How To Date - How to Write a Book | 7. PLOT (Part 1)

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

In the seventh episode of How to Write a Book, Elizabeth Day’s new podclass series, hosts Sara Collins, Sharmaine Lovegrove and Nelle Andrew take a slightly more structured approach to their discussion, having plotted out how best to talk about plot. We open up with wise advice on plot mastery  from Nelle, who as a literary agent, has taught hundreds of writers about this tricky discipline. Where should you begin when it comes to structuring your ideas? How do plots vary across commercial and literary strands? Where does the snobbishness around “the plottiest of plots” come from? And why novels with an interior focus, or stream of consciousness writing, still need to be plotted. Together, Sara, Sharmaine and Nelle are your on-hand writing community giving you the push you need to get started on that novel, memoir, or piece of non fiction you've always dreamed of writing. And because every great plot should have a cliffhanger, we’re doing part 2 of PLOT next week! Books discussed in PLOT (part 1 and part 2) include: •  Secret History by Donna Tart •  Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins •  The Confessions of Frannie Langton by Sara Collins •  Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn •  Fingersmith by Sarah Waters •  August Blue by Deborah Levy We also talk about: Jonathan Coe, Cormac McCarthy, Sara Collins’ new novel, Ghost Story,  Succession, Thomas Hardy,  Deborah Levy, Rachel Cusk, Toni Morrison, Will Storr, Elizabeth Strout, classical music and hip-hop. Executive produced by Elizabeth Day for Daylight Productions and Carly Maile for Sony Music Entertainment. Produced by Imogen Serwotka. Please do get in touch with us, your writing community, with thoughts, feedback and more at: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Wait, was that the group chat? Ah, sent a text to the group that definitely wasn't for everyone. You're good. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. Hello, and welcome back to how to write a book. It's Elizabeth Day here, author, podcast.

an executive producer of this 12-week podcast, which takes you by the hand and guides you right through, from developing an idea to getting your final manuscript ready for publication. And how to write a book is also the place to come, if, like me, you're a passionate reader and want to find out more about what happens behind the scenes of the literary world. Every week, you'll get an exclusive insight into how and why our most celebrated writers wrote the books they did, and what it really means to create unforgettable stories. Because we all have a story in us. But how do we get it out there? To help you through the process, I've brought together a crack team. Leading agent Nell Andrew, best-selling author,

Sarah Collins, and powerhouse publisher Charmaine Lovegrove, three amazing women who are also really good friends. So yes, we might be teaching you a new skill set, but you'll also get a seat at our friendship table. We hope very much you'll stay for the conversation and the laughs along the way. This week, we're planning on getting a little bit more official. We're taking it to the next stage. We're going exclusive, if you will. And don't worry, it'll be lots of fun. We start with literary agent Nell Andrew and her breakdown of exactly what she tells her clients to think about when it comes to taking on plot. She knows better than most, it can be daunting at first, and there's a few technical details to master. So it'll come as no surprise that we're

dedicating two parts of this pod class to the discipline of plot. If Nell has her way, which, as I should know, she usually does on these matters, take it from me, she's impossible to say no to, there will have you feeling well equipped to structure your project by the time we've finished. And if you're not writing anything right now, but just want to behind-the-scenes glimpse of what goes into plotting your favourite books, you're in the right place. So without further ado, let's get that breakdown from now. Listeners, you are now over halfway through the series and as such in this episode we are going to help you on some of the more technical elements of your writing, which is why we're going

to be discussing plot. Usually with each episode we begin with a fun, icebreaking question, but today we thought it would be useful to begin with some more practical applications because to plot is to structure, something much more architectural. So the first thing we want to talk about is what do we mean when we say plot? There is a real difference now between plot versus premise. A premise is the landscape in which plot occur, and I think this is quite a difficulty for most authors when they're starting. The way to think about it is look at the hunger games. The premise of the hunger games is that it's set in a dystopia where children from different sections are sent to fight against each other to the death. That is the premise.

The plot is what would happen if your sister was chosen to go into this murderous landscape and you decided to take her place instead rather than letting your 12-year-old younger sister die. That is the difference. The premise is the landscape. The plot is the question, what would happen if within that landscape? Now, let's briefly describe here the key elements that a plot usually has. This isn't a hard and fast rule. it was something that was set up from Aristotle onwards. Most stories tend to contain these elements,

usually within this order, but not everyone does. So if you're finding it difficult to structure your plot, this can be quite helpful. It has signposts for when you need to move the story along. The first element is exposition. This is, who are we looking at? When is this happening? Where is this happening? Background. If you are being parachuted into a story, you're totally disoriented. The exposition is telling you where you are, who you should be looking at, and essentially what kind of world we're in. The second part is known as rising action, which leads to an inciting incident. This is the chain of events that sets the character on a journey that occurs within the story. The inciting incident is really important. The inciting incident is

basically the what would happen if question, and the rising action is the chain of events that lead to that kind of moment. The next part, which is your third part, is called climax. Now, this is usually your turning point. People tend to think that the climax is the end point, and that's something that's been used a lot in film and television, but in stories, in terms of novels, it's kind of the notion of the midway point. So it's usually where a character is led to make a choice, and then the choice that they make to go either left or right, good or bad, is what will lead them to the final part of the book, which then moves us into falling action. This is the result of the choice made in the climax. This is where the reader starts to have a sense of jeopardy about whether or not

the character is going to achieve their goals or achieve their wants and aims or whether it's just going to completely fall apart. And then that leads to your fifth and final, which is the denouement. And that is the end, which essentially is answering the question of the inciting incident. If the inciting incident is what would happen if your denouement is the answer to that particular question. Now, how you tend to get there, that's your kind of creative arc, but that's mainly sort of those elements that plot tends to have. Well, that was quite an education. I'm someone who used to be so fearful of plot that I kind of skipped over it in the rush to get into the voice of the characters. And now that I've heard now break it down in that way,

I have found it incredibly illuminating, and I actually think it will change how I write my books in future. With that in mind, it would be so helpful to hear of some of the best examples of books that have put this plot advice into action. We're going to hear from Charmaine, first of all, about a well-plotted book that she loves. So that was amazing.

What's so interesting is how we've taken a different, more serious editorial tone. And that's because you're absolutely right. You know, we've talked about character. We talked about voice. We've looked at that in detail in the previous episodes. But here is your architecture. And without the plot being in its place in the right way

and having these understandings of all of these different elements and what they bring to it, then the whole thing falls apart because otherwise you just have people chatting. and they can be interesting people but if we don't see that movement and that trajectory and that inciting incident regardless of whether it's literary or commercial then we're actually just with them say in a bar

with nothing else happening and even if that were to happen you still need a crescendo to what they're saying so you know that's why locked room dramas are really really interesting for this in terms of plot because they still have to have that inciting incident and then that jeopardy

and then all of that architectural framework that you've described. So that's just to say thank you for being so clear and brilliant because I think it's really important and I wish that when I started editing, people explained that to me in that way and you've given me lots of terms that I didn't know. So this is really helpful. In terms of books that I really love the plot of, there's a book that we're publishing actually at Dialogue by Paula Sutton. It's called The Potting Shed Murder.

And what was really interesting about reading that was just the fact that you have the plot beats that it hits at each point and how you just keep coming back to it was really compelling. And so as much as I like the character, I wanted to know what she was doing, what came next. And I realised it's been so interesting learning how sort of commercial plots have to hit that beat.

So I think Jonathan Coe, is a real master of plot, especially as he brings the political element into his state of the nation novels. And I think that's a really tricky thing to do. There's always a timeline that you're following and this sort of inciting incident around the people. And it's where the characters are intersecting

with the greater question around our nation, basically. Most of his books do this really, really well. And I think that that's really, really difficult to achieve. You're going on that journey. And then from a literary side, I think I mentioned him before, but Cormac McCarthy, like you're as intrigued by what's going to happen next, by what the characters are going to do and what they're going to say. And again, that intersection is really important. Wow. We should have a reading to the end of this. Okay. So what's your favorite plot-driven book?

Plot-driven, when I hear it, suggests there's a lot of stuff happening, right? Yeah, I So you're thinking external. But I always think plot, successful plotting, is like this kind of marriage between action and character. And even when you were marvelously, as Charmaine says, telling us the difference between plot and premise, I felt like I should be taking notes for the novel I'm writing now, by the way. The thing that struck me is that as soon as you got to plot,

you put a person in there, and then you put a relationship in there. and then there were some stakes. So the premise is just, as you say, the landscape, but for the plot to generate that magic, you have to have a person, you have to have an emotional connection, you have to have some stakes. And so for me,

plot-driven books don't work without that, no matter how kind of genre-specific they are. And some of the absolute best at doing this, I think, are the ones who've also generated the twist that everyone wants to copy. So Gone Girl, Gillian Flynn, finger smith, Sarah Wonders. I think those are marvelous examples of books

where there is a lot happening externally. It's incredibly pacey and page tourney. But page tourney is a word I've just invented. But the reason why they hold our attention, I think, is because the people are so fully developed. You know, the people are so accurately. and authentically and comprehensively realized. And then what you have is books that follow those elements that you've described,

you know, exposition, rising action to inciting incident climax. And then when you get to the climax, the rug is pulled out from onto you, and it's almost like you're starting all over again. And everything we have believed about the action up onto that point is revealed to be a kind of a lie, but in a really satisfying way. I think it's incredibly clever how that's done. But for me, it's because those books work on both levels, character, informing plot, informing character, and so on and so forth. I agree.

It's really hard to say my favourite because it just feels like I can't answer that question, but certainly one of the books that had the most impact on me in terms of story, which I reread over and over again, is The Secret History by Donna Tart. I was just about to say that book. I was just about to say, listen, Donna Tart is the queen of us. Let's make this work. The reason I will say this is because I remember where I was, I walked into Waterston's when it was on, and a book seller turned around to me and said, I envy reading that book for the first time. And I was like, sold. And I could not put it down. And I reread it constantly. And it's amazing. But one of the things I want to take away from that to help our listeners today is there's something that the main character says at the end of the prolog, which has always stuck with me. And I use it a lot when I'm editing. He says at any time in my life, that I'm, I could have had any number of stories, but now this is the only story I will ever be able

to tell. And I found that so powerful because I think when I pick up books, I'm like, okay, we as people could have any number of stories, but why am I looking at this story? Why is this? The only story this character will ever be able to tell. And to go back to like when we're talking about succession, Jesse Armstrong said, you know, they had a life before, they'll have a life after, but this is the most significant part of their stories. And so that's why I'm like, well, why is this significant? Why are we picking this up? I don't want to read a series of situations like you were saying earlier, Charmaine. That's not interesting to me. Like that's an anecdote. What I want to read is a story. And I find that people who write in genre, like historical,

crime, sci-fi, seem to be much more comfortable with the concept of story than people who believe that they're writing literary fiction. I think one of the common refrains coming from new authors who believe that they're writing in a literary landscape is that they really tend to struggle with plot. They almost equate plot with bad writing. I don't really understand it because Thomas Hardy literally invented the cliffhanger. I find that it's almost like people think to have story is bad writing. Do you know what I mean? Like, am I the only one who gets that? Yeah, it's because since we invented or discovered stream of consciousness writing, literary writers think interiority is where it's at. But I kind of take issue

with the idea that story doesn't happen in your head. I think, you know, this idea that a good literary novel is a novel where nothing happens, you know, someone's just sitting in a room kind of thinking about disconnected things. I don't think that's right. I think there are some wonderful examples of writers like Rachel Kosk or Deborah Lever, you know, they're sort of great masters of interiority and contemporary fiction now, where a lot's taking place inside someone's head, but that is the story. The plot is, how is this person reacting to the world or their own thoughts and changing as a result? Why is that any less of a plot than one where people are trying to solve a mystery or a house is haunted? I totally agree. I mean, I love Deborah Levy,

and I think her work is extraordinary. And one of the things that I love is the fact that your character is doing something or moving through the world and things do happen to them that then ignites a different way of thinking or a realisation. She also does this thing that's amazing where you can see almost the blind spots of what the character can't see in August blue. She does that beautifully and it's quite unusual. and that's also because of plot, because ultimately, as well as being inside

and being in that interior character mind, you're also on the external and you can feel yourself seeing them, the character, which means you're in the plot and you feel as though as a reader, you're part of the plot. Like, she is magnificent. I love that so much. And that's just so smart.

And so to me, that movement, like that crescendo is an imperative part of any book again which is the plot and the scaffolding it's just that it moves and it's just about different movements in the same way that with classical music it is different movements to say hip-hop which has a different movement but you're still dealing with like beats and bars

in both genres right but the beats and bars are kind of combining different narrative arcs which then reach peaks and troughs at different times. And so that's how I sort of see the difference and when I think about from the commercial lens is sort of the plotiest of plots and the hookiest of hooks. And then what I'm looking for from the more literary side is more sort of very, very, very character-driven novels

that are telling us about a world that we pertain to know about. that movement through the world is crucial to me because otherwise, again, going back to what I said earlier, it's just static. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. This is it. The day you finally ask for that big promotion. You're in front of your mirror with your Starbucks coffee.

Be confident. Assertive. Remember eye contact, but also remember to blink. Smile, but not too much. That's weird. What if you aren't any good at your job? What if they demo you instead? Okay, don't be silly.

You're smart. You're driven. You're going to be late if you keep talking to the mirror. This promotion is yours. Go get them. Starbucks. It's never just coffee. It's still shaped in this way, though, the movement through the world, even the most interior novels have to be concerned with exposition, rising action, climax, and the rest of it. It's just that those things are being used to shape the character's point of view or the musings. I think literary writers are snobs, right? It's true, though. There's this snobbishness. And I will put my hand up and say, when I came to writing, I was one of these snobs, because I thought I wanted to write a great literary novel in the tradition of Tony Moore.

By the way, Tony Morrison's books have lots of plot, lots of plots, incredibly literary. But, you know, the idea that you should stay away from plot because it was formulaic and melodramatic had certainly seeped in for me. And then what I realized is that you just trick your literary self into thinking of it not as plot, but as form. You know, it's like a sonnet. In order to write a good sonnet, you've got to stick to the form and the form is actually quite liberating. I think plot does the same thing, whether you're setting out to write commercially or a more literary thing. You've got to think of it as Charmaine says, as the scaffolding, which is going to allow what you put up to stand up and to be solid, even if it is a very sort of small. Now's foundation and then we're now building upon it, right?

Yeah, but it's really great. And I'm thinking about other people that have said great stuff about plot, then thinking about Will's story. and the science of storytelling where he talks about, you know, plot should act against the protagonist. And actually, I think that's so interesting because, again, that's all about tension, right? And it's all about building this tension.

And the tension is what keeps us coming back for more. And again, that could be in literary and commercial, it could be in a range of genres. We've got to see some like, some state, some conflict, something. Something has to be happening. whether that be interior or whether that be exterior, then we've got to see something ultimately happening that will draw us through.

Because also that is our lives, right? As human beings, stuff happens all day, every day. Stuff is happening. And we're on a trajectory of moving forward. And I'm obsessed with how people move through their worlds. And because I can't speak to everybody, I do try. But I can't always access so many people who are totally different to me because of my world is my world.

Then actually finding that through narratives is the best that I can do. And that's why we come to books. So this sort of snobbishness kind of takes away from the fact that it's the inciting incident as to why we actually are reading. I want to touch on what I said about melodrama because I do think that they're can be badly plotted books. And I think melodrama is where action is just happening to the characters. Melodram is when you literally watch a soap and you're like, how much can this person take? Like their brother went off with this person, their husband is doing off with this

person, they're pregnant by this person, they're pregnant by another person. Oh my God, there's two babies. It's that kind of like situation and that is melodrama. But drama is not the same. Drama is conflict, as we talked about, drama is stakes, drama is jeopardy. Drama is action that results from the characters. You talked a lot about beats and rhythm shah. I always say this. Your action is like a pearl necklace. The beats are the pearls, the action, and the string is the consequence. There needs to be a difference between something happens and then a consequence. And if you have too much string, then you have too much consequence and not enough happening. And if you have too much pearls shoved in together, you've got no time for the situation to land. You have no time for your

characters to react to something to feel before they move on. When things are too plotty, I'm like, Jesus Christ, can we have a breath? Can we have a moment? The breath allows you to explain what's happening. Right. Whereas the melodrama allows for the imagination to just take over and for like, shit's going down. Right, that's the melodrama. And then like, waguan here is the drama. Do you know what I mean? This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine, the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar Rally,

the ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. The more technical parts of this episode have taken us in a new and educational direction. And I think that sums up what thinking about plot can feel like when you approach it, first of all. There is a lot to learn, but coming to terms with it and bearing these pointers in mind will elevate your writing. And it will probably make you a more sophisticated reader too, because you're so aware of what is going on behind the written word on the page. With that in mind, the image of the beaded necklace feels like the right place to stop, or at least the right image to walk.

away with or to carry in your mind. It has me thinking about writing as a craft, with building blocks as those beads and core elements, the string underneath. Like the necklace, this craft underlies the artistry on show. At its best, you don't even know it's there. You can just see the beauty of the finished article. But the artistry of a completed manuscript is born out of the painstaking work of honing it. Catch us in the next episode for more on the moments where plot can fall down and a list of tips you can always have at your disposal. Plus, that all-important listener exercise.

We don't want you to go anywhere like the best plots. We've left you on a cliffhanger and we'll see you for part two. Thank you so much for listening. And please do remember to like and subscribe and share a link with everyone you know. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.