How To Date - How to Write a Book | 11. PUBLISHING (Part 1)

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

In these final two episodes of How to Write a Book, Elizabeth Day’s new podclass series, hosts Sara Collins, Sharmaine Lovegrove and Nelle Andrew discuss navigating the world of publishing! Publishing is a daunting experience for a seasoned writer, let alone a debut author. But - don’t worry - we’ve got you covered. From what our literary agent, author and publishing expert wish they knew about the publishing process before they started, to managing expectations, and what makes it all worthwhile in the end. We hope you find this discussion a heartening listen that emboldens you to take the enormously brave step into the world of publishing. Together, Sara, Sharmaine and Nelle are your on-hand writing community giving you the push you need to get started on that novel, memoir, or piece of non fiction you've always dreamed of writing. Next week, stay tuned for Part 2 on PUBLISHING which is…sob!…our finale. Books discussed in this episode include: •  Bird by bird by Annie Lamott We also discuss: Octavia Butler, Cool Runnings Executive produced by Elizabeth Day for Daylight Productions and Carly Maile for Sony Music Entertainment. Produced by Imogen Serwotka. Please do get in touch with us, your writing community, with thoughts, feedback and more at: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days, delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no, but a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan, sorry, nope. But a box fan, happily yes. A day of sunshine? No.

A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app. for details. Hello, and welcome back to how to write a book. It's Elizabeth Day here, author, podcaster, and executive producer of this 12-week pod

class, which takes you by the hand and guides you right through, from developing an idea to getting your final manuscript ready for publication. And how to write a book is also the place to come, if, like me, you're a passionate reader. and want to find out more about what happens behind the scenes of the literary world. Every week, you'll get an exclusive insight into how and why our most celebrated writers wrote the books they did and what it really means to create unforgettable stories. Because we all have a story in us. But how do we get it out there?

To help you through the process, I've brought together a crack team. leading agent, Nell Andrew, best-selling author Sarah Collins, and Powerhouse publisher Charmaine Lovegrove, three amazing women who are also really good friends. So yes, we might be teaching you a new skill set, but you'll also get a seat at our friendship table. We hope very much you'll stay for the conversation and the laughs along the way. Without further ado, let me hand over to Sarah, Nell and Charmaine for another wild ride of a two-part episode on publishing. For this last element of our podclass, we just couldn't help but make it two parts. From four women who know publishing well, trust us, there's just so much to say.

You have now climbed the mountain, you have surveyed the peaks, all kinds of journey metaphors and tropes. And this, I guess, is the episode where it's like, so what's it all for? Is that all there is? Is that all there is? She's singing, girl. Seeing from her supper. What is happening? Our last icebreaker question is we delve into this very meaty topic. What do you wish you knew about publishing when you first started that you know now? That is a question.

I mean, there isn't just a single answer for me because I dreamed about being published. And I am not unusual in this regard. I'm one of millions and millions of writers who were a little tiny bookworms who thought writers were superheroes and books were magic objects, like, you know, actual magic objects, and just thought there could be nothing more mystical and empowering and fulfilling than being part of that world. It would be like, you know, becoming a superhero, really. That's what I thought. And so it was a dream for me. And I think so much of the reality just didn't live up to the dream. You know, there could be hundreds of answers to this question. But the one, that I'm going to fix on for now is that I wish I had realized, not just in theory, but in my gut, that it is a business. So I used to be a corporate lawyer. Corporate lawyers are sharks. I mean, I swam with sharks for 17 years professionally. I thought I had come across all the shit one has to deal with in order to make a living and it couldn't possibly get worse. And in some ways publishing is worse. In some ways it is, I know this sounds like a downer, but I also do think

it's important to have your eyes open. In some ways, it is quite cutthroat. For example, I know authors who didn't make their expected sales and got dropped by their imprints, but no one actually even told them, you know, no one even gave them an email saying, we don't want your second book. It was just then when they started kind of inquiring. You know, there is some very bad behavior in this industry. And I think it's important to go into it, realizing that it is both your vocation and the thing that you've dreamed about doing and a job, which means the thing that you must do professionally, but recognize that other people are also doing jobs. And that there is a bottom line and the bottom line is money. And to guard your mental health and sense of self

and why you're doing it in that process, like to hold on to that. that ignited in you which made you want to write, which you might be the only one sheltering through the kind of high winds of this experience to continue your journey metaphor now. You might be the only one who cares. You might be the only one who realizes you're a bit overwhelmed or you've been crying all morning because you didn't make this list or you didn't get on that prize long list or your book isn't a Sunday Times bestseller or it wasn't reviewed by X or people are tagging you in negative reviews. all of the stuff that really only authors will will experience.

You've got to find a way, I think, to continue to tap into the reason why you did it in the first place and to hold on to that and to allow the fulfillment of that dream to be enough. Oh, my God. Wow. Oh, my goodness. I'm so glad I asked this fucking question. You can tell I've thought about it a lot, right? Babes, that was so deep and heartfelt from the well. From the heart.

That was from the well of the cardiac muscle. Charmaine from the flip side what would be your answer to that what do you wish you'd known I wish that I had known how much I'd love it like I really love publishing so much I really love the editorial process the collaboration the manuscripts coming in reading figuring out what you want to publish and working with that author really closely in their agent and just this really highly collaborative process that's also very business-focused, really business-focused. I wish that I knew before how little authors know about the process and about this business side that Sarah's talking about. I find it probably the most challenging side of my job,

like the expectation side, how authors kind of look around and see what other people people are getting, but not really actually knowing, just kind of talking to each other and only hearing what people are willing to share, which is not necessarily the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but a snippet of either what's good or what's bad, but forgetting that there's like two years at least of work that goes in from the time you get a publisher to the fact that book sells really count. And like every book counts, every book that sold counts towards an all author's career and their next advance and what they can do next, that's the most brutal side of it, basically. I'm a founder and organiser of the organisation called the Black

Writers Guild, and what we do is advocate and lobby for the inclusion and equality and equity of black writers in British publishing. And the thing that's really difficult is like the kind of just lack of knowledge that writers from all backgrounds, from all races have. But I've seen how that can just have such an adverse effect on people's confidence, but actually it's just knowledge. My God, these answers are just so, I'm a bit kind of overwhelmed and bowled away by them. What do you think? What would you love to have known before you started?

Honestly, I would love to know that to succeed does not mean there was only one way to be. When I was coming up, I used to joke it was awful. of middle class emmas. Everyone was called Emma and everyone was class. Emma's. Middle class emmers. They were all blonde and they were all kind of, you know, white and middle class. And I felt that I had to be a version of myself to work. It had to be the version that the industry expected me to be when I became an agent. This is what agents do. And when I was looking publishing, this is what publishing does. And I wish that I had known that that was absolutely. an utter horseshit and that what makes you good at what you do is your integrity and your

individual value system and holding and cleaving to that is what you can bring to the table because being an agent is a huge responsibility I feel the responsibility of that so deeply I am managing careers finances opportunities and choices it is not about the great in glory of Nell. No one gives a flying fuck about me. And that's absolutely as it should be. Well, that is just not true. That's as it should be. I chose to not be in the spotlight. And the weight of that, I think, requires me to have this core sense of value within myself. And that actually, it is not about putting on a coat of someone else's identity. It is about embracing my background, embracing where I have come from, and bringing that to the full, to help me

with my compassion, to help me with my empathy, to help me find the stories. That's kind of saved my life when I was a kid that gave me meaning and gave me significance and help me find a place in this world. You know, there was lots of things that people do that is far more valuable. I always used to say, it's PR, not ER. We're not stitching together tiny baby hearts. Do you know what I mean? Like, no one's going to die because a book is late. But at the same time, I think books have this extraordinary place in the world. And they have the ability to change lives and to change views and to crack open these incredible opportunities within ourselves. Don't be a different version of yourself. As a writer, as a publisher, as an agent, you don't come from

Oxbridge background. Who gives the shit? You might have dyslexia or ADHD. That's not a problem. You're bringing yourself to the table. And that's what needs to be seen. And I wish that I had known that. I wish I hadn't worried so much that my hair wasn't straight about whether or not I knew the right schools about whether or not I should be tough and I should be like a ballbuster. I wish I had just been. You can only be you. You're in this because you love this. There is no that other version of you out there. So just hold to the integrity of yourself. I wish I had known that. Oh, no. Tim's new scrambled egg loaded croissant or is it croissant? No matter how you say it.

Start your day with freshly cracked scrambled eggs loaded on a buttery, flaky croissant. Try it with maple brown butter today at Tim's at participating restaurants in Canada for limited time. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. What incredibly moving responses. I think it just goes to show how much of an emotional process publishing can be for everyone. But how good that is in many respects, because it shows that we really care. Now, we know what Sarah, Nell and Charmaine wish they knew about publishing before going through it. Let's hear why it's not always for everyone. Wait, just before you move on now, just a moment to absorb that truth that you just delivered. But also, I wanted to pick up on that because it was truth and it really resonated with me and I will take it away, something I needed to hear. But you have been in publishing from a couple of perspectives because you're an agent now,

but you also had a novel published, which I read. And it's good, by the way. It's not good. It's a lie. I love you so much. I didn't know this. No. No.

No. No. No. A novel published. Should we give it a shout-up. I think she'll drop me as a client if I give it. a shout-out so I can't. I would never be drop you as the client, but I might drop something on you. You want to read it? How have you felt about it? What did you feel about the experience of being

published? Because you then sort of firmly entrenched yourself as an agent after that. So something about it wasn't. I died, ran away. Wow. Okay, so I was, I always wanted to be a writer. That's what I wanted. I had exactly the same dream as you. I always, always, always wanted to be write it and I got an agent when I was 25 and I got published when I was 26 and I hated being published. I absolutely hated it. Do you know what really helped me be the agent I am today was going through that process. Quering, I can see that. Quering, querying, going on the submission part and querying agents really taught me something because I was like, this is not how I want to treat people. I always reply to submissions, even if it's a no. I always reply to them.

I think it's so fucking disrespectful not to reply to anybody and to just leave them in the ether, wondering if they're ever going to get an email months on end. I get it. We're all busy. Give a shit. It's just courteous to just put someone out of their misery. I find it abominable.

People call in the manuscript and then never bothered to come back to me, which was gutting. Every time you see like an email in the inbox, you're like, oh my God, you know, it's awful. And I had a very, very kind agent. Please don't get me wrong. but it really taught me about how I want to be treated and how I want to communicate

and how I want someone to talk to me. Like when you said that you've had people who've been dropped and no one bothered to send an email, I'm like, where was the agent? Where was the agent? Why aren't you doing this? Why aren't you anticipating? What's happening on the other side?

Like, that is your fucking job. It's not just to take the money and run. And I think it also gave me tremendous respect for authors and publishers actually because I thought, you know, Charmaine, you talked about this, like not surrendering, you've got to step up, you've got to be in it. And I did surrender. I felt so intimidated by the process. Yes, because you do. Which is odd because I worked in a freaking literary agency. So you would think that I would have the tools to do it. But I was like, I don't like, I don't know if I like that cover. I don't know if I like I just didn't feel able. It's such a raw place to be though. You can be in publishing. But unless you're in publishing with your debut novel, you don't understand how wide open that splits you and how vulnerable you. are to the whole thing.

Me big mouthy bouchy now, Shalmers like, who is this version? Just like, wow. What's happening? Wow, I'm startled by this. And I was some good memories. Like, please don't get me wrong.

Of course there were. But I realized that I did not have the constitution to go through that process. I was too young. I had too much work to deal on myself. I could not get in there. Maybe if I did it like now, I'd have a bit more kind of inner metal to be able to withstand that. But I just didn't.

And I remember my husband turned around to me. I was crying over a crock pot in August because I had it with you, but I didn't like. It was like a purple crock pot and I picked it up and I just started crying. And he looked at him and he went, ever since I've known you, you've been dreaming about this moment. And you've got it and you're unhappy. What is this? Yeah. And it really re-framed exactly.

I was like, right, I don't know if this is what I can do, but I do know what I can learn from this. This is how I'm going to agent. I have got it wrong in the past as an agent. I know I have. There are things that I would do differently. now then from what I did because of what I have learned and how I have grown and shedding the coats of what I think I should be and actually like embracing who I am. And we do make mistakes in this industry. We absolutely do. But I have to give tremendous props to publishers and to

authors. Authors are putting themselves out there in the most heinously vulnerable way, often dismissed and treated by people as if they're just doing a hobby when actually what they are doing is excoriating and basically like a full-time job that takes huge sacrifice. Publishers are creating something out of absolutely nothing. They are trying to find an audience that they don't even know exists. They're trying to manage multiple departments, multiple projects. They're doing their absolute best. They're constantly getting in the neck from one side or another.

And in lots of cases, communication can break down. That's the job of the agent, is to step in and kind of help on this side and to hold the hands of both because it's a very tricky, complicated process. And I still feel hugely privileged to do what I do. I feel intense joy at the triumphs of my authors. But I also know how bloody fucking hard it is, what it is that they're doing. And I feel it in my solar plexus when things don't go right. It's personal for me because it's personal for them. I'm professional with publishers, but I get it. It's not, you know. I know how personal it is for you. You still hold on to some of the rejection emails.

You remind me of some of them. Like, Mel, I forgot those years ago. I've never forgiven them. You're a fucking idiot. That's not what I have to like, that's what we have to do. It's really really hard. So hopefully that gives you a sense of what to think about. But once you've decided, all things considered, that you want to be published.

How do you know when you're ready? Okay, guys, come on. do have to give people some practical advice. Actually, let's start from this point. Sarah, how do you know you're at the point where you should find a literary agent? When are you ready? Yeah. Well, I mean, so I had a really unusual experience, Nell, in that, as you know, I found you before I was ready. I mean, I found you. It was just such luck and serendipity. But actually, there is a useful point to make here, which is that prizes can be a good way of finding an agent before you're ready. And the advantage of finding an agent before you're ready is that if the

agent has good editorial instincts. Like you do, Nell, it makes a huge difference of the way the book is shaped and just having company in the process of finishing it. So I entered the Lucy Cavendish Fiction Prize when I only had three or four chapters of my novel and you were one of the judges. And I think it was a kind of shortlisting perk that all of the shortlistees got a meeting with you. And so I came along to that massive couch that Elizabeth talked about. I was so sad to leave it. And I do remember my first impression of you, being this woman is gorgeous and a powerhouse and I can tell immediately and she dresses so bloody well. And I didn't realize that this meeting was like an interview. I thought you were just

going to give me some polite thoughts about the manuscript and send me on my way to finish it. And then after we had a little chat, you said, and I'd like to offer you representation. And it really took all of my wherewithal to stay on that fucking couch and not faint off me. So I think look for those prizes, that's one of the things that really transform the trajectory of my career. There's the Bath Novel Award and the Mislexia Novel Prize, which we judged together at one point now. Those are such good ways of being picked up when the book is still raw material. But if you're not going that route, then I think you have to get the manuscript to a position where you feel, I can't do any more with this. I've done the best I can. And that means don't stop at your first draft.

A first draft is not a finished book. But when you have done as much revival. and editing as you can, and there are diminishing returns to going back through it again. You think it's readable, and maybe you've got some trusted beta readers who have read it and given you feedback, and you've taken that on board, then you send it out. But if you send it out in the sort of traditional querying process, when it's a mass of on-finished raw material, it's likely to get lost. If you feel it's raw, but it's got potential, try a prize instead. But that's a really good tip. That's a really good tip. When you have got to this day, you're supposed to query agents. Now, please don't query agents if you don't have a finished manuscript

because there's nothing more irritating than when we pick something up and then we're like, can we read the full thing? And the author's like, I haven't finished it. You're not a writer if you haven't finished a book. That's basically like the first book for. Agents are online. Don't send paper submissions. We're all online. Just Google them. See what they've said in interview. See what they're looking for. Please don't send things to agents that they specifically said they're not looking for. If the agent says, I don't want sci-fi and fantasy, you're not going to change their mind. It's not going to happen, okay? Like, don't do it. You'll just get rejected. Also, don't send to more than one agent per agency. The same way that

Charmaine and another editor can't publish two books at the same time, agents can't co-agent. That's not how it works. I like to tell people, if you go and find like maybe 30 agents, and then I like to say, split them up into groups of 10, and then send out to the first 10, see if you get any feedback, see if you get any call-ins, if they all reject you, stop, revise, and then send it out to the next 10 and then keep going, like a relay. And the reason I do this is if you send it to all 30 and we all reject you, you can't send it to agents again.

Such a good tip. A good way of finding agents is to figure out what agents are looking for and a good way of thinking about, as we said in earlier podcasts, like your genre, your voice, et cetera, who is it most like? And if you look in the acknowledgements of the back of any book, then they should always thank their agents. Yeah. If they're not thanking the agent, you don't want that agent. You don't want that agent. And also the writers and artist handbook as well is a good place to start to figure out where you can go. And as you said, like looking at what they're specifically interested in in terms of the agent is really, really important.

Also, on every agency page, they will have a submission guideline, which will tell you what it is that you need to do. A lot of people struggle with the submission guidelines. I just want to make it very clear. The submission guidelines is not for you as the author. It's for us as the agent. It's to help us to be able to make a decision as quickly and concisely as possible. So when we say, please do X, Y and Z, we need you to do X, Y and Z. If you decide, actually, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to do something else, an automatic reduction. That to us is like, this person is difficult and thinks that they know better, don't want to work with them.

If an agent likes your book, they will ask for the full manuscript. If they then want to offer your representation, they will then do it off the back of that. They will usually have a meeting with you. This is to assess whether or not you're a psychopath to see what kind of person you are. And to make sure you're not totally absolutely crazy. There are definitely moments when I have called in a manuscript. I loved it. I've met the author.

And then I've been like, okay, great. And no. Because I want those stories, maybe offline. Offline. Offline. I'm like, there is no way this is going to work. This is a nightmare waiting to happen. Like, there's being someone else's problem, thank God. And then other times that I've been like this person like with you is so amazing.

I need to have them like now. So that will happen. Look, we can't go through all of this. But the one thing I'll leave you with before I move in to Charmaine is this. Getting an agent is not as important as getting the right agent. If no one but one person offers you representation and you need. meet them and you think, I don't like it, I don't like what they're asking me to do, this doesn't feel right. And you sign with them, you are going to end up right back in the same position of finding a new agent, maybe six months, me six years down the line. Yeah. Don't do it. Hold out and wait for the one who is your career agent, not your start a marriage into publishing, because you will just end up right back in the same position again and there is no need. I know that's really hard advice, but it is better to hold out for the one. than to have to go through the one before the one.

It's like any sort of job interview, right? It's not just you, the interviewee who's on interview. Like you as the company is also on interview. And I think that that's really important to remember and understand with these relationships. It's not just about how they feel about you. It's about how you feel about that. Yeah, don't be powerless.

You're not. This is your book. This is your baby. This is your career. This is your opportunity. you've got to take it, you've got to feel that rightness to know that you're in a good place because when all things go wrong, if they do, it's you and your agent. And if you don't feel like that person is in your corner, if you don't think that this is a person who's going to stick

with you if no one buys your book, please don't do it. Please don't do it. I beg you. With the garage door? Yep. Installed window sensors, smoke sensors, and HD cameras with night vision? No. And you set up credit card transaction alerts, a secure VPN for a private connection, and continuous monitoring for our personal info on the dark web?

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the ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Jamain, what should they know next about the publishing process? How it works is agents submit to us. based upon figuring out the genre, the style, the story and our taste. So each publishing house is divided into different divisions. Each division is then divided into imprints, and each imprint is run by a publisher,

and each imprint has its own focus. So one will be nonfiction, so upmarket nonfiction, another be commercial nonfiction. One will be literary fiction, another one will be literary fiction, another one will be commercial fiction, and one will be sci-fi, for example. So then with all of the different imprints, they will have different editors at different levels from publisher to assistant editor and in between editorial director, commissioning editor, senior commissioning editor, editor.

So there's all these different people who are hungry for books that are publishing in a very specific way because that's what their imprint requires of them. And for each imprint to work, you need to have. multiple books over the year. At any one time, so let's say now, I'm actively publishing the books for 2024. I am preparing to publish the books for 2025, so those books I'm either in edits or I'm talking to writers, especially nonfiction, about their edits. And nonfiction is because when we acquire it, it's not finished, whereas when we acquire fiction, it's finished. So we're actively working on edits and the edits for nonfiction to come later.

and then I'm acquiring books for autumn 2025 and the whole of 2026. So those books come through agents, submission. And now that it's London Book Fair, the submissions have ramped up. So our inboxes are full with stories, which is really exciting. So we're reading those stories as editors and depending on what level you are, you're discussing it with your imprint heads and your team and you're saying, I really, really like this. I think we've got space for this. I've got a vision for it. I would like to take it forward. So then it's agreed that it should be taken forward to an acquisition meeting, which at Dialogue we call a creative meeting. And that's where sales, marketing, publicity, finance, contracts, rights, design, all read and get a taste of the book.

And then it's discussed in the round as to the positioning and the vision for the book. This is where we have this system called comparative titles. And the comparative titles are books that are similar to the book that is being presented. and how many copies they sold and we basically work out from the genre and the type of book how many copies a similar book to it sold and then that's how we work out the advance and then we make an offer to the agent who's probably given us a deadline and said we love this book so much this is why I need to publish a public it. I'm often like there is nobody else in the world who could publish this book as well as

me is like basically always my opening line. Because actually you really feel like that. Like you really, really feel like this is my book. I have to publish it. And I love this so much. And if I wasn't able to work on it, I would be absolutely devastated. And obviously you go through that at least like two or three times a month. But you also really mean it every single time. And so then the agent and the commissioning editor go back and forth on a deal. Sometimes there's an auction if there's multiple other imprints or editors that also really love the book across the industry. And then when you win the book, you schedule it. When I win the book, then we schedule it and we give it a date.

And then we meet with the author and agent. We might have met them before. We might have done a bit of a beauty contest to get a sense of what the editorial notes would be, what the vision is. And so that also helps the author to make a decision as to where they're going to go. And again, that's a two-way thing because we can all basically do something that's really similar and as publishing houses and especially like the big corporates, like the big five. There isn't a kind of magic that one knows that another one doesn't because actually our industry is quite small. everyone's moving around. So the thing is really thinking about that editor relationship and do you believe that this person will get you through this process and has your back and is really excited and the

things that they want to do they're going to be able to deliver on. You know, we have this adage in publishing, which is if we all knew how to create bestsellers, we would do it every day. And the thing is, we don't know exactly how it works, but what we do know is that we'll give everything to try. For the first part of our podcast episode on publishing, I told you it's a wild ride, but I hope it's given you all something to think about. Join us next time for part two and the tips on how to get it right. And of course, the reasons why it's all worth it. See you then.

Thank you so much for listening. And please do remember to like and subscribe and share a link with every. everyone you know. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.