How to Be a Better Human - Why is talking about money and class so awkward?! (w/ Jonathan Menjivar)

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

How often do you know your friends’ exact salaries? For most of us, the answer is almost never. Yet, in our everyday lives and interactions, we notice the many small cues that make our class differences obvious. So why does talking about money create such an uncomfortable, cringey feeling? How can we cohabitate knowing that in class, we are unequal? And does being rich make you a bad person? Host of the podcast Classy, Jonathan Menjivar, and Chris Duffy break down the answers in this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. I'm going to be honest with you. I am nervous about this episode. I'm nervous because we're talking about a topic that feels very intimate and personal, but it's also a topic that I don't feel like I have very much practice talking about or even hearing other people talk about publicly. And that's class and money.

I once read a study where respondents said that they would rather have people see nude photos of them online than their bank account information. And I'm not sure that I agree with them. I'm not sure which one I'd prefer to have leaked. But I have to say, I do understand that it's a tough call because how much money we make and have and what we spend. Because how much money we make and have and what we spend, ooh, that is a lot to think about putting out there publicly for everyone to see. The fact that this topic and these conversations are a little awkward and messy and uncomfortable, that's exactly why I am so glad that we have Jonathan Menjivar on the show with us today.

Jonathan is a public radio producer, and he's the host of the podcast Classy, which unpacks these issues really thoughtfully and compellingly. Here's a clip from Jonathan's show. So many of us have this class anxiety that we're letting munch on our insides like a little parasite. And it's not just former working class kids like me. This class discomfort goes in all kinds of different directions. So many of us, rich, poor, working class, like me. This class discomfort goes in all kinds of different directions. So many of us, rich, poor, working class, middle class, we're looking at the people around us and either wanting more or feeling bad about what we already have.

And that icky feeling, it gets us in trouble. It puts us in awkward spots, makes us do things we normally wouldn't do. We are going to talk with Jonathan a lot more in just a moment, but first we're going to play a few ads. And to be totally transparent, we need to play these ads so that we can afford to make the rest of the show. So we will be right back after this. Today, we're talking about class and money with Jonathan Menjivar.

Hi, my name is Jonathan Menjivar. I am the host of Classy, a podcast from Pineapple Street Studios and Odyssey. I'm really glad that you're on the show because I've been a fan of the pieces that you've made for a long time. And then I felt like Classy was, I'd binge listen to it. And then afterwards, I just couldn't stop thinking about how these were questions and struggles that I've never been able to articulate and that you put words to. And I think in some ways, that's kind of like the point of the show is that we don't really know how to talk about class. Yeah. Well, first off, thanks. It's incredible for you to say that's really kind. There are other shows that are dealing with elements of class that are about economic inequality and that kind of thing. But a lot of

what Classy is about is class anxiety and living in a system where some of us have and some of us do not have both money and advantages and education and everything that comes along with all of those things. There's an anxiety that can sometimes be produced as a result of that. And it is hard to talk about because it feels whiny. Certainly not everyone agrees about this, but I think that there's a pretty broad understanding that pretending that we are colorblind and that we don't see race or ethnicity, that actually doesn't really do much of a service to the ideas of like justice or equality.

And I think that when it comes to class, we're not necessarily there yet. Like there is this idea of like, let's not talk about money. That's weird. Or like, we only talk about it in the terms of the more dramatic versions. Like when there's a person who's struggling with housing or with feeding themselves, but not these levels of gradation between like how much choice you have and how much you're able to choose and where you're able to go on vacation and what clothes you wear. There's not a lot of conversation around that because it still feels like maybe we're supposed to pretend like we don't notice those things. Because bringing them up is, it's kind of rude a lot of the time, you know? And so I think there is a lot of ways that we do

just totally pretend, like some of us are pretending that we've got less than we have and we're struggling more than we are. And some of us are pretending like we can't afford that vacation that we put on Instagram. I live in LA and there are quite literally sets that look like the inside of a private jet where you can pay to just take photos to make it look like you were traveling on a private jet. That's a thing that people do. That's not just for TV and movies. That's wild. And that is, of course, I'm picking an extreme example, but I think there's the other side,

which is that there's people who are going on a fancy vacation and are only taking photos that look like it's not a fancy vacation. Because I think some of it is, is just feels like showy and weird, like an acknowledgement of like, yeah, I've got these advantages that you don't have. So I do think people are constantly trying to pretend like we're all the same. Um, which to like a some, some degree I understand, like we live in a democracy. We're all supposed to be equal. You know, I don't want somebody like coming in and flaunting their class status in my face all the time, like taking it good that we don't talk about it? Does it exclude people to talk more about money? Or should we be talking more about money and class? And I'm actually even right now, like, equating money and class as being the same, which obviously,

they're not exactly the same. So yeah, that's a big question. Yeah, I mean, I think what I was striving for and sort of pushing in the show is for a level of honesty about everything. I actually had a reporter early on when the show was first coming out. The tagline is something about how we don't talk about class, basically. And he's like, we're talking about class all the time, you know, like, just like basic questions about like, where'd you grow up? What's your favorite restaurant? Where do you live? Where'd you go to school? That's a big one for me. That's always like gets me in the gut. Like these are class questions, you know, and we are all trying to like connect and understand like, where do I stand with you? Like, have you had the same sort of experiences that I have had

in my life? I think we are talking about it. Let's not try to hide it all the time. Let's be a little bit more honest about where we stand, no matter where you come from. You know, I mean, like, in some ways, like this show for me, was a huge coming out of a bunch of things I've tried to hide, you know, like, I never hid the fact that I grew up working class, things I've tried to hide, you know, like, I never hid the fact that I grew up working class, but I did hide just like, how much it affected my everyday thinking, and that I was feeling bad about it all the time. That's part of what felt like a revelation about listening to this. So one of the questions that is for you, one of these trigger questions is, where did you go to school? What are some of the other subtle class questions that put you in your head when you get asked them?

I mean, I think they all relate to that same kind of idea of sophistication and of like being an educated person who moves freely in the world and has an ability to have thoughts and opinions about things like what's your favorite book my god i don't know you know like don't you're like testing me to see like have i read the things that you think are important you know i mean restaurants too like i don't have favorite restaurants there's like three places i go to in the suburb i live in you know like that's those are my favorite restaurants. There's like three places I go to in the suburb I live in, you know, like that's, those are my favorite restaurants and they're, they're not worth talking about, you know? So anything that is about judging taste, I think I'm like a culture monster and I, I

am like constantly devouring all sorts of pop culture and news and everything else. And I have opinions and taste about all of that stuff. And I will judge your opinions and thoughts about all of those things. Those are very triggering for me, for sure. And it's interesting even to hear you say, right, like you have worked in public radio, you worked for Terry Gross, you make a podcast, you live in the suburbs now. Like those are all pieces where people who are listening to this, they don't necessarily have to see you or know anything else about you to already have assembled an idea of you. And to me, part of the things that bother me when people ask me those questions are that in some ways, that mental image that people immediately have assumed of me is exactly right. And in other ways, it's so not who I want to be and maybe not who I feel like I am. So, you know, we contain multiple identities and I'm like, that one is right. But also, I'm not just that or I'm not the working class guy and that like, I will fix my sink if it's backed

up. I'm not going to call the plumber because that's the kind of guy I am, but I do also drive a Prius, you know, like. I think family for me is one of the places where I related the most because my dad is the first person in his family to go to college. He paid his way through college by taking time off and working in an auto factory in Michigan. You know, my uncle, his brother drove trucks for a living like that. That's that side of the family. But then we, my brother and I, we grew up in Manhattan. We went to like a fancy private school and we did that like we were able to go to this fancy private school because we got financial aid and all that.

But we were just in this completely different world. And even me saying that now, right? Like, oh, well, we got financial aid is like, I feel this real need when I talk about my background to justify and qualify and say, oh, but not blank. Right. I have this idea in my head about not wanting to be a rich jerk and not wanting to be associated with people who I perceived to be rich jerks. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the very first episode of our show is called Are Rich People Bad? That question is an extreme version of judging all of this stuff that we're talking about

with class of the assumption on that like like part of the picture when you think of rich people is like a hoarding of wealth and resources like these people have and other people do not and that sucks that's really unfair it's bad we talked to this sociologist named Rachel Sherman, and she had done this big study. And essentially, she was trying to figure out how rich people feel about and justify their wealth. And a lot of it comes down to this question of being good or bad. That if you are like, if you're a good person, if you're nice to people, if you leave big tips, it's okay for you to have all of that wealth.

But if you're like the preppy guy from an 80s movie, you're bad. Yeah. If you're the ski villain. Right. Right. Or Cobra Kai or whatever. Just a quote from that first episode is you say, if it's not clear by now, Right, right. Or Cobra Kai or whatever, you know. I just think it's a great joke and also is to me is very relatable because I kind of really I find myself really clinging to the story of my dad and my family being working class and then middle class. And, you know, now, like what I do for work is I like tell jokes and I write jokes and I sit in an air conditioned room and I have a conversation with someone who I admire. Like that is not hard work. You know, like my dad slept under the car while his roommate would like work the other shift. Like that was how they worked at the factory and not every night.

But like that's how they were like, you know, save time on commute. Like I get upset when the air conditioning isn't working at 100 percent. That's like my struggle. But that's not how I want to be perceived. Yeah, for sure. The only calluses I have on my hands are from hobbies, you know? That's really good. I think about that every time I shake the hand of someone who is like an actual working with their hands person where I'm like, oh, this is a soft hand you're about to touch.

Yeah, yeah. And so all of this stuff also touches all sorts of issues about masculinity. But yeah, there are ways in which I am pretending all the time. And there are ways that are so silly because they're imperceptible to anybody else. Like my stepdad for a long time was a truck driver. And so he had, he'd hang his left arm out the window. And so his left forearm was more tan than any other part of his body. And he had a watch tan all the time. So it is just like burned into my brain and key to me that I have a watch tan. I just like, I leave my watch on when I go to the beach, you know, so stupid. It's so dumb, but it's important to me. Yeah. Cause it's part of that working class identity that I'm clinging to. I mean, it's how I grew up, you know? And so like I pushed a broom

at a movie theater for years, but like, other than that, like I've never done any physical labor, you know. My uncle, who was a truck driver, gave me one year for Christmas, like a Consolidated Freightways jacket. So it had the like little patch that said Duffy on it. And I have never had an item of clothing that I was prouder to own. And, you know, the irony of me, like wearing this, you know, actual trucker jacket to my private high school where it's like, I was like, I'm not like the rest of you, but also I really want to get into a good college.

And of course I'm going to college. Like, it was just like, you know, both of those things were true at the same time. I still have my gas station jacket. I got it pick and save in high school. We will be right back after this short break. Today, we're talking with Jonathan Menjivar, the host of the podcast Classy, about money and class and how to be better at navigating

and understanding it. Now, in one episode of Classy that really stuck with me, Jonathan, you're interviewing this sociologist, Rachel Sherman, and Dr. Sherman finds that in her research, she's really struggling to get rich people to talk about wealth openly, but that when she starts using this workaround, which is to ask them about home renovations, people love to talk about that. And then they would end up revealing a lot about wealth and class and their ideas around it. And one of the things that struck me that she brought up to you is she's talking to someone who is by pretty much any definition of the word rich, has inherited wealth, has,

you know, does not have to worry about money. This person is talking about their home renovation and they say, I don't want the stove that looks fancy in their like incredible open loft kitchen. Yeah, this guy was having his kitchen totally redone and told the crew that was designing and making it to not have one of those big giant chef stoves, the thing that is in every other kitchen that looks like that because he wanted to, to pretend, I don't know. Like, it's not like anybody was going to walk into that apartment or walk into that kitchen and be like, this is like normal. This guy's like totally middle class. Yeah. You know, you're one of us. I see that you have a regular old stove in this

house. Yeah. Uh, there's an interior designer, I believe, who told Rachel that when she's designing things for people's homes, she'll throw in like a piece of Ikea or Crate and Barrel furniture and they love it. Just like one piece, because then that, you know, they've still got some like credibility. It's not all like totally ostentatious. It's not all like totally ostentatious. Well, so with that idea of like, I don't want the stove that looks fancy for a variety of reasons. My wife has fewer hangups around class and wealth than I do, I think because of how I grew up and the kind of transitional being between classes and it's more emotionally loaded. Anyway, when we were one time we were moving in to a new apartment in Brooklyn and we were looking at apartments.

And this really feels to me like my version of I don't want the stove that looks fancy is we looked at an apartment that was in a building that was branded as a luxury condo building. We could afford the rent. It had a gym in the building. the rent. It had a gym in the building. It had, it was like new, had this beautiful, like big, super quiet bedroom and like a fancy kitchen. And the whole thing from the lobby to the apartment looked fancy. It looked expensive. Yeah. And I was like, I cannot live here. I will not be the kind of person who lives in this building. She was like, this is really like, this is a nice apartment and we can afford it. We should live in this one. And I was, I had like a visceral, I will not be able to have people over to see that this is where

I live. I'll be ashamed to be living here. And then we ended up paying the exact same rent to live in a building two blocks away. That was just like second floor walk up that had a different kind of charm, but didn't read fancy, fancy, fancy money. And they cost the same. But for me, I was like, I cannot be seen in this building. I love that. Yeah. What do you think would have happened if people had seen that if you lived there? Well, I'll tell you that the day we moved into the other one, I was like, we've made a horrible mistake. Oh my God, we should have lived in that other one.

This is so bad. You know, I honestly, I was thinking that people would view me differently, that I wouldn't be liked. I was like, people will come over here and they will know something intimate and private and kind of shameful about me, which is that I have enough money to live in this apartment. Yeah, to weird that shame. That's the thing about nice stuff and being able to afford it. Yeah. This is something that you come back to numerous times over the show is, is it okay to have nice things? And do you want to have nice things? And do you want to have nice things? And, you know, this is where like the personal

and the micro and the macro intersect because I think we can all agree that like the fact that some people can't have what they need to survive is bad. And then that gets linked to our personal thing of like, if I buy an organic apple, am I the reason why someone else is in poverty? And it's not as simple as that.

And yet it's not unconnected. So many of these things are tied to cultural things too. Like, you know, in my family growing up, we were working class, real paycheck to paycheck, doing just fine. Like I never suffered really in any way, but there were things that i wanted that i we couldn't afford um but also like my parents were getting new cars every three years there was no like judgment put on that in fact that thing was a point of pride that we like pulled up on the lawn and washed every week you know i drive a 11 year old used previous used Prius, but I also have spent over $200 for a shirt. My dad came to visit me for the first time here where I live, and I showed him one of these shirts. His mouth dropped open, totally understandably.

But I don't feel the same way about his new truck. It's funny the way that we value and judge each other on these things. Another thing that I was trying to talk about is that class is this whole set of cultural values that come along with it that we are often just not talking about very openly. It's interesting when you do talk about it openly because like, let's just take work, for example, right? Like it's kind of, at least in many of the places that I've worked, been a social norm to not talk about how much money you make. But knowing how much money someone else makes is actually a very like practically helpful and informative piece of information when you work at the same company.

You have to ask for raises. You have to know. So salary transparency would kind of benefit us all, but there's this stigma around it that doesn't really help anyone except the person who is making the salaries. Two things that are interesting about that for me are as a comedian, when I first started doing standup and like going to gigs, a lot of times people ask, they don't say like, we'll pay you our standard comedian rate. They just say like, what would it cost for you to do 20 minutes of standup? Oh God. Yeah. And the only way that I ever knew that was to ask other comedians who had done it longer. Hey, what do you get? What should I charge a college if they want me to do

a corporate brunch? What does that cost a college if they want me to do a corporate brunch? What does that cost? And people were so willing to be like, here's what I say. Here's the range I give. And it was just this cultural norm, because otherwise we wouldn't be able to as comedians figure that out. So you interviewed Wyatt Snack on one of the episodes of your show. And one of the one of the jobs that I've had is I was a writer on Wyatt Cenac's show on Problem Arrays with Wyatt Cenac. And one thing that made being in that writer's room so comfortable for me is that I knew every single person who was a writer on that show, we were all making the union minimum, which is still a lot. But so I knew to the dollar, everyone, all the six of us are making the exact same amount of money. And I can just look it up on the union website.

Sure, sure. And as a result, there was no weirdness about money. Like when we went out to like get lunch, it wasn't like, should I offer to pay for lunch or should they be paying for my lunch? Like it was just like, yeah, like we all are making money. Yeah. But the other part of it is like salaries aren't the only place that money comes from, you know, like I work in media where there is like a variety of different salaries, wait, how are people affording the things that they afford? And that, you know, even if you know what people are being paid, you don't know, like, did their parents help them with the down payment? Of course, their parents helped them with the down payment, because that seems to be everybody's story.

You know, did like grandma leave some money? All of those kinds of things is a whole other part about money. That's really tough to talk about. And certainly not a question I want to be asking of anyone. If we do know a little bit more or if people are more open about it, or many people would feel a lot less of shame or disappointment at like, why am I not doing things right? Why is that person able to do this stuff? Because the answer is like, well, it's not that they're better at work or smarter or savvier. It's that, you know, they got a huge amount of money that

you didn't get. Right. Right. I have a very dramatic example of this in my own life, which is that I have now twice been on a game show and won money on a game show. And it's like it's a funny version of basically like inheriting money because it is like, of course, I don't deserve the money that I won on a game show. But also it's so public, like everyone could just watch. I was on an episode of $100,000 Pyramid and I won $109,000. And it just shows the number. When people ask, like, how are you able to spend the past two years working on a book and just doing the podcast and not having to have a day job? I'm like, you can watch the episode where it happened.

You can literally see the moment where I became able to do this. It's because a celebrity guessed the word parks and then I won the money. That's what it was. So when you won the $109,000, has anyone ever made you feel bad about that? Has anyone ever like to have it be so public in that way? I don't think anyone has ever made me feel bad. I have felt bad about it in a way where it's like being really seen that I had a financial windfall. And there's a part of me that's like, should I be doing more with this? You know, like, are you expecting me to like give you money or something? Like just like a kind of look of like, wow, you won money. And I'm like, oh, take me. You can

take it. I shouldn't have it. You should have it. But I also gave a, I gave a huge amount of charity. Like I did give it away. I didn't take it all for myself, but certainly I have felt kind of the arbitrariness of it. I think that was another thing we wanted to explore in the show is the way in which when we're getting away from the world of just like people on the brink, so much of these feelings about class are like things that we're putting on ourselves. As a former working class kid, like I have basically told like two stories about myself to myself my entire life. One is like, I had to fight harder than anybody else to get here. Like, I didn't

have any of the advantages. I went to a state school that I paid for myself. Like, I didn't know anybody, you know, which is not true. Because like, as I like pursued things I wanted to pursue, I like started making connections. And then I knew people, you know, that's how it worked. So it's, it's either that like, I am better than other people or I'm never going to get those things. Like that's part of the advantage of about like talking openly about these things is you get to air them out and pick them apart a little bit, you know? So I want to ask you to be prescriptive for a second. And I want to do it from two angles. So first, we've been talking a lot about like you have achieved a level of class or material

success and feeling kind of like some shame or like you don't deserve it or maybe some version of imposter syndrome. What would you say to those people who are feeling like I don't belong even though I seem to belong here? How would you what advice would you give people who are coming at it from that level? And then I want to talk about it from the level of people looking up. It's like the same thing that my therapist taught me about like any sort of weird thing that I'm feeling is just to separate yourself from yourself, you know, to like float above yourself and sort of just like really assess

outside of your own body, outside of your own head, what's going on here? Let's say it's work we're talking about because that's where a lot of the stuff came up for me. I'm here, I'm doing the work, I'm doing a good job and somebody is paying me to do that work. And it doesn't matter that I got here a different way or that my experiences and the things I am familiar with are different than other people or that I'm not reading the same magazines or whatever as some other people. You're there, and there's probably a reason that you're

there. And what about for the people who they want to be a part of this world that's above? They're striving for this world, but there's all these class, kind of invisible class markers that are hard to break through. Do you have any practical advice for them? Because you kind of have done this. I think what I would say is like, don't do it the way I did it. Like, I turned myself into a parody, you know, like, I used to work at this American Life, I showed up to the office in like, a blue blazer and and loafers without socks. And somebody was like, Are you going sailing? What like, what's happening? And like, i like i like dressed a certain way that i thought you know i and i ended up looking like thurston howell the third you know it was just like over the top and i i think in trying to be pretend like i was that like you know ivy league educated guy, I turned myself into a parody.

I think there are certain cultural markers that maybe make it a little easier for the people in other classes to accept you. But why play their game? I think that's what I ended up learning. And what about for the people who have a lot of money or class or high class, they have this status and they're trying, you know, you talk about people trying to not be entitled to be like a good rich person and not a bad rich person. How should people question their own class or their own blind spots in a healthy way rather than a way that kind of contributes to silence in these conversations.

I think it's again about being honest with yourself and being honest with the, if you do have those advantages of really looking at them. I think there is like a whole movement of younger rich people who are really focused on acknowledging their privilege and giving away a lot of their money. And I find that to be pretty admirable. We don't live in a communist country. Like things are never going to be equal here, but acknowledging it and doing what you can

with your advantages. And also I think like sharing secrets you know like that's what is another huge part of this is like coming from where i came from there's like a whole way of navigating systems that i didn't understand you know and i think this happens in all sorts of ways like there are reasons why like the rich can navigate the justice system, you know, and poor people are the ones who are in jail for in much larger percentages. That is true in all sorts of ways in work and education. And so like, I'm always advocating for people to share as much as possible, the ways in which they understand how a system works and if they see that people around

them don't to share that like i think in the workplace you know like yeah rather than let those people struggle like setting people down and being like okay here are the things that you don't know you need to know to be successful in this place and here's how you can work on those things yeah every place has a kind of a cultural unwritten rules and here's how you can work on those things. Yeah. Every place has a kind of a cultural unwritten rules. And the more that you can make those rules written or at least explicit, the more that everyone can succeed in a place. Not just pay transparency, but let's be transparent about everything. Totally. The way that this relates to parenting and to kids, because I think a lot of class is also,

I mean, you and I have, we've referenced our fathers so many times in this conversation because there's this generational thing of like, what do you inherit and what do you want? But also then what do you want for your own kids?

And I know you are a parent and I have a baby that is under a year. And so like thinking about him, so much of the things that I feel like, okay, that's good that I have accomplished that. But then I'm like, but I don't want that to somehow mess you up.

I don't want you to be bad or entitled or also to not have to struggle because struggle builds like meaning and character and purpose. But I don't want you to struggle too much because struggling too much, you know, builds trauma and deprivation and strife. So how do you think about that as a parent and someone who's thought about these? My wife and I just try and be as open as possible as we can with our kid. We're not in a position where we're not like struggling and that she has like all of the choices in the world that she could ever want. She is certainly growing up different and with more options available to her than either of us did. But it's, it's a weird balance. Cause like,

I want her to know that, but I don't want her to feel guilty about it either. I think for the most part, we are just generally trying to build an awareness. Like we live in a town where there are some extremes, you know, she's got friends who are really wealthy and friends who are poor. She's 14 years old now. We don't have to explain a whole bunch of this to her. She can see it when she visits people's homes. It is that awareness I want her to have of just like what you are experiencing growing up in this house isn't everyone's experience.

There's kind of this like pity then that comes from like, oh, if only everyone had this stuff. And I think that one thing that is when I think about like the benefit in my own life of having had family members who were of a different class is to be like, they're doing great. Money is not the only marker of happiness and success and love. There was a time in my life that's really to admit, where like my working class family, I'm like, oh, they don't have the things I have. But what I was doing was judging them by my tastes and desires, you know? And like, my folks are doing just fine. Like my dad lives in a house in the desert. I think that thing has five bedrooms it's got a pool there are pillars on the inside it's not where i would choose to live you know but like he is an immigrant from

el salvador who has like more than he could ever want he worked like crazy for it you know his body suffered for it he worked in factories. He worked at Walmart and Amazon, worked in a shower door factory. He killed himself for it. Me sort of looking down on the working class in that way is shameful. It's awful that I had ever thought that way. But I think that's what we do. As much as we say that rich people are bad, we hold that up as the example of like what we should be striving for. And then and then we say that like working class folks are like resentful and angry, you know, and that's why they're voting for Trump. That story is like a way too simplistic way of looking at people's lot in life, you know? Yeah. I mean, listening to Classy and also just talking with you now, I feel like one of the things that you're helping me to articulate or kind of pull out a little bit is the way

in which so much of popular culture has simultaneously like valorized wealth and made it so that like having more money is always a good thing and how that is a lie. But then also has created this situation where there is a huge systemic problem where people do not have enough money to survive and to be able to worry about anything other than money. The fact that level of money should be something that everyone has access to doesn't mean that all money is good. That meaning comes from having more money. And that those two,

we often link together. I mean, if there was a universal basic income. Well, Jonathan Manuvar, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a total pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate you making the time. Thank you so much. being on the show. It's been a total pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate you making the time. Thank you so much. That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Jonathan Menjivar. His podcast is called Classy and it is amazing. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team that is as classy as they come.

On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balarezo, Ban Ban Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Helene Lott, Antonio Le, and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas. On the PRX side, the team of geniuses who enable me to pay my bills are Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Maggie Goreville, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be able to do this as a job. Listeners, make a podcast.

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