are really, really unequal, like if you're in a heterosexual relationship, it wasn't working smoothly for me and I was trying to figure it out. And I'm not saying I figured any of these things out, but like, I think I outlined the problems for myself to the point where I don't need to keep outlining them. I think like comedy and honesty probably come from the same source. But, okay, I think here's a really wonky theory

that comedy is a... Maybe all comedians actually know this and it's boring, but that comedy is a one-two punch and honesty is a one punch. I always think of a New Yorker cartoon with a picture that's a setup and then the caption that's usually the punchline as a one-two punch. But then when you just make a single simple drawing, it's just honesty. It's not funny because it's all there.

It's all there and there is no saying one thing and then shifting it. We talked about like how sometimes um sometimes drawings will come to you from like an idea or an emotion that you're trying to express or something that you're processing you put a cartoon out that has it's basically a chart or no a graph and on the i'm really pushing my math understanding to the test, but on the Y axis is rage and on the X axis is age and you have it going down. Rage is decreasing with age. So I've been told that I do all my axes backwards. So perhaps it's it should be age on the Y and rage on the X, but I can't fathom. You are certainly asking the wrong person for that one, but it seems right to me. I think time is supposed to go on the X. Yeah, that seems right to me.

Do you feel like your rage has been decreasing just as a natural product of getting older or also as like moving and all of those other things? I know it's really different for everyone, but I think I had some things that I wasn't dealing with that were bad. And then I had a crisis and started dealing with them. So I had this like glowing pinnacle of clarity and rage for a while. And that's where my Instagram drawings came from. And I think I've worked through that thing. And I think I'm seeing a bit more broadly but a bit less like arrow sharp so for me

rage has decreased with age maybe it'll be back like there's lots and lots to be enraged about yeah it makes sense too right I think sometimes the more that you know about life and situations the more rage there is to have I I think sadness has increased. So it's not like I'm like just very Pollyanna, but yeah, I think I feel more helpless about the things that I'm angry about right now. Yeah. Well, we crossed paths at the TED conference and at the in-person TED conference,

which I don't know about for you, but for me is always like, I've only been twice, but it was extremely, it's extremely like intimidating and overwhelming because I checked into my hotel and genuinely, this was the line checking into the hotel. The person in front of me is an astronaut. And the person behind me- Were they wearing the thing? No, he was not wearing his bubble suit, but I But someone said like, oh, that's an astronaut. They were like pointing it out. And then the person behind me was Esther Perel, the famous therapist.

And then I'm in the middle. And I, you know, it's like impossible to be in that situation and not be like, why am I here? And the thing that I guess I'm asking is like, you sometimes end up in situations where it's like everyone else kind of feels big. And some of the power of your work is like admitting that you feel small and not confident. Yeah, totally. And I wonder how you navigate the disconnect between being in a place where it's like, everyone is impressive and confident. And then you're like, but that's kind of not my thing. There's not much of a precedence for it,

for maintaining a career on speaking a lot, like saying a lot of things in kind of a small, normal voice. I want to outline the problems and the benefits. I think together, I'm going to add something to the benefits category. And that is that I don't have too much like imposter syndrome because I take pride in being an imposter. Tell me more about that. How do you take pride in that? Like when people tell me I draw badly, I'm like, what kind of a bougie are you who wants to like who cares about drawing? That's so weird. Like, like it wouldn't even cross my mind to try to draw better. And like I think because of that, I believe that I could draw really, really well if I wanted to, which isn't true. Yeah, I think you could be burdened by too much, by too much skill in something. Although I really wish like, I don't have an MFA in writing, I have no idea how to structure a longer piece.

And I do wish I had a little more knowledge without all of it. But i don't know how to ask for it you have a cartoon that that's kind of got me thinking about that that um idea of like being in spaces where people are really impressive which is it's uh it's two people talking and one says to the other why aren't you bragging are you some kind of loser that's really relatable to me. And I bet you it's relatable to a lot of other people is the idea that like, if you're not bragging about yourself, that you might as well, like, it means that there's nothing to brag about or like the only way to be out in the world is to be like loud and impressive and big. How do you find, how do you balance those?

Like, how do you find the spaces where you don't have to feel like you're a loser for not bragging? Or what do you do when you feel like you have to brag? I'm really bad at bragging. I was really bad at dating. That was part of why I was bad at dating is that I think on a first date, people just in here or even on their like dating profile, people inherently want to show their best side. And I inherently want to show my worst side because I think it's like more connecty, but it does not work. And I did feel that at the TED conference, I don't present myself well. And like, yeah, my husband's a good photographer and he is good at being photographed. And I find like when I

compare myself to him, I find that I'm absolutely the opposite. And I almost hope to look terrible and to photograph things so that they look terrible. And it's some kind of defense mechanism. And don't look at me. I look terrible. So don't even judge me. Don't even compare me to other people. I think there's the defense mechanism part. That makes total sense to me. We've talked a lot about your cartoons that have been about social situations or emotions, but you also have done a lot of work that is about faith. And your most recent book, Let There Be Light, centers around a god that's a woman, but also an artist with self-doubt. And you talked a lot about that. I love that.

You talked a lot about that. I love that. And I just I guess I'd wonder how the idea of believing in something bigger than yourself and struggling with that belief. How does that tie into your work and into things that make you laugh? Oh, that's a really good question. I've never believed in God. I'm of the Jewish sector that I don't, I don't even know how to pinpoint it. I think it's like a specific part of Eastern Europe that we come from, or at least that like some of our Jewish souls come from where it's not an issue. And like, we don't talk about that.

It's like in bad taste to like even consider God, but we believe in custom and we talk about God, but we don't think about whether we believe in custom and we talk about God, but we don't think about whether we believe in them or not. But it was important to me to not believe in a female God rather than a male God. My mom is Jewish, so I have an Eastern European Jewish background as well. And my wife was like, got really interested in Judaism. And so she took like a Judaism 101 class, which I've never seen my mom and aunt happier in their lives to Jewish woman being like, she's going to learn about Judaism. And something that the

rabbi said in the zoom class that I just like happened to walk by as he goes in Judaism, we believe there is at most one God. And I was like, I love it. That's what the rabbi said. He's like, look, there's definitely not two. There might not be one, but there's certainly no more than one. That's amazing. Yeah. I want to take that class. I love the idea of it being important to you to not believe in a female god. That's fantastic. That's a perfect sentence. I think there have been moments in my life where I believe in art and eternity and things. And I think I'm not in one of those moments for better or for worse.

I think when one is sad, one is more likely to believe in something more mystical. But yeah, it does affect your art when you're believing in something. Well, Liana, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This has been an honor and a huge joy. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human.

Thank you so much to today's guest, Liana Fink. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and upcoming live shows at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniela Balarezo, Chloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine, who are, all kidding aside, genuinely each creative and unique artists in their own right. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who frequently reject my excuses that I am not going for, quote, hyper-realistic audio facts, but instead trying to make impressionistic line drawings for the ears. They do not accept that, and neither should they. On the PRX side, our

show is put together by a team that is almost mystical in their godlike powers to create podcasts, Morgan Flannery, Norgale, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. We could not do it without you. If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five-star rating and review. And if you're listening on the Spotify app,

answer the discussion question that we've put up there on mobile. I love to see your answers. We are always so excited to see what you have to say. So please put up your thoughts there. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there.

The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

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