How To Date - How to cope with heartbreak and rejection

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Elizabeth and Mel face one of the most challenging parts of dating: heartbreak and rejection. We are joined by life coach and author Michelle Elman who went through a devastating, public break-up after being notified via an Instagram DM that  her fiance of 24-hours had been cheating on her. Michelle, Mel and Elizabeth explore the impact an experience like this can have and how best to cope with it. We discuss surviving rejection and the lessons that heartbreak can teach us, in time. Plus: how to feel hopeful again and embrace the ‘what next?’ stage of self-discovery. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk You can find out more about Michelle Elman by visiting her website here.  If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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For more info, visit bemo.com slash eclipse. That's our website. Terms and conditions apply. There you are, pushing your newborn baby in a stroller through the park. The first time out of the house in weeks. You have your Starbucks, venty, because, you know, sleep deprivation. You meet your best friend. She asks you how it's going.

You immediately begin to laugh. Then cry. Then laugh cry? That's totally normal, right? She smiles. You hug. There's no one else you'd rather share this with. You know, three and a half hour sleep is more than enough.

Starbucks, it's never just coffee. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's. Welcome to How to Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers

where you can binge all episodes now, add free, all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Hello, Mel. Hello, gorgeous. So you are wearing beautiful pink today. Thank you. Would you just, is it magenta? It is my signature colour.

I'd say it's a magenta. It feels like it has a blue undertone. It's stunning on you. Thank you. And it's ushering in the pink of romance. Oh. Into our lives. Like rose quartz.

Exactly. And last week we spoke about taking it to the next level. Yes, we did. And this week, it's going to be a big one. We are discussing heartbreak and rejection. This is going to be emotional. It is. Yeah.

And we want to reassure every single listener out there that we have been through it and we do understand. And we have an extraordinary guest coming up who really can speak to the depth of this experience, because it is something that is so unbelievably gut-wrenching, particularly if you've got to that stage where you think you found the person, where you've made yourself vulnerable, you think you're on the same page, and then something can happen that can throw you into a tailspin and leave you facing a very different kind of life, or at least that's how it feels at the time. Yeah. And what I would say about this episode, too, is that

it might be a little bit tough for some people to listen to and if you're in a position now where you're going through a breakup or if it's very recent and very raw maybe just earmark this one to listen to a little bit later because it might be a little confronting but having said that there's going to be some really good information in here so when you're ready come back to it and listen to this and hopefully get lots of lessons

and support from us here too. Thank you for saying that Mel. I've been through a divorce and I've been through multiple relationship breakups and I think they're some of the hardest times of my life

and we will get more into that but what I want to say from the outset is that Mel and I are living proof that you can survive it and I used to hate it

when people said to me you'll look back one day and you'll be grateful for this breakup it's the least helpful thing you can say when someone's really in the thick of it And annoyingly, I now look back and I am grateful for those breakups. I'm grateful that I'm not with those people, that I'm not in those relationships.

I'm also grateful for what they taught me. And one of the main things that they taught me was that I could survive them. Yes. And let's call out the elephant in the room. You and I are both married. We're both in happy relationships now. But, dear listener, we have been there. And we're not talking to you today from a position of smug married.

We're talking to you from a position full of empathy because we have been there and we know how hard it is. So please take this in the spirit for which it's intended. Beautifully put. And on that note, I would love to bring in our fabulous guest because she will be able to speak to so much of this. And I know that so many of you will already know who she is and her. story and we wanted to bring her in straight away because why waste time on us when we've got the fabulous Michelle Elman, the life coach and author who you might know from ITVs this morning. She's the author of bestselling books including the joy of being selfish and the

selfish romantic. So she really does know a thing or two about modern romance. In 2024, Michelle got engaged to her partner of three years. She posted on Instagram the first time she had shared his face with her 500,000 followers. Within an hour, she received a DM that would change her life forever. It was from one of her followers revealing Michelle's fiancé had been unfaithful. I can't even imagine how that must have felt, but she's with us today. Michelle, a very, very warm welcome to how to date. Thanks for hurry me on. It's honestly so unreal being in front of both of you because I'm such a big fan. Oh, that's so lovely of you. Well, we're huge admiration. of yours. I wonder if we could structure our conversation into three parts. So the first one

we'll be dealing with the shock, the immediacy of what happens. The second part will be dealing with the pain and how that affects you. And the third one is the bit that we want to get to, which is the survival, the recovery and the lessons that we learn along the way. Michelle, can I take you back to that moment that you had this horrendous discovery? What was the shock like for you? I've never really had anything like this where I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep like I've, for context I've been through some shit in the world

so I've had 15 surgeries I've gone through PTSD trauma all at a very young age so I'm a tough person so for something to rattle me and rattle me like this it was the whiplash of I was engaged on the Saturday

on the Sunday, I posted it 24 hours after it had happened. And within an hour, I got a DM. And that day, he was with me the whole time. Like, he was with me when I got the first message. The first message said, hey, is your fiancé and his name? I trusted him so much I thought it was a colleague. So I was like, oh, this person knows you. When I say I trusted him, like not only did I trust him,

my friends trusted him, my family trusted him. He had asked my dad for his blessing in December. Yeah. How long had you been together when you got engaged? It is. So. I'm so sorry. And how long had he been unfaithful for? Six months. The trauma of that. I mean, is there such a thing as betrayal trauma? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

So the thinking around trauma is that it takes about three months to settle in. And I would say that's accurate to my lived experience, that the first three months, I couldn't understand why I wasn't more angry and I couldn't understand why I wasn't more sad all I felt was grateful and a relief I was like I was saved thank God this woman messaged me like at least I didn't marry him

I was gonna wait until our marriage day to share a photo of him that's where yeah it was it was survival mode I remember there were points especially within the first week there would be times I would just stare out the window like the motto for that phase in my life was one day at a time even just one hour at a time. And so that first day I didn't make any decisions about whether to stay or leave.

He shockingly left five minutes after I found out. So the information. So he didn't leave me, like the relationship. We were actually on the way to go to London. And he recalls me telling him to leave the house. I don't remember me saying that. I don't remember a lot of that day. And so he thought he was being respectful

by respecting what I wanted. Well I wish you to have that respect six months prior Well yeah and also you don't actually leave And I ended up getting all the information from For lack of a better term the other woman I actually called her and at this point I didn't trust anything he said anyway So she told me everything

And she wasn't the only one there were two other women Which he admitted to And then the ironic thing is Because we've been trying for a baby for eight months I had booked a solo trip because that's one of my like top goals in life was like I was I've always wanted to go on a solo trip so I thought like well since I'm going to be pregnant soon let's go and I decided to still go and I think that's actually where a lot of my healing took place like I it's not what I planned

and it wasn't what I was expecting at all but like I'm tough I can do this and like it was my It's my first heartbreak. Like, he was the first guy I ever loved. And I still do love him. That's the, like, sad part. And I think sometimes people get scared of saying that because especially when I say it amongst my friends, they worry that I'll get back together with him.

But I'm a big believer in you don't decide to stay based on how much you love a person because actually you'll always stay, especially if it's a long-term relationship. And then I called him at, like, six in the morning. And I was like, it's over. I love you, I probably always will, and I forgive you. I actually forgive him immediately.

But this can't work. There's no, there's no trust, there's no respect, there's no any of it. Did he have an explanation as to why he chose to do this? So my personal belief from my coaching, learning, training around psychology is you cheat for two reasons. One, because of the individual, so because of him. And two, because of the relationship. People who cheat for those different reasons behave in very different ways. So if they want out of the relationship, they leave clues everywhere and they want to be found out.

He was not one of them because he deleted all the evidence. Literally the only way I could have found out was through this woman. And ultimately, if there was something wrong with the relationship, he wouldn't have proposed. So it was a him problem. And what he says is, I never felt good enough for you. and I always thought one day you'd find out how awful a person I was and essentially it was a self-fulfilling prophecy of like I said to him like it's really sad because you were good enough for me

you've always been good enough for me but you then acted in line with that belief and that's what made you not good enough but he never even told me that beforehand so interesting that there's this lack of honesty and I say that without judgment there was just a fundamental lack of honesty there honesty it sounds like with himself, about himself as well. But there's so much that I want to pick up on in that story that you have expressed so powerfully. So thank you first of all. One of them is, as you so rightly put, there's a difference between love and the actions of a person. You can still love someone even when they betray you in the worst possible ways, even when I'm not saying

he was, but even when they are abusive, I have personal experience of that in the sense that I was in an abusive relationship, mostly emotional abuse, once physical. And I remember when that physical incident happened, vividly thinking, I don't want to tell anyone. Because if I tell any of my friends or loved ones, I know that they will say, I should leave. And I don't want to hear that because then I'll have to do it. And I think that that's a really important distinction to make also as it pertains to the aftermath of a breakup or a rejection, you can still love someone and it still be right that you are not with them. And whoever it was who gave you that advice, take it hour by hour, I was lucky enough to have a best friend, Emma, who you know, who's also

a psychotherapist, who is unofficially my life coach. And I remember her saying, do whatever you need to do, whatever it is on any given day that you feel you need to do within the parameters reason. Do it. If you need the bottle of red wine, you need the bottle of red wine. If you want to text that person, text them. Now, not everyone would agree with that. And as it turned out, because she'd given me permission to do whatever I needed to do, I didn't need to do all of the things. But it was about having grace for myself in whatever I was feeling and not feeling guilty about the feeling itself because there's enough to beat yourself up about at that stage. Well, so do whatever you need to do.

I believe in that. The one thing that I was like, I really want to date. Sorry, this is amazing to hear because I did that too. Yeah. And everyone judged it, but it was, there was not a moment I've regretted it. It was the hope I needed. It was reclaiming my sexuality, especially after trying for a baby. Like, that's not a romantic process.

No matter what anyone says. I met great, wonderful, emotionally intelligent guys. And because I was so fresh from a breakup, I was so transparent and they were so transparent with me. And like, especially casual relationships get treated like this dirty, trashy thing. It was far from that. Like, we both had a duty of care to each other in a casual setting. That's so interesting, Mel, because it relates so much to what we have said about getting to know yourself and being able to show up. authentically. And I wonder if there is a world in which, as Michelle and I experience,

can you use dating casually as a way to do that? Absolutely. And I love the way you said, you basically went into a verbal contract with these men they had these casual relationships with. So it's honest. It's adult. You know, it's fair. There's consent there. No one gets hurt. Let's reclaim the word rebound. Yes. I'm so here for that. It doesn't have to be a negative thing. Like people say it in a judgmental way, don't they? Oh, that's just a rebound relationship. But that can be so positive and therapeutic. Trampolineing is fun. Yes. As long as you're wearing a good bra. Yeah. Did you have any fear at this point? So we're talking about the immediate aftermath, that three-month period where you were just still processing and possibly in fight or

flight. Was there a fear attached to being single? There was a fear around my age, if I'm being really honest. I was 30 trying for a baby. I was doing, I was doing it all right. I know 30 is not old. Like, I want to be very clear about that. But there was a thing that morning where I went, what if this means me not having a baby? And what if I believe there will be another love of my life? But what if I don't meet him in time? And there was a moment. And there was a moment. It was like this voice almost outside of myself of like, I'd rather never be a mother than be a mother to his kid.

I don't want to bring another version of him in the world. And I've never thought that. I've never had that thought of like, I think I'm okay if I'm not a mother then. I think it was almost like this more adult version of a realisation I had when I was 21 where my first relationship was quite emotionally abusive and horrible.

and I remember I left that relationship and the first feeling I had was relief and I was like single is better than a bad relationship and then I realized like this now more grown up version is it's better to not have a kid than have a kid with a father who either is not going to participate or not be a good role model to that child.

This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin turbo V8 engine, the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar rally. The ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no, but a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry, nope. But a box fan? Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. I have a very specific question, which is whether you both believe in the block the X tactic where there's no community.

you block them from more forms of social media. Yes, I do. I think you need some space after the breakup. I think there is a potential to be friends at some point, but I also think for healing to take place, you need a period of no contact. You don't get that access to me anymore. Yes, I think that's key.

I've done both ways, and although it was harder, the blocking and no contact was probably the better one for me. And the thing that really made sense to me was, no, you don't have access. to me as a friend, as a partner, and you also don't have access to my life through the window of social media.

Mel, do you have a strong view on this? I absolutely agree with you. I really do. In fact, I've had conversations with some clients where we've taken that even further to not just block the ex-partner, but they're friends as well. And that's not an FU to the friends,

but letting them know, I'm blocking you for a period of time because I can't see him on your profile. him in shared photos with you. So just removing that whole sphere to make sure that there are no trigger points. I love that you talk about giving yourself grace. I think that's something that our listeners could really learn from

and take on board because I think when things like this happen there's a tendency to be really hard on yourself and to be looking for, you know, irrational things like what did I do to deserve this? Not that you ever would, but that's where the brain goes, of course, you know. I think that's where my life coaching training came in because I think if you start that, you're going to do damage to yourself. Like, that's where your pain of the heartbreak is actually self-inflicted.

There's a life coaching exercise I give of writing 100 reasons while you're datable, and I do it. I recommend it all the time, but I've also done it. I know what I bring to the table. Like, it's on you that it's your loss, and it's on you that you mess it up. I'm not taking accountability for something I did not do. Preach! Absolutely brilliant.

Love it. Before we move on to the second part of the process, which is the pain and how it affects us, I wanted to ask about rejection and heartbreak from the other perspective. So perhaps someone who has done the breaking up and how much self-sabotage might play into that. Mel, could you just give us a little insight into how heartbreak plays out in that scenario? Well, it's interesting, Michelle, in your ex's story. You know, you describe. him feeling so unworthy that he engaged in behaviour that pushed you away and ultimately ended the relationship. And that is something that we see. You know, with people with really low self-esteem, they often, it's this sense of, well, I'm going to hurt you before you can hurt me. And it can unravel some of the best relationships.

It's a desperate set of behaviours on his behalf, really, isn't it? If that's where it's coming from, if it's coming from that. that desperation for validation above and beyond what he was getting from his relationship. It's an absolute cry for help. I wonder if we can talk now about the process you went through after those initial three months where you went on your solo trip, you threw yourself into dating, you had your sister and your loved ones that you could call on, part of that was numbness and staring out of the window. and then you get to the point I imagine

where the reality begins to hit you. Did you feel at that stage, sort of three months in, that you were reconfiguring the life you thought you were going to have? Yeah, I missed his family a lot. I had a really great relationship with his family because my family's not in this country. Like, they really were my, like, support.

The loss of the companionship was a really big thing and especially at the three months mark I started thinking about how like as a society there's an author called Robert Putnam who talks about loss of social capital we have become so reliant on our romantic partners that it is so much more than just the loss of the person I was dating it was my best friend it was my family like I've never had to go through something alone for the last three years and that makes you feel so lonely. And I think also when like the crying and everything hit, like there's a part of me that was like, is this ever going to end? The lowest I probably felt being completely honest was

about a month ago. And it was the weekends. Like the weekends were just so hard. And it's a loneliness I don't really think I've ever really gone through. And the reason why I love him is still love him is because he actually gave me more love than he took away. And, like, I know everyone thinks I should be focusing on the infidelity. But the loss of that, I just try, yeah. Yeah. Michelle. It's the toughest, toughest thing.

It is so tough. And I'm so proud of you for living through it. I also feel like it's something that's not really spoken enough about. Yeah. That it is the practical day-to-day. That is a little bit harder. Like, there would be moments where I'd get off the tube and I was like, oh, I should check with him whether we have milk.

And I was like, oh, like, that's not my life right now. And you kind of, you do forget. Yeah, it's that feeling, isn't it, when you wake up in the mornings and your first thought is to roll over and your partner will be there and then you remember sort of five minutes. waking up. And that horror of abandonment, that's what it triggered in me. And it's such a difficult and horrible place to be. And like you, weekends were soul crushing. More importantly, people move on. Like life keeps going. And you feel like you're still stuck. I won't lie.

I had a few, why are we still talking about this? And I was like, well, I didn't really feel it in the first three months, but I'm feeling it now. And I think sometimes that's, where like breakups don't come in order and so when all your friends your friends are doing the best they can my friends are certainly doing the best I can but they also have things they're going through and they they supported as long as they could and then at some point I have to stand on my own two feet which unfortunately also coincides with the point where I felt the worst yeah Mel what advice would you give to anyone listening to this right now who is in that stage that Michelle so powerfully describes, where maybe they really need to work on building up

their own self-esteem, but what do they reach for to do it? I'm going to go back to what you said earlier about giving yourself some grace, you know, and I think this is where being kind to yourself is so, so important here, because, you know, we've all been through breakups, and one of the things that we learn is that one of the hardest things is about the way we treat ourselves. Now, thankfully for you, you've got a lot of training in this area and you're very self-aware. So I'm hearing that you're able to separate out, you know, some of that self-talk. But still, you know, as you're highlighting today, it's very raw right now. Yeah. And like any grief process, it's not linear. There's two steps forward,

three steps back. And, you know, I think it's very insightful there that you've pointed out that your friends have moved on. You know, they sort of have this. idea that she's gone through a breakup, we'll give her some love now for, you know, 17.4 days, and then we'll move on. But you're here now. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western.

Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Oh, hi, buddy. Who's the best? You are. I wish I could spend all day with you instead. Uh, Dave, you're half mute. Hey, happens to the best of us. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. That idea of being pitched into this new world where your future, you're future. future vision of life has been snatched away from you. Do you think, Mel, that that also presents an opportunity? Absolutely. I guess you've got to arrive there in your own time and space, don't you? You're only, as an individual, will you know if you've arrived there? But absolutely,

it's opportunity, you know, as all transitions are. Once you can separate yourself from some of the pain and move through that. And of course, the only way through it is through it, as you're experiencing right now, Michelle, and thank you again so much for sharing this with us, because I don't know about you, darling, but I can feel it. We can feel what you're experiencing right now. What's interesting about it coming at different phases, though, is actually that hope and that possibility of the future actually came very early on. So it's kind of carried me through. My summer, I joke, I had a hot girl summer. I really did. I love that. Because I had a free diary, which means I could say yes spontaneously. It made me question a lot of things I thought

I wanted in my life because you become a different person. So what you want becomes different as well. And then also in the dating, I was like, what's the one thing I didn't do the last time I was single? And what's the opportunity I get to do now? And the one thing I probably had slight regret around is I'm a very safety conscious person and I've always been quite careful around like having someone in my apartment and as a result I probably didn't have as much fun as I wanted to have because I was so nervous and I was like I'm actually I'll still be like safe and do all the checks especially on dating apps of their real people and all of that but I wanted to let go of the fear around it and so it was that thing of like I get this opportunity again to

be single. And I truly think we talk about being single in such an awful way in society and I just wish people knew the joy and the power that it had. Well, you've just changed it from saying, I have to be single to, I get to be single. I think that's very powerful. And I also relate to that, drawing a discreet veil over it, but I definitely, as someone who had been in a series of monogamous relationships from the age of 19 to 36 when I got divorced, different people,

but essentially back to back, I was like, I need to get out there and sew some oats. And I did that totally unapologetically, and it was brilliant. I don't regret a single second of it.

Me neither. And I look back on it with a lot of fondness, also glad that it's in my rearview mirror, but really glad that I did it. There were moments when I was dating, I was like, I can't believe I would have died

not having experienced this. I love that. mindset. I was actually going to get married to a man without having to experience this. Yes. We'll talk about it when we're off. But you don't talk about how dating in your 30s are so much better than in your 20s. That's another thing. Because people are more self-aware. People are more emotionally intelligent. And we always talk about it like past baggage. But actually, people have lived a past. And that's okay. Because they've also learned from it. Yeah. I just want to pick up on what we were saying there about working through something. and living through something and that being the only way to go on the other side of it. And I think that's so true. And I also think that heartbreak can sometimes feel, as we've discussed, very like grief. And the metaphor that I reach for when I think about grief in my life is that it's not that

I've ever gotten over it. It's that it's like a tiny drop of red paint in a bucket of white paint. You stir it together and it will forever change the color of your life. that bucket of paint. It will become this kind of pale pink. But there's something really extraordinary about that too. That in a way, that's a means that you will always be shaped by this thing that you experience, both the bad and the good, that there's something about that that actually informs how you experience life, the texture. And I think that's really important. All of that stuff is, is, if you want, if you wash away the whole relationship and diminish it and just want to

focus on, he's an asshole, you don't get those gifts. Whereas I'm like, I learned so, I'm so grateful for that experience. If that's the only experience I get of having been in love, I'm glad it happened. There is no part of me that regrets, even if I knew how it ended, I would have done it again. Oh, better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Let's move on to the final part, which is the survival, the recovery and the lessons. We've already heard so much about that from your perspective, Michelle. I suppose one big question is, can you forgive someone who has treated you badly or not turned out to be the person you thought they were? And should you forgive someone for your own benefit? Mel, what's your take on that? Well, I'm very interested in the

idea of post-traumatic growth as opposed to the stress that we talk about more often. And I think one of the aspects of that, so in order to move through that process and actually grow through it and grow beyond it, is a certain type of forgiveness. Now, whether that is forgiveness of the person or the behaviour or of yourself, I think that varies, given any, whatever situation you're in. But I think there has to be an element of forgiveness because that's that that is a function of letting go and until you let go of the angst you cannot move through it. I love that you say forgiveness of yourself can be part of that because it very often is that isn't it? It's forgiveness of yourself for making the decisions

but you did the best that you could with the available information at the time. Michelle have you forgiven him? Yes, I did immediately. I did it the next day. I was like, I forgive you. People might not understand that. I was about to say, that was so impressive. How did you do it? You know what? At the moment, I didn't know either.

And I don't know whether it's because he might not have been the best partner, but he was the best family I knew. But how did you forgive his decision and his behaviour? Because it was all about him. He wasn't trying to hurt me. Like, it was him acting out of his insecurity. and whether people want to call me naive or not, I don't think the intention was malicious or even about me.

I don't think he was thinking about me. I think he loved me to the best of his ability and it's on him that he didn't improve that behavior. It's on him that he wasn't honest with me. I just, I knew him. This is where people, I find it hard to say the truth because the truth makes me sound naive. But the truth is, I don't think he was trying to hurt me.

He didn't believe he deserved a good, healthy relationship. And so he ruined it. But he wasn't thinking about it. That's what I believe. Gosh, I think that's such an important point. And the fact that you can say, I knew him, I think there's something there that is probably very valuable for listeners. To reassure yourself that you did know this person,

and you do know this person and actually can you apply that knowledge to this situation in a way that is most forgiving of yourself too? But very hard to do in the moment. Yes. You know, because most of us are not life coaches. You know, most of us just, you know, normal people going through life will be so deep in the emotion and it's so fuzzy.

You know, it's vital flight going on there and, you know, it's so impossible to actually have that coherent thing. thought through the process and to be able to get that distance and get perspective. I think one of the things I kept coming back to was that idea that actions are character, both the good actions and the bad actions. And ultimately, with my last breakup, I came to the conclusion that that person wasn't the person that I was inventing him to be because of the way he'd acted. So that was my clear evidential base.

So therefore that story that I'm so good at telling myself that it would all work out if only all of that was just a story based on a lie I was telling myself because I kept returning to the actions and I found that quite helpful. It sounds really dark and nihilistic. But the other thing that I would like to say about that particular breakup

is that I genuinely am so grateful for it now because in the aftermath of that breakup, I felt like such a failure in that moment. And that moment was the genesis of how to fail, the podcast that I launched. And from that podcast, my life transformed. So I'm not saying everyone needs to go and launch a podcast or become a fully qualified life coach. But I am saying that there will be some sort of meaning

within the dirt and the confusion and the loss and the heartbreak, just have faith that at some point you will find some glimmer of meaning I think it's this thing of what if this was the way it was meant to be

or long as such? Eckhart Toll says that and it really blew my mind what if you had decided for this to happen to you how might that change your perception but this is why it was so strange like you can't take the life coach

out of me because that morning I was like what if this was and you know what it was it was the fact that I saw that DM imagine that was I have 500,000 followers. That was the day I announced my engagement. Imagine my DMs that day. And yet I saw

her DM. And not only that, her DM was gift delivered to me in my primary section of my DMs where my friends and family came in because I'd replied to her in 2021 because she thanked me for giving her confidence to date because she was insecure about how inexperienced she was. And I had replied saying, thank you so much. And she said, I've bought all your books for all of my friends and family and like you've changed my life and now i'm going to date your boyfriend well she didn't she didn't know to be fair but like but that that's why it came into my primary section and so the moment that like obviously it took a while but like actually it only took to the next morning that I just went I feel like I've been protected here I think what we're saying here is that whatever

your situation if you are currently experiencing heartbreak or rejection It's a really good idea to take a look at the evidence, a look at the evidence of how someone acted, a look at the evidence of what you know about them and what you know about yourself, and to objectively take some truth from that that enables you to see yourself as separate from what has happened to you. I'm very aware that we're speaking as three women who experienced big breakups before they had children. And I wonder if someone's listening to this and they're going through a divorce or a long-term relationship breakup where they do have children involved. I wonder how that might change one's feelings. Do you think you feel that sense of

fury and upset on behalf of your children too, Mel? Well, I haven't been through that personally, but certainly I can imagine if I was going through a breakup as a mother, wow, all I can think about is the image of the lioness, and that's how I'm feeling right now with the idea of this, if I was to think about previous breakups that I went through and imagining doing that now with Maddie in my life, I can't imagine being rational. So all this talk that we're having here about, you know, looking at that breakup in a rational way, identifying the evidence points being really rational and logical, I think that would be almost important. possible now that I'm a parent. So for parents out there who are listening to this, I think

that message about some self-compassion becomes even stronger to give yourself that grace that if you want to, you know, scream into your pillow every morning that that's okay because that the rage and the pain and all of that is going to be multiplied by probably a million when you're a parent because you're not just protecting yourself but your little ones as well. And I think co-parenting must be incredibly hard to navigate in the aftermath of some difficult breakup. I mean, every breakup is difficult in its own way. And in my experience, the co-parenting that I have seen done most effectively is one where the two people involved have been able to put decide their personal differences for the sake of the children and to always center their

children in however they approach major life stages or holidays. And sometimes that has come as a result of professional help. And sometimes it's come because they've left it a period of time before they've returned to the conversations where they can set aside that initial feeling of anger and they are able to centre something more important than either of them. but I'm not doubting for a second how unbelievably difficult that is. Yeah. And I think it takes an incredible level of maturity as, you know, those two co-parents, if you're looking at that example, to rise above their own pain and literally just focus on the children. Yeah. I think that would be incredibly difficult for people.

And that's where, you know, I think as you rightly point out, professional intervention, if you have access to it, is so smart. Because we can't navigate this. stuff on our own. This has been such an extraordinary conversation. Thank you both. Thank you particularly, Michelle, for your honesty and your strength. It's been a revelation. You caught me in a war moment.

It was just amazing. And I want to give you the pleasure of giving our listeners this week's exercise. What would you like them to do? So I do think that formative exercise in my dating life from the very beginning, like I'm talking since I was 21 years old is that I wrote 100 reasons why someone would date me. And the idea behind it is that you should always know what you bring to the table. And that means when someone rattles that boat, whether it's you not getting matches on a dating app or the breakup I just went through or infidelity, you still know what you brought to the table. And it also means

someone else can't convince you that you deserve less. How long did it take you to write the first 100 reasons? About four hours. Oh my gosh. In one sitting. I wouldn't let myself get up. That's the rule. So So this actually, this coaching exercise actually comes from my life coach, Michelle Zelli. And she said there were two waves. And you hit like a point at about like 40, 50, where you run out of reasons. And you sit there until the second wave comes. And if you get up, you're telling yourself you're not worth that time. So I sat there and I sat there and I stared at the piece of paper and it took four hours.

But I was like, I deserve these four hours. And it's the best thing I've ever done. A great exercise. Just make sure you don't have anywhere to get to just in case it takes you long. longer than you think. Yes. Thank you so much, Michelle Elman. You've been a fantastic guest on How to Date.

And next week, Mel, can you believe it? It's our last episode. Oh my gosh. I'm not ready to leave you. I'm not ready to leave you either. I'm experiencing heartbreak at the thought of it. Me too. I'm feeling a bit triggered.

I know. We're going to get through it together. We are. And we are going to talk about the most important relationship you'll ever have, which, spoiler alert, it is the one that you have with yourself. We will see you next week. Thank you so much for joining us on How to Date. Goodbye from me and goodbye from me. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrison's. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionise dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that

than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments, things like I will communicate clearly and with climate. I will not ghost or breadcrumb. I will always ask consent. And you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.com.uk. That's the podclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S dot co.uk. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might want to listen to and who knows. One of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is the Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment Original Podcast.