How To Date - How to Write a Book | 12. PUBLISHING (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Well, you’ve made it! Thank you so much for joining us on this podclass - 12 weeks to take you right through from developing ideas to creating compelling characters and now, how to get your book into the hands of the reading public. This week, our hosts Sara Collins, Sharmaine Lovegrove and Nelle Andrew continue their chat about how to get published and how to navigate the publishing industry. Publishing is a daunting experience for a seasoned writer, let alone a debut author. But - don’t worry - we’ve got you covered. From what our literary agent, author and publishing expert wish they knew about the publishing process before they started, to managing expectations, and what makes it all worthwhile in the end. We hope you find this discussion a heartening listen that emboldens you to take the enormously brave step into the world of publishing. Together, Sara, Sharmaine and Nelle are your on-hand writing community giving you the push you need to get started on that novel, memoir, or piece of non fiction you've always dreamed of writing. And, as ever, Elizabeth is on hand at the end to offer her final reflections. Executive produced by Elizabeth Day for Daylight Productions and Carly Maile for Sony Music Entertainment. Produced by Imogen Serwotka. Please do get in touch with us, your writing community, with thoughts, feedback, submissions and more at: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you lock the front door? Check. Close the garage door? Yep. Installed window sensors, smoke sensors, and HD cameras with night vision? No. And you set up credit card transaction alerts, a secure VPN for a private connection,

and continuous monitoring for our personal info on the dark web? Uh, I'm looking into it. Stress less about security. Choose security solutions from TELUS for peace of mind at home and online. Visit tellus.com slash total security to learn more. apply. Hello and welcome back to how to write a book. It's Elizabeth Day here, author, podcaster and executive producer of this 12-week pod class, which takes you by the hand and guides you right through from developing an idea to getting your final manuscript ready for publication.

And how to write a book is also the place to come, if like me, you're a passionate reader and want to find out more about what happens behind the scenes of the literary world. Every week, you'll get an exclusive insight into how and why our most celebrated writers wrote the books they did, and what it really means to create unforgettable stories. Because we all have a story in us. But how do we get it out there? To help you through the process, I've brought together a crack team, leading agent Nell Andrew, best-selling author Sarah Collins, and powerhouse publisher Charmaine Lovegrove, three amazing women who are also really good friends. So yes, we might be teaching you a new skill set, but you'll also get a seat at our friendship table. We hope very much you'll stay

for the conversation and the laughs along the way. Without further ado, let me hand over to Sarah, Nell and Charmaine for the last segment of our two-part episode on publishing. In the words of Nell at the beginning of part one, you've made it. You've surveyed the mountain and you've climbed to the peaks. And we're here to guide you on how to see it all the way through. Let me tell you, the process doesn't end when the book's finished. We start with some wise advice about how to make the most of it. What would you want out of the publication process for your next one

as opposed to what you thought you were going to get for your first one? I feel like I should also say my debut novel did well and was in many ways a really wonderful experience yeah you know sort of pinch me dream come true moments so you know it wasn't all terrible but I think it's been really useful in kind of setting my expectations and so I do believe that you should really aim high for your books I love the Octavia Butler story she wanted to publish sci-fi at a time when black writers, let alone black woman, did not publish sci-fi. She was publishing into a space that was dominated by white men. And she wrote this manifesto for herself, which was incredibly specific. It wasn't wishy-washy dreaming. It was, I want to be on these bestseller lists and she named them. I want reviews in this magazine. I want to sell and she named the number of copies she wanted to sell. I will then develop scholarships for young black children. I mean, it was incredibly specific. and I do believe in that. I had that kind of vision board for Franny, including I will have a meeting at Harper Collins in New York, because for some reason, I'd visited New York several times as a lawyer. And every time I passed the Harper Collins office, which I actually had moved by the time Franny was published by then. Years before I even thought about writing a novel, I said, I will go into that building one day and meet my editor about my book, you know, those kinds of specific things. And they all happen. They all happened. And so,

It's really interesting because I think part of the sort of disappointment of the debut process was realizing that you can't manage it. I don't know if you remember Nell that when we were sending Brannie out on submission, you said to me, right now, you've done the best you can. You've left nothing on the table. But when this book goes out, it's a case of Jesus taking real. And I actually, I don't know if you know this, but my heart broke because I thought, but it's a really good book. Like someone's going to publish it. And you. you said to me, look, you've done the bit you can control. Everything else is up to someone else now. You can be proud of what you've done, but Jesus is going to take the wheel here and we may crash or we may. And I think that's what I brought into the second process, that my expectations, and I really do mean this, my expectations for this book at the moment until I get to the vision board stage are just I want to write the best book that I possibly can and I want to write a better book than I wrote with Frannie. That's it.

I really do. I'm aiming for something quite high. And I think that's all you should be doing in the writing process. And then when I start manifesting for this book, I'll tell you about the specific bestseller list and who I want to play who in the adaptation. I also think, though, that I'm kind of equipped now to deal with publishers in a way I wasn't before.

You know, I'll know the things that worked for me and the things that didn't the last time. Like, for example, I will say, there is a big flurry about your book, especially when you're a debut. People can't get enough of you. They email you all the time. There's a big fuss. That will die down. At some point, the sales will slow or some new thing will come along.

And it's important, I think, to be prepared for that. All of those things that you experience the first time around really equip you for the second time. Chuck, can I ask you a bit of a question because obviously you're trying to create the sales. we're trying to manifest physically all the things that as an agent and author we are aiming for in terms of our hopes and anticipations. What do you think about the fact that TikTok has actually become so responsible for the flurry of, like, romanticity? This is such a mystery to me. I love it.

I love it so much. And also, do you think if you feel really intimidated by traditional publishing that you have more control if you're self-published? Like, what are your thoughts about those two things? Just sort of generally in publishing, I think. there's a lot of work to do to make publishing more inclusive. We're really aware of that. But that doesn't mean that everybody from every background has a great story, like every single person. What it means is that as individuals, everybody should have the opportunity to be heard. And if they write something that's good enough to be published, then it should be published without question of their gender, sexuality, their class, their background, the race.

Like, that's what inclusion looks like. And so when people are self-publishing, I think it's really important to think about why you're self-publishing and why you're not going through that process to have a team that actually actively supports you to do that. And then on the other side, I just think it's amazing when people take their own initiative and do things because they want to

and that they're not necessarily seeing it as just a career. it's a hobby as well they're able to write because they have the time and the inclination and the talent and then they just want to get things up online so I think the reasons as to why people self-publish can be different but I think when it comes from

an anger at the publishing industry then that's not helping you know it's not helping because did you take on any of the tips that any of the agents or any of the freelance editors that you spoke to did you take that advice or did you just write something and then be like but I think this is good so I want to do it So that's self-publishing.

I love TikTok. I love booktok. I think it's absolutely extraordinary. We published a book called The Sex Lives of African Women. Oh, yeah, I've got that one. It's so good. And I love seeing how people on TikTok, especially from sort of African nations or the Caribbean, are taking to this book and annotating it.

And then finding a video camera or filming the video. or filming themselves talking about it. I just like, this is so next level. And I wish I could have done this when I was younger. I wish I was just like reading and thinking and then being in the library and then sort of trying to find people to talk to other people about the books.

And now you've got this entire platform with millions of eager people who are forming communities and listening to what you've got to say about a book that you love so much. But no other reason than the fact that you love it. What I'm obsessed with and why my company is called dialogue

is because it's about the exchange between the author and the reader and that's the most important thing to me. I think it's one of the most valuable relationships in our society, and that's like my obsession. So yeah, book talk for me is just absolutely golden. And I think one of the most helpful things about it

is recently, as publishers, we've realized that we absolutely cannot control it, as in we don't know where it's going to come from. We don't know what book going to find, but someone's going to find something and then it's just going to fly. And that kind of organic reader, it's not even like that it's disruptive, right? I think it's a good thing to be disruptive. I think sometimes you need to be. No, but it's. Yeah, disrupting the traditional model. Yeah, exactly. But I don't even think it is disruptive because I think it's

what we've always done, but we've just did it in a different way. Like now you can see that people are doing it, but actually the way that books were sold before and it continue to be sold is through word of mouth. It's just a new way of word of mouth. I don't see it as being a disruption. I just see it as an evolution of what we've already always been doing. The book club just became global, basically. Are publishers trying to co-op this, though? So are publishers now targeting successful book talkers and including them in their advanced review campaigns? Of course. Then it kind of becomes subsumed in the traditional model in that sense then. Exactly. Exactly. That's what I mean. It's an evolution of a new way of finding.

audiences, because actually they're not doing something different. They're just using a different medium. Exactly. And before it was traditional reviewers and critics and newspapers, but now it's like the public are telling. And also, we've long had bloggers, but this is just really colorful and it's really inclusive and it's just a bit more of a surprise. What's really interesting, which I think is disruptive, is the fact that it's not about

what's coming out today, what's coming out this week, this month. it's about people discovering a book and being like, did you know? And the same for music. Like people suddenly listening to Missy Elliott's album in 1989. And you're like, what? How did you not know that? But also, like, thank God you found it and, you know, look at what you're doing with it. So I just think that level of creativity matches the creativity of what we're trying to do within a publishing house.

We've talked so much about the industry, the good, the bad things that can be done right the things that's not. Look, every industry has difficulties, has challenges. And there are people who are not perhaps holding to the same standard that you would like. That's true of every single industry. I think publishing still contains this sort of veneer of sweet, evuncular, battered armchairs, bound books that smells like leather. And I think because of that, people go into it thinking it needs to be sweet and kind of quite cozy. And it's not. It's a very unholy marriage and alliance between all of the corporate considerations that Shamin has talked about, all of the personal considerations that Sarah has talked about, and they're trying to kind of meld the two together. Sometimes we get it wrong.

Sometimes the pressure gets to us. We are constantly evolving and trying to catch up as things move forward. We're having conversations now that would have been unheard of, you know, five or ten years ago. and no, we may not be moving as fast as some people like, but we are trying, we are moving. And it is super personal. Shamey and I talk about this, like when a book doesn't work,

we take that as deeply into ourselves as with the author. When I do auctions, I have to take myself off to the V&A. I literally have to take myself off to the V&A and walk around the sculpture garden so I can just bring myself down to the space that I like need to be because I feel that responsibility so deeply.

Like my husband will come in And he'll be like, oh, great, that's the next two weeks of our life. Done. You are out of there. He's like, this is all you're going to talk about. This is all that you're going to think about. And like, he's like, literally, I'm just, it's a constant, like, refrain. There are things that we could do better. But at the same time, we are trying.

And we're here because we believe. And we love what it is that we do. Tim's new scrambled egg loaded croissant. Or is it croissant? No matter how you say it, start your day with freshly cracked scrambled eggs loaded on a buttery, flaky croissant. Try it with maple brown butter today at Tim's

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Let's summarise. But first, a sigh of relief and a pat on the back for making it this far. Well done. It's no small feat writing a book. And we have loved being your on-hand writing community over these last few weeks. With that said, what are the main takeaways from this series? What makes the pain of trying really worth it? and why should you write a book? What do you think, Sarah, authors should know and publishers should know to help themselves throughout the entirety of this process? What can they take away from this? What should they do to help that call as they go on their own particular journey,

which might have peaks, which might have troughs, which might have more troughs than peaks, what would you leave them with? The question that kept coming back to me, over and over during my debut year was why did you do this? Because I think you're only going to feel fulfilled about something if it meets the objective you had in doing it, right?

And so you have to be quite clear about that. Cool Runnings was a film that completely butchered the Jamaican accent. But it did leave us with one really helpful nugget, which I think Annie Lamott, who's got a great book on the writing life called Bird by Bird, quoted. So the coach in Cool Runnings says

to the Jamaican bobsled team, If you weren't good enough before the gold medal, you won't be good enough after. And that stuck with me. I think when you're interrogating your whys, absent from that answer should be writing this book is going to define my value, either to myself or to the world. I think you have to be very clear about your value. You put it so beautifully now. You've got to bring yourself to the process, but with a real strong sense of self that isn't going to be buffeted by the slings and arrows. of publishing. And then if you exclude that, if you know that your sense of self will be protected

and is quite well established before you go into the process, then you think about the wise. And for some people, it is money. For some people, it is fame. That's just the honest truth. And if you are honest about that and it's money and fame and that's what you want, you want to be a Sunday Times bestseller, you want everyone to know your name, you want to be recognized in the supermarket, you're going to have to accept that that may not come and you're not in control of it, you're going to have to accept that there might be disappointment along the way. But if you're why, and I think for me, this is the reason why I'm still in publishing, because at various points, even though I had a success that most people would never in their million years achieve

with a book, I still did question whether I wanted to do it again. And for me, the reason why I am doing it again is because my why is, I think that there are very few art forms in this world more important than books, that, you know, the connections that books can form between readers and between writers and readers are life-changing and life-saving in many ways and have, as we've all said in different ways in this podcast, changed and saved our lives. And that life just isn't worth living without, I really do believe, without books. Because books teach us how to examine in life. They provide a kind of blueprint for connection with other people. They provide a template for empathy. They imagine a better world. I really do think that that's what we're doing,

you know, as authors, that it comes from a kind of careful observation of the world, but a discontent with it and trying to shape it into something that's just better. It's a hugely aspirational thing to do. And it's a thing that it is a huge privilege to be able to get to do. I believe in the magic of books. And I think if you hang on to that kind of why, if the why doesn't come from external things, but from your own internal motivation, it's much less difficult to be disappointed. It really genuinely doesn't matter to me now, whether the next book is a Sunday Times bestseller or gets adapted with Idrisal by playing the lead, although, you know, that's going to be on my vision board. But that just happened to come to your mind. Because my why will already have been met.

my why will already have been met if I can just write the book that feels like I am once again joining that conversation all those writers who have spoken to me who I have loved over the course of my life I'm speaking back and it's a huge honour just to be part of the conversation yeah so I think to myself what would have happened if you had decided not to write that book I think about that a lot what if you had been derailed or pulled off course because people didn't believe in you because you didn't have the courage to believe in yourself because life got in the way, how my life would have changed, how my career would have changed. And I think about that often because I truly believe that writers are so deeply important. Me and

we have dedicated our lives to this. And like as Tolkien says, you know, not all those who wander are lost. And I think if you don't wander into the difficult spaces, into the challenges that other people may not understand, maybe dismissive of, then how will we ever find you? How will we ever find you? How will you ever be able to elicit this change and to create these incredible spaces because it's perseverance. The difference really between the person I've never met and the person on my bookshelf is perseverance. It's just keep on going and you have to keep trying because that is what it is. It's a craft and an art and I am so deeply grateful that you kept trying and that all the authors that I am so privileged to represent kept trying.

because that has given me the purpose to keep trying myself. I'm so in awe of all the writers that just kept going despite it all, despite lifing. And it's really such hard work, but it's so powerful and so necessary. And the tradition of storytelling is so fascinating, where we all come from as human, beings and how we have been sharing stories since we evolved. That is what kind of marks us out as different as animals and our need to share these stories and what we do with them and how we tell ourselves stories in order to live, right? It's like that is the quote and and it is true, occasional. It's so enlighting and empowering side by side and it's informative and it's also really

intentional. Like, this is a book. These are words on a page. And it's going to do something to you. The act of reading is so powerful and so radical. To take your time away and to sit and read a book and be in the words and the mind of somebody else who's created this world for and characters for you is absolutely incredible. And such a radical act is amazing. A song takes like, you know, three minutes to listen to. A painting. in a gallery. If you're there for five minutes, then that's already time. But books are like hours, hours. And that commitment to your writing from the reader, that dialogue is really extraordinary. And I just think we're so very, very, very, very lucky to be able to participate.

And I hope that this inspires our listeners to keep going and to persevere and to perfect their craft, hone their craft, and then bring it to us so that we can bring it to readers. That honestly makes me want to cry in a good way, in a good way. And I hope it provides reason enough for you to dive headfirst into your final listener exercise. This is the time we're going to give you your last listener exercise. We want to hear from you. Please send us your passages of writing at the following email how to write a book.daylight at gmail.com. That's how to write a book. Dot daylight at gmail.com.

And we will look at them and choose some of them to read out in a special writer's workshop bonus episode. You can submit anonymously or under your own name. And this is now the end. We have to say goodbye, which is actually really hard to do. It's very hard. We can't cover everything. I would say that the podcast is an introduction, a taster, a guide, but the rest is really up to you.

I want to thank these incredible women for their inspiration and their words. I feel like I'm going to be a better agent and a better reader, having that beside you guys for this. Obviously, we all want to thank our listeners for being with us through this journey. I've got to thank Elizabeth for just bringing us together and coming up with this in the first place. and you will probably hear Sarah and Charmaine again on the podcasts because they are efficient and don'ts but if this is the last podcast that I ever do my first and last oh please I have to say I went out on a big fucking high put it that way listen before you move on I am just going to make a prediction now that this is not the last

podcast you will ever do now please what am I going to talk about the trials of like finding a polo neck that does make me look too fat I mean we can talk about films we can talk about where to find the best stuff in zara i mean i could go on and on and on make up you know that things people care about this is not your last one time um we can't wait to see your submissions then guys so please do send i'm really excited about the signal submissions i just can't wait to see what it is that people put on the page and that confidence shining through basically i want us to have a book baby i want this pod class to have a book baby like a few years from now, Nell will be agenting and Charming will be publishing a book that we've

discovered on this podcast. Oh my God, I can't wait. And I have to say, don't be intimidated, guys. Like, we will treat you with kindness. We're not dicks. We're going to take care of you. We have no desire to tell you down. We're going to try and help lift you up what this podcast did. We are all about the empowerment. You don't think, I don't want them to read it. We are not those people. We've been treated by those people and we do not want to carry on that cycle. So we are going to come with compassion and kindness. Do not worry. That's what we're all about. All right. Who's going to have the last word? Thank you so much for listening. I started with this vision of all the people that would be listening, many of whom would be in the position I was

in struggling to write my first book. And I'm ending with that vision and cannot wait to read your work. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine, the defender, Octa, is taking on the Dakar rally. The ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days, delivered with Uber Eats.

What do we mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. But a banana, that's a yes. A nice tan. Sorry. Nope. But a box fan, happily yes. A day of sunshine? No.

A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency App for details. I was going to start by singing Frank Sinatra and now the end is near.

But no one needs to hear that. What limited expertise I do have is in the field of books and podcasts and you've had it. You've had it all. Singing is not in my wheelhouse. So I'm not going to assault your ears with that. But I do feel really emotional that we are now at the final episode of our pod class. And I feel emotional for a number of reasons. First of all, the entire idea of a pod class, is a new one. And I feel really passionately about sharing expert knowledge to as wide an audience as we can possibly reach because I don't believe in gatekeepers to knowledge. And also because I really, really wanted to showcase the talents of these three women.

and of course there are many people who know about books and there are many people who work in publishing but there aren't that many people who could express everything so well and who could do so in a way that felt fully inclusive and funny and profound and insightful and deeply deeply helpful I have learnt so much from listening to this and I've written nine books so I sort of wish I listened to the How to Write a Book Pod class before beginning any of them because it's really clarified a lot of my own thoughts on the writing process

and I feel that I will return to the episodes again and again and I hope that you'll do that too this is always going to be here as a free writing resource and a free writing community and even if you just feel like being in the company of Sarah Charmaine and Nell I mean, and who wouldn't? We will always be here for that as well. So don't fear we're not going anywhere. And I was also really, really keen that we ended this pod class with an episode on the

publishing process because it's something that often gets forgotten about in conventional writing courses. And actually, that's ideally what many of us will be aiming towards and it can feel really intimidating if you don't know anything about it. And also, there's been so much chat over the recent years, and rightfully so, about the mental health issues in the publishing industry, which is often underpaid and overworked and somewhat monocultural, although that is really changing, and I'm happy to see that. But also, the mental health pressures placed on authors because writing a book is or can be a very solitary experience and it's no coincidence that a lot of introverts are drawn to the idea of writing a book and then when you're asked to

go out on the road and promote it that's an entirely different set of skills and sometimes we're not prepared for that and so I'm really glad that we had an insider's take from all aspects about what it is to be published and I think that one of the things came that came across loud and clear is the idea that writing is, at its best, a sort of vocation. I certainly feel like that. I don't make sense unless I write. When I write, I feel I untangle my thoughts about the world and I fervently hope that I will be writing forever. And that has to coincide with the idea of publishing as a business. And sometimes it feels as though there's attention between the two and that if you go in unprepared, you can have a series of rude

awakenings. And I thought that the way Nell expressed it, both as an author herself, although she doesn't like to brag about that, and as an agent was so beautiful, which is that to succeed doesn't mean there's only one way you can be. That idea of having your core integrity, who you are as a person and being very aware of your value as a person and as a writer. And that value existing before publication, before writing and after writing and after publication, that's who you are. The way you are published, the way that your work is received, is not ultimately a definition on the integrity of your character. It can sometimes feel like it when, as I did, you get too devastating review.

for your first ever novel. The first two reviews I got, whoa, they were humdingers. And I've never forgotten them, but they really, they taught me a lot. I mean, they taught me that I could cope with that kind of reception. And also, I was lucky to be reviewed

as a first-time novelist, really. And ultimately, people are going to have their own opinions and their own criticisms, but you have to stay true to the thing that you have created, and you have to stay true to yourself, ultimately. And I also think that it's better to elicit opinions than just to elicit a big old Gallic shrug of indifference that ultimately if you're putting something into the world

that is unique and that has its own strong voice, then not everyone's going to like it, but that's a positive because the people who do like it and who do get it will really get it and they will ride or die for you. So I did think it was funny when Nell was talking about the middle class Emmas that peopled publishing when she first joined. And Charmaine and I have a long-running joke about this, about the fact that everyone is called Riannon. And there was a particular time when Charmaine, it was actually a paperback dinner I had for my novel, The Party, and Charmaine came along. And we had had a bit to drink, and we were in hysterics in the Uber. We went on to a bar. Actually, oh my gosh, one of the best nights of my life. I digress. All you need to

know is that it was a dinner with lots of people and the two people left standing at, I think it was 4 a.m. or me and Charmaine. And we'd had this hysterical exchange in the taxi where the taxi driver was playing Rihanna. And Charmaine said, I always think that DJ Khalid is saying Riannon, because everyone in publishing is called Rianan. Anyway, as I say, a massive digression. The practical tips in this episode, though, were really helpful. So that idea of agent batching, so coming up with a list of 30 agents, but batching them in groups of 10 or even of 5, and being able to acquire the data that a possible rejection might give you, and then being able to finesse and edit the manuscript and send it out to the new 10, I thought that was actually brilliant. And when I published

my first novel, it was sent out. As I mentioned in the interview, my then agent just sent it out to five publishers, and I got rejections from each one. And she just forwarded the rejection emails, which was like pretty hardcore. But it did give me the opportunity to ask myself if I thought they had a point. And if some of the points they'd raised were valid, I might have gone and changed the manuscript. As it is, I found a lovely publisher who just agreed with every single word. So there's also that option. And again, when I started writing, we had to use the writer's handbook in physical form and they were incredibly expensive, I remember, but you do get them in the library and they still exist and they're a fabulously helpful resource because in that

book, all of the agents are listed and all of their interests are listed. And then Charmaine's idea of looking at the acknowledgments of books that you like or all. who you think you write like, and seeing the agents that they've thanked and pitching your work to them, that's a very clever idea. It did make me laugh when Sarah was like, if the agent isn't thanked, you don't want them to represent you. And again, remembering that you're not the only one being interviewed, if you do go and meet potential agents or potential editors. It is about a chemistry read. It's about a dynamic fit. And I always think that good advice, if you get to the lucky situation of having various publishers fighting over you,

is to go with the ones who want you the most and also to go with the ones who you feel get you the most. Because ideally you want this to be a long-term partnership where you can grow together. Didn't know that Sarah manifested her work, but you know who else does that? Bernardine Everisto. Bernadine Everisto told me in her episode of my other podcast, How to Fail, that she had manifested winning the Booker Prize for years before she won the Booker Prize. So there's clearly something in it. And given that it's very powerful, I'm looking forward to seeing Idris Elba as Sarah's next lead in the screen adaptation of her second not. of all. Didn't expect to hear cool runnings quoted in the final episode of this podcast, but

I valued it immensely. That really strong sense of yourself and your own value and the idea of bringing yourself to the process ultimately being your biggest superpower of all, as is perseverance. Because it is fundamentally true that all, all, Although 98% of people might believe they have a book in them, it's that very special 2% who get the words on the page and actually write it. Remember that writing is the most beautiful art and vocation, but it is also a craft. You can't build a cathedral without first laying your foundations

and understanding the nature of bricks and putting one brick on top of the other and sometimes thinking you're building the worst section of wall in the world but ultimately you have to have faith that one day your building will stand on its own. So I wish you all the best with whatever you're writing,

whatever story you want to tell. I hope that we have been a help and I hope that we have been your companions along the way and I can't wait to read some of your submissions. The email is in the show notes. It's been an absolute joy being a part of this particular story with all of you. Thank you so much for listening to How to Write a Book. Thank you so much for listening and please do remember to like and subscribe and share a link

with everyone you know. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you.