How To Date - How to Write a Book | 10. AN INTERVIEW WITH ELIZABETH DAY

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

In this tenth, rather special episode, of the How to Write a Book podclass series, hosts Sara Collins, Sharmaine Lovegrove and Nelle Andrew turn the microphone around to quiz their friend, executive producer and bestselling author Elizabeth Day, on her life’s work and writing journey. Of course, Elizabeth knows more than most about the trials and tribulations of writing a book - having penned nine of them herself, writing her first novel at 29 and since then working in every form - non-fiction, children’s and screenplays. She has come up against all of the questions we ask throughout this series and, like every writer, she’s travelled a long and winding road along the way. Throughout her journey, she’s received gentle help and guidance from people who saw something in her. This is particularly true of Sara, Nelle and Sharmaine, who have all offered Elizabeth wise literary guidance and are exceptionally qualified to do so. Together, Sara, Sharmaine, Nelle and Elizabeth are your on-hand writing community giving you the push you need to get started on that novel, memoir, or piece of non fiction you've always dreamed of writing. We hope you enjoy our tenth episode. Stay tuned next week for our final two-part discussion on…PUBLISHING. You won’t want to miss it. Books discussed in this episode include: •  The Cazalet Chronicles by Elizabeth Jane Howard •  Slipstream, a memoir by Elizabeth Jane Howard •  Paradise City by Elizabeth Day •  Paper, Scissors, Stone by Elizabeth Day •  Magpie by Elizabeth Day We also talk about: Margaret Forster, Sathnam Sanghera, Rose Tremain Executive produced by Elizabeth Day for Daylight Productions and Carly Maile for Sony Music Entertainment. Produced by Imogen Serwotka. Please do get in touch with us, your writing community, with thoughts, feedback and more at: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One and sip and two and sip and three and sip. Oh, hey, I'm just sipping Tim's all-new protein ice latte. Starting at 17 grams per medium latte, Tim's new protein lattes, protein without all the work at participating restaurants in Canada. Hello and welcome back to how to write a book. It's Elizabeth Day here, author, podcaster and executive producer of this 12-week pod class, which takes you by the hand and guides you right through, from developing an idea to getting your final manuscript ready for publication. And how to write a book is also the place to come, if, like me, you're a passionate reader and want to find out more about what happens behind the scenes of the literary world. Every week, you'll get an

exclusive insight into how and why our most celebrated writers wrote the books they did, and what really means to create unforgettable stories. Because we all have a story in us, but how do we get it out there? To help you through the process, I've brought together a crack team, leading agent Nell Andrew, best-selling author Sarah Collins, and powerhouse publisher Charmaine Lovegrove. But this week, things are a little different, because the tables are being turned on me, and I'm the one being interviewed. We start by hearing, why on earth I wanted to make this podcast. First of all, let's hear why you even decided to start this podcast, Elizabeth. Well, there's a number of reasons. It is so repeatedly said that it's almost become a

cliche that everyone has a book in them. And I do believe that to be true in the sense that I think everyone has a fascinating story to tell that only they can tell. Because if you're listening to this, only you have lived your life with your particular set of circumstances and your particular set of experiences. And that makes your voice unique. And yet, as we all know, getting that voice onto the page can be something that feels very overwhelming and very challenging and very difficult. And the bar is set quite high for entry where I know it took me a really long time. It felt like to put pen to paper or finger to keyboard because I didn't feel that my ideas were good enough. I didn't feel they were original enough.

I didn't feel that I was inventive enough. And very often, when we go on writing courses, they can be fantastic, but they can be very, very expensive. And when we opt to look at an online masterclass, we have to set time aside to look at our screens. And I really wanted to do something different where we could make the art of writing even more accessible. So people can listen to this podcast, going about their daily business. and they can listen to it and learn, but also, I hope, be really entertained along the way because the dynamic between the three of you is so wonderful. So that's part of the reason.

And then the second reason was a more political one in a way, because I believe that in this country specifically, we are going through a transitional time where some things haven't changed enough. And into that category, I would put the top of the podcast charts, which is still overwhelmingly dominated by white middle-aged men talking to each other about something. Very occasionally a woman is allowed in, but only if she's paired with a man or preferably married to the man. And I feel that's partly because we have been conditioned to believe our quote-unquote experts or the people who are worthy of ruling us look a certain way

and come from a certain background and have had a certain set of life experiences that for me, make them a homogenous, boring blob. And I want to really attack that notion because actually expertise comes in so many different forms. And I felt really passionate about giving the three of you a platform because I know from my conversations with you that you are some of the most intelligent, insightful, impassioned people in this industry. And I wanted to be able to share that. So that's why I started this podcast. It's ridiculous. How much we like you. Come on, like, be less nice, less good. Just, you know, take it down and not just for the rest of us.

I mean, I'm happy with you being exactly how you are, but I also, but I also, I'm like. Very Mr. Darcy answer, by the way, just so you know. English love. Let's not get wrong to English love. I feel real English love for you, Elizabeth. That's without question. I absolutely don't. I feel that international love.

Okay. That intersectional love for you. Elizabeth. And I think what you're saying about this status quo is really important and that there are many different stories to be told and many different people to tell those stories and that it really is our job to ensure that that's happening. And as an intersectional feminist, I know that you clearly believe this and this is a really great way of showing your inclusion and allyship and also just your intersectional feminism. So wrap wrap. First of all, Charmaine taught my husband what intersectional feminism was, and now he proudly labels himself an intersectional feminist. So that's number one. Yes, he does. Yes, it does. Number two, I hope that you all know that I approached each of you because you were my number one choices and experts in this field. And the fact that you haven't had this platform before now, this particular kind of platform, staggers me. But I'm thrilled

because I get to go in there and give it. And that's really important to me. So enjoyed it. Can I just say thank you? This platform has really electrified me. And I think Nell and Charmaine would say the same, that the conversations we're having, I go away from them every time we chat, thinking more deeply about story and feeling more inspired to create story. And I really hope that that's what we're going to be doing for listeners. Well, thank you all for trusting me. Honestly, it means the world to me. And I can speak as a devoted listener to ask my book, let alone being an exact producer, it's really helped me as well. I mean, things that I feel like I've never thought about, but I must have done subconsciously somewhere along the way.

But like the episode on Dialogue, I was sitting here listening and making notes and thinking, I don't know what I would have said about dialogue. And yet the three of you had such amazing insights that have really helped me. So I can't wait to get deeper into the art of writing with all three of you, because all three of you have had such a part to play. in my life as an author. As your agent, it's remarkable to me to be sitting,

having this kind of conversation with you right now because when we first met, it was so completely different. If I could show you who you are now, to who you were then, I think you would have like slapped my face out of shock. You've just been like that.

It's not possible. And yet you have achieved every single thing I ever wanted for you and you just keep going and going. But it is so much. remarkably different first when we first met. Do you remember? Can we have that story? Can we get the meet cute, please? I was at a real crossroads in my life, although I didn't realize it then. And I think I was in my early 30s and I'd had a previous agent who had approached me because back then I was a staff feature writer for

the observer and she'd approached me having read some of my staff and wanted me to write nonfiction. I said, actually I want to write fiction. And she had helped me with my first couple of novels. And then she moved to Mumbai. And at that stage, I was in such a people-pleasing phase in my life that I was like, that's totally fine. Of course, that's totally fine. You can move to a different continent. It'll be completely fine. And I was trying to kid myself that it was okay. And then actually my editor at the time said, you know what? It would be really helpful for your publisher to have an agent who was more present. And I started thinking about that. And a very good friend of mine had just done the Faber Academy writing course.

Yes, yeah. And she was like, oh, why don't you meet Nell? And at that stage, I was halfway through a two-book deal. So most agents didn't want to touch me with the barge pole because they wouldn't have made money from my next book because it had been contracted by another agent. And Nell immediately agreed to meet me. So that was sign number one that this was a very different person. I had seen you interview Brine Gordon, who is my author, about a few months before.

And I turned around to the primary publicist who said, who the first? fuck is that woman. She said, oh, that's Elizabeth. I said, uh, who, no, like, what is going, like, what, she's like, no, she's got an agent and I went, ah, shit, okay. So I went, because I don't coach. I went, oh, okay, fine. So the attraction was already there, mate. Like, I was already, you were so, you had her eye on you. My, yeah, I've been creeping in the shad shivery. Long before you've been creeping in mind. So just so you know. I already know that Nell's special. So I make effort with my outfit. Okay. It's taken me until my mid-40s to understand that being an author doesn't come with a dress code, but for a while, I was trying to be. Oh, please, of course it comes

with a dress code. We need to do, we need to do an episode about this, Sarah. Like, how the fuck do you dress at a literary festival? We've thought to come across as like, in charge of your craft, but also low-key, but also powerful. Also, like, you're going to be sitting on a lot of school of things. Like, no low-key, just dress like you want to cover a vogue, basically. I now agree with Jim Amanda, but at that stage, I was trying to go, who's that Charlotte Rampling? Like, I was basically trying to look like the Charlotte Rambling version. If she would play an author of them. But I didn't really have a budget at that stage where I could buy nice clothes. So I was wearing, I think it was like an oversized white shirt and jeans. And then I had invested

wrongly in a pair of silver brogues bought in the sale at Russell and Bromley. And it was such a knock down price that I bought them without thinking if I actually like them or if they fitted me and they didn't. They were too small. And I had walked to meet Nell and by the time I got to the offices where she then worked, I could barely, barely limp into office. My feet was so painful. I've got very blister prone feet anyway. And I walked in and I was like, oh my God, I feel like I'm sweating and I'm in pain, but I don't have any other shoes to change into. I hope this meeting goes okay. And Nell immediately put me at my ease, sat me down on a really comfortable sofa. for got me a cup of tea. We didn't discuss the shoes at all. But what I remember from that

meeting is that at the end of it, she was so interested in me and so passionate about where she saw my career going. And at the end, I was like, so are you interested at all in representing me? She said, Elizabeth, what are you talking about? I wouldn't have taken this meeting if I weren't interested. Yes, I'm interested. And that was the beginning of not only a beautiful professional partnership, but a really meaningful friendship to me. And years later, I don't discovered that Nell had, in fact, noticed the shoes, hadn't you, Nell? Because they were a metaphor for where I was in my life, which was sort of stunted professionally and personally. It's interesting because my most vivid memory of that was the way that you're like, oh,

I was like, how can you not see what I see? How can this be a question? How can you not? Because it's Elizabeth. And he doesn't always see her brilliant. I was like, how can you not see this? It's like, I was like, oh my God, I was thinking, is she going to sign with me? And I, and my most vivid memory was you were, this was quite a bit of a large couch. And Elizabeth took up as little space as possible on that couch. Like, she was as contained as she could possibly be. And I just remember wanting to like unfur you and to just get you to take up more space. Like, I want to hear from you. I want to know about you. I want to see you. And I mean, you have put it into that space and made it your own, thank God. But I think it was right from the beginning, you know, every agent is different.

Every author's expectation is different. I want to work with people who I'm deeply impressed by. I want to work with people who are incredibly talented. I recognize very much that I am talent adjacent as an agent and that I am looking at for someone who is going to save my life or save my evening. I don't mind which. But it's that moment of like looking at someone saying I can see everything that you can be and I want to be the footnote that helps to get you there. I want to be the person who looks down the train platform and sees people with your book and they'll never know that I was part of it. But the fact that I'm a little bit of part of it is enough for me. And that was, to know that I've been a part of you and your journey,

it's been just one of the most satisfying things of my career. So I feel incredibly invested in the fact that you are now be helping me be part of this particular journey. But the question, I guess, is, stop making me cry. Yeah, what's the question? I'm crying now as well. When Charmaine starts crying, then we know we're on to something. Okay, if we can crack, Charmaine, we're getting into it. But, I agree all the time. That's what I go for in a relationship. What do you, what would you say to yourself back then?

What would you say to any listener right now who's like, what should I look for in an agent-author relationship? Like, what would you advise them to do? Sign up with Nell Andrew. Given that she's got a really big quiet list, she's not, I'm probably not taking on anyone at the moment. But I think to be serious for a moment, first of all, thank you for saying something so beautiful.

I think you've nailed it. It's someone who can look into your future and see something that you can't yet, who believes in you even when you don't believe in yourself, who can carry that load for you. And I didn't realize that's what I was desperately in need of. And you did. And I think there's something really beautifully symbiotic about that

that I met you exactly when I did. And if I could say something to myself now, it would be, if you don't feel like you have faith in who you are or your own writing or whatever you're creating, then find someone who does because they can keep that flame alive for you while you catch up

and they can have your corner for you. And I think that's something that I've been so blessed with, with our relationship now. and I describe you as a lioness because I feel like you always fight our corner as authors and you always place us front and centre and leaving aside the fact that you're a fantastic negotiator of contracts which obviously is like a huge part of it because we need to earn a living in order to carry on writing but I just feel that you are really protective and I really need that because when you are writing, it's something that is so vulnerable. If you're doing it

well, then you're exposing your soul on every page. And so you need to have someone who protects that on your behalf and who guards it close and who can understand what it needs to bring it to the audience that it has always deserved. And I think those are all the things that I look for. And if there's someone listening to this, who doesn't have an agent, which is the vast majority of us, or who maybe doesn't feel they have that relationship with an agent or with the people who are creatively in their corner, I just want to sit here and say that there is hope, like things can change. You can live many different lifetimes, professionally and personally. And it's probably no coincidence that I met you now at a point when my first marriage was imploding. And actually, I got divorced. And I severed lots of relationships around that time in my life. And I built new relationships and you are one of the most important ones. And I'm so grateful that I was given that opportunity in that second chance. So I just want, if anyone's listening, feeling like they've run out of time or they've lost their chances, I promise you you haven't, it's never too late. And just keep trying until you find

the person who will fight your corner like a lioness or lion. Oh, for God's sake. That's just. So it was the lioness who got us together, Elizabeth. I don't know if you remember. Nell arranged this play date for us, and I was incredibly nervous. It was like going on an actual date. Like, first of all, she's going to be dressed like a supermodel. She is incredibly, incredibly brilliant. But also there's a kind of sensibility about you that I think is just rare in people.

And you can tell from screen and listening and page what that sensibility is. So I just thought this is an important woman and a good. woman and I want to make a good first impression. So I was incredibly nervous. And the thing that I think that sets you apart is you are immediately just yourself and real and authentic and open and vulnerable, which I think is also rare in one so ostensibly perfect. And so my question is, because it is about this image of perfection, I think people who are listening will look at people like you and think, you know, the Elizabeth Day career came fully formed and you never have moments of self-doubt. And the books are all just sort of rolling off your typewriter or

keyboard in the way we imagine them to. So can you tell us about moments of failure in your writing and in particular those sort of turning point style moments of failure that help to sort of bring you to where you are now? Happily. And just to say right back at you, Sarah, your good opinion of me was so incredibly important before I met you that I was equally nervous. Yes, I can happily talk about feelings of failure and self-doubt. Really, the whole premise of my other podcast, How to Fail, is that idea that when we look at someone on social media or some best-selling author is interviewed in a Sunday newspaper, we tend to focus historically on those moments of success, the thing that they want to promote, on everything that has been seemingly a motorway from

A to B to the eventual summit of their career. And actually, as you will all know only too well, sometimes the most important parts of a career are the byroads, the places you get lost in, the paths that feel that they're going nowhere. And I've certainly had plenty of those. and actually I am very grateful now for the fact that I know what it is like to write things that no one cares about. So I had a really long time writing both for newspapers and writing books before I launched How to Fail. And the journalism I wrote, you know, some of it I was really proud of, but again, it's very hard to escape that feeling that what you're writing is so transient and people never remember the name of the person who wrote it.

They might remember the piece, but then it sort of disappears because the news cycle is so relentless and transient. And then when I wrote my first couple of novels, you know, the first novel, I've won a Betty Trask Award, that's true, that was for that first novel, which is an award for debut novelists under the age of 35, the only award I've ever won for any of my books. Yet.

But it didn't sell massively. I did a lot of sort of tiny events that were very sparsely attended. I remember for my second novel, I schlepped to York for a festival, and there were four people on the panel, and the only connection between them was that they'd written books with home in the title, and there were four people in the audience. So there was a sort of one-to-one ratio of panel members and audience members. And I sold one book. This is before Nell was my agent, I hasten to add. And so I know what it is to write things and then feel like you are launching them, like a massive brick

and throwing them into the middle of a huge lake of silence. I know what that feels like. Oh my God, what a gorgeous sentence. I have to say that I've stolen that sentence from a letter written to me by Elizabeth Jane Howard, who is one of my favourite novelists of all time.

Wait, she wrote you a letter. She did. Okay, so now she's back to pinnick here. I love this. I love this. She's talking about her struggles, but they're just slipping in. Well, but this is actually, a fascinating thing in the context of this conversation, because at the time that I wrote my first

novel, Elizabeth Jane Howard was not a fashionable author. She hadn't undergone the reappraisal that I'm so happy she went through towards the end of her life. But I loved her. I loved the Casillac Chronicles, and I loved her memoir, and I still think it's one of the best memoirs ever written. So I wrote my first novel when I was like 29, and it came out when I was 31, 32. So we're talking about 13, 14 years ago now. And at the time, the publisher said, oh, who would you like to send a copy of this to? We would like to get blurbs, especially for first-time novelists. And the two authors I mentioned were Elizabeth Jane Howard and Margaret Foster, again,

a criminally underrated author of both fiction and nonfiction. And because I think they were older and maybe because they weren't that fashionable at the time, they both wrote back to me and they both gave a blurb and Elizabeth Jane Howard she wrote a lovely blurb and I wrote to thank her and in response she wrote back to me

and she used this metaphor about throwing her work into a Great Lake of Silence and how much my letter had meant to her and that for me it says so much because so often as authors we feel like failures even if we're lucky enough to have had a bestseller even if we're lucky enough to have won the Booker Prize

all of that success is quite transient and you're only ever as good as your last piece of work and you are not in control of how it's received all you're in control of is what you put into the creation of it and that's why that has to be enough that's why the craft and the joy that you take in the craft and sometimes the torture of it but the feeling that you're getting somewhere that you're uncovering some essential truth about what it is to be human, to be lofty and pretentious about it, that's what keeps me going. And I would say, I mostly consist of self-doubt and feelings of failure. But I think that that's part of my motivation and drive. So I've made friends with it now. And I'm also so lucky that a podcast I did called How to Fail, which was interrogating this notion of what failure

really is and can we learn from it, has ironically become one of the most successful things I've ever done. brought my written work to a whole new audience. But it happens a lot that I will get listeners saying, oh, I didn't know you wrote books before How to Fail. And I have to say, I actually wrote four novels before How to Fail came about. And I kept going. Like, even though those novels, a lot of the time, it didn't feel like they were doing what my peers were doing with their books. I kept going because I loved it so much. And then I found Nell who believed in me. But it wasn't luck that made those six. It was the work. You put the work in. Thank you for saying that. It was hard, hard work. Yeah, that's

another thing that I would definitely say is that I have been a tutor on one of those writing courses that we were speaking about at the very beginning of this episode. And one of the things I realized is that many people have good ideas and they probably at some level do have the capacity to write a book. But the thing that separates a writer from someone who will keep that story inside them is the work. So actually it's like 95% trudge. It's 95% craft. It's like putting brick upon brick upon brick rather than thinking I've got this wonderful cathedral. Actually, you have to start by building the wall and just showing up and turning up and being consistent with that. Even if you have those moments of self-doubt and you think this is the worst piece of

crap that's ever been written, which by the way, I don't know about you, sorry, but happens to me every single time I write anything. Yes. But you've got to push on through. And it goes back to that authorial arrogance that Nell was talking about in the first episode. Yeah. It's like there's something that keeps pushing us through.

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This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine, the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar rally. The ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. You know what? I want to know about Charmaine and Elizabeth's meet you. Yeah.

This is going to be a good one, I think. I love this story as well. It's a good story. And I'd actually read Elizabeth's three novels before I'd met her. and I really, really loved her writing. And I'd read a lot of your journalism as well and was really impressed by how you were able to take on kind of giants of politics, such as Theresa May, but also getting those, like, celebrity crushes as well.

And so, yeah, I've been following your work for quite a long time. I really, really, really have to say that Paradise City is one of my favourite novels about London. and as a Londoner, it's very hard for people to write about the city in a way that I understand and completely on board with. And I just think Paradise City is a great example of a brilliant London novel. So there's that. And then so you and I were both invited to Elle magazine, we're having a dinner in Mayfair. And I wasn't really sure why I was invited.

but like, I just was like, sure, I'll eat a meal in Mayfair with some other people. And why not? And I can't even, I hadn't actually started my job as a publisher at this point. I think I was still a scout. Yes. So I also didn't know why I was invited, but I was friends with Lottie Jeffs, who was deputy editor at L at the time. And it was called a taste maker's dinner, which is quite a cringes.

worthy thing to admit. But there we go. That's what it was called. And as part of the dinner, after we finished eating, we went around the table when we spoke about kind of cultural moments, I think. And so one of the topics on the table for discussion was one of the greatest albums of all time, Beyonce's Lemonade, which had just been released. True. Epoch-defining album in so many ways, but that I digress. Anyway, there was one, again, white man around this table. And he launched into Beyonce saying that she wasn't creative enough and she didn't write enough of her own songs to be categorized as someone worthy of our attention.

At which point, like, I was shocked into outrage silence. And I looked across at this extraordinary woman who I obviously clocked from the moment I walked in. I was like, I want to be friends with her. Anyway, I looked across at who I later came to realize was Charmaine Lovegrove. and I saw Charmaine just sort of tilting her head in quietly assessing manner. You know where she's winding up, she's getting ready.

Okay, and then I can't do justice to what you said then, but in a very calm, incredibly clever way, you just completely deconstructed and dismantled his spurious argument, and it was so elegantly done that there was just no comeback from it. It was devastating. It was sort of devastation delivered with compassion. I'd never seen anything like it. I was like, well, now I'm obsessed with her.

And so as soon as we'd finished the discussion, I went round to her side of the table. And I was like, I just want to be friends with you. And sat down next to her. And then to discover that this amazing woman had read my three novels that no one really at that stage other than Nell and my parents had read. And not even them, to be honest.

I know my mother's read all of them. And her favourite is Paradise City. But then I was like, God, this is just incredible. And we started chatting and had so much talk about and we have never stopped talking since. It's true. We haven't stopped talking. And it's one of my favorite things in the world is that you are one of my friends. And now we get to work together. And that's amazing. So from meeting you, I then became a publisher. And so I'm really interested in what the publishing process means to you. You've been at different houses as well. And you've had different editors. So what's key for our listeners to think about when thinking about choosing a publisher, choosing an editor and choosing a house? Such a good and such a big question.

And you're right that I've had different publishing houses. And that goes back to what I was saying before about it not being too late to change. My first three books were published by one publisher and then my editor left and I went with her. And that was a really good decision, but quite a scary one. and I had to pay back my advance because I was in between books, but it just didn't feel that it had been the right fit for me. And so I think at some point you have to be brave enough to listen to your gut feeling. I think the most important thing is to feel that someone understands what you're trying to do with your work.

And sometimes you won't even understand it yourself, but an editor will see something in it and be able to explain it to you in a way that makes you feel so aligned with them. And that's what happened to me with my first editor, Helen Garnas Williams. This, again, is pre-Nell. So talking about failure, my first book, Cissus Paper Stone,

I wrote the whole thing before it was sent out to anyone. And my then-agent sent it out to five key publishers that she felt would really get it. Every single one of them rejected it. And my then-agent would just forward me the rejection emails. So I would read them.

I remember them still. I remember them still. And it was gutting. And it definitely helped my resilience. But it was quite a lot to handle at that stage. And I thought, well, it's been rejected. So what do we do next? And at that point, Helen got in touch and said, oh, I've heard that this manuscript is doing the rounds. And it sounds like something I'd be interested in. And she called it in. And I'm forever grateful that she did that because she just read the book and got it and felt like she completely got me. So that's the first thing I would say is that the relationship you have with your editor is such an incredibly precious one because very often they are your first or second reader and you need to be able to trust them with your soul. You need to be able to trust them that the way they express what they need from you is aligned with how you take feedback best. And Helen was always very good at being constructively critical in an extremely complimentary way. So she would always say what she loved about something. And she would always give sort of extensive notes about what

she thought didn't work. And we worked very well together because of that. So it's sort of working out in your own head how you like to receive feedback and whether you think someone that you're going to work very intimately with gets that. And then the older, I've got, and the more established I've got, I went from being extremely grateful to be published, which is an appropriate response. But it became slightly inappropriate when I didn't stand up for the integrity of my own work. And so, for instance, a key thing that often comes up is covers. Covers can be so important and can be so terrible. Because unless your publisher has an incredible design department, which I'm lucky enough my publisher now does have. And unless those people

really engage with the book and read it and understand what it's about, they can run the risk of pigeonholing you. And so my first couple of covers were sort of soft focus photographs of the kind that female authors from time immemorial have had. And I should have stood up for myself and said, actually, that doesn't feel right to me. Or I should have been able to say to my agent, can you stand up on my behalf? And that's something that I've learned along the way that you standing up for your work is not you being rude. It's not you being ungrateful. It's actually you claiming your own power. And if you're not going to believe in the power of your work, then other people are going to find it harder to believe in it without that.

I think you're interesting and so important to note that the kind of showing, it's, you know, so what you've described earlier is sort of now showing up and being, being there. And then your editors also doing that. But I think that, you know, and then and then the design team as well and your publishing team, but really that showing up for yourself and that champion, that self-champoning is really, really important. I think where sometimes authors, where they sort of, sometimes you see authors that kind of hand over their book to their publishers and sort of like, I did the work and now it's your turn rather than being on that journey. And I just think that's such a huge misstep because of course you can have different personality and character types as as individuals

and as writers. But I'm always fascinated by the fact that you did send, you did write it, first of all, and then you did send it to an agent. And then the agent did get you a book deal. So why is this the moment that you're going to kind of back out of that ambition, you know? Exactly. That's so true and so fascinating. Because obviously, there is a lot of chatter at the moment about writers' mental health, as there should be. And the idea that a lot of writers are introverted characters, and therefore when they're called upon to promote their work, which is a necessary part of the publishing process increasingly,

that can create a sort of internal tension for them. But I think that there are ways of showing up for your work that don't necessarily include constantly being on social media or constantly being in front of a crowd. And actually, what dialogue do brilliantly and what my publisher now do brilliantly, I'm with Fourth Estate, and I thank my lucky stars every single day

that I'm at Fourth Estate. I have the most incredible relationship there. What they do at their best is they collaborate. So it's a collaborative effort. And I'm not someone who thinks that my job as a writer stops as soon as I've handed in the manuscript and signed off the cover design. Actually, a really meaningful part for me is connecting that work with an audience.

It's very meaningful to me to be a bestseller because it means that I've connected with more people and that's beautiful. Connection is what makes me high. I live my mantra by EM Forster's Only Connect. I have it tattooed on my wrist. It's such a fundamental part of it. And so I moved with Helen. She went to fourth estate.

I encountered a team of people who passionately believed in books, really, and I'm very lucky there, which I know it's a singular experience. It's not always the case. I know it is at dialogue. But it's like every person in every department is at the top of their game. So marketing, PR, my now editor, Michelle Kane just completely gets me. And it's been really interesting because I had to make a decision about staying at Fourth Estate when my editor who had edited all of my books up till that point was leaving. And that, as Nell knows too well, was so stressful for me. It was so emotional and I didn't know what the right thing was. And Nell gave me this amazing piece of advice, which is that a certain point in your

career, you have to go with the publisher, with the whole offer, rather than a single individual, like an editor. However much you love an editor, they might get another job and they might move on. And actually, if you feel supported by a whole team of people and they believe in you, that's extremely important for the collaborative nature of what publishing at its best should be. And I do feel lucky because I know what it's like not to feel like a cherished author and how difficult it is to sort of create that space for yourself. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost?

Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. But a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan, sorry, nope. But a box fan, happily yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product available. May vary by Regency app for details. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure.

This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Do you think you're more exposed writing novels than writing non-fiction or do you think it's the other way around? Good question. Amazing question. It's fascinating. And I think I feel more exposed when I'm writing fiction. But the way that books are received, I feel more exposed when nonfiction is published. Oh, wow. Which is actually a thought that I've only just had and been able to express. So thank you for asking a question. Very interesting thought. Because it's also about how work is received. And There is a sense that if you're writing nonfiction and you're drawing from your own life,

that the way people read it is, oh, it's sort of you're telling everything. And actually, I'm not, as you all know, because you're all great friends of mine, in my nonfiction books, I share a lot, I don't share everything. There are certain things that are forever ring-fenced that I don't talk about or that I talk about very, very carefully. But if I've made the commitment to talk about something on the page, I make the commitment to show up 100% honest. So having made the commitment to write about fertility, I wanted to put everything in. Satnam Sangira says this. People often make an assumption that if you choose to write about difficult things, people assume that you overshare and that you share everything. And that's not the case. Because the way that fiction is received is you're inventing these characters. You can sort of hide behind that figly. a little, and explore really uncomfortable emotional truths through a fictional prism. And I definitely think that I have shown dark parts of myself and dark parts of my history that I can't

necessarily speak openly about in nonviction in my novels. So the act of writing a novel definitely sometimes I feel really vulnerable, but I think that that's where the best creativity for me comes from. And actually the other thing that I want to say, which isn't completely related, but it's about the importance of the void in writing and in creativity generally, we should not be afraid to not be doing anything. And that's something that's taken me a really long time to understand that and to be at peace with it, because we do live in a society that prizes productivity over almost anything else. And actually, in order to create, we have to be able to have to be still and quiet and observe life and be in it. And where else can new things be

created if not in a space? So it's like you need to leave that space and that fertile void for yourself. Oh my God. Amen. What's your void generating now? Are you working on something? Yes. Your agent is quite interested in this. Please tell me you're writing another novel because I actually don't know the answer to this. I know. Please tell me you all. I am writing. I am writing. another novel, Sarah. And I think... Yes, that is such good news. I'm in that delightful phase

where you've just started a new book and anything can happen. So you're not yet hemmed in by your own lack of full thought about what's going to happen. I haven't driven myself into the plot cul-de-sac. Yet. I mean, it's bound to happen.

And Nell has been an amazing encouragement for me to think of plot more, to think of plot as an extra character rather than how I... That's interesting. Yeah, I used to feel like plot was a bit like a revision timetable. Like, what's the point of putting all this effort into how I'm going to revise? I might as well get on and do it.

And actually, treating plot in a bit more of a nuanced way has been really helpful. So I have actually mapped it out. I haven't put it all down on post-stits, but it's in my head. And I'm in a good phase with it right now. But I'm only sort of 18,000 words in, just to be very specific. I can't make it for one eight. I check my word count every day. That is so interesting. You're a sort of instinctive pancer because in our plot episode I said that the trick is to plan and then forget the plan.

Rose Tremaine says research has to be subsumed and I think the plan has to be subsumed as well. And then whatever is left sort of bubbling away at your subconscious, that's what should make its way back into the text. Great note. Completely agree. Let's talk about ritual because I love talking to other writers about the ritual. So how do you push through? Do you have have little superstitions and tricks and treats that you use to keep yourself in the chair laying the bricks on one on top of the other. I do. And I also love talking about rituals. And sometimes authors, mainly male authors, are like, oh, so boring being asked about routine. I was like, is it there? We've already established, though, that the white men talking to each

other is just not going to fly here. Forget it. Yeah. So I worked out quite early on. I think because of my background in print journalism, you know, in print journalism, you cannot miss a deadline or there'll be a blank sheet of paper in the Sunday Telegraph or the observer or whoever you're working for. And that gets you very used to the idea that you have to write. You have to put a word on the page and it doesn't matter if it's not the most beautiful word. You need to communicate something and there's an urgency to it. And I think I took that mindset into writing books. So the deal I have with myself, My approach, especially when I first started out, I was writing alongside a full-time job,

and I'm sure many listeners will relate to that, because we can't be authors in garrets eking out existences, or we can't all have sort of independent incomes and lovely studies, sort of papered in far and ball colours. We have to work. So I was paying the rent by being a full-time journalist, and I started writing my first novel in my lunch break in Costa Coffee on York Way at the weekends. And I had a deal with myself that every time I sat down to my laptop, I would write a thousand words. And I had to suspend my own internal critic while I wrote those thousand words. So I had to suspend the judgment. And I had to say to myself, I just need to get words on a page, because the great thing about a book, as opposed to a newspaper, is that you can go

back and edit. When you read through it the next time, actually that's part of the writing process. So I would edit as I went. But that was the deal that I made with myself and I still stick to it. So a thousand words is my aim and my metric. And I had to do that because I didn't have these long, empty days where I had the privilege of sitting down and just writing for hours. I had to ensure that I made the most of the time available. And so that's the only thing that I do. The other thing, which I know shocks you, Saur, is that I write in cafes. Because writing, as you all know, is such a solitary activity sometimes. I actually like the background murmur of other people.

Having said that, that really changed during lockdown. I wrote a novel called Magpie during lockdown, and we're lucky enough to have a spare room. And because I couldn't go to any of my beloved cafes, I would go into that spare room every evening from five to seven. and I would play coffee shop sounds on YouTube. And it really helped me to the extent that I really found my flow with that novel. And when cafes started opening up again, I went and I found that they were too noisy. And so I was sitting in a cafe listening to those YouTube coffee shop sounds. You had your headphones on.

I had my headphones on listening to coffee shops sounds in a coffee shop. So it was quite unhinged. But whatever works for you, and I do think that white noise can sometimes really focus your attention. Can I just say last time I wrote in a cafe, the man next to me spent half an hour trying to get me to eat the leftover half of his sandwich. And so I had to keep on pausing my writing to say, no, thank you. I don't want the rest of your sandwich, which is why I don't do it. I mean, that's never happened to me and now I'm kind of offended. I think I've got a resting bitch face. I think that's why no one approaches me. What was the sandwich? What was the filling?

Oh, I can't remember, but something I really, really definitely did not want, whatever it was. Unfortunately, I think we're coming towards the end of this episode. I don't like it either, but we are there. I have loved it. I think it's time. And actually, Elizabeth, since you are our, you know, our guest for this week, shall we hand over to your Dulcette? Yes, guru. Shall we hand over to your dulcet tones?

Do you want to deliver the listener exercise? It's been the best conversation. I've got so many questions for all of you. We'll have to do a whole bonus episode. So our listener exercise this week pertains to the fact I'm going to take you back to when I was writing my first novel on my lunch break from the Observer in Costa Coffee on York Way, very unglamorous. And I just had a deal with myself. I had to sit down and write a thousand words because even if they were terrible words, I knew that the next time I sat down at Costa Coffee, I could go back and reread what I'd written and make edits. And that's what I want you to do.

do this week. I want you to go through everything that you've written so far as a result of how to write a book, all of the exercises that now Sarah and Charmaine have given you. I want you to go through them and to read them with a critical but not overly judgmental eye and make the edits that you think are necessary to make that piece of prose sing, to make it reveal the essence of its truth. And remember what Sarah said in one of the early episodes about how much you take out, Sarah, you take out like 20%. Oh, 25%. 25%. So don't be afraid of cutting or killing your darlings. Edit, reread until you're happy that you've polished up your piece of craft. And Sarah, Charmaine and Nell, it has been a joy to be with all three of you. Thank you. Thank you. Can I just say,

petition to put a blue plaque at the cost of coffee on York way. And on that note, next episode, we're going to be talking all about publishing the good and the bad, and I think it's going to be really, really instrumental. I'm hoping you guys are going to tell me how to survive it because I still haven't figured that out. Thank you so much for listening, and please do remember to like and subscribe and share a link with everyone you know. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.