How to Be a Better Human - Julissa Arce on why success isn’t worth her assimilation

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

When do you feel like you've reached "success"? Julissa Arce is an acclaimed social justice advocate, the author of four books, a former vice president at Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch, and was named a 2019 Woman of the Year by the City of Los Angeles. But if you ask her, she’s still redefining what success looks like, and if it matters. Julissa immigrated to the United States at 11, and was undocumented for almost 15 years. In her latest book, and in today’s episode, she rejects the idea that assimilation can create belonging and brings success – and asks what we can do instead to reconnect and celebrate all that makes us unique. For the full text transcript, visit go.ted.com/BHTranscripts Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. One of the trickiest parts about success and chasing success is that everyone has a different definition in their mind.

And sometimes when we get the thing we've been striving for, we realize that it isn't actually what we want at all. It's just a story that's been fed to us by someone else. Today's guest, Julissa Arce, is doing her best to redefine success for herself and to get the rest of us to do the same. Because Julissa has achieved several different visions of success and still has found them unsatisfying. For example, by many people's definitions of it, Julissa has lived the American dream. She moved to the United States from Mexico

as a kid to join her parents who had a business here. And then when her visa expired, Julissa became undocumented. Despite that stress, she worked hard, she graduated college, and she got a high-paying job on Wall Street. But it didn't feel like success to her. So she left her job. She wrote a best-selling book. She became a U.S. citizen. And still, there was something missing. In her latest book, You Sound Like a White Girl, Julissa explores the meaning and the cost of success, particularly when it comes to having to assimilate to achieve it. To me, assimilation is a sort of absorbing of a different culture at the expense of your own, right? That you have to sort of become this other thing that

you weren't really meant to be. And so I've had sort of this journey of pursuing this idea of success and the American dream at the place that I think most epitomizes American culture and capitalism, you know, being Wall Street, to now sort of being a writer and really exploring and rejecting this idea that in order to be successful, we have to assimilate, that in order to be successful, we have to be the whitest version of ourselves in order to be accepted, to find belonging, to find success. We're going to talk a lot more with Julissa about the problems of assimilation and what she thinks true success looks like right after this. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Today, we're talking about success, culture, and identity with Julissa Arce. Hi, I'm Julissa Arce. I'm an author, a writer, and an activist. Julissa, it's been so interesting to read your books over the course of your career as a writer, because it feels like one of the things that you explore both explicitly, but also through the books is what it means to be successful and how that is a changing goal. And in some ways, a goal that is an illusion that you could ever fully reach. Yeah, I think that I had a very specific definition of what it meant to be successful. And a lot of that definition comes from, you know, my upbringing, being an immigrant, my parents coming to the US and sort of really instilling in me this idea that success meant financial success, and that that was the only way to be successful. And over time, as I have shaped

my own idea of success, that has changed. I don't think that success always means money because I think you can be a very rich person and still not be successful in life because I think that it takes a lot more than money to be successful now. The reason I wanted to start by asking about success is because, you know, your book is The Case for Rejecting Assimilation. The title, You Sound Like a White Girl, comes from a real thing that happened to you when you were a kid. Yeah. When I was in high school, I had a crush on this boy.

And we were on the phone and he said to me, you sound like a white girl. And in that moment, I sort of took it as a compliment. I was like, oh, my God, you sound like a white girl. And in that moment, I sort of took it as a compliment. I was like, oh my God, I sound like a white girl, like finally, you know, because I had spent such a long time trying to get rid of my accent, trying to speak English in a very specific way that when he said that to me, I thought it was a good thing. And of course, over time, I've come to realize and recognize that this idea of sounding like a white girl, it really is just meant to keep me in my place. People from my own community and other communities of color, we sort of use this phrase, you sound like a white girl,

as a way to also reject people from our community as though saying like, you're not Mexican enough, or you're not Latino enough, you've sold out, you sound like a white girl. So this phrase just has so many different meanings to me and so many ways in which people use it as a negative thing. And it always makes me laugh a little that at some point in my life, I thought it was a good thing. There's also this really kind of heartbreaking moment in the book where you're looking in the mirror and you're trying to like practice being someone who you're not, right? The fully assimilated white American version of yourself.

Yeah. You know, when I was little, I would stand in front of a mirror and practice my English. I was sort of trying to sound like the white girls in my school. And looking back on it, I think how sad it is that there were no mirrors where I could see my reflection. So everything around me, whether it was the movies, the books, the history, there were so many things around me that never reflected back at me. And so when I saw my own reflection,

it wasn't a reflection that I liked. And I wanted to change it. And the thing that I could change most easily was the way that I spoke, right? I couldn't necessarily change my skin color. I couldn't change my hair. I couldn't change my features. But the thing that I could change was my voice and I could make it sound differently. And in that sound,

hopefully find more confidence, right? And I would see sort of like, just like all of these people that didn't look like me and I would want to be like them. You know, I just wanted to be like them. I imagine many of the people listening to this right now are feeling some version of this, of that they don't quite fit in, that they're trying to live up to an ideal that is impossible, is not really meant for them, in fact, is meant to keep them out. What would you say to someone who's listening and is struggling with this idea of assimilation and of not being able to live up to this impossible goal?

That we should give up that fight. this impossible goal? That we should give up that fight. We should give up that goal because it never satisfies. The way that I opened up the book is sort of with this story about a runner going around a track and she's running around the track and she thinks she's almost done. And then there's like a new race she has to run and she gets the best sneakers and the best coaches and the best everything. And like, still she can't get to the finish line. And that's kind of how I view this undertaking of assimilation, which is just like a never ending race because there's always more things that you have to do in order to be accepted. And when you do those things and like more things appear. And in my own experience, I have found that where I have found the biggest sense of belonging is in simply

getting to know my own history, my own culture, you know, reconnecting with my Spanish, reconnecting with my, not that I ever lost that connection, but more so that I felt like that connection could only be expressed in certain places. You know, like I felt like I had to be a version of myself at home with my family, with my friends, and a different version of myself when I was out in the world. What are some of the steps, what are some practical things that people can do to move away from assimilation and into something that is more successful and whole and fulfilling? that is more successful and whole and fulfilling? Well, for me, the number one thing that has really helped me to find that sense of belonging,

to really feel rooted in this country is learning the history of my people in this country. And it is a history that dates back to before this place was called the United States. And it is through that history that I have really learned just how much I belong here. And that when people say, you know, go back to where you came from, we're like, this is America, therefore you have to speak English. This is America, therefore it's a white people's country.

This is America, therefore insert whatever sort of trope there is out there. And actually, if you learn the history, none of those things are actually true. And I believed those things for a long time, you know, I really did. And so in the sort of the real history, learning the history that were not taught in school, is what has helped me the most. That's like the number one thing that I have done. And it's a gift I feel like I've given to myself. There are so many parts in the book in You Sound Like a White Girl where you talk about a history that I had never heard and that is really incredible and powerful. I mean, one anecdote that really stood out is there's a story

about these cheerleaders in a small town in Texas. Yeah, it's incredible. So there were these in Crystal City, Texas, at Crystal City High School, there was a rule that only one of the four cheerleaders could be Mexican-American. In a school that was 85% Mexican-American. And there were these young girls, they were really 15, 16, 17-year-old girls who at some point sort of had enough. They said, why? Why should there only be one Mexican girl? Like the most, most of us are Mexican in this school. Why should there be any rule about, or any quotas for how many Mexican cheerleaders that can be. And so they took their request to the principal. That was one among other requests to be allowed to speak Spanish in the hallways, to be able to learn

Mexican-American history, to be able to have Mexican food be served in the cafeteria. So the cheerleading part was just one of the things that they were fighting for. They organized walkouts and they organized their parents and they took their demands to the principal and to the school board. And their parents, some of their parents lost their jobs because they were employed by the white families in the town. It really sort of became a community-wide fight for this town to stand up for itself. And to me, that's just an incredible, not just an incredible story, but the impact that they made and the change that they made. And in talking to some of the women now, all of them are still alive. And I've been so lucky and fortunate to

speak to them. And it makes me quite sad that they question whether the change they made matter. Because so many people don't know their story. So many people aren't aware of how they changed this town, how they changed Texas politics. You know, I grew up in Texas and I was well into my mid-30s when I finally learned this story. And I think it's more stories like that, that more history like that, that we need to learn so that we can recognize, one, what our community has been through, and also what we've done about it, right? Because I think sometimes there is this sort of misconception that we haven't really been part of the fight. And that's wrong. It's incorrect. I think that sometimes when people think about activism,

there's kind of a cop-out where people think like, well, this issue is small. So why would it matter? And, you know, there's obviously it's not a small issue, the issue with the cheerleaders and the quota. But to tackle something like that, that was kind of on a smaller scale, right? One school, one issue. It led to a much broader change in this community. It led to representation on the school board.

It led to the city council. It led to kind of a movement. And to me, one of the beautiful parts of that story is the idea that, like, if you start where you are, the change can grow from that. Yeah, and I think you're right that it might seem a small thing, but if you give it more context, you realize it's not a small thing, right? So when I tell this story in the book, I talk about what does it mean to play football in Texas, you know, especially in a small town. I mean, I'm sure lots of people have seen Friday Night Lights, the movie, right? And people have seen Friday Night Lights, the show. And if you grew up in Texas, you know that who plays football and who are the cheerleaders really matters.

It's really a signal of who is in charge, especially in the 1960s. It really was a really big indication of how things were changing in that town and how things were changing in Texas and it's still so relevant today not so much like the quota thing because of course we know now the rules wouldn't be so overtly racist but there's always small ways in which people can find to sort of still control still put people in their place, still keep us from our history. You know, I mean, you see what's happened in Florida with like the AP African-American

studies. And it's all sort of related. Yeah, it does seem like there's this real push right now, a conscious push that certainly has existed before, but maybe it was a little less overt. It was a little more underground and now it's very much in the open to talk about what history is acceptable and what topics are acceptable to teach to kids. And I think you make such a compelling case that it's not just important as information. It's not just important as facts. It's also important

because when you don't see yourself and you don't see your history, you're robbed of something that is that is actually taking something away. Yeah, absolutely. When people talk about the American dream, what do you think that they are imagining when they say a phrase like that? I think it depends who's saying it. The people who still really believe in the American dream are immigrants. in the American dream are immigrants. That's why they continue to come. That's why we continue to leave our families, our land, our food, our heritage, our culture behind and come to this country that often doesn't welcome us. I think for my parents, as I mentioned, for them, the American dream was really about financial success and financial stability and having money to buy these things,

to buy a house, to buy a car, to send your kids to college. And I think for other people, you know, it still means that. It still means sort of like the house with the white picket fence and the family. And I think that for other people, you know, the American dream is sort of like non-existent anymore. Like they don't believe in it anymore because it doesn't happen that often anymore. And it's so much more difficult to achieve that quintessential American dream of the 50s and 60s. really do hold on to that idea, what do you think that it is that they're missing? Because I think that for many of the people who have that kind of like classic version of the American dream, you in some ways have a life that was the embodiment of it. And so I think that when you then say, hey, here's the nuances that people are missing, it carries so much weight because it's like, well, I did all the things and I achieved all the things and it wasn't what you believe it is.

So what is it that they're missing about that? Yeah. One of the frames behind me is the picture of like when I first shared my story with Bloomberg Businessweek. And the headline is how an undocumented immigrant went from selling funnel cakes in Texas to derivatives at Goldman Sachs. And you look at this headline, right? And you're like, oh my God, this undocumented person, they went from selling funnel cakes and now they're working at Goldman Sachs? What? The American dream is like that. It's like a headline. But once you actually read the story, once you actually open up the pages and look, you start to realize that, sure, that's a nice headline, but let me tell you about how much this dream cost me.

And then you can decide if that's a price you're willing to pay to achieve that dream. Or if maybe that price was too high a cost to pay to achieve the things that this person has achieved, right? I certainly feel that way many times. Like, damn, like I gave up so much, you know, I missed so much. It was so painful to go through it. And I don't take away from the fact that I do feel very proud of the things that I have been able to do and accomplish. And, you know, as I say in the book, like I am grateful to be in this country and I opportunities are for people and that I don't recognize the amount of pain that I've had to endure in order to take advantage of those

opportunities. You know, there's a joke that I love, a Judd Apatow joke where he says, everyone always knows that money doesn't buy happiness, but everyone wants to find that out for themselves. Yeah. My own saying about happiness is that money doesn't buy happiness, but it does help. You know, I don't want to give the wrong impression that I sort of think money doesn't matter. No, money absolutely matters. You know, money helps a lot.

We're going to take a quick break because speaking of money, it is time for some ads and we will be right back after this. Don't go anywhere. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. When I was about eight, I was playing in El Zócalo with some friends from school

when an indigenous girl approached us to sell candy. One of the light-skinned girls started taunting her, saying she smelled like caca. Another girl said, I looked very much like that indigenous girl, except I was wearing a Catholic school uniform. I joined in on the ridicule, telling the indigenous girl, Ni siquiera hablas bien español. I hoped that in my insults, the other girls didn't recognize the indígena in me. I resemble mi abuelita Nadina, my dad's mom, who was indigenous.

But we didn't talk about that at home. What you just heard was a clip from the audiobook of Julissa Arce's You Sound Like a White Girl. That's from a section where Julissa is exploring how even in Mexico, she had experienced and participated in some deeply ingrained ideas about which cultures and which appearances were the most desirable. These ideas, they don't exist just in the United States or Europe. They've been exported worldwide, haven't they? I say in the book that whiteness is not something that exists only in America. Everywhere you look, in India and in Korea and other places where creams to lighten your skin are very popular. Different countries in Africa, too.

Colorism is a big thing, right? Where lighter-skinned black people or lighter-skinned people like are viewed as more beautiful. And it doesn't matter where we are in the world, this issue exists. It exists because of colonization. And if you think about how much the world has been colonized, it's like, yeah, you know, Mexico is not colonized anymore. Like India hasn't been under British rule in so long, right? But these ideas that were so deeply instilled in us continue to exist and continue to be harmful to our communities. In Mexican culture, very much so we want to celebrate our European, our Spanish bloodline, our Spanish, our connection to Spanish people. And very often, you hear things like, this person is very beautiful because they're very light-skinned.

Or you hear this phrase, which means, you know, marry someone white to better the race. This idea comes from a time during the colonial period where there was a caste system. And the only way that you could have a better life was literally to marry someone who was lighter skinned than you. You couldn't move up the caste system otherwise, right? And so these ideas come from a very real place of survival and of trying to survive under this very oppressive times. But we haven't yet recognized that we're still living under that rule. In our minds and in our actions,

we're still chained by these terrible ideas that really harm us. And so growing up, yeah, my mom would often talk about my grandma who was indigenous. I have this curly hair, right? And I have this like curls in the back of my hair. And my mom would just always like talk bad about them. You know, she'd be like, oh, put gel on those curls. Like you look like your grandma.

And then she would say it in a negative way. Like the times when I looked more like my grandma, she'd say it as though it was a negative thing. And I just think, wow, like I'm pregnant and I'm having a daughter and I'm just really grateful that my daughter will learn a different way. That even now in my womb, I talk to her about how beautiful it is to be us, how beautiful it is to be Mexican, to be of indigenous roots, and how she will learn a different way and how she will have mirrors where she will see her reflection. I'm glad that you brought that up because that's one of the big questions that I had for you is thinking about your pregnancy and becoming a mother,

how you are going to frame some of these issues for your daughter, knowing that you can't change the outside world 100%, but you can change what happens inside your home. For sure. I mean, I think like I have a friend, her name is Patty Rodriguez. And when she had her first son, she was looking for bilingual books and couldn't really find any good bilingual books, right? And so she thought, I'm going to write a bilingual book and got rejected from every publisher. And publishers told her things like, Latinos don't read to their kids. And she was like, okay, well, then I'm going to go start my own publishing company. And she started Little Librosros and Little Libros is now this like this huge company and publishes tons of amazing beautiful really good quality bilingual books

but I am glad that like I do think that she will have things that I didn't have you know even just like brown Barbies you know how difficult it was to find them when I was growing up. You know, there are now so many amazing young adult books that are written by Latinas with Latino characters. There are those history books that even if she doesn't, is not learning that history in school, like I'll be able to share that history with her. excited for, for her. And I'm excited for, for myself to, you know, to do things a little differently because, because I know more and I have more resources than, than my mom did. And my mom did the best that she could. And, and she, I think did great. And, and, you know, she only knew what she knew, but now I know different. Building on that, how has changing your perspective on assimilation changed your

relationship with your family and with your friends? That's a really big question. I constantly get into this little argument with my family in Mexico about how they need to stop being so racist. You know, I mean, so racist to each other, like, you know, calling our kind of like darker skin cousins, like terrible nicknames. And it's sort of been the way that it's always been, you know, and so nobody kind of views it as wrong. That's just how it is. You know, I think there's still a lot of people in Mexico that think that there's no racism in Mexico, like you can't be racist if you're Mexican. Like, you can't be racist if you're Mexican. And with my friends, too, you know, I think that for a while, my group of friends were people who were pursuing the same version of the American dream that I was. You know, we were all like first gen college students trying to just get into the corporate world and have a nice 401k. And, you know, we were willing to kind of overlook all of these aggressions in the workplace because we were in you know we were just so grateful that we were in there and I think that a lot of my friends have experienced similar things than I have and have moved away from those

spaces but then there are some other friends that that't recognize it. They still think that this is a country of white people and for white people and that we should just be grateful that we're here. And I certainly am not so close to those people anymore, to those friends anymore. So it's definitely changed a lot of things for me. Do you have suggestions for how to speak with more resistant relatives or with immigrants that are just starting their journey? Or maybe even what to watch out for when someone's having those conversations? Like the best example I can think about is with my mom, right? As I said, you know, my mom

knows what she knows. She knows what she was taught from her mom, from her grandma, the sort of same ideas. And so I never approach things with my mom as like, you're wrong. You don't know anything, right? It's more about like, have you considered this? Have you thought about this? Where do you think that comes from? You know, like this thing you're saying about marrying someone lighter skin. Like, first of all, my dad was really dark.

So it's like, you didn't follow that advice, you know? What happened? So it's just asking like a lot of questions, I think. And, you know, I also don't see it as my job to like change people's minds. But when I do go into these conversations, I do really try to approach them from a place of curiosity and trying to share what it is that I've learned and ask a lot of questions about where do the ideas that other people have, where have they come from? And hopefully people will come around, I guess. What are some of the practical things that listeners can do to

celebrate themselves, their culture and their history? I think people can pick up some books by revisionist historians that are telling a more complete version of the history that we've learned. I really think that's like number one, like that's a place where you can really start. It's really learning the history of your people in this country, right? I think for me, like a very practical small thing that I did is I started using my whole entire name, right? So before I would just go like Julissa Arce and I would let people call me Julissa Arce, and I would let people call me Julissa instead of Julissa. And I would let people sort of say Arce instead of Arce and not correct them. You know, now I put my whole name, Julissa Natseli Arceraya. Like that's my entire name. I feel like it's a gift my parents gave me. They were very thoughtful about my name and what it means. And I want to reclaim my whole name, right? So I can't tell you how many

people I meet that tell me that they too have gone by a different version of their name so that they don't feel uncomfortable correcting people or, you know, how they've never corrected people and how they say their name. You know, one thing that's happening right now is like there's so many people going to Mexico City. There's like all these articles and things about gentrification in Mexico City. And it's like Americans gentrifying Mexico City. And some of those Americans are Mexican-Americans. Right. That they're going to Mexico City and going to the pyramids and going to Frida Kahlo's house and, you know, staying in Condesa.

And maybe they feel like this is me reconnecting to my culture, you know, and like, I love Mexico so much. Like I love going to Pujol and Quintanil and like all these fancy restaurants. And it's like, that's great. You know, I'm glad I want more people to go back to Mexico and reconnect with the culture, but to understand that just that is not the culture. You know, just going to Frida Kahlo's house and going to the pyramids and going to Pujol is not the only thing you need to do to reconnect with your culture and to really reclaim your roots. There's so much more than that. For people who are listening and they're really sold on this idea of pushing back against assimilation and instead embracing culture and their own history, but they also feel get two or three generations away, sometimes you're caught between worlds or you can feel like that. What what advice do you have for people who are feeling that? So Spanish is a big subject, right, in in Latino culture.

probably a big subject because certainly for me, knowing how to speak Spanish and being able to speak Spanish does give me a certain connection to the culture. But I also think that understanding why so many Latinos don't speak Spanish can also give you a connection to the culture, right? Like there's a lot of Latinos that don't speak Spanish because Spanish was banned from being spoken in classrooms. You know, bilingual education programs now are sort of very trendy, but for a long time, it was when a person is trying to learn English, it's very looked down upon, right? And so there's sort of these forces and these rules of the past that really pushed people away from Spanish.

I think just kind of even having an understanding of where that comes from gives you a different connection to the culture. And listen, like it's a journey for all of us. For me still today, having gone through what I've been through, having researched the things that I've researched, having written this book, there's still times when I feel like I have so much more work still to do. Well, thank you so much for talking.

I'm such a fan of you and your work and I'm really glad that you made the time to be here. Thank you. Thank you so much. That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you to today's guest, Julissa Arce. Her books are called You Sound Like a White Girl, Someone Like Me, and My Underground American Dream.

I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live comedy shows at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Anna Phelan, Whitney Pennington-Rogers, and Jimmy Gutierrez. Every episode of our show is professionally fact-checked. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Erica Yoon. On the PRX side, our show is put together by Morgan Flannery, Rosalind Tortosilias, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. We will be back next week with even more episodes of How to Be a Better Human. Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.